| Original message (10549 Views )
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
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|  "Re(2):SFV Thread Part 6: PDF Edition" , posted Wed 21 Dec 11:46  
quote:
NINTEY-TWO PAGES long PDF
At first I saw this and thought, "oh, of course, a PDF, how useful," but then I suddenly realized it felt weird and was wondering why: it's because it felt like I was at work. While this may be the strangest thing ever to come out of a gaming company's PR department, I love how they are allowing people to twink out with pencil-and-paper RPG-level character stats.
quote:
Third Strike in a SFV thread
Spoon why are you trying to hurt me 
quote:
イギーの挑戦状/unstoppable strengthening of Urien
Urien's evil new reign has begun. Speaking of which, I am pleased to confirm that you can indeed set music for any mode to be the stage music (correct), your character theme (why would you?), your opponent's character theme (don't be an idiot), or random (eh). You can't just mix and match any given theme to any stage, but I'm hopeful that this still frees me from having to sacrifice my firstborn to Iggy as an act of penance had I been wrong, per our...unusual contract.
quote:
at least one fifth of your Justice Gakuen world domination scheme may come true...
Young apprentice Mickey, you can be my fellow prophet as we fortell the coming of Hinata. While she's not Sakura, she still accomplishes the goal of "short skirt" and "immensely irritating to Iggy," so I see no problem.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| PSN: gekijmo
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| "Re(4):SFV Thread Part 6: PDF (and web)Edition" , posted Thu 22 Dec 03:02
quote:
Sadly, the tradition of game servers getting fucked up on big updates goes on.
Yep, got a bunch of "cannot retrieve data" stuff yesterday. And i see a bunch of people are getting the rage quit icon too.
Maybe by season 3 Capcom will have this stuff ironed out and we won't have to have the servers be down the entire day to include new characters.
In other new, there are some new silhouettes on PSN
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0LeRkTVEAALQVj.jpg
One is obviously Helena/Kolin, but the others are not so easily comparable to other SFV story mode characters.
The two on the right are obviously muscular fighters, but aren't quite Azam. Perhaps they will have Azam, but with a different look.
I tried out Akuma a bit by doing his trials, story mode(I don't think his "story" costume is in story mode btw) and easy and normal survival. I have to say I am having some problems doing the whole sequence of canceling an attack into his V-Skill, doing the Kick extension of the V-Skill and then canceling that into demon flip. It seems like that is a great way to deal damage though.
I still cannot get over the design. Clipping of models in general isn't too much of a problem for me. I see it as a thing that just happens in 3D games, but when clipping is part of the characters default stance it kind of gets on my nerves or when it is right in front of you in character select screen. I wish designs kind of worked around it at least. Change character select poses so we don't get stuff like Ken's hair going through his shoulder.
Then we get Akuma's beads are now a strap across his body for no good reason other than to be different.
I wish we got that hooded design that was on CFN a while ago. It was different, but also identifiable as Akuma.
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| | "Re(1):SFV Thread Part 6: Season 2 Edition" , posted Mon 26 Dec 22:12:
I found recently a couple of American players agonizing over Go... I mean, Akuma, and I was surprised to hear them making fun of some of his new animations looking "sooo stupid".
I didn't notice anything during my short time with him, and if there's one thing Capcom artists are amazing at, it's creating great looking personalized animation, so I went back to the game and tried him to understand what these people were talking about.
Then, I saw the issue: it was a cultural one. Since SSF2X, Gouki has slowly transitioned from half-demon looking bad dude to living buddhist statue, and by SF5, the transition is almost complete, to the point a certain amount of his key frames for several normal attacks, not merely his normal stance or super animation, replicate those famous agyô/ungyô poses. So with the correct cultural background, these animations look good, are a natural evolution of the character and express something about him just by their mere presence, which is something the best animations usually do (shameless Vampire plug). However, they looks silly for someone without the cultural keys to understand them.
It's true that SF5's Gouki has gone extremely close to his statue counterpart: the way his wrists bend palm outward in almost all his animations is unnatural for anyone including martial artists, but replicate kongôrikishi's poses to perfection. They even have his animation stilted to the point that he sometimes starts his animation, reaches the exact statue pose, stays there for a couple of frames, and then attack, which emphasizes the point. Unfortunately, an external cultural eye will only see that the animation stuttered, which is quite jarring in a game where everyone has amazingly fluid animation, and even more for the poster boy of season 2 and one of the most popular characters of the franchise.
It made me think about the graphical state of the game in general, and its main issue of animation vs clipping.
I'm starting to think that the animators of the game have probably a tremendous amount of craft in 2D art (after all, you don't work on Street Fighter animation without a long pedigree in this sphere) but lack knowledge, or interest, in the 3D field and how the polygons will express these animation. This could explain one of the biggest mysteries of this game, that the worst amount of clipping is not due to additional costumes, designed without regards for the original animations, or by small case-by-case interaction of special moves, but by the default costume themselves (Birdie's chain, FANG as a whole, and Gouki's mane even though he has been designed several months after the others), and on the select screen, a huge showcase in a 100% controlled situation, reproducible 100% of the time.
There might also be of course outsourcing problems: the issues that Ken has two still bananas hanging from his head, or that Laura's hair seem to have 3 points of articulation at most, are possibly difficult to fix when you're so remote from the people in charge of making the 3D models. But it also makes me think that maybe, some of the animators are old curmudgeons that still want to live in a time when 2D was king and the CPS3 was a worldwide success, and thus disregard on purpose the limitations and needs of 3D models, like they want to say "see? This would never have happened in pixel art!".
Obviously, I do not know if that's the case or who is actually working on the animations, it may just be that the outsourcing have these people working so remotely that they cannot communicate with each other, on top of a tight budget that makes them say "eh, good enough as it is". But the fact the issue keeps happening, and that they even went out of their way to give Gouki's default costume a giant clipping mane (while his default costume looks fine) gives me pause.
[this message was edited by Iggy on Mon 26 Dec 22:17] |
| PSN: zonepharaoh
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| "Re(1):SFV Thread Part 6: Mecha Gouki Edition" , posted Thu 29 Dec 04:27:
quote:
evolve from getting routinely destroyed by scrub Kens to getting routinely destroyed by scrub Goukis
Ah, that didn't take long. I was all set to complain about how perplexing it is that Kobayashi's trailer music for the Gouki stage is replaced by a lame tune with this awful WUB-WUB-WUB dub-step thing in round 2 which only an X-treme Gouki fan could find cool, but...the stage is really great, the rain reminds me of a good Soul Calibur level, and somehow I didn't notice the weak music as much then.
Prof and Ishmael made me laugh with the exfoliating dog donut motif, but Iggy may have redeemed at least his animations, which I think are a true high point for all characters, even for people who don't like the character art.
EDIT: More importantly, we now have Mecha Gouki, laying to rest any questions about who comes out ahead in the PC vs. PS4 choice.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Thu 29 Dec 11:37] |
| | "Re(2):Re:SFV Thread Part 6: Chilly Season 2 E" , posted Fri 10 Feb 07:29:
Ah, so that was the thread Maou was talking about! I was confused... "I did post in the fighting game thread that is not KOFXIV's, didn't I?"
Silly me.
And sad me suddenly understanding how little I ended up caring about that game after all the good I said about it.
I do like Ishmael's observation that, in a series that had 5 prominent characters built upon the same body with a different head, Kolin is the first character to do the opposite and require a second set of heads just for herself.
Hopefully Ken and Alex are next.
Funny how I never liked playing as Rimururu, but between the black ice meerkat in Pokkén and Kolin's double jump I'm excited when I see any of her moves on literally anything else.
EDIT:
PLUS, important reminder about Kolin that got ignored because of the dreadful American trailer: her Japanese VA is none other than Park Romi. Since this is a Capcom thread, she voices the fabulous version of Uesugi Kenshin and the good Giorno.
Be gone, fake russian accent, this is not a Roger Moore James Bond.
[this message was edited by Iggy on Fri 10 Feb 07:38] |
| PSN: zonepharaoh
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| "Season 2 who are these people? edition" , posted Fri 17 Feb 13:55
Every so often, Shoryuken.com still produces columns of interest rather than youtube links, and this one on SFV is of interest. I think we all agree with the bungled single player issues, and season 2 "rebalances" are terrible, but it's still enormous fun for all the flaws, and its biggest selling point is still that even its uneven visual design is fathoms beyond the aesthetic horrors of SFIV.
The column's rumination on players' (limited) good will and how it relates to season 2 characters returns me to what's Capcom's second-most baffling choice after the awful launch decisions: dedicating a whole season to characters nobody knows. It just...cannot possibly make any money. Certainly not for the season pass since people won't buy who they don't know (except for Iggy, who did it as charity for poor Capcom because he is a Paragon of Virtue). But I doubt for individual characters, either. I mean, I guess Kolin is fine, but why on earth would anyone buy a character whose mechanics they'd never previewed before? Are they that confident that the designs alone would grab people? And even if they were, how could it possibly be a better idea to save crowd favorites for later on the grounds that it would keep interest going?
I cannot think of a configuration where it wouldn't be better to rev people up with Gouki-Sakura-Sagat(-SKULLOMANIA) and then still keep some people engaged with season 3 as a result, rather than likely hemmoraging people who may or may not still be around for season 3 even if old favorites reappear. What am I missing? I'm not a business major but I'm fairly certain every decision I could make would be better than what actually happened with SFV.
I still really really really like this game.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| | "Re(1):Season 2 who are these people? edition" , posted Fri 17 Feb 17:40
quote:
Every so often, Shoryuken.com still produces columns of interest rather than youtube links, and this one on SFV is of interest. I think we all agree with the bungled single player issues, and season 2 "rebalances" are terrible, but it's still enormous fun for all the flaws, and its biggest selling point is still that even its uneven visual design is fathoms beyond the aesthetic horrors of SFIV.
The column's rumination on players' (limited) good will and how it relates to season 2 characters returns me to what's Capcom's second-most baffling choice after the awful launch decisions: dedicating a whole season to characters nobody knows. It just...cannot possibly make any money. Certainly not for the season pass since people won't buy who they don't know (except for Iggy, who did it as charity for poor Capcom because he is a Paragon of Virtue). But I doubt for individual characters, either. I mean, I guess Kolin is fine, but why on earth would anyone buy a character whose mechanics they'd never previewed before? Are they that confident that the designs alone would grab people? And even if they were, how could it possibly be a better idea to save crowd favorites for later on the grounds that it would keep interest going?
I cannot think of a configuration where it wouldn't be better to rev people up with Gouki-Sakura-Sagat(-SKULLOMANIA) and then still keep some p
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
I seriously think an approach of alternating oldface/newface characters would be good. You'd get ongoing hype from both people who want to see familiar characters, and from people who want new characters! You could even arrange them in ways to deliberately contrast their styles/character designs! The juxtaposition alone could be a nice palate cleanser!
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| PSN: Gojira_X
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| "Re(4):Season 2 the more things change edition" , posted Sat 18 Feb 05:34
I really find it quite funny that companies have been giving this generation their own little taste of late 90's sequels that dumped the main cast for new characters. A chance for us to relive the days of Tekken 3, SF3, Garou 3, etc. and a chance for all the historical revisionist people that didn't get to experience the absolute shitshow that went down in its entirety. A time before the internet was completely inundated with complaining, yet cries of "who the hell are these characters and where is Sagat" were certainly echoing from deep within the newsgroups.
My experience with this every time it happens has always been that some characters will stick and some will not, but none of them will ever be fully appreciated right from the start. And definitely none of them will be appreciated before they're even revealed, let alone be something people will want to spend money on. So for the short term, Capcom is obviously not making a smart decision. This will get them no immediate traction on season 2.
Years from now, though? Who knows. Wait for it all to die down so that people can take an objective look at the game again instead of throwing up their hands and lamenting that we're stuck with it and chasing the ghosts of classic characters. It's just going to be a while before that's possible, so if that's the plan I'm not sure how Capcom is going to last in the meantime.
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
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| "Re(3):Season 2 who are these people? edition" , posted Sat 18 Feb 12:51:
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fan-favourites Sagat-Sakura-Hakan
fan-favourites Sagat-Sakura-T.Hawk
I just needed to reemphasize something hilarious and important and excellent.
quote:
"who the hell are these characters and where is Sagat"
It's true! In addition to freeing us from SFIV, SFV season 2 also wins the award of merit for helping recreate the nostalgic joy of hating SFIII's characters, here in the present day! Too bad it's not more technically competent and this game's mostly dreary new characters aren't at least drawn by Kinu and Akiman like III's, but it's still more fun than the parry-blocking system.
It's funny how based on the quality of the cultural/martial arts basis for a new SF character that we've talked about before, you can generally tell who will last. Like, no focus group was required to figure out that El Fuerte and Abel and Remy wouldn't last where Laura might (though this does not explain the mystery of Juri's reappearance). quote:
Years from now, though? Who knows. Wait for it all to die down so that people can take an objective look at the game again instead of throwing up their hands and lamenting that we're stuck with it and chasing the ghosts of classic characters.
Gojira's point here really points to the bind Capcom's in. I love playing SFV, but frankly what it has going for it is that it's the most modern entry in a long-running series, but once that newness wears off, there are better Street Fighters (SFII, SSFIIX, Zero 2, Zero 3, and fine, I guess SFIII (I'll eat my vegetables)). Short-term, people will be annoyed without their favorite characters, and long-term, even if SFV gets more cohesive and people come around to the new chararcters, it's too late because among retro Street Fighters, SFV will be destined to lose.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 18 Feb 13:28] |
| | "Re(4):Season 2 who are these people? edition" , posted Sat 18 Feb 18:56
quote:
(though this does not explain the mystery of Juri's reappearance).
I was going to use Juri to answer Gojira's point as well (and that was what I meant when I said throwing away these new characters in season 2 allowed them to carve their own niche).
Honestly, I don't know why C.Viper failed where Juri succeeded and will probably from now on be the recurrent SF4 character (she already appeared in the last two PxZ game, which are made by people with a better understanding of what people actually want to see). I guess when making SF4 Ono's team gambled between Viper and Abel to be the face of their game, and while it failed hilariously and predictably (and Rufus became the face of everything that was wrong with SF4), I don't understand why Juri, an equally "BLAH" character, succeeded. It wasn't her game play, since she's basically a new character in SF5. Maybe it was because she was a very trope-y villain, something Street Fighter desperately lacks? The fact she ends up being paired with Vega in PxZ (even though I'm still not sure whether they work together or want to kill each other) (SF4's scenario was a mess) seems to point in that direction. Or maybe Vega and Juri are SF's Kyo and Iori, the predictable rivals that keep saying they will kill each other when all they need is some smokey make-up sex.
Juri was never going to be a character perfectly tuned with the needs of the players in that particular moment (like Sakura was and that made her a star), but she ended up being the character Street Fighter needed at that point of its history.
quote:
I love playing SFV, but frankly what it has going for it is that it's the most modern entry in a long-running series, but once that newness wears off, there are better Street Fighters (SFII, SSFIIX, Zero 2, Zero 3, and fine, I guess SFIII (I'll eat my vegetables)).
Fortunately (or not?) I'm not on that boat.
Admittedly, I've never been a huge fan of Street Fighter's gameplay as a whole after SF2 (hello Vampire, Samurai Spirits and KOF) so SFV remains a more enjoyable game to play than both Zero2 and Third Strike.
The other issue the 2D games have is that modern displays make them look terrible. I played recently CvS2 on a modern system and it made my eyeballs vomit. So you're faced with the alternative of looking for a CRT or playing the unlovable sasquatch of an abomination that is HDRemix.
They look fine on Vita though, so hopefully the Switch will receive quality port of good fighting games.
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| PSN: IkariLoona
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| "Re(8):Season 2 who are these people? edition" , posted Wed 22 Feb 18:58
quote:
Also, thanks to Iggy for reminding me about the early days of SF4 where Capcom tried to make Abel and C.Viper a thing. I doubt anybody thought Abel was going anywhere but you could tell Capcom had faith in C.Viper's popularity and she ended up being DOA before the game even made it to consoles. Good times!
Abel has IMO a more timeless design compared to Viper's weird mix of everyday clothing, gadgets and outrageous hair - it's kinda sad plot-wide he was attached to a lame villain, although at least that made for an interesting alternate skin in SFxT IIRC.
As for Juri, her design never clicked all that much with me, but gameplay-wise projectiles and dive-kicking moves can go a lot way into making a character feel accessible, regardless of how effective her gameplan might actually be. The whole "wants to kill Bison/Vega but is working for him to bide her time yet lets him install a weird gadget in her eye, which is disturbingly close to the brain, and coming from a guy with mind-control powers" is kind of a mess to try and work with in terms of any narrative that would try and make sense - I guess it's a good thing that, even if I'm yet to see SF5's story mode, they decided to embrace silliness with stuff like "muscle spirit beats sword"...
...!!
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
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| "Kolin vs. Season 2.5" , posted Fri 17 Mar 14:43
An overdue report: after dueling with Iggy's Kolin, I'm convinced that A) she seems fun enough, B) Capcom is still completely insane to think people will pay to download a character they've never played before, least of all one who was a three-frame background sprite in a game that has never sold more than 50,000 copies on any system in Japan, and C) Capcom USA still exercises diabolical, clandestine aesthetic influence on the game's visuals in some very weird places. Yes, I'm talking about Kolin's underwear. The signs that the Americans were calling the visual shots were already out there with Rashid's Skies of Horror motion sickness stage that only the FPS-honed could possibly stomach. But here we now have a game where every character's underwear is black instead of white, an unimaginable aesthetic choice if Capcom Japan were in the lead. Is "bad American boxart" Rockman next?
Meanwhile! The April update for season 2, also mentioned in the general fighting games thread, is one of the stranger posts I've seen. It's basically a non-stop litany of "unfortunately..." with regards to all of the terrible changes in season 2 and subsequent fixes. I look forward to the May update being easily summarized as "went back to season 1" and saving everyone a lot of time.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| | "Re(2):Kolin vs. Season 2.5" , posted Mon 20 Mar 23:18
quote:
But the anti-shoryuken crowd did have a point. It wasn't particularly fair for a select group that includes some otherwise already capable characters to also have meterless reversals. And the cries of outrage were pretty rich, with people calling it a "crippling" change to suddenly be required to face the same challenges that the majority of the roster always had to face.
I'm really a low-level player so my opinion is probably moot, but my characters don't have meterless reversals and they do very well without them, because they have other tools to compensate. My understanding of the issue is that several of the characters whose shoryuken got crippled don't have these other tools, so they had their main option damaged without having anything to compensate. Also the nerf was so bad that not only did it render the move useless as a reversal, it also made it a bad and unreliable antiair, which is a rather big issue for most characters since it makes one of their main super moves pointless.
For Ryu, it seems to have been bad enough to send him to the bottom of the tier list. Cammy, on the other hand, was perfectly fine without that meterless reversal.
For some reason, Capcom's list of characters who will regain partial and selective invincibility (which is anyway much better than a free-for-all invincible button) doesn't include Necalli. It may be an oversight, or maybe Necalli will remain without invincibility (in which case, I hope Cammy will be on the same boat).
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| | "Re(6):Ed leaked" , posted Tue 9 May 00:18:
Jesus Christ, the music is an abomination.
We'll see how it goes. One interesting is that the trigger is Decapre's Ultra. Since she was almost feature complete in story mode, I expected her to show up at some point, but apparently Capcom took notice of the backlash.
The bulge on the cosplay costume is ridiculous.
Wait a second...
Laura, Necalli, Kolin Alt, Gôki, Ken: silly haircut
FANG, Rashid, Kolin, Dhalsim: silly hat
And this guy has both.
I THINK I CRACKED THE CODE GUYS
[this message was edited by Iggy on Tue 9 May 00:27] |
| | "Re(8):Ed leaked" , posted Tue 9 May 06:33
quote:
Wait a second...
Laura, Necalli, Kolin Alt, Gôki, Ken: silly haircut
FANG, Rashid, Kolin, Dhalsim: silly hat
And this guy has both.
I THINK I CRACKED THE CODE GUYS
Here I was going with the blonde/not-blonde line of thinking with the characters. Silly me, I was pulling on the wrong string.
I will say, though, that Capcom managed to legitimately surprise everybody because I'm sure nobody expected Ed to be like this. Especially coming from his story mode appearances, I think most people were expecting some kind of slender psycho power pretty boy, possibly even something like Ash from KOF... as opposed to this largehuge McNormous military punching dude.
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
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| "Re(2):Ed leaked" , posted Tue 9 May 12:17
quote:
Wow, this is one of the lousiest designs I've seen come out of modern Capcom. Yet somehow it wasn't so bad that it came out the other end as kitschy or something. It's just bad bad.
Ed sucks, but to be fair, consider: Blanka, Remy, Necro, Sean, Rufus, Abel. On the other hand, at least these people had more unique names.
quote:
Which makes me wonder how badly they can REALLY do if they tried.
Don't tempt them. Remember Necalli? (Who?)
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| | "Re(3):Ed leaked" , posted Tue 9 May 22:26
quote:
Ed sucks, but to be fair, consider: Blanka, Remy, Necro, Sean, Rufus, Abel.
Hey, Blanka is awesome!
And I think Rufus was meant to suck, kinda like Dan...
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
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| PSN: MickyKusanagi
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| "Ed Fighter" , posted Fri 12 May 03:39:
Prof, if the previous betas's Japanese timeframe is anything to go by -I managed to take part into the last pre-release one-, the client will hit the JP store at noon JST. I'm kinda curious to get my hands on this toy :D
But I wonder, will the heavy emphasis on CFN social features enjoy any success in a bot-filled online environment? I'm Ultra Bronze and get matched with bots in "perfect blocking" mode most of the time, with some LK spamming bots and rare real humans actually controlling their characters on the side, don't know whether things are different for Gold and above players.
EDIT: the beta is up in the JP store indeed.
EDIT 2: WHAT THE FUCK?? Training mode is greyed out in this beta. I know Capcom only cares about superchampions when it comes to SFV and players of that kind don't need to practice a new character's techniques against a punching ball before actually facing other people, but this is too much.
EDIT 3: as infuriating this beta can be for a low level player like me, I find Ed fun to use. I imagined him as an Ansatsuken/Psycho Power hybrid before his reveal, but Capcom went for a more original fighting style, which is better than my dull concept. Love how misleading the title of this client is: not Street Fighter V (NEW CFN BETA) but ED FIGHTER.
Ore no...kachi da!!
[this message was edited by Micky Kusanagi on Sat 13 May 18:01] |
| PSN: zonepharaoh
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| "Re(7):Eh Fighter with wall" , posted Sat 27 May 11:36
SHARPEN YOUR FANGS, IT'S NOT THE END
Yes, season 2 kind of sucks, and yes, Prof's perspective in the other thread on why some people have dropped the game was more devastating than 90% of all purposefully anti-SFV editorials out there, but but but: on May 30, we finally get a redone CFN interface so you can track all your MMC Lagfest comrades more easily, a version 2.5 patch that will hopefully undo the 100 page PDF of mistakes that comprised season 2.0, and now...Claw's stage?! A level that works to infuriating adventage but only for the vanishingly small number of Balrog players? Can't say I understand how this one got priority, but at least I'll be able to break boxes in Guile's stage now, and the sailboats are added to Kanzuki Beach. Or maybe they already are. I haven't played in a month, but I will, now! Come join!
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| PSN: MickyKusanagi
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| "Re(7):Ed Fighter" , posted Sat 3 Jun 05:50
Your criticism on Ed is completely understandable, right down to his weird size -I had already noticed it when playing him in the new CFN beta Ed VS Ed mode xD-, but in all honesty I find him even more fun than before after trying him out again in his trials. Very satisfied with this bizarre experiment.
On a personal note, I'm sorry to go full-on beggar, but I got tired enough of certain SFV missions that I need to ask for help.
I specifically need help when these kinds of mission show up:
-get X Critical Art KOs
-get X EX move KOs
-win 10 lounge matches
I'd be really grateful to you guys if any of you set up a 2 people lounge with me when such missions pop up, in order to boost these targets. We'd get a KO/victory each in turns, and of course my buddy would get the first win because I'm the one asking for help and don't wanna be selfish. As for getting in touch to arrange the lounges, I think Twitter DMs would be the best option, my username is MickyKusanagi. I live in Italy and my timezone is CEST (CET with DST) right now, my favorite time window is from 2PM to 6PM.
Right now there's a CPT pass-only challenge asking you to score 50 CA KOs, and you can complete it any time before July 1st. If any of you bought the pass and felt like boosting the target with me, I'd be thankful. Sorry to bother you ^^;
Ore no...kachi da!!
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| PSN: gekijmo
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| "Re(2):So uh.... Abigail is..." , posted Mon 17 Jul 14:53
I like the animations, but damn that is the UGLIEST Street Fighter character ever.
Street Fighter is no stranger to weird characters that don't fit the general "martial artist" motif most characters fall under, but at least their proportions were reasonable for the art style the games were in.
Blanka was a green monster, but fit in. Necro's arms were disproportionately long, but that was about it. Rufus was obese, but not too comical for the style of the game.
But Abigail is just a whole other level. I appreciate that he isn't just Hugo (or more technically an Andore), but damn. The legs are okay, but that upper body and head need to be reworked to just flow better with the legs.
His proportions aren't too dissimilar to Potemkin from Guilty Gear or Gigas from Tekken, but it just doesn't fit in Street Fighter.
In better news, the EVO grand finals between Tokido and Punk were great. I was rooting for Itabashi Zangief, but knew he would get destroyed if he made it back to finals.
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
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| "Re(5):So uh.... Abigail is..." , posted Tue 18 Jul 09:45
quote:
...skipping leg days more often than not.
So true.quote:
When Necalli hoists up Abigail in his win pose will the camera only be able to show a hunk of Abigail's massive collarbone?
Who? Oh yeah, that guy. As the two worst-designed characters in the game, they are made for each other. It's always interesting how easy it is to tell which new characters are one-offs that will get instantly trashed for the next game (adios Rufus, all of 3S, Ingrid, season 2 cast).
quote:
Anyway looking forward to Zekuu. At this rate we might see him just before 2018 gets going.
I hope so, if only because he might be a replacement for a friend's favorite, Guy, which in turn has led him to play fruitlessly as Ibuki in the meantime, who at least at our human level of play, is putting up Dan-level resistance to my (thoroughly ordinary) Chun.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| | "Re(7):So uh.... Abigail is..." , posted Wed 19 Jul 02:10
quote:
Though remember R.Mika once fitted in this category, and came back with a vengeance 20 years later.
True, a fair amount of "one-offs" that were "instantly trashed" turned out to have a fair amount of life when revisited.
It really comes down to how Capcom presents and continues to support these characters.
Juri has been praised as a highlight of SF4's new characters, with the "anti/evil" Chun-Li theme being credited for her strong presence and look. But what if Capcom had simply abandoned Juri after SF4? It would have been so easy to reverse the story, with the evil Chun-Li aspect being the example of why she was a gimmick one-off character. As for Juri's future, it still depends on Capcom. If they don't give her a bit of a buff, she may still end up limping into obscurity.
Necalli? While often mocked, he could have been a contender. Capcom just didn't bother to present him as one. He went from being oversold as the face of SF5 to being relegated to an unimportant, no impact, low interaction b-story.
It is rather similar to pro-wrestling. How Capcom promotes or undermines a character can be as or more important than the design itself. Break out hits, characters that rise (and more so stay) above poor promotion, can be rare.
Is Abigail an obvious one-off? Of course. But I don't say that because of the design itself. I say it because Abigail doesn't look like a character that Capcom/Ono is going to be interested in continuing to support. Abigail's only hope for the future is to luck into being overpowered enough that he can establish a strong fan base, and then continue to be lucky enough that Capcom doesn't promptly nerf him right back out of it.
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
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CFN: zonepharaoh
| "Dude, where's my car?" , posted Sat 29 Jul 11:41:
quote:
The take out is that Two-P's inclusion in a future season is basically confirmed now. They left him out of the scene BECAUSE he will show up later to continue the story. There's no other explanation.
At last, something to look forward to besides it not being season two anymore!
Actually, while Abigail may look like ass, they sure have the stage right, with some SERIOUS 1980s ROCK AND ROLL that I'm sure would remind me of Final Fight if I'd actually played Final Fight. But it's good enough that I almost imagine that I did! I hope he finds his car.
And what's this? A remix of a classic character theme that isn't z-grade synthesizer hell? Yes, the Suzaku Castle theme is quite good! I'd say it was by our lord Kobayashi Keiko, but after being so shockingly tricked by his perfect clone on the Kanzuki Manor level, I can't be sure anymore.
And while everyone assumed that everything about the game menus would be broken forever, it turns out that there are some interesting statistics hidden unintuitively away on the main menu screen if you press a random button per the bottom right. Well, some parts are still broken, of course, but there's a lot more info than there was! It's gratifying to be able to examine my losses through so many different statistical lenses!
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 29 Jul 13:10] |
| | "Re(1):Mod Fighter V" , posted Sun 6 Aug 06:11
quote:
Even if Capcom can't be arsed to come up with a summer announcement any more exciting than Abigail, I've been remiss in not adding a Madman-appropriate link to spice things up: the wealth of mods for those people playing on PC! Whether it's remaking Vega into an even more fearsome Q, restoring R.Mika's ass-slap, or making Ibuki into 2B, almost everything in here is more interesting in season 2!
A few days ago, Capcom sent DMCA takedown notices to two of the bigger SF5 costume modders, BrutalAce and Khaledantar666.
Both modders are certainly guilty of copyright infringement. Both also created nude mods. But this doesn't yet look like Capcom is deciding to crack down on costume modding.
Rather, both modders used Patreon to fund their work. I know BrutalAce locked many costume mods only for Patreon subscribers of a certain tier, and it sounds like Khaledantar666 did the same. Capcom sent the notices through Patreon, and apparently have not sent similar notices through YouTube (used to provide video of and advertisement for costumes) or DeviantArt (used to provide downloads of non-paywalled works.)
Khaledantar666 has removed all links to his mods from DeviantArt and Youtube, and removed all his posts from Reddit. He has also protested his being banned from Zetaboards, which is the primary (non-Reddit) forum for such costume mods.
BrutalAce has kept his various links up, and you can still download his publicly available costume mods. I do not believe he has made his paywalled mods publicly available though.
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| | "Re(2):Mod Fighter V" , posted Sun 6 Aug 12:44
quote:
Even if Capcom can't be arsed to come up with a summer announcement any more exciting than Abigail, I've been remiss in not adding a Madman-appropriate link to spice things up: the wealth of mods for those people playing on PC! Whether it's remaking Vega into an even more fearsome Q, restoring R.Mika's ass-slap, or making Ibuki into 2B, almost everything in here is more interesting in season 2!
A few days ago, Capcom sent DMCA takedown notices to two of the bigger SF5 costume modders, BrutalAce and Khaledantar666.
Both modders are certainly guilty of copyright infringement. Both also created nude mods. But this doesn't yet look like Capcom is deciding to crack down on costume modding.
Rather, both modders used Patreon to fund their work. I know BrutalAce locked many costume mods only for Patreon subscribers of a certain tier, and it sounds like Khaledantar666 did the same. Capcom sent the notices through Patreon, and apparently have not sent similar notices through YouTube (used to provide video of and advertisement for costumes) or DeviantArt (used to provide downloads of non-paywalled works.)
Khaledantar666 has removed all links to his mods from DeviantArt and Youtube, and removed all his posts from Reddit. He has also protested his being banned from Zetaboards, which is the primary (non-Reddit) forum for such costume mods.
BrutalAce has kept his various links up, and you can still d
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
I think, modding stuff for free is fine. However, if you make money out of mods by using assets of games without permission, then you are much in a very big trouble.
Just don't involve money when making stuff like mods.
That is just my understanding in the situation.
"Lasciate ogne speranza"
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
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CFN: zonepharaoh
| "Re(4):Battle Costume sale on US PSN" , posted Thu 17 Aug 10:19
quote:
It's the same wall that Seth splats people against and Vega throws people into in the EX games.
Did you know: Chun-li and R.Mika aren't actually jumping against an invisble wall, they actually have a small crew that brings a plexiglass barrier wherever they move???
Regarding getting shut down for charging for mods: it's interesting since on one hand it's basically doujin and no mod, nude or otherwise, is visible to anyone but you...harmless, no? On the other, unlike doujinshi, mods are more or less directly competing with Capcom's own "mods" or DLC. But the truth is that the paid mods are literally giving people exactly what they want, rather than what Capcom guesses they want. A smarter, better Capcom from the earlier days would emulate its old Rockman boss design contests, and put the best mods up for sale in the official store! Naturally, this is utterly beyond the grasp of anyone currently working there.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
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CFN: zonepharaoh
| "Abigail Wa SHOCK / Madman Ga Taosenai" , posted Sun 20 Aug 08:52:
I'm here to offer a much overdue mea culpa...to Abigail! After playing against Iggy's Abigail, I realized I was completely wrong. Here I thought he was this huge ugly lunkhead, but actually he's a wonderful huge ugly lunkhead who is aesthetically a Hokuto No Ken character, of course! He's magnificent! He's funny! I completely agree that he would fit in the SFII cast. To repent, I will yell YOU WA SHOCK in public at least once a week until I forget.
Speaking of hulking bodies, I can't touch the legendary Two-P posts, but after recent fights with Professor's insane flying Zangief, the official theme song of the SFV LAGFEST is now Airman Madman Ga Taosenai, just in time for the song's 10th anniversary.
気がついたら おなじ めん対戦ばかりプレイ そして いつも おなじ場所で死ぬ
I realized I'm always playing the same part match and dying in the same place
あきらめずに消える あしば飛ぶザンギエフに 挑戦するけど すぐに下に落ちるつぶされるよ
I keep on trying and take on the disappearing platforms that jumping Zangief but I instantly fall below am crushed
アイテム2号があればリュウを使ってくれれば らくに 向こうのきしまでつマッドマンが倒せるはずだけど
If I had Item #2 he would just use Ryu, I could easily get to the other side should easily be able to beat Madman but
何回やっても 何回やっても エアーマンマッドマンが倒せないよ
No matter how times, no matter how many times I try, I can't beat Airman Madman!
あのたつまき 何回やってもよけれない
No matter how many times I try, I can't dodge that Tatsumaki
うしろに回って うちつづけても いずれは風にとばされる
I try moving in back and keep on punching, but I eventually get blown away
タイム連打ヒット確認も ためしてみたけど たつまき相手じゃ 意味がない
I tried the time barrage glitch hit confirming but it's pointless against that Tatsumaki
だから次は絶対勝つために 僕はE缶ゲージだけは最後まで取っておく
So to make sure I win for sure next time, I'm saving my E-tank meter until the very end
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Mon 21 Aug 01:32] |
| | "Re(2):Mod Fighter V" , posted Mon 21 Aug 00:52
quote:
A few days ago, Capcom sent DMCA takedown notices to two of the bigger SF5 costume modders, BrutalAce and Khaledantar666.
An update to my old news...
I don't believe Capcom ever sent any more DMCA takedowns, even to other SF5 modders that use Patreon to fund their modding.
BrutalAce and Khaledantar666 are probably continuing to sell SF5 costume mods outside of Patreon. BrutalAce set up a new modding forum for the two of them. They never mention money requirements in public, but Khalendantar666 advertises five "tiers" for his new mods, while only giving public download links for the lowest tier. When asked about the higher tiers, Khaledantar666 would only publicly say that it was possible to get them, without actually explaining how. Right after the DMCA takedowns, people assumed mod selling would just move to private messaging and Paypal, so it wouldn't be a surprise if that is what they've done.
The mod quality seems unaffected. Kung Fury Ryu just seems so much better an idea than Capcom's own Red Bull Ryu...
On a side note, for anyone upset at the lack of male nude mods, Segadordelinks appears to be working on that. At the least he has made nude Rashid and Zangief mods, with physics.
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
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CFN: zonepharaoh
| "Re(5):Abigail Wa SHOCK / Madman Ga Taosenai" , posted Mon 21 Aug 01:26:
quote:
Probably neither of them is racially offensive enough to feature in a game made circa 1991 but I think Rashid makes more sense than Hakan in SF2, design and gameplay-wise.
Aside from whatever the hell Blanka was, the beauty of SFII's designs is that they're archetypal but joyously so. I can't imagine anyone but a real hardass not finding their particular country's character delightful.
quote:
Doesn't his massive size define him? He would have started as a completely different character in SFII because of sprite limitations.
That's fair! Come to think of it, his huge size did stir something in my memories from the past, but it was actually of one of those huge dudes in Samurai Spirits. After one horrifying round with Iggy where the voice setting flipped into English for some reason before I fixed it, it was clear just how Japanese a design he is, oddly enough. His Japanese laugh and grunt are heavily coded by years of voice acting culture as a direct successor of the Hokuto No Ken-style "biker goon." Ironically, despite the ultimate source of this entire design being Mad Max, the English personality is just indistinctly growly and shouty.
quote:
I never noticed how self-serious SF3 was... The closest to a funny character this game had was Necro, maybe? Even Hugo is silly, but in a non-fun way.
And this is why SFIII is so dreary, despite the beauty of the animation. We've discussed elsewhere how they're all a bunch of "nowhere men" with no obvious culture or martial art, but they're also just so damned boring! I was wary of these guys showing up in SFV, but oddly enough, it took Urien's new shades and the nutty expression on his victory pose for me to "get" him.
quote:
At the least he has made nude Rashid and Zangief mods, with physics.
...! 
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Mon 21 Aug 01:33] |
| | "Re(7):Abigail Wa SHOCK / Madman Ga Taosenai" , posted Mon 21 Aug 05:03
quote:
Aside from whatever the hell Blanka was, the beauty of SFII's designs is that they're archetypal but joyously so. I can't imagine anyone but a real hardass not finding particular their country's character delightful.
I mean...
I understand the reference behind Mike Bison, but I'm pretty sure a lot of African-Americans were less than thrilled to have their only token representation as a violent, sleazy and stupid goon.
And then Dee Jay arrived and... yeah.
Native Americans being all thrown together into one big bowl of "they're all the same anyway" and inexplicably sent to Mexico with T.Hawk wasn't too hot either.
"That's how it was at the time" and all that, there's dozen of other series doing the same or worse (starting with Mortal Kombat, which cannot even use the "haha, these silly Japanese people don't understand the race issue in the US" shield). But it doesn't make it OK, even at the time: what changed is that minorities now have managed to make their voices heard by a larger chunk of the population. I believe these stereotypes are as harmful then as they are now, it's just that more non-African-Americans and non-Native-Americans know that it's not because they are not personally insulted by these designs that they are not insulting. Same with the token effeminate character from the 80s.
Obviously, it's worse when designers remain stubbornly oblivious to these voices and continue to create these characters in 2017. Looking at you, DQ11.
So, as much as I like T.Hawk and I think he has something interesting to contribute gameplay-wise to SF5, I'm wondering how you could keep the character but update his design to be less offensive. Especially since it would require extensive communication between Capcom USA and Japan, which I've been led to believe is complicated.
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
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| "Re(8):Abigail Wa SHOCK / Madman Ga Taosenai" , posted Mon 21 Aug 05:50:
Ah, that's fair, I'd forgetten Boxer since he's kind of lame. But of the original group, if you omit him and Blanka, I think you have by a vast majority a group of "nationally symbolic characters" that anyone would be perfectly happy to have associated with their country: US (2), Japan (2), China (1), Thailand (1), Spain (1), Russia (1), and India (1).
If anything, the cultural sloppiness of T.Hawk and dopiness of Deejay affirm how I don't care much for the character additions of Super. Though if I remember correctly, I think it was actually someone in Capcom USA who pushed for Deejay...?
By contrast today, as a mystical Azetec ghost myself, I am very disappointed with how lame Necalli is.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Mon 21 Aug 05:52] |
| | "Re(9):Abigail Wa SHOCK / Madman Ga Taosenai" , posted Mon 21 Aug 09:21
quote:
If anything, the cultural sloppiness of T.Hawk and dopiness of Deejay affirm how I don't care much for the character additions of Super. Though if I remember correctly, I think it was actually someone in Capcom USA who pushed for Deejay...?
Capcom USA's James Goddard designed Dee Jay, supposedly basing him on Billy Blanks. I'm not sure how Capcom got "Jamaican kickboxer" from "American Taekwando practitioner and creator of Tae Bo", though.
As for Super's new characters, they are indeed a rather mixed bag.
Cammy quickly became a mainstay, but doesn't carry a visible country affiliation the way the rest of the cast does.
Fei Long...isn't offensive? Honestly, I tend to forget Fei Long exists. He might suffer from being a bit too inspired by a real person. Balrog/Bison/Boxer, while clearly carrying his Mike Tyson inspiration, was always very much his own character. Fei Long never really rose above "Bruce Lee knock-off".
T. Hawk feels like lost potential. He was a bit too stereotyped for his own good, his country affiliation was a mess, and it never really felt like he filled a gameplay role.
Dee Jay... While Fei Long is the guy I always forget exists, Dee Jay is the guy that probably most people want to forget (though T Hawk might be second.) Dee Jay could possibly be salvaged with a serious redesign, but he's got some heavy baggage. (And I guess there is a 50/50 shot that he'd be "redesigned" into a joke, something equally bad.)
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| | "Re(10):Abigail Wa SHOCK / Madman Ga Taosenai" , posted Mon 21 Aug 10:44
I'm pretty ok with a character being a Bruce Lee clone, because Bruce Lee is such an icon of martial arts that Bruce Lee just showing up in your game about martial artists from around the world seems perfectly normal. Forrest Law and Marshall Law are no less Bruce Lee clones in Tekken. The one thing they all have in common is that they 100% believe that Bruce Lee is AWESOME and are earnestly trying to produce the most awesome vision of Bruce Lee that they can in their game.
T.Hawk comes across as just trying to make a stereotype of native Americans. Fei Long managed to even include a gameplay mechanic, the rekka chain combos, for which all similar moves in 2D fighting games since are referred to by! T.Hawk is a grappler with a dragon punch and a dive. Lame. Dee Jay helped lay the groundwork for future Capcom fighters having moves which hit more times if you mashed harder, and Gen's particular version which like Dee Jay's, wouldn't give you the full number of hits unless you mashed in a very particular way!
That said, Dee Jay being a sonic boom/flash kick character is lame.
Cammy was an ambitious character in terms of gameplay design, and frankly makes T.Hawk look even MORE poorly thought out in comparison. Sure she doesn't wind up being actually that good, but I think that it's entirely possible that she could've wound up being way too good if Capcom wasn't careful.
My one complaint is that the thing most fans identify with Cammy is her butt and bare legs (and that's ok!), as opposed to her incredible musculature. I can think of few female characters in fighting games in the early 90s who weren't overtly female wrestler types who were depicted with defined muscles! Once we hit the Alpha series with its more flat-shaded anime-inspired look, Cammy's legs lost all their muscle definition and she got stuffed into a turtleneck sweater! She still animated gracefully, but it's unfortunate that that element of her design got buried until SF4... where everybody was roided up with giant muscles, and they brought back things like six-pack abs on Cammy. Sometimes you can arrive at the right decision through the wrong line of thinking/process, I guess.
If you want to think of one thing in which all the newcomers were uninspired in, it's that 3 of the 4 have a dragon punch, and the 4th one has upkicks/flashkick. That's honestly kind of unimaginative.
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| | "Re(2):Re(10):Abigail Wa SHOCK / Madman Ga Tao" , posted Tue 22 Aug 00:07
The gameplay proposition of Hawk was a different take on the big burly archetype: aggressive and mobile instead of defensive powerhouse (Gief).
The problem is that a grappler with high mobility and a big hitbox has so much inner-contradictions that neither Hawk in SSF2, Birdie in Zero, or Hawk in Zero3↑ (or even Alex?) managed to get it right. Also Gief became more mobile and aggressive through the years.
Hawk in SSF4 managed to get something going. His 360 was visibly worse than Gief, but his normals were better, the EX system allowed his three moving moves (Condor Spike, Dive, and... Spire?) to have more interesting variations, and the horizontal one could be used to move through the screen more efficiently. The FADC system didn't do him any favour, but it was a step in the right direction. I really think he should have had more moves in the air, either the 360 or the horizontal Condor move. My hope if he ever gets to SF5 is that his V-skill should be a real 8-way dash, which could be hilarious if he remains bigger than Gief.
He would probably still be low-tier (I'd imagine that half of the cast would easily shoot down such a big target if he doesn't get at least some armor), but there's a possibility of making him a fun concept. If they clean up his design.
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| | "Re(3):Re(10):Abigail Wa SHOCK / Madman Ga Tao" , posted Tue 22 Aug 02:47
quote:
The gameplay proposition of Hawk was a different take on the big burly archetype: aggressive and mobile instead of defensive powerhouse (Gief).
The problem is that a grappler with high mobility and a big hitbox has so much inner-contradictions that neither Hawk in SSF2, Birdie in Zero, or Hawk in Zero3↑ (or even Alex?) managed to get it right. Also Gief became more mobile and aggressive through the years.
Hawk in SSF4 managed to get something going. His 360 was visibly worse than Gief, but his normals were better, the EX system allowed his three moving moves (Condor Spike, Dive, and... Spire?) to have more interesting variations, and the horizontal one could be used to move through the screen more efficiently. The FADC system didn't do him any favour, but it was a step in the right direction. I really think he should have had more moves in the air, either the 360 or the horizontal Condor move. My hope if he ever gets to SF5 is that his V-skill should be a real 8-way dash, which could be hilarious if he remains bigger than Gief.
He would probably still be low-tier (I'd imagine that half of the cast would easily shoot down such a big target if he doesn't get at least some armor), but there's a possibility of making him a fun concept. If they clean up his design.
Speaking of big characters with 8-way dash, that's exactly what Bedman has in GG Xrd!
It's kind of telling that when T.Hawk was finally determined to be a good character in SSF2X, it was for some reasons that were good (long pokes that O.Hawk has that are good), and some reasons that are stupid/awesome/stupid-awesome/awesome-stupid (the option select corner throw loop that when executed properly is unescapable except for Blanka).
In SFV, Zangief becoming a very strong character in Season 2.5 in spite of the grey health changes is heavily because a successful SPD leads to a grab/hitconfirm-into-lariat mixup that loops into itself. Unlike most pre-SFV versions of Zangief, bad choices on the defense can lead to seriously huge combo damage including hitconfirm into super, as well!
I agree that the concept of a big grappler equipped with sudden movements is cool, and one that Capcom hasn't really executed well across SF as a series. On the other hand, a highly mobile big character was created marvelously (heh) in the Vs. series (well, prior to MvC3, anyway) with Sentinel (possibly accidentally so). I don't think any modern fighting game is willing to make a character like MvC2 sentinel, unless they build an entire game around handling characters like that.
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| | "Re(3):Re(10):Abigail Wa SHOCK / Madman Ga Tao" , posted Tue 22 Aug 06:09
quote:
Juri's funny in that she has a fan base even though nobody -including the producers of SF- know what to do with her. At the moment I think Juri exists solely for the benefit of this woman.
But people, including the producers of SF, knew what to do with Juri. They made an evil Chun-Li. She worked. She had a good visual design, an engaging personality, and was entertaining enough to play. She quickly built a fan base, and was considered the big success of SF4's new additions.
Everything was fine.
Then the producers of SF made SF5. SF5 had various issues that could be described as "the producers didn't know what to do with X", or at the least "what were they thinking?". Juri just happened to be one of the worst victims, but being a victim itself wasn't any special badge.
Capcom tried to add some new mechanics to Juri's moveset. That on its own is fine. The problem here is that Capcom cares differently about different characters, and no one in power seemingly ever cared to give Juri the necessary tweaks to bring her into contention.
Changing Juri's input motions was... Well, the intention was good. But again Juri was just given the short shrift by the producers. She wasn't actually rebalanced to bring her into real contention, so the input changes just seemed like pointless change. (If Juri had been otherwise improved to the point that she was consistently placing top eight in tournaments, then the changes would have been viewed much differently.)
Juri's SF5 outfit, while not a crippling blow, also made it look like the producers didn't know what to do with her. But that wasn't Juri specifically, most of the new outfits ranged from mediocre to bad (to the point that some people openly suspected it was an intentional tactic to help sell nostalgia/premium outfits.)
The change between her story mode art and her final release outfit again made it look like the producers didn't know what they were doing. But that was either shoddy planning, or no different than the changes to R Mika's animations and Cammy's intro camera.
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
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| "Re(10):Abigail Wa SHOCK / Madman Ga Taosenai" , posted Tue 22 Aug 11:00:
I am pleased by all this T. Hawk discussion. Official contrarian season 3 roster now consists of T.Hawk, Sodom, Skullomania, and Zeku.
quote:
The change between her story mode art and her final release outfit again made it look like the producers didn't know what they were doing. But that was either shoddy planning, or no different than the changes to R Mika's animations and Cammy's intro camera.
On one hand, I don't know about Juri's engaging personality since I find the coarseness of her dialogue (note I didn't say suggestiveness) exhausting. On the other hand, whether it's school uniform Chun-li's underwear, fixing Juri's "new" oufit, or remembering where the smack comes from in R.Mika's super, mods to the PC version are here to help.
quote:
Unlike most pre-SFV versions of Zangief, bad choices on the defense can lead to seriously huge combo damage
You called?
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Tue 22 Aug 12:26] |
| | "Re(6):Re(10):Abigail Wa SHOCK / Madman Ga Tao" , posted Fri 25 Aug 12:09
quote:
Sometimes Penny Arcade comics manage to be relevant to the cafe!
I think the year is kind of off, though, because first-person shooters in 1992 were like... Wolfenstein 3D, when the comic clearly wants to be thinking of at least FPS games that had multiplayer in them, and not even the first generation of them, like Quake 1. We're talking maybe Quake 2.
In case you had forgotten what first-person shooters from 1998 looked like:
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Fun fact, I was once (barely) ranked in the top 500 UT players in... must have been 1999. Not amazing, but I still felt pretty good about it.
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| | "Re(3):Menat" , posted Mon 28 Aug 20:35
So, she's a sort of toned-down Viola from Soulcalibur 5? At least that's new in SF, let's hope she has a wide variation of tricks available (since characters often seem to be confined to one specific gameplay niche in SF5). She feels like they haven't gone far enough with her, as she doesn't seem to have half the versatility and control over her orbs that Viola had... We'll see.
I like the animation when her legs shake because she's trying to hold the weight of the opponent above her head. That's cute. The cat thing and the egyptian-like punches, not so much, especially after Skullgirls did the same concept with Eliza, only good.
The way she kicks at awkward angles without being possibly able to put any weight into them reminds me of Zafina in Tekken 6, which is not a compliment.
The less things said about her sexy mummy costume, the better. I wonder how long it will take for her to have as many costumes as Juri/Chunli/Cammy/Laura. With the typically Japanese imitation of cat she does, I give her six months top to get a sexy maid costume.
We shall see. Maybe her gameplay or personality will save her. The season 2 has been good to me with Abigail and Kolin, so I can let her pass if she ends up as garbage as Ed.
Actually, I wonder if Ed and her might have been animated by the same person(s), probably someone with less experience that the guy who did Abigail? Since Capcom has famously lost most of their senior talent, they probably have a few younger animators doing some work, and Menat really looks animated by some anime fan who doesn't have much interest with actual martial arts, or even exercise in general.
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| | "Re(5):Menat" , posted Tue 29 Aug 19:36
quote:
Though it's also quite possible that there was meddling from above with a lot of cooks in the kitchen having input on the character so she just got watered down with the poor artists caught in the middle just trying to stay afloat of all the conflicting feedback. From my experience this is a very common scenario when a game ships with derpy art.
I don't think it's a too many cooks situation. Her design is very clear: she's lowest-denominator-appealing, exuding male-gaze-approved traits of grace (the dancing moves), weakness (the throw), availability (the manekineko pose) and impossibly thin body, on top of the post-colonial trope of an eroticized exotic female body. Notice she's also the only character in SF5 (or even in SF as a whole?) with normal hands and feet instead of the exaggerated limbs that were an esthetic choice but made even Cammy and Chunli unappealing to the people for whom these games only exist as fapping material.
She's the new Elena: an African body with western-approved physical traits and general nonthreatening attitude. They are both colonized intellects as well: Elena going to study in Japan and France, Menat studying under an Italian mentor (blatantly disregarding any inspiration you could find in ancient mystical cults originated in Egypt, so her Cleopatra cosplay only exists to reinforce the sexiness, with echoes ranging from Roman propaganda against Marcus Antonius to Liz Taylor).
I was going to say that Elena was worse because her default costume was a minimal bikini and her fighting style was from another continent, but then Menat's sexy mummy attire is not really better. Even Laura, and her over-sexualized attitude and abysmal IQ, has more agency, dynamism and independence as these two (or maybe I'm prejudiced against Brazilian women). Sakura was dumb, but also focused on her goal, powerful, and emotionally unavailable since she worshiped Ryu. Ibuki... is borderline. Maybe the dolls are even worse?
Obviously, most other Japanese fighting games are full of these, and such designs are what placed SNK on the map in the first place (Nakoruru is probably unbeatable in that regard), so it might be acceptable to go for the single male player's jugular with how struggling the SF brand is.
And you just need to compare the Abigail and Menat reveal threads (on 2ch, Neogaf or Gamefaqs) to see that the character is already a success. I'm also quite sure Abigail would never have been approved by the higher-ups if Menat hadn't been there to bump the season pass up.
I'm not particularly annoyed because I'll play her regardless if her gameplay appeals to me, but I'm sad to read black people rejoicing that they got another brown-skinned character in the series. I guess beggars can't be choosers, but this lack of political awareness among minorities is concerning.
Or maybe the situation in MvCI is so bad that this is good in comparison.
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| | "Re(6):Menat" , posted Wed 30 Aug 01:26:
Nobi, I love your complex animation and art analysis, I truly do; but sometimes with your SF5 gripes, I feel like I am reading an hygiene inspector complaining about improper sanitization in the surgery block while the whole hospital is on fire.
Menat is by far the best new character of the second season. She doesn't even have to be a good character to achieve that performance. I won't try to understand what kind of Stockholm Syndrome is at work for Abigail to receive so little slack for all the things going wrong there, and I get that he is at least trying something interesting and that gets more brownie points on MMC because we pretty much all prefer interesting failure to the success of a mediocre recipe. But Ed and Abigail are interesting ideas which are implemented in a super clunky way at the most basic level in design and function (however well they may work once you put work into them). Maybe it's time the SF5 team gives up trying to be ArcSystemWorks and accepts to make simpler characters and follow simpler ideas.
Menat is at the very least serviceable, and safe, and simple to understand, and iconic enough (literally speaking) that she can be remembered by all sorts of players. And she has a strong name: snappy, easy to remember, easy to associate. Her body type/shape, her basic colors and her gimmick are quickly identified. She will never be mistaken for a DLC costume, like I have seen happen when Kolin was announced and some random observers thought they were Cammy screenshots at first. Her movements (as noodley as they are) and her ball gimmick go well with the fluid-inspired visual effects Capcom has gone for in SF5. She's on brand. Even the character-as-a-function might not be bad on paper. Basically she a sort of Dhalsim redux when you consider her zoning options.
She's a deplorable cliché, but it works in what they are trying to achieve with the character, which is more than you could say for many of the SF5 newcomers. You'll see many more fan arts and dōjin and cosplays of Menat than Kolin, Ed, Abigail, and probably even Laura and Fang. OK, so she falls into the many traps of a 90's female fighter design, and it can be annoying. Coming back to an earlier discussion here, she's Rashid without the research. But that will work better for Capcom here, and the design and animation and background issues can be worked out in sequels. Her character design is certainly not in the pantheon of thoughtful artistic mastery but, dude, we're talking about SF5 here.
Męme Narumi est épatée !
[this message was edited by chazumaru on Wed 30 Aug 01:40] |
| | "Re(7):Menat" , posted Wed 30 Aug 01:54
One other thing about Menat (that I still haven't played so what do I know, but): she really, really seems to be a translation of SC5's Viola in 2D. It's not even "[character] is the Ryu of this game", or even "Juri in SF5 and Polimer in TvC use the same system and idea from GGX's Jam". We're at the level of "Broken in World Heroes took all possible clues from Dhalsim", or other cheap SF2 knock-offs from the 90s.
On one hand, such a borderline ripoff has never happened in a Capcom game and I'm a bit concerned, generally speaking.
On the other, Viola was one of the most difficult characters to play as in SC5. I don't know whether that will translates similarly in SF5, but being a difficult character to play might hinder Menat's broad appeal.
Chaz, what are your issues with Abigail? Since you don't play the game I think, are you talking in terms of "that's not a character that would be likely to make me buy the game, so he's failing at capturing a new audience"? Do you think he generated negative buzz that hindered whatever growth the game has left? From an animation, design and gameplay point of view, Abigail manages to do exactly what the designers wanted and the final result is very cohesive and full of personality, so I'm not sure what you mean. Or do you mean the intent was wrong, and they should focus on bankable characters only, popular veterans and pretty girls for Tumblr?
Doing some reading, I think I also found who Ed is for: most people I've seen that like Ed also seem to think Necalli is the best newcomer in SF5. Case closed!
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| | "Re(8):Menat" , posted Wed 30 Aug 02:48:
They did not play the same at all, but World Heroes' Dragon preceded SSF2's Fei-Long. I remember it was a big surprise at the time that Capcom would concede another developer had a strong idea for a character.
We're talking purely about character designs and concepts here. Abigail is a complete failure. He's a really tricky character to pull out because he does not try to be cool. He tries to be impressive, and scary, and massive. But he doesn't pull the Mad Max / Hokuto no Ken villain vibe properly.
• He acts simple-minded, not dangerously stupid. Very important difference.
• No design references to the outfits of the post-apo bandit settings mentioned above. So there will be no immediate connection for players who might be interested in those settings. He has a very civilized, polished look for someone who acts as the giant goon.
• The car theme= OK. (I mean... you know my entire problem with his conceptual origins, but OK.) But his design does not fetishizes cars, it just accessorizes them. This character was designed by a person who is not in love with cars. See Mad Max Fury Road for proper inspirations.
• His key character pattern is to be "the Hulk" of the game. He is much bigger than you, but then transforms into a bigger, scarier version of himself. However; the difference between the two versions of Abigail are so faint visually that even Capcom hilariously could not figure it out themselves. (see Escanor/Pride from the manga 7 Deadly Sins for a proper and popular implementation of the same trope)
• On a basic level, Super Armor was the way and the focus to go to make him appealing "as a character function". Absorbing projectiles is a good feature to explain the character's value, but they should have done more with this aspect of the character if they wanted to make the character appealing to more people.
• His poses do not make sense for a character who should always look down on his opponents, both figuratively and literally. See Earthquake.
• The FF reference is fucked up because of the white-washing and how lazily they implemented the car theme around his character.
• The entire wrestling reference is lost, as well as the conceptual connection with Andore/Hugo.
• The Canadian origins bring absolutely nothing, which is downright insulting for a SF character, especially one that represents their country for the first time in the series. He's Canadian because they did not think of Puerto Rico.
His background is not interesting, his physique is too outlandish for cosplays, his costume is plain, his thematic "car lover" persona will not appeal to car fans, his transformation is pointless and he was not charismatic or memorable enough in FF to appeal to old school Capcom fans in any way. His only success and charm point is his CA. He has way too many weak points to make enough users happy, bring enough new users, or get the game discussed in any other capacity. Is he gaining traction in the bara community maybe? I am sure there are much better examples floating around for that crowd. It (unfortunately) does not matter that the character ends up being fun once you actually start looking into his abilities and how he should be played, because he lost the attention of too many potential customers too quickly. Abigail's the Wii U. It's a swing and a miss for a new entry, only mitigated because he is slightly original and ballsy for a Street Fighter (nothing Earthquake hasn't done in the grand scheme of things) and because Ed came before him and this helps one remember how much worse a character design can be.
(I won't even harp on the announcement strategy surrounding the character.)
Męme Narumi est épatée !
[this message was edited by chazumaru on Wed 30 Aug 03:01] |
Platinum Carpet V.I.P - IGGY ARI !  | "Re(9):Menat" , posted Wed 30 Aug 07:33
From an original design point of view, OK, I see some of your points.
As for the Canada thing... I think representing a country with a character was mostly SF2's thing. Zero characters seldom stereotype their countries (except if you think Rose looks extremely Italian?). SF3 didn't do anything interesting with nationalities: Urien is either Egyptian or Mexican, but never Greek even though that would make more sense, Elena is not Brazilian, I'm not sure which country Oro is from, Hugo is German but does nothing with it, Remy is a disaster... SF4 had Hakan, but he's more tied to oil wrestling than specifically Turkey. Same for Juri, who does Tae Kwon Do and that's basically all that's Korean about her. Abel is best not talked about, Viper originally auditioned for a different game series, and Fuerte does lucha libre but his main gimmick is cooking?
Honestly, I think the only post-SSF2 characters that do a good job at carrying popular stereotypes about their countries are the Japanese ones (Sakura, Ibuki, Makoto...), the US ones (Alex, Nash, Rufus for all the wrong reasons), the Chinese ones (Gen, Yun, Yang and FANG if he counts) and Dudley.
There are 5 Russian characters in the series, and while Zangief and Kolin play their role, Necro, Twelve and Decapre could be from anywhere else.
Between Laura, Rashid, FANG, Kolin and now Menat, that's half of the characters aping towards SF2's type of designs, while Ed and Abigail maybe push more towards the SFZero designs? God knows what happened with Necalli.
quote:
It (unfortunately) does not matter that the character ends up being fun once you actually start looking into his abilities and how he should be played, because he lost the attention of too many potential customers too quickly.
He's a DLC character for a game that is not looking for new customers, and prefers to nickel and dime the existing ones. At first, most people were repulsed, so the shock factor at least made him talked about, even negatively. And he was ugly enough to be the center of attention for several days (probably helped by the general discontent against Capcom prevalent on the Internet). But since its only potential customers already had the game and ended up fighting against him whether they liked it or not, they had time to notice his amazing animations and trollish personality. They are still free to still dislike him, but the general opinion about him is fairly positive amongst people who still play SF5, i.e. his main target.
Back when Season 2 was teased as having 5 new characters, my theory was that it was always the plan to have a relaunch of the game by season 3, and that season 2 was a stop-gap that would give more experimental characters time to grow. Plus, they needed to keep as many fan favourites as possible for SSF5, and filling a S2 with lesser characters would have been even more risky than "Gouki and 5 nobodies". People talked more about Abigail and Menat than they would have about Fei Long and Oro, I think.
I'm probably wrong, of course.
For some of your other criticisms, it's true that it fails to ride the Hokuto no goon stereotype. But Capcom actually chose a different trope. While Abigail looks stupid, he's actually rather smart as far as Street Fighter characters go: he has his own business, makes his own money, and even gave a job to a couple of ex-Mad Gear grunts. He's as good an entrepreneur as Poison! He just happens to live in his own world and it can be a bit difficult to have a conversation with him, but his heart is the right place, and his brain as well.
In terms of personality, I thought he was going to be the joke character of the game, but he's actually a troll. He's entirely self-aware, and goes from ridiculous car-inspired moves (his main gimmick is not the armour, that's more Zangief's thing) that make him run like a 4-year-old imitating a car, to smart check gestures on his back dash and snark expressions after some of his moves.
Also, you might have heard how teabagging has recently invaded the fighting game community (mostly with the younger members). Well, his crouching pose seems entirely made for teabagging: arrogant, confident, tights spread wide open with a giant smirk.
The general impression he gives is not that he's dumb nor that he plays dumb: he's just in his own world and doesn't make any effort to adjust to his surrounding (which is probably the only way to survive if you're 2.6 meters high).
He's basically everything that Rufus tried to be and failed miserably at: he's a troll done right.
quote:
Is he gaining traction in the bara community maybe?
That'd be more Alex... or Gief... or... well, after what happened to Ed's design, every male character of the game that is not FANG or Dhalsim. At least the true original Capcom spirit of 1991 still lives!
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
STM: n/a
CFN: zonepharaoh
| "Re(10):Menat" , posted Wed 30 Aug 08:28
quote:
I'm also quite sure Abigail would never have been approved by the higher-ups if Menat hadn't been there to bump the season pass up.
Menat died for your sins! Er, I mean, Menat made the grand sacrifice of being a "safe" character so that we could have glorious Abigail. That said...quote:
He tries to be impressive, and scary, and massive. But he doesn't pull the Mad Max / Hokuto no Ken villain vibe properly.
I'm forced to admit that Chaz is right here that on the surface, Abigail does not clue you into the apocalpytic biker trope. In fact, that's why I couldn't stand him at first with that American trailer. This is why it's so important that his Japanese voice is heavily, unmistakably coded as the successor of every biker goon and Hokuto No Ken production ever made. I literally loved him once I heard him talk when Iggy was using him. Love or hate Abigail, I'm so pleased that the Cafe is of course the premier place on the internet to discuss 30 years of SF character designs.
quote:
Chaz sez: He acts simple-minded, not dangerously stupid. Very important difference.
Iggy sez: While Abigail looks stupid, he's actually rather smart as far as Street Fighter characters go: he has his own business, makes his own money, and even gave a job to a couple of ex-Mad Gear grunts. He's as good an entrepreneur as Poison! He just happens to live in his own world and it can be a bit difficult to have a conversation with him, but his heart is the right place, and his brain as well.
I think the conversation answers itself in terms of conflicting expectations. Personally, I say: Abigail is a just a quirky giant trying to make an honest (?) living. Three cheers for Abigail!
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| | "Re(7):Menat" , posted Wed 30 Aug 09:40:
quote:
Menat is at the very least serviceable, and safe, and simple to understand, and iconic enough (literally speaking) that she can be remembered by all sorts of players. And she has a strong name: snappy, easy to remember, easy to associate. Her body type/shape, her basic colors and her gimmick are quickly identified. She will never be mistaken for a DLC costume,
Her name is fine. The rest of her is something of a mess.
Fortune-teller with orb-based attacks is a theme and a gimmick, but her moves don't much sell the theme. She has some dancer stuff, but stuff like that air grab special is about as anti-dancer as you can get. She has those cat pose bits, but that isn't a running theme or anything. Her design is like a lot of ideas were thrown together, but nothing has a strong central presence.
I don't feel her moves or animations establish any particular personality, either. Even if you hate Abigail or Ed, you can see a personality expressed in their designs. Menat's incohesive design makes her a cypher.
For her animations, having briefly messed with her in training mode, it is a mixed bag. Some of the concerns I had from the reveal trailer feel a bit more minor, but I ended up with new issues as well. Her animation honestly looks somewhat amateurish. The more I think about it though, I'm not sure whether it is just amateurish animation or just, again, that she does not have a solid central theme built into her design. I think her neutral jump is over-animated in a bad way, but I might have felt differently if more of her moveset was built around a "lithe dancer" idea. Her cat pose hands just look out of place when 98% of her animations have nothing to do with it. Is the actual throw and follow-up of her air special amateurish animation, or is it that the designer didn't have a solid idea to animate in the first place?
As for Menat's playability... I wouldn't consider myself a good player, but my first impressions are that Menat will fall into the lower half of tier lists? Unless people find some fancy (unintentional) stuff with her orbs, I just don't think she's going to go far.
Side note: For the EX version of her fireball, the two punches used determines the path of the orb. The EX version is supposed to pull the victim towards Menat, but the upward angle version will not pull a standing opponent even if it hits clean. Heck, it doesn't even always pull in a jumping opponent.
EDIT: It might just be me, but I'm also bugged that Menat's mouth is animated for her light punch even when she doesn't say anything. I might not have even noticed except that when I watched her in-game demonstration, I'd happened to notice that her mouth stayed rigidly closed even when she was calling out names or making sounds, so I paid attention to her face when I went into training mode. Where the first thing I did was hit light punch a few times, only to see her mouth repeatedly open despite not uttering a sound. (She did say something around the fourth time I hit the button.)
[this message was edited by Baines on Wed 30 Aug 09:46] |
| | "Re(9):Menat" , posted Fri 1 Sep 05:36:
quote:
A few quick thoughts on Menat:
Menat's game seems to be based around zoning, very technical play and making her opponents look stupid. If Menat can set the pace of the fight the other player has to constantly worry about that crystal ball bonking them in the back of the head. I'm not certain how the "reducing the skill gap" narrative fits in with Menat's kooky orb combos.
I like that Menat is so peripheral to the main story that she spends most of her story mode punching out Shadaloo mooks and talking to a character that's not in the game. Somehow Oro is very important to SF5 but can't be bothered to actually be in the game.
Menat looks strong. Almost got me to pop the game back into my PS4, but I'm too busy.
Her super seems to hit whoever, whenever, where ever. Seriously, it looks really good and is actually nicely animated.
Pressure and stun also look pretty insane with the long-ranged normals, and the air throw looks reliable. I'm no expert these days, but she looks pretty strong IMO. I just pretended I was playing while watching that video you linked and felt pretty good about myself, so I guess that's enough SFV for me!
I do feel guilty for never playing with you guys, though. Uh, maybe see you around Season 3?
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[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Fri 1 Sep 05:39] |
| PSN: Ishmael26b
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
STM: n/a
CFN: Ishmael26b
| "Re(10):Menat" , posted Sat 2 Sep 01:06
I guess Menat did have kitty ears at one point but someone must have decided that they were gilding the lily.
quote:
Menat looks strong. Almost got me to pop the game back into my PS4, but I'm too busy.
Her super seems to hit whoever, whenever, where ever. Seriously, it looks really good and is actually nicely animated.
Pressure and stun also look pretty insane with the long-ranged normals, and the air throw looks reliable. I'm no expert these days, but she looks pretty strong IMO. I just pretended I was playing while watching that video you linked and felt pretty good about myself, so I guess that's enough SFV for me!
I do feel guilty for never playing with you guys, though. Uh, maybe see you around Season 3?
It's still early but I'm beginning to think that in the right hands Menat is going to be trouble. So much of SF5 is based around running in and biting off big chunks of health. Menat, however, can zone in a way Dhalsim couldn't dream of and once she has meter she can create the weirdest combos. Everyone else is playing SF5 but Menat is the ship from R-Type. It will be interesting what sort of counter strategies are invented for her because Menat is doing things the rest of the cast cannot do. If I was a betting man I would say very few people will be able to play Menat to her full potential but on the execution/resource heavy character list she will probably end up ranked along the lines of Ibuki instead of Juri.
Now the question is: How is the next character going to be different? Season 2 seems to be all about experimentation so I can't imagine this "unknown" character is going to play like Guy or Maki.
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| | "Re(10):Menat" , posted Sat 2 Sep 18:23:
quote:
As for the Canada thing... I think representing a country with a character was mostly SF2's thing.
That's true. The lack of coherence actually it pissed me off in 3S whereas the original New Generation seemed to care more about this aspect of the characters. I think Remy's case for French nationality is just an excuse to make a Dobermann stage, although I remember some Internet tin-foiled hat explanation that it made sense for him to be in France if he was indeed Guile's son as proved by x + y + z.
For some reason, it never bothered me so much in SF Zero, maybe because they put much less emphasis on nationalities and geographical connections in that one. It's just one big anime drama and characters have nationalities because there's a line in the database to fill in, but their personal connections to each other matter much more than their personal backgrounds (which is a typical change you'll see growing in importance in games around that time, especially in SNK stuff).
By the way, it made perfect sense to me to see Rose in Venice, and she could have been played by Monica Bellucci at a time in her life. But she wore Italy as a fashion brand rather than a cultural statement, so she felt acceptable as an Italian in the same way that "Andy Bogard represents Italy? Sure, whatever". I am not confident I could even have told you the nationalities of R.Mika and Birdie unless I had seen them in SFV again. Obviously this issue pissed me off in SF4, but everything pisses me off in SF4 so... I am just happy Abel gives me another reason to complain.
Anyway, the reason I was bringing up this point is because I am convinced Abigail's design • would have been improved and • also made him more appealing to a wider audience (potentially two different issues) if his nationality had been a more important factor in his character design. It just feels like another detail which would have been so much better handled by the same company ten to fifteen years ago (and I concede the same goes for Menat).
In general my issue with the recent characters is Capcom simply forgot the simple rules about what makes <characters> cool.
quote:
Back when Season 2 was teased as having 5 new characters, my theory was that it was always the plan to have a relaunch of the game by season 3, and that season 2 was a stop-gap that would give more experimental characters time to grow. Plus, they needed to keep as many fan favourites as possible for SSF5, and filling a S2 with lesser characters would have been even more risky than "Gouki and 5 nobodies". People talked more about Abigail and Menat than they would have about Fei Long and Oro, I think.
That's probably true. I assume a potential Season 3 would be all about "now is the time to jump in!". It seems many more casual players on consoles only gave Street Fighter Zero and (to a lesser degree) Street Fighter III when they reached their third game/season as well.
quote:
While Abigail looks stupid, he's actually rather smart as far as Street Fighter characters go: he has his own business, makes his own money, and even gave a job to a couple of ex-Mad Gear grunts. He's as good an entrepreneur as Poison!
Oh. That's a very good point. However, rather than re-assessing Abigail, I think you just insulted the rest of the cast. I surely would rather loan money to Abigail than Ryu now that you pointed this out.
But, back to Menat. Such crazy hips, so many hits, so little actual damage... I am worried once people get more accustomed to her skills and limitations, she won't be worth the hassle at a high level because it requires so much energy to chip away one's health. I still think she brings good things to the roster!
Męme Narumi est épatée !
[this message was edited by chazumaru on Sat 2 Sep 18:31] |
| | "Re(2):Re(10):Menat" , posted Sat 2 Sep 19:31:
quote:
Menat stuff
I think after Ibuki, where at first it seemed like a lot of effort and, for SFV anyway, technical skill was required to do what merely seemed like as much damage as anybody else, people eventually figured out that she was actually really good. There was certainly the potential for her to not be very good, as well, but things wound up working in her favour.
In Menat's case, where Ibuki gets 1 combo and 1 mixup from her two bombs, Menat gets 3 or more mixup plus reset opportunities with her Spiral orbs. Ibuki's normals were kind of suspect, but Menat's have a lot of obvious strengths. I think she's going to wind up being on the stronger side of the cast.
I have an inkling that the Abigal/Menat matchup is going to be awful.
I don't know if I should be impressed or depressed that an incredibly comprehensive offensive setup can be devised within like... a day of a new character being released.
[this message was edited by Spoon on Sat 2 Sep 19:37] |
| | "Re(8):Menat" , posted Tue 5 Sep 00:40
quote:
Haha thanks! I actually completely agree with everything you just said, I just didn't have the energy to express how I felt about Abigail. That really just ... I gave up on Street Fighter completely after I saw the first screen of him. The fact that they thought that was good enough to ship let me know that I absolutely should not care about what they do with Street Fighter anymore...
It very much feels like someone at Capcom cannot wrap their head around the idea that less can be more. More than that, Capcom seems to have misunderstood "show, don't tell", as the way they overload outfit designs to inform the player about characters has become "tell, don't show".
The classic SF designs that have become iconic were largely simple affairs. Ryu wore a simple gi that only told you he was a martial artist of some sort. Ken wore the same gi in a different color, implying a connection to Ryu, but it took Ken's similar moveset to confirm that connection. Zangief was very muscular, but it was ultimately his moveset that revealed him to be a wrestler while his nationality was reflected in his stage and story. Chun-Li's outfit only told you that she was Chinese, while her muscular legs told you she was a kick-based fighter. Nothing of her physical design revealed she was a kid/detective/cop out for revenge. Guile's camo pants showed his military connection, while his flag tattoos showed his American connection. But it was instead Guile's stage that showed it was specifically the US Air Force, while his story revealed his reason for fighting.
You can go through the various SF characters like that. Cammy (generic military outfit), Akuma (generic gi connects to Ryu, instead relying other elements like animations and move colors to express the differences), Sagat, etc. It even holds in later characters. Sakura is a fighting school girl, Karin wears a more expensive outfit, etc.
SF5 is a different story.
Generic military isn't enough for Guile, he has to have a more realistic uniform, even if it is dull. It has to be busy as well, because "more is more" for Capcom. And thus we got Mall Cop Guile.
Abigail had a decent concept art that was very close to his previous incarnations. But that was presumably too dull for Capcom, so they had to add elements to it. And those elements had to reflect other elements of his profession and/or personality, so they stuck a bunch of tires on him to go with his newfound love of monster trucks. (Or they stuck tires on him first, and then came up with the love of trucks to explain why he was wearing tires.)
Ed had a dull design (scrawny kid in a hoodie). At the same time, I think Capcom could have gone an interesting direction with that physical design. Ed could have been a scrawny kid who relied on Psycho Power to fight, as his physical attacks were based on boxing moves that he didn't have the build to make effective.
But Capcom chose a busier path. To show his connection to Balrog/Boxer, Ed was given gloves and bulked up to a boxer/MMA build. Capcom apparently decided that Psycho Power wasn't enough to show Ed's connection to Bison/Dictator, so Ed got a new Bison-themed primary outfit. But since Ed is his own character and specifically not just a clone, that outfit was kind of a half-Bison affair. And of course it was a pointlessly complex outfit, because again for modern Capcom "more is more".
This all related a bit to Menat. While not an issue with her physical design, I find her animations to be a similar mishmash of ideas. (Lithe dancer, "Egyptian art" attacks, awkward poses, cat-girl poses, ...)
Mind, in this all there are the other just bewildering or questionable decisions.
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| | "Re(1):SFV : Arcade Edition leaked by Amazon" , posted Thu 5 Oct 22:19
quote:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0765LLC19/
Details a la Copy-pasta:
ASIN: B0765LLC19
Release date: January 16, 2018
ABOUT THE PRODUCT
Arcade mode - choose from six different paths themed after classic Street Fighter games
Gallery - unlock hundreds of illustrations as you play through arcade mode
Extra battle - complete timed challenges to obtain exclusive costumes throughout 2018
New v-triggers - each character will have two v-triggers, adding even more depth to the combat system
New visuals - the user interface is being redesigned with new Color schemes, revised menus and exciting pre-and-post-fight effects
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
Current players of Street Fighter V and future owners of Street Fighter V: arcade Edition will be placed into the same player pool, with PS4 and PC Cross-Platform play continuing to unite fans into a unified player base. The initial Street Fighter V purchase is still the only One that consumers need to make to ensure they always have the most up-to-date version of the title. All of the post launch gameplay content, such as the DLC characters in Street Fighter V, is earnable completely free of charge through completing various in-game challenges and receiving earned in-game currency, called fight money. For those who just can't wait to unlock each piece of new content, content can also be obtained instantly using purchased in-game currency.
Wow, that sounds quite promising to me! It's basically SFV: The Complete Game Edition (although the description doesn't make clear if only the 16 initial characters from "vanilla" SFV will be playable from start or they still need to be unlocked/purchased).
But... will it be enough to attract players after all the negative feedback the original SFV got? I'm not sure. I hope it will, though.
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
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| | "Re(2):SFV : Arcade Edition leaked by Amazon" , posted Thu 5 Oct 22:40
quote:
But... will it be enough to attract players after all the negative feedback the original SFV got? I'm not sure. I hope it will, though.
I will entirely depend on whether they actually do marketing around the release or not. MvCI received a shocking anti-marketing campaign, so who knows what Capcom expects there.
The product description on the Amazon page already goes through great length to explain that the re-release does fulfill the original promise of "no need to buy another disk", so that's a good start.
Since it's possible to get the current game+S1+S2 for around 40 bucks nowadays, I wonder if that will be all they'll add, or whether they'll throw S3 in as well to push people over the edge. Since I guess Sagat and Sakura should be the big additions, it would make sense if they were added to the package one way or the other (and Sakura will probably receive dozens of costumes to buy with real money, so it's important to allow initial access to her to as many people as possible).
Though as you said, Capcom is entirely capable of selling a package with only Ryu, Ken, Alex and FANG and then wonder why the game failed.
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
STM: n/a
CFN: zonepharaoh
| "Re(3):TWO P ADDED OFFICIALLY TO SF5" , posted Fri 6 Oct 08:35
quote:
TWO P .... in the bonus stage.
Holy mackerel! I would like to celebrate the fact that he is now guaranteed for season 3 based purely on the logic of Alex also having been an incidental background character before becoming DLC. Say it with me: "TWO P FOR SEASON THREE, TWO P FOR SEASON THREE, TWO P FOR SE..."
quote:
Why is Two P hanging out on a stage of barrels? Are the barrels filled with salad?
Truly, MMCafe's contribution to maintaining and expanding the vital backstory of this character makes it the single most important Capcom resource on the internet.
quote:
(and Sakura will probably receive dozens of costumes to buy with real money, so it's important to allow initial access to her to as many people as possible).
Hello! Sorry, Iggy. (Not that sorry.)
quote:
Judging from the screenshots at Capcom Unity it appears that Survival Mode has been deleted from the game. This update is already worthwhile.
Hahaha. We've discussed this before, but the AE excitement really underlines again how shockingly little effort and asset-making is required to make a game so much more exciting to people. I say this as someone who spends 99% of his time playing versus, but I still remember the thrill of hearing that favorites like Street Fighter Zero 3, Tekken 3, and Soul Calibur 1 would have such marvelous home editions, bursting with art and fun excuses to play around. The framework for making arcade mode and scanning a bunch of artwork probably costs one tenth of the time and effort no doubt expended on endless "lessons learned" staff meetings following SFV's disastrous beginnings.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| | "Re(5):TWO P ADDED OFFICIALLY TO SF5" , posted Mon 16 Oct 03:06
I'd like some time to play and understand what this guy is like, but for the moment I'm quite happy. He's pretty... normal? by SF standards. No new grounds like Abi and Menat, not trying to reinvent the wheel like Ed, just a good old normal design, with a potentially interesting system, and on top of that he's finally the necessary old master this game lacked. All in all, a good replacement for Gen.
Also, if the side burns or the costume were not enough, the music makes this character feel very 70s. Taken as a whole, the soundtrack of SF5 is all over the place, but if you only listen to the good tunes, it might very well be among the very top of the franchise.
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| | "Re(6):TWO P ADDED OFFICIALLY TO SF5" , posted Mon 16 Oct 13:06
quote:
Taken as a whole, the soundtrack of SF5 is all over the place, but if you only listen to the good tunes, it might very well be among the very top of the franchise.
Which do you think are the really good songs of SFV, and which do you think are the really meh/bad songs of SFV?
Some random thoughts...
Good/Interesting:
- Karin's song sounds like a 90s transplant from SFA2.
- Vega's theme is a re-orchaestrated version with a driving percussion that is almost intrusive in how prominent it is, and seems to take over the melody quite often... but it's powerful
- Ryu's theme is really bombastic
- Rashid's song is great
More Meh:
- Ken's theme is Ken's theme, and it isn't even an unenthusiastic version of it? But I don't seem to care.... Ryu's theme seems to be much more punched up, while Ken's theme seems to play it way safer.
- Cammy's theme adds some noise elements to it, but now it feels like it doesn't have enough edge (had they gone harder in the noise direction), nor does it feel as smoothly melodic. Points for trying, but I don't feel inspired.
That's only a handful of the songs in the game, but that tends to encapsulate my impressions of the songs in the game, that the ones that I feel are "good" or "interesting" are strongly new or go farther in trying to modify something in the original. The "meh" ones are the ones that play it too safe with old themes.
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
STM: n/a
CFN: zonepharaoh
| "Re(7):GOJIRA ADDED OFFICIALLY TO SF5" , posted Mon 16 Oct 14:08
As in SFIV, the character remixes are all pretty terrible, though I like the percussive start to Birdie's quite a lot. But basically, anywhere people have been allowed to do their own thing has generally been better. Interestingly, the more intriguing stages have better music, while the dumber stages (Russia ring, UK, Shadowloo 4 Kings) have the worst music. But forget about them, I'm talking about the best music:
Forgotten Waterfall was the first SFV music I heard, it is Kobayashi Keiki, and it is the best music in a SF game fighting game since Zero 2 or Soul Calibur 3
Frosty Boulevard, while being a dull stage outside of winter, comes to life at Christmas and the music is probably some of the best music period since Zero 2
Kanzuki Beach, Iggy's and my private beach (you may join), has such a sick breakdown at the end
Metro City is ROCK AND ROLLLLLLLLL
Kanzuki Manor still amazes me that it's NOT a Kobayashi Keiki track
A lot of really great work is going into the trailer music which is then never used, Zeku's included. This (undoubtably) Kobayashi Keiki music in the Gouki trailer is MARVELOUS and I wish they used it in-game.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P - THE FOOL  | "Re(7):TWO P ADDED OFFICIALLY TO SF5" , posted Mon 16 Oct 22:24
quote:
Which do you think are the really good songs of SFV, and which do you think are the really meh/bad songs of SFV?
I generally agree with Maou: character themes from previous games are weak or at best "adequate". For starters, Alex's is terrible (which goes well with Alex in SF5 but is also a pity).
Cammy's theme is really bad compared to her original (which is a very good piece of music, though it doesn't really fit the character I think). The English Manor's version is much improved, though it has its share of issues.
Actually, Dictator has a similar problem to Cammy: his SF2 theme was fitting for the Thailand stage, and for the more restrained Katô-inspired Dic of the game. However, once the character went full yolo-Wakamoto in Zero3, it became really jarring. Zero3 had the good idea to change the entire OST, and in Vegamoto's case it was for the best. Too bad they didn't make this his official theme in 4 and 5, since the character has become more and more ridiculous. SF5 tries to go the extra mile and reconcile the original theme with his more modern persona, without really managing to pull it off I think. I won't even go into the new Thailand's stage version, some things are better left unsaid.
(Cammy's theme in Zero3 was also very good and hilarious, though it didn't fit the character either so that's a tie).
Like with everything else in SF5, it's when the game explores new ground without getting tied by the past that it is at its best. The background themes Maou chose are a good example, and Rashidooo's theme goes without saying, so let me add a theme very few people have had the chance to hear in-game.
Also, I know many hate her and her music, but I can't help to like Laura's theme. I don't know, it's ridiculous and hilarious and uplifting, so I can see why people who hate the character would hate the song as well. Same goes for her stage. So dumb, I love it.
As much as I hate Ed's hip-hop and Abi's growling, and am indifferent to Kolin's take on Enya, I do like that all three were released in one go. Since the themes in the base game had a bit of a similar rhythm and tempo, these three themes really conveyed the idea of an (almost) all new Season 2 exploring new grounds. I don't understand Menat's song so I won't comment.
Another thing this game aced was Juri's theme. Let's remember that the entire OST of 4 was unmitigated trash with one outstanding exception. So what did they do to the only character from 4 in this game? They took her theme and made it 10 times worse to the point it stops being bad and becomes hilarious. Listening to Juri's SF5 theme is like watching The Room with a group of inebriated friends, which, given the terrible character it's associated with, is perfectly fitting.
------------
Prof: I don't know what's worse between the fact all the marvelous extras in the PS1 version of Jojo were cut from the DC version, or the fact that it was not added to the recent re-release. Instead of selling it only to die-hard fans, they could have touted it a big solo experience for all sorts of players, but I guess that wasn't Capcom's focus at the time, unfortunately.
One of the low-key best things in Jojo was Capcom's excellent choice of voice actors. No offense to Koyasu, but their DIO is the definitive version of this character. Same goes for the VA they picked for 黄金の風. Jojo ASB did its best, but it just doesn't compare. Yes, even Giorno.
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| | "Re(10):TWO P ADDED OFFICIALLY TO SF5" , posted Tue 17 Oct 03:57
quote:
For a character that has that heavy Strider Hiryu reference I am surprised to not see a Copyright for Moto Kikaku.
I've had the whole Moto Kikaku thing explained to me several times, and I still can't remember anything from it.
If they do imply that Zeku founded the Strider... order ? Brigade?, could it be a way to retcon it massively and create a new Strider timeline without having to keep the (c)Moto Kikaku?
I like that his young stance plays Guy-ish, while the old one is Strider-ish. I guess young stance is close and in your face, old works from an farther distance, fishing for an opening. I could never quite understand Gen's stances, and I hope Zeku is as clear as I made his stances up to be.
Also, he means that both Gen and Guy have dropped from the list of potential candidates for the fore-coming seasons, which is a plus in my book. Hakan and Hawk's chances have grown by at least 1,5%!
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| | "Re(9):TWO P ADDED OFFICIALLY TO SF5" , posted Tue 17 Oct 05:45
quote:
Not sure if this is meant to be a cute understatement, because the way in which all of the audio in Capcom's rendition of Jojo was done, from the voices to the sound effects, has basically established what they "ought" to sound like for literally decades since. It is BIZARRELY some of Capcom's most iconic audio work, even if it is more associated with Jojo the property than with the Capcom 2D fighting game for many.
Well, Jojo did have voice acting done before (the first set of OVA on which Kon Satoshi of all people randomly worked) and a bit after (the second set of OVA which I haven't seen). But, yeah, nothing really compares.
I didn't know it was considered as Capcom's most iconic audio work, as I see it as the natural evolution of Vampire's own loud and ominous sound design. I can't think of any Capcom game with that type of sound effects beside the three Vampire and Jojo (the fighting game, as I think 黄金の風, the 5th part game, had a much weaker sound design. The music and VA were great, though).
One of the many reasons Capcom had to put their A-game on the sound design for Jojo was of course Araki's obsession with onomatopoeias, which is obvious now that everything has become a meme but was a much more interesting thing to focus on back then, when pop-culture hadn't caught up with the manga yet.
Moreover, they had to face the impossible question of "what kind of sound is WRYYYYYYYYY". They could have ignored it and focused on the other famous quotes from DIO, but they didn't, and went as far as making a different version of DIO that could not not say "WRYYYYYYY" at some point.
And honestly, sorry Koyasu, but your "WRYYYYY" is just bad. It's sad. Capcom had the only answer.
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| PSN: Gojira_X
XBL: Gojiraaa
Wii: n/a
STM: n/a
CFN: Gojira
| "Re(8):TWO P ADDED OFFICIALLY TO SF5" , posted Tue 17 Oct 06:07
The jazz origins of the SF soundtrack have already been discussed here but it really is great how tracks like Karin's theme and Zeku's disco sound so appropriate to SF lore. I'd love to hear a de-make of Zeku's theme with QSound samples.
As for the character themes, I don't think a detailed breakdown is necessary but something I don't think I've mentioned here is that I love the fact that regardless of whether the themes are "good" or "bad" the initial buildup for every theme is timed with the start of the match. For example, try watching a Ryu vs. Ryu match where they don't skip the intro, the music builds up and starts in earnest around when "FIGHT" is declared, and that's consistent for 90% of the default character themes. It's a nice bit of serendipitous sync you don't hear much these days. Too bad they seemed to kind of forget about this for the DLC character themes.
I actually really like a lot of the music in SFV, even some of the "bad" tracks, so I'm not terribly into criticizing it. That said...
THE TRAINING MUSIC IS THE WORST THING EVER. Why does it repeat a single note over and over and over. Why is it so short. Why is it so slow. Why does it not have a 2nd round/ critical/ finish variation like the other stage music. Why. Is it a joke? Was this done intentionally so that people wouldn't want to play every single match on the training stage like in SF4 and UMvC3? I don't know but I legitimately hate it far more than any other music in the game.
quote:
Also, I know many hate her and her music, but I can't help to like Laura's theme. I don't know, it's ridiculous and hilarious and uplifting, so I can see why people who hate the character would hate the song as well. Same goes for her stage. So dumb, I love it.
I've gotten used to it but it bothers me enough that I still can't appreciate it fully. It's not that I think it's terrible or badly-done at all, what frustrates me is that I can see what it was going for and it's close but it's not quite there. Like if Fukasawa was going for a Jet Set Radio vibe to the theme then he needed to take it further, throw in some voice samples and go all Hideki Naganuma on it. Maybe even up the tempo a little. At least then I think most people would finally "get it." Her stage and story themes are easier to understand because they employ more familiar Latin rhythms (that first round stage music especially is every Habanera beat these days).
As for Juri's theme, this probably sounds weird but every time I hear it all I see is an obnoxiously tight closeup of Juri's ass banging back and forth. Like it never changes, just loops the same 1 second gif over and over and over. That's the laughable depth the theme has for me. At least the SF4 theme tried a little harder to encapsulate her character, while the SFV one strikes me as a fetish in music form. Which is perhaps suitable since Juri has become highly fetishized by the fanbase.
quote:
Nobuo Tobita (aka Zeta Gundam's Kamille Bidan)
Thanks, I really need to do something about my kanji someday.
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
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CFN: zonepharaoh
| "Re(10):TWO P ADDED OFFICIALLY TO SF5" , posted Wed 18 Oct 08:48
quote:
OH YOU HAD TO BRING UP SONNY CHIBA in this thread didn't you
I, it's so perfect! And yes, you bet I will be hosting a ricketly lagfest the weekend after this for all comers! We did okay between three continents last time. Saturday AM EST/Saturday afternoon Europe/Saturday night Japan most likely.
Zeku's trailer theme is truly a treasure. Thanks, Chaz! Let's up the ante with Kobayashi's divine, Soul Calibur-exciting Gouki trailer theme. I would pay good fight money to have these themes in-game.
quote:
THE TRAINING MUSIC IS THE WORST THING EVER.
The Grid has always been a great indicator of the approximate craziness of your opponent. Like, if they have the Grid set as their stage for online matches, you know that A) they are a psychopath because that music will drive anyone mad, and B) they are also a psychopath because no one who is actually any fun would trade a pretty background for a hitbox measurement system. I mean, I wouldn't mind if it were Daigo or Infiltration, but I always experience a little shiver when it comes up otherwise, and hope to leave/lose the match as soon as possible before they figure out who I am.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| | "Re(1):TheCoolKid is the people's champ" , posted Mon 20 Nov 06:50:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWSrQ2ZOnq4
New trailer with too many things happening and not enough explanations. Nash having flash kick back? Psycho Crusher? Menat going bullet hell? Also I'm sorry, I'm not an expert but I'm pretty sure shurikens don't work like that.
Quite excited for all the new potential in there! I'm curious what characters with very good options now (Necalli, Kolin, Urien, Karin, FANG) will get.
Also, Sakura was teased at the end of the presentation, so I guess she'll be there first before Sagat?
EDIT
And new costumes!
https://prtimes.jp/main/html/rd/p/000000006.000029995.html
Litteral ice queen Kolin is great, Birdie's nostalgia looks perfect (though it might be weird in motion), Menat stole Juri's position as "that girl no one plays but has all the horny teenagers buy her costumes for reasons", and Chunli gets 25 new ones because Chunli.
[this message was edited by Iggy on Mon 20 Nov 21:01] |
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but see you need to do a throw break I am sure the charged move will come out. 
button. 
then
