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talbaineric
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"SFV" , posted Thu 7 May 13:33:post reply

http://www.vcpost.com/articles/55479/20150407/street-fighter-5-update-different-charlie-nash-comes-back-vengeance-new-characters-finally-revealed.htm

I was looking at this link and it says that SF will be getting Australian and Vietnamese characters in the game. Crazy if it'll be true.

It's safe to say, IMO, that SF has been very limited on representing nationalities. I think Australia and Vietnam are a good step forward. Europe is still underrepresented in the SF Universe. I think Capcom needs to work on the diversity of the cast.





[this message was edited by talbaineric on Thu 7 May 13:34]

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Maou
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"Re(1):SFV" , posted Thu 7 May 14:36post reply

Wha, what...?

Japan
China
US
India
Spain
Brazil
Thailand
Russia

In 1991?!

Add to that

Mexico
England
Hong Kong
Jamaica

as early as 1993. I'm sorry there aren't indigenous French fighting arts or something, but I'd call it one of the most diverse series from the start.





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"Re(2):SFV" , posted Thu 7 May 14:37post reply

quote:
indigenous French fighting arts or something,



Need Iggy's opinion on the indigenous French opinion on Savate





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"Re(2):SFV" , posted Thu 7 May 16:32post reply

quote:
Wha, what...?

Japan
China
US
India
Spain
Brazil
Thailand
Russia

In 1991?!

Add to that

Mexico
England
Hong Kong
Jamaica

as early as 1993. I'm sorry there aren't indigenous French fighting arts or something, but I'd call it one of the most diverse series from the start.



Dhalsim was created long before anyone knew what Yoga was. They were way ahead of the game.






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Olivier Hague
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"Re(1):SFV" , posted Thu 7 May 17:27:post reply

quote:
http://www.vcpost.com/articles/55479/20150407/street-fighter-5-update-different-charlie-nash-comes-back-vengeance-new-characters-finally-revealed.htm

The last time I read a Venture Capital Post article, it was basically rehashing a KDrama Stars one (for those who don't know, that site is pure clickbait: completely fabricated "news").

This looks like the same kind of BS:
quote:
Other characters named Cliff, Alex, Dudley, and Elena will also be revealed later on.

Clearly, those guys know their stuff.
quote:
Kuan's character will be announced during the Niconico Chokaigi 2015.

Didn't happen.
quote:
The fifth entry of the "Street Fighter" series is yet to be confirmed by Capcom and Sony.

Wut.
quote:
The mystery surrounding the character of Charlie Nash will surely create a huge difference in the game.

Surely.


EDIT: BS that was debunked weeks before VCPost rehashed it, even. Those fucking guys...





[this message was edited by Olivier Hague on Thu 7 May 17:37]

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"Re(3):SFV" , posted Thu 7 May 19:35post reply

quote:
Need Iggy's opinion on the indigenous French opinion on Savate


... Abel?





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"Re(4):SFV" , posted Thu 7 May 21:01:post reply

quote:
Need Iggy's opinion on the indigenous French opinion on Savate

... Abel?


Street Fighter III 3rd strike (1999), had Remy who is French and uses the French martial arts of Savate.
http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Remy





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[this message was edited by neo0r0chiaku on Thu 7 May 21:05]

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"Re(5):SFV" , posted Thu 7 May 21:56post reply

Venture Capital Post? I wondered what Eric had been up to; it seems he's been providing financing for startups.





talbaineric
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"Re(6):SFV" , posted Fri 8 May 05:28post reply

quote:
Venture Capital Post? I wondered what Eric had been up to; it seems he's been providing financing for startups.



If only, I need the cash lol. I wasn't sure if this source was credible or not?

I should've specified during the latter half of the 90's. I agree at the very beginning it was a very diverse cast. But later on there were a lot of American and Japanese characters. SF4 did manage to bring South Korea and Turkey into the mix though. I can't wait to see what's in store next.





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"Re(7):SFV" , posted Fri 8 May 07:03post reply

While I'm pretty sure Remy's fighting prowess owes less to Savate and more to his miraculous ability to move despite having at least 75% fewer frames of animation than Chun Li, that is still really interesting to hear about!





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neo0r0chiaku
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"Re(7):SFV" , posted Fri 8 May 20:57:post reply

quote:
Venture Capital Post? I wondered what Eric had been up to; it seems he's been providing financing for startups.


If only, I need the cash lol. I wasn't sure if this source was credible or not?

I should've specified during the latter half of the 90's. I agree at the very beginning it was a very diverse cast. But later on there were a lot of American and Japanese characters. SF4 did manage to bring South Korea and Turkey into the mix though. I can't wait to see what's in store next.


I think they still covered many countries from around the world after the 90's. The only parts of the world they did not cover was Central America (Mexico is NOT CA) and Pacific Islands. They have one Arabic (Saudi Arabia) fighter Pullum Purna from EX series. One from Africa (Kenya) named Elena (SF III).
Here is a cool little map of all the characters and parts of the world they are from.
http://media.eventhubs.com/images/2009/10/08_streetfightermap.jpg
Its missing the EX series characters. Based on what I read, it seems ARIKA has full rights to those characters and not Capcom. They are trying to bring them to future games (for a while now) but I guess they have to keep working on negotiations.





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[this message was edited by neo0r0chiaku on Fri 8 May 21:13]

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"Re(8):SFV" , posted Sat 9 May 01:42post reply

Yes, I'd say overall SF has quite a diverse cast. Most fighting games seem to concentrate mainly in fighters from USA, Japan and China, anyway (N64's Fighters Destiny series may be an exception - then again, it's not like it has many characters).

But it would be really nice if SFV could add more fighters from Africa. Come on, it's a huge continent full of countries with the most diverse cultures; I think if Capcom does a proper research, they will find many more fighting styles there than just Capoeira.

They may not have time to do that, unfortunately. If I remember correctly, SFV is supposed to be released next year, right? At this point they may already have most of the cast being developed (even though only Ryu, Chun-Li and Nash are confirmed so far).





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"Re(8):SFV" , posted Sat 9 May 03:22post reply

quote:

I think they still covered many countries from around the world after the 90's. The only parts of the world they did not cover was Central America (Mexico is NOT CA) and Pacific Islands.



No fighters from Scandanavian nations whatsoever, as well as Greenland. The vikings came from Scandanavia, even though nowadays what comes from it is starkly designed furniture.

Nobody from Canada.

Africa is a huge place, and it's kind of wrong to call it a country/nation in the way that it'd be wrong to call Europe or Central America a single country/nation.

But I think at least for SF2, the aim was to not merely have different countries, but to hit different continents. Having every character come from a different nation could be achieved entirely with characters from Europe, after all Germany/England/Spain/France/Estonia/etc. are most certainly NOT all the same historically/culturally/ethnically/etc. But it's the World Warrior and not the Euro Warrior.

That said, don't have any Irish fighters.





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"Re(8):SFV" , posted Sun 10 May 00:26post reply

quote:

Here is a cool little map of all the characters and parts of the world they are from.
http://media.eventhubs.com/images/2009/10/08_streetfightermap.jpg



Dan comes from China?!
I always thought he was from Japan





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"Re(9):SFV" , posted Sun 10 May 02:12post reply

quote:
Dan comes from China?!
I always thought he was from Japan

More precisely, he's a bootleg Hongkong copy of the Japanese original product, and of course it's a faulty copy.
Of course, that made more sense in the 90s.





Lord SNK
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"Re(10):SFV" , posted Sun 10 May 02:46post reply

quote:
Dan comes from China?!
I always thought he was from Japan
More precisely, he's a bootleg Hongkong copy of the Japanese original product, and of course it's a faulty copy.
Of course, that made more sense in the 90s.



Ah, it's OK, if he is from HongKong it make sense.





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"Re(9):SFV" , posted Sun 10 May 06:41post reply

quote:

Here is a cool little map of all the characters and parts of the world they are from.
http://media.eventhubs.com/images/2009/10/08_streetfightermap.jpg

No Hakan? No Poison? Isnt Juli Native American? Other than that thats a cool idea.





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"Re(10):SFV" , posted Sun 10 May 09:21post reply

quote:

Here is a cool little map of all the characters and parts of the world they are from.
http://media.eventhubs.com/images/2009/10/08_streetfightermap.jpg
No Hakan? No Poison? Isnt Juli Native American? Other than that thats a cool idea.



Yeah, Hakan and Poison are missing. So is Decapre, by the way.

As for Juli, it's... complicated. If I remember correctly, originally T.Hawk would be related to a different Shadaloo Doll, named Noembelu (she appears in the intro for Juli & Juni's tag team in SFA3) - but since Capcom didn't care to make a "fightable" Noembelu, her role was given to Juli. Even then, though, it seems that T.Hawk is related to both girls: Noembelu is a girl from his tribe, while Juli is supposed to be a German girl who he met and fell in love with.

I guess this last part came from the UDON comics. People often debate whether they can be considered canon - but considering how Capcom itself never seemed to care much about SF's plot before SFIV, these comics may be better than nothing.





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"Re(2):Re(10):SFV" , posted Sun 10 May 14:00post reply

quote:


Yeah, Hakan and Poison are missing. So is Decapre, by the way.




That map is like 6+ years old. Decapre and Hakan hadn't been invented yet!





kofoguz
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"Re(3):Re(10):SFV" , posted Sun 10 May 18:11post reply

quote:


Yeah, Hakan and Poison are missing. So is Decapre, by the way.



That map is like 6+ years old. Decapre and Hakan hadn't been invented yet!

There's Juri. Jüri and Hakan invented at the same time. Poison and Decapre came after usfiv.





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"Re(3):Re(10):SFV" , posted Mon 11 May 16:42post reply

quote:


Yeah, Hakan and Poison are missing. So is Decapre, by the way.



That map is like 6+ years old. Decapre and Hakan hadn't been invented yet!



Technically Decapre had, as one of the dolls which have been around since SFA3 - only one of them, Santamu, comes from a country not yet covered by playable characters though (Vietnam - although that gets ample mentions in Rolento's special move names).





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talbaineric
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"Re(4):Re(10):SFV" , posted Sat 13 Jun 00:33post reply

I love the new battle system that was just revealed. Pretty hyped about that! Each kind of remind me of the ISMS that Alpha 3 had.

Dunno how I feel about the London stage, though. Could've been a little more vibrant.





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"A little Birdie told me...." , posted Sat 13 Jun 12:06:post reply

That a German site may have leaked a couple of new additions to the roster.

Shamelessly nabbed translation c/o Red Arremer from NeoGaf:

quote:

Among the already known participants Ryu, Chun-Li, Nash/Charlie and M. Bison, the veterans Cammy White and Birdie will take part as well. Cammy still plays as swiftly as she always did, focusing on speed and melee attacks. Birdie, on the other hand, is an enormous hulk who hits really hard and can take quite the beating. Although the giant is very immobile, he has an iron chain that gives him range that is not to be underestimated. That's why the big guy is way too strong in the current preview version. Capcom still needs to fine-tune the balance in that regard!



All things considered, it looks like it might be legit. For the purposes of fun speculation, I'll just assume it's true so I can yap about these two characters a bit.

I've always liked Cammy and played her a lot in the Zero/Alpha series. What's not to like? I'm guessing her V-skill will be directional hooligan roll... not sure about a V-trigger, maybe some kind of speed boost.

But Birdie! Kind of unexpected, but not bad! He could do with a bit of a style update... I wouldn't mind if he were slightly less dumb than a rock this time. But anyway, T. Hawk was basically my main in SF4 and this guy would fit the same kind of "people think this is a lame character design, but that's secretly his charm and he will crush you into a fine powder anyway" kind of template. Plus he bit off Vice's "Withering Surface" super, which I really enjoy for the gotcha-factor when a panicked opponent jumps backwards.

So I would guess his V-Trigger could have something to do with super armor? No idea what his V-Skill might be.

Edit: Maybe they could use it to "charge" his turn-punch-style headbutt without holding buttons... press once to start the charge, press again to set it off? Seems like it would be a handy way to eliminate (what I always thought was a) weird and awkward mechanic.





/ / /

[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Sat 13 Jun 12:11]

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"Re(1):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Sat 13 Jun 12:39post reply

I'd rather have Eagle and Dudley instead. Winner gets the car.





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"Re(2):A little leak told me...." , posted Sat 13 Jun 18:17:post reply

That Ryu is coming to Smash Bros 4! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmo6rFJDFsA

reddit info thread

And Roy from Melee, but still, RYU! You even see his SF2 stage at the end.





[this message was edited by the real kap on Sat 13 Jun 18:19]

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"Re(2):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Sat 13 Jun 18:55:post reply

Ryu and Roy were known, but they look good so it's ok. I wonder how Roy will get differentiated from Marth...

As for Birdie and Cammy.... why would it be legit, exactly? Wouldn't it be strange if they didn't show at least one new character (new for real, not "new-not-in-SF4")?





[this message was edited by Iggy on Sat 13 Jun 19:34]

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"Re(3):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Sat 13 Jun 22:48post reply

quote:
Ryu and Roy were known, but they look good so it's ok. I wonder how Roy will get differentiated from Marth...

As for Birdie and Cammy.... why would it be legit, exactly? Wouldn't it be strange if they didn't show at least one new character (new for real, not "new-not-in-SF4")?

I think it seems legit cause Ono tweeted a can of energy drink in the London Stage with the picture of Birdie's belt. He also teased a banana and people think it points Blanka. As for Cammy, I think her new relationship with Chun Li, and her importance on story makes her a solid candidate but no current tease.I am happy that Birdie is in but sad that it might prevent Eagle's inclusion.

To tell you the truth for the first time I am excited for a Street Fighter. I hope Hakan and Eagle makes it. I would add Karin and Remy but I dont think it's possible.





Mosquiton
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"Re(3):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Sun 14 Jun 02:11post reply

quote:
Ryu and Roy were known, but they look good so it's ok. I wonder how Roy will get differentiated from Marth...

As for Birdie and Cammy.... why would it be legit, exactly? Wouldn't it be strange if they didn't show at least one new character (new for real, not "new-not-in-SF4")?



Again, I'll take any excuse to dive into some fun speculation, but the odds look pretty decent.

The can.

The belt.

The throwaway comment from 2012.


I could still see them revealing three characters at E3. Why not?





/ / /

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"Re(4):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Sun 14 Jun 17:46post reply

Ryu's presence in Smash seems to be more than just a guest appearance: Seems they even redid the even Street Fighter's mechanics within the game, with performing the traditional ,, etc. yeilding stronger attacks/better recovery!





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"Re(5):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Sun 14 Jun 20:47post reply

quote:
Ryu's presence in Smash seems to be more than just a guest appearance: Seems they even redid the even Street Fighter's mechanics within the game, with performing the traditional ,, etc. yeilding stronger attacks/better recovery!



I'm not sure how I feel about that. Ryu's moveset always seemed a perfect fit for Smash's design. Adding Capcom-style controls as an alternative input isn't that bad, but using the Capcom motions actually gets you damage boosts and other benefits?





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"Re(1):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Mon 15 Jun 03:41post reply

Birdie and Cammy? That's a bit of a surprise but as long as Birdie's hair still makes no sense whatsoever he's welcome back.

Is there anything left to announce at E3 that has not leaked yet?

quote:
Edit: Maybe they could use it to "charge" his turn-punch-style headbutt without holding buttons... press once to start the charge, press again to set it off? Seems like it would be a handy way to eliminate (what I always thought was a) weird and awkward mechanic.

Since it seems the folks making SF5 are more than willing to change even long established characters for this game I would expect that Birdie is going to get a full overhaul. That's probably for the best since, for me, he was a character who could do a great deal but didn't fully gel into a workable play style. Hopefully this new Birdie will keep the variety but lose the aspects of his game that worked against one another.

As for Cammy, I'm assuming she's going to be the rush down, in your face character for the game but what, if anything, are they going to do to make her different from SF4 Cammy? Has she been secretly replaced by Decapre and now spends the entire match charge dashing around the screen?





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"Re(2):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Mon 15 Jun 12:39post reply

quote:

Since it seems the folks making SF5 are more than willing to change even long established characters for this game I would expect that Birdie is going to get a full overhaul. That's probably for the best since, for me, he was a character who could do a great deal but didn't fully gel into a workable play style. Hopefully this new Birdie will keep the variety but lose the aspects of his game that worked against one another.

As for Cammy, I'm assuming she's going to be the rush down, in your face character for the game but what, if anything, are they going to do to make her different from SF4 Cammy? Has she been secretly replaced by Decapre and now spends the entire match charge dashing around the screen?



Never let lack of confirmation keep you from the fun of speculation!

You know, since Ryu is still Ryu and Chun is still Chun, I wouldn't be very surprised if Cammy wasn't dramatically changed. Sure, she doesn't go as far back as the main cast, but considering her general popularity number of games she's been in, she's pretty close to "classic" status. I actually love hooligan roll, even though it's not an especially *good* move... so I'd greatly enjoy if it became a more interesting and viable part of her playstyle.

I admit that Birdie could definitely use some work, and he's been gone so long that very few people would think to complain if they changed up his game. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if he were still a grappler that throws people around with a chain and still does Boxer-style dash attacks to close distance.

Would love to see some fun new stuff for both characters, as well.





/ / /

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"Re(3):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Mon 15 Jun 12:59post reply

quote:

Since it seems the folks making SF5 are more than willing to change even long established characters for this game I would expect that Birdie is going to get a full overhaul. That's probably for the best since, for me, he was a character who could do a great deal but didn't fully gel into a workable play style. Hopefully this new Birdie will keep the variety but lose the aspects of his game that worked against one another.

As for Cammy, I'm assuming she's going to be the rush down, in your face character for the game but what, if anything, are they going to do to make her different from SF4 Cammy? Has she been secretly replaced by Decapre and now spends the entire match charge dashing around the screen?


Never let lack of confirmation keep you from the fun of speculation!

You know, since Ryu is still Ryu and Chun is still Chun, I wouldn't be very surprised if Cammy wasn't dramatically changed. Sure, she doesn't go as far back as the main cast, but considering her general popularity number of games she's been in, she's pretty close to "classic" status. I actually love hooligan roll, even though it's not an especially *good* move... so I'd greatly enjoy if it became a more interesting and viable part of her playstyle.

I admit that Birdie could definitely use some work, and he's been gone so long that very few people would think to complain if they changed up his game. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if he were still a grappler that throws people aro

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


I think it's funny that of Cammy's iconic moves, they've never managed to make her spinning backfist and hooligan major tools in competitive play after literally decades of trying. The basic concepts of Cammy, a character with a variety of mobility special moves which are mostly strikes with a grapple mixed in to form a dynamic grappling threat, harkens to an attempt at what we probably now think of as "SNK-style grappler". I have to wonder how SF character design gameplay-wise might've changed had the grappling aspect of Cammy been more successful in her early versions.





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"Re(4):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Mon 15 Jun 13:36post reply

I'm anticipating Cammy and Birdie's arrivals if this leak is true. However, I was never a big fan of Birdie's design, perhaps they can amp it up a little bit. Give him some high tops, a vest type of jacket, but keep his signature hair, you gotta!





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"Re(6):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Mon 15 Jun 18:35post reply

quote:
I'm not sure how I feel about that. Ryu's moveset always seemed a perfect fit for Smash's design. Adding Capcom-style controls as an alternative input isn't that bad, but using the Capcom motions actually gets you damage boosts and other benefits?



IIRC the damage boosts don't go beyond a 1.25 multiplier, which isn't too bad a reward for some extra execution work - and considering the importance of button press lengths for this implementation of the character, getting not only the motion right, but holding a button long enough to get the Hadoken to advance at just the right speed to catch an opponent, or to get the Shoryuken to go just as high as it needs to in arenas which are a lot more platform intensive than Ryu's usual venues seems fair.

SvC Chaos did something similar, by making the harder command to guard cancel dashing cost less bar, and Dissidia made you spend points that could be used on attacks or other perks if you made some bonuses automatic - I'm all for this sort of thing to even the playing field while rewarding going the extra mile with execution.





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"Re(7):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Mon 15 Jun 22:17:post reply

quote:
I'm all for this sort of thing to even the playing field while rewarding going the extra mile with execution.


That's contradictory though. Rewarding going the extra mile with execution is unevening the playing field.

If Ryu is balanced for Smash inputs, but using Capcom inputs gives you a damage boost and other benefits, then using Capcom inputs gives you an advantage over the rest of the roster. From a balance perspective, that approach would pretty much trying to make Ryu overpowered.

If Ryu is balanced for (the slightly more difficult and situation-dependent) Capcom inputs, then anyone playing Ryu without using them is at a disadvantage both against the rest of the roster and against other Ryu players. It isn't the game balance issue of the prior approach, but it does mean that you've designed a character that is underpowered if not played in a particular non-standard way.





[this message was edited by Baines on Mon 15 Jun 22:18]

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"Re(8):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Tue 16 Jun 00:00post reply

quote:
If Ryu is balanced for (the slightly more difficult and situation-dependent) Capcom inputs, then anyone playing Ryu without using them is at a disadvantage both against the rest of the roster and against other Ryu players. It isn't the game balance issue of the prior approach, but it does mean that you've designed a character that is underpowered if not played in a particular non-standard way.

One of the probable issues in Smash, especially Smash 4, is to give each character personality or a system that sets it apart without any doubt. Ness and Lucas may be very different if you know them, but from an uneducated point of view they still appear as "clones", and I guess that's something Sakurai's team tried hard to avoid with Smash 4: Mac's jauge, Shulk's Monado, WFT's breathing move... so giving Ryu his own system "you need to input commands" makes sense (especially since if he only had had his 3 main moves mapped on the 3 direction, he would have been very similar to many existing characters).
As far as I could tell with my pre-school level in Smasheries, Ryu's main weakness (off-platform play chasing others off-screen, recovery) has nothing to do with his moves and commands. So in a way, the fact that moves can be performed the easy way and the hard, efficient way may also allow people to get used to his physics and mobility gradually, and only once they've mastered it try to do good with his input. It's an interesting twist to have Ryu in this game being the C-Viper/technical character, since he is more of an entry-level character in his own series.





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"Re(4):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Tue 16 Jun 01:06post reply

quote:
I think it's funny that of Cammy's iconic moves, they've never managed to make her spinning backfist and hooligan major tools in competitive play after literally decades of trying. The basic concepts of Cammy, a character with a variety of mobility special moves which are mostly strikes with a grapple mixed in to form a dynamic grappling threat, harkens to an attempt at what we probably now think of as "SNK-style grappler". I have to wonder how SF character design gameplay-wise might've changed had the grappling aspect of Cammy been more successful in her early versions.

Doing something to make her backfist worthwhile would be a wonderful change. Too often her Cannon Drill is her go-to all purpose move which makes her feel a bit straightforward. Having a backfist that did something would not only give her more variety but would also feel natural since it's part of her original move list.

Now watch the leak turn out to be a false rumor and Joe gets announced instead.





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"Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 11:35:post reply

Well, there it is.

Birdie... really let himself go, there. Cammy has obviously kept herself in shape.

Info update:
Move details at shoryuken.com.

Going back to earlier conversation, Cammy's pretty much the same with no really "new" moves. V-Skill is the spin knuckle... so they'd better have figured out how to make it work! As for Birdie's V-Skill, he consumes junk food and litters the stage with trash.





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[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Tue 16 Jun 11:51]

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"Re(1):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 11:44post reply

quote:
Well, there it is.

Birdie... really let himself go, there.



The art direction for this game fills me with sorrow. The lack of color and imagination. The cheap action figure look. The terrible, arbitrary redesigns. If there's any silver lining it's that eventually maybe we'll get to see some Daigo Ikeno sketches (that must have been thrown out the window cos this game looks nothing like his work).

(Sorry for the negativity! These comments come from a place of love! TT__TT)






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"Re(2):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 11:51:post reply

quote:
Birdie... really let himself go, there.
Per his Zero series chain slam line: go...to heaven! Poor Birdie. But wait...Birdie is white!? Maybe there is a lighting problem.

As for the art direction, I don't know. If we were in the late 1990's I'd be more shocked, but aside from Franken-Nash, people look better in-game than in IV (or maybe I was tired of weird flat-chested Chun-Li). I also like the official character art I've seen so far better than IV's dull, dreary stuff, sumi-e be damned.





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

[this message was edited by Maou on Tue 16 Jun 11:53]

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"Re(5):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Tue 16 Jun 12:16post reply

quote:
Now watch the leak turn out to be a false rumor and Joe gets announced instead.

Guess not.





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"Re(2):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 16:26post reply

quote:
Well, there it is.

Birdie... really let himself go, there.


The art direction for this game fills me with sorrow. The lack of color and imagination. The cheap action figure look. The terrible, arbitrary redesigns. If there's any silver lining it's that eventually maybe we'll get to see some Daigo Ikeno sketches (that must have been thrown out the window cos this game looks nothing like his work).

(Sorry for the negativity! These comments come from a place of love! TT__TT)



When I look at the official screenshots of the game without the lifebars etc it feels like I'm looking at some fake screenshots some "fan" mocked up and the-magicbox reported as legit.

No one told me the ClayFighter remake was going to be called Street Fighter V.

...places like Siliconera are full of praise for the "amazing art direction" and people saying they will finally get into Street Fighter because this looks so good.

It's all over. Thanks Ono.





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"Re(3):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 16:27post reply

quote:
Birdie... really let himself go, there. Per his Zero series chain slam line: go...to heaven! Poor Birdie. But wait...Birdie is white!? Maybe there is a lighting problem.

As for the art direction, I don't know. If we were in the late 1990's I'd be more shocked, but aside from Franken-Nash, people look better in-game than in IV (or maybe I was tired of weird flat-chested Chun-Li). I also like the official character art I've seen so far better than IV's dull, dreary stuff, sumi-e be damned.

I agree with Maou after bland and ugly Sf4 art direction I really liked clean claymotion/action figured like models. Except for Ryu's lifeless non-surprised surprised reaction to Nash's super... but I hate Ryu with passion, so...

Eventhough I dont know if I hate or love foggy/light/pale background colors, but I love how they let character models' colours shine.





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"Re(8):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Tue 16 Jun 17:57post reply

quote:
I'm all for this sort of thing to even the playing field while rewarding going the extra mile with execution.

That's contradictory though. Rewarding going the extra mile with execution is unevening the playing field.

If Ryu is balanced for Smash inputs, but using Capcom inputs gives you a damage boost and other benefits, then using Capcom inputs gives you an advantage over the rest of the roster. From a balance perspective, that approach would pretty much trying to make Ryu overpowered.

If Ryu is balanced for (the slightly more difficult and situation-dependent) Capcom inputs, then anyone playing Ryu without using them is at a disadvantage both against the rest of the roster and against other Ryu players. It isn't the game balance issue of the prior approach, but it does mean that you've designed a character that is underpowered if not played in a particular non-standard way.



Wouldn't that also depend on the strength of the default version of his moves? I'don't really know how they stack up compared to the rest of the cast damage-wise.
In terms of body shape, range and weaponlessness, I guess he's closest to Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer and Captain Falcon - I'm curious to see how he holds up against those, since their moves are specifically designed for Smash (a little less in Mac's case, due to his more grounded approach).
Then there's the fact that Ryu's moves were designed to handle a single opponent at a time - in a more party-like setting with several characters on screen maybe he's just not as effective (his Hadokens probably don't do that well compared to the beam attacks some of the rest of the cast have as smash ball attacks, for example, and the Tatsumakisenpukyaku might compare poorly to stuff like faster and more direct dashing punches) - this may become moot in more competitive settings, of course.

I also wonder about the viability of using both the Hadoken and Tatsumaki commands in a platforming environment where you can turn either way - the Hadoken is clear enough, but how do you make one not come out in the opposite direction if you try to use a Tatsumaki? That's an issue players won't get with the default Smash commands, so that might be a consideration.





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"Re(4):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 18:19:post reply

quote:
Birdie... really let himself go, there. Per his Zero series chain slam line: go...to heaven! Poor Birdie. But wait...Birdie is white!? Maybe there is a lighting problem.

As for the art direction, I don't know. If we were in the late 1990's I'd be more shocked, but aside from Franken-Nash, people look better in-game than in IV (or maybe I was tired of weird flat-chested Chun-Li). I also like the official character art I've seen so far better than IV's dull, dreary stuff, sumi-e be damned.
I agree with Maou after bland and ugly Sf4 art direction I really liked clean claymotion/action figured like models. Except for Ryu's lifeless non-surprised surprised reaction to Nash's super... but I hate Ryu with passion, so...

Eventhough I dont know if I hate or love foggy/light/pale background colors, but I love how they let character models' colours shine.



Let's compare the sepia toned background of SFV to the sepia colored War Agony stage from Darkstalkers.

Street Fighter V
War Agony

The Street Fighter V England stage has a very flat look to it because it achieves the sepia look through a filter instead of naturalistic lighting. It's like a video that's undergone heavy post processing, or a photoshop/Instagram filter. It's applying the same effects evenly throughout the whole image, which robs it of its dimension and contrast. That's why for instance, there's no black in that image. The shadows fall short of it cos they're programmed to stop at that weird grey hue.

Oh Geez I just saw another image of that stage that's even worse. There's so little range of color here. It's just so bland and the execution is so heartless and cold. On top of that, the way the reds pop out is very garish and feels arbitrary. For instance the red phone booth sticks out like a sore thumb. Does it really need to be a visual focal point? Is that really the most important thing for your eye to be drawn to in that stage?

Now look at War Agony. Although it's actually a 2 dimensional pixel painting, look at how much more dimension it has to it. Although the overall color scheme averages out to be brown, there's so much depth and variety within it. Look at those purples in the sky. Look at the rightmost fence. How it recedes into a flat green, how it turns purplish as it advances forward, then back to green, then finally it becomes brighter tan color with insanely hot red highlights that DONT draw attention to themselves. And you know what's crazy? I just took the image into photoshop and eyedropped those colors, and they are actually all variations of orange. They just feel different because of slight variations in how warm/cold light/dark they are.

This is what Capcom used to excel at. Every little detail in their games was so measured and well considered individually and in the context of the game as a whole. The more I study them, the deeper I dig, the more I appreciate their 2d games.

Street Fighter V is like most things. The more you look at it, the more it falls apart.

I'm just sad to see something that used to be such a high water mark for quality descend into mediocrity, especially because I know they still have amazing people like Daigo Ikeno on staff, but they willingly choose to move the game in a direction more in line with contemporary Hollywood/AAA game-by-committee aesthetics.

Again, sorry for the negativity. This post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I don't want anyone to feel bad if they like how this game looks, I just wanted to articulate why I personally see Street Fighter V (and IV) as an artistic downgrade given its legacy.






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[this message was edited by nobinobita on Tue 16 Jun 18:24]

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"Re(3):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 18:22post reply

quote:


When I look at the official screenshots of the game without the lifebars etc it feels like I'm looking at some fake screenshots some "fan" mocked up and the-magicbox reported as legit.




Look how similar this fan edit of War Agony looks to the Street Fighter V England stage:

http://tof.canardpc.com/view/fb50f950-900b-4eb6-ab6e-be6aeb97fd97.jpg






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"Re(5):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 20:05post reply

While I'm not as negative as Nobi (the dreadful SF4 had really lowered my standards for the series, so anything better than that remains an improvement), the hair in the teaser confirmed my worst fears: Cammy's are as random as they were in SF4, and Birdie's are not magically hollow anymore.
Oh, well. Maybe there's still time to fix that...?





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"Re(5):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 23:16post reply

quote:
Birdie... really let himself go, there. Per his Zero series chain slam line: go...to heaven! Poor Birdie. But wait...Birdie is white!? Maybe there is a lighting problem.

As for the art direction, I don't know. If we were in the late 1990's I'd be more shocked, but aside from Franken-Nash, people look better in-game than in IV (or maybe I was tired of weird flat-chested Chun-Li). I also like the official character art I've seen so far better than IV's dull, dreary stuff, sumi-e be damned.
I agree with Maou after bland and ugly Sf4 art direction I really liked clean claymotion/action figured like models. Except for Ryu's lifeless non-surprised surprised reaction to Nash's super... but I hate Ryu with passion, so...

Eventhough I dont know if I hate or love foggy/light/pale background colors, but I love how they let character models' colours shine.


Let's compare the sepia toned background of SFV to the sepia colored War Agony stage from Darkstalkers.

Street Fighter V
War Agony

The Street Fighter V England stage has a very flat look to it because it achieves the sepia look through a filter instead of naturalistic lighting. It's like a video that's undergone[URL=http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/blueorang

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --

I agree, even though I have not played much of the new games Capcom has provided, SF4 and now SFV still does not strike to me in terms of graphics quality. I think the reason its setup this way it to make sure no slowdown occurs to keep it fast. Even with that, it still can look a lot better. But then again, I am and always a 2-D guy and against 3-D.





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"Re(6):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 23:26post reply

quote:
While I'm not as negative as Nobi (the dreadful SF4 had really lowered my standards for the series, so anything better than that remains an improvement).

I agree with Iggy about how awful SFIV was. Except for designing Hakan, Abel, Juri and C. Viper.
And Nobi it is OK and I am glad you answered because this healthy discussion is also educational. Well, at least for me. Like I say, I like the contrast but may be as you say, if contrast would've been equal and well thought I might've said that I wasn't sure if I love it or hate it. It might have been magnificent. What you said reminded me this What if Man od Steel was in colour?video. May be this can be fixed in future?





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"Nobithon" , posted Tue 16 Jun 23:42:post reply

quote:
compare the sepia toned background of SFV to the sepia colored War Agony stage from Darkstalkers.
Oh Nobi, you picked the cruelest contrast possible! This is like cheap doujin vs. Hokusai or something. If they got SF Zero 2 and 3 running with netcode, I'd happily play them online with you till the end of days. And Vampire too, so Iggy won't yell at me, though I'm still too stupid to play it.

I love your analysis and agree with the dreary backgrounds...but I'm most interested in how you stack them up against IV, a game I played quite a bit of while hating the entire art direction, particularly the crappy music, boring stages, and stupid-looking characters (in and out of the game). Somehow, V's in-game and official characters look better than that insipid stuff from IV...again, except for Franken-Nash. God. Is it the sloppy stage lighting that's made it look like Birdie's pulled a Michael Jackson?





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[this message was edited by Maou on Wed 17 Jun 00:19]

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"Re(1):Nobithon" , posted Wed 17 Jun 00:23post reply

I get that they don't yet want photorealistic human depictions of the SF characters, but the "solidly plastic" shading of the characters is an interesting decision to me. Not "interesting" as in "good" or "interesting" as in "oh, that's so clever", but "interesting" as in "why did they decide that?"

I'm still glad to see that Cammy has substantial muscles. The way in which her biceps, shoulders, etc. become more prominent when they're flexed is cool, and it stands out versus the always-hugely-muscled male characters. I don't know if she'll ever be as cut as she was in her SF2 incarnation (current UFC women's champion Ronda Rousey is nowhere near as trim as Cammy, and Ronda Rousey is literally one of the strongest women in the world), but it's good to see that her visible strength was acknowledged, by whatever committee is behind SFV, as a valuable part of her appeal.





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"Re(5):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Wed 17 Jun 02:38post reply

The more I read about the mechanics of SF5 the more excited I get. This game sounds like it's going to be fun to play.

As for the returning characters, Cammy looks like her modeling is not 100% finished. Still, she is decked out in her Cannonstrike/Gunstrike outfit which is a surprising return. Here's to hoping she pulls out the in-line skates for a victory pose. The poor girl's also never going to have V-Trigger if she has to rely on her Spin Knuckle to build it up. Perhaps this will finally be the game where that move is useful but I have my doubts.

Birdie, however, is looking stunning. I like that he does nothing to try and hide his girth and refuses to do sit-ups in order to get in shape for a fighting tournament. Instead he bleached his chest hair in order to highlight his spare tire. Now that's punk!

quote:
Let's compare the sepia toned background of SFV to the sepia colored War Agony stage from Darkstalkers.

Street Fighter V
War Agony


This seems like an unfair comparison. The SF5 stage is being designed to accommodate changes in the camera angle and differing light effects while War Agony is built for parallax scrolling. One is a painting while the other is more of a shadow box. These may both be fighting game backgrounds but they are built to serve very different functions. Is there a 3D area in a game with fixed camera angles that you do think has good design? It might make for a more equal comparison to the SF5 stage.

Also, is there a full shot of the SF5 stage? You can't see the entirety of War Agony in-game like you can in that picture so it seems off to judge a stage based on randomly pulled up screen grabs.

I'm not saying any of this to defend the SF5 stage. It has all the problems you listed and probably others that have yet to be discovered. (For the sake of full admission I can't stand War Agony either.) But the comparison between the two feels very apples and oranges to me. The SF5 stage can't do exactly what War Agony is doing because it has to abide by a different set of rules.





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"Re(2):Nobithon" , posted Wed 17 Jun 04:08post reply

quote:
I get that they don't yet want photorealistic human depictions of the SF characters, but the "solidly plastic" shading of the characters is an interesting decision to me. Not "interesting" as in "good" or "interesting" as in "oh, that's so clever", but "interesting" as in "why did they decide that?"



I hope the "V" aesthetic continues to evolve. I find it interesting. It does have a claymation-esque look and I think I'm okay with that.

I don't want to get on the trash IV bandwagon but yeah, it was a very serviceable aesthetic. It was polished in its own right but it lacked some sort of "magic" that the previous games had. I didn't fall in love with it when I first saw it and I never fell in love with at all.

I think I might end up liking V's look.





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"Re(6):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Wed 17 Jun 08:28post reply

quote:

As for the returning characters, Cammy looks like her modeling is not 100% finished. Still, she is decked out in her Cannonstrike/Gunstrike outfit which is a surprising return. Here's to hoping she pulls out the in-line skates for a victory pose.


You neat me to it. If we couldn't have an all new Cammy outfit, this is at least a good second best choice.
quote:

Birdie, however, is looking stunning. I like that he does nothing to try and hide his girth and refuses to do sit-ups in order to get in shape for a fighting tournament. Instead he bleached his chest hair in order to highlight his spare tire. Now that's punk!


I'm just happy Birdie is back! Although I do miss his mohawk-hair-hole. Plus fingers crossed that his big gut means they left Rufus on the cutting room floor!

I'm not going to trash IV or V. Their aesthetic isn't my favorite, but I suspect anything short of a 2D game (or 2D presentation at least) would have disappointed me. But I'm not Capcom's audience on any number of levels.





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"Re(7):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Wed 17 Jun 11:26post reply

Letting go the visuals, I am very, very happy of what I hear about the systems. Damage, chip damage, throw range... Everything seems to appeal to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j9fJNt9NnQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aib6hdpAbxI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB7HIVvjWzI





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"Re(8):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Thu 18 Jun 01:44post reply

quote:
Letting go the visuals, I am very, very happy of what I hear about the systems. Damage, chip damage, throw range... Everything seems to appeal to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j9fJNt9NnQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aib6hdpAbxI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB7HIVvjWzI


I like the idea they are going for where everyone is overpowered. It feels like they are going for quick matches where you never feel safe. Looks like fun!





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"Re(9):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Thu 18 Jun 02:04post reply

One thing I am a little concerned about is that damage is pretty high right now for simple combos, which poses the possibility of "real" combos doing like >40% of an opponent's bar.

I'm hoping they don't go the UNIEL route where all damage is scaled in such a deliberate way that there is this damage mark that is incredibly difficult to breach without burning a super.





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"Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Thu 18 Jun 07:17post reply

quote:
One thing I am a little concerned about is that damage is pretty high right now for simple combos, which poses the possibility of "real" combos doing like >40% of an opponent's bar.



That's what we like to call big damage!

I think we're already there, and I'm actually a fan. The matches I'm seeing remind me a lot of Super Turbo, which in a lot of ways is my favorite SF.

I'd personally much rather see shorter combos and rocking an opponent with stun after a few flashes of sustained beautiful/savage/smart play rather than trying to squeeze every last pixel of life out of your opponent than making sure to squeeze in every jab/short possible on the front end of a combo and spend EX meter for just one more juggle hit.

Speaking here as an Adon player that gravitated toward T. Hawk so I didn't have as many chances to flub combos, I'm really happy with what I've seen.

Also good by crouch tech, I hope you burn in hell!

Man, I picked a crazy E3 to miss after being at 15 straight shows. At least there's the beta coming up!





/ / /

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"Re(2):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Thu 18 Jun 08:14post reply

quote:

That's what we like to call big damage!

I think we're already there, and I'm actually a fan. The matches I'm seeing remind me a lot of Super Turbo, which in a lot of ways is my favorite SF.

I'd personally much rather see shorter combos and rocking an opponent with stun after a few flashes of sustained beautiful/savage/smart play rather than trying to squeeze every last pixel of life out of your opponent than making sure to squeeze in every jab/short possible on the front end of a combo and spend EX meter for just one more juggle hit.




I guess what I'm driving at is that nobody knows how to play the game well yet, so combos are only going to get MORE developed than what is already there. I'm all for short combos, too, but there's nothing suggesting that that's going to happen or not happen, while at the same time damage on even simple combos is pretty solid. Having the capacity for awesome link combos I think is generally better than not having it.

I mean, I love HnK, and coming from ArcSys land where practical 40% meterless damage is commonplace is something that isn't alien to me, but I'd rather that not be the norm in SFV. 3S had some crazy meterless stuff, but it was usually extremely situational.





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"Re(3):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 00:43post reply

quote:
I guess what I'm driving at is that nobody knows how to play the game well yet, so combos are only going to get MORE developed than what is already there. I'm all for short combos, too, but there's nothing suggesting that that's going to happen or not happen, while at the same time damage on even simple combos is pretty solid. Having the capacity for awesome link combos I think is generally better than not having it.

I mean, I love HnK, and coming from ArcSys land where practical 40% meterless damage is commonplace is something that isn't alien to me, but I'd rather that not be the norm in SFV. 3S had some crazy meterless stuff, but it was usually extremely situational.


I'm not good at reverse engineering fighting games but if I had to guess I would say that the strong characters in SF5 aren't going to be based around long combos but who has the best pokes and hit confirms into super. While it might be entirely possible that there are complex combos waiting to be discovered the articles I've read about SF5 seem to suggest that the game is being designed to avoid long, execution heavy combos. I don't know how the game engine will react to an absurd combo but I suspect it's going to be like your 3S example where it's more of a situational fluke than a regular part of a match.

I'm certain that SF5 is going to change wildly before release (heck, Chun-Li has already lost two moves!) but this E3 presentation did a good job of showing what sort of game they want SF5 to be. As it stands right now it looks really aggressive and designed with an old-school, high-damage approach. Whether or not that's going to pan out remains to be seen but it's certainly a world away from SF4.





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"Re(4):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 01:50:post reply

quote:
(heck, Chun-Li has already lost two moves!)
Has she? Which moves? That was fast!

I really hope the game stays in the SSF2 territory of short damaging combos. I wonder if the failure of SFxT was so intense that they decided to go as far as possible from that game. In which case: fine by me!





[this message was edited by Iggy on Fri 19 Jun 01:51]

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"Re(5):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 06:11post reply

quote:
(heck, Chun-Li has already lost two moves!) Has she? Which moves? That was fast!

I really hope the game stays in the SSF2 territory of short damaging combos. I wonder if the failure of SFxT was so intense that they decided to go as far as possible from that game. In which case: fine by me!



She used to be able to fill up the screen with kikokens

I really like the high damage output of SF V, maybe stun can be toned down just a bit.

I am kinda disappointed we haven't seen a new character yet. I am sure there will probably be only 3 or 4, but I would like to see something new earlier. I guess we will see something as Gamescom or SDCC.





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"Re(5):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 07:03post reply

quote:
I really hope the game stays in the SSF2 territory of short damaging combos.
Yesss if we could have SSF2X high damage combined with Zero air-blocking, I'd be so happy. Someone tell me why I should dislike air-blocking. Aside from the bad art and music, that might be the other 25% of why I didn't enjoy SSF4.





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"Re(6):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 07:22post reply

quote:
I really hope the game stays in the SSF2 territory of short damaging combos. Yesss if we could have SSF2X high damage combined with Zero air-blocking, I'd be so happy. Someone tell me why I should dislike air-blocking. Aside from the bad art and music, that might be the other 25% of why I didn't enjoy SSF4.



Because without universal air throws and other supporting systems, air blocking in an SF game is too safe and has inadequate punishment.

SF4 and SF5 have deliberately chosen not to include any kind of guard gauge or guard crush system, so airblocking would not incur any of those costs, which means that the entire air-to-air game becomes really odd. Juggling is still fairly restrictive, which means not a huge amount of reward for successfully defeating the air block, which is an act that already requires more care than utilizing it. Chicken blocking would straight up beat a variety of other offensive strategies (e.g. hurricane kick / throw option selects).

Rose was deliberately designed with an anti-air that works the way it does because of air blocking. You can airblock Ryu/Ken DPs once their feet leave the ground, but you can never airblock Soul Throw, so Soul Throw beats empty jump in always. However, Soul Throw should lose to certain attacks, so that makes it more interesting than just "a DP that can't hit people who are on the ground". In SF4, however, Soul Throw feels like a weird thing to have at all.

I like air blocking, but just dropping it into SF4/5 as they are probably wouldn't be good for the game.





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"Re(7):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 08:37:post reply

quote:

Because without universal air throws and other supporting systems, air blocking in an SF game is too safe and has inadequate punishment.

SF4 and SF5 have deliberately chosen not to include any kind of guard gauge or guard crush system, so airblocking would not incur any of those costs
Point taken. But wait: aren't you thinking in overly modern SF Zero 3 terms instead of SF Zero 2? SFZ2 had air-blocking but no universal air throws that I can recall, and the guard guage was also a non-issue for...most fighting games (? Certainly Street Fighter) until it appeared in SFZ3.

I still think special-into-super combo was a far greater balance-killer (or at least fun-killer), and that comes courtesy of SF3 and continued its awful legacy into SF4.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 19 Jun 08:39]

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"Re(8):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 09:13post reply

quote:

Point taken. But wait: aren't you thinking in overly modern SF Zero 3 terms instead of SF Zero 2? SFZ2 had air-blocking but no universal air throws that I can recall, and the guard guage was also a non-issue for...most fighting games (? Certainly Street Fighter) until it appeared in SFZ3.



It's probably worth considering what kind of game it is that has the airblocking in it. X-Men COTA and beyond to the Vs. series, everybody is flying everywhere all the time, so since mobility was so great it wasn't a problem. KOF 98's airblock was so restrictive that it's largely a non-factor. Nobody took SFA1 seriously competitively, so who knows. SFA2 was thoroughly dominated by the Custom Combo system for the people that did play it seriously, and Custom Combos could punish anything, including air blocking. But it is true that SFA2 wasn't a whole lot worse for having air blocking, though perhaps mainly because CC overshadowed all other systems of the game. You can airblock in Cyberbots, but there are projectiles everywhere, so getting around without it would be obnoxious.

In the slower context of SF4, I'm just not convinced that it would make the game a whole lot better, given the already plodding nature of the game. There isn't a whole lot of stuff on the screen to deal with at any time (unlike Vs. series etc.), mobility is relatively low at a baseline (this isn't a game of airdashes/doublejumps/hyper hops/etc.), juggling is fairly restricted (being able to connect ANYTHING after a normal against an airborne opponent who is not already in a jugglable state is relatively unusual), etc.

It certainly might make the game more enjoyable at the low level of play that most people are at including myself (systems that make it easier to jump at people tend to do that), but it might make the game even more tedious at the higher level. I'm sure they gave it a try, though: after all, the game has plenty of SFA characters in it.

In fact, it probably would've been a really fun System Direction option. SF3 games had it in System Direction, and it was kind of amusing.





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"Re(6):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 10:39post reply

quote:
I really hope the game stays in the SSF2 territory of short damaging combos. I wonder if the failure of SFxT was so intense that they decided to go as far as possible from that game. In which case: fine by me!


SFxT died so that SF5 may live! It's like the developers of SF5 looked at the deliberate, constantly safe pace of SFxT and said "let's not do that."

quote:
She used to be able to fill up the screen with kikokens

She also lost her mid-air spin once she gained air lightning kicks. I also have seen no evidence for or against her kicks into Tenshokyaku still being in the game. I'm guessing that move is still done by starting up with but everyone at E3 was so terrified of Birdie they were afraid to push buttons.





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"Re(7):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 10:58post reply

quote:
It's like the developers of SF5 looked at the deliberate, constantly safe pace of SFxT and said "let's not do that."



I think they just looked at SFxT itself and had that exact thought. Even Harada must consider that game a bigger sin than the live action Tekken movie.





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"Re(8):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 11:32post reply

quote:
It's like the developers of SF5 looked at the deliberate, constantly safe pace of SFxT and said "let's not do that."


I think they just looked at SFxT itself and had that exact thought. Even Harada must consider that game a bigger sin than the live action Tekken movie.



With SFxT, I wonder why Namco did not make there own version of the crossover. TvSF? I thought they said it was agreed on to create their version no?





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"Re(9):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 13:56post reply

quote:
With SFxT, I wonder why Namco did not make there own version of the crossover. TvSF? I thought they said it was agreed on to create their version no?

I remember reading maybe a couple months or so back that Harada was still involved in it, but didn't really have much to say otherwise except maybe something about projectiles. It's possible he's using Pokken Fighters to test out doing projectiles in a 3d realm, as if it wasn't done well enough in Toshinden before.





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"Re(8):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 15:58post reply

quote:

But wait: aren't you thinking in overly modern SF Zero 3 terms instead of SF Zero 2? SFZ2 had air-blocking but no universal air throws that I can recall, and the guard guage was also a non-issue for...most fighting games (? Certainly Street Fighter) until it appeared in SFZ3.


Iirc, air blocking in SFZ2 wasn't too powerful because it didn't work as an all-in-one solution to block the enemy's attacks (aka chicken guard): if you tried to jump away from the opponent when they were about to do a throw, you'd get hit with a normal attack instead because a throw's motion was direction + punch or kick! Things changed after that because the throw motion for SFZ3 and later titles became two buttons.





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"Re(9):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 19:42post reply

To add on the air guard issue: if I recall correctly, one of the numerous reason why Zankurô Musôken was a disaster was the poor way air guard was implemented. Of course, that wasn't the only issue in the game, far from it, but that was one of the worst air guard implementation I've ever seen (everything can be guarded freely... and the game is Samurai Spirits, not MvC3) and that alone was enough to make me worried of air guard in any non-versus game.
The KOF98 one is good enough for me. And the Savior air guard is of course fantastic, but how could it not be.





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"Re(10):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Sat 20 Jun 02:44post reply

quote:
To add on the air guard issue: if I recall correctly, one of the numerous reason why Zankurô Musôken was a disaster was the poor way air guard was implemented. Of course, that wasn't the only issue in the game, far from it, but that was one of the worst air guard implementation I've ever seen (everything can be guarded freely... and the game is Samurai Spirits, not MvC3) and that alone was enough to make me worried of air guard in any non-versus game.
The KOF98 one is good enough for me. And the Savior air guard is of course fantastic, but how could it not be.



Prof is right on the money with the business of throws being committed actions with whiffs. I can't believe I forgot to mention that! It's a big part of Guilty Gear, too, since throws can be option selected with fast normals (for better or for worse). I should check if Xrd still has FDC superjump, which more or less enables the strongest chicken block of any competitive game.

The counterpoint to all this to me will be Akatsuki Blitzkampf, in which everything is air guardable: supers, grounded moves, air moves, special moves... anything that isn't a throw. But the game itself is not an air dash/double jump game: it doesn't even have universal overheads, or short jump, or super jump! What it did have was a guard crush gauge, and one in which air blocking resulted in increased guard crush. Defending by holding up-back in the corner could lead to your opponent landing a full guard gauge guard crush strings! And being guard crushed in that game would see you landing in a vulnerable state for a lengthy time, so it's incredibly dangerous.

I think Vs. series games would be a lot less fun and also competitively less interesting if air blocking wasn't able to cover all bases the way it does. There is so much stuff getting thrown onto the screen all the time which enables continuous rushing strings from the ground and air that it just needs to be able to do that.





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"Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Sun 21 Jun 13:45post reply

I don't have any new SFV news, but in celebration of Birdie's reappearance, I'd like to point to these images in order to drive the point home to Capcom that his SF Zero hair is totally possible and should therefore be implemented ASAP.





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"Re(8):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Sun 21 Jun 14:42post reply

quote:
It's like the developers of SF5 looked at the deliberate, constantly safe pace of SFxT and said "let's not do that."


I think they just looked at SFxT itself and had that exact thought. Even Harada must consider that game a bigger sin than the live action Tekken movie.



That whole game was a sin, period. It wore out it's welcome fairly quickly.

I wonder when the next reveals will be? I'm surprised there's not a leaked list coming out now that the year is half over.





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"Re(9):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Mon 22 Jun 09:43:post reply

I didn't imagine that *this* would've been getting its own news coverage.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/chun-li-s-bouncy-breasts-baffle-street-fighter-fans-at-e3-1.3117326?cmp=rss





[this message was edited by Professor on Mon 22 Jun 10:32]

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"Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 11:38:post reply

quote:
Chun-Li's breasts

I was far more distracted by how unattractively flat-chested her SF4 model was despite her official stats being the same as SF2: B88 W58 H90.

...I guess we can just pull up our Dragon's Crown thread on Sorceress and repost as needed? Certain Americans continue to rail on stupidly with total obliviousness as to how someone could be sexy yet competent. Is a country that finally had a sexual revolution fifty years ago still this confused? I...just don't get it. Also, where is Polly?





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[this message was edited by Maou on Mon 22 Jun 12:01]

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"Re(1):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 12:36:post reply

quote:
Chun-Li's breasts
I was far more distracted by how unattractively flat-chested her SF4 model was despite her official stats being the same as SF2: B88 W58 H90.

...I guess we can just pull up our Dragon's Crown thread on Sorceress and repost as needed? Certain Americans continue to rail on stupidly with total obliviousness as to how someone could be sexy yet competent. Is a country that finally had a sexual revolution fifty years ago still this confused? I...just don't get it. Also, where is Polly?



Slut shaming has a long and proud tradition in America. It's just that it's not as OK to do it to real women anymore, so we have to do it to virtual women. These things don't just magically disappear from the culture, they just migrate.

To be fair though, Chun Li's boobs were bouncing to an uncharicteristically
intense degree in those early videos of SFV. I don't think boobs = bad, but in this case it didn't really fit the character.






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[this message was edited by nobinobita on Mon 22 Jun 12:40]

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"Re(1):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 13:19post reply

quote:
I was far more distracted by how unattractively flat-chested her SF4 model was despite her official stats being the same as SF2: B88 W58 H90.
Bust is a measurement of just that: the bust. It's not an indicator of the breast proportion; that's what the letter is an indicator of. You have to take into account that Chunli is a character who works out, and most likely has some development around her chest and upperback region.





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"Re(2):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 13:47post reply

quote:
It's not an indicator of the breast proportion; that's what the letter is an indicator of. You have to take into account that Chunli is a character who works out, and most likely has some development around her chest and upperback region.

A good point! But then again, I'm pretty sure that my memory isn't too far off.





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"Re(3):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 14:20:post reply

quote:
It's not an indicator of the breast proportion; that's what the letter is an indicator of. You have to take into account that Chunli is a character who works out, and most likely has some development around her chest and upperback region.
A good point! But then again, I'm pretty sure that my memory isn't too far off.



Ah i love those illustrations! Chun Li has always had huge breasts in the art, they just weren't in your face about it (focus has always been on her legs).

Quote from Yoko Shimomura:

"Chun-Li has big thighs, right? So back in the day, I asked Mr. Yasuda, "Why does she have such big thighs?" And he started shouting and went off and was like, "I can't believe you don't understand the appeal." And he started explaining the attraction. And you know, I'm a woman and I asked the question but it kind of got awkward when he started explaining his fetishes. I mean, he has really strong feelings toward his creations. There's a reason for everything being the way that it is. When I heard that, I thought maybe that's something that everybody thinks, but everybody doesn't go out telling everybody. But he just told me."

source:
http://www.polygon.com/a/street-fighter-2-oral-history/chapter-2
(Polygon has some excellent articles sometimes!)

As Doshin has pointed out, muscle contributes greatly to bust size, which is why the men in Street Fighter have always had bust sizes that dwarf the women's.

Chun Li: 88cm (34")
Dhalsim: 107cm (42")
Ryu: 112cm (44")
Ken: 114cm (44")
Boxer: 120cm (47")
Spanish Ninja: 121cm (48")
Guile: 125cm (49")
Sagat: 130cm (51")
Dictator: 129cm (52")
Zangief: 163cm (64")
Blanka: 198cm (77")
E Honda: 212cm (83")

Someone should make one of those bust size profile charts out of this list.






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[this message was edited by nobinobita on Mon 22 Jun 14:23]

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"Re(3):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 14:23post reply

quote:
A good point! But then again, I'm pretty sure that my memory isn't too far off.

Right. Then again, what consistency in measurement could we expect from a company that once listed characters like Zangief as being ONLY 256* lb at 7 feet tall?

*This has been retconned in later iterations, by the way





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"Re(4):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 16:36post reply

quote:
A good point! But then again, I'm pretty sure that my memory isn't too far off.
Right. Then again, what consistency in measurement could we expect from a company that once listed characters like Zangief as being ONLY 256* lb at 7 feet tall? *This has been retconned in later iterations, by the way



Was that mistake made by Capcom or Capcom USA? For example the weights of the characters in Final Fight 2's JP and US versions have great variation. I never understood why. Did the JP side mix up the lbs as kg, or did the USA side decide to buff them up?





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"Re(5):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 19:33post reply

I didn't open the link about Chun-li's boobs because I don't want to feed them more clicks, but I think Capcom already confirmed from the very first day of the public showing that her giggling boobs on player 2 side are a bug, and the intended physics for the final version will be the same as the player 1 side (a little bit like Birdie's chain clipping more severely on the P2 side than on P1).





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"Re(6):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 19:52post reply

Well considering how many people stopped playing her on the main stage after day one, I guess having an errant boob or two at least keeps her in the discussion.





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"Re(1):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 23:36post reply

quote:
...I guess we can just pull up our Dragon's Crown thread on Sorceress and repost as needed? Certain Americans continue to rail on stupidly with total obliviousness as to how someone could be sexy yet competent. Is a country that finally had a sexual revolution fifty years ago still this confused? I...just don't get it. Also, where is Polly?



The complaints in the article weren't about Chun Li's breast size or being "sexy but competent". The complaints were about the ridiculous breast animation that looked like balloons in a wind tunnel.

Even if it was a glitch as Capcom said, it looked laughably bad, and thus people talked about how laughably bad it looked. It doesn't help that other devs have tried and failed at breast animation, sometimes in spectacularly bad ways.





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"Re(2):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Tue 23 Jun 00:06:post reply

quote:
The complaints were about the ridiculous breast animation that looked like balloons in a wind tunnel.

I don't know, there's a pretty song subtext in that article beyond "the physics are inaccurate," even in some of the quotations. It looks like typical puritanical nonsense masquerading as some earnest concern about the supposed "sexualization of the character," whatever that's supposed to mean.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Tue 23 Jun 01:08]

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"Re(3):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Tue 23 Jun 01:27:post reply

quote:
The complaints were about the ridiculous breast animation that looked like balloons in a wind tunnel.
I don't know, there's a pretty song subtext in that article beyond "the physics are inaccurate," even in some of the quotations. It looks like typical American puritanical nonsense masquerading as some earnest concern about the supposed "sexualization of the character," whatever that's supposed to mean.

I'd pretty much agree that her bouncing physics looked somewhat awkward, especially considering this is Capcom-- a company well known to be an expertize in drawing human anatomy (or at least, its design team used to be). Still though, the article sort of made me rethink about modern day's artistic freedom of expression in the west to that of the east.

quote:
Well considering how many people stopped playing her on the main stage after day one, I guess having an errant boob or two at least keeps her in the discussion.

I noticed that too! I'm assuming she isn't that strong as of the current development stage.





[this message was edited by Professor on Tue 23 Jun 01:28]

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"Re(3):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Tue 23 Jun 03:34post reply

quote:
I don't know, there's a pretty song subtext in that article beyond "the physics are inaccurate," even in some of the quotations. It looks like typical puritanical nonsense masquerading as some earnest concern about the supposed "sexualization of the character," whatever that's supposed to mean.


Okay, I've reread the article, and I've still not seen the subtext that you've apparently seen. The closest I can get is a two sentence spot in the article that one could read as a negative explanation of why few people appear to be upset about Chun Li's breast size.

The article itself is largely neutral. It reports quotes (both full tweets and some excerpt words from Reddit) of people complaining about the animation. It has a brief bit on issues with jiggle physics in games. It ends by supporting Capcom's explanation that the animation was a glitch.

As for the tweets, there are nine quoted. Five complain directly about the animation. A sixth is presumably complaining about the animation when he says "Chun Li's alien boobs".

Of the remaining three, one complains about the impracticality of fighting with such breasts. But that ties back to the animation, as large but more restrained breasts wouldn't be "a hazard to herself". For the record, looking at that poster's Twitter feed shows that they had also retweeted someone else specifically complaining about the poorly done animation.

The final two tweets instead talk about Chun Li's nipple bulges ... in the context of Capcom's explanation that the animation was a glitch. The article takes those tweets as posts by people who question Capcom's explanation, which is also how I read those tweets. I don't see any "typical puritanical nonsense" or the like. I admit that I haven't read through the replies to the article, but that seems a bit beside the point.





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"Re(4):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Tue 23 Jun 04:46:post reply

Oh, that's a fair reading that gives the author the benefit of the doubt, and it's certainly not the worst article---better than the trash you see from Kotaku. But in a broader context, we have yet another sensationalist article drawing attention to the subject while simultaneously tut-tutting it, which says a great deal to me culturally that the literal article text may not. Here's what I see:
quote:
fans rolling their eyes
these boobs would be a nightmare
appearances of female video game characters to spark controversy
"Really knuckling down on that grossness, huh Capcom?"
chun-li has her nipples sticking straight out?
Here's what it sounds like: my old high school administrators who seemed just a little too concerned about the length of skirts on the female classmates' uniforms, or some pious but conflicted kid (or censor) who's just so "concerned" about this terrible problem that he can't stop looking at it.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Tue 23 Jun 04:50]

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"Re(5):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Tue 23 Jun 05:11post reply

I'm surprised a bigger deal isn't made of the fact that Cammy's nipples have a visible effect on the contour of her outfit.





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"Re(6):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Wed 8 Jul 01:06post reply

The SF5 beta will feature stages that are apparently still in their beta phase as well. Those sheep could use some more work but I do like that something from Monster Hunter up and died in the lake.





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"Re(7):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Wed 8 Jul 02:02:post reply

quote:
The SF5 beta will feature stages that are apparently still in their beta phase as well. Those sheep could use some more work but I do like that something from Monster Hunter up and died in the lake.



Ok I HAVE to point something out about the first stage being shown. It's in New Zealand. It could be nowhere else on Earth. The reason why? The blue colored birds there. Those are Takahe birds!


Oh, Combofiend does mention it's New Zealand! Haha, should've read the entire article.





[this message was edited by Spoon on Wed 8 Jul 02:03]

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"Re(8):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Wed 8 Jul 07:13post reply

Another stage already, this one in Brazil

Evidently we're also being teased a new character with this. However despite all of Ono's best misdirection efforts I don't think anyone believes it'll be Blanka.





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"Re(8):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Wed 8 Jul 07:30post reply

quote:
It's in New Zealand. It could be nowhere else on Earth. The reason why? The blue colored birds there. Those are Takahe birds!

That looks...pretty cool! Even though it's NZ, my first instinctual thought was that it was the Venezuela boss stage where Vega wastes Nash in SFZero 2, especially since we have Franken-Nash this time around. Hmm!





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"Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Wed 8 Jul 08:51post reply

quote:
The SF5 beta will feature stages that are apparently still in their beta phase as well. Those sheep could use some more work but I do like that something from Monster Hunter up and died in the lake.


Ok I HAVE to point something out about the first stage being shown. It's in New Zealand. It could be nowhere else on Earth. The reason why? The blue colored birds there. Those are Takahe birds!


Oh, Combofiend does mention it's New Zealand! Haha, should've read the entire article.



I was wondering what birds those were? Thanks! There's also an iguana on the rock there.

What I don't like about the stage is the Nessie sighting, or the dinosaur skeleton in the background. Hopefully those get altered somehow. Nessie is in Scotland, not New Zealand.

The Brazil stage looks cool. Might be in Rio? I don't remember that globe thing on the hill when I was in Rio a few years ago. But of course, new things come all the time.





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"Re(1):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Wed 8 Jul 09:55post reply

So that Ken Bogard stuff...?





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"Re(1):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Wed 8 Jul 23:17post reply

quote:
The Brazil stage looks cool. Might be in Rio? I don't remember that globe thing on the hill when I was in Rio a few years ago. But of course, new things come all the time.


Apparently the stage is modeled on the Escadaria Selarón so it looks like you're right about the location. I haven't been to Rio myself so I can't even guess what that thing is on the hill but it looks like a giant World Cup trophy.

quote:
So that Ken Bogard stuff...?

Good question! From what I remember most of what he said seemed like it could have been deduced just from reasonable guesswork. The big deciding factor will be his leaks about possible new characters. I guess we will have to wait for the announcement of a brand new character before we can be certain about his leaks. Trouble is, by now we are hip-deep in SF5 rumors so trying to figure out what's possibly legit and what's the result of someone's overactive imagination is a tough task.





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"Re(2):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Wed 8 Jul 23:54:post reply

quote:
Trouble is, by now we are hip-deep in SF5 rumors so trying to figure out what's possibly legit and what's the result of someone's overactive imagination is a tough task.


Oh, like this?

Huh, I wish I could be more interested in SFV, but I feel a bit like it's just a higher-res SFIV. New stages look cool though! Here's hoping that some new character reveals are coming soon (by new I mean new to the series, not just "hey, it's Dhalsim!").





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[this message was edited by karasu on Wed 8 Jul 23:56]

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"Re(2):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Thu 9 Jul 02:15post reply

quote:
The Brazil stage looks cool. Might be in Rio? I don't remember that globe thing on the hill when I was in Rio a few years ago. But of course, new things come all the time.

Apparently the stage is modeled on the Escadaria Selarón so it looks like you're right about the location. I haven't been to Rio myself so I can't even guess what that thing is on the hill but it looks like a giant World Cup trophy.



That's what someone on Capcom Unity had said, too. Yeah, there's some elements of Lapa and Escadaria Selaron in there. I'm kinda glad the designers moved away from the jungle or river theme for the Brazil stage and moved it to Rio.

I'm still mixed on the New Zealand stage. I do NOT dig that skeleton thing in the lake, or the Nessie sighting. It looks unnatural for a SF game, just like when they brought the Jurassic stage from SFxT into USFIV.





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"Re(2):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Thu 9 Jul 04:02post reply

quote:
The Brazil stage looks cool. Might be in Rio? I don't remember that globe thing on the hill when I was in Rio a few years ago. But of course, new things come all the time.

Apparently the stage is modeled on the Escadaria Selarón so it looks like you're right about the location. I haven't been to Rio myself so I can't even guess what that thing is on the hill but it looks like a giant World Cup trophy.



I don't remember where I heard this but apparently what's actually in that place is a large statue of Jesus, so Capcom I guess just decided to avoid any religious confrontation.





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"Re(3):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Thu 9 Jul 05:51post reply

quote:
The Brazil stage looks cool. Might be in Rio? I don't remember that globe thing on the hill when I was in Rio a few years ago. But of course, new things come all the time.

Apparently the stage is modeled on the Escadaria Selarón so it looks like you're right about the location. I haven't been to Rio myself so I can't even guess what that thing is on the hill but it looks like a giant World Cup trophy.


I don't remember where I heard this but apparently what's actually in that place is a large statue of Jesus, so Capcom I guess just decided to avoid any religious confrontation.



If they did,they'd take away from the realness of the stage. That'd be like having a Paris stage and having a statue of a croissant instead of the Eiffel Tower.





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"April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Thu 9 Jul 05:58post reply

So why is Siliconera posting joke articles like this now?





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"Re(1):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Thu 9 Jul 06:06post reply

quote:
So why is Siliconera posting joke articles like this now?

Seriously. Two unpopular characters from an entry no one played, and two unpopular one-off characters last seen 1998? I will eat my Ishmael's hat if this is even remotely true.

I'm still holding out for Skullomania, though.





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"Re(2):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Thu 9 Jul 06:08post reply

quote:
Karin is unpopular?
Well, maybe in the US, but in Japan is apparently another story.

Then again...





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"Re(3):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Thu 9 Jul 06:18:post reply

Whoops, I waited too long to post this and afterward all of my comments had basically been made by other folks. Oh well!





You have to carefully reproduce the world of "Castlevania" in the solemn atmosphere.

[this message was edited by karasu on Thu 9 Jul 06:19]

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"Re(3):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Thu 9 Jul 06:20:post reply

quote:
Karin is unpopular?Well, maybe in the US, but in Japan is apparently another story.

I mean, Karin was a character in a Comic Gamest spinoff story on Zero 2 that some lunatic thought would be fun to toss in among the cast of thousands in Zero 3. Even if she happened to have been "popular" in Japan or the US and not just a (fun) throwaway character, I don't think that stretched beyond the world of Zero 3. Is she "relevant?" 17 years later with no word, I'd say no.

Edit: Nooo, Karasu, stick around, and let's invent a new rumor about how Remy is now confirmed. Preferrably via Magic Box.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Thu 9 Jul 06:26]

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"Re(4):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Thu 9 Jul 06:23post reply

Siliconera announced FF7 remake one day earlier and no one believed them.
I want to believe!





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"Re(4):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Thu 9 Jul 06:28post reply

quote:
17 years later with no word, I'd say no.
I think you're forgetting Capcom Fighting Jam here, which happened in 2004 (even if it was a simple cut-n-paste job). Not to mention her guest appearance in SNK vs Capcom: Match of the Millennium in 1999, and a Capcom calendar in 2012. I'll avoid referring to the internet polls, though.





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"Re(5):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Thu 9 Jul 06:38:post reply

quote:
I think you're forgetting Capcom Fighting Jam here
Ahahaha, I didn't think I'd ever hear that phrase uttered in my life. Okay, you've got me there, though if anything that game being her only other appearance is an unfortunate monument to her irrelevance.

Ditto to the unrepresentative appearance of fan support for unpopular characters in internet threads. Sad to say, but in this day and age, Capcom knows full well that most people don't give two god-damns about characters who are not Ryu and other old-timers. SF III bombing while Zero 3 exploded really says it all. (Note that this isn't attached to the game's merits. It didn't do Capcom a bit of good when Third Strike sold zero copies, only to be rediscovered as a technical/artistic masterpiece by the small circle of hardcore players years later.)

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Karin as a fun "curio" in the same way I love Q. God, I miss Q.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Thu 9 Jul 06:40]

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"Re(5):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Thu 9 Jul 06:39post reply

quote:
Siliconera announced FF7 remake one day earlier and no one believed them.
I want to believe!


FIXED.

quote:
Edit: Nooo, Karasu, stick around, and let's invent a new rumor about how Remy is now confirmed. Preferrably via Magic Box.


I suppose at this point I have as much credibility as anyone, so why not? How about this: Retsu, Blade from the Street Fighter Movie Game, and the movie version of Blanka-- all confirmed! As well as a Portland, Oregon stage that takes place in front of Voodoo Doughnut!

Too bad I don't have the time to hack together a convincing mockup!





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"Re(6):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Thu 9 Jul 09:30post reply

If Mika is really confirmed I hope they gave her the same treatment as all the Alpha characters. Seriously, she should be about like this in SFV, no question or doubt in my mind.





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"Re(7):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Thu 9 Jul 10:51post reply

quote:
Seriously, she should be about like this in SFV, no question or doubt in my mind.

Don't worry, they'll redesign Mika and most likely give you some initial disappointment with her change, until you grievingly accept it later.

Anyway, even if it is Siliconera, make sure you're taking this information in with a grain of salt, because it seems rather wishlisty and out of the blue.





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"Re(8):Brazil and a Kiwi stage" , posted Thu 9 Jul 23:45post reply

So Siliconera has posted articles that seem to have no basis outside of internet rumors, which means that when anyone wants to provide evidence for these unsubstantiated claims they will point to the Siliconera as proof that the rumors are true. What a crazy ouroboros of information this turned out to be. The only certain thing I've learned from all these rumors is the fact that Magic Box is still around. How is that possible?





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"I miss Q" , posted Fri 10 Jul 00:43post reply

Over at Capcom Unity there are tons of people dying for Mika and Karin. I don't see why so much hype over them personally. If Karin makes it in, please do away with the school girl theme and go somewhat along the lines of Lili's outfit.

I would like to see Q make a comeback. Anybody else? I think he has potential, and the mystery around him needs to be solved.





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"Re(1):I miss Q" , posted Fri 10 Jul 01:08:post reply

quote:
I would like to see Q make a comeback. Anybody else? I think he has potential, and the mystery around him needs to be solved.


I'm with you, but I think the Q dream died when they showed how Birdie plays in SF5, which is too similar to Q to allow both at least in the first version of the game (limited cast and all). Slow but wide reaching normals, self-buff, big hurt box...

Actually, I'm starting to wonder if the Q situation at Capcom might be like the K999 situation, a.k.a. "we shall never mention his name ever again". I don't think the holders of the IP of Robot Keiji complained officially, but...





[this message was edited by Iggy on Fri 10 Jul 01:13]

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"Re(2):I miss Q" , posted Fri 10 Jul 01:48post reply

quote:
I would like to see Q make a comeback. Anybody else? I think he has potential, and the mystery around him needs to be solved.

I'm with you, but I think the Q dream died when they showed how Birdie plays in SF5, which is too similar to Q to allow both at least in the first version of the game (limited cast and all). Slow but wide reaching normals, self-buff, big hurt box...

Actually, I'm starting to wonder if the Q situation at Capcom might be like the K999 situation, a.k.a. "we shall never mention his name ever again". I don't think the holders of the IP of Robot Keiji complained officially, but...



I think you're right about the Q/Birdie comparison. It's a shame because I'm a fan of both characters and I'm ecstatic with the return of Birdie. I think his changes have made him more interesting.

I also see this as a similar situation with Remy. With Charlie in the game, it really robs Remy any chances of returning. Anything is possible but I doubt it. I'll probably really enjoy using Charlie but I always wanted Remy to return to a future game. He was always a good variation of Guile.

So far, it seems that Capcom have been mindful of providing good revamps of the classics. My optimism continues that this game will continue the trend started by SF4 in gaining more interest by new/casual players while providing satisfying play for veterans. (Thank goodness for Sony.)





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"Re(2):I miss Iggy" , posted Fri 10 Jul 01:50:post reply

quote:
Actually, I'm starting to wonder if the Q situation at Capcom might be like the K999 situation, a.k.a. "we shall never mention his name ever again". I don't think the holders of the IP of Robot Keiji complained officially, but...

Hahah, yeah, you're probably right. Capcom got the last laugh taking "inspiration" for dictator Vega from comic characters that are less likely to be remembered now than he is, but given that the vast majority of the public never even heard of Third Strike, Q probably can't squeak by.

Also, you are about fifty posts away from breaking the board. Have you planned your apocalypse post yet? Has Guillaume? We can fete you like it's Carnival.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 10 Jul 01:56]

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"Re(3):I miss Iggy" , posted Fri 10 Jul 02:42post reply

quote:
Also, you are about fifty posts away from breaking the board. Have you planned your apocalypse post yet? Has Guillaume? We can fete you like it's Carnival.


I somehow completely forgot this happened even though I posted in the damned thread. Then again, it might have been my alter-ego posting at that time so who knows.





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"Remy should come back" , posted Fri 10 Jul 03:44post reply

Yeah it is a shame about Remy. SF needs a proper French representative (Abel I feel don't count since he's created by Shadoloo) and I liked his variation on Guile/Charlie's fighting style.





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"Re(1):Remy should come back" , posted Fri 10 Jul 04:33post reply

Ken announced at comic con. Looks pretty different in terms of design and play.





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"Re(2):Remy should come back" , posted Fri 10 Jul 04:43post reply

quote:
Ken announced at comic con. Looks pretty different in terms of design and play.



I like how they updated him to not look too much like a Shoto. Good job Capcom!

Apparently from what I hear, this game takes place after SF3.





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"Re(2):Remy should come back" , posted Fri 10 Jul 06:18:post reply

Trailer

Who is the one at the end of the trailer?
A new character?
A new design for an old character?





[this message was edited by Lord SNK on Fri 10 Jul 06:20]

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"Re(3):I miss Iggy" , posted Fri 10 Jul 06:29post reply

quote:

Hahah, yeah, you're probably right. Capcom got the last laugh taking "inspiration" for dictator Vega from comic characters that are less likely to be remembered now than he is,



Given that one of the major streamers of Capcom tournaments is Team Spooky, who always end the stream with a clip from the Riki-Oh movie (YOU'RE ALL FREE NOW!), awareness of Washizaki may actually be on the rise!

Also, given how they've significantly revamped the gameplay of some old characters, I don't think that any concerns about "X plays too much like Y so shouldn't be in the game" should be held TOO strongly. If Birdie could fly (what a horrifying thought...), he'd actually probably more resemble Merkava from UNIEL.





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"Re(3):Remy should come back" , posted Fri 10 Jul 08:11post reply

quote:
Trailer

Who is the one at the end of the trailer?
A new character?
A new design for an old character?

Shadow Honda, now with dredlocks. That's why he has yellow eyes, just like a Persona shadow.

It's possibly some kind of New Zealand character.





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"Re(4):Remy should come back" , posted Fri 10 Jul 10:13post reply

So who had "Ken" on their SF5 bingo cards? I wonder how many purported leaked lists were debunked with this latest addition to the cast.





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"Re(5):Remy should come back" , posted Fri 10 Jul 10:18:post reply

quote:
So who had "Ken" on their SF5 bingo cards? I wonder how many purported leaked lists were debunked with this latest addition to the cast.

To be honest, Ken seemed like such a shoe-in anyway, and I kind of guessed they'd change him up in some way because of how they wanted to avoid clones.

Also there was this rumor list which I can't find the original listing to.

EDIT:
His name is Nodim Portent





[this message was edited by Doshin on Fri 10 Jul 12:23]

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"SF's first New Zealand character?" , posted Fri 10 Jul 11:58post reply

quote:
So who had "Ken" on their SF5 bingo cards? I wonder how many purported leaked lists were debunked with this latest addition to the cast.
To be honest, Ken seemed like such a shoe-in anyway, and I kind of guessed they'd change him up in some way because of how they wanted to avoid clones.

Also there was this rumor list which I can't find the original listing to.



That new character I am already hearing buzz about that he could be a New Zealand Maori type of fighter. If he is, then that'll be awesome! NZ has never gotten a rep of any kind in SF or any fighter!





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"Re(1):SF's first New Zealand character?" , posted Fri 10 Jul 17:30post reply

So the new character has to be relevant to the story because he has a V on his face? New boss?





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"Re(3):Remy should come back" , posted Fri 10 Jul 17:50post reply

quote:
Ken announced at comic con. Looks pretty different in terms of design and play.


I like how they updated him to not look too much like a Shoto. Good job Capcom!



SNK applied that kind of redesign to Ryo in Fatal Fury Wild Amition ages ago.
I wish they'd stuck with it - it looked cooler and de-orangified Ryo a bit.
Now if SNKP finally applies it in a more committed manner it'll probably be treated like copying SF by ignorants even though they did it first...


As for the new guy, for some reason I'm reminded of Muscle Bomber.





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"Re(3):I miss Iggy" , posted Fri 10 Jul 19:29post reply

Goddamit, I forgot about that thing.
That was a low blow, Maou. You not-fighting-like-gentlemen-person.





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"Re(4):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Fri 10 Jul 22:57post reply

quote:
Karin is unpopular?Well, maybe in the US, but in Japan is apparently another story.
I mean, Karin was a character in a Comic Gamest spinoff story on Zero 2 that some lunatic thought would be fun to toss in among the cast of thousands in Zero 3. Even if she happened to have been "popular" in Japan or the US and not just a (fun) throwaway character, I don't think that stretched beyond the world of Zero 3. Is she "relevant?" 17 years later with no word, I'd say no.



There was a rumor that back in the days of the SFIV upgrades, Karin was actually highly requested. Problem is, as you said, she wasn't really created by Capcom, so there were licensing issues preventing her inclusion. I don't know if it's true, but it's unlikely that she was left out of the SFIV upgrades because of popularity - I mean, how popular are characters like Hugo, Elena or Adon?

Now, about the current rumor about the SFV cast, it's weird to see that this game could have Karin and Nash... but not Sakura and Guile (who are not only much more popular, but who are strongly tied to Karin's and Nash's backstories and motivations). Then again, if Capcom decided to put Birdie in this game and redesign Ken to the point where he is very different from Ryu, I'd rather not doubt any rumor, no matter how weird it is.





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"Re(5):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Fri 10 Jul 23:17post reply

quote:
Problem is, as you said, she wasn't really created by Capcom, so there were licensing issues preventing her inclusion.
I still don't know where that comes from, but the licensing issue story is false.
Regardless of her origin as a manga character, Karin is owned by Capcom and has appeared in the NGPC crossovers and Capcom Fighting Jam. Not the most stellar of CVs, but there is no licensing issue blocking Karin from appearing anywhere.





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"Re(5):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Sat 11 Jul 00:12post reply

quote:
Now, about the current rumor about the SFV cast, it's weird to see that this game could have Karin and Nash... but not Sakura and Guile (who are not only much more popular, but who are strongly tied to Karin's and Nash's backstories and motivations). Then again, if Capcom decided to put Birdie in this game and redesign Ken to the point where he is very different from Ryu, I'd rather not doubt any rumor, no matter how weird it is.



My preference would be for the cast to be 1/3 classics, 1/3 new and 1/3 heavily revamped classics. Right now it looks to me that Ryu, Chun Li, Cammy have the least amount of changes and Birdie, Nash, Vega and Ken have a lot more revamping.

I am perfectly okay with some fan favorites to be missing. For example, if Zangief and Sakura were to be missing I would be okay with that. If they were to return, I'd want them heavily revamped. But that's just me.

It looks like Capcom is taking some calculated risks here and that's good. SF4 with the focus system replaced by the v-system is a good thing but you need to revamp the characters or we'll get bored a lot faster.





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"Re(1):SF's first New Zealand character?" , posted Sat 11 Jul 01:15post reply

quote:
So who had "Ken" on their SF5 bingo cards? I wonder how many purported leaked lists were debunked with this latest addition to the cast.
To be honest, Ken seemed like such a shoe-in anyway, and I kind of guessed they'd change him up in some way because of how they wanted to avoid clones.


Personally I like this continuation of the pre-SFIV move of differentiating Ken from Ryu that was started way back in SFII Turbo. I know, I know, Ken's gameplay is much different from Ryu's but I enjoy the attempt they're making to change him up even more.
quote:

That new character I am already hearing buzz about that he could be a New Zealand Maori type of fighter. If he is, then that'll be awesome! NZ has never gotten a rep of any kind in SF or any fighter!


I agree, it would be great to have a Maori world warrior! The Maori have a fantastic martial history so a character like that would fit right in. If that's this guy's story though, Capcom got the Maori look about as well as they captured Brazilians with Blanka or yoga with Dhalsim, haha!





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"Re(6):Remy should come back" , posted Sat 11 Jul 01:48post reply

quote:
Also there was this rumor list which I can't find the original listing to.

So most of the rumors lists are still valid, meaning we will still have plenty of debate and groundless speculation? That's good news, I didn't want the fun to end too soon.





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"Re(2):SF's first New Zealand character?" , posted Sat 11 Jul 02:31post reply

quote:

Personally I like this continuation of the pre-SFIV move of differentiating Ken from Ryu that was started way back in SFII Turbo. I know, I know, Ken's gameplay is much different from Ryu's but I enjoy the attempt they're making to change him up even more.



There has never been a numbered/mainline SF game that did not have Ken and Ryu in it, a trend I don't ever seem changing. The new hurricane kicks harken to MvC Ken-mode Ryu or MvC2 Ken, but Ken having a diving special (that looks suspiciously like Sol's new flaming dive!) is something new. Ken still seems to have the shoto staples of fireball/DP/tatsu, but more differentiation is a welcome thing.

But man that hair of his needs fixing. If only I could find some pictures of beta SF4 Ken!





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"tolerable BGM" , posted Sat 11 Jul 09:06:post reply

More important that the Maori mystery may be that they appear to have thrown in the towel on making new music and just remixed old themes for the BGM, now available midway down this post! I suppose I'd complain about how grating this instrumentation is if the new SFIV music hadn't been so heroically shitty.

...well, I guess I liked the overpass theme.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 11 Jul 09:13]

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"Re(1):tolerable BGM" , posted Sat 11 Jul 09:13post reply

quote:
More important that the Maori mystery may be that they appear to have thrown in the towel and just remixed old themes for the BGM, now available midway down this post! I suppose I'd complain about how grating this new instrumentation is if the SFIV music hadn't been so heroically shitty.

...well, I guess I liked the overpass theme.


I think maybe after the late 2000s, Capcoms BGMs sort of died down. They were downright amazing from the 90s and early 2000s. Not surprised to hear this!





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"Re(2):SF's first New Zealand character?" , posted Sat 11 Jul 09:13post reply

quote:

Personally I like this continuation of the pre-SFIV move of differentiating Ken from Ryu that was started way back in SFII Turbo. I know, I know, Ken's gameplay is much different from Ryu's but I enjoy the attempt they're making to change him up even more.



He has been progressively more different from Ryu in every game since CE but he was never considered that different as long as his default outfit was almost exactly the same. Even though in SF4 you could totally give him (and Ryu) a different outfit to make them look even more different, the stigma of his palette swap days remained because of his default outfit. So now that even his default outfit has changed, maybe he'll finally be able to move out of the "clone" part of his existence. Even his damage animations are different from Ryu's now, which is something that I'm pretty sure has never happened before.





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"Re(1):tolerable BGM" , posted Sat 11 Jul 09:16post reply

quote:
More important that the Maori mystery may be that they appear to have thrown in the towel on making new music and just remixed old themes for the BGM, now available midway down this post! I suppose I'd complain about how grating this instrumentation is if the new SFIV music hadn't been so heroically shitty.

...well, I guess I liked the overpass theme.

It could have been dubstep.

I'm okay with most of these tunes, though they do come off as generic, still. Not bad, but not amazing. Not everything can be the SFA soundtrack.





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"Re(3):SF's first New Zealand character?" , posted Sat 11 Jul 10:34post reply

quote:

Even his damage animations are different from Ryu's now, which is something that I'm pretty sure has never happened before.



*begins poring over SF2 puking animations obsessively*





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"Re(2):tolerable BGM" , posted Sat 11 Jul 20:03post reply

quote:
I think maybe after the late 2000s, Capcoms BGMs sort of died down. They were downright amazing from the 90s and early 2000s. Not surprised to hear this!

One of the great things MvC3 did was to call back several of the Capcom composers of old to give the entire game the real Capcom sound.
Unfortunately, if I recall correctly, they also called the SF4 guy for a couple of tracks, and they were as lame as his original work.





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"Re(3):tolerable BGM" , posted Sun 12 Jul 01:58post reply

quote:
I think maybe after the late 2000s, Capcoms BGMs sort of died down. They were downright amazing from the 90s and early 2000s. Not surprised to hear this!
One of the great things MvC3 did was to call back several of the Capcom composers of old to give the entire game the real Capcom sound.
Unfortunately, if I recall correctly, they also called the SF4 guy for a couple of tracks, and they were as lame as his original work.



I liked the Africa (Airfield) stage a lot. That was done really well. Also the India and Vietnam Remix was decent. But apart from those 3, I didn't care much for the rest.





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"Re(4):tolerable BGM" , posted Sun 12 Jul 11:24post reply

Guy's theme in SF4 was quite a good rendition. There's an overall trend in shifting the OST towards sounding more dance-ish in SF4, which to me doesn't totally buck the trend of styling the music in the SF game after something contemporary, e.g. the hip-hop and rap of 3S.





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"Re(5): intolerable BGM" , posted Sun 12 Jul 11:48:post reply

quote:
something contemporary, e.g. the hip-hop and rap of 3S.

But, but the 3S soundtrack is such dross compared to the smooth grooves of the first two! "3S: as slow-paced as SFZero2 without the cheerfulness, as dull as the dumber SFZero3 tracks without the fun bass."

I'm going to take inspiration from Doshin's comment and say SFV should be purely and ridiculously in one style, so let's make it dubstep. I would also dig an all-bluegrass or all-ska SFV.

Or maybe they can save us a lot of time and just use Shimomura's tracks straight from SFII.





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"Re(6): intolerable BGM" , posted Sun 12 Jul 12:45:post reply

quote:
something contemporary, e.g. the hip-hop and rap of 3S.
But, but the 3S soundtrack is such dross compared to the smooth grooves of the first two! "3S: as slow-paced as SFZero2 without the cheerfulness, as dull as the dumber SFZero3 tracks without the fun bass."

I'm going to take inspiration from Doshin's comment and say SFV should be purely and ridiculously in one style, so let's make it dubstep. I would also dig an all-bluegrass or all-ska SFV.

Or maybe they can save us a lot of time and just use Shimomura's tracks straight from SFII.


Oh my! Did he say all bluegrass? From Kentucky? lol. I say all-dance/electronic:
[/Like this]





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[this message was edited by neo0r0chiaku on Sun 12 Jul 12:47]

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"Re(6): intolerable BGM" , posted Sun 12 Jul 13:03post reply

quote:
But, but the 3S soundtrack is such dross compared to the smooth grooves of the first two! "3S: as slow-paced as SFZero2 without the cheerfulness, as dull as the dumber SFZero3 tracks without the fun bass."



The problem for me with the 2I OST is that it's TOO smooth. It's smooth to the point where there are tracks which I have no idea how to associate with the character, like Ibuki's theme or Ryu's theme. The music is totally enjoyable to listen to, and I don't want to insist that all my fighting game music has to have pounding bass and pulsing intense rhythm, but a lot of the time when I was first playing 2I I found myself wondering if this was some hacked/bootleg version with the music swapped.

Some of the songs in 2I sound like precursors to Nujabes tracks, which I can dig.

I do appreciate that SF kept bringing new styles of music into its games, though! I quite liked the SFA3 music, even though it seemed to veer far away from the iconic theme songs of SF2. I still think it has some amazing visual/audio moments, like when the -ism slams into place at the start of the match.

quote:

I'm going to take inspiration from Doshin's comment and say SFV should be purely and ridiculously in one style, so let's make it dubstep. I would also dig an all-bluegrass or all-ska SFV.



If we're going all-ska, I instead propose a move to jazz fusion, except instead of the marimba-infused 2I style, we take what seems to be jazz's noisecore, Moon Hooch. They literally sound like a bunch of angry geese at times, which makes me think they would actually be a better for a new Fatal Fury.


quote:

Or maybe they can save us a lot of time and just use Shimomura's tracks straight from SFII.



Ooh, fun experiment: suppose that's what they did for all returning characters. In order to maintain that same spirit, what do they do for new characters/characters that didn't exist for SF2?





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"Re(7): intolerable BGM" , posted Sun 12 Jul 13:13post reply

quote:

Oh my! Did he say all bluegrass? From Kentucky?

Hell yes, son! I think a hyper-speed banjo theme is the only way I would ever forgive seeing Dan's dumb unfunny shtick in a Street Fighter game again. Just imagine. Ryu can have his theme on sped-up tsugaru-jamisen, the closest Japanese equivalent.

quote:
jazz fusion
I see no reason not to get as funky as all get-up, per past precedent.
quote:
what do they do for new characters/characters that didn't exist for SF2?
Oh, I think you know.





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"Re(8): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 13 Jul 00:40post reply

Sorry to break it to you, but the SFII OST was already jazz fusion.





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"Re(7): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 13 Jul 02:03post reply

While I'm not huge on SF5's music yet I am digging the heavy guitar focus in those themes, and I certainly like it more than the electronic fly-buzzing that comprised the SF4 arrangements. The stage music so far is strange, though. It doesn't really seem to fit that well.

quote:

The problem for me with the 2I OST is that it's TOO smooth. It's smooth to the point where there are tracks which I have no idea how to associate with the character, like Ibuki's theme or Ryu's theme. The music is totally enjoyable to listen to, and I don't want to insist that all my fighting game music has to have pounding bass and pulsing intense rhythm, but a lot of the time when I was first playing 2I I found myself wondering if this was some hacked/bootleg version with the music swapped.



To be fair Ibuki's original SF3 theme had a shamisen-like instrument in the melody position as opposed to the more generic piano of 2i, so I guess the thinking was that even without the Japanese flavoring it would just stay connected to the character by association. I do like the 2i version better (the original was actually kind of dull) but like you said it's a little harder to associate it with Ibuki on its own.





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"Re(8): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 13 Jul 02:47post reply

quote:

Oh my! Did he say all bluegrass? From Kentucky?
Hell yes, son! I think a hyper-speed banjo theme is the only way I would ever forgive seeing Dan's dumb unfunny shtick in a Street Fighter game again. Just imagine. Ryu can have his theme on sped-up tsugaru-jamisen, the closest Japanese equivalent.

jazz fusion I see no reason not to get as funky as all get-up, per past precedent.what do they do for new characters/characters that didn't exist for SF2? Oh, I think you know.


Wow, I have not heard that since my days in Frankfort!! Well, my opinion SFA3 and SF3 3S had the best OSTs in the series. I think the classic vintage music, like the one you mentioned tsugaru, fits more well in Samurai Spirits.





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"Re(9): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 13 Jul 03:47post reply

quote:
Sorry to break it to you, but the SFII OST was already jazz fusion.



Zangief's theme certainly felt that way! Could all of it be categorized that way, though? It certainly seemed like a lot of ending/credit songs of the 90s had some sort of smooth jazz element to it. I don't know enough about music, though, so do enlighten me!





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"Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 13 Jul 04:21:post reply

quote:

Zangief's theme certainly felt that way! Could all of it be categorized that way, though? It certainly seemed like a lot of ending/credit songs of the 90s had some sort of smooth jazz element to it. I don't know enough about music, though, so do enlighten me!



I feel that the best way to start this discussion is to link this: Guile's Jam.. ..or is it?

If you take your time and listen to the big names in Japanese jazz fusion* you'll start to see the big picture which is that there isn't much originality in 80's video game soundtracks. Back then video game music composers just took what was popular and didn't need vocals. Jazz fusion was perfect for that. These guys and gals companies like Sega and Capcom hired were just musically talented engineers, not really composers. Not people who could churn out an album full of original hits. If they could, they would not be working for video game companies would they?

For example, Out Run took everything possible from Naoya Matsuoka's body of work. Even the idea of sounds of the waves splashing is from Matsuoka's album. They just transferred those ideas into a video game. Just like the characters from Street Fighter are just based on anime/manga influences. You get what I mean.

These are just my opinions, as I'm sure some people don't want to hear this kind of stuff.

*T-Square, Casiopea, Naniwa Experience, Naoya Matsuoka, Prism, etc they're all on Youtube.





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[this message was edited by TheRedKnight on Sun 26 Jul 19:14]

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"Re(2):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 13 Jul 07:13:post reply

quote:

Zangief's theme certainly felt that way! Could all of it be categorized that way, though? It certainly seemed like a lot of ending/credit songs of the 90s had some sort of smooth jazz element to it. I don't know enough about music, though, so do enlighten me!


I feel that the best way to start this disctussion is to link this: Guile's Jam.. ..or is it?

If you take your time and listen to the big names in Japanese jazz fusion* you'll start to see the big picture which is that there isn't much originality in 80's video game soundtracks. Back then video game music composers just took what was popular and didn't need vocals. Jazz fusion was perfect for that. These guys and gals companies like Sega and Capcom hired were just musically talented engineers, not really composers. Not people who could churn out an album full of original hits. If they could, they would not be working for video game companies would they?

For example, Out Run took everything possible from Naoya Matsuoka's body of work. Even the idea of sounds of the waves splashing is from Matsuoka's album. They just transferred those ideas into a video game. Just like the characters from Street Fighter are just based on anime/manga influences. You get what I mean.

These are just my opinions, as I'm sure some people don't want to hear this kind of stuff.


-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --

Its funny how you brought this up because lately i have been adding to a youtube playlist of musics or songs that VGMs from the 90s sampled from back in the 80s and 70s. Many VGMs sampled from various types of music and artists. Dance, Electronic, rock, Jazz etc. I was baffled with some of the tracks I found from video games. nowadays, people are using these VGMs from the 90s into songs at this point of time. Sample to be sampled!!!

quote:
*T-Square, Casiopea, Naniwa Experience, Naoya Matsuoka, Prism, etc they're all on


Japanese jazz fusion from the 70s and 80s. Sounds like i will be having some new music to listen to this week at work! Thanks for this information. The music sounds great!





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[this message was edited by neo0r0chiaku on Mon 13 Jul 07:21]

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"Re(2):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 13 Jul 07:16post reply

quote:

I feel that the best way to start this disctussion is to link this: Guile's Jam.. ..or is it?

If you take your time and listen to the big names in Japanese jazz fusion* you'll start to see the big picture which is that there isn't much originality in 80's video game soundtracks. Back then video game music composers just took what was popular and didn't need vocals. Jazz fusion was perfect for that. These guys and gals companies like Sega and Capcom hired were just musically talented engineers, not really composers. Not people who could churn out an album full of original hits. If they could, they would not be working for video game companies would they?

For example, Out Run took everything possible from Naoya Matsuoka's body of work. Even the idea of sounds of the waves splashing is from Matsuoka's album. They just transferred those ideas into a video game. Just like the characters from Street Fighter are just based on anime/manga influences. You get what I mean.

These are just my opinions, as I'm sure some people don't want to hear this kind of stuff.


Wha...WOW! I've understood for quite a while that there was an entire history of Japanese popular music that was relatively unknown in the west and that was amazing-- Western artists here and there have been sampling some of it lately, but that's what, 30 years too late? I think you've fortunately/unfortunately opened my eyes to a bunch of music I can now obsess over. So... thanks! It's also encouraging to hear that for once these kinds of tracks are easily found.

I'm hoping that maybe I can convince you to start a new thread to discuss this exact sort of thing, removed from the specificity of a SFV thread.





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"Re(3):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Tue 14 Jul 09:31post reply

quote:

I feel that the best way to start this disctussion is to link this: Guile's Jam.. ..or is it?

....

These are just my opinions, as I'm sure some people don't want to hear this kind of stuff.



I definitely want to hear this kind of stuff. Clicking that link blew my mind.

Like karasu, I'm definitely interested in hearing more.





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"Re(4):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Tue 14 Jul 09:58post reply

quote:

I definitely want to hear this kind of stuff. Clicking that link blew my mind.

Like karasu, I'm definitely interested in hearing more.

Thirded!

Here comes a new thread!





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"Re(5):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 20 Jul 20:18post reply

So.. no one cares about the new character? The design is pretty all-over-the-place-yet-boring-at-the-same-time AKA Killer Instict style.





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"Re(6):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 20 Jul 21:25post reply

quote:
So.. no one cares about the new character? The design is pretty all-over-the-place-yet-boring-at-the-same-time AKA Killer Instict style.

Designwise there's not really that much special to him. I didn't really think of him as like Kars, either. It seems Capcom just wanted to have some edgy character that western fans might like...? I agree that he is pretty boring in that aspect. Can't say much about the gameplay part, yet.





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"Re(7):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Tue 21 Jul 00:32post reply

quote:
So.. no one cares about the new character? The design is pretty all-over-the-place-yet-boring-at-the-same-time AKA Killer Instict style.
Designwise there's not really that much special to him. I didn't really think of him as like Kars, either. It seems Capcom just wanted to have some edgy character that western fans might like...? I agree that he is pretty boring in that aspect. Can't say much about the gameplay part, yet.



Truthfully, I'm not especially put off by his design. As to whether I like him as a playable character or not, I'll have to try him out to see.

I think Capcom is in a funny spot right now, where nearly everything they produce gets put under a microscope to find out just what it is that everyone hates the most (which has been my experience with reading people's reactions elsewhere online). This guy has a lot of shades of Blanka to me, or is at least a similarly out there 'bestial' character, and my guess is that in 1991 nobody was screaming about how awful and how much of a Wolverine ripoff Blanka was. It's funny, when this guy was teased at the end of Ken's intro video, within about half an hour a few people I know went through a series of speculations about who he was, and for each speculation, they had an accompanying reason why he would suck, but none about why he would be interesting or good.

Personally I'm always happy when Capcom takes a chance and introduces a new character, and as far as SFIV was concerned, I was mixed as to which ones I liked. I suspect we'll never return to the glory days of SFIII when a tiny subset of returners will be accompanied by an almost entirely new cast, but any direction away from 'Super SFII plus a few new folks' is just fine with me.





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"Re(8):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Tue 21 Jul 01:11post reply

quote:
but any direction away from 'Super SFII plus a few new folks' is just fine with me.
I'd say we were already stepping in that direction with Charlie and Birdie. Also, we're only getting sixteen characters at the start, so initially it's clearly not going to be that way anyway. The only hurdle left is "SF2CE cast plus some new guys".





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"Re(8):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Tue 21 Jul 04:13post reply

quote:
It seems Capcom just wanted to have some edgy character that western fans might like...?

Am I supposed to only play characters that are designed to appeal to no one? If that's the case I would be stuck playing Arcana Heart.

Personally I like Necalli. It's nice to see a fighting game character with Polynesian influences besides Warren from Power Moves, plus I'm curious to see how many colors they can come up with for his glowing hair. I'm glad that SF and KI are still in the business of making colorful games now that MK seems intent on making everything as drab as possible.





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"Re(9):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Tue 21 Jul 04:18post reply

quote:

Personally I like Necalli. It's nice to see a fighting game character with Polynesian influences besides Warren from Power Moves, plus I'm curious to see how many colors they can come up with for his glowing hair. I'm glad that SF and KI are still in the business of making colorful games now that MK seems intent on making everything as drab as possible.



He's clearly an Aztec.





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"Re(9):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Tue 21 Jul 04:22:post reply

quote:
It seems Capcom just wanted to have some edgy character that western fans might like...?
Am I supposed to only play characters that are designed to appeal to no one?

I'm really confused on how you read that out of what I said.
quote:
He's clearly an Aztec.
Is that so?

Also, hint for the next reveal, possibly.





[this message was edited by Doshin on Tue 21 Jul 05:06]

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"O'great job, Capcom" , posted Wed 22 Jul 03:01:post reply

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/jul/21/necallis-v-trigger-has-no-time-limit-once-activated-new-information-and-screenshots-street-fighter-5s-latest-character/

Now the backstory reminds me of Ogre... 0 points to "Capcom".





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"Re(1):O'great job, Capcom" , posted Wed 22 Jul 04:02post reply

quote:
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/jul/21/necallis-v-trigger-has-no-time-limit-once-activated-new-information-and-screenshots-street-fighter-5s-latest-character/

Now the backstory reminds me of Ogre... 0 points to "Capcom".



I like the character design. I really do. I can't wait to see his backstory, and hope he isn't just another "unknown" nationality.





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"A simple yet exciting move" , posted Wed 22 Jul 05:59post reply

Do the designers think V-Reversals are going to be a big part of the game? I can't see how Necalli losing that during his V-trigger is going to hurt him all that much.

quote:
I'm really confused on how you read that out of what I said.


Since fighting game characters since the beginning of time have almost always been designed with international audiences in mind it just struck me as a bit odd that part of your indifference to Necalli was based on the idea that he may have been created using very standard guidelines. Of course I could have mis-read your line, which would hardly be the first time.

quote:
He's clearly an Aztec.

Now he's no longer interesting.





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"Re(1):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Wed 22 Jul 07:40:post reply

quote:
...part of your indifference to Necalli was based on the idea that he may have been created using very standard guidelines. Of course I could have mis-read your line, which would hardly be the first time.
My cheesy analysis of the target demographic has nothing to do with my lack of interest. But in truth a lot of things have a target demographic whether anyone likes to believe it or not, and Capcom is no different.

Some people (most likely jokingly) theorized that Necalli + Seth form the complete image of Gill.

Other people are just thinking about the doujin potential from his hair.

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[this message was edited by Doshin on Wed 22 Jul 07:51]

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"Re(2):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sat 25 Jul 05:03post reply


EDIT: Laura







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"Re(3):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 27 Jul 06:33post reply

quote:
EDIT: Laura



During his idle animation in SF5 Birdie digs mucus out of his nose and flings it at his opponent. Ryu can parry it. This is why I play games.





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"Re(4):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Fri 7 Aug 05:03post reply

A quick bit of SF5 footage. Highlights include English voices, Vega's floaty pendant, the continuing evolution of Cammy's face, and Necalli's stutter.





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"Re(5):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Fri 7 Aug 12:42post reply

quote:
A quick bit of SF5 footage. Highlights include English voices, Vega's floaty pendant, the continuing evolution of Cammy's face, and Necalli's stutter.

I actually hope they keep Vega as a noncharge character. It fosters a playstyle more suited to his speed. On the other hand, I think Birdie should probably go back to such.





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"Re(6):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sun 9 Aug 09:02post reply

quote:
I actually hope they keep Vega as a noncharge character. It fosters a playstyle more suited to his speed. On the other hand, I think Birdie should probably go back to such.


Looking back on it I'm not certain why Vega has been a charge character all this time. The only reason he has remained one for so long is because those were the motions he was initially given and I suspect no one at Capcom back then gave the matter too much thought.

Does anyone remember how Heidern turned out when they arbitrarily turned him into a command character? Correct me if I'm wrong but he's one of the few characters to make the switch; most characters are married to a style of attack when they are initially created.





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"Re(7):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sun 9 Aug 11:59:post reply

quote:
I actually hope they keep Vega as a noncharge character. It fosters a playstyle more suited to his speed. On the other hand, I think Birdie should probably go back to such.

Looking back on it I'm not certain why Vega has been a charge character all this time. The only reason he has remained one for so long is because those were the motions he was initially given and I suspect no one at Capcom back then gave the matter too much thought.




I think special move inputs were originally assigned based on how they matched up to the motion of the action on screen. So QCF conveys the feeling of the iconic fireball motion. DP represents the feeling of moving forward, then crouching down for some leverage and releasing that energy in an upward motion. The charge moves represent storing energy and releasing it in the opposing direction. They all "feel" right.

I think for gameplay purposes, the general convention is also that if a special launches the entire character quickly in a straight line, it will be a charge move. Blanka's roll, E Honda's torpedo, the Psycho Crusher, Urien's chariot tackle, Vega's roll and dive attacks. They all "feel" right as charge moves.

Cammy's Spiral Arrow still has a little bit of an arc to it, so it feels better as a QCF. I think it's mostly about feeling and intuition (I can usually guess a Capcom character's move inputs from the way the animation looks. I can't do this for SNK games consistently)

Also, I think if some moves could come out even quicker without a charge, the characters would be overpowered. I remember playing CVS2 on a Gamecube, where you could assign special move shortcuts. A blanka who can walk forward into a roll is terrifying!






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"Re(8):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sun 9 Aug 15:48post reply

quote:
I actually hope they keep Vega as a noncharge character. It fosters a playstyle more suited to his speed. On the other hand, I think Birdie should probably go back to such.

Looking back on it I'm not certain why Vega has been a charge character all this time. The only reason he has remained one for so long is because those were the motions he was initially given and I suspect no one at Capcom back then gave the matter too much thought.



I think special move inputs were originally assigned based on how they matched up to the motion of the action on screen. So QCF conveys the feeling of the iconic fireball motion. DP represents the feeling of moving forward, then crouching down for some leverage and releasing that energy in an upward motion. The charge moves represent storing energy and releasing it in the opposing direction. They all "feel" right.

I think for gameplay purposes, the general convention is also that if a special launches the entire character quickly in a straight line, it will be a charge move. Blanka's roll, E Honda's torpedo, the Psycho Crusher, Urien's chariot tackle, Vega's roll and dive attacks. They all "feel" right as charge moves.

Cammy's Spiral Arrow still has a little bit of an arc to it, so it feels better as a QCF. I think it's mostly about feeling and intuition (I can usually guess a Capcom character's move inputs from the way the animation looks. I can't do this for SNK games consistently)

Also, I think if some moves co

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --






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"Re(8):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sun 9 Aug 15:48:post reply

quote:
I actually hope they keep Vega as a noncharge character. It fosters a playstyle more suited to his speed. On the other hand, I think Birdie should probably go back to such.

Looking back on it I'm not certain why Vega has been a charge character all this time. The only reason he has remained one for so long is because those were the motions he was initially given and I suspect no one at Capcom back then gave the matter too much thought.



I think special move inputs were originally assigned based on how they matched up to the motion of the action on screen. So QCF conveys the feeling of the iconic fireball motion. DP represents the feeling of moving forward, then crouching down for some leverage and releasing that energy in an upward motion. The charge moves represent storing energy and releasing it in the opposing direction. They all "feel" right.

I think for gameplay purposes, the general convention is also that if a special launches the entire character quickly in a straight line, it will be a charge move. Blanka's roll, E Honda's torpedo, the Psycho Crusher, Urien's chariot tackle, Vega's roll and dive attacks. They all "feel" right as charge moves.

Cammy's Spiral Arrow still has a little bit of an arc to it, so it feels better as a QCF. I think it's mostly about feeling and intuition (I can usually guess a Capcom character's move inputs from the way the animation looks. I can't do this for SNK games consistently)

Also, I think if some moves co

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


In the beginning the notion of "the motion should mimic what the person is doing" was a big deal, but as the games have progressed that has mostly stopped mattering and it's mostly become "which archetype do we want to stick on this character for a given playstyle". The entire reason why Dhalsim's teleports use all 3 punches/kicks in ST I believe is because there aren't different versions of the move for each of the different strengths of punch/kick. Now, it using the DP motion is partly because they didn't want to make it charge and he's already got a fireball, but the notion of the motion mimicking the animation/action is totally out the window. On the flip side, in USF4, Decapre could totally be a command character and not a charge character and it would feel just fine, but it'd probably be too powerful.

Charge motions are really convenient for making moves that are safe on block, or giving them advantageous startups/recoveries since the charge naturally limits how frequently you can throw it out. Guile's sonic boom in CvS2 starts up fast and recovers fast, so with Easy Operation in the console version, it's monstrous. The whole "move forwards horizontally" thing is quite relevant for this because making the move a charge move means that the character can't walk forward and then do this move. This is big! It's one thing that it leads to needing technique/supplemental moves that allow the character to move forward while building/holding charge (e.g. Guile's b+HK makes him step FORWARD and kick, rather than sliding backwards as the motion would suggest, like in the manner of his b+MK), but it also encourages interesting character design built around this. Dictator Bison gets a very fast walk speed and some strong horizontal and close normals, like his deadly standing LK, along with great throw range and throw damage... but walking forward negates his ability to charge! Not only that, he has no command normals which move him forwards! So when he advances on the ground, he loses the ability to immediately call upon his fast, safe on block scissor kicks. Certain normals of his also cannot be cancelled into scissor kick if he hasn't either gotten close enough to land a series of blocked attacks that would let him build charge (so walking up, doing a d+MK doesn't immediately yield a combo into scissor kicks, but getting very close yields the deadly and safe st.LK st.LK cr.MK xx scisssor).

So how does that play into Claw's SF2 game? Claw has the fastest walk speed in the game, long reaching normals, and much like Dictator, no normals that move him forwards. What that means is that if he wants to do a special move, he can't do it if he's walking forwards and angling for a throw. One of his important and threatening actions, walking forwards, completely shuts off his ability activate some of his others. That's huge.

The technique which charge necessitates together with the strategic considerations it creates can be really interesting, and that's something which non-charge characters never really have to deal with. Charge characters often get higher-quality moves of certain kinds (e.g. projectiles) because the limitations on performing them balances them.





[this message was edited by Spoon on Sun 9 Aug 17:53]

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"Re(9):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sun 9 Aug 21:50post reply

quote:
In the beginning the notion of "the motion should mimic what the person is doing" was a big deal


Believe it or not, this was how all those insane super move commands for SNK games came about, hahaha!


Like Laurence Blood's was supposed to mimic his slashes for example. Oh the good old days.





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"Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 03:33post reply

quote:
Does anyone remember how Heidern turned out when they arbitrarily turned him into a command character? Correct me if I'm wrong but he's one of the few characters to make the switch; most characters are married to a style of attack when they are initially created.


That was in KOF2001 I believe, and initially it was thought to have made him absurdly strong. I haven't really followed on the pro competition scene of KOF2001 (and let's be honest here, that episode rarely shows up on Acho and Mikado...) so I am not sure if this initial impression holds up or if Angel and May Lee made ranking any other character simply irrelevant.

Robert Garcia also famously became a charge character in KOF'99 and KOF2000. So it actually predated Heidern's switch.





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"Re(2):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 03:51post reply

quote:

Robert Garcia also famously became a charge character in KOF'99 and KOF2000. So it actually predated Heidern's switch.



You can pick EX Robert in 2K2UM who is a charge character and is often ranked much higher in tier lists than regular Robert.





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"Re(2):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 04:20post reply

quote:
so I am not sure if this initial impression holds up or if Angel and May Lee made ranking any other character simply irrelevant.

Foxy made any other character irrelevant. But Heidern had ways to totally shut down many characters and was probably the top 3. I don't remember if he was better or worse than May Lee... Was Angel ever that strong? I think she was quite bad in 2001 (like Whip in 1999), and she only was ever finished (and became powerful) in 2002... But maybe I'm wrong.
I remember Choi and K' being absurd too, but far below Heidern, Foxy and May Lee.





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"Re(3):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 16:36post reply

I assume Ex Robert had many additional property changes in KOF2002UM (new hitboxes, priorities and moves), and not simply the different commands, right?

Here we go:

quote:
Ciudad Juarez, Mexico July 2011 Tier List for KOF 2001:

Banned:
Igniz and Original Zero

S+:
May Lee, Angel, Foxy (w/unblockable), Hinako (w/infinite), Kula (w/infinite)

S-
King, Heidern, Takuma, Robert

A:
Vanessa, Iori, Clark, Leona, Choi, Yuri

Mid Tier:
Everyone else






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"Re(4):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 17:47post reply

quote:
I assume Ex Robert had many additional property changes in KOF2002UM (new hitboxes, priorities and moves), and not simply the different commands, right?



Well, I can't confirm how big the differences are between the hitboxes or priorities, but he has a different moveset, yes. What also makes him strong is the way you can charge his "flash kick" (DOWN, up + kick) while running forward. This is something that I don't think exists outside of KOF. Another thing that doesn't really exist outside of KOF is dogding/rolling which you can do while charging moves. So I guess we can't really compare charge characters between games that have different gameplay mechanics. We'll just have to see what they decide to do with Balrog in SFV and just live with it. (I'll live without even playing the game)





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"Re(9):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 18:59post reply

quote:
Dictator Bison gets a very fast walk speed and some strong horizontal and close normals, like his deadly standing LK, along with great throw range and throw damage... but walking forward negates his ability to charge! Not only that, he has no command normals which move him forwards! So when he advances on the ground, he loses the ability to immediately call upon his fast, safe on block scissor kicks. Certain normals of his also cannot be cancelled into scissor kick if he hasn't either gotten close enough to land a series of blocked attacks that would let him build charge (so walking up, doing a d+MK doesn't immediately yield a combo into scissor kicks, but getting very close yields the deadly and safe st.LK st.LK cr.MK xx scisssor).


Well, Dictator does have his slide, which moves him forward and can be used while charging vertically or horizontally (even if it's not a terribly safe move, it can catch less experienced players unaware), and must be blocked low - I don't recall if his scissors kick must be blocked high (or of that depends on the game), but if so, that's a little mind game he can apply. Claw has a slide too, so that might apply to him as well - I'm far from a master of either character.

Doing away with motions like Sommersault Justice is in the very least a stop forward, and that alone makes Claw more of an option for me if that's changing as well, even if I'm not expecting to pay much attention t SF5 for the time being.





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"Re(9):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 22:59post reply

quote:
In the beginning the notion of "the motion should mimic what the person is doing" was a big deal,


Looking closer, it seemed a bit more "follow the standards" than "follow the action" anyway.

Ryu's Hadoken is as much a back-to-forward move as it is "down-to-forward". If you ever had anyone demonstrate it (or perhaps demonstrated it yourself) while talking about inputs mimicking motion, then I'm willing to bet that person exaggerated the downward part of the beginning.

As for the Shoryuken, you have a move where the purpose is to go up into the air that never has an upward input, and which ends on a downward input. There is no "forward" to the start of a shoryuken, as the move starts with "downward". (If you want to say that "forward" comes from the standing start, the hadoken also starts standing but doesn't start with "forward".)

The hurricane kick is a spinning kick that moves forward, but has a QCB input. One would think it would be back-to-forward as well, or end in forward.

A lot of this seems as much mechanical concerns as any attempt for inputs to mimic the starting actions. The dragon punch didn't have an "up" component in order to prevent accidental jumping when the player failed the input. The hurricane kick was QCB in order to prevent overlapping with the fireball, even if the two used different button.

So the most iconic motions were at best shaky on the "mimic the action" concept. Later Capcom characters would alter the concept further, with inputs that reflected motion beyond the start-up (as the explanation for Ryu's moves require that you cut off the input after the start-up in order to justify the dragon punch not ending in an upward direction and the hurricane kick not ending in forward.)

Charge moves tended to carry basic direction-of-movement information, but even that was hit-and-miss. Chun-Li's forward moving spinning kick was charge-down-to-up (with people saying it reflected the flip she did at the start), while the forward moves of other charge characters were back-to-forward. (Of course once people realized how overpowered crouch-block was, every charge character effectively ended up starting their moves by rising from a crouching pose.)

Of course we do have some wacky SNK inputs...





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"Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 23:54post reply

I've never thought this much about how Vega moved until I was presented with the possibility that his commands could change. What have I been missing all this time?

While the idea of making the motion match the move is certainly understandable for why Vega turned out the way he did wouldn't get across the sense of his rolling attack just as well as ? It would also have the benefit of conveying the rapid movement and agility that he initially had back in SF2:WW. But if I had to guess the reason that he ended up as a charge character is because his wall jump move was probably considered way too powerful if he was able to initiate it without any sort of penalty. Since the SF programmers had to balance out a move that was not initially intended to be used by players everything about Vega was built around keeping his wall jump from being utterly ridiculous. Back then it may have made sense to occasionally stop Vega's offense by having him go into a charging squat but we're living in a post-Yun world so people are used to hyper aggressive characters. Now I'm hoping he stays as a motion character just because I want to see what a constantly moving Vega looks like.





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"Re(2):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Tue 11 Aug 00:48post reply

quote:
I've never thought this much about how Vega moved until I was presented with the possibility that his commands could change. What have I been missing all this time?

While the idea of making the motion match the move is certainly understandable for why Vega turned out the way he did wouldn't get across the sense of his rolling attack just as well as ? It would also have the benefit of conveying the rapid movement and agility that he initially had back in SF2:WW. But if I had to guess the reason that he ended up as a charge character is because his wall jump move was probably considered way too powerful if he was able to initiate it without any sort of penalty. Since the SF programmers had to balance out a move that was not initially intended to be used by players everything about Vega was built around keeping his wall jump from being utterly ridiculous. Back then it may have made sense to occasionally stop Vega's offense by having him go into a charging squat but we're living in a post-Yun world so people are used to hyper aggressive characters. Now I'm hoping he stays as a motion character just because I want to see what a constantly moving Vega looks like.


The four original SFII boss characters are a really interesting case in regards to how their moves were given commands, since my guess is that when SFIIWW first came out there was never the intention that they would ever be usable. It's an interesting problem that you can also see echoes of in the console versions of Fatal Fury, which made the rest of the cast playable (but which, if I remember right, were completely different sets of commands because the ports were handled by two different companies), and of the move from Fatal Fury 2 to Special, which made the bosses from 2 (and Geese) playable for the first time. It's also pretty interesting that Capcom decided to mix things up the way they did for a character who's been around for decades-- as other folks have pointed out, SNK never had such qualms, which resulted in oddities like non-charge Heidern and charge Robert.





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"Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Tue 11 Aug 06:17post reply

quote:

Well, Dictator does have his slide, which moves him forward and can be used while charging vertically or horizontally (even if it's not a terribly safe move, it can catch less experienced players unaware), and must be blocked low - I don't recall if his scissors kick must be blocked high (or of that depends on the game), but if so, that's a little mind game he can apply. Claw has a slide too, so that might apply to him as well - I'm far from a master of either character.

Doing away with motions like Sommersault Justice is in the very least a stop forward, and that alone makes Claw more of an option for me if that's changing as well, even if I'm not expecting to pay much attention t SF5 for the time being.



I guess I excluded those because they have traditionally been very unsafe on block outside of highly specific situations. Like in CvS2, Bison slide could be safe on block if it was done extremely meaty, but it's definitely not a "regular poke that moves you forward + lets you build charge" like Guile's step kick. Scissor kick has never been an overhead, thank goodness.

The super motions being bigger and grander motions (e.g. ZANGIEF'S SUPER IS TWO SPDs SO YOU SHOULD DO TWO 360s) as the supers are for most characters bigger and grander versions of existing moves, while also making them more difficult to use in combos, as well as introducing new challenges to their execution (e.g. how to buffer a 720). But it clearly isn't the case that Ryu or anybody else with a QCFx2 does a double pump with their hands in their super.

The QCF+PPP makes a lot of sense!

A long time ago, especially when I was really new to fighting games, successfully executing a super felt like an achievement. It literally was learning a technique, and while it can be derided as "going through the motions" (quite literally!), there's something to the learning of being able to do something fluently that is special. It's like doing dance steps or becoming fluent in a piece of music: yeah, they're rigidly defined and you are literally going through the motions, but the entire notion of "adding to a repertoire" is a real and gratifying thing. Especially in the day when your arcade budget was limited, choosing to put your money into a game where you can't do all the moves because you don't have the mechanical proficiency yet was a big decision! I don't know if I'm relieved at not having to have to deal with that anymore or if I'm sad that a generation will grow up without getting to feel that special feeling of "Wow! I can do this now!".





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"Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Tue 11 Aug 18:29:post reply

quote:
Looking closer, it seemed a bit more "follow the standards" than "follow the action" anyway.

Ryu's Hadoken is as much a back-to-forward move as it is "down-to-forward". If you ever had anyone demonstrate it (or perhaps demonstrated it yourself) while talking about inputs mimicking motion, then I'm willing to bet that person exaggerated the downward part of the beginning.

As for the Shoryuken, you have a move where the purpose is to go up into the air that never has an upward input, and which ends on a downward input. There is no "forward" to the start of a shoryuken, as the move starts with "downward". (If you want to say that "forward" comes from the standing start, the hadoken also starts standing but doesn't start with "forward".)

The hurricane kick is a spinning kick that moves forward, but has a QCB input. One would think it would be back-to-forward as well, or end in forward.

A lot of this seems as much mechanical concerns as any attempt for inputs to mimic the starting actions. The dragon punch didn't have an "up" component in order to prevent accidental jumping when the player failed the input. The hurricane kick was QCB in order to prevent overlapping with the fireball, even if the two used different button.

So the most iconic motions were at best shaky on the "mimic the action" concept. Later Capcom characters would alter the concept further, with inputs that reflected motion beyond the start-up (as the explanation for Ryu's moves require that you cut off the input after the start-up in order to justify the dragon punch not ending in an upward direction and the hurricane kick not ending in forward.)



The way I see it, the motions make sense in terms of how the body would shift to perform them and/or how they're aimed.

For the Hadoken, to me the core of it is that Ryu starts by grounding himself to build up power before thrusting forward. Look at his back leg - its all about going from a slightly bent position to stretching it, pushing the ground under him to thrust his center of mass forward - Hadokens and their game/anime ilk are basically ways to visualize this kind of application of force.

For an interesting example of the importance of footwork in martial arts, look into Kung Fu Hustle - while the movie usually doesn't take itself too seriously, you can still tell the people who coreographed it knew a thing or two about martial arts basics (the scenes involving applying twists to joints are particularly amazing, and something I've rarely seen given that much emphasized focus despite their importance in martial arts). Later in the film when the protagonist "awakens", his very first actions against the antagonist gang don't involve his hands at all - it's all footwork and how he shifts his weight to move between his opponents, dodging, pushing and throwing them off-balance (edit: actually he does punch a bit, but the lack of arm work early on is still remarkable for an action movie).


For the Shoryuken, if you think of it as an emphasized uppercut, disregarding the fact it takes to the skies (it's often at its best when it lands the early hit still in the ground), it also makes some more sense - to be effective you have to be at closer range () than a more traditional straight punch (the arm's more bent), and it's a hit from below that's generally meant to hit either under the ribs or the chin, meaning that the arm's movement starts and ideally ends slightly below a more conventional punching height.


As for the Tatsumaki, while it does make the character move forward, it does involve him turning away from the opponent (multiple times depending on the kick strength) in order to spin the way he does.
IIRC Street Fighter EX at least the early games, took this notion to heart by making you perform a QCB+K for every kick actually performed in the move, since each kick made you spin one more time.
Something like Marco's Hienshippukyaku in Garou can be a QCF since it's a strictly forward-moving attack while the character's always facing his opponent, but SF took a different route early on and stuck to it. That it worked out and kept the motion clearly distinct from the other Ansatsuken specials was a fortunate case.

quote:
It's an interesting problem that you can also see echoes of in the console versions of Fatal Fury, which made the rest of the cast playable (but which, if I remember right, were completely different sets of commands because the ports were handled by two different companies), and of the move from Fatal Fury 2 to Special, which made the bosses from 2 (and Geese) playable for the first time.


Technically Geese was first playable in the Megadrive port of FF1 - he didn't have nearly as many moves, but IIRC his counter used that game's throw button, which is a terribly adequate thing that only the DoA series is even close to replicate AFAIK.





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"Re(2):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Tue 11 Aug 18:46post reply

quote:
The way I see it, the motions make sense in terms of how the body would shift to perform them and/or how they're aimed.

For the Hadoken, to me the core of it is that Ryu starts by grounding himself to build up power before thrusting forward. Look at his back leg - its all about going from a slightly bent position to stretching it, pushing the ground under him to thrust his center of mass forward - Hadokens and their game/anime ilk are basically ways to visualize this kind of application of force.

For an interesting example of the importance of footwork in martial arts, look into Kung Fu Hustle - while the movie usually doesn't take itself too seriously, you can still tell the people who coreographed it knew a thing or two about martial arts basics (the scenes involving applying twists to joins are particularly amazing, and something I've rarely seen given that much emphasized focus despite their importance in martial arts). Later in the film when the protagonist "awakens", his very first actions agains the antagonist gang don't involve his hands at all - i't all footwork and how he shifts his weight to move between his opponents, dodging, pushing and throwing them off-balance.


For the Shoryuken, if you think of it as an emphasized uppercut, disregarding the fact it takes to the skies (it's often at its best when it lands the early hit still in the ground), it also makes some more sense - to be effective you have to be at closer range () than a more traditional straight punch (the arm's more bent), and it's a hit from below that's generally meant to hit either under the ribs or the chin, meaning that the arm's movement starts and ideally ends slightly below a more conventional punching height.


As for the Tatsumaki, while it does make the character move forward, it does involve him turning away from the opponent (multiple times depending on the kick strength) in order to spin the way he does.
IIRC Street Fighter EX at least the early games, took this notion to heart by making you perform a QCB+K for every kick actually performed in the move, since each kick made you spin one more time.
Something like Marco's Hienshippukyaku in Garou can be a QCF since it's a strictly forward moving attack while the character's always facing his opponent, but SF took a different route early on and stuck to it. That it worked out and kept the motion clearly distinct from the other Ansatsuken specials was a fortunate case.


This guy know's what's up.

Thanks for conveying this way better than I could have. Do you have experience with martial arts in real life?






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"Re(3):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Tue 11 Aug 22:49post reply

quote:

Thanks for conveying this way better than I could have. Do you have experience with martial arts in real life?


Nothing competitive, but about 6 years of Aikido in total, with an interval which for a year I filled with Karate during high-school and another year with Kung Fu classes in college. In more recent years I've had the option to occasionally practice some boxing in the gyms available at my latest jobs.
I can't say I've gone particularly far with any of those style, but I figured they've all helped to sink in the importance of joints, shifting your weight properly and posture.

BTW, I updated my previous post with the relevant Kung Fu Hustle video links, because everyone should in the very least see those scenes.





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