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Professor
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"Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Thu 27 Sep 16:32post reply

Fighting games confirmed for the year 2018:

- Dissidia Final Fantasy / Jan 11
- Street Fighter V AE / Jan 17
- Dragon Ball FighterZ / Jan 26, Feb 1
- Under Night In-Birth Exe:Late[st] / JP:2017 , NA^EU: Feb 9
- Blazblue Cross Tag Battle / May 31
- Fighting EX Layer / June 24
- Blade Strangers / Arcade:Aug 8, PS4|Switch: Aug 30
- SNK Heroines Tag Team Frenzy / September 9

- Soul Calibur VI / October 19
- Street Fighter 30th Anniversay Collection (feat.Exodus) / May 29 | JP: October 25
- Million Arthur Arcana Blood / PS4: November 29
- Smash Bros. Switch / December 7
- Guilty Gear XX ACore Plus R for Nintendo Switch / TBA
- Kungfu vs Karate / Arcades: TBA | Steam: July 26






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Professor
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"Re(1):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Thu 27 Sep 17:26post reply

Out of curiousity--- is anyone here planning on getting Soul Calibur 6 or Million Aurther for PS4? Depending on the number, I might host a lagfest for that.







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"Re(2):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Thu 27 Sep 21:44post reply

I'm picking up SC6 although I haven't touched the series in forever and a day. Once I figure out what the buttons do I would be up for a few embarrassing matches.





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"Re(3):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Thu 27 Sep 22:47post reply

quote:
I'm picking up SC6 although I haven't touched the series in forever and a day. Once I figure out what the buttons do I would be up for a few embarrassing matches.



Cool, we can try it out if you're interested-- I don't know the series at all but the soul will never die.


REMINDER: There's an open beta this weekend for console platforms!





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"Re(2):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Thu 27 Sep 23:33post reply

quote:
Out of curiousity--- is anyone here planning on getting Soul Calibur 6 or Million Aurther for PS4? Depending on the number, I might host a lagfest for that.



I pre ordered SC6 and same with me, I have not played since um 2 in full? I played others but reaaaaaal briefly. Mainly just part 4.

For Million Arthur is it the same like Arcana Hearts? I mean I fell asleep on that game. How do you fall asleep while playing fighting games?





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"Re(4):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Fri 28 Sep 04:25:post reply

Oh I'm definitely getting SC6. I might even get serious about it haha.

quote:

REMINDER: There's an open beta this weekend for console platforms!


Yup! And it's free afaik, no purchase needed. It starts tomorrow, but if you're on PS4 you can queue it up for download here starting today. (At least for NA, not sure if this links to a EU or JP release.)





[this message was edited by Gojira on Fri 28 Sep 04:26]



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"Re(5):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Fri 28 Sep 07:01:post reply

I will almost certainly get Soul Calibur VI, at the risk of getting my heart broken again, and not to fear, Prof---the series has kind of sucked since the nearly perfect first two entries, so it will be new all over again for many of us, too!

...the caveat is that I'm not sure my computer can meet the minimum requirements, so I'm waiting for you, the Cafe clientele, to tell me whether it's worth an upgrade!





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[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 28 Sep 08:12]

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"Re(6):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Fri 28 Sep 07:45post reply

quote:
I will almost certainly get Soul Calibur VI, at the risk of getting my heart broken again, and not to fear, Prof---the series has kind of sucked since the nearly perfect first two entries, so it will be new all over again for many of us, too!

...the caveat is that I'm not sure my computer can meet the minimum requirements, so I'm waiting for you, the Cafe clientelle, to tell me whether it's worth an upgrade!



My wife heard of a pretty sweet Amazon deal during E3 and pre-ordered the game for 50 bucks Canadian (which is kind of a steal, since it's now CDN $80). So looks like I'll be playing thanks to her.





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"Re(7):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Fri 28 Sep 08:13post reply

quote:

My wife heard of a pretty sweet Amazon deal during E3 and pre-ordered the game for 50 bucks Canadian (which is kind of a steal, since it's now CDN $80). So looks like I'll be playing thanks to her.

Truly an outstanding woman! Ah, takes me back to the old days...





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"Re(2):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Fri 28 Sep 10:00post reply

quote:
Out of curiousity--- is anyone here planning on getting Soul Calibur 6 or Million Aurther for PS4? Depending on the number, I might host a lagfest for that.



My youngest brother already pre-ordered "SCVI". As much as I want to get the latest "MA" game now, I already planned on getting the latest "Toejam and Earl" and "Streets of Rage" games. I will have a delay set until next year most likely.







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"Re(3):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Sun 30 Sep 08:51post reply

Did anyone get a chance to try out the SC6 demo? I would be curious to hear the reactions of those who know the series think of the new mechanics and general gameplay. Since I've never been any good at SC I can't comment on that aspect of the game. Still, I liked it even if I couldn't comprehend it!

One thing that did stick with me when playing was how smooth the movement is. When compared to the ducking shuffle of Tekken characters moving SC characters around a ring is a joy.

As for characters I tried a few rounds with Taki, Mitsurugi, Yoshimitsu, Geralt, and Zasalamel. The demo was surprisingly generous with the amount of playable characters. All that, and I didn't have to face any Nightmares online. That was such a stroke of good luck I probably should have been out buying lottery tickets instead. It's too early to tell who is going to be good or bad, although Talim and that anime guy seem like they have some cheap tricks. What is important is that everyone felt fun to play. I think it's going to be good to have SC back.





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"Re(4):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Sun 30 Sep 09:22post reply

quote:
Did anyone get a chance to try out the SC6 demo? I would be curious to hear the reactions of those who know the series think of the new mechanics and general gameplay. Since I've never been any good at SC I can't comment on that aspect of the game. Still, I liked it even if I couldn't comprehend it!

One thing that did stick with me when playing was how smooth the movement is. When compared to the ducking shuffle of Tekken characters moving SC characters around a ring is a joy.

As for characters I tried a few rounds with Taki, Mitsurugi, Yoshimitsu, Geralt, and Zasalamel. The demo was surprisingly generous with the amount of playable characters. All that, and I didn't have to face any Nightmares online. That was such a stroke of good luck I probably should have been out buying lottery tickets instead. It's too early to tell who is going to be good or bad, although Talim and that anime guy seem like they have some cheap tricks. What is important is that everyone felt fun to play. I think it's going to be good to have SC back.



How can we get the demo? I tried searching on the playstation store and didn't find it.





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"Re(4):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Sun 30 Sep 10:15:post reply

quote:
Did anyone get a chance to try out the SC6 demo? I would be curious to hear the reactions of those who know the series think of the new mechanics and general gameplay. Since I've never been any good at SC I can't comment on that aspect of the game. Still, I liked it even if I couldn't comprehend it!



I'm definitely playing it, but I can't really comment on anyone except Kilik because fights become scarcer at a lower level, which means I had to win my way to people with half-decent connections in order to get the best experience. I had to pick a character to be good with and learn as much as I could about them, and Kilik's really the only one in the demo I know more than a little about. If not for that issue I definitely would be trying to get a broader experience, but I guess that will have to wait until it's released in a couple more weeks.

As for how it feels, that is also a little hard to say without an offline comparison. When it feels good it feels good, but sometimes it also feels bad. There are times I can't tell if my timing is bad or a lag spike is affecting it, and it's probably both. So I have no baseline for how responsive the game is actually meant to be.

That said, there's a mix of good and bad. It's mostly good, but...

The good is the meter management, the return of guard impact as a defensive option, the light movement speed with decently-sized stages, and the lethal hit system which is cute, a bunch of specific moves with mini-tasks you can do during a match to break armor and get a big old stun/launcher. One of Kilik's for example is hitting his 4A 4 times, which is hilarious since this move is a low attack that Kiliks have been famous for spamming in every SC. He even counts along with it so that you know how many you've hit. Everyone has at least several of these, thought not all of them are as simple.

The bad is the reversal edge mechanic, which I'm being a little hard on only because it's very hard to read and even harder to tell if you're actually doing anything, rather detrimental to any learning. There's a flowchart out there that explains how it works and it's sickeningly complicated. But after all that, the good is that once you know what the initial attack looks like, it's easy to dodge and punish it.

Also Nightmare is a personal bad for me because he's ugly and safe and his moves are gross





[this message was edited by Gojira on Sun 30 Sep 10:17]

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"Re(5):Fighting Game Thread Fall 2018" , posted Sun 30 Sep 23:37post reply

quote:
How can we get the demo? I tried searching on the playstation store and didn't find it.


According to a previous post by Gojira, this link should send you to its download queue though I'm not sure if it's now changed. I tried word searching and it came up for me on JPSN.


I've only been able to play it a short time yesterday and hoping to do so a bit more before it ends tomorrow. There isn't much I can say since I haven't played the series since 2 and back then it was completely casual, but from what it felt like...

1/ The online seemed fine, at least from a casual player's perspective. A few connections were plain horrible from the opposing player very obviously using wireless connection.

2/ The new system in some ways is a scary thought. Basically it's a dodge attack which when hits, forces the opponent to go into a rocks-paper-sissors game. I think there's more to it than that, but not sure.

3/ I wish there was training mode while waiting for the connection!







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"A tale of souls and swords, eternally retold" , posted Thu 18 Oct 14:04post reply

So, a coworker brought Soul Calibur VI to the office today and we were playing as bit during lunch time. That would be as much as a poor PS4-less soul such as me can possibly afford, unless Namco decides to port the thing into Switch in half a year (which shouldn't be too difficult because, boy, it does look like a PS3 game).

Now, what the game lacks on the technical aspect it compensates with a nice presentation and a solid gameplay. I like the detail that the portraits on the character selection roster are actually the official illustrations, and not some ugly 3D renders as had been the case on recent Caliburs.

The gameplay has many flaws, that's for sure, but I have to admit that I had a blast kicking my coworker's ass. Combat feels fast and energetic, which is great, but also a bit too chaotic for its own good. It is easy to lose track of what's happening on the fight, and in that sense it feels closer to a 2D fighter, with all the specials, desperation moves and whatnot. That may be a plus for some people, but I always prefer my 3D fighters to be more slow paced. The matches can become quickly a button mashing contest, but once you know what you are doing there seems to be enough depth to the new systems to allow for interesting mind games, and for flashy bouts of polygonal violence too. Also, the clothes destruction feature feels silly and out of place, but that may just be me.

So, all in all, I'm glad to see this return of Soul Calibur. Not a perfect game, not the game I'd have liked to see, but a fun to play game nonetheless. The soul still burns!






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"Re(1):A tale of souls and swords, eternally r" , posted Fri 19 Oct 04:56post reply

I swear, everybody except me already has a copy of SC6. Hopefully I can play this weekend!

quote:
It is easy to lose track of what's happening on the fight, and in that sense it feels closer to a 2D fighter, with all the specials, desperation moves and whatnot.


It is odd how many sub-systems and meter management have found their way into SC. It's certainly a far cry from the early SC games where the games felt more about stances and positioning. I don't know how things like the reversal edge are going to play out but it at least makes it feel like SC6 is something new.

quote:
Also, the clothes destruction feature feels silly and out of place, but that may just be me.

Honestly, it's goofy but I sort of like it. Too many weapon based fighters focus on violence. Even things like Samurai Spirits can get gruesome depending on the game. This, however, makes it feel more exciting than brutal. We're going to beat each other naked!







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"Re(2):A tale of souls and swords, eternally r" , posted Fri 19 Oct 05:15post reply

quote:
I swear, everybody except me already has a copy of SC6. Hopefully I can play this weekend!

It is easy to lose track of what's happening on the fight, and in that sense it feels closer to a 2D fighter, with all the specials, desperation moves and whatnot.

It is odd how many sub-systems and meter management have found their way into SC. It's certainly a far cry from the early SC games where the games felt more about stances and positioning. I don't know how things like the reversal edge are going to play out but it at least makes it feel like SC6 is something new.

Also, the clothes destruction feature feels silly and out of place, but that may just be me.
Honestly, it's goofy but I sort of like it. Too many weapon based fighters focus on violence. Even things like Samurai Spirits can get gruesome depending on the game. This, however, makes it feel more exciting than brutal. We're going to beat each other naked!



I kind of liked how Tekken and SC were the games without super meters, but I've been around the games for so long that that being a novel aspect of them might just be me being old. I did like the weapon durability gauge, which put guard crush in the context of the weapon you have, though!

Clothes breaking in SC4 gave me the single most memorable moment of my time with the entire SC series, so I am fine with it being there. As Ishmael says, in spite of all the horrible things you do to people in the average SC fight, gore or blood have never been a part of the game's atmosphere, but I do agree that it sometimes veers a bit too far in the direction of Tamsoft fanservice.

I'm sure Kikkoken can't wait to blow off Astaroth's codpiece







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"Re(3):A tale of headaches, eternally retold" , posted Fri 19 Oct 11:24post reply

In just a few minutes of playing SC6, I find there is one thing about the game that is kind of nauseating: the whirling background as a result of 8-way run.

The camera always tries to keep the two fighters presented along a particular place in the screen, which makes sense, but due to the combination of the speed at which the characters move and the fact that they do so in fairly discrete steps, the background whirls in a really terrible fashion! In some cases, it seems to do so in a bunch of individual lurches (e.g. at medium distance if one person is doing most of the stepping), and in other cases it spins at hilarious speed (e.g. right up next to each other). Now that the backgrounds have so much detail, this creates an intense amount of noise on the screen and is headache-inducing/eyesore in a way that not even Rashid's flying stage in SFV can top.

I think I will have to play this game on PC, and with a mod that lets me turn the background off. It's just intolerable.







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"Re(4):A tale of cheesecake, eternally retold" , posted Fri 19 Oct 12:03:post reply

I'm looking forward everyone's continued impressions so I can decide whether Soul Calibur VI can assuage my obsessive worry over low attacks and 8-way run that I mentioned to Mosquiton above, and is thus worth getting a new laptop for. To paraphrase the late, great Scary Go Round, "Kind of a miscalculation. Turns out that getting a GeForce 960 GPU to meet the minimum requirement of a GeForce 1050 GPU ain't just 'a matter of being determined.'"

Anyway, I am all for a new Soul Calibur that gives me the joy of clothes-shredding from Soul Calibur IV and character creation from Soul Calibur III onward without the excruciating pain of playing either one of those games!





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[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 19 Oct 12:37]



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"Re(5):A tale of cheesecake, eternally retold" , posted Fri 19 Oct 17:26post reply

CaS delivering as always





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"Re(3):A tale of souls and swords, eternally r" , posted Fri 19 Oct 18:50post reply

I saw a student of mine playing Soul Calibur VI at Playstation Experience so I went over to ring him out with repeated Nightmare slaps.

Yeah the last SC I played didn't have any super meters, same with Tekken. "This is the game without meter" is how I thought of them compared to various 2D fighters.





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"Re(4):A tale of souls and swords, eternally r" , posted Sat 20 Oct 04:41post reply

quote:
I saw a student of mine playing Soul Calibur VI at Playstation Experience so I went over to ring him out with repeated Nightmare slaps.

Yeah the last SC I played didn't have any super meters, same with Tekken. "This is the game without meter" is how I thought of them compared to various 2D fighters.



I picked up the game on launch day and sticked in the disc when I got home, and... ack my PS4 is still in sleep mode, daily life just takes away so much time

I haven't touched the Soul Calibur series since 2. Very eager to play it this weekend...!

However the tier chart maker is already available (it was made about a week ago)







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"Re(5):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Sat 20 Oct 06:43:post reply

I wish the extraordinary creativity humankind has for creating phallic imagery could be applied towards things like world peace and climate change

<Lizardon joke goes here>





[this message was edited by Spoon on Sat 20 Oct 06:44]



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"Re(6):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Sat 20 Oct 13:40post reply

I’d like to elevate the discussion by reminding everyone that the original Japanese for Soul Calibur’s “Evil Seed” was “Evil Sperm.”

...uh.

Official Soul Calibur VI Lizardman remixes of classic songs:

Dong and Harvest
If There Were Any Other Dong
The Uncovered Hiss-tory





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"Re(7):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Mon 22 Oct 07:58post reply

Is there a way to configure the game so I only face nonsensical edit characters?

Anyway, what do people think of SC6 so far? At some point I'm going to have to play against human competition since I find I'm going for reversal edge far too much. While it does slow the pace of the game that's not enough of an incentive for me to quit going for that flashy attack. I need stronger negative reinforcement in order to stop hitting those buttons.

My bigger complaint is that there is currently not enough customization items. Although more will undoubtedly be added in the base costume set feels lackluster. As a grown man being able to play dress-up is a big selling point in a game. Hopefully SC6 steps up its outfit selection.

I do, however, like that all the costumes for the cast are available for mixing and matching and that I can do something as silly as making a skeleton talk like a small girl. When these two options are combined you can make it so that Talim's storyline took a very dark turn.

Even though I'm enjoying it in my own way so far it feels nice to have SC back.





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"Re(8):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Mon 22 Oct 11:53:post reply

quote:
I’d like to elevate the discussion by reminding everyone that the original Japanese for Soul Calibur’s “Evil Seed” was “Evil Sperm.”



It still is.
Surprisingly, they didn't change it for this reboot.
So basically the storyline says Siegfried matched perfectly with the cursed Soul Edge, and he ejac... spread evil sperm all over the world when they became one.


After finally playing Soul Calibur 6 over the weekend and getting the online trophies, I'm not really sure how to judge the game aside from "it's fun". Most of the players I've matched up with were clearly experienced fighting game players up to a certain degree, albeit not Soul Calibur players. Of the 50+ matches, I've faced only two clearly non-fighting game "button mashing" players, which I guess is a sign that, at least in Japan, the game was mainly picked up by fighting game players eager for a new experience.

Many of the players were making the common mistakes of a 2D fighting game player, such as dashing by tapping forward twice or hitting back on block (not that you want to really block too often to begin with in this game). Very few were taking advantage of the 3D field depth, so I'd assume they weren't Tekken players. Each of the system and tools in the game are clear cut on when they're supposed to be used; for example, throws in most 2D fighting games come in handy when you can't punish opponent's moves that have fast recovery, but in SC6 it's really just for breaking down blocking opponents because it comes out too slow (like half a second) and can even be avoided with Reversal Edge. Backdash seems utterly useless aside from dodging kicks (is it actually useful in dodging horizontal slashes?), which is probably a message from the game's battle planner that players should fight agressively.

From a 2D fighting game player's perspective, the gameplay is vastly different and a tad hard to grasp since it seems to be about going into constant rocks-papers-scissors based on risk vs reward. That of course exists in 2D fighters as well, but the fundamental strategy in 2D fighters is about avoiding that situation as much as possible rather than to dive into it. It explains why the general damage output in SC6 is quite low and doesn't allow high-damage combos off a weak attack even when there's meter. It's a different experience, and makes it all the more fun.

What's been making the learning for SC6 a bit hard is that apparently the fundamentals have been changed from previous games, so using older game tutorials as a guide has its limits. For example as mentioned, backdash has been apparently nerfed in SC6, whereas the normal run speed has been increased so you don't really need to keep sidestepping or do wave dashes. There's also no quickstepping by tapping up or down twice. Apparently a volume of old moves forces the player to go into a standing blockstring on the second attack (can't dodge low), which is probably a way to make the game more beginner friendly. Reversal edge is also a new addition very obviously, which seems like a good comeback mechanic but not a move you'd want to use when you're at an advantage since you force yourself to go into a rocks-papers-scissors game that can potentially end up putting you into a lethal hit state if you initially go into a clash. Reversal Edge builds up a lot of meter though, so using it at certain timings will clearly benefit the player's match progress.

Meter management certainly seems to be key in this game, although I'm still not sure if it's better to use them for Critical Edge or Soul Charge. For the time being most people are using it for Critical Edge, but once people figure out the combos for Soul Charge, things may change.


In terms of graphics, I didn't realize until checking out some screenshots, but wow the textures are quite low-res during gameplay--they're fine during the cinematics like the winpose, but otherwise as Maese mentioned, it feels like a PS3 game. Comparing the game to DOA5:LR feels almost unfair. This may be to compensate stable framerate, especially considering how much the screen rotates due to the game mechanics. But that's all fine, because there's character creation and you need to fight Pokemon wannabes amongst other monstrosities.





[this message was edited by Professor on Mon 22 Oct 15:14]

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"Re(6):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Mon 22 Oct 16:37post reply

quote:
I wish the extraordinary creativity humankind has for creating phallic imagery could be applied towards things like world peace and climate change

<Lizardon joke goes here>



So how was that scaley mammilian penis on a lizard man made in the character editor? What part did they repurpose for that? As clearly lizardman still has his tail and I don't know why big fleshy balls and shaft would be options





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"Re(9):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Mon 22 Oct 22:07post reply

quote:
I’d like to elevate the discussion by reminding everyone that the original Japanese for Soul Calibur’s “Evil Seed” was “Evil Sperm.”


It still is.
Surprisingly, they didn't change it for this reboot.
So basically the storyline says Siegfried matched perfectly with the cursed Soul Edge, and he ejac... spread evil sperm all over the world when they became one.


After finally playing Soul Calibur 6 over the weekend and getting the online trophies, I'm not really sure how to judge the game aside from "it's fun". Most of the players I've matched up with were clearly experienced fighting game players up to a certain degree, albeit not Soul Calibur players. Of the 50+ matches, I've faced only two clearly non-fighting game "button mashing" players, which I guess is a sign that, at least in Japan, the game was mainly picked up by fighting game players eager for a new experience.

Many of the players were making the common mistakes of a 2D fighting game player, such as dashing by tapping forward twice or hitting back on block (not that you want to really block too often to begin with in this game). Very few were taking advantage of the 3D field depth, so I'd assume they weren't Tekken players. Each of the system and tools in the game are clear cut on when they're supposed to be used; for example, throws in most 2D fighting games come in handy when you can't punish opponent's moves that have fast recovery, but in SC6 it's really just for breaking down bloc

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


Hhhmmm my pre-order copy hasn't arrived yet. These online shops sucks. Took over a week to get my megaman 11 also. Well in any case in Twitter I have seen countless of different custom characters from the likes of Pokémon, KOF, SF, etc. Seems like people are having fun with it. Costumes looks good and funny.





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"Re(7):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Tue 23 Oct 00:39:post reply

quote:
So how was that scaley mammilian penis on a lizard man made in the character editor? What part did they repurpose for that? As clearly lizardman still has his tail and I don't know why big fleshy balls and shaft would be options


Whoever created it used accesory parts. Accessory parts in the game gives the user a lot of freedom when it comes to positioning-- aside from being able to change their x,y,z axis and rotate their angles, you can attribute them to parts of the body, like for example the hip, so that they move in alignment.

My guess is that the lizardman's sacks in that video is probably an upside down heart that's been colored in green and given one of the scaley textures, while the stick is either a gun holster or a cylinder, and its tip is a warped turtle shell. Quite an imaginitive use of parts.





[this message was edited by Professor on Tue 23 Oct 02:11]



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"Re(8):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Tue 23 Oct 02:47post reply

What a thing to reverse engineer! So far I've been feeling like a genius for managing to position a sticker correctly in the character creator while others are creating crazy customizations. I need to get more creative.







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"Re(9):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Wed 24 Oct 05:19post reply

A friend got Soul Calibur 6 and we tried it out for about four hours last night by trying to play it as if it were Soul Calibur 2. It is...worse than 1 or 2, but better than 3, 4, or 5, which I guess still makes it the best Soul Calibur in 15 years! Stuff I noticed:

Lows and trips: It feels like there are more viable lows and trips than 3 onwards, but still not very many at all compared to the glory years, especially from 8-way run. We play pretty different characters (Siegfried/Nightmare for me and Talim/Ivy for him), so I don't think it's my imagination! My friend said it's like they very consciously decided that trips and wake-up games were not going to be big, so they excised them after 2. If it was because these rock-paper-scissor choices were (incorrectly) deemed to be "not very fun," it's pretty weird to add an explicit version of that game with Reversal Edge!

Guard Impact and grabs: It seems lame not to have differentiated high/low guard impacts, but then again, I heard that they mostly disappeared from later games, so maybe this is still progress (back to 2003). Having only one grab button combination isn't much fun since there used to be a strategic zoning choice for some characters based which grab threw the person near or far. Am I missing something?

Exploding clothing: I love it, even if my poor Siegried kept experiencing the shame of losing his pants in addition to possession by an evil sword. For some reason, Seung Mina and Mitsurugi seem to get the worst of it, but fortunately they have the best taste in underwear anyway.

Stages: These are prety enough but it doesn't seem like there are very many of them to start.

Super Combos Critical Edge: These suck and are too long. If I wanted meter management I'd play a Street Fighter game. But I guess they've been there for a while now? I guess I can still use the same energy for Soul Charge, which I'm glad to see here and which I heard had also been missing for several games maybe?

Character creation: I like to imagine that there's a whole B-team in the Soul Calibur department that was mostly poached from Princess Maker 2 or something, and that the main game designers are perplexed that these guys keep getting to come back to make new games with them. Needless to say, this mode is a riot and I love it even if I'll never use it.

Who is that man?
: No, really, who is this old man who suddenly appears on screen to get hit during training mode when I want to see a demonstration of an attack, instead of the actual 2P character I chose? I selected Sophitia for a reason, you know.

Questions: We dove straight into versus to see if this could play remotely as fun as 2, but I guess there's a lot of other stuff. Where do I get more stages and 2P costumes and colors? Which of the two boring-sounding story modes do I have to do?





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"Re(10):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Wed 24 Oct 19:08post reply

quote:
A friend got Soul Calibur 6 and we tried it out for about four hours last night by trying to play it as if it were Soul Calibur 2.


I guess it's a good thing that I've completely forgotten how to play Soul Calibur.

I'll have to pick it up, the character editor sounds like a lot of fun too.







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"Re(10):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Wed 24 Oct 19:10post reply

quote:
Where do I get more stages and 2P costumes and colors?
Nowhere, that is the biggest problem along with missing characters.

However, what you need to do is in the story mode (not the libra of soul, which is a very good single player mode with your preferred choice of cute lizardman or burly granite statue).
Go Groh's story, which is as uninteresting as the character, after which you will unlock Azwel's story.
Then, you do Azwel's story.
Then, you thank me.







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"24K gold" , posted Thu 25 Oct 03:02post reply

Thanks for the update on the sales of SC6 Professor. I wonder if Namco is happy with the reception SC6 has received? It was released at a horribly crowded time of year but SC6 probably only cost a fraction of the crunch-time budget of RDR2.

The amount of free money that Ultra Street Fighter 2 brought in will never not make me laugh.





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"Re(1):24K gold" , posted Thu 25 Oct 03:15:post reply

quote:
Thanks for the update on the sales of SC6 Professor. I wonder if Namco is happy with the reception SC6 has received? It was released at a horribly crowded time of year but SC6 probably only cost a fraction of the crunch-time budget of RDR2.

The amount of free money that Ultra Street Fighter 2 brought in will never not make me laugh.



I updated the article after its initial post and added in some other launch stats-- never noticed until now that Dissidia NT sold so well. It's cheaper than MvCi in the used market here.

It'll be interesting to see how well the SF Anniversary Collection will sell, which just came out today. It's like the SF brand name sells things just by itself.





[this message was edited by Professor on Thu 25 Oct 03:33]

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"Re(2):24K gold" , posted Thu 25 Oct 16:39post reply

Collector's editions of FF Dissidia also came with cards from the FFtcg, I know folks in Thailand who ordered it just for that







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"Re(2):Re(10):A tale of dongs, eternally retol" , posted Thu 25 Oct 22:50post reply

quote:
Where do I get more stages and 2P costumes and colors? Nowhere, that is the biggest problem along with missing characters.

However, what you need to do is in the story mode (not the libra of soul, which is a very good single player mode with your preferred choice of cute lizardman or burly granite statue).
Go Groh's story, which is as uninteresting as the character, after which you will unlock Azwel's story.
Then, you do Azwel's story.
Then, you thank me.



I had not realized that Rasputin from World Heroes had hopped on a boogieboard and surfed straight into SC6. Now I'm going to have to work on learning Azwel since he's a goof.


It's a small thing, but I like that Azwel was strolling around 16th century Europe with what appears to be a monkey skull tied to his belt. It was the fashion at the time.







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"Re(3):Re(10):A tale of dongs, eternally retol" , posted Fri 26 Oct 11:50:post reply

I've been having fun with SC6. Movement feels fluid and fast, haven't seen too much of the characteristic tracking or hitbox BS that usually plagues these games. I like the new soul charge, which reminds me of Max mode in KoFXIV where it gives you access to more comboable moves. On the whole the game doesn't feel broken to me yet, although it's still in competitive infancy so it's easy to get away with just about anything. The movelists have been redone to the point where everyone has to be relearned even if you've played SC a lot. In some cases it even becomes a detriment, having to unlearn certain reactions that were already built up, but I'd be lying if I said that was unexpected. Reversal edge is probably the only thing I find dumb about it; the concept of a forced janken minigame with elaborate animations reminds me of Mortal Kombat vs DCU. At least it's easy to step and avoid dealing with it most of the time.

Among the new characters, Azwel is WONDERFUL. Really annoying to fight, but a great character in any voice, possibly the best new SC character in decades. I don't care much for Geralt although I do like making him do his whirly "DOH-DOH" sidestep over and over so he looks as dorky as possible. Groh is a chuunibyo. He's like Patrokolos but more sad than annoying.

The story mode is okay, not as fancy as Tekken 7 but far more comprehensive with no neglected characters. Libra of Souls is good fun. I made a yandere angel with Raph's moveset and the voice syncs up too perfectly. Haven't finished it yet but I've sunk a pretty good number of hours into it. I'd call it the best single player mode in any SC if not for the slippery stages WHICH I HATE and are probably far more entertaining to watch than they are to participate in.

quote:
Having only one grab button combination isn't much fun since there used to be a strategic zoning choice for some characters based which grab threw the person near or far. Am I missing something?

Everyone still has their 2 throws, it's just that now you perform the other throw with back+A+G. It's pretty awkward to get used to.





[this message was edited by Gojira on Fri 26 Oct 11:59]



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"Re(4):Re(10):A tale of dongs, eternally retol" , posted Sat 27 Oct 02:37post reply

I'm glad to see that Maou and Gojira -two people who have spent a bit of time playing and thinking about SC- are fairly positive in their thoughts on SC6. Hopefully Konami continues to support the game -and gets those insane character edits out of ranked mode- since it feels like SC6 has a good foundation.







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"Re(5):Re(10):A tale of dongs, eternally retol" , posted Sat 27 Oct 23:59:post reply

Speaking of dongs... Unsurprised but happy.





[this message was edited by Iggy on Sun 28 Oct 00:04]



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"Re(10):A tale of dongs, eternally retold" , posted Sun 28 Oct 07:36post reply

quote:
Speaking of dongs... Unsurprised but happy.

GLORY TO MANKIND! And as anyone knows who's accidentally (???) hit 2B's self-destruct button, Soul Calibur 6's exploding clothes option is a perfect and internally consistent match.





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"Re(2):Re(10):A tale of dongs, eternally retol" , posted Sun 28 Oct 22:36post reply

Sometimes Namco can make good decisions regarding guest characters (the first two guests in Tekken 7) and other times they can be utterly stupid (the second two guests in Tekken 7.) Thankfully it looks like saner heads are prevailing with Soul Calibur 6.

Poor SNK Heroines, it looks as if SC6 has dethroned it as the waifu dress-up game of the generation.





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"Re(3):Re(10):A tale of dongs, eternally retol" , posted Mon 29 Oct 12:57post reply

quote:
Sometimes Namco can make good decisions regarding guest characters (the first two guests in Tekken 7) and other times they can be utterly stupid (the second two guests in Tekken 7.) Thankfully it looks like saner heads are prevailing with Soul Calibur 6.

Poor SNK Heroines, it looks as if SC6 has dethroned it as the waifu dress-up game of the generation.



There's been some fantastic Gundam creations, here's a Zaku II: https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1424371-soulcalibur-vi-custom-characters

Saw a Sinaju too. It's like the Medieval/Sengoku Gundam fighting game now





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"Re(4):Re(10):A tale of dongs, eternally retol" , posted Tue 30 Oct 02:47post reply

quote:

There's been some fantastic Gundam creations, here's a Zaku II: https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1424371-soulcalibur-vi-custom-characters

Saw a Sinaju too. It's like the Medieval/Sengoku Gundam fighting game now



Here is a not full frontal screenshot of the Sinanju!
Really beautiful





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"The assassin, the fighter and the món" , posted Fri 2 Nov 03:57post reply

In news for other fighting games, DOA6 got Christie (who looks surprisingly classy)...

...and Smash Bros. Ultimate's final default (read: non-DLC) characters are Ken and a Pokémon. Seriously.

I'll miss Dixie Kong, but oh well. Isabelle looks nice enough to replace her.





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"Re(1):The assassin, the fighter and the món" , posted Fri 2 Nov 05:56post reply

quote:
...and Smash Bros. Ultimate's final default (read: non-DLC) characters are Ken and a Pokémon.

Like with Capcom's treatment of Rockman for the better part of this last decade, at some point, the non-inclusion of poor Waluigi starts to look less like an unfortunate oversight and more like a cruel joke.

...but where is Bowsette????





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"Re(2):The assassin, the fighter and the món" , posted Fri 2 Nov 09:20post reply

For her debut trailer Christie certainly took it on the chin a lot. I do, however, like that new stage.

While I’m not one for Smash I am excited about the debut of the piranha plant. Between this and Battle Circuit this is turning out to be a good year for fighting plants.







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"Re(3):The assassin, the fighter and the món" , posted Fri 2 Nov 11:16:post reply

quote:
Between this and Battle Circuit this is turning out to be a good year for fighting plants.
Hahahaha. In case he gets alternate/subs in Smash, we'd better have a poll to help:


Poll


edit: yes I did misspell "piranha" two times in a row but it is too late now





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 2 Nov 13:30]

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"Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest" , posted Tue 6 Nov 02:41:post reply

By a raise of hands, who's interested in an MMCafe lagfest for SC6 this weekend? Call it a belated Halloween-- come and show your costumes!

[edit: this will be for PS4]

[Tentative schedule]
Date: Saturday, November 10 17
Time: 8:00am EST / 1:00pm London / 9:00pm JST

(I'll be available for 2 hours /~11pmJST)


Note: if you're still trying to get enough points to unlock some of the costumes, try playing arcade mode with Nightmare in hard mode and just keep doing Forward + Horizontal slash x 2. If you have a stick, you can keep it on auto rapid and check the game every 20 mins or so.





[this message was edited by Professor on Thu 8 Nov 14:49]

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"Re(1):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest" , posted Tue 6 Nov 08:14post reply

quote:
By a raise of hands, who's interested in an MMCafe lagfest for SC6 this weekend? Call it a belated Halloween-- come and show your costumes!

Date: Saturday, November 10
Time: 8:00am EST / 1:00pm London / 9:00pm JST

(I'll be available for 2 hours /~11pmJST)


Note: if you're still trying to get enough points to unlock some of the costumes, try playing arcade mode with Nightmare in hard mode and just keep doing Forward + Horizontal slash x 2. If you have a stick, you can keep it on auto rapid and check the game every 20 mins or so.



I will try to get on. Put me down as a maybe.





Long Live I AM!


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"Re(2):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest" , posted Tue 6 Nov 10:20post reply

Yikes, this weekend might be tough but I will do my best to put in an appearance. I also need to play SC6 some more to learn the characters and make more outfits.





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"Re(3):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest" , posted Tue 6 Nov 13:15post reply

quote:
Yikes, this weekend might be tough but I will do my best to put in an appearance. I also need to play SC6 some more to learn the characters and make more outfits.



The more the merrier so I can certainly postpone to next weekend!







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"Re(4):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest" , posted Tue 6 Nov 19:06post reply

As much as I'd like to play SC6, the combination of time and platform probably is not in my favor. I might get the PC version eventually but right now I'm PS4 only.





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"Re(5):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest" , posted Tue 6 Nov 23:27post reply

quote:
As much as I'd like to play SC6, the combination of time and platform probably is not in my favor. I might get the PC version eventually but right now I'm PS4 only.



Ah forgot to note-- this will be for PS4!







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"Re(4):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest" , posted Thu 8 Nov 01:27post reply

quote:
The more the merrier so I can certainly postpone to next weekend!



I can't guarantee anything but I'll do my best to show up for a bit. Honestly though, a good rule of thumb is that nobody should wait for me to get my act together or they will be waiting for a very long time.





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"Re(5):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest" , posted Thu 8 Nov 14:51post reply

Ok so it's been changed to Nov 17(Sat), 8:00am EST / 1:00pm London / 9:00pm JST. I'll be around for 2 hours so whoever's feeling up to joining, just let me know!







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"Re(6):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest" , posted Thu 8 Nov 19:46post reply

quote:
As much as I'd like to play SC6, the combination of time and platform probably is not in my favor. I might get the PC version eventually but right now I'm PS4 only.


Ah forgot to note-- this will be for PS4!



Ah, okay. I thought more of us had the PC version.

Regardless though, that's 5AM here, so it's kind of difficult





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"Re(7):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest" , posted Sat 17 Nov 12:54:post reply

For anyone who's still interested, I'll be around today Nov 17(Sat) at 8:00am EST / 1:00pm London / 9:00pm JST. Feel free to come on or message me PSN!





[this message was edited by Professor on Sat 17 Nov 21:00]

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"Back from the (not) dead" , posted Sun 18 Nov 22:55:post reply

DOA6 got a new trailer showing three more fighters: Kokoro, La Mariposa and newcomer NiCO.

The new girl fights Pencak Silat, which is a nice choice. Plus, now we know Lisa is alive and well, after DOA5's Story Mode failed to show if she was able to escape the explosion (though it should be obvious that any character that is a woman is always safe in DOA).

Now, Team Ninja revealed pretty much all the women in this game, so unless Brad, Eliot, Leon and Gen-Fu were removed from the roster, it will be interesting to see DOA6 having a "sausage fest" trailer to show them... well, unless there will still be more newcomer girls to be announced.

---

EDIT: oops, I just realized now that I forgot Momiji and Rachel (while they're guests from Ninja Gaiden, both series exist in the same continuity, so it's very likely that they will return for DOA6). And if the four original gals included in DOA Xtreme 3 follow Lisa's example (debuting as beach volleyball players and then becoming proper fighters), the next reveal trailers may be anything BUT a sausage fest.

(there's also Naotora, but I don't see her becoming a proper DOA mainstay)





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[this message was edited by Just a Person on Thu 22 Nov 20:57]



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"Re(1):Back from the (not) dead" , posted Tue 20 Nov 00:35post reply

It's good to see the girls are all back but I'm not really feeling NiCO. Is she a cousin twice removed of KOS-MOS? Is she going to record an album with the Velvet Underground? All that's certain is that instead of endless Kasumi variants we are now going to get characters built out of Marie Rose.
quote:

For anyone who's still interested, I'll be around today Nov 17(Sat) at 8:00am EST / 1:00pm London / 9:00pm JST. Feel free to come on or message me PSN!

It's a shame more people weren't able to attend but thanks to all the guest characters we were able to play it ended up being a lot of fun!





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"Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest Vol.1 Report" , posted Sun 25 Nov 02:43:post reply

Good games to Ishmael and Gojira whom I had the fortune to play during the lagfest time!

Soul Calibur VI is a truely awesome game. With a pinch of imagination and some heavy case of blurry vision weeknight liqor, the costume edits make cameo appearances in Smash Bros feel like just another Tuesday at a rental costume Print Club floor.

So here they are, some randomly cherrypicked screenshots from the Cosplay lagfest we had last time. It was like watching cheap knockoff products destroy each other, an experience far beyond that of an official genuine collaboration. In particular I'm very fond of the Jagi vs Mudman match where Ishmael ultimately headslammed my Mudman to the ground and utteriy pulverized his mask to render him stock-material plebian .

Match 1
Die Monster !
You don't belong in this world! (both of you)
It was not by my hands that I was once again given flesh, it was by [snipped, text too long]

Match 2
Ultra SF4 vs Last Bronx (I think?)
Like butter, but with less calories

Match 3
A shoutout to Sofitia's bonus costume in Soul Calibur 2. /
Yes it's Kai from the Famicom era.

Match 4
Weather fighter vs Muscle Power killer
It's no death match mode, but it certainly has costume breaks

Match 5
Soul Calibur 3's unlockable char vs KOF
King would've looked more convincing if it weren't for those heels

Match 6
Martial Champion vs Yoshimitsu

Match 7 - More screenshots of Jagi vs Mudma
Decide the Destiny
Say my name
Maddo Catta
Jagi about to groundslam Mudman by his face





[this message was edited by Professor on Sun 25 Nov 03:15]



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"Re(1):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest Vol.1 Report" , posted Sun 25 Nov 08:42post reply

Great screenshots! Who needs Jump Force, we have SC6!

The character creation system really drives home how much of the personality of the characters is hardwired into their movement. For example, thanks to his borrowing of Ivy's style my Belmondo was working it during his matches. It also makes it so that any attempt to make a Lizardman with Sophitia's moves creates a lizard with surprisingly delicate emotions.

Since these fights went down I've created several new characters. I'm not certain this is the "right" way to play SC6 but I'm amused.







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"Re(2):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest Vol.1 Report" , posted Sun 25 Nov 08:53post reply

Holy mackerel! Ishmael wasn’t kidding about getting seriously into character creator. You guys are magnificent. MMC brings the true spirit of Princess Maker 2 to the modern age. Whyyyyy isn’t there cross-play??
quote:
a Lizardman with Sophitia's moves creates a lizard with surprisingly delicate emotions
Actually, this is in the finest tradition of Soul Calibur 1’s customizable opening sequence. Correct choice is always: Astraoth in every scene, including the one where Sophitia daintily braces herself against the wind.





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"Re(1):Soul Cosplayer VI Lagfest Vol.1 Report" , posted Sun 25 Nov 22:30post reply

quote:
Good games to Ishmael and Gojira whom I had the fortune to play during the lagfest time!

Soul Calibur VI is a truely awesome game. With a pinch of imagination and some heavy case of blurry vision weeknight liqor, the costume edits make cameo appearances in Smash Bros feel like just another Tuesday at a rental costume Print Club floor.

So here they are, some randomly cherrypicked screenshots from the Cosplay lagfest we had last time. It was like watching cheap knockoff products destroy each other, an experience far beyond that of an official genuine collaboration. In particular I'm very fond of the Jagi vs Mudman match where Ishmael ultimately headslammed my Mudman to the ground and utteriy pulverized his mask to render him stock-material plebian .

Match 1
Die Monster !
You don't belong in this world! (both of you)
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Match 2
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Like butter, but with less calories

Match 3
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"Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Mon 26 Nov 06:36post reply

Seems like a good price for some reference material. I never really got to play the game much at all back when it was new, and I was curious to see how they would avoid the trap of literally every Tekken character just being some version of Dudley in terms of SF feel.





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"Re(1):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Mon 26 Nov 11:23post reply

quote:
Seems like a good price for some reference material. I never really got to play the game much at all back when it was new, and I was curious to see how they would avoid the trap of literally every Tekken character just being some version of Dudley in terms of SF feel.



Thanks! I too have been curious. Just not $50 curious!





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"Re(1):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Tue 27 Nov 02:11post reply

quote:
Seems like a good price for some reference material. I never really got to play the game much at all back when it was new, and I was curious to see how they would avoid the trap of literally every Tekken character just being some version of Dudley in terms of SF feel.



Some questions-

- Does includes all the characters?
- Is still using GFWL or they removed it?

Those 2 are deal breakers, even if the game is at 6 dollars







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"Re(2):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Tue 27 Nov 03:13post reply

quote:
Seems like a good price for some reference material. I never really got to play the game much at all back when it was new, and I was curious to see how they would avoid the trap of literally every Tekken character just being some version of Dudley in terms of SF feel.


Some questions-

- Does includes all the characters?
- Is still using GFWL or they removed it?

Those 2 are deal breakers, even if the game is at 6 dollars

I believe it has all the characters (and even maybe the costumes?)
No idea for GFWL, unfortunately. Maybe the Steam page says in the EULA?

It's not a game to play online anyway. But I bought it too to mess with the characters in training mode once again, and imagine them in a non-ugly game with non-stupid mechanics.





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"Re(3):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Tue 27 Nov 04:37post reply

quote:
Seems like a good price for some reference material. I never really got to play the game much at all back when it was new, and I was curious to see how they would avoid the trap of literally every Tekken character just being some version of Dudley in terms of SF feel.


Some questions-

- Does includes all the characters?
- Is still using GFWL or they removed it?

Those 2 are deal breakers, even if the game is at 6 dollars
I believe it has all the characters (and even maybe the costumes?)
No idea for GFWL, unfortunately. Maybe the Steam page says in the EULA?

It's not a game to play online anyway. But I bought it too to mess with the characters in training mode once again, and imagine them in a non-ugly game with non-stupid mechanics.



Isn't so much to play it online, but rather, to make the game run, since GFWL is no longer supported some games have issues starting, plus some performance issues related to that DRM, at least there is a lot of negative reviews of the game related to that.







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"Re(4):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Tue 27 Nov 06:36post reply

quote:
Isn't so much to play it online, but rather, to make the game run, since GFWL is no longer supported some games have issues starting, plus some performance issues related to that DRM, at least there is a lot of negative reviews of the game related to that.



I haven't tried running it for years, but I recall you have to do a workaround of sorts just to get the game to install, downloading and running a different GFWL set-up file from the XboxLive web site. I had to do that the last time I installed it.

Though there is a post on the Steam forums that says you really only need two of the DLL files in the same directory.

This issue has existed for many years. As with some other PC games, Capcom knows about the problem and just doesn't care. Doesn't stop them from putting it on sale several times every year though.







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"Re(5):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Tue 27 Nov 07:16:post reply

So, yeah: can confirm GFWL is still there. There's two packages: "SFxT" which doesn't have the 12 characters, and "SFxT Complete Pack" with the 12 characters, all the costumes and all the DLC Gems (Remember those?). It also has the special color palettes that, I assume, are those who ruined online even more by having neon-colored abominations running everywhere. So, yeah, the full package!

Buying separately just SFxT and the 12 characters without all the cosmetic stuff is for some reason more expensive than the complete package.

I had forgotten the costumes were crossovers, with Jinpachi Dhalsim, Rolento Nina, Poison Lili, Sodom Heihachi, R. Mika Kuma... Most of them look atrocious, but in a dumb, fun way that the Marvel vs series never dared to approach.





[this message was edited by Iggy on Tue 27 Nov 07:19]



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"Re(6):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Tue 27 Nov 16:10:post reply

SFxT thoughts:

The SF4 artstye still makes a lot of characters look really goofy, but the Tekken characters have been transferred to that style quite effectively. They look like themselves, while looking also like they are SF characters. Kuma got a radical new face, Law looks way dumber than normal, Jin looks like he asked for makeover to turn himself into Ryu, etc. It's quite an admirable effort.

A lot of iconic Tekken moves got adapted in funny ways. For instance, one of Bryan's most infamous moves, his Orbital Heel, merely became his j.HK. The Relax stance of the Tekken capoeira fighters simply became their crouch. Steve got ported into the game in radical fashion, having his left and right sways for his LK and MK buttons, and the forward roll as HK.

Though there is a universal combo chain with light->medium->heavy->heavy (with the second press of heavy tagging in your partner), all of the Tekken characters have tons of unique chain combos in order to reference many of their unique attack strings from Tekken without making all of them special moves.

A LOT of the Tekken characters have a special move that is some sort of movement with an optional button press. This is part of the "I wonder how they won't make everybody Dudley" thing along with the chain combos I was wondering about, but it doesn't come off too badly. Rather than making everybody Dudley, maybe they just made everybody Maki.

In fact, the way the Tekken characters feel, it almost feels like they belong in a KOF game, not a Street Fighter game. KOF's shortjump feels like it would complement their movesets very well.

It's an interesting novelty, but I don't see myself playing the game much.

I don't think it's a terrible game at all, and it's apparent that a fair amount of effort went into making it. I think a hilarious irony of it is that it'd probably appeal to people who are tired of SFV's endless high damage would find SFxT's relatively low damage refreshing! Single normal hits deal almost no damage unless you proceed to do a chain combo, chain combos from light attacks don't lead to a lot of damage, and you really need to score a jump-in and have the opponent in the corner by the time the tag happens to really get substantial damage. But even then, that combo damage is like... 30%? 40%? And then the opponent can tag out, so in some sense it's like having only done 15% or 20%! Well, it is true that if the combo kills the opponent, the round outright ends, but still!

The game is weirdly fast, though, and I know part of that perception comes from having played a lot of Tekken recently.





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"Re(7):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Wed 28 Nov 00:09post reply

What SFxT mostly did was confirm for me was that I'd rather see TxSF. Capcom did an okay job of adapting the Tekken characters to 2D, but the conversion felt a bit too fence-straddling. They weren't "Tekken" enough, but they also didn't feel uniquely "Street Fighter" enough. They just blurred together in a lump.

It just feels like Street Fighter characters would convert better to Tekken. The addition of Akuma (and later Geese) to Tekken 7 only further confirmed that belief.

It didn't help that I wasn't entirely keen on SFxT even when playing the SF characters. I know Capcom likes to treat crossover/versus games as their own things, but that sometimes overrides the characters themselves. I also cannot help but feel the Tekken characters might have seen more interesting conversions if they were brought into a "regular" Street Fighter game (perhaps as a few guest characters) than in a crossover.

quote:

I think a hilarious irony of it is that it'd probably appeal to people who are tired of SFV's endless high damage would find SFxT's relatively low damage refreshing!



People complain about V-Trigger comebacks, yes. And "random" comebacks in general.

But a lot of the complaints seem to come down to people wanting even higher damage potential in SFV, not lower. They just want it behind "harder" combos, and they want it for the characters they support and not necessarily for the characters they hate. People argue for the return of throw loops. A not insignificant number are hoping that the rumors of a custom combo-like system being added are true. People complain that you have to take too many risks to win, and want the risk instead shifted onto the person who got hit.







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"Re(6):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Wed 28 Nov 05:10post reply

SFxT is more interesting than a lot of simply mediocre games because it did so many things wrong. It doesn't make it good, mind you, but it's interesting. There may be some way to view the gem system as something that wouldn't turn into a pay-to-win system and not be more complicated than it was worth but I can't see it. If the gems had been unbalanced the game could have been dumb fun in a Marvel way but it felt like the fear of making the gems too important caused them to be underpowered. That also seems to have been the fate of the Pandora system (remember that?) which was nerfed into pointlessness. This fear of high damage made SFxT the gentle hitting game that Spoon described. I remember hearing that some professional players enjoyed the initial version of SFxT because it encouraged conservative play and they could attack with endless block strings and win on time outs due to chip damage. It was safe, cautious and boring as hell. Small wonder SFxT never found an audience when playing the game was the equivalent of paying your bills on time and eating properly.

quote:

I had forgotten the costumes were crossovers, with Jinpachi Dhalsim, Rolento Nina, Poison Lili, Sodom Heihachi, R. Mika Kuma... Most of them look atrocious, but in a dumb, fun way that the Marvel vs series never dared to approach.


I somehow blanked out those horrific costumes. Wait, Dudley was in the game? Wow, I don't remember anything about SFxT.







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"Re(7):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Wed 28 Nov 05:34post reply

quote:
There may be some way to view the gem system as something that wouldn't turn into a pay-to-win system and not be more complicated than it was worth but I can't see it. If the gems had been unbalanced the game could have been dumb fun in a Marvel way but it felt like the fear of making the gems too important caused them to be underpowered.


I remember Capcom trying to claim that the gems weren't pay-to-win because the paid gems weren't better than the free gems, completely ignoring that as long as the paid gems weren't horribly worse, just letting people buy more options was itself a pay-to-win situation.

That, and I want to recall that one of the store pre-order gems (later sold in a DLC bundle) was a flat out better version of one of the free gems anyway.

But the gem system was pretty much DOA anyway. Players wanted to boycott them for being pay-to-win, which I believe played a part in tournament organizers saying that they were going to ban gems due to the set-up time gem selection added. If there hadn't been such vocal fan opposition to gems, then I don't believe tournaments would have been so quick to jump in with their own opposition.

I think gems could have worked, if they were truly designed and implemented as an integral part of the game system. Other games have had alternate versions of characters, style or groove selections, and the like. The gem system could have been a generic highly customizable take on the idea. If it was a gameplay-first design... But with paid DLC gems and the sheer number of gems (itself likely to help pad those paid DLC sets), it was pretty obvious that (regardless of original intentions) the gem system was a profit-first design with gameplay being a distant second at best.







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"Re(8):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Wed 28 Nov 06:27post reply

I strongly disagree that Street Fighter characters would convert better to Tekken... for the sole reason I never "got" Tekken. Soulcalibur, Virtua Fighter, I understand, but the flow of Tekken has always been lost on me, and Gouki and Geese feel lost in a sea of characters that all blend together.... except Noctis. Even the characters that have distinct moveset differences like Jack, Zafina or Yoshimitsu don't seem to be doing much different with their moves.
However,
quote:
It didn't help that I wasn't entirely keen on SFxT even when playing the SF characters. I know Capcom likes to treat crossover/versus games as their own things, but that sometimes overrides the characters themselves. I also cannot help but feel the Tekken characters might have seen more interesting conversions if they were brought into a "regular" Street Fighter game (perhaps as a few guest characters) than in a crossover.

This is potentially the biggest problem of the game.
The game would have been fine if the Tekken characters had just been added to SF4, maybe with a couple of system changes, and we could have spent time exploring them. Instead, the game itself was so terrible that not only did it homogenize at the gameplay level one of the more diverse cast of fighting game characters in term of moveset, it made everything so bland the Capcom characters themselves felt outside of their element, off, and drab.
It was even worse than CvS1, which, while strangely weighty and stiff, was still reasonably close to a normal SF2/Zero feeling, and CvS2 just pushed the game a bit closer to Zero and away from being its own thing. But SFxT is so buried so far up its own butt I'm not sure an hypothetical SFxT2 would have been able to fix it.

SFxT doesn't feel like SF4 at all. It's surprisingly difficult to imagine how the Tekken characters would play if they had been in SF4, since everything feels so different.
I can't even pick what was the worst part. Every single piece of the system was a terribly bad idea. They even had an autocombo system that was supposed to be more welcoming to newcomers by punishing them for using it (or any player making the mistake of pushing WP twice). Who thought of that? Who played this game before the public beta?
quote:

I believe played a part in tournament organizers saying that they were going to ban gems due to the set-up time gem selection added. If there hadn't been such vocal fan opposition to gems, then I don't believe tournaments would have been so quick to jump in with their own opposition.
Ooooh, I forgot that.
The UI to pick or change your gem was so bad that regardless of their usefulness or strategic interest, I was already too tired to consider looking into them, and ended up using the default option for every character.
When you screw up the very act of choosing a character in a fighting game at the UI level, you should know you've goofed.

Conclusion: I want these movesets in a better game. Jack's is done already. More!







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"Re(8):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Wed 28 Nov 06:43post reply

Ironically, FEXL has what is effectively a gems system and they have really quite dramatic effects compared to SFxT! The FEXL "gems" are a lot more interesting than the SFxT ones, with ideas behind gems that don't come online until much later in the match along with ones that can come online very quickly or even right away, or ones that incentivize particular styles of play.

quote:
It just feels like Street Fighter characters would convert better to Tekken. The addition of Akuma (and later Geese) to Tekken 7 only further confirmed that belief.


Honestly, the quality of the implementation of Geese and Akuma I would more attribute to the skill of the team behind them, rather than what the characters are like intrinsically. Their visual direction of Akuma and Geese are fantastic, and the ideas behind how to make the characters play in Tekken systems and feel like Tekken characters while still feeling like 2D characters are quite inspired. None of those qualities are things inherent to those characters.

I think some Tekken characters could definitely convert into interesting SF characters in a big variety of ways, and I would agree that a number of the Tekken characters in SFxT feels uninspired, some to the point of not even really invoking the qualities of how the characters feel in Tekken. For example Geese's sweep in Tekken does not knock down except on counter-hit, but on counter-hit it not only knocks down but it starts a full combo: the first bit initially feels weird since it makes his sweep feel more like a d.MK, but then you discover that it uniquely fits into a pervasive aspect of Geese which is how strong of a counter-hitting character he is. He has 4 regular attacks which are counter-hit combo starters, 3 of which are just really good moves, in addition to his iconic Geese counters. As a result, Geese can play as a powerful and intimidating wall that makes his opponent afraid to hit back, which just feels very Geese-like right down to his stance!

SF has certainly had its share of characters with a big array of chain combos and move complexity, none moreso than Gen, and while I don't expect every Tekken character in SF to be as complicated as Gen, I think a more extreme way of translating the characters to 2D is necessary. I saw this because even in their own game they all have a big array of evasive moves, counter-hitting moves, attack strings, they all function well at point-blank range, etc. They definitely have distinct identities in Tekken, but from the world of 2D games where movelists are much smaller, trying to distill a unique identity from such seemingly well-rounded characters definitely needs a more extreme approach. In the sense that many KOF characters seem to have a more well-rounded set of moves and KOF characters are often more about playing the KOF system, I think that Tekken characters feel more KOF-ish, but that doesn't mean KOF characters don't have distinct gameplay identities. Clark and Daimon and Ramon and DINOSAUR and Angel are all grapplers, but they all definitely have distinct gameplay identities from one another. Daimon may have strong strikes and counters and command rolls and command grabs and earthquakes and anti-air grabs which makes it seem like he has everything, but he's very clearly "Daimon" and not anybody else.

Like if there's one character I could point to as being a kind of weird implementation in SFxT, it's Bryan. In Tekken, he's a character who is a deadly counter-hitter who is somewhat awkward in maintaining a rushdown but can play deadly guessing games against an opponent who has been knocked down. The way in which he's been realized visually in SFxT is really odd and curious (SUPER long gangly arms, really overtly villainous and someone who delights in being villainous), but more odd is that I don't feel like the aspects of how he plays in Tekken are realized all that well in SFxT. He even has this leaping grab that seems all new, which is cool, but I don't see how it fits with who he is or how he plays in Tekken. His Orbital Heel in SFxT is just another j.HK, where in Tekken it's one of his most infamous counter-hitting moves.

I wouldn't be surprised if the experience in working on Smash, Pokken, and the 2D characters in Tekken has collectively given Namco an astounding amount of expertise in making 2D fighting games and 2D fighting game characters at this point.







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"Re(9):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Wed 28 Nov 07:31post reply

quote:
I saw this because even in their own game they all have a big array of evasive moves, counter-hitting moves, attack strings, they all function well at point-blank range, etc. They definitely have distinct identities in Tekken, but from the world of 2D games where movelists are much smaller, trying to distill a unique identity from such seemingly well-rounded characters definitely needs a more extreme approach.


From the viewpoint of Street Fighter, most of the Tekken roster are relatively similar in design. Everyone is a physical, close-range fighter. There are almost no projectiles, flight, teleports, or other more fantastical elements. That isn't to say that there are none, but there are very few.

While you might think the sheer size of Tekken's move lists would make it easy to pick the limited number of moves needed for a SF-style system, the design of Tekken characters arguably makes this task difficult as well. Which moves are signature enough to be carried over? Which signature moves will actually translate satisfactorily to 2D? What general styles even "define" the character, when every character can by default do so many things? How much is instead just a generic element of "Tekken"? Some characters stand out for certain styles, but many are a bit more nebulous.

From the viewpoint of Tekken, the limited movesets of Street Fighter characters just gives you plenty of room to fill in and do whatever you want. You might not have three different strengths for every special, but you can have the core identity of each special, every throw, every command normal, and still have another 50+ moves you can add.

Tekken can accept characters that use stuff like super meters or even EX specials. The Rage system pretty much offers the Tekken side its own supers, so even supers translate fairly easily these days. Tekken might not be built around projectiles, but the series has dabbled in the idea of long range attacks since at least Tekken 2, and later dabbled in non-instant ranged attacks. The end result is a system that can work with something that looks like SF-style fireballs without breaking either the fireballs or the game.


Is it impossible to translate Tekken to 2D? Of course not. Is the success of the translation of Akuma and Geese in no small part to the care and effort put into translating those individual characters? Of course. But neither of those details change that I believe it is in general easier to bring a Street Fighter character into 3D than it is to bring a Tekken character into 2D.





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"Re(7):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Thu 29 Nov 03:17post reply

quote:
SFxT is more interesting than a lot of simply mediocre games because it did so many things wrong. It doesn't make it good, mind you, but it's interesting. There may be some way to view the gem system as something that wouldn't turn into a pay-to-win system and not be more complicated than it was worth but I can't see it. If the gems had been unbalanced the game could have been dumb fun in a Marvel way but it felt like the fear of making the gems too important caused them to be underpowered. That also seems to have been the fate of the Pandora system (remember that?) which was nerfed into pointlessness. This fear of high damage made SFxT the gentle hitting game that Spoon described. I remember hearing that some professional players enjoyed the initial version of SFxT because it encouraged conservative play and they could attack with endless block strings and win on time outs due to chip damage. It was safe, cautious and boring as hell. Small wonder SFxT never found an audience when playing the game was the equivalent of paying your bills on time and eating properly.


Can we count US-box cover MegaMan as one of these things done wrong? While I usually enjoy Ono's sense of humor, if you're gonna tease MegaMan and Pac-Man in a game, you should really add the actual MegaMan and Pac-Man, not a creepy dude doing a poor MM cosplay and Pac-Man riding a Mokujin-mecha.

quote:
I somehow blanked out those horrific costumes. Wait, Dudley was in the game? Wow, I don't remember anything about SFxT.


Understandable, as he was one of the DLC characters even though his files were already in-disc (supposedly unfinished and thus the reason for DLC, but still...).





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"Re(8):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Thu 29 Nov 03:44post reply

quote:
SFxT is more interesting than a lot of simply mediocre games because it did so many things wrong.



I'm still waiting for Tekken X Street Fighter.





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"Re(8):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Thu 29 Nov 03:59:post reply

SFxT and SvC:Chaos should be re-released together as a collection of crossovers with questionable content.

quote:
Is it impossible to translate Tekken to 2D? Of course not. Is the success of the translation of Akuma and Geese in no small part to the care and effort put into translating those individual characters? Of course. But neither of those details change that I believe it is in general easier to bring a Street Fighter character into 3D than it is to bring a Tekken character into 2D.

But how would Dhalsim or -heaven help us- Menat handle in Tekken? When I picture the problems that would arise from trying to cram the SF cast into Tekken I think of how Ryu handles in Marvel or Smash games; his signature attacks are there so you know it's him but the way those specials behave and everything else about him has been changed to fit the non-SF engine.

EDIT: In unrelated news, watching Waldstein/Tager and Hakumen/Akihiko run wild in the ArcRevo World Tour made me wish I knew how to play BBTag.





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"Re(8):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Thu 29 Nov 09:16:post reply

quote:
Can we count US-box cover MegaMan as one of these things done wrong? While I usually enjoy Ono's sense of humor, if you're gonna tease MegaMan and Pac-Man in a game, you should really add the actual MegaMan and Pac-Man, not a creepy dude doing a poor MM cosplay and Pac-Man riding a Mokujin-mecha.


Don't forget that Mega Man and Pac-Man were PS3 permanent exclusives, because Capcom sold their presence to Sony as a platform exclusive.

Even though Mega Man and Pac-Man were found to be on the 360 disc, along with the other DLC characters.

Capcom also cut the ability to mix local and online players in a match from the Xbox 360 version, even though they advertised the game as having it and included it in the game's manual. When people complained, Capcom claimed that Xbox Live didn't allow it. When people then pointed out that a number of Xbox 360 games already did exactly that, Capcom then said that they had to cut the mode from the 360 due to time and resource issues.

quote:
But how would Dhalsim or -heaven help us- Menat handle in Tekken? When I picture the problems that would arise from trying to cram the SF cast into Tekken I think of how Ryu handles in Marvel or Smash games; his signature attacks are there so you know it's him but the way those specials behave and everything else about him has been changed to fit the non-SF engine.


Dhalsim honestly shouldn't be a problem. While they may not be the focus of Tekken as a series, it does have projectiles, teleports, limited flight, and even dive kicks. That leaves Dhalsim's extending limbs as the item without an existing Tekken counterpart.

However, you must consider how Dhalsim's limbs function. They give him exceptional range, but they also similarly increase his vulnerable area. A fast projectile could do the same thing as Dhalsim's limbs, without the added vulnerability. Dhalsim fits in SF2 because most of the roster has no projectiles, and the projectiles that are present travel slower than Dhalsim's strikes.

(Quick side note: I feel this became a matter in Dhalsim's later appearance even by Capcom. More characters came along with projectiles, some characters received faster projectiles, and some characters received longer range physical strikes. All of this ate into Dhalsim's niche, and I honestly think Dhalsim has somewhat floundered because of it.)

Tekken might not be projectile heavy, but Tekken players have dealt with full screen fast projectiles since Tekken 2. Tekken 2 had Devil/Angel's rage inducing laser beams. Tekken 3 had True Ogre's fire breath, which was even designed to hit those who sidestepped. While those were bosses, the games had them, players learned to deal with them, and future titles would also visit the concepts.

Sure, Dhalsim can punch across the screen. He can also get his fists punched or grabbed, potentially leading to eating an ugly combo. Meanwhile, Kazumi can more safely get a similar effect summoning tigers. On the off chance that Dhalsim still turned out to be too strong, you could slow his strikes a bit, or put more of a telegraph at the start, without "breaking" the character.

Though the Tekken 7 character that for some reason makes me think the most of Dhalsim is probably Alisa. Alisa has fast dive kicks, has a form that extends her "punch" range by adding saw blades to her arms, has a few moves where she fires her fists as rocket punches, and uses her head like a more limited version of Menat's orb.

Menat is a trickier matter, as her orb acts more like a controlled permanent projectile, extending her range without making her more vulnerable. A balancing factor is, as always, Tekken sidesteps. A side step not only takes you out of the path of the orb, it also takes you out of the return path. It might actually be interesting to see how that would develop in matches though, as the Menat player could also sidestep to try to get the opponent back between her and the orb, which could lead to some nasty surprises for careless or forgetful players.





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"Re(9):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Thu 29 Nov 14:36:post reply

quote:


But how would Dhalsim or -heaven help us- Menat handle in Tekken? When I picture the problems that would arise from trying to cram the SF cast into Tekken I think of how Ryu handles in Marvel or Smash games; his signature attacks are there so you know it's him but the way those specials behave and everything else about him has been changed to fit the non-SF engine.



Dhalsim honestly shouldn't be a problem. While they may not be the focus of Tekken as a series, it does have projectiles, teleports, limited flight, and even dive kicks. That leaves Dhalsim's extending limbs as the item without an existing Tekken counterpart.

However, you must consider how Dhalsim's limbs function. They give him exceptional range, but they also similarly increase his vulnerable area. A fast projectile could do the same thing as Dhalsim's limbs, without the added vulnerability. Dhalsim fits in SF2 because most of the roster has no projectiles, and the projectiles that are present travel slower than Dhalsim's strikes.

(Quick side note: I feel this became a matter in Dhalsim's later appearance even by Capcom. More characters came along with projectiles, some characters received faster projectiles, and some characters received longer range physical strikes. All of this ate into Dhalsim's niche, and I honestly think Dhalsim has somewhat floundered because of it.)

Tekken might not be projectile heavy, but Tekken players have dealt with full screen fast projectiles since Tekken 2. Tekken 2 had Devil/Angel's rage inducing laser beams. Tekken 3 had True Ogre's fire breath, which was even designed to hit those who sidestepped. While those were bosses, the games had them, players learned to deal with them, and future titles would also visit the concepts.

Sure, Dhalsim can punch across the screen. He can also get his fists punched or grabbed, potentially leading to eating an ugly combo. Meanwhile, Kazumi can more safely get a similar effect summoning tigers. On the off chance that Dhalsim still turned out to be too strong, you could slow his strikes a bit, or put more of a telegraph at the start, without "breaking" the character.

Though the Tekken 7 character that for some reason makes me think the most of Dhalsim is probably Alisa. Alisa has fast dive kicks, has a form that extends her "punch" range by adding saw blades to her arms, has a few moves where she fires her fists as rocket punches, and uses her head like a more limited version of Menat's orb.

Menat is a trickier matter, as her orb acts more like a controlled permanent projectile, extending her range without making her more vulnerable. A balancing factor is, as always, Tekken sidesteps. A side step not only takes you out of the path of the orb, it also takes you out of the return path. It might actually be interesting to see how that would develop in matches though, as the Menat player could also sidestep to try to get the opponent back between her and the orb, which could lead to some nasty surprises for careless or forgetful players.



Don't forget Noctis when it comes to characters fighting at weirdly long ranges!
Noctis also has a slide, a move where he performs a long ranged attack from a jump, long range circular moves, long range horizontal moves, and awkward moves up close!

I think the existence of Noctis in Tekken 7, not to mention both how playable he is while also not completely ruining the game, means Dhalsim is quite possible in Tekken. Not only that, Yoshimitsu and the Ravens provide a guide not only on teleports in Tekken, but on attacks descending from teleports that put the character into the air!

I agree Menat's controllable projectile would be a huge headache in Tekken. One of the things I learned about in my whirlwind introduction to "serious" Tekken in the past year or so is the significance of attacks from the side or the back. In 2D fighting games, there's a "turning around" animation, but in most 2D fighting games it can be interrupted at any time instantly by blocking and cases where this is not true are highly exceptional. In Tekken, it universally takes time for characters to turn around in order to block, which leads to situations where strings which are not combos normally become combos. I think trying to account for this element of Tekken with Menat's controllable orb will be an absolute nightmare, because that is truly unlike anything in Tekken!





[this message was edited by Spoon on Thu 29 Nov 15:20]

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"Re(9):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Thu 29 Nov 23:22post reply

quote:
Don't forget that Mega Man and Pac-Man were PS3 permanent exclusives, because Capcom sold their presence to Sony as a platform exclusive.

Even though Mega Man and Pac-Man were found to be on the 360 disc, along with the other DLC characters.

Capcom also cut the ability to mix local and online players in a match from the Xbox 360 version, even though they advertised the game as having it and included it in the game's manual. When people complained, Capcom claimed that Xbox Live didn't allow it. When people then pointed out that a number of Xbox 360 games already did exactly that, Capcom then said that they had to cut the mode from the 360 due to time and resource issues.


Normally, I'd consider outrageous to have some characters only in one console, especially if their data were already on the disc... but considering how Mega Man and Pac-Man turned out, I guess it wasn't a huge loss to the 360 owners (actually, it wasn't a loss at all).

The lack of ability to mix local and online players, though... yeah, now that's a painful loss.





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"Re(10):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on Steam" , posted Thu 29 Nov 23:37post reply

quote:
Normally, I'd consider outrageous to have some characters only in one console, especially if their data were already on the disc... but considering how Mega Man and Pac-Man turned out, I guess it wasn't a huge loss to the 360 owners (actually, it wasn't a loss at all).
I honestly think Pacman-on-a-Mokujin was a great idea. Not dumber than a kangaroo or Mokujin itself.
Unfortunately, its console-exclusivity meant it was never properly balanced, and remained trash... another rubble on the mountain of wasted potential.

I wonder how much SFxT played in having SF5 Sony-exclusive. Developing not one but 6 characters to be exclusive on one console was probably not cheap and would be even more prohibitive now...







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"Re(2):Re(10):Street Fighter X Tekken is $6 on" , posted Fri 30 Nov 06:31post reply

quote:
I wonder how much SFxT played in having SF5 Sony-exclusive. Developing not one but 6 characters to be exclusive on one console was probably not cheap and would be even more prohibitive now...



From what I recall being said at the time, SFxT did play a part in that decision, but not for those reasons.

Rather, I recall it being said that SFxT's poor reception caused Capcom to second guess the fighting game resurgence, and reduced support for the genre. That presumably opened the door for Sony. Ono has said that without Sony's involvement, Street Fighter 5 would have released years later than it did.







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"Team Spooky documentary" , posted Sat 1 Dec 05:48post reply

I haven't watched it yet, but it should be real good!

Team Spooky is a tournament streaming thing run by the eponymous Spooky, who is absolutely the authority on fighting game streaming in North America on account of being the earliest and still-going streamer of them!







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"Re(1):Team Spooky documentary" , posted Mon 3 Dec 16:17:post reply

quote:
I haven't watched it yet, but it should be real good!

Team Spooky is a tournament streaming thing run by the eponymous Spooky, who is absolutely the authority on fighting game streaming in North America on account of being the earliest and still-going streamer of them!

It's a really well-made documentary. I heard of spooky before but I wasn't familiar with him exactly. After watching it I realized that I kinda have a connection with spooky since over the last year I've been trying to do a lot more with fighting game streams, whether for weekly locals, random netplay, organized weekly exhibitions, or the seasonal tournament that I travel to, and in spooky I found an inspiration.

It's also interesting that the choice of subject for this documentary about fighting games is not a top player or a fighting game developer or commentator or tournament organizer, but a streamer, someone whose whole job is often behind the scenes, to kinda showcase and elevate everyone else that would constitute part of the FGC to the world in a sense.

The other takeaway from this documentary is I guess youtube and streaming has been a thing for so long now that it deems needing of preservation or archiving, or at least inscribing it in some historical way. Time goes by so fast huh.





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"Re(2):Team Spooky documentary" , posted Tue 4 Dec 01:50post reply

That was an interesting documentary, thanks.

It's funny, I've known of Spooky's work for years so it's hard to remember that a service that has a worldwide audience is being run out of one guy's apartment. There can't be much money in fighting games -as the laughably sad earnings on Capcom's Pro Tour page proves- so it's amazing to realize that the scene is being held together by a few individuals who consider it a calling.

In other news, the King of Iron Fists is a panda. Go figure.





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"Re(3):Team Spooky documentary" , posted Wed 5 Dec 03:00post reply

quote:
That was an interesting documentary, thanks.

It's funny, I've known of Spooky's work for years so it's hard to remember that a service that has a worldwide audience is being run out of one guy's apartment. There can't be much money in fighting games -as the laughably sad earnings on Capcom's Pro Tour page proves- so it's amazing to realize that the scene is being held together by a few individuals who consider it a calling.

In other news, the King of Iron Fists is a panda. Go figure.



Speaking of King of Iron Fist, the three remaining Tekken 7 DLC fighters (not counting the Walking Dead dude) are a musclehead, a feline man and... a youtuber?

I wonder what Michelle thinks about her daughter's new job.





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"Re(4):Team Spooky documentary" , posted Wed 5 Dec 03:20post reply

quote:
I wonder what Michelle thinks about her daughter's new job.

I think Julia's just trying to survive in the new economy (she's not a wrestler anymore)+ being an eCeleb streamer might be a good way to raise awareness about deforestation, haha.

Also Panda winning TWT was great. I kinda don't play Tekken really but I think out of all the games that I don't play it's the one I enjoy watching the most, and the TWT finals was a great time.





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"Capcom Power Stone All Stars - random thought" , posted Wed 5 Dec 22:55post reply

Just a random thought but if Capcom decides to do any kind of All Stars game, I think it should be done as a fighting game using the Power Stone engine. Fun, whacky, and fits in quite well. That way we get a new power stone game with more characters from everyone. Knock out Smash Bros. Out the park lol.





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"Re(1):Capcom Power Stone All Stars - random t" , posted Thu 6 Dec 00:54:post reply

quote:
Just a random thought but if Capcom decides to do any kind of All Stars game, I think it should be done as a fighting game using the Power Stone engine. Fun, whacky, and fits in quite well. That way we get a new power stone game with more characters from everyone. Knock out Smash Bros. Out the park lol.



I would love it, but for some reason the Power Stone formula never caught on. The last game to try it was TMNT Mutant Melee which was in 2005. I know people compared that one Marvel game (Imperfects), but that was blah.

quote:
That was an interesting documentary, thanks.

It's funny, I've known of Spooky's work for years so it's hard to remember that a service that has a worldwide audience is being run out of one guy's apartment. There can't be much money in fighting games -as the laughably sad earnings on Capcom's Pro Tour page proves- so it's amazing to realize that the scene is being held together by a few individuals who consider it a calling.

In other news, the King of Iron Fists is a panda. Go figure.


Speaking of King of Iron Fist, the three remaining Tekken 7 DLC fighters (not counting the Walking Dead dude) are a musclehead, a feline man and... a youtuber?

I wonder what Michelle thinks about her daughter's new job.



Speaking of Tekken 7 DLC. Negan does not look good. People have already compared him to Jason from MKX and I was thinking "stiff Netherealm animations" when I saw him too. I hope he improves though.





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"Re(2):Capcom Power Stone All Stars - random t" , posted Thu 6 Dec 03:40post reply

quote:
Speaking of Tekken 7 DLC. Negan does not look good. People have already compared him to Jason from MKX and I was thinking "stiff Netherealm animations" when I saw him too. I hope he improves though.

Negan really did look poor and, once again, came across like his inclusion was due to corporate meddling. Even his trailer felt like a clunker. The first two trailers for the new characters were exciting and full of energy. Then the third trailer featured a guy with a stick somehow cowing a cast of characters who routinely turn into Go Nagai monsters and take turns tossing each other off mountains.







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"Re(3):Capcom Power Stone All Stars - random t" , posted Thu 6 Dec 05:09post reply

quote:
Speaking of Tekken 7 DLC. Negan does not look good. People have already compared him to Jason from MKX and I was thinking "stiff Netherealm animations" when I saw him too. I hope he improves though.
Negan really did look poor and, once again, came across like his inclusion was due to corporate meddling. Even his trailer felt like a clunker. The first two trailers for the new characters were exciting and full of energy. Then the third trailer featured a guy with a stick somehow cowing a cast of characters who routinely turn into Go Nagai monsters and take turns tossing each other off mountains.

+ he dissed Bob, how dare he?





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"Re(3):Capcom Power Stone All Stars - random t" , posted Thu 6 Dec 08:17post reply

quote:
Then the third trailer featured a guy with a stick somehow cowing a cast of characters who routinely turn into Go Nagai monsters and take turns tossing each other off mountains.



I honestly expected him to brutally hit Heihachi, and when he turned, Heihachi would just stand up behind him. Or the same with Kazuya or Jin, with them popping up in devil form.

But then I remembered it was a trailer meant to promote Negan, so it wouldn't have such a realistic result. Even so, I had the same feeling through a lot of the move set demonstrations, just waiting for Negan to get countered or beaten.







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"Re(4):Mortal Kombat All Stars - random t" , posted Sat 8 Dec 02:06post reply

There's a new MK coming soon. Very little is known at this point, but my best guesses would be a return of the weapon stance from previous games and the return of a clumsily animated Scorpion. There is mention of something called Custom Character variation system but since it's not called "Kustom Kharacter" I don't believe a word of it.





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"Re(5):Mortal Kombat All Stars - random t" , posted Sat 8 Dec 02:54post reply

quote:
There's a new MK coming soon. Very little is known at this point, but my best guesses would be a return of the weapon stance from previous games and the return of a clumsily animated Scorpion. There is mention of something called Custom Character variation system but since it's not called "Kustom Kharacter" I don't believe a word of it.



Interesting. NRS will have quite a challenge to make this game fresh without adding unnecessary gimmicks. I mean, the Variations system in MKX was okay for one game, but I don't think it should return for this one.

Then again, even if this game sucks, it's Mortal Kombat, so it'll likely be a best-selling game anyway (even the now dreaded titles from the PS2 era were big in sales, despite the lukewarm reviews).

(...why "11", though? Are they still counting MKvsDC as MK8? Or is Shaolin Monks counted as if it were a numbered game?)





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"Re(6):Mortal Kombat All Stars - random t" , posted Sat 8 Dec 04:02post reply

quote:

(...why "11", though? Are they still counting MKvsDC as MK8? Or is Shaolin Monks counted as if it were a numbered game?)



They already called the previous one "X", roman numeral for 10, so this one it's 11.
But we could say that if they were really coherent this one should have been called XI.





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"Re(7):Mortal Kombat All Stars - random t" , posted Sat 8 Dec 04:22post reply

quote:

They already called the previous one "X", roman numeral for 10, so this one it's 11.
But we could say that if they were really coherent this one should have been called XI.



Yeah, but I thought they used the "X" exactly because it left ambiguous whether the "X" meant "10" or something else (I was going to mention a game that used this trick, but that would indicate a huge spoiler to its plot...).

Anyway, I read a crazy theory online regarding this next MK, with some guy guessing the Variations system will remain - with a twist: the game story would go full "Crisis on Infinite Earths" and rather than just representing gameplay changes for the same character (...should I spell "kharakter" in this case?), each variation would represent their version from a different universe.

Honestly, I don't know if that's a good idea plot-wise, as the story could become very messy (even for MK standards). Gameplay-wise, it could work as a way to bring people that are supposed to be either dead or retired in the current continuity. But then again, when has death or old age ever prevented a MK character from returning?





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"Re(1): You never saw it coming..." , posted Sat 8 Dec 05:47post reply

quote:
Just a random thought but if Capcom decides to do any kind of All Stars game, I think it should be done as a fighting game using the Power Stone engine. Fun, whacky, and fits in quite well. That way we get a new power stone game with more characters from everyone. Knock out Smash Bros. Out the park lol.

I think Smash Bros. would be hard to knock out at is point. Even mechanically speaking, Smash has sort of evolved to the point where there's now an SF3rdStrike parry system. Smash is basically it's own animal and its a shame people still knock on it as being just a mere party game.

So far we have Ryu, Ken, a camping tactic Guile, and an old school Akira from Virtual Fighter. All it just needs is an SNK rep (Ryo, Terry, or freakin' Geese) and we have CvS all over again. Or maybe Jin or Heiachi as a DLC fighters.

Speaking of DLC... Seems like Atlus formally has a rep in the form of a Persona 5 character. Of course it would make more sense if Jack Frost was that rep instead but I guess Persona is just more universally recognized. Now if only this means Etrian Odyssey cameos/music...

Power Stone could probably still be revived, though that really depends how would Capcom feel if Sega did an AGES port of the game.







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"Re(6):Mortal Kombat All Stars - random t" , posted Sat 8 Dec 10:40post reply

quote:
(...why "11", though? Are they still counting MKvsDC as MK8? Or is Shaolin Monks counted as if it were a numbered game?)



Mortal Kombat 8 was cancelled and replaced with MKvsDC, so Netherrealm may legitimately think of it as MK8.

I want to recall that somewhere around that time there was also serious consideration for making Mortal Kombat canon within DC, in that one of the DC Multiverse Earths was going to be the Mortal Kombat Earth. That never officially happened, though.







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"Re(7):Mortal Kombat All Stars - random t" , posted Sat 8 Dec 13:19post reply

I'm wondering if Netherrealm Studios will pick up on the animation mistakes they did with the Injustice games.







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"Re(2): You never saw it coming..." , posted Sun 9 Dec 00:02post reply

quote:
Anyway, I read a crazy theory online regarding this next MK, with some guy guessing the Variations system will remain - with a twist: the game story would go full "Crisis on Infinite Earths" and rather than just representing gameplay changes for the same character (...should I spell "kharakter" in this case?), each variation would represent their version from a different universe.


My unfounded speculation is that it will be some sort of costume system similar to Injustice but with old and alternate versions of the characters. Seeing as how we have already seen what looks like Evil Raiden and several versions of Scorpion -including one with regular eyes- there's some way to have more than one look or type of character. I'm certain this gameplay tweak will be pedantically over explained in the story mode but that's what NRS does.

quote:
I think Smash Bros. would be hard to knock out at is point. Even mechanically speaking, Smash has sort of evolved to the point where there's now an SF3rdStrike parry system. Smash is basically it's own animal and its a shame people still knock on it as being just a mere party game.


I find it amazing how big Smash has become and I'm simply referring to the roster. It's not that other companies don't have similarly deep libraries of characters but Nintendo makes certain everyone gets a chance to shine in Smash... as long as it's not Walugi.





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"Re(3): You never saw it coming..." , posted Sun 9 Dec 11:45post reply

quote:
I find it amazing how big Smash has become and I'm simply referring to the roster. It's not that other companies don't have similarly deep libraries of characters but Nintendo makes certain everyone gets a chance to shine in Smash... as long as it's not Waluigi.



Poor Waluigi... and the fact he's already an Assist Trophy doesn't help his chances to be one of the future DLC fighters, either.


But yeah, it's hard to complain about someone missing in Smash with so many characters available. Sure, there are a couple faces I'd love to see added to the roster, but Rosalina and Luigi are already there, so I'm more than satisfied.





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"Re(3): You never saw it coming..." , posted Sun 9 Dec 20:12post reply

Smash Bros is actually the Shin Megami Tensei game they announced for Switch. Master Hand is Demiurge the creator-deceiver who has trapped the spirits of the fighters in physical forms for his own amusement, with almighty servants like Galim the multi winged angel.







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"Re(4): You never saw it coming..." , posted Sun 9 Dec 21:19post reply

quote:
Smash Bros is actually the Shin Megami Tensei game they announced for Switch. Master Hand is Demiurge the creator-deceiver who has trapped the spirits of the fighters in physical forms for his own amusement, with almighty servants like Galim the multi winged angel.



You're actually not far off

Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
from the plot of World of Light, only in this case Galeem is the Demiurge and the Master Hands are the "arch angels". There's actually a Lucifer-like figure in the form of Dharkon, and eventually you must defeat both it AND Galeem to get the true ending. Essentially you're kill both God and the Devil to set all the world's souls...I mean Spirits, free. And yes, they remain dead/don't get their forms back in this post-apocalyptic scenario.

End of Spoiler



Now Joker's inclusion makes all the more sense. I wonder if Demifiend will show up in some fashion...







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"Re(5): You never saw it coming..." , posted Mon 10 Dec 01:28post reply

quote:
Smash Bros is actually the Shin Megami Tensei game they announced for Switch. Master Hand is Demiurge the creator-deceiver who has trapped the spirits of the fighters in physical forms for his own amusement, with almighty servants like Galim the multi winged angel.

It took a while, but who knew that Xenogears would take the lead in inspiring a series of games based on the core premise of Gnosticism, including a Smash Game, no less!





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"EVO Japan 2019 Lineup Confirmed" , posted Fri 14 Dec 19:50:post reply

EVO 2019 Japan Lineup Confirmed!

・TEKKEN 7
・BLAZBLUE CROSS TAG BATTLE
・SOULCALIBUR VI
・STREET FIGHTER V ARCADE EDITION
・THE KING OF FIGHTERS XIV
・GUILTY GEAR Xrd REV 2





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"Re(1):EVO 2019 Lineup Confirmed" , posted Fri 14 Dec 22:47post reply

quote:
EVO 2019 Lineup Confirmed!

・TEKKEN 7
・BLAZBLUE CROSS TAG BATTLE
・SOULCALIBUR VI
・STREET FIGHTER V ARCADE EDITION
・THE KING OF FIGHTERS XIV
・GUILTY GEAR Xrd REV 2


That's quite a list both for what made it in and what did not. Toei makes Marvel look generous so I'm not surprised that DBFZ was withheld. But no Smash games including the latest one? Didn't the previous Evo Japan have Nintendo games? I don't know what's happening there but it means that KoF14 got called up from the minor leagues to do a bit of pinch hitting so that's exciting. I'm also happy to see SC6 in there since I've been having a lot of fun with that game so I want to see what international play looks like. It will probably be vulgar nonsense with Ivy and Voldo gryrating around the screen but we shall see.







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"Re(2):EVO 2019 Lineup Confirmed" , posted Fri 14 Dec 23:47post reply

quote:
EVO 2019 Lineup Confirmed!

・TEKKEN 7
・BLAZBLUE CROSS TAG BATTLE
・SOULCALIBUR VI
・STREET FIGHTER V ARCADE EDITION
・THE KING OF FIGHTERS XIV
・GUILTY GEAR Xrd REV 2

That's quite a list both for what made it in and what did not. Toei makes Marvel look generous so I'm not surprised that DBFZ was withheld. But no Smash games including the latest one? Didn't the previous Evo Japan have Nintendo games? I don't know what's happening there but it means that KoF14 got called up from the minor leagues to do a bit of pinch hitting so that's exciting. I'm also happy to see SC6 in there since I've been having a lot of fun with that game so I want to see what international play looks like. It will probably be vulgar nonsense with Ivy and Voldo gryrating around the screen but we shall see.

Well just to clarify, it's Evo Japan 2019, not Evo US/Plain Evo 2019. And yes, last year's did have Smash (and ARMS for that matter) but since entry was free and the Nintendo games did not have any significant prizes for winners (if any?), Nintendo allowed them. This year they're trying to improve the payouts so they're gonna have an entry fee to pool the money for prizes, and Nintendo (and Toei) didn't give the ok. I imagine both games will still be there in some capacity as side games.





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"Re(3):EVO 2019 Japan Lineup Confirmed" , posted Sat 15 Dec 02:53post reply

quote:
EVO 2019 Lineup Confirmed!

・TEKKEN 7
・BLAZBLUE CROSS TAG BATTLE
・SOULCALIBUR VI
・STREET FIGHTER V ARCADE EDITION
・THE KING OF FIGHTERS XIV
・GUILTY GEAR Xrd REV 2

That's quite a list both for what made it in and what did not. Toei makes Marvel look generous so I'm not surprised that DBFZ was withheld. But no Smash games including the latest one? Didn't the previous Evo Japan have Nintendo games? I don't know what's happening there but it means that KoF14 got called up from the minor leagues to do a bit of pinch hitting so that's exciting. I'm also happy to see SC6 in there since I've been having a lot of fun with that game so I want to see what international play looks like. It will probably be vulgar nonsense with Ivy and Voldo gryrating around the screen but we shall see.
Well just to clarify, it's Evo Japan 2019, not Evo US/Plain Evo 2019. And yes, last year's did have Smash (and ARMS for that matter) but since entry was free and the Nintendo games did not have any significant prizes for winners (if any?), Nintendo allowed them. This year they're trying to improve the payouts so they're gonna have an entry fee to pool the money for prizes, and Nintendo (and Toei) didn't give the ok. I imagine both games will still be there in some capacity as side games.



Fixed the title. Either I got too excited or too surprised of the exclusion of DBFZ and SSBU in the lineup when I posted this one.





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"Re(3):EVO 2019 Lineup Confirmed" , posted Sat 15 Dec 09:32post reply

quote:

Well just to clarify, it's Evo Japan 2019, not Evo US/Plain Evo 2019. And yes, last year's did have Smash (and ARMS for that matter) but since entry was free and the Nintendo games did not have any significant prizes for winners (if any?), Nintendo allowed them. This year they're trying to improve the payouts so they're gonna have an entry fee to pool the money for prizes, and Nintendo (and Toei) didn't give the ok. I imagine both games will still be there in some capacity as side games.


I hadn't thought about the idea that Evo Japan's attempts to improve the prize pool would make Nintendo nervous. I wonder if it also has something to do with Smash being such a new game? Nintendo may want to control the public appearances of the game for the next several months so the fan tournaments are going to have to wait their turn.







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"Re(4):EVO 2019 Lineup Confirmed" , posted Sat 15 Dec 11:15post reply

quote:

I hadn't thought about the idea that Evo Japan's attempts to improve the prize pool would make Nintendo nervous. I wonder if it also has something to do with Smash being such a new game? Nintendo may want to control the public appearances of the game for the next several months so the fan tournaments are going to have to wait their turn.

I doubt that's the reason. At this point Smash is pretty well known as a competitive game, and like half the run time for Smash Ultimate Nintendo directs was talking about super intricate mechanic and character changes from the previous game, something which only players who plan to play it seriously would care about.





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"Re(5):EVO 2019 Lineup Confirmed" , posted Sat 15 Dec 14:12post reply

quote:

I hadn't thought about the idea that Evo Japan's attempts to improve the prize pool would make Nintendo nervous. I wonder if it also has something to do with Smash being such a new game? Nintendo may want to control the public appearances of the game for the next several months so the fan tournaments are going to have to wait their turn.
I doubt that's the reason. At this point Smash is pretty well known as a competitive game, and like half the run time for Smash Ultimate Nintendo directs was talking about super intricate mechanic and character changes from the previous game, something which only players who plan to play it seriously would care about.

It could also be because they still plan to announce all of the DLC roster. But then again I'm not sure how much DLC characters have had an impact in these sorts of tournaments.





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"Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Sat 15 Dec 23:19post reply

Huge surprise for Granblue Fantasy fans such as myself and Zepy-- the game is coming out as a fighter title next year by Arc System Works. I do wonder what characters they'll pick up since there's too many to pick from, even within the popular ones. Article has been frontpaged. There will certainly be lagfests for this.





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"Re(1):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Sun 16 Dec 00:01post reply

quote:
Huge surprise for Granblue Fantasy fans such as myself and Zepy-- the game is coming out as a fighter title next year by Arc System Works. I do wonder what characters they'll pick up since there's too many to pick from, even within the popular ones. Article has been frontpaged. There will certainly be lagfests for this.



The game looks amazing, and it explains why Cygames suddenly became a huge sponsor of the FGC.

Also, is cool that Arc System Works is to go by dev if you want to make an amazing fighting game with your IP







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"Re(2):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Sun 16 Dec 10:12post reply

quote:
Also, is cool that Arc System Works is to go by dev if you want to make an amazing fighting game with your IP



I honestly doubt that license holders are going to Arc System Works for quality. I figure license holders are interested because of how Arc System Works games look. Guilty Gear Xrd won them a lot of praise for its 2D cel-shaded appearance, which was followed by Dragon Ball. If you want your game to look like anime/manga, you go with ASW.

I actually wonder if ASW's previous reputation for high-skill level fighters hurt them a bit in that area, as license holders didn't necessarily want Guilty Gear/BlazBlue difficulty in their anime fighter. But ASW is also pushing for "easy" games now. DBFZ has complexity, but it also has easily mashable lower-payout combos. Kill la Kill looks pretty basic. Granblue Fantasy is supposed to have one-button flashy moves.

I'm also fairly worried that ASW is stretching itself thin with all these projects, and that the quality of the products will drop. Kill la Kill doesn't actually look particularly good. DBFZ has drawn some criticism for its mechanics and design. We currently have no idea where Granblue Fantasy will go, but if it is lackluster, it could be a bad sign for the future of ASW (and ASW's reputation).







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"Re(3):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Sun 16 Dec 13:20post reply

quote:
I actually wonder if ASW's previous reputation for high-skill level fighters hurt them a bit in that area, as license holders didn't necessarily want Guilty Gear/BlazBlue difficulty in their anime any fighter.

I certainly don't! I'm glad this came up, because this is exactly what I was wondering, whether companies were going for the draw of Arc's very high quality visuals without realizing how inscrutable Guilty Gear was. I was curious about how complex Dragon Ball was, and it sounds like they've hit the balance where they can give animation adaptations the visuals they want but with a more approachable system.





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"Re(4):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Sun 16 Dec 14:23post reply

quote:
I certainly don't! I'm glad this came up, because this is exactly what I was wondering, whether companies were going for the draw of Arc's very high quality visuals without realizing how inscrutable Guilty Gear was. I was curious about how complex Dragon Ball was, and it sounds like they've hit the balance where they can give animation adaptations the visuals they want but with a more approachable system.



Arc has been trying to make “accessible” fighters ever since their Persona game. I think they’ve made some strides, although I feel like they tend to lean heavily on lots of story sequences between pockets of gameplay. I don’t know how DBZ single player story mode was... but I wish they could do high quality stuff like MK or even Tekken.







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"Re(5):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Mon 17 Dec 05:06post reply

quote:
Arc has been trying to make “accessible” fighters ever since their Persona game. I think they’ve made some strides, although I feel like they tend to lean heavily on lots of story sequences between pockets of gameplay. I don’t know how DBZ single player story mode was... but I wish they could do high quality stuff like MK or even Tekken.

I think that Persona was mechanically a very interesting game.
The accessibility was not mere training wheels you were supposed to grow out of once you've reach "acceptable levels of skill", which always comes off as a bit insulting (for example, the autocombo system of MvCI). In Persona, and to a certain extend, the Blazblue crossover, "accessibility" simply meant that you didn't have to spend ages in training mode merely to physically learn how to perform certain moves or complicated cancels. Everything was easy to perform, the burden was not on the physical skills of the players (like the dreaded 1-frame links of SF4), but on their memory, reaction, and reading skills (there was a lot of elements to keep in mind, and good players knew which and when to use them).
They feel like an evolution of MvC3, and what MvCI should have been in terms of accessibility (I dislike DBF with passion, though. I think DBF should have been a mix between Persona and Arcana Hearts, instead of the mess it ended up being)(Arcana Heart's systems and movement are fantastic).

In a way, Persona and Cross-tag are the ArcSys evolution of Capcom's Justice Gakuen, which was already doing the "let's lower the execution level to the lowest bar possible because that's really the least fun part of fighting games" 20 years ago. You still need to know what's punishable and how, you still need to understand how the systems play on each other, you still need to learn characters in order to create interesting combos... It's just that the game is easy to get into. It's natural.
I don't understand how Capcom managed to un-learn the lessons of Justice Gakuen and made the absurdly beginner-unfriendly game that was SFxT. Punishing beginners for using beginner-friendly systems? What could go wrong.





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"Re(6):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Mon 17 Dec 08:13post reply

quote:
In Persona, and to a certain extend, the Blazblue crossover, "accessibility" simply meant that you didn't have to spend ages in training mode merely to physically learn how to perform certain moves or complicated cancels. Everything was easy to perform, the burden was not on the physical skills of the players (like the dreaded 1-frame links of SF4), but on their memory, reaction, and reading skills (there was a lot of elements to keep in mind, and good players knew which and when to use them).
They feel like an evolution of MvC3, and what MvCI should have been in terms of accessibility (I dislike DBF with passion, though. I think DBF should have been a mix between Persona and Arcana Hearts, instead of the mess it ended up being)(Arcana Heart's systems and movement are fantastic).


I agree with the notion that the physical skills are de-emphasized. I still think the core responsibility to teach the player how to play the game is glossed over in Persona. I remember that they simply had super easy modes where you could tap your way through the short gameplay sequences to get to the story bits. I think I misinterpreted the type of accessibility you meant. :)

With fighting game creators trying to nurture e-sports, it's a tricky balance between creating accessibility but allowing for a skill gap. I've heard interviews with high level Street Fighter 5 players that miss SF4 1-f links and some of the high skill execution... they say that playing at high level is not as difficult as before. However Capcom specifically removed those high execution barriers to allow more people to compete. It's tough to please everyone.

quote:

In a way, Persona and Cross-tag are the ArcSys evolution of Capcom's Justice Gakuen, which was already doing the "let's lower the execution level to the lowest bar possible because that's really the least fun part of fighting games" 20 years ago. You still need to know what's punishable and how, you still need to understand how the systems play on each other, you still need to learn characters in order to create interesting combos... It's just that the game is easy to get into. It's natural.
I don't understand how Capcom managed to un-learn the lessons of Justice Gakuen and made the absurdly beginner-unfriendly game that was SFxT. Punishing beginners for using beginner-friendly systems? What could go wrong.


Sorry in advance, this got a little long...

I think the reason for Capcom's shift is the push pull between being a competitive game vs a casual game. Persona is a good example of a game that competitive Japanese players rejected, as far as I know. I only know of casual tournaments. My guess is it's because it's too simple... not enough under the hood? When they did the expansion and added a bunch of new systems it seemed to get a lot more popular. This is all just my impression and I might be wrong, though.

Overall, I believe this is a general "problem" with fighting games when compared to MOBAs or shooters like Overwatch or Fortnite:

To be good at fighting games you need:

- Reflex, timing, motor execution -> Can I execute this 1 frame link?
- Yomi -> Can I read the opponent's move and counter it?
- General Knowledge -> Do I have advantage after I block this move?
- Limited Management -> Do I have enough meter to do this attack?
- Limited Situational Awareness -> Am I close enough to the wall to do this combo?
- Limited Strategy -> What character do I pick?

With a Moba, the reflex/timing is much lower, but the management, situational awareness and strategy components have way more depth. Plus you have the team elements, AI on the battlefield, etc. That's why you can keep the execution pretty simple, but still have a vast skill gap between top players and new players. And you can have characters with crazy execution for people who enjoy that.

So how do you evolve fighting games to be more interesting for the existing audience? To keep it a "pure" fighting game, you only have a few knobs to adjust: motor execution, yomi, knowledge. If you add lots of other things, it begins to resemble something other than the 1v1 fighting experience we all love. And by turning down the motor skill level to attract new players, you turn off existing players that enjoyed being one of the few able to consistently execute those links.

Anyway, it's a hard problem... :)







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"Re(7):Justice Fantasy coming next year" , posted Mon 17 Dec 11:02post reply

Great sub-thread, and welcome back, Ktall!
quote:
I don't understand how Capcom managed to un-learn the lessons of Justice Gakuen
SOUNDS LIKE SOME NAUGHTY DESIGNERS NEED A LITTLE AFTER SCHOOL TUTORING
quote:
So how do you evolve fighting games to be more interesting for the existing audience?
If the random non-fighting game people I encounter who are excited about Soul Calibur 6 are any indication, it's all about dress-up for your characters! Which is another way of saying Justice Gakuen's dating sim, Tobal 2 quest mode, every Namco home release, Not SFV Vanilla, etc.

But since both Tekken and 2D games have come up here, it reminds me of a more serious answer to this question on a technical level: you don't need auto-combos to make fighting games fun for casuals or beginners. Mostly, you just need, well, moves to be come out at all! The terrible secret is that 3D fighters will always be more accessible than 2D fighters because even if you suck in Tekken or Soul Calibur, you can still have fun hitting an arrow key and an attack button and get a special move to come out. In contrast, Street Fighter when you can't throw hadoukens isn't much fun for the teacher OR the student.

...2D fighters might be kind of like racquet sports, which are extremely un-fun at beginner level when you can't get the ball over the net. Tekken is the soccer of fighting games.





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"Re(7):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Mon 17 Dec 11:16:post reply

Welcome back KTallguy! Hope things have been good for you.

Just a note, Persona often gets cited as an easy to play game, which is true on the surface, but the game was pretty complex and its original installment was well accepted by competitive players. It might've not been picked up too much by the more well-known stream channels/tournaments in Japan, but that's because players featured at them were usually just Street Fighter players and couldn't play other titles well. I recall how low-level the KOF tournament play at Godsgarden were back then.


Persona in particular was a very lesson-reminding experience for myself. I recall playing the game on release at an arcade, and while having beginner friendly mechanics like combos that come out with just button mashing is a nice idea, it obviously means that experienced fighting game players can also use them. It's not really a way to close down the level gap. It was especially so for Persona since the button mashing combos were actually good as starters to branch out to more damaging combos, and even if not doing so, just mashing off the combo from start to finish had its merits because it generally would push the opponent near the corner and also reward considerable meter.

However, this method of making games easier to play for beginners was probably done right by Arc System Works. It's not about closing the player level gap, but allowing beginners to enjoy the more awesome things in a fighting game with someone of their same level.





[this message was edited by Professor on Mon 17 Dec 11:52]



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"Re(7):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Mon 17 Dec 11:53post reply

quote:
grinding execution and accessibility


It's definitely a tough challenge, and one which 1v1 fighting games definitely have a lot to struggle with because of the nature of the game. Even in a game which seems seems as simple as soccer-with-rigidbody-physics (e.g. Rocket League), it's a game which can ask an enormous amount of yomi, manual execution, and team coordination.

Smash Bros. has done a good job of this overall by having a bunch of things which can be exploited for skillful play and a bunch of things which make life easier for less fluent players. For instance, special moves are very easy to perform in Smash so that aspect of execution is eliminated as a barrier, but the special being easy to do doesn't mean that combos are easy to do, or that the special is easy to hit the opponent with, or that the special move is safe from counter-attack. On top of that, the game has a flexible set of systems which skillful players that do have a high level of manual skill can make use of for substantial advantages: the whole sequence of short hop fast fall laser is just rapidly using small jump, fast fall, and the B button in sequence! There's no obtuse "link timing" or invocation of unintuitive cancelling mechanics, glitches, etc. There is definitely such a thing as successful and unsuccessful execution of this technique though, and not being able to make use of this technique is definitely a competitive disadvantage if you are at a certain level of competition (which I am DEFINITELY not at!).

Smash characters also have a very small moveset compared to the average fighting game, though the ability to combine those attacks with the high amount of movement control the game offers compared to other fighting games makes it feel like you can do a lot with the characters, nevermind their interaction with different terrain!

Tekken has some of these key things, but swings in the opposite direction in others. In Tekken, having great handspeed and execution gives you increased movement capability (you can literally move backwards or forwards faster, for instance!), even if you are using the poor man's backdash-sidestep-backdash. Many moves are done simply by holding a direction and slamming out the button sequence... but some moves demand an incredibly strict input, and an enormous number of moves can only be done as part of some fixed string, many of which cannot be intuitively discovered. For many characters, combo execution is quite lenient in terms of timing... but understanding the combo states is profoundly unintuitive.

I think Smash did a thing that was very daring for a 2D fighting game that has "ground" (i.e. not one of the flying around ones) in choosing to not have an idea of moves that can only be blocked "high" or "low". There's only "did the move contact the shield bubble, y/n". The high/low game is the source of a tremendous amount of the intricacy of many fighting games 2D and 3D, but Smash decided not to have it, and being free of that gave them a lot more freedom in terms of stage design as well as easing one of the player burdens. Having block not tied to a "towards" or "away" direction was also vital to making the game not be a mess when there are more than 2 players. You can see how Guilty Gear Isuka tried to grapple with this problem by having a "turn around" button, but it was ultimately very cumbersome.







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"Re(8):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Mon 17 Dec 13:14:post reply

quote:
Smash Bros. has done a good job of this overall by having a bunch of things which can be exploited for skillful play and a bunch of things which make life easier for less fluent players.


I'd say that Smash is helped greatly by its party mode mentality.

Yes, competitive 1v1 stock-based no-items Smash is a massive thing, but the main mode of Smash is still "party brawler". Anyone can play around with friends. Differences in skill levels smooth out a bit when you have three or more players, and people can gang up on the leader. Items bring a level of chaos. Etc.

And there are so many other things to do in Smash. Home run challenge, adventure, all-star, stage editor, sub-space emissary, etc.

Basically, regardless of your skill level, there is plenty you can do in Smash without ever feeling frustrated. That's a big difference from other fighting games, which tend to rely entirely on straight 1v1 matches and maybe standards like arcade or survival. When you are a beginner in the average fighter, there just isn't as much to do to have fun. Even if you are a middling player, you can find the average fighter either offers boredom or crushing defeat.

It also helps if these extra modes stay attached to the gameplay. Home-run challenge in Smash taught people to workshop combos in general, as well as to try to figure out what tricks will accumulate maximum damage. Stuff like Sub-Space Emissary still had you playing with your regular Smash moveset. This is something I feel DreamFactory got wrong with Ehrgeiz, when they made Quest mode divorced from the regular fighting engine. This is also where Tekken fails with modes like Tekken Bowling.

If people can continue to find entertainment, then they'll keep playing. If that continued entertainment also helps them improve, then they'll improve. If people feel overwhelmed by complicated systems, or just getting trashed constantly online, or getting trashed by garbage AI in solo modes, and that is all they have, then many will just quit.





[this message was edited by Baines on Mon 17 Dec 13:16]

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"Re(9):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Mon 17 Dec 23:05post reply

quote:
If the random non-fighting game people I encounter who are excited about Soul Calibur 6 are any indication, it's all about dress-up for your characters! Which is another way of saying Justice Gakuen's dating sim, Tobal 2 quest mode, every Namco home release, Not SFV Vanilla, etc.


It's a non-serious answer but at the same time, player expression is hugely important, and often overlooked. It turns the narrative from the game's story to my story, even if my story is about my Bryan dressed like Freddy Kruger.

quote:
Welcome back KTallguy! Hope things have been good for you.


Thanks Professor! I'm back in Tokyo on a permanent basis, so we should get lunch :)

quote:
However, this method of making games easier to play for beginners was probably done right by Arc System Works. It's not about closing the player level gap, but allowing beginners to enjoy the more awesome things in a fighting game with someone of their same level.


I agree with this, really it's about making cool shit happen on screen to keep the player engaged. I do agree with Maou that, in general, 3D fighters let you see cool shit with little input. Persona and other recent Arc fighters also have that hit a button over and over to see cool shit. I just wish there was a smoother transition between hit one button repeatedly and all the rest of the more difficult input challenges.

quote:
Spoon's great post


Definitely agree with your assessment of Smash... there are very few special states, and the ones that exist are called out clearly (although I find the bubbles ugly, they are clear). And the lack of high-low-(mid) is also clear.

Tekken has all sorts of unclear states, slam moves, wall hits, etc. Sometimes it's hard to tell if something is mid or high, by design. Regarding input stuff, I wish that they'd bring back the "beginner, medium, advanced" descriptors for characters, although most people like to ignore things like that. But I think if you want a grassroots community, you need a few execution heavy characters to keep players engaged.

quote:
Basically, regardless of your skill level, there is plenty you can do in Smash without ever feeling frustrated...Stuff like Sub-Space Emissary still had you playing with your regular Smash moveset. This is something I feel DreamFactory got wrong with Ehrgeiz, when they made Quest mode divorced from the regular fighting engine. This is also where Tekken fails with modes like Tekken Bowling.


I think you hit the nail on the head, Baines. I enjoy single player Smash content almost as much as playing Multiplayer, and the fact that it's not some separate side game is important. This year's SP content is even more match focused, and feels more connected to the single player experience.

I still think there's some ground to cover in teaching the player basics. How do you make a fun experience revolving around teaching the player to block? Throw? etc. A lot of the new Smash's matches are sight gags or funny combinations, rather than teaching moments. But still very entertaining.







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"Re(10):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Tue 18 Dec 00:14post reply

quote:
A lot of the new Smash's matches are sight gags or funny combinations, rather than teaching moments. But still very entertaining.


As long as it is entertaining, it still has some worth as a one-off event. And you can throw a bunch of such things into a game.

That, for me, is leagues better than fighting game "staples" like Trials and Survival.

I understand the theory behind Trials. In theory they teach players combos. But in reality... Players won't use most of the combos that they encounter in Trials. Worse, half of the Trials combos might get broken if the game received a comprehensive balance patch anyway. As well, the purpose of Trials is for you to mechanically learn the desired single rote solution. You aren't rewarded for problem solving or innovation, it is just dry learning. (Being innovative, finding alternative solutions, actually circumvents the purpose of Trials.) And most trial modes aren't even good at teaching the desired single rote solution, not even bothering to explain just how a person's timing is off.

As for survival... My feeling towards survival modes is perhaps best described as somewhere between hatred and loathing. Survival modes are the go-to mechanic when you can't even be bothered to pretend you care.





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"Re(10):Granblue Fantasy coming next year" , posted Tue 18 Dec 00:53post reply

quote:
Thanks Professor! I'm back in Tokyo on a permanent basis, so we should get lunch :)



Ah that's awesome! I'll hit you soon.



quote:
I still think there's some ground to cover in teaching the player basics. How do you make a fun experience revolving around teaching the player to block? Throw? etc.


This is a good question, because these kind of fundamentals aren't something which even experienced players nessesarily enjoy when learning a new title-- ergo, a lot of them stick to whatever series they feel most confortable with, or play other titles that translate well to the experiences they have at hand. For them, fighting games are like having confort food after a hard day's work.