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"SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Wed 19 Dec 03:32post reply

In celebration of the two-seasons-overdue banishment of Cammy from invincible-tier/lamentation for the end of Abi-GAIIIIIL's automotive empire/bemusement over the thinking behind SFV: Ad Addition, it's a new thread!

Cheer on Fang's miraculous flight to top-tier (I hope)!

Shudder at the uncanny resemblance between Evil, Evil Rye-you and Dan!

Place wagers on whether more scrub Kages or scrub Goukis will clean you out online now!

Frown concernedly over the Capcom Cup audience's golf clap for the season 4 announcement compared with the public riot for season 3!


Useful things:

Season 4 balance patch: Japanese / English

MMCafe dojo: Come join the Cafe dojo and dominate the 5000-tier ranks (shockingly, that's top quintile)! We have the most lag but also the most continents.

CFN: Join a dojo or look at puzzling art by Kiki

SFV designer interviews: reported by Iggy, sponsored by Laura's pants window

SF II developer interviews: Japanese / English

Legend of Two P and its stunning sequel: tales of heroism from Mosquiton

Past threads:
Splendid SF lore thread
SFV thread 7
SFV thread 6
SFV thread 5
SFV thread 4
SFV thread 3
SFV thread 2
SFV thread 1





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"Re(1):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Thu 20 Dec 00:00post reply

Does anyone else here think Kage will be just another one-time fighter, like SFIV's Oni?

Oh well, at least this time Capcom introduced him completely out of the blue. It's a wiser choice than their long-term hype strategy with Decapre. It's hard to remember any other time players expressed so much disappointment than when she was revealed.

Then again, her reveal led to the Fukua joke, which led to Fukua becoming a proper character in Skullgirls with one of the best fighting game endings ever, so I guess we can say there is something good we can say about Decapre's announcement.





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"Re(2):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Thu 20 Dec 00:24post reply

quote:
Does anyone else here think Kage will be just another one-time fighter, like SFIV's Oni?

Oh well, at least this time Capcom introduced him completely out of the blue. It's a wiser choice than their long-term hype strategy with Decapre. It's hard to remember any other time players expressed so much disappointment than when she was revealed.

Then again, her reveal led to the Fukua joke, which led to Fukua becoming a proper character in Skullgirls with one of the best fighting game endings ever, so I guess we can say there is something good we can say about Decapre's announcement.



Isn't Kage just Evil Ryu with a less stupid name? I was excited for S4, specially after how great was S3 reveal, but they started with the wrong footing. With S3 it felt like Capcom would try to rebirth the game, with this announcement, it felt like Capcom is just releasing the characters to keep its promise of keeping the game afloat until 2020.

Kage killed a lot of my hype, but well, at least my boy Bison was left untouched, and it seems like Sakura and Falke are playable, so I'm gonna learn how to use them







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"Re(2):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Thu 20 Dec 01:26:post reply

quote:
Does anyone else here think Kage will be just another one-time fighter, like SFIV's Oni?



There are some differences between Oni and Kage. SFIV Oni was a "what if", a glimpse of a post-SFIII Akuma that we may never officially see. Particularly since Capcom has yet to release an SF game set after SFIII. Presumably Oni is a reference to his fate and death in Ryu Final.

While there is confusion, Kage apparently actually happens in SFV. Kage is the evil Satsui no Hado force within Ryu, which Ryu expels from himself during the cinematic story. The main confusion is over whether Kage can physically manifest, or if he is just some sort of astral force. But Kage is a separate entity who has potential to reappear in any SF game that is set after SFV.

So, at least from a story and concept level, Kage doesn't have the same limitations as Oni. Capcom could easily do Kage-based stories if they wanted.

Though the bigger SFV question might be whether any of the new SFV characters will ever appear again...


Capcom never even knew what they wanted to do with Necalli; and he is both introduced and killed off in the SFV story. Capcom doesn't seem interested in F.A.N.G either, and he is introduced and killed off. (F.A.N.G's apprentice probably has a better chance of appearing, but Capcom will probably forget about that too.)

Capcom doesn't seem to even be sure what G even is. His design is weird even by SF standards, and he's seen by some as too goofy. If he is Q, then his fate is sealed. If he's not Q, then he's fighting for a slot against Q in future games, and Q may have the edge in that battle.

Capcom is setting up Neo Shadaloo as a future story, but I could easily see them never delivering. They could just end up pulling the plug on the Neo Shadaloo experiment, instead just reviving Bison again or introducing a new villain. Heck, again Capcom doesn't even seem entirely sure what Neo Shadaloo is. They are arguably portrayed (particularly with their uniforms and names) as villains, but their stated goal seems to be just to rescue the other Bison bodies and seemingly just live their lives after? Even if they do reappear, they could just appear in non-playable form. An alternative is that, if Capcom ever does a second storyline for SFV, it could wrap up the fates of Neo Shadaloo.

Menat has a chance to reappear, just based on her popularity. But she'll be fighting against Rose for a roster spot. If Rose is never released for SFV, then Menat might not make it into the next game, and that might be enough to drop her from mind. Abigail doesn't have the popularity, but still has the presence. And he'll be somewhat fighting for a roster spot against Hugo, as well as just fighting for the already limited "big guy" spots. Zeku falls into a somewhat similar spot; he'll be competing with Guy while also competing for the limited position of stance-switch gimmick (Gen, new character).

Laura's design is far enough from the characters that she is substituting for that she doesn't have the same roster competition issues of characters like Menat. However, she still carries something of the feel of a character who was created to be a substitute for a substitute. Capcom didn't even bother to integrate her into the SFV story. (She's there, but she's been inserted into Sean's story, and then disappears until she's shown in the ending.) Laura also has a vocal base of anti-fans, while she's also fallen behind in Capcom's costume efforts. (Falke, a late Season 3 character, has as many outfits as Laura.)

Rashid copies no one. Outside of geography, he's not competing with any character for roster spots. Even from a geography standpoint, Rashid has little competition. Rashid's biggest issue may be something of an opposite of Laura...A Shadow Falls was Rashid's story, and Rashid's story was finished. This does not mean he won't return, but Capcom could as easily say that he's done.

Arguably, Kolin is a returning character, so I'm not counting her in this judgement.


So, uhm... Weighed against the other SFV newcomers, I think Kage is in the upper half of potential for a return. This skyrockets to the top if Kage is viewed as (and remains) an official replacement for Evil Ryu.





[this message was edited by Baines on Thu 20 Dec 01:32]

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"Re(3):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Thu 20 Dec 01:48post reply

quote:
Though the bigger SFV question might be whether any of the new SFV characters will ever appear again...


That's a good question. I'd say Rashid and Laura are the most likely candidates (despite Laura's anti-fans, she's considerably used by experienced players and is probably the biggest source of SFV cosplays). Ed may have a chance as well, and G's mysterious background can either turn him into a major figure in the plot for an eventual SFVI, or cause him to be forgotten by then.





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"Re(4):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Thu 20 Dec 02:30post reply

SFVI: Fang's Revenge is going to be great. Rashid and Laura are marvelous additions who, like Fang, match the SFII style and have a lot of personality...but did any of them get their own side-story on CFN~~? Maybe Fang and Phantom can appear as a funky poison Chinese tag-team, like a more interesting Yun and Yang. I look forward to Ed getting possessed by Dictator's ghost and promptly disappearing from all future material.

Speaking of ghosts, Kage may be kind of an uninspiringly conventional "cool" character like Gouki, but he does give Capcom a second chance at the wandering evil spirit character after the Necalli disaster, and can actually be used in the main story. (Technically, Hadou-of-Murderous-Intent-Ryu wasn't just a what-if character in that he existed for the brief moment when Ryu beat Sagat in SF1, and I guess in various parts of SF Zero 2/3?)

It would be interesting to see a character popularity poll now, and if viability in-game affects it. Has Juri continued to suck so much in SFV, even after this new patch, that people don't care about her anymore? Are there people who like Ed? I also wonder if English-speaking fans can like Abigail as much without his perfect Hokuto No Ken voice.





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"Re(5):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Thu 20 Dec 10:09post reply

Although season 4 is so confusing that I don't even know if it's underway I'm still enjoying the current crop of changes. I've even been taking Sagat online quite a bit. They must have given him some improvements since now instead of being completely terrible with him I'm only mostly terrible.

SF5 Survivor: If I had to guess on who will stick around the obvious answer is Menat. She plays in a way that is totally different from Rose or anyone else in SF. (As I've said before, Menat is the ship from R-Type.) But more importantly, Menat developed a fan following the moment she came on the scene. As has been dramatically proven, characters aren't just functions in a game. Personality goes a long way and in this case it's leading Menat into a permanent place in the roster. As for Rashid, I see the poor guy going down the same path as Alex. He's going to have a following but he's never going to work quite right outside of his home game engine.

Shadow the Edgehog: I find myself quite liking Kage's Story and Battle costumes. Admitting that may have cost me my credibility but since I never had cred that's not much of a loss. Those pseudo-mythological outfits are better than still better than Akuma's redesign at least.







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"No Season 4 Season Pass" , posted Thu 20 Dec 11:12post reply

Capcom has now Tweeted that they have no current plans for a Season Pass for the Season 4 characters.

Capcom is still being vague on the number of characters that will be released in 2019, though the announcement did at least say "2019 DLC characters", implying that Kage isn't the final character.

This, of course, hasn't really done that much to reassure people. Dropping the Season Pass has probably also cost Capcom money, which implies they either don't understand their customers or that they had a compelling reason to either not reveal the number of characters they have planned or to not commit to deliver a certain number of characters.





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"Re(6):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Thu 20 Dec 22:28post reply

quote:
SF5 Survivor: If I had to guess on who will stick around the obvious answer is Menat. She plays in a way that is totally different from Rose or anyone else in SF. (As I've said before, Menat is the ship from R-Type.) But more importantly, Menat developed a fan following the moment she came on the scene. As has been dramatically proven, characters aren't just functions in a game. Personality goes a long way and in this case it's leading Menat into a permanent place in the roster. As for Rashid, I see the poor guy going down the same path as Alex. He's going to have a following but he's never going to work quite right outside of his home game engine.



You have a point.

That said, I still think SFV's newcomers have a brighter future than the SFIV's ones.





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"Re(7):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Thu 20 Dec 23:17:post reply

quote:
That said, I still think SFV's newcomers have a brighter future than the SFIV's ones.



Juri made it into SFV.

Capcom had big plans for Decapre. That should speak well for her future, except we come back to Capcom killing those plans. Thinking about it, I wonder if SFV was planned to retire Cammy in favor of Decapre? With Dictator's defeat and the rescue of the Dolls, Cammy's main purpose is complete. Not that fans would have let Capcom retire Cammy.

People have been requesting and expecting Crimson Viper's return. Mind, the same is true for Gouken, though the expectation for his return is built more on Capcom's undying love of shotos.

Even if he shouldn't be in a Street Fighter game story-wise, just being a more powerful Akuma is enough reason for Capcom to bring him back anyway. I don't expect Capcom to put Oni in SFV, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did, just to match Kage.

Rufus was a bad joke. SFV replaced him with Birdie. Unless Birdie goes on a diet, Rufus would be fighting Birdie for any future character slots.

Capcom wants to remembers Abel exists; that's already better than Necalli.

Most people wouldn't care if Seth didn't exist.

El Fuerte never should have existed.

EDIT: I forgot Hakan. That doesn't diminish his return chances. What does diminish his return chances is the existence of Zangief, and the limited roster space given to grapplers in general. In a vacuum, he'd be a viable returning character.


So SF4 has one character that has actually returned (Juri), one character that was going to return but could potentially be in trouble(Decapre), one character arguably ripe for return(C.Viper), two characters that might return because shotos (Gouken, Oni), one character that probably won't return but wouldn't upset people if he did (Abel), and three characters that no one really expects to return but you never know with Capcom... (Rufus, Seth, El Fuerte). EDIT: And a viable character who probably won't return because his archetype matches an SF2 alum and gets limited presence, though he might sneak in as a later year DLC character. (Hakan)

More so than Kolin being a special case with SFV, Poison is a special case with SFIV. She had not previously been in a "regular" Street Fighter game, but she was on the "Street Fighter" roster of SFxT, so it could be argued whether or not she is an SFIV newcomer. I argue not.

EDIT reason: Added Hakan.





[this message was edited by Baines on Thu 20 Dec 23:28]

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"Re(8):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Thu 20 Dec 23:19:post reply

You forgot Hakan...

EDIT:

quote:
EDIT: And a viable character who probably won't return because his archetype matches an SF2 alum and gets limited presence, though he might sneak in as a later year DLC character. (Hakan)


Oh boy, I hope you're right. Hakan was awesome!

(though Capcom could tone down the strangeness in his appearance just a little bit...)





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"Re(9):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Thu 20 Dec 23:43post reply

quote:
You forgot Hakan...



Okay, Hakan is added. Funny that I remember Hakan with my SFV breakdown, when talking about Rashid, but forgot him for his actual game. I ended up mistaking him for Darun Mister.


On a note related to the future potential of SFIV and SFV characters, there was an interesting subject raised on the SRK forums not too long ago, debating the "goofiness" that was introduced into Street Fighter. And it reflects in the viability of the return of new characters designed for those characters.

Characters like Rufus and El Fuerte would only be created for Street Fighter IV. Capcom might have been willing to create a fat-but-nimble martial artist in another Street Fighter, but it wouldn't have resulted in Rufus, because Rufus is a product of SF4's exaggerated joke style. The same is true for the cooking-focused El Fuerte.

The thing I don't really get is how some people treat Street Fighter Alpha as part of the "good" "serious" era that was damaged by SF3 and ruined by SF4-5. Alpha is where Street Fighter design completely went off the rails. Though SF4 was still "goofy" in a different, worse way.







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"Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: anti-Cammy edition" , posted Fri 21 Dec 02:06:post reply

The astoundingly bad roll-out of season 4 is a pretty great lesson in being straight with your information, however much you have. I wonder if people would be as annoyed if Capcom would clearly say that they won't have a season pass but will have something (anything!). But in the meantime, the anti-Cammy patch is great, and Kage is inoffensive and has a lot of weight on his oni shoulders!

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quote:
debating the "goofiness" that was introduced into Street Fighter.
some people treat Street Fighter Alpha as part of the "good" "serious" era that was damaged by SF3 and ruined by SF4-5.
Hmm, this is not an interpretation I've heard before. I think the biggest design vectors you find in Street Fighter are the ebb and flow of characters clearly representing a nation/fighting style, and who the lead animators/illustrators were. I wonder if people were talking about "goofy" in terms of core character designs or visual direction. SFII and Zero are similarly "serious" only in that their rosters are the same crowd of national archetypes (plus Final Fight), but Zero's animation and visual direction are wildly different, both due to technical advances and to a conscious move to make the in-game design more anime-styled.

By goofy they probably mean the core character designs, like how SFIII went for this roster of mostly nationless freaks. But that's very different from SFIV's reversion to SFII/Zero's core roster of national characters who just happen to be drawn in-game using this (hideous) American cartoony style. Sure, El Fuerte and Rufus suck (who's Abel?), but it's the in-game graphic style that differentiates this game from SFII rather than any change to 95% of the character roster. Though like Baines says, Rufus is a strange character who feels like more a creature of the visual direction (American cartoons) than a match for the mostly SFII character designs.

SFV is...interesting. There's a whole lot of character design and visual logics from the series' history in here. Because there isn't this strong single design line, it feels like anyone could fit into SFV, for better or for worse. When it's successful, it mixes the SFII/Zero and III core character design styles, with strong national characters (Laura, Rashid, Fang) and clever freaks (G). But its indistinct/inconsistent visual direction is a puzzle. The slighly less anime-style look reminds me of SFII, but the character animations are very colorful in the best traditions of Zero and SFIII.





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"Re(8):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Fri 21 Dec 03:31post reply

quote:
Capcom had big plans for Decapre. That should speak well for her future, except we come back to Capcom killing those plans. Thinking about it, I wonder if SFV was planned to retire Cammy in favor of Decapre? With Dictator's defeat and the rescue of the Dolls, Cammy's main purpose is complete. Not that fans would have let Capcom retire Cammy.

The original plan was to have Decapre in SF5's starting roster and no Cammy.
They were so deep inside their own arses that they thought, as a sneak peak, they could add Decapre to USF4 in order to drum up hype. Unfortunately, they did it in the worst possible way, and instead of understanding the problem was the way they handled the message, they decided it could only mean people hated Decapre and they scraped the entire plan.

Capcom, you are so hard to love sometimes.

quote:
Alpha is where Street Fighter design completely went off the rails.

I had to take a double take on this. We are talking about character designs, not art style, right?
Have you played a game called "Street Fighter 2", by any chance?







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"Re(2):Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: anti-Cammy ed" , posted Fri 21 Dec 04:10post reply

quote:
By goofy they probably mean the core character designs, like how SFIII went for this roster of mostly nationless freaks. But that's very different from SFIV's reversion to SFII/Zero's core roster of national characters who just happen to be drawn in-game using this (hideous) American cartoony style.


I view it as a nebulous mix of presentation, art style, characterization, story, new character design...

Street Fighter 1 was a "serious" martial arts fighter. There were no joke characters, either visually or in moveset. While the characters might have been stereotypes, they weren't treated as gags (other than possibly Birdie.) While there wasn't much of a story, there were no joke endings or character goals.

Street Fighter II's graphics were more colorfully cartoonish, but the characters were still treated fairly seriously. A character like Dhalsim is outlandish, but he still fits in a "real" fantasy martial arts setting. The character defeat portraits can get a bit silly, but they still mostly show people who have received brutal beatings. The random vomiting was itself silly, but it wasn't presented in a silly way; it again was a marker for just how brutal the fighting was. Some of the moves looked silly (Honda rocketing straight across the screen), but they didn't really feel like they outright designed as jokes. The game wasn't stoically serious, there were bits of lightheartedness light Zangief dancing with Gorbachev and Blanka reuniting with his mother, but that was outside the fighting.

Super Street Fighter II added T. Hawk and Deejay.

Street Fighter III had a mix of serious and silly. Characters like Ibuki, Alex, and Makoto were relatively "serious". Sean was arguably a "serious" version of Dan or Sakura. But on the other end of the scale you had the weirdly drawn, scaled and animated Hugo. You had a clumsy robot/cyborg in a trench coat. Where Street Fighter II introduced the relatively grounded limb-stretching Dhalsim, Street Fighter III introduced inhuman rubber-man Necro. You had Gill, with one half of his body being blue and the other half red. You had Urien ripping off his suit to fight.

Street Fighter IV embraced goofiness, both visually and in character design. Again, Rufus and El Fuerte. SFIII Hugo would fit in SFIV, but SFIV Rufus would conceptually be a rough fit in SFIII. Even Angelina Jolie fighting with her James Bond gadgets. And Seth.


Yes, I skipped over the Alpha series. There is so much I could say about the Alpha series. Alpha is where Street Fighter became a comic book, in graphics, in characters, and even in story. Characters sprites were done in exaggerated anime style. Karin was created in a manga? The story became a convoluted mess. Blanka was turned into a goofball character. Dan was created as a joke, and only devolved over time. While SFII tried to make it look like the dedicated Chun-Li was a viable opponent for someone like Zangief (and SFIII treated Makoto seriously enough while Ibuki had her ninja tricks), SFA just threw in a random schoolgirl that copied Ryu's moves. People might complain about the fourth-wall breaking nature of SFV Abigail's Critical Art, but SFA long before had one of Rolento's underlings appearing from the ceiling with a hook for his Super. While both SF1 and SF2 had characters that fought with weapons, SFA had Rolento blowing people up with hand grenades. (And bouncing on his staff like it was a pogo stick.)

I was going to complain about SFA Mika. It is so easy to complain about SFA Mika, who is often criticized for being such a silly character design. But, honestly, looking at her SFA3 moves again, she's not actually that bad... except for having a full-size wrestling ring magically sliding into and out of the stage for her intro and even multiple moves! As silly as wall bounces are when you think about their realities, they still don't stand out like having a massive metal, canvas, and plywood construction slide in from off-screen just so Mika can bounce off it, then sliding out immediately after.







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"Re(2):Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: anti-Cammy ed" , posted Fri 21 Dec 05:50post reply

The fact that season 4 is dedicated to telling Cammy to go pound sand is really winning me over after the terrible start.

quote:
The astoundingly bad roll-out of season 4 is a pretty great lesson in being straight with your information, however much you have. I wonder if people would be as annoyed if Capcom would clearly say that they won't have a season pass but will have something (anything!). But in the meantime, the anti-Cammy patch is great, and Kage is inoffensive and has a lot of weight on his oni shoulders!


I'm not even certain that Capcom knows how many characters they are going to have this season. But if they had simply told us that at the beginning all this mess could have been avoided. Players understand that SF5 is going to start winding down and that resources are going toward DMC5 and other new projects. If they had been open about this most people would have understood. But it wouldn't have been Capcom if they hadn't created an easily avoidable mess. Ah, Capcom!





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"Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edition" , posted Fri 21 Dec 12:24post reply

quote:

Characters like Rufus and El Fuerte would only be created for Street Fighter IV. Capcom might have been willing to create a fat-but-nimble martial artist in another Street Fighter, but it wouldn't have resulted in Rufus, because Rufus is a product of SF4's exaggerated joke style. The same is true for the cooking-focused El Fuerte.


My personal two cents, I think Street Fighter's transition to the modern 3D generation is one of the culprits that's making things look more goofy. If Rufus or Furte appeared in the sprite game generation or PS1 polygon quality generation, it's probably more likely that they would've fitted in more naturally.

It's the same with many of the NPCs in SFV's backgrounds. Some of their goofy actions would've looked fine in 2D graphics, but having them in realistic 3D just doesn't have the same charm. For example, the wizard and Ninjas fighting in the Shadoloo stage background. They look so bad in SFV especially with their unnaturally smooth, tweened movement. But if it were in 2D graphics, they probably would've looked fine. They probably would've also looked fine if they were rendered in limited animation like ArcSys does with their games.

quote:
The thing I don't really get is how some people treat Street Fighter Alpha as part of the "good" "serious" era that was damaged by SF3 and ruined by SF4-5. Alpha is where Street Fighter design completely went off the rails. Though SF4 was still "goofy" in a different, worse way.


I'm not sure how anyone would treat SF3 as a 'not-serious' game. Its graphics leans more towards the so-and-so called 'Gekiga' art style similar to that of SF2.

When it comes to the old Street Fighter games, it's pretty easy to understand why the games were designed in the direction they were. SFII came out around the "hardcore" pro-wrestling period of the early 1990s in Japan when the FMW and other indies took over the business and introduced the crazy stuff like exploding barbed wires and ring-out landmines which lead to the wrestlers fighting in their own bloodbath. SFIII came around when PRIDE introduced MMA to Japan, although I question whether that had much to do with the game's direction; it was probably moreso that the devs wanted to inherit the SF2 feel. SFA on the other hand just went its own route and followed the anime-manga mediamix period of its time.





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"Re(2):Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edit" , posted Sat 22 Dec 04:10post reply

quote:

Characters like Rufus and El Fuerte would only be created for Street Fighter IV. Capcom might have been willing to create a fat-but-nimble martial artist in another Street Fighter, but it wouldn't have resulted in Rufus, because Rufus is a product of SF4's exaggerated joke style. The same is true for the cooking-focused El Fuerte.

My personal two cents, I think Street Fighter's transition to the modern 3D generation is one of the culprits that's making things look more goofy. If Rufus or Furte appeared in the sprite game generation or PS1 polygon quality generation, it's probably more likely that they would've fitted in more naturally.

It's the same with many of the NPCs in SFV's backgrounds. Some of their goofy actions would've looked fine in 2D graphics, but having them in realistic 3D just doesn't have the same charm. For example, the wizard and Ninjas fighting in the Shadoloo stage background. They look so bad in SFV especially with their unnaturally smooth, tweened movement. But if it were in 2D graphics, they probably would've looked fine. They probably would've also looked fine if they were rendered in limited animation like ArcSys does with their games.

The thing I don't really get is how some people treat Street Fighter Alpha as part of the "good" "serious" era that was damaged by SF3 and ruined by SF4-5. Alpha is where Street Fighter design completely went off the rails. Though SF4 was still "goofy" in a different, worse way.

I'

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


Wow, didn't know than companies like FMW had a big influence in Street Fighter designs. How big where those indies back then? I have always been shocked by seeing companies like FMW, UWF or SWS selling out baseball stadiums, specially considering that they were way smaller than AJPW and NJPW, I always wanted to know how mainstream was wrestling at the beginning of the 90's.

I personally think than most of the designs in SFIV and SFV are too ridiculous/dated/generic to use them in the future, the only ones who have a future are c.viper, juri, laura, rashid, menat and maybe G

Ed and Falke are SF1 tier of dullness, which it sucks, since I love the idea of a Dictator clone who was educated by Boxer and where they actually have a father and son relationship, and I love how sexy Falke is, but she is boring, their designs don't tell anything about their personalities, which is a big contrast to the redesigns that most of the old cast got in SFV, which actually added more personality to them







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"Re(3):Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: Season 4 Edit" , posted Mon 24 Dec 01:31post reply

All this talk about serious and comedic characters and it turns out the only joke character is Kage. For a character who claims to be a nihilistic weapon of destruction Kage talks with the snarling vocabulary of a kid who just discovered loud music. In spite of all his efforts to present himself as the physical manifestation of evil Kage comes across as the remnants of Ryu's teenage angst. Small wonder all the other characters dismiss him in their win quotes or laugh the guy out of existence in Kage's story mode. SF5 has a melancholy streak running through it and that inherent sadness of being comes up once again in Kage. The game acknowledges that Kage is part of a storyline that concluded long ago and only exists to fulfill a style of gameplay. Renaming him as Kage is appropriate since he only exists as a shadow of what came before.

All that said, he's sort of fun to play. Trying to play the neutral with his itty-bitty fireballs is a silly way to spend the match. It feels as if every one of his moves isn't built to be practical but rather designed to be part of some absurd combo.







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"Re(3):Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: anti-Cammy ed" , posted Tue 25 Dec 01:57post reply

quote:
Alpha


I've always thought of Zero as the series where Capcom literally ran out of ideas but needed something quick to cash in on SF2 while they still could. It borrowed heavily from the animated SF2 movie, from various SF2 manga, dipped into FF and SF1 for more characters, borrowed from SNK, added Lisa Lisa, and later borrowed again from more manga based on SFZ because why not.

I also still fully believe it was never meant to be canon, which is another reason why it did all of these things, using gag scenarios as well as killing off characters and never committing to it, but then when it was all said and done at some point they had to take it seriously. Because they took so long with SF3 that this whole goofy mess became the real SF3 and SF3 itself was so avant-garde that it took years to catch on.







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"Re(4):Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: anti-Cammy ed" , posted Tue 25 Dec 04:46:post reply

quote:

I've always thought of Zero as the series where Capcom literally ran out of ideas but needed something quick to cash in on SF2 while they still could. It borrowed heavily from the animated SF2 movie, from various SF2 manga, dipped into FF and SF1 for more characters, borrowed from SNK, added Lisa Lisa, and later borrowed again from more manga based on SFZ because why not.



I want to recall reading that the whole reason behind Street Fighter Alpha's creation was that Capcom wanted to get rid of an excess stock of outdated arcade boards, and simultaneously wanted a new Street Fighter game that could be easily ported to the SNES (since SF3 wouldn't). However, Capcom put a person in charge who saw what was effectively a throwaway project as his chance to make the best SF game that he could make, and SFA blew up into what it became.

However, I can't find the link to the article/interview anymore. Google search is really bad at finding older articles when newer ones matching the same search terms exist, and emulator sites, wikis, and 30th Anniversary articles dominate results. I don't believe the article was some fantasy though...


EDIT: Continued searching found not the article I remember reading, but a similar post here where Iggy posted a similar CFN article (English CFN version here).
quote:

- Well, we were right at the boom of the Super Famicon, so the project started with the aim of being adapted to SFC after the arcade version was released. BENGUS had drawn some characters of SF1, and they thought about doing a game on this period. One experienced employee created the story, Funamizu over-watched the whole project... but they needed a planner. So they came to me, a random guy who had been there for 1 year, and offered me the position.
I knew nothing! I was just a guy who liked to play fighting games, not how to make them! So of course I said "yes". The game became Street Fighter Zero.
* SF3 was already being worked on by the "real" ace team, so they didn't have enough people experienced for the cheap spin-off and they ended up hiring inexperienced newcomers. The CPS2 had been released, but there was still a stock of CPS1. So we were told to create that game to get rid of that stock. Wait, you can't write that!
- Too late, I already wrote that in Akiman's interview.
* In the end, SFZ was such a hit it was moved to CPS2, and then used to sell the stocks of CPS2 (because of the way the rentals of CPS2 boards worked). As the game was created with the SFC in mind, the port was not too difficult, but they had to create a hybrid program to work on both CPS1 and 2. And since the game ended up a success, they created a rental version, which postponed the "cleaning the stock of CPS2" task (and thus created the need for a Zero 2).
*At the time, SF3 was already being developed on CPS3, so Zero effectively extended the CPS2's life, which should have ended much quicker.







[this message was edited by Baines on Tue 25 Dec 04:56]



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"Re(5):Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: anti-Cammy ed" , posted Thu 27 Dec 01:37post reply

Whether it's budding filmmakers or fighting games, sometimes it takes a scrappy, passionate beginner rather than a seasoned professional to (accidentally) create something great! I knew SFII growing up of course but the in-game art didn't appeal to me, and I also remember later seeing SFIII's characters previewed in magazines and thinking, "What the hell is this?", but it was walking by a Zero 2 cabinet with its vibrant anime art that made me stop in my tracks and decide I AM GOING TO START PLAYING FIGHTING GAMES NOW.

Meanwhile, Ishmael's Kage report is hilarious and makes him sound like the perfect match for the angsty Shounen Jump-reading teens who love him! I like his goofy fangs (but I like goofy Fang more) and propose a lagfest ASAP.





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"Re(6):Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: anti-Cammy ed" , posted Thu 27 Dec 07:31post reply

quote:
propose a lagfest ASAP.

Very true, we need to have a Season 4 Memorial Lagfest at the earliest opportunity.







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"Re(6):Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: anti-Cammy ed" , posted Thu 27 Dec 11:54post reply

quote:
Meanwhile, Ishmael's Kage report is hilarious and makes him sound like the perfect match for the angsty Shounen Jump-reading teens who love him! I like his goofy fangs (but I like goofy Fang more) and propose a lagfest ASAP.



Gameplay-wise, Kage at least feels like he has a reason to exist. He's not Evil Ryu (or Akuma), Ryu-but-better. He's got a lot of the Evil Ryu extras, but he takes potentially big loss with his regular fireballs being point-blank affairs. He can still do full-screen red fireballs, but those are slow enough that he can't abuse them.

Still, he needs a Dan alternate appearance. It is hard to see him as anything other than Evil Dan.





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"Re(7):Re(10):SFV Thread Part 8: anti-Cammy ed" , posted Thu 27 Dec 12:51:post reply

quote:
propose a lagfest ASAP.
Very true, we need to have a Season 4 Memorial Lagfest at the earliest opportunity.





I'm good on that too




Sibarraz--

Sorry for the late reply! Regarding indies wrestling organizations, it's hard to say whether they can be considered big or small, but in the context of wrestling history, they weren't as big as in the 1970s. But they were still big enough, at least up until the mid-90s when the MMA fad took over.

Wrestling in Japan was at its peak during post-war period in the 50-60s and became the main crowd puller for black & white TVs which were quite expensive at its time. The 70s and 80s were the golden days of Giant Buba and Antonio Inoki and westling was still pretty popular, and mangas like Muscle (Kinniku Man) came around. After Buba and Inoki were gone and wrestling lost its main faces, the the new wave of westling organizations like FMW came in. These new wrestling organizations were all about death matches and they were pretty bloody so they weren't airing at prime-time when families had dinner and watched TV-- they had the midnight slots, which I believe hurt them pretty badly. Keep in mind that this was at a time when TVs were still bulky and households usually had just one TV in the living room where everyone gathered. The wrestling viewers downsized, especially after K-1 and MMA/Pride started running on prime-time. Wrestling still filled the seats at arenas, but with the lack of publicity from TV, they kind of became like more of an alternate-fad or sub-culture.

I recall as a kid remembering how wrestling suddenly seemed to have disappeared all of a sudden and because I was young, I had no clue they were running at midnight. It was when I checked out magazines at a bookstore that I realized that wrestling took a curve to the bloody side but it was still alive. I think that must've been around the early period of FMW, because a year or so later, Onita Atsushi started appearing on shows and even documentaries on prime-time, and I finally got to see him getting bloody from death matches.

So overall, I'd say that wrestling was still around in the early 90s but it was hurt by not being on prime-time leave aside some quick glimpses when a show or documentary would pick them up, and the nail in the coffin was the MMA fad sweeping in the mid-90s.

Rather than to single out Street Fighter, there's no question that the wrestling and MMA fad around the period had influences to fighting games of the time in general.





[this message was edited by Professor on Thu 27 Dec 13:46]



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"Lagfest today" , posted Fri 28 Dec 23:49post reply

Get ready, fighters! Itís:

SFV Season 4 Lagfest: Evil Dan Edition
Time: Dec 28 10:30pm EST / Dec 29 12:30pm JST

Will Prof and I see you there?





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"Re(1):Lagfest today" , posted Sat 29 Dec 02:26post reply

quote:
Get ready, fighters! Itís:

SFV Season 4 Lagfest: Evil Dan Edition
Time: Dec 28 10:30pm EST / Dec 29 12:30pm JST

Will Prof and I see you there?



Speaking of Lag, I don't know why people shit so much on this game for having a bad netcode, it must be by far one of the most stable experiences that I had ever played in the genre, and even though I only play against people with 4 bars or better, I still get to play a lot of matches.

Comparing this with Tekken and Soul Calibur is day and night, specially with the later where I can't find matches constantly and even at 4 bars I still feel a bit of lag





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"Re(2):Lagfest today" , posted Sat 29 Dec 02:33post reply

quote:
Get ready, fighters! Itís:

SFV Season 4 Lagfest: Evil Dan Edition
Time: Dec 28 10:30pm EST / Dec 29 12:30pm JST

Will Prof and I see you there?


Speaking of Lag, I don't know why people shit so much on this game for having a bad netcode, it must be by far one of the most stable experiences that I had ever played in the genre, and even though I only play against people with 4 bars or better, I still get to play a lot of matches.

Comparing this with Tekken and Soul Calibur is day and night, specially with the later where I can't find matches constantly and even at 4 bars I still feel a bit of lag



I would like to join a lagfest today but I do not have SFV. Can play any other FG if anyone wants to.





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"Re(2):Lagfest today" , posted Sat 29 Dec 07:47post reply

quote:
Get ready, fighters! Itís:

SFV Season 4 Lagfest: Evil Dan Edition
Time: Dec 28 10:30pm EST / Dec 29 12:30pm JST

Will Prof and I see you there?


I have a busy day tomorrow so, no, Iím afraid I have to go to bed like the boring adult I pretend to be.
quote:

Comparing this with Tekken and Soul Calibur is day and night, specially with the later where I can't find matches constantly and even at 4 bars I still feel a bit of lag

Iím not online as much as others when it comes to these games but I never felt that SF5 was any better or worse than other fighters. At least I can find matches unlike poor SC6.







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"Re(3):Lagfest today" , posted Sat 29 Dec 12:01post reply

quote:
Iím not online as much as others when it comes to these games but I never felt that SF5 was any better or worse than other fighters. At least I can find matches unlike poor SC6.



As much as console players think PC players are all dirty cheaters and PC players think console players are all dirty cheaters, crossplay really helps everyone.







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"Re(3):Lagfest soon" , posted Sat 29 Dec 15:16post reply

quote:
I have a busy day tomorrow so, no, Iím afraid I have to go to bed like the boring adult I pretend to be.

No problem! Next weekend? This reminds me: twitter may be pretty awful, but if you have or make an account just for the Cafe, you can join our inane chats while we play. Professor's match-appropriate collection of funny jpegs is pretty stellar.

Anyway, Baines is right that in the world of lag, we should still be grateful for small gifts like crossplay! This may be one of the few SFV decisions Capcom got right from the start.





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"Re(4):Lagfest soon" , posted Sun 30 Dec 21:47post reply

quote:

No problem! Next weekend? This reminds me: twitter may be pretty awful, but if you have or make an account just for the Cafe, you can join our inane chats while we play. Professor's match-appropriate collection of funny jpegs is pretty stellar.

Anyway, Baines is right that in the world of lag, we should still be grateful for small gifts like crossplay! This may be one of the few SFV decisions Capcom got right from the start.


My schedule has been erratic lately but I should be around for the latter part of the weekend.

Yes, yes, you're right, I should set up a twitter account so I can participate in the proper chat. There's really no excuse for my slothful ways. Hmm, constantly turning to my phone to play a game; it's like SF5 is on the Switch!







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"Re(5):Ishmael-fest soon (vote now)" , posted Thu 3 Jan 11:19post reply

Let's ring in the new year with our fists! Ishamel and others, what do you think about a late weekend lagfest? Prof mentioned that Sunday (US time) just miiight work, so what do mornings and evenings look like? I can host if there's a time everyone likes!





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"Re(6):Ishmael-fest soon (vote now)" , posted Thu 3 Jan 12:52post reply

quote:
Let's ring in the new year with our fists! Ishamel and others, what do you think about a late weekend lagfest? Prof mentioned that Sunday (US time) just miiight work, so what do mornings and evenings look like? I can host if there's a time everyone likes!



I should be able to get on I think!
Go for broke!







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"Re(6):Ishmael-fest soon (vote now)" , posted Thu 3 Jan 13:57post reply

quote:
Let's ring in the new year with our fists! Ishamel and others, what do you think about a late weekend lagfest? Prof mentioned that Sunday (US time) just miiight work, so what do mornings and evenings look like? I can host if there's a time everyone likes!



I have escaped from this many-headed thing called "family" and returned to my regularly scheduled solitude, so I should be able to make an appearance.







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"Re(7):Ishmael-fest soon (vote now)" , posted Fri 4 Jan 00:47post reply

Sunday morning US time would work just fine for me! I even set up a Twitter account so I can send twits and read twitting comments just like the with-it people do.







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"Re(8):Ishmael-fest soon (vote now)" , posted Fri 4 Jan 01:36post reply

BRILLIANT

We'll be balancing between an early morning for Gojira and a late night for Prof, so what do people think about starting at 10:00am EST Sun/ 7:00am PST Sun/ 12:00am JST Sun-Mon? I can go earlier or later since I'm right in between!

Ishmael, Twitter is for criminals and you must avoid using it for anything but lagfests or reading Nobi's threads, but if you find Prof or @zonepharaoh we will add you to the top-secret trash talk/gif threads during the match.





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"Re(9):Ishmael-fest soon (vote now)" , posted Fri 4 Jan 09:48post reply

For once it's fine; I've been meaning to get up earlier anyway since my job this year is going to skew towards the morning hours.

(Whether or not I can actually drag myself out of bed is another thing, though...)





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"Re(9):Ishmael-fest soon (vote now)" , posted Sat 5 Jan 10:04post reply

Midnight on my side sounds doable!







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"Re: lagfest fashion show" , posted Mon 7 Jan 14:52post reply

Following Lagfest: Evil Dan Edition, the MMCafe dojo surged improbably to the top 15% due to the burning intensity (!?!?) of its members, or maybe because of that nice stegosaurus skeleton in the dojo. (Wanted: Spoon and Baines (and you!)...so sez President G.) Who cares if cancels don't work at 75% speed when we achieved three continents, five time zones, and the most fashionable group of world warriors? Report from the catwalk:

The appearance of Mecha Juri knocked Sakura's hateful tights clean off, but I was most surprised to see Kage become an actual shadow and literally disappear via glitch when beaten. My heart also soared as Mecha Fang and his new abilities took flight even if he still couldn't quite beat whoever that was from SFIII.

Things also got pretty steamy with the King of Muay Thai and Hot Cody, but just like it's scandalous when Cammy actually wears pants, I was shocked (shocked!) when Sagat put on shoes! In a similar vein, Gojira wins description of the day for Boxer vs. Boxers, while some of us have to make do with mods and flower kicks.

Deep into the realm of cosplay, Morrigan and Kyousuke reminded me painfully of a better era, while the one true president looks sharp as a historical reenactor.

I was also astounded to learn there is a character called Falke!





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"Re(1):Re: lagfest fashion show" , posted Mon 7 Jan 23:58post reply

Good games everyone! It was great fun. Thanks also to Maou for the summary. The incredibly awkward pose of Mech Juri perfectly captures the stuttery, useless manner in which I play her.

quote:
Following Lagfest: Evil Dan Edition, the MMCafe dojo surged improbably to the top 15% due to the burning intensity (!?!?) of its members, or maybe because of that nice stegosaurus skeleton in the dojo. (Wanted: Spoon and Baines (and you!)...so sez President G.) Who cares if cancels don't work at 75% speed when we achieved three continents, five time zones, and the most fashionable group of world warriors? Report from the catwalk:

I'm too lazy to learn how the dojo system operates so this may be obvious but how on earth does the ranking system work? Are we getting points for playing each other? Playing others? Simply turning on the game? Bribes to the correct officials? Whatever it is, I'm glad to see we are, in spite of our best efforts, doing well.







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"Re(2):Re: lagfest fashion show" , posted Tue 8 Jan 17:58:post reply

I really want to join these lagfests, as soon as my games make their way to my new apartment. Moving is a busy exercise. I even bought Character Creator 2018!

Edit: Annnnnd I was finally able to view the pictures. Man I miss Darkstalkers. That is all.





[this message was edited by KTallguy on Tue 8 Jan 18:28]

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"Mech Abigail, Kage and Fight Money ranting" , posted Sat 19 Jan 01:07post reply

Mech Abigail has to be my favorite costume in Street Fighter V, bar none. If it was toy in the 80s/90s I would have loved to have it(hell, I would love to have it now). I love all the small details of how the chest and arms expand in V Trigger. If Tekken x Street Fighter ever gets off the ground I want a tag team of Gun Jack and Mech Abigail to main.

Kage is much more unique than I thought he would be, but as Ismael said, his personality is laughably simplistic. It is disappointing to not know if there will be a full season this year and who we can expect. Especially after how great the season 3 reveal was.

We are on our 4th or 5th week of pitiful Fight Money rewards in missions and extra battle and the reality has finally set in that I have probably earned 99% of all the possible Fight Money I will get unless I grind Extreme Survival with 16 characters which is a mild 80000FM. When Street Fighter V first came out Fight Money was pretty generous. A lot of it was locked behind survival, but you would get extra for watching the regular demonstrations, playing the general story on normal and hard and bonuses for completing character story and survival. When Arcade Edition came out the bonuses were cut, but the missions were fair for a weekly thing to do.

Now the fight money system is just an insult. I think every week since the change has been about 1000 FM max. That is not even enough to cover the Extra Costume fights of that week. Leveling a character through all the single player content will get you to around level 29, which is 29000 FM. That isn't even enough to buy their story mode costume! Thankfully I have about 350K saved up on my main account for small things like Extra Battle costumes or to play Fighting Chance for a nostalgia costume or to try and get some EX colors.

I can understand the reasoning behind the changes. They want to drain player's FM ASAP so they start spending real money to get stuff, but the entire FM economy is broken. Let's go back to Story Mode costumes. Those are 40K FM. Even back when the game launched that is a lot of FM for a costume. You can get those extra battle costumes for as little as 10K FM if you don't mess up. By and large, those fights aren't that hard so I think for MOST people 10K would be doable. Then there are those Fighting Chance costumes gotten through the "loot box" like system. In my experience, I have used the 10 draw option (4500 FM) to get them. The quickest I got one was the second try (9000) and the most was 8 draws (36000FM). I MIGHT have had some of those tickets from playing Survival Mode monthly on hand to get a free 10 draw. So even on my unluckiest streak, I got a nice nostalgia costume for less than a Story Mode costume, plus I got some EX colors along the way.

Maybe I am part of the problem though. I wait for season pass sales and have a couple of alt accounts just so I can buy the new characters ASAP with FM while waiting for sales. The performance for SFV has to be a disappointment for Capcom. They are still had 2.1 million on their sales on their website and I think they wanted to hit that within a year of release. So I can see their reasoning of trying to squeeze as much as possible from the player base. I have spent about $140 on SFV since its release. $60 for the base game(WAY too much for how bare bones it was), $20 for each season pass ($60 total on that), $15 for the base roster battle costumes, and $10 for the first X-Mas bundle. After all of that, I see so much stuff locked behind and obscene amount of FM.

I checked my account and see I have accumulated 2.7 MILLION FM total, but have 10 story mode costumes still locked and a bunch of those level 11+ colors. Then there are those EX colors which are pretty good on some characters (EX6 Abigail is nice), but are locked behind random chance. Capcom MIGHT be able to get me to drain my FM if they were to drop the price of Story mode costumes to 20000 FM, but I think I will just sit on my FM and just spend it on Extra Battle costumes. fighting chance costumes and stages until the end of SFV.







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"Re: Fight Money ranting" , posted Sat 19 Jan 05:06post reply

Yes, they recently cut Fight Money to around a third of what it was last year.

The Weekly Missions lost the easy 2500FM mission. Now you get around 1200FM in missions per week. The cut might actually be worse than 2/3rds though. I'm not sure, but I feel like the other missions used to pay out more than that.

Capcom also cut the Shadaloo Soldier Extra Battles by a third. Last year, you could do the battles three times, for three payouts. Now they are limited to a single attempt.

Before Arcade Edition, Weekly Missions gave close to 10,000 FM. The easy mission was 5000 FM, and I want to recall that the others totaled to around 4-5000FM as well. Then Arcade Edition came out and Capcom cut the Weekly payouts in half. Then introduced the "new" way to earn "more" FM, the Golden Shadaloo soldiers, that magically were paced to pay out on average roughly the same amount that had been cut from the Weekly Missions.

This time the cut is even worse though, as there isn't a real replacement. I think I read that advertising FM rewards capped around 800FM, and they've shut down the ad campaign anyway?


As for the overall economy of the game, that was pretty much doomed when Capcom started selling DLC characters for FM, and at comparable prices to the regular "free" content. If it weren't for the ability to buy real money DLC with Fight Money, Capcom wouldn't have had a reason to restrict FM generation so harshly. If the FM price for paid DLC was absurdly higher than "free" content, then Capcom could still have restricted FM generation without killing non-DLC uses, and players prioritizing DLC purchases wouldn't have been as much of a no-brainer.