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Just a Person 1646th Post

  
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| "Re(8):SFV" , posted Sat 9 May 01:42    
Yes, I'd say overall SF has quite a diverse cast. Most fighting games seem to concentrate mainly in fighters from USA, Japan and China, anyway (N64's Fighters Destiny series may be an exception - then again, it's not like it has many characters).
But it would be really nice if SFV could add more fighters from Africa. Come on, it's a huge continent full of countries with the most diverse cultures; I think if Capcom does a proper research, they will find many more fighting styles there than just Capoeira.
They may not have time to do that, unfortunately. If I remember correctly, SFV is supposed to be released next year, right? At this point they may already have most of the cast being developed (even though only Ryu, Chun-Li and Nash are confirmed so far).
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Just a Person 1647th Post

  
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| "Re(10):SFV" , posted Sun 10 May 09:21    
quote: Here is a cool little map of all the characters and parts of the world they are from. http://media.eventhubs.com/images/2009/10/08_streetfightermap.jpg No Hakan? No Poison? Isnt Juli Native American? Other than that thats a cool idea.
Yeah, Hakan and Poison are missing. So is Decapre, by the way.
As for Juli, it's... complicated. If I remember correctly, originally T.Hawk would be related to a different Shadaloo Doll, named Noembelu (she appears in the intro for Juli & Juni's tag team in SFA3) - but since Capcom didn't care to make a "fightable" Noembelu, her role was given to Juli. Even then, though, it seems that T.Hawk is related to both girls: Noembelu is a girl from his tribe, while Juli is supposed to be a German girl who he met and fell in love with.
I guess this last part came from the UDON comics. People often debate whether they can be considered canon - but considering how Capcom itself never seemed to care much about SF's plot before SFIV, these comics may be better than nothing.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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Mosquiton 2042th Post

  
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| "A little Birdie told me...." , posted Sat 13 Jun 12:06:    
That a German site may have leaked a couple of new additions to the roster.
Shamelessly nabbed translation c/o Red Arremer from NeoGaf:
quote:
Among the already known participants Ryu, Chun-Li, Nash/Charlie and M. Bison, the veterans Cammy White and Birdie will take part as well. Cammy still plays as swiftly as she always did, focusing on speed and melee attacks. Birdie, on the other hand, is an enormous hulk who hits really hard and can take quite the beating. Although the giant is very immobile, he has an iron chain that gives him range that is not to be underestimated. That's why the big guy is way too strong in the current preview version. Capcom still needs to fine-tune the balance in that regard!
All things considered, it looks like it might be legit. For the purposes of fun speculation, I'll just assume it's true so I can yap about these two characters a bit.
I've always liked Cammy and played her a lot in the Zero/Alpha series. What's not to like? I'm guessing her V-skill will be directional hooligan roll... not sure about a V-trigger, maybe some kind of speed boost.
But Birdie! Kind of unexpected, but not bad! He could do with a bit of a style update... I wouldn't mind if he were slightly less dumb than a rock this time. But anyway, T. Hawk was basically my main in SF4 and this guy would fit the same kind of "people think this is a lame character design, but that's secretly his charm and he will crush you into a fine powder anyway" kind of template. Plus he bit off Vice's "Withering Surface" super, which I really enjoy for the gotcha-factor when a panicked opponent jumps backwards.
So I would guess his V-Trigger could have something to do with super armor? No idea what his V-Skill might be.
Edit: Maybe they could use it to "charge" his turn-punch-style headbutt without holding buttons... press once to start the charge, press again to set it off? Seems like it would be a handy way to eliminate (what I always thought was a) weird and awkward mechanic.
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[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Sat 13 Jun 12:11] |
Mosquiton 2043th Post

  
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| "Re(2):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Mon 15 Jun 12:39    
quote: Since it seems the folks making SF5 are more than willing to change even long established characters for this game I would expect that Birdie is going to get a full overhaul. That's probably for the best since, for me, he was a character who could do a great deal but didn't fully gel into a workable play style. Hopefully this new Birdie will keep the variety but lose the aspects of his game that worked against one another.
As for Cammy, I'm assuming she's going to be the rush down, in your face character for the game but what, if anything, are they going to do to make her different from SF4 Cammy? Has she been secretly replaced by Decapre and now spends the entire match charge dashing around the screen?
Never let lack of confirmation keep you from the fun of speculation!
You know, since Ryu is still Ryu and Chun is still Chun, I wouldn't be very surprised if Cammy wasn't dramatically changed. Sure, she doesn't go as far back as the main cast, but considering her general popularity number of games she's been in, she's pretty close to "classic" status. I actually love hooligan roll, even though it's not an especially *good* move... so I'd greatly enjoy if it became a more interesting and viable part of her playstyle.
I admit that Birdie could definitely use some work, and he's been gone so long that very few people would think to complain if they changed up his game. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if he were still a grappler that throws people around with a chain and still does Boxer-style dash attacks to close distance.
Would love to see some fun new stuff for both characters, as well.
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Spoon 2916th Post

  
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| "Re(3):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Mon 15 Jun 12:59    
quote: Since it seems the folks making SF5 are more than willing to change even long established characters for this game I would expect that Birdie is going to get a full overhaul. That's probably for the best since, for me, he was a character who could do a great deal but didn't fully gel into a workable play style. Hopefully this new Birdie will keep the variety but lose the aspects of his game that worked against one another.
As for Cammy, I'm assuming she's going to be the rush down, in your face character for the game but what, if anything, are they going to do to make her different from SF4 Cammy? Has she been secretly replaced by Decapre and now spends the entire match charge dashing around the screen?
Never let lack of confirmation keep you from the fun of speculation!
You know, since Ryu is still Ryu and Chun is still Chun, I wouldn't be very surprised if Cammy wasn't dramatically changed. Sure, she doesn't go as far back as the main cast, but considering her general popularity number of games she's been in, she's pretty close to "classic" status. I actually love hooligan roll, even though it's not an especially *good* move... so I'd greatly enjoy if it became a more interesting and viable part of her playstyle.
I admit that Birdie could definitely use some work, and he's been gone so long that very few people would think to complain if they changed up his game. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if he were still a grappler that throws people aro
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I think it's funny that of Cammy's iconic moves, they've never managed to make her spinning backfist and hooligan major tools in competitive play after literally decades of trying. The basic concepts of Cammy, a character with a variety of mobility special moves which are mostly strikes with a grapple mixed in to form a dynamic grappling threat, harkens to an attempt at what we probably now think of as "SNK-style grappler". I have to wonder how SF character design gameplay-wise might've changed had the grappling aspect of Cammy been more successful in her early versions.
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Iggy 9924th Post

  
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| "Re(8):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Tue 16 Jun 00:00    
quote: If Ryu is balanced for (the slightly more difficult and situation-dependent) Capcom inputs, then anyone playing Ryu without using them is at a disadvantage both against the rest of the roster and against other Ryu players. It isn't the game balance issue of the prior approach, but it does mean that you've designed a character that is underpowered if not played in a particular non-standard way.
One of the probable issues in Smash, especially Smash 4, is to give each character personality or a system that sets it apart without any doubt. Ness and Lucas may be very different if you know them, but from an uneducated point of view they still appear as "clones", and I guess that's something Sakurai's team tried hard to avoid with Smash 4: Mac's jauge, Shulk's Monado, WFT's breathing move... so giving Ryu his own system "you need to input commands" makes sense (especially since if he only had had his 3 main moves mapped on the 3 direction, he would have been very similar to many existing characters). As far as I could tell with my pre-school level in Smasheries, Ryu's main weakness (off-platform play chasing others off-screen, recovery) has nothing to do with his moves and commands. So in a way, the fact that moves can be performed the easy way and the hard, efficient way may also allow people to get used to his physics and mobility gradually, and only once they've mastered it try to do good with his input. It's an interesting twist to have Ryu in this game being the C-Viper/technical character, since he is more of an entry-level character in his own series.
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Loona 881th Post

  
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| "Re(8):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Tue 16 Jun 17:57    
quote: I'm all for this sort of thing to even the playing field while rewarding going the extra mile with execution.
That's contradictory though. Rewarding going the extra mile with execution is unevening the playing field.
If Ryu is balanced for Smash inputs, but using Capcom inputs gives you a damage boost and other benefits, then using Capcom inputs gives you an advantage over the rest of the roster. From a balance perspective, that approach would pretty much trying to make Ryu overpowered.
If Ryu is balanced for (the slightly more difficult and situation-dependent) Capcom inputs, then anyone playing Ryu without using them is at a disadvantage both against the rest of the roster and against other Ryu players. It isn't the game balance issue of the prior approach, but it does mean that you've designed a character that is underpowered if not played in a particular non-standard way.
Wouldn't that also depend on the strength of the default version of his moves? I'don't really know how they stack up compared to the rest of the cast damage-wise. In terms of body shape, range and weaponlessness, I guess he's closest to Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer and Captain Falcon - I'm curious to see how he holds up against those, since their moves are specifically designed for Smash (a little less in Mac's case, due to his more grounded approach). Then there's the fact that Ryu's moves were designed to handle a single opponent at a time - in a more party-like setting with several characters on screen maybe he's just not as effective (his Hadokens probably don't do that well compared to the beam attacks some of the rest of the cast have as smash ball attacks, for example, and the Tatsumakisenpukyaku might compare poorly to stuff like faster and more direct dashing punches) - this may become moot in more competitive settings, of course.
I also wonder about the viability of using both the Hadoken and Tatsumaki commands in a platforming environment where you can turn either way - the Hadoken is clear enough, but how do you make one not come out in the opposite direction if you try to use a Tatsumaki? That's an issue players won't get with the default Smash commands, so that might be a consideration.
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nobinobita 1423th Post

  
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| "Re(4):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 18:19:    
quote: Birdie... really let himself go, there. Per his Zero series chain slam line: go...to heaven! Poor Birdie. But wait...Birdie is white!? Maybe there is a lighting problem. As for the art direction, I don't know. If we were in the late 1990's I'd be more shocked, but aside from Franken-Nash, people look better in-game than in IV (or maybe I was tired of weird flat-chested Chun-Li). I also like the official character art I've seen so far better than IV's dull, dreary stuff, sumi-e be damned. I agree with Maou after bland and ugly Sf4 art direction I really liked clean claymotion/action figured like models. Except for Ryu's lifeless non-surprised surprised reaction to Nash's super... but I hate Ryu with passion, so...
Eventhough I dont know if I hate or love foggy/light/pale background colors, but I love how they let character models' colours shine.
Let's compare the sepia toned background of SFV to the sepia colored War Agony stage from Darkstalkers.
Street Fighter V War Agony
The Street Fighter V England stage has a very flat look to it because it achieves the sepia look through a filter instead of naturalistic lighting. It's like a video that's undergone heavy post processing, or a photoshop/Instagram filter. It's applying the same effects evenly throughout the whole image, which robs it of its dimension and contrast. That's why for instance, there's no black in that image. The shadows fall short of it cos they're programmed to stop at that weird grey hue.
Oh Geez I just saw another image of that stage that's even worse. There's so little range of color here. It's just so bland and the execution is so heartless and cold. On top of that, the way the reds pop out is very garish and feels arbitrary. For instance the red phone booth sticks out like a sore thumb. Does it really need to be a visual focal point? Is that really the most important thing for your eye to be drawn to in that stage?
Now look at War Agony. Although it's actually a 2 dimensional pixel painting, look at how much more dimension it has to it. Although the overall color scheme averages out to be brown, there's so much depth and variety within it. Look at those purples in the sky. Look at the rightmost fence. How it recedes into a flat green, how it turns purplish as it advances forward, then back to green, then finally it becomes brighter tan color with insanely hot red highlights that DONT draw attention to themselves. And you know what's crazy? I just took the image into photoshop and eyedropped those colors, and they are actually all variations of orange. They just feel different because of slight variations in how warm/cold light/dark they are.
This is what Capcom used to excel at. Every little detail in their games was so measured and well considered individually and in the context of the game as a whole. The more I study them, the deeper I dig, the more I appreciate their 2d games.
Street Fighter V is like most things. The more you look at it, the more it falls apart.
I'm just sad to see something that used to be such a high water mark for quality descend into mediocrity, especially because I know they still have amazing people like Daigo Ikeno on staff, but they willingly choose to move the game in a direction more in line with contemporary Hollywood/AAA game-by-committee aesthetics.
Again, sorry for the negativity. This post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I don't want anyone to feel bad if they like how this game looks, I just wanted to articulate why I personally see Street Fighter V (and IV) as an artistic downgrade given its legacy.
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[this message was edited by nobinobita on Tue 16 Jun 18:24] |
neo0r0chiaku 44th Post

  
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| "Re(5):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 23:16    
quote: Birdie... really let himself go, there. Per his Zero series chain slam line: go...to heaven! Poor Birdie. But wait...Birdie is white!? Maybe there is a lighting problem. As for the art direction, I don't know. If we were in the late 1990's I'd be more shocked, but aside from Franken-Nash, people look better in-game than in IV (or maybe I was tired of weird flat-chested Chun-Li). I also like the official character art I've seen so far better than IV's dull, dreary stuff, sumi-e be damned. I agree with Maou after bland and ugly Sf4 art direction I really liked clean claymotion/action figured like models. Except for Ryu's lifeless non-surprised surprised reaction to Nash's super... but I hate Ryu with passion, so...
Eventhough I dont know if I hate or love foggy/light/pale background colors, but I love how they let character models' colours shine.
Let's compare the sepia toned background of SFV to the sepia colored War Agony stage from Darkstalkers.
Street Fighter V War Agony
The Street Fighter V England stage has a very flat look to it because it achieves the sepia look through a filter instead of naturalistic lighting. It's like a video that's undergone[URL=http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/blueorang
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
I agree, even though I have not played much of the new games Capcom has provided, SF4 and now SFV still does not strike to me in terms of graphics quality. I think the reason its setup this way it to make sure no slowdown occurs to keep it fast. Even with that, it still can look a lot better. But then again, I am and always a 2-D guy and against 3-D.
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Maou 2810th Post

  
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| "Nobithon" , posted Tue 16 Jun 23:42:    
quote: compare the sepia toned background of SFV to the sepia colored War Agony stage from Darkstalkers.
Oh Nobi, you picked the cruelest contrast possible! This is like cheap doujin vs. Hokusai or something. If they got SF Zero 2 and 3 running with netcode, I'd happily play them online with you till the end of days. And Vampire too, so Iggy won't yell at me, though I'm still too stupid to play it.
I love your analysis and agree with the dreary backgrounds...but I'm most interested in how you stack them up against IV, a game I played quite a bit of while hating the entire art direction, particularly the crappy music, boring stages, and stupid-looking characters (in and out of the game). Somehow, V's in-game and official characters look better than that insipid stuff from IV...again, except for Franken-Nash. God. Is it the sloppy stage lighting that's made it look like Birdie's pulled a Michael Jackson?
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...
[this message was edited by Maou on Wed 17 Jun 00:19] |
Spoon 2920th Post

  
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| "Re(1):Nobithon" , posted Wed 17 Jun 00:23    
I get that they don't yet want photorealistic human depictions of the SF characters, but the "solidly plastic" shading of the characters is an interesting decision to me. Not "interesting" as in "good" or "interesting" as in "oh, that's so clever", but "interesting" as in "why did they decide that?"
I'm still glad to see that Cammy has substantial muscles. The way in which her biceps, shoulders, etc. become more prominent when they're flexed is cool, and it stands out versus the always-hugely-muscled male characters. I don't know if she'll ever be as cut as she was in her SF2 incarnation (current UFC women's champion Ronda Rousey is nowhere near as trim as Cammy, and Ronda Rousey is literally one of the strongest women in the world), but it's good to see that her visible strength was acknowledged, by whatever committee is behind SFV, as a valuable part of her appeal.
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Spoon 2924th Post

  
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| "Re(2):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Thu 18 Jun 08:14    
quote: That's what we like to call big damage!
I think we're already there, and I'm actually a fan. The matches I'm seeing remind me a lot of Super Turbo, which in a lot of ways is my favorite SF.
I'd personally much rather see shorter combos and rocking an opponent with stun after a few flashes of sustained beautiful/savage/smart play rather than trying to squeeze every last pixel of life out of your opponent than making sure to squeeze in every jab/short possible on the front end of a combo and spend EX meter for just one more juggle hit.
I guess what I'm driving at is that nobody knows how to play the game well yet, so combos are only going to get MORE developed than what is already there. I'm all for short combos, too, but there's nothing suggesting that that's going to happen or not happen, while at the same time damage on even simple combos is pretty solid. Having the capacity for awesome link combos I think is generally better than not having it.
I mean, I love HnK, and coming from ArcSys land where practical 40% meterless damage is commonplace is something that isn't alien to me, but I'd rather that not be the norm in SFV. 3S had some crazy meterless stuff, but it was usually extremely situational.
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Ishmael 5198th Post

  
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| "Re(3):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 00:43    
quote: I guess what I'm driving at is that nobody knows how to play the game well yet, so combos are only going to get MORE developed than what is already there. I'm all for short combos, too, but there's nothing suggesting that that's going to happen or not happen, while at the same time damage on even simple combos is pretty solid. Having the capacity for awesome link combos I think is generally better than not having it.
I mean, I love HnK, and coming from ArcSys land where practical 40% meterless damage is commonplace is something that isn't alien to me, but I'd rather that not be the norm in SFV. 3S had some crazy meterless stuff, but it was usually extremely situational.
I'm not good at reverse engineering fighting games but if I had to guess I would say that the strong characters in SF5 aren't going to be based around long combos but who has the best pokes and hit confirms into super. While it might be entirely possible that there are complex combos waiting to be discovered the articles I've read about SF5 seem to suggest that the game is being designed to avoid long, execution heavy combos. I don't know how the game engine will react to an absurd combo but I suspect it's going to be like your 3S example where it's more of a situational fluke than a regular part of a match.
I'm certain that SF5 is going to change wildly before release (heck, Chun-Li has already lost two moves!) but this E3 presentation did a good job of showing what sort of game they want SF5 to be. As it stands right now it looks really aggressive and designed with an old-school, high-damage approach. Whether or not that's going to pan out remains to be seen but it's certainly a world away from SF4.
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Spoon 2927th Post

  
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| "Re(6):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 07:22    
quote: I really hope the game stays in the SSF2 territory of short damaging combos. Yesss if we could have SSF2X high damage combined with Zero air-blocking, I'd be so happy. Someone tell me why I should dislike air-blocking. Aside from the bad art and music, that might be the other 25% of why I didn't enjoy SSF4.
Because without universal air throws and other supporting systems, air blocking in an SF game is too safe and has inadequate punishment.
SF4 and SF5 have deliberately chosen not to include any kind of guard gauge or guard crush system, so airblocking would not incur any of those costs, which means that the entire air-to-air game becomes really odd. Juggling is still fairly restrictive, which means not a huge amount of reward for successfully defeating the air block, which is an act that already requires more care than utilizing it. Chicken blocking would straight up beat a variety of other offensive strategies (e.g. hurricane kick / throw option selects).
Rose was deliberately designed with an anti-air that works the way it does because of air blocking. You can airblock Ryu/Ken DPs once their feet leave the ground, but you can never airblock Soul Throw, so Soul Throw beats empty jump in always. However, Soul Throw should lose to certain attacks, so that makes it more interesting than just "a DP that can't hit people who are on the ground". In SF4, however, Soul Throw feels like a weird thing to have at all.
I like air blocking, but just dropping it into SF4/5 as they are probably wouldn't be good for the game.
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Spoon 2928th Post

  
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| "Re(8):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 09:13    
quote: Point taken. But wait: aren't you thinking in overly modern SF Zero 3 terms instead of SF Zero 2? SFZ2 had air-blocking but no universal air throws that I can recall, and the guard guage was also a non-issue for...most fighting games (? Certainly Street Fighter) until it appeared in SFZ3.
It's probably worth considering what kind of game it is that has the airblocking in it. X-Men COTA and beyond to the Vs. series, everybody is flying everywhere all the time, so since mobility was so great it wasn't a problem. KOF 98's airblock was so restrictive that it's largely a non-factor. Nobody took SFA1 seriously competitively, so who knows. SFA2 was thoroughly dominated by the Custom Combo system for the people that did play it seriously, and Custom Combos could punish anything, including air blocking. But it is true that SFA2 wasn't a whole lot worse for having air blocking, though perhaps mainly because CC overshadowed all other systems of the game. You can airblock in Cyberbots, but there are projectiles everywhere, so getting around without it would be obnoxious.
In the slower context of SF4, I'm just not convinced that it would make the game a whole lot better, given the already plodding nature of the game. There isn't a whole lot of stuff on the screen to deal with at any time (unlike Vs. series etc.), mobility is relatively low at a baseline (this isn't a game of airdashes/doublejumps/hyper hops/etc.), juggling is fairly restricted (being able to connect ANYTHING after a normal against an airborne opponent who is not already in a jugglable state is relatively unusual), etc.
It certainly might make the game more enjoyable at the low level of play that most people are at including myself (systems that make it easier to jump at people tend to do that), but it might make the game even more tedious at the higher level. I'm sure they gave it a try, though: after all, the game has plenty of SFA characters in it.
In fact, it probably would've been a really fun System Direction option. SF3 games had it in System Direction, and it was kind of amusing.
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Spoon 2929th Post

  
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| "Re(10):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Sat 20 Jun 02:44    
quote: To add on the air guard issue: if I recall correctly, one of the numerous reason why Zankurô Musôken was a disaster was the poor way air guard was implemented. Of course, that wasn't the only issue in the game, far from it, but that was one of the worst air guard implementation I've ever seen (everything can be guarded freely... and the game is Samurai Spirits, not MvC3) and that alone was enough to make me worried of air guard in any non-versus game. The KOF98 one is good enough for me. And the Savior air guard is of course fantastic, but how could it not be.
Prof is right on the money with the business of throws being committed actions with whiffs. I can't believe I forgot to mention that! It's a big part of Guilty Gear, too, since throws can be option selected with fast normals (for better or for worse). I should check if Xrd still has FDC superjump, which more or less enables the strongest chicken block of any competitive game.
The counterpoint to all this to me will be Akatsuki Blitzkampf, in which everything is air guardable: supers, grounded moves, air moves, special moves... anything that isn't a throw. But the game itself is not an air dash/double jump game: it doesn't even have universal overheads, or short jump, or super jump! What it did have was a guard crush gauge, and one in which air blocking resulted in increased guard crush. Defending by holding up-back in the corner could lead to your opponent landing a full guard gauge guard crush strings! And being guard crushed in that game would see you landing in a vulnerable state for a lengthy time, so it's incredibly dangerous.
I think Vs. series games would be a lot less fun and also competitively less interesting if air blocking wasn't able to cover all bases the way it does. There is so much stuff getting thrown onto the screen all the time which enables continuous rushing strings from the ground and air that it just needs to be able to do that.
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nobinobita 1429th Post

  
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| "Re(3):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 14:20:    
quote: It's not an indicator of the breast proportion; that's what the letter is an indicator of. You have to take into account that Chunli is a character who works out, and most likely has some development around her chest and upperback region. A good point! But then again, I'm pretty sure that my memory isn't too far off.
Ah i love those illustrations! Chun Li has always had huge breasts in the art, they just weren't in your face about it (focus has always been on her legs).
Quote from Yoko Shimomura:
"Chun-Li has big thighs, right? So back in the day, I asked Mr. Yasuda, "Why does she have such big thighs?" And he started shouting and went off and was like, "I can't believe you don't understand the appeal." And he started explaining the attraction. And you know, I'm a woman and I asked the question but it kind of got awkward when he started explaining his fetishes. I mean, he has really strong feelings toward his creations. There's a reason for everything being the way that it is. When I heard that, I thought maybe that's something that everybody thinks, but everybody doesn't go out telling everybody. But he just told me."
source: http://www.polygon.com/a/street-fighter-2-oral-history/chapter-2 (Polygon has some excellent articles sometimes!)
As Doshin has pointed out, muscle contributes greatly to bust size, which is why the men in Street Fighter have always had bust sizes that dwarf the women's.
Chun Li: 88cm (34") Dhalsim: 107cm (42") Ryu: 112cm (44") Ken: 114cm (44") Boxer: 120cm (47") Spanish Ninja: 121cm (48") Guile: 125cm (49") Sagat: 130cm (51") Dictator: 129cm (52") Zangief: 163cm (64") Blanka: 198cm (77") E Honda: 212cm (83")
Someone should make one of those bust size profile charts out of this list.
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[this message was edited by nobinobita on Mon 22 Jun 14:23] |
Baines 435th Post
  
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| "Re(3):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Tue 23 Jun 03:34    
quote: I don't know, there's a pretty song subtext in that article beyond "the physics are inaccurate," even in some of the quotations. It looks like typical puritanical nonsense masquerading as some earnest concern about the supposed "sexualization of the character," whatever that's supposed to mean.
Okay, I've reread the article, and I've still not seen the subtext that you've apparently seen. The closest I can get is a two sentence spot in the article that one could read as a negative explanation of why few people appear to be upset about Chun Li's breast size.
The article itself is largely neutral. It reports quotes (both full tweets and some excerpt words from Reddit) of people complaining about the animation. It has a brief bit on issues with jiggle physics in games. It ends by supporting Capcom's explanation that the animation was a glitch.
As for the tweets, there are nine quoted. Five complain directly about the animation. A sixth is presumably complaining about the animation when he says "Chun Li's alien boobs".
Of the remaining three, one complains about the impracticality of fighting with such breasts. But that ties back to the animation, as large but more restrained breasts wouldn't be "a hazard to herself". For the record, looking at that poster's Twitter feed shows that they had also retweeted someone else specifically complaining about the poorly done animation.
The final two tweets instead talk about Chun Li's nipple bulges ... in the context of Capcom's explanation that the animation was a glitch. The article takes those tweets as posts by people who question Capcom's explanation, which is also how I read those tweets. I don't see any "typical puritanical nonsense" or the like. I admit that I haven't read through the replies to the article, but that seems a bit beside the point.
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shin ramberk 423th Post

  
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| "Re(2):I miss Q" , posted Fri 10 Jul 01:48    
quote: I would like to see Q make a comeback. Anybody else? I think he has potential, and the mystery around him needs to be solved.
I'm with you, but I think the Q dream died when they showed how Birdie plays in SF5, which is too similar to Q to allow both at least in the first version of the game (limited cast and all). Slow but wide reaching normals, self-buff, big hurt box...
Actually, I'm starting to wonder if the Q situation at Capcom might be like the K999 situation, a.k.a. "we shall never mention his name ever again". I don't think the holders of the IP of Robot Keiji complained officially, but...
I think you're right about the Q/Birdie comparison. It's a shame because I'm a fan of both characters and I'm ecstatic with the return of Birdie. I think his changes have made him more interesting.
I also see this as a similar situation with Remy. With Charlie in the game, it really robs Remy any chances of returning. Anything is possible but I doubt it. I'll probably really enjoy using Charlie but I always wanted Remy to return to a future game. He was always a good variation of Guile.
So far, it seems that Capcom have been mindful of providing good revamps of the classics. My optimism continues that this game will continue the trend started by SF4 in gaining more interest by new/casual players while providing satisfying play for veterans. (Thank goodness for Sony.)
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Just a Person 1655th Post

  
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| "Re(4):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Fri 10 Jul 22:57    
quote: Karin is unpopular?Well, maybe in the US, but in Japan is apparently another story. I mean, Karin was a character in a Comic Gamest spinoff story on Zero 2 that some lunatic thought would be fun to toss in among the cast of thousands in Zero 3. Even if she happened to have been "popular" in Japan or the US and not just a (fun) throwaway character, I don't think that stretched beyond the world of Zero 3. Is she "relevant?" 17 years later with no word, I'd say no.
There was a rumor that back in the days of the SFIV upgrades, Karin was actually highly requested. Problem is, as you said, she wasn't really created by Capcom, so there were licensing issues preventing her inclusion. I don't know if it's true, but it's unlikely that she was left out of the SFIV upgrades because of popularity - I mean, how popular are characters like Hugo, Elena or Adon?
Now, about the current rumor about the SFV cast, it's weird to see that this game could have Karin and Nash... but not Sakura and Guile (who are not only much more popular, but who are strongly tied to Karin's and Nash's backstories and motivations). Then again, if Capcom decided to put Birdie in this game and redesign Ken to the point where he is very different from Ryu, I'd rather not doubt any rumor, no matter how weird it is.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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shin ramberk 424th Post

  
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| "Re(5):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Sat 11 Jul 00:12    
quote: Now, about the current rumor about the SFV cast, it's weird to see that this game could have Karin and Nash... but not Sakura and Guile (who are not only much more popular, but who are strongly tied to Karin's and Nash's backstories and motivations). Then again, if Capcom decided to put Birdie in this game and redesign Ken to the point where he is very different from Ryu, I'd rather not doubt any rumor, no matter how weird it is.
My preference would be for the cast to be 1/3 classics, 1/3 new and 1/3 heavily revamped classics. Right now it looks to me that Ryu, Chun Li, Cammy have the least amount of changes and Birdie, Nash, Vega and Ken have a lot more revamping.
I am perfectly okay with some fan favorites to be missing. For example, if Zangief and Sakura were to be missing I would be okay with that. If they were to return, I'd want them heavily revamped. But that's just me.
It looks like Capcom is taking some calculated risks here and that's good. SF4 with the focus system replaced by the v-system is a good thing but you need to revamp the characters or we'll get bored a lot faster.
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Spoon 2953th Post

  
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| "Re(6): intolerable BGM" , posted Sun 12 Jul 13:03    
quote: But, but the 3S soundtrack is such dross compared to the smooth grooves of the first two! "3S: as slow-paced as SFZero2 without the cheerfulness, as dull as the dumber SFZero3 tracks without the fun bass."
The problem for me with the 2I OST is that it's TOO smooth. It's smooth to the point where there are tracks which I have no idea how to associate with the character, like Ibuki's theme or Ryu's theme. The music is totally enjoyable to listen to, and I don't want to insist that all my fighting game music has to have pounding bass and pulsing intense rhythm, but a lot of the time when I was first playing 2I I found myself wondering if this was some hacked/bootleg version with the music swapped.
Some of the songs in 2I sound like precursors to Nujabes tracks, which I can dig.
I do appreciate that SF kept bringing new styles of music into its games, though! I quite liked the SFA3 music, even though it seemed to veer far away from the iconic theme songs of SF2. I still think it has some amazing visual/audio moments, like when the -ism slams into place at the start of the match.
quote:
I'm going to take inspiration from Doshin's comment and say SFV should be purely and ridiculously in one style, so let's make it dubstep. I would also dig an all-bluegrass or all-ska SFV.
If we're going all-ska, I instead propose a move to jazz fusion, except instead of the marimba-infused 2I style, we take what seems to be jazz's noisecore, Moon Hooch. They literally sound like a bunch of angry geese at times, which makes me think they would actually be a better for a new Fatal Fury.
quote:
Or maybe they can save us a lot of time and just use Shimomura's tracks straight from SFII.
Ooh, fun experiment: suppose that's what they did for all returning characters. In order to maintain that same spirit, what do they do for new characters/characters that didn't exist for SF2?
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TheRedKnight 412th Post

  
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| "Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 13 Jul 04:21:    
quote:
Zangief's theme certainly felt that way! Could all of it be categorized that way, though? It certainly seemed like a lot of ending/credit songs of the 90s had some sort of smooth jazz element to it. I don't know enough about music, though, so do enlighten me!
I feel that the best way to start this discussion is to link this: Guile's Jam.. ..or is it?
If you take your time and listen to the big names in Japanese jazz fusion* you'll start to see the big picture which is that there isn't much originality in 80's video game soundtracks. Back then video game music composers just took what was popular and didn't need vocals. Jazz fusion was perfect for that. These guys and gals companies like Sega and Capcom hired were just musically talented engineers, not really composers. Not people who could churn out an album full of original hits. If they could, they would not be working for video game companies would they?
For example, Out Run took everything possible from Naoya Matsuoka's body of work. Even the idea of sounds of the waves splashing is from Matsuoka's album. They just transferred those ideas into a video game. Just like the characters from Street Fighter are just based on anime/manga influences. You get what I mean.
These are just my opinions, as I'm sure some people don't want to hear this kind of stuff.
*T-Square, Casiopea, Naniwa Experience, Naoya Matsuoka, Prism, etc they're all on Youtube.
videograpple.tumblr.com/
[this message was edited by TheRedKnight on Sun 26 Jul 19:14] |
neo0r0chiaku 65th Post

  
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| "Re(2):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 13 Jul 07:13:    
quote: Zangief's theme certainly felt that way! Could all of it be categorized that way, though? It certainly seemed like a lot of ending/credit songs of the 90s had some sort of smooth jazz element to it. I don't know enough about music, though, so do enlighten me!
I feel that the best way to start this disctussion is to link this: Guile's Jam.. ..or is it?
If you take your time and listen to the big names in Japanese jazz fusion* you'll start to see the big picture which is that there isn't much originality in 80's video game soundtracks. Back then video game music composers just took what was popular and didn't need vocals. Jazz fusion was perfect for that. These guys and gals companies like Sega and Capcom hired were just musically talented engineers, not really composers. Not people who could churn out an album full of original hits. If they could, they would not be working for video game companies would they?
For example, Out Run took everything possible from Naoya Matsuoka's body of work. Even the idea of sounds of the waves splashing is from Matsuoka's album. They just transferred those ideas into a video game. Just like the characters from Street Fighter are just based on anime/manga influences. You get what I mean.
These are just my opinions, as I'm sure some people don't want to hear this kind of stuff.
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
Its funny how you brought this up because lately i have been adding to a youtube playlist of musics or songs that VGMs from the 90s sampled from back in the 80s and 70s. Many VGMs sampled from various types of music and artists. Dance, Electronic, rock, Jazz etc. I was baffled with some of the tracks I found from video games. nowadays, people are using these VGMs from the 90s into songs at this point of time. Sample to be sampled!!!
quote: *T-Square, Casiopea, Naniwa Experience, Naoya Matsuoka, Prism, etc they're all on
Japanese jazz fusion from the 70s and 80s. Sounds like i will be having some new music to listen to this week at work! Thanks for this information. The music sounds great!
Long Live!
[this message was edited by neo0r0chiaku on Mon 13 Jul 07:21] |
karasu 1529th Post

  
PSN: robotchris XBL: robotchris Wii: n/a
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| "Re(7):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Tue 21 Jul 00:32    
quote: So.. no one cares about the new character? The design is pretty all-over-the-place-yet-boring-at-the-same-time AKA Killer Instict style. Designwise there's not really that much special to him. I didn't really think of him as like Kars, either. It seems Capcom just wanted to have some edgy character that western fans might like...? I agree that he is pretty boring in that aspect. Can't say much about the gameplay part, yet.
Truthfully, I'm not especially put off by his design. As to whether I like him as a playable character or not, I'll have to try him out to see.
I think Capcom is in a funny spot right now, where nearly everything they produce gets put under a microscope to find out just what it is that everyone hates the most (which has been my experience with reading people's reactions elsewhere online). This guy has a lot of shades of Blanka to me, or is at least a similarly out there 'bestial' character, and my guess is that in 1991 nobody was screaming about how awful and how much of a Wolverine ripoff Blanka was. It's funny, when this guy was teased at the end of Ken's intro video, within about half an hour a few people I know went through a series of speculations about who he was, and for each speculation, they had an accompanying reason why he would suck, but none about why he would be interesting or good.
Personally I'm always happy when Capcom takes a chance and introduces a new character, and as far as SFIV was concerned, I was mixed as to which ones I liked. I suspect we'll never return to the glory days of SFIII when a tiny subset of returners will be accompanied by an almost entirely new cast, but any direction away from 'Super SFII plus a few new folks' is just fine with me.
You have to carefully reproduce the world of "Castlevania" in the solemn atmosphere.
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nobinobita 1455th Post

  
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| "Re(7):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sun 9 Aug 11:59:    
quote: I actually hope they keep Vega as a noncharge character. It fosters a playstyle more suited to his speed. On the other hand, I think Birdie should probably go back to such. Looking back on it I'm not certain why Vega has been a charge character all this time. The only reason he has remained one for so long is because those were the motions he was initially given and I suspect no one at Capcom back then gave the matter too much thought.
I think special move inputs were originally assigned based on how they matched up to the motion of the action on screen. So QCF conveys the feeling of the iconic fireball motion. DP represents the feeling of moving forward, then crouching down for some leverage and releasing that energy in an upward motion. The charge moves represent storing energy and releasing it in the opposing direction. They all "feel" right.
I think for gameplay purposes, the general convention is also that if a special launches the entire character quickly in a straight line, it will be a charge move. Blanka's roll, E Honda's torpedo, the Psycho Crusher, Urien's chariot tackle, Vega's roll and dive attacks. They all "feel" right as charge moves.
Cammy's Spiral Arrow still has a little bit of an arc to it, so it feels better as a QCF. I think it's mostly about feeling and intuition (I can usually guess a Capcom character's move inputs from the way the animation looks. I can't do this for SNK games consistently)
Also, I think if some moves could come out even quicker without a charge, the characters would be overpowered. I remember playing CVS2 on a Gamecube, where you could assign special move shortcuts. A blanka who can walk forward into a roll is terrifying!
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[this message was edited by nobinobita on Sun 9 Aug 12:02] |
Spoon 3005th Post

  
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| "Re(8):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sun 9 Aug 15:48    
quote: I actually hope they keep Vega as a noncharge character. It fosters a playstyle more suited to his speed. On the other hand, I think Birdie should probably go back to such. Looking back on it I'm not certain why Vega has been a charge character all this time. The only reason he has remained one for so long is because those were the motions he was initially given and I suspect no one at Capcom back then gave the matter too much thought.
I think special move inputs were originally assigned based on how they matched up to the motion of the action on screen. So QCF conveys the feeling of the iconic fireball motion. DP represents the feeling of moving forward, then crouching down for some leverage and releasing that energy in an upward motion. The charge moves represent storing energy and releasing it in the opposing direction. They all "feel" right.
I think for gameplay purposes, the general convention is also that if a special launches the entire character quickly in a straight line, it will be a charge move. Blanka's roll, E Honda's torpedo, the Psycho Crusher, Urien's chariot tackle, Vega's roll and dive attacks. They all "feel" right as charge moves.
Cammy's Spiral Arrow still has a little bit of an arc to it, so it feels better as a QCF. I think it's mostly about feeling and intuition (I can usually guess a Capcom character's move inputs from the way the animation looks. I can't do this for SNK games consistently)
Also, I think if some moves co
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
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Spoon 3007th Post

  
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| "Re(8):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sun 9 Aug 15:48:    
quote: I actually hope they keep Vega as a noncharge character. It fosters a playstyle more suited to his speed. On the other hand, I think Birdie should probably go back to such. Looking back on it I'm not certain why Vega has been a charge character all this time. The only reason he has remained one for so long is because those were the motions he was initially given and I suspect no one at Capcom back then gave the matter too much thought.
I think special move inputs were originally assigned based on how they matched up to the motion of the action on screen. So QCF conveys the feeling of the iconic fireball motion. DP represents the feeling of moving forward, then crouching down for some leverage and releasing that energy in an upward motion. The charge moves represent storing energy and releasing it in the opposing direction. They all "feel" right.
I think for gameplay purposes, the general convention is also that if a special launches the entire character quickly in a straight line, it will be a charge move. Blanka's roll, E Honda's torpedo, the Psycho Crusher, Urien's chariot tackle, Vega's roll and dive attacks. They all "feel" right as charge moves.
Cammy's Spiral Arrow still has a little bit of an arc to it, so it feels better as a QCF. I think it's mostly about feeling and intuition (I can usually guess a Capcom character's move inputs from the way the animation looks. I can't do this for SNK games consistently)
Also, I think if some moves co
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
In the beginning the notion of "the motion should mimic what the person is doing" was a big deal, but as the games have progressed that has mostly stopped mattering and it's mostly become "which archetype do we want to stick on this character for a given playstyle". The entire reason why Dhalsim's teleports use all 3 punches/kicks in ST I believe is because there aren't different versions of the move for each of the different strengths of punch/kick. Now, it using the DP motion is partly because they didn't want to make it charge and he's already got a fireball, but the notion of the motion mimicking the animation/action is totally out the window. On the flip side, in USF4, Decapre could totally be a command character and not a charge character and it would feel just fine, but it'd probably be too powerful.
Charge motions are really convenient for making moves that are safe on block, or giving them advantageous startups/recoveries since the charge naturally limits how frequently you can throw it out. Guile's sonic boom in CvS2 starts up fast and recovers fast, so with Easy Operation in the console version, it's monstrous. The whole "move forwards horizontally" thing is quite relevant for this because making the move a charge move means that the character can't walk forward and then do this move. This is big! It's one thing that it leads to needing technique/supplemental moves that allow the character to move forward while building/holding charge (e.g. Guile's b+HK makes him step FORWARD and kick, rather than sliding backwards as the motion would suggest, like in the manner of his b+MK), but it also encourages interesting character design built around this. Dictator Bison gets a very fast walk speed and some strong horizontal and close normals, like his deadly standing LK, along with great throw range and throw damage... but walking forward negates his ability to charge! Not only that, he has no command normals which move him forwards! So when he advances on the ground, he loses the ability to immediately call upon his fast, safe on block scissor kicks. Certain normals of his also cannot be cancelled into scissor kick if he hasn't either gotten close enough to land a series of blocked attacks that would let him build charge (so walking up, doing a d+MK doesn't immediately yield a combo into scissor kicks, but getting very close yields the deadly and safe st.LK st.LK cr.MK xx scisssor).
So how does that play into Claw's SF2 game? Claw has the fastest walk speed in the game, long reaching normals, and much like Dictator, no normals that move him forwards. What that means is that if he wants to do a special move, he can't do it if he's walking forwards and angling for a throw. One of his important and threatening actions, walking forwards, completely shuts off his ability activate some of his others. That's huge.
The technique which charge necessitates together with the strategic considerations it creates can be really interesting, and that's something which non-charge characters never really have to deal with. Charge characters often get higher-quality moves of certain kinds (e.g. projectiles) because the limitations on performing them balances them.
[this message was edited by Spoon on Sun 9 Aug 17:53] |
chazumaru 1539th Post

  
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| "Re(3):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 16:36    
I assume Ex Robert had many additional property changes in KOF2002UM (new hitboxes, priorities and moves), and not simply the different commands, right?
Here we go:
quote: Ciudad Juarez, Mexico July 2011 Tier List for KOF 2001:
Banned: Igniz and Original Zero
S+: May Lee, Angel, Foxy (w/unblockable), Hinako (w/infinite), Kula (w/infinite)
S- King, Heidern, Takuma, Robert
A: Vanessa, Iori, Clark, Leona, Choi, Yuri
Mid Tier: Everyone else
Même Narumi est épatée !
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Loona 907th Post

  
PSN: IkariLoona XBL: n/a Wii: n/a
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| "Re(9):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 18:59    
quote: Dictator Bison gets a very fast walk speed and some strong horizontal and close normals, like his deadly standing LK, along with great throw range and throw damage... but walking forward negates his ability to charge! Not only that, he has no command normals which move him forwards! So when he advances on the ground, he loses the ability to immediately call upon his fast, safe on block scissor kicks. Certain normals of his also cannot be cancelled into scissor kick if he hasn't either gotten close enough to land a series of blocked attacks that would let him build charge (so walking up, doing a d+MK doesn't immediately yield a combo into scissor kicks, but getting very close yields the deadly and safe st.LK st.LK cr.MK xx scisssor).
Well, Dictator does have his slide, which moves him forward and can be used while charging vertically or horizontally (even if it's not a terribly safe move, it can catch less experienced players unaware), and must be blocked low - I don't recall if his scissors kick must be blocked high (or of that depends on the game), but if so, that's a little mind game he can apply. Claw has a slide too, so that might apply to him as well - I'm far from a master of either character.
Doing away with motions like Sommersault Justice is in the very least a stop forward, and that alone makes Claw more of an option for me if that's changing as well, even if I'm not expecting to pay much attention t SF5 for the time being.
...!!
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Baines 441th Post
  
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| "Re(9):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 22:59    
quote: In the beginning the notion of "the motion should mimic what the person is doing" was a big deal,
Looking closer, it seemed a bit more "follow the standards" than "follow the action" anyway.
Ryu's Hadoken is as much a back-to-forward move as it is "down-to-forward". If you ever had anyone demonstrate it (or perhaps demonstrated it yourself) while talking about inputs mimicking motion, then I'm willing to bet that person exaggerated the downward part of the beginning.
As for the Shoryuken, you have a move where the purpose is to go up into the air that never has an upward input, and which ends on a downward input. There is no "forward" to the start of a shoryuken, as the move starts with "downward". (If you want to say that "forward" comes from the standing start, the hadoken also starts standing but doesn't start with "forward".)
The hurricane kick is a spinning kick that moves forward, but has a QCB input. One would think it would be back-to-forward as well, or end in forward.
A lot of this seems as much mechanical concerns as any attempt for inputs to mimic the starting actions. The dragon punch didn't have an "up" component in order to prevent accidental jumping when the player failed the input. The hurricane kick was QCB in order to prevent overlapping with the fireball, even if the two used different button.
So the most iconic motions were at best shaky on the "mimic the action" concept. Later Capcom characters would alter the concept further, with inputs that reflected motion beyond the start-up (as the explanation for Ryu's moves require that you cut off the input after the start-up in order to justify the dragon punch not ending in an upward direction and the hurricane kick not ending in forward.)
Charge moves tended to carry basic direction-of-movement information, but even that was hit-and-miss. Chun-Li's forward moving spinning kick was charge-down-to-up (with people saying it reflected the flip she did at the start), while the forward moves of other charge characters were back-to-forward. (Of course once people realized how overpowered crouch-block was, every charge character effectively ended up starting their moves by rising from a crouching pose.)
Of course we do have some wacky SNK inputs...
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Spoon 3007th Post

  
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| "Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Tue 11 Aug 06:17    
quote: Well, Dictator does have his slide, which moves him forward and can be used while charging vertically or horizontally (even if it's not a terribly safe move, it can catch less experienced players unaware), and must be blocked low - I don't recall if his scissors kick must be blocked high (or of that depends on the game), but if so, that's a little mind game he can apply. Claw has a slide too, so that might apply to him as well - I'm far from a master of either character.
Doing away with motions like Sommersault Justice is in the very least a stop forward, and that alone makes Claw more of an option for me if that's changing as well, even if I'm not expecting to pay much attention t SF5 for the time being.
I guess I excluded those because they have traditionally been very unsafe on block outside of highly specific situations. Like in CvS2, Bison slide could be safe on block if it was done extremely meaty, but it's definitely not a "regular poke that moves you forward + lets you build charge" like Guile's step kick. Scissor kick has never been an overhead, thank goodness.
The super motions being bigger and grander motions (e.g. ZANGIEF'S SUPER IS TWO SPDs SO YOU SHOULD DO TWO 360s) as the supers are for most characters bigger and grander versions of existing moves, while also making them more difficult to use in combos, as well as introducing new challenges to their execution (e.g. how to buffer a 720). But it clearly isn't the case that Ryu or anybody else with a QCFx2 does a double pump with their hands in their super.
The QCF+PPP makes a lot of sense!
A long time ago, especially when I was really new to fighting games, successfully executing a super felt like an achievement. It literally was learning a technique, and while it can be derided as "going through the motions" (quite literally!), there's something to the learning of being able to do something fluently that is special. It's like doing dance steps or becoming fluent in a piece of music: yeah, they're rigidly defined and you are literally going through the motions, but the entire notion of "adding to a repertoire" is a real and gratifying thing. Especially in the day when your arcade budget was limited, choosing to put your money into a game where you can't do all the moves because you don't have the mechanical proficiency yet was a big decision! I don't know if I'm relieved at not having to have to deal with that anymore or if I'm sad that a generation will grow up without getting to feel that special feeling of "Wow! I can do this now!".
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Loona 909th Post

  
PSN: IkariLoona XBL: n/a Wii: n/a
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| "Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Tue 11 Aug 18:29:    
quote: Looking closer, it seemed a bit more "follow the standards" than "follow the action" anyway.
Ryu's Hadoken is as much a back-to-forward move as it is "down-to-forward". If you ever had anyone demonstrate it (or perhaps demonstrated it yourself) while talking about inputs mimicking motion, then I'm willing to bet that person exaggerated the downward part of the beginning.
As for the Shoryuken, you have a move where the purpose is to go up into the air that never has an upward input, and which ends on a downward input. There is no "forward" to the start of a shoryuken, as the move starts with "downward". (If you want to say that "forward" comes from the standing start, the hadoken also starts standing but doesn't start with "forward".)
The hurricane kick is a spinning kick that moves forward, but has a QCB input. One would think it would be back-to-forward as well, or end in forward.
A lot of this seems as much mechanical concerns as any attempt for inputs to mimic the starting actions. The dragon punch didn't have an "up" component in order to prevent accidental jumping when the player failed the input. The hurricane kick was QCB in order to prevent overlapping with the fireball, even if the two used different button.
So the most iconic motions were at best shaky on the "mimic the action" concept. Later Capcom characters would alter the concept further, with inputs that reflected motion beyond the start-up (as the explanation for Ryu's moves require that you cut off the input after the start-up in order to justify the dragon punch not ending in an upward direction and the hurricane kick not ending in forward.)
The way I see it, the motions make sense in terms of how the body would shift to perform them and/or how they're aimed.
For the Hadoken, to me the core of it is that Ryu starts by grounding himself to build up power before thrusting forward. Look at his back leg - its all about going from a slightly bent position to stretching it, pushing the ground under him to thrust his center of mass forward - Hadokens and their game/anime ilk are basically ways to visualize this kind of application of force.
For an interesting example of the importance of footwork in martial arts, look into Kung Fu Hustle - while the movie usually doesn't take itself too seriously, you can still tell the people who coreographed it knew a thing or two about martial arts basics (the scenes involving applying twists to joints are particularly amazing, and something I've rarely seen given that much emphasized focus despite their importance in martial arts). Later in the film when the protagonist "awakens", his very first actions against the antagonist gang don't involve his hands at all - it's all footwork and how he shifts his weight to move between his opponents, dodging, pushing and throwing them off-balance (edit: actually he does punch a bit, but the lack of arm work early on is still remarkable for an action movie).
For the Shoryuken, if you think of it as an emphasized uppercut, disregarding the fact it takes to the skies (it's often at its best when it lands the early hit still in the ground), it also makes some more sense - to be effective you have to be at closer range ( ) than a more traditional straight punch (the arm's more bent), and it's a hit from below that's generally meant to hit either under the ribs or the chin, meaning that the arm's movement starts and ideally ends slightly below a more conventional punching height.
As for the Tatsumaki, while it does make the character move forward, it does involve him turning away from the opponent (multiple times depending on the kick strength) in order to spin the way he does. IIRC Street Fighter EX at least the early games, took this notion to heart by making you perform a QCB+K for every kick actually performed in the move, since each kick made you spin one more time. Something like Marco's Hienshippukyaku in Garou can be a QCF since it's a strictly forward-moving attack while the character's always facing his opponent, but SF took a different route early on and stuck to it. That it worked out and kept the motion clearly distinct from the other Ansatsuken specials was a fortunate case.
quote: It's an interesting problem that you can also see echoes of in the console versions of Fatal Fury, which made the rest of the cast playable (but which, if I remember right, were completely different sets of commands because the ports were handled by two different companies), and of the move from Fatal Fury 2 to Special, which made the bosses from 2 (and Geese) playable for the first time.
Technically Geese was first playable in the Megadrive port of FF1 - he didn't have nearly as many moves, but IIRC his counter used that game's throw button, which is a terribly adequate thing that only the DoA series is even close to replicate AFAIK.
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[this message was edited by Loona on Tue 11 Aug 22:37] |
nobinobita 1455th Post

  
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| "Re(2):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Tue 11 Aug 18:46    
quote: The way I see it, the motions make sense in terms of how the body would shift to perform them and/or how they're aimed.
For the Hadoken, to me the core of it is that Ryu starts by grounding himself to build up power before thrusting forward. Look at his back leg - its all about going from a slightly bent position to stretching it, pushing the ground under him to thrust his center of mass forward - Hadokens and their game/anime ilk are basically ways to visualize this kind of application of force.
For an interesting example of the importance of footwork in martial arts, look into Kung Fu Hustle - while the movie usually doesn't take itself too seriously, you can still tell the people who coreographed it knew a thing or two about martial arts basics (the scenes involving applying twists to joins are particularly amazing, and something I've rarely seen given that much emphasized focus despite their importance in martial arts). Later in the film when the protagonist "awakens", his very first actions agains the antagonist gang don't involve his hands at all - i't all footwork and how he shifts his weight to move between his opponents, dodging, pushing and throwing them off-balance.
For the Shoryuken, if you think of it as an emphasized uppercut, disregarding the fact it takes to the skies (it's often at its best when it lands the early hit still in the ground), it also makes some more sense - to be effective you have to be at closer range () than a more traditional straight punch (the arm's more bent), and it's a hit from below that's generally meant to hit either under the ribs or the chin, meaning that the arm's movement starts and ideally ends slightly below a more conventional punching height.
As for the Tatsumaki, while it does make the character move forward, it does involve him turning away from the opponent (multiple times depending on the kick strength) in order to spin the way he does. IIRC Street Fighter EX at least the early games, took this notion to heart by making you perform a QCB+K for every kick actually performed in the move, since each kick made you spin one more time. Something like Marco's Hienshippukyaku in Garou can be a QCF since it's a strictly forward moving attack while the character's always facing his opponent, but SF took a different route early on and stuck to it. That it worked out and kept the motion clearly distinct from the other Ansatsuken specials was a fortunate case.
This guy know's what's up.
Thanks for conveying this way better than I could have. Do you have experience with martial arts in real life?
 www.art-eater.com
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