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| Micky Kusanagi
127th Post
  
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|  "Re(6):SFV part 4: A Street Named Desire" , posted Mon 4 Apr 01:39  
In the event I create a MMC Lagfest lounge, how should I set rounds, time and victory? My opinion is leaving all default -3, 99, first to 1-, but I'm open to suggestions in case. As for the other options, I'll enable character select whenever I personally set the lounge, because it's supposed to be fun -servers and lag permitting LOL- and I don't wanna restrict fellow players' choice to their main. I'll always set our beloved password. I saved all the listed users in Maou's post as favorites in the game, feel free to do the same with me if you like ^^
As for Alex, if he wasn't unlocked on March 30, I'd have thought it was an April's Fools xD After messing around with him a bit in training mode I can say I find him as fun as I remember him from SFIII.
I'd like to take a topic back from the previous thread: Tai-Pan, did you beat Ryu's 10th trial in the end? I couldn't find a way out for the life of me, but finding help on Youtube was piece of cake. You must walk a step forward before the b+HK axe kick. Also, I think I spent an hour on Karin's 6th trial...having to add a "down" input before pressing K for the last Seppo is something I would have never thought of on my own in all honesty.
Ore no...kachi da!!
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| Spoon 3304th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
    
     
 
| "Re(7):SFV part 4: A Suplex Named Desire" , posted Mon 4 Apr 07:45:
General observation:
Character's head's angle themselves so that they "look" at each other in the face. This sometimes has funny consequences, like Alex looking like he's bobbing his head to music if he gets right up next to an idle Ken and walks forward. It's really funny.
Guard-crushing/breaking moves like Ryu's charged fireballs in V-Trigger and Alex's charged clothesline put the opponent in a state where damage taken starting from guard broken state is severely state. This is a legitimately good idea! They can tune guard breaking moves in a way that makes them more reliable, but by toning down the damage you get from them lets them not be totally unbalanced with their newfound reliability. This idea gets a thumbs up from me.
Some Alex observations:
Alex's standing LP and MP animations have been swapped. This makes him more resemble Ryu's current animation set with standing LP and MP. In any case, this elbow now hits more people when they crouch, including Chun. Alex whiffing stupid things against crouching Chun in 3S really sucked. On that same note, his jumping MP and LP animations are kind of switched as well: his jumping MP is definitely like his old jumping LP animation, while his jumping LP retains that horizontal chop nature but is a more horizontal and different animation from before.
Canceling from his standing LP seems unusually hard. I can't do it with any consistency with a PS3 TE stick.
His flying cross-chop is a lot more useful now, having better on-hit properties that allow you to combo out of it.
His forward+MP chop which used to be a poke/anti-air is now an overhead, while his standing HP is now a cancellable move that isn't an overhead. Standing HP becoming cancelling meant that something had to give.
EX Flash Elbow is TERRIBLE on block. According to an online listing, it's -10F (!!!) on block. In 3S, this move wasn't advantageous on block, but it was generally very safe on block due to both its pushback and it being like -6F. In SFV, it doesn't seem to push him as far back, and so is quite punishable.
Jumping LK is his cross-up. The good thing about this is that he has a go-to move for cross-ups.
His jumping MK has had its animation modified in a way that makes it way less cool. The pose it ends with is still like the old 3S one, but how he gets there has changed significantly. In 3S, he swings his leg in a circular arc in front of him. In SFV, he thrusts his leg out straight. The thrust kick makes it seem more like R.Mika's jumping MK, and while I can totally see it seeming like a more efficient motion, it doesn't have the unusual grace of the 3S one.
3S reference
SFV reference
His throw whiff animation! ARGH!
I can understand it having a motion which more resembles the other characters (reaching out with one arm and getting nothing) so that it's easier for a new player to immediately understand, but in 3S Alex and Hugo had really uniquely different regular throw whiff animations that were really interesting. Hugo looks at his hands and sees that they're empty. Alex JUST TWITCHES HIS FOREAMS/HANDS. This is hella cool for all kinds of different reasons: it's like he doesn't fully commit his body into the throw whiff the way others do, the little twitch sometimes almost seems like a fake, the subtler motion makes it harder for opponents to punish (they have less to go on to realize it was a whiff), and is a tiny thing that just makes him seem like a more dangerous and more capable grappler. It was a really subtle animation for what ought to be a failure state that winds up making him seem more cool. That is incredibly brilliant! For contrast, in 3S Chun puts her whole body into the whiff leading with her arm, and her face is full of surprise at the whiff. Urien and Yun/Yang use both arms, and Yun and Yang almost tip over at the failure. Elena just spins on the spot and isn't even surprised at the miss, it's just another motion in her dance. Alex's old whiff animation made him seem more dangerous. I will miss that animation.
The close MK knee is now gone. There's nothing to replace it. I'm sad, but functionally the improvements to standing MP (links to other things on hit, hits crouchers reliably, cancellable, etc.) would've left it in a spot where it's purpose wouldn't be well-defined.
HP Flash Chop no longer puts foes in a back-turned state with enormous hit stun. So no more stuff like HP chop -> combo. The backturned suplex is now chained from it as the only thing you get from it. This makes the use of HP chop a little more straight forward and make it not detract from the heavy counter hits of the game, especially given that counter-hits were how the move landed in general in 3S.
MP+MK V-Skill is straight up stolen from Tekken and it's great. Throwing people doesn't consume the power-up, which makes throws even more viable since people are scared of being hit. Counter hits having big hit-stun bonuses and allowing combo paths that you don't normally get from a regular hit makes the immediate results of this power-up easily understood and appreciated and more threatening in ways more interesting than just "next hit does 20% more damage". I really like this change, both from how it leverages existing game system and how it fits with the character's gameplan.
His stomp is significantly less safe on block, which is probably for the best. However, it's also slower on startup! The move generally more awkward to use than before, and it made me think, "oh, I guess they want me to punish fireballs with headbutt"... except headbutt is EVEN SLOWER THAN THE NEW STOMP! Good gracious! For reference, the fastest of the new stomp/headbutt is LK stomp, which is 27F startup. 3S Stungun Headbutt is 24F startup, and the slowest of his old stomps was 26F startup, with the fastest of his old stomps being 23F startup. New headbutt is as fast as 30F (EX) and as slow as 44F (HP). 44F is REALLY SLOW.
Cancelling neutral normals into either of his d,u charge moves seems hard to do. I'm not sure why.
[this message was edited by Spoon on Mon 4 Apr 07:46] |
| Tai-Pan 518th Post
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| "Re(7):SFV part 4: A Street Named Desire" , posted Tue 5 Apr 00:47
quote:
As for Alex, if he wasn't unlocked on March 30, I'd have thought it was an April's Fools xD After messing around with him a bit in training mode I can say I find him as fun as I remember him from SFIII.
I'd like to take a topic back from the previous thread: Tai-Pan, did you beat Ryu's 10th trial in the end? I couldn't find a way out for the life of me, but finding help on Youtube was piece of cake. You must walk a step forward before the b+HK axe kick. Also, I think I spent an hour on Karin's 6th trial...having to add a "down" input before pressing K for the last Seppo is something I would have never thought of on my own in all honesty.
As an old time Alex fan, he is still fun to use. Now, as Spoon described, he is missing certain details that made him Alex (IMO). When using SFV Alex, I get the feeling I'm playing with a younger and dumber brother. He doesn't feel as threatening and dangerous as his SF3 self. But then again, maybe he wasn't yet. Even on Story Mode he is portrayed as a completely different person.
I don't like his new face either. The designers nailed another old time favorite (Mika). Yet they failed to portrait Alex's essence.
I'm having a hard time with specific trials (including Ryu's 10th). I'm obviously missing something, such as those specific inputs that you mentioned. But I refuse to watch youtube videos for help; so I guess I will continue suffering. BTW, is it me or is the timing for some combos completely arbitrary? I get the feeling that some characters' input timing is ruled by completely different set of rules.
"Those who follow the path of a warrior must be ready to die in order to stand for one's convictions live for one's convictions die for one's convictions"
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| Micky Kusanagi
130th Post
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| "Re(8):SFV part 4: A Suplex Named Desire" , posted Tue 5 Apr 20:57:
Spoon: I played a bit of training mode with Alex soon after reading your post, and seeing Alex moving his head like that was absolutely hilarious x'D Thank you for the breakdown, it's very useful both on the gameplay side and the artistic one.
Tai-Pan: I see, I tried Ryu's 10th trial about 10-20 times on my own instead, then I was like "fuck everything, I need help" xD I don't know what's with certain timings, but they remind me of the infamous SFIV one-frame links.
Gojira: I'm trying to memorize move names -I think they could be useful when reading official material from Capcom, they look fond of using names instead of notations in their Capcom Unity posts-, so instead of switching to notations I read the move lists. It's irritating, but I think it'll prove useful when April update details show up. Those target combo names are so confusing indeed x'D
Ore no...kachi da!!
[this message was edited by Micky Kusanagi on Tue 5 Apr 21:00] |
| Mosquiton 2140th Post
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| "Re(10):SFV part 4: A Suplex Named Desire" , posted Thu 7 Apr 06:40
quote:
I'm absolutely lazy when it comes to trial modes in games. The second I see a combo and decide "Nah, I'm not going to do that during a fight" I immediately stop trying. Sometimes trial modes can be good for showing you just what your character and the game engine are capable of but when a trial becomes too complicated and impractical it becomes too much hassle for my limited skills at execution.
I think I already mentioned I was disappointed in the very basic implementation of the tutorial elements. Why couldn't they do something just a little bit practical....
Okay so this scrub Ken just whiffed a Shoryuken, but you don't have any CA bar or anything. Trial 1 - Hit him with a crush counter and do this basic combo to punish. (By the way, this is how your character can do a crush counter.)
Trail 2 - Now same scenario, but you have one bar of meter... hit him with this slightly more difficult/more damaging combo to punish.
Man, this Ken will not stop mashing out DPs! You now have full CA bar and V-Trigger. Trial 3 do this max damage combo to inflict 45% damage and take the round. *game now fakes a disconnect to simulate a round three rage quit*
Now you have valuable experience that's applicable to the game! Then maybe the game could also offer some insight on the weaknesses of your chosen character....
Okay so the character you just picked... did you know this move is really unsafe on block? You're now playing a mirror match. He's going to keep doing this move without thinking (maybe an unsafe slide that is really tempting to overuse) so blow that shit up and think about how dangerous it is to just throw this out.
Lvl 1 - basic punish
Lvl 2 - intermediate punish
Lvl 3 - max damage punish.... do you see how you don't want to be throwing this out randomly?
Other obvious stuff would be challenges that cover multiple anti-air options for your chosen character (did you ever think of dashing under the attack?), dealing with attempted cross-ups after a hard knockdown, learning how to block/avoid damage from Mika and Karin mixups rather than just freaking out... etc. etc.
Honestly they could have just put YouTube links they grabbed from the beta and had a better tutorial experience than they do now (despite a lot of the information being outdated). Of course watching a video just isn't the same as playing the game, which is obvious to everyone.
I don't have a ton of time but I would like to learn/become familiar with more characters, and I'd rather spend my time playing the game than doing research on the internet and whacking on a training dummy. I have to imagine there might be other people that feel the same way.
Of course, I guess when you think about it, company shareholders don't really need tutorials... they don't even play the game! Silly me.
/ / /
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| Micky Kusanagi
133th Post
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| "Re(1):Re: SFV part 4: A Suplex Named R.Mika" , posted Fri 8 Apr 01:20:
Wonderful article, this woman is CRAZY. And I mean it in a very positive way, her devotion warms your heart. Thank you Maou!!
I cleared all the trials for all the remaining characters while waiting for the latest KOFXIV teaser, and while they reminded the for nth time how disgusting my execution is, I had lots of fun. Pointless, spoiler-protected chat about my trials experience ahead :D
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
I don't remember all the trials properly because I was doing them sparsely and then I had a sudden burst of willpower between yesterday and today, which allowed me to clear trials like crazy, but I'd say Rashid is the second character I had the most fun with, it could have been Karin but she requires too much execution, so she's not gonna become my sub, sadly.
I had a blast with Nash too, but teleport techniques give me serious headaches for some reason.
I enjoy Vegamoto the most when Psycho Crusher is only available as a super and I'd go as far as choosing SFV Vega as my favorite incarnation of him, I love Psycho Inferno and his totally-not-KOF-inspired V-trigger property of chaining a special, an EX and another EX in one majestic string. Too bad this very feature made me sweat quite a bit xD
Chun Li's combos are ballet performances, that's all I'm willing to say about her. So graceful.
I'm biased about Ken so he's obviously the first character I took trials of, and his trials are my favorite ones LOL. A "server maintenance in 10 minutes" warning popped up as soon as I started his trials, and I was getting so nervous during his last trial because servers were just about to close...according to my message log, I cleared it with less than 1 minute to go before servers closed x'D
End of Spoiler
Ore no...kachi da!!
[this message was edited by Micky Kusanagi on Fri 8 Apr 01:23] |
| Spoon 3307th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Re: SFV part 4: A Suplex Named R.Mika" , posted Fri 8 Apr 07:56
quote:
(*) My guess for the "real" answer is that it was intentionally designed to be overlong, frustrating, time consuming, and semi-random. Why? Because it exists both to be a pure time-sink grind to greatly inflate the single player "play time" (made even worse with having to replay Survival for each costume) and as a way to gate large chunks of Fight Money where the average player will never obtain it. Why is the latter important? Because Ono had previously made a point that people would be able to earn enough Fight Money in-game to buy stuff; he just never said it would be practical or realistic to do so. Heck, it even had the third benefit of making people happy for the option to pay for color unlocks in the shop.
Welcome to F2P, enjoy your stay!
I'm not sure which would work better, making the Hell survival colors cost more premium currency than any other color, or the same amount of premium currency. One rationalization is that people will bang their heads against this input reading wall of doom, and then when they see that they can just buy it for the same cost as any other, they'll spring for it. Another goes that if it costs extra, having tasted how hard it is to get, they'll be more willing to pay more, especially since having it would be a symbol of prestige.
It would be really funny to me if there was a bonus background stage of a small, luxurious, antiquated place. It would be called.... FM Towns. It will have strangely few background characters in it.
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| Spoon 3316th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Re: SFV part 4: A Suplex Named R.Mika" , posted Sun 10 Apr 04:07:
I have a theory that the Alex vs. Alex in SFV is a curious match because Alex completely lacks the tools to deal with Alex once Alex gets in. There's no parry to save him, he has no invincible reversal outside of super, and most importantly, Alex's fastest normal is 4F, and as Viscant describes, being at +3F with Alex enables all of Alex's mixups against characters with 3F jabs. But since Alex's fastest move is 4F, there exist even more options against Alex. For instance, any time Alex is made to block Alex's own standing jab or standing strong at close range, it's a command throw mixup that Alex cannot mash jab to beat. Holding up and guessing wrong (i.e. Alex pressed attack instead of throw, for certain buttons, anyway) is going to result in Alex getting a full combo on Alex since neutral/backwards jumps have 4F startup (3F + 4F = 7F, Alex's standing MP has 6F startup).
[this message was edited by Spoon on Wed 13 Apr 06:03] |
| Maou 3116th Post
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| "Re(3):Re: SFV part 4: MMC Championship Editio" , posted Thu 14 Apr 14:52:
quote:
Talking to Maou, one thing became apparent; it's hard to tell who's around on Steam when you're playing on the PS4 and vice versa, so poking people that are online can be a headache.
Yeah, it's interesting: on the PC version, you can see different statuses for PC and PS4 users as in Training, Survival, or the Menu Screen (which I assume means offline). That should be enough, but hard to tell how robust the invitation system is...messages are in sort of an obscure part of the Main Menu, and I don't know if the invitations popped up for those of you playing Survival or Training?
Either way, Japan-to-US play worked well with Ishmael, even if I wanted to blame his destructive Vegamoto on lag rather than his crazy-excellent teleporting powered up Somersault Skull Diver.
No pants Cammy seems strong! Anyone have a tier chart based on their own experiences yet?
Edit: thanks for adding CFN IDs to our profiles, Prof!
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Thu 14 Apr 14:55] |
| Micky Kusanagi
150th Post
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| "Re(3):Re: SFV part 4: MMC Championship Editio" , posted Thu 14 Apr 16:44:
quote:
Micky-- Bottom line, if you're already playing online without troubles, it shouldn't be a worry. Btw did your PS4 tell you that you have NAT3? Otherwise I'm not too sure why went through the trouble since the automatic setting usually works fine.
Sorry Prof I forgot a couple things in that post ^^; I started playing online for real last Tuesday, I almost only get European opponents -my ping is 31ms within Italy- and most matches go well, teleport fests are an exception. The PS4 network test says NAT2. So, I think I'm fine after all. Thank you for your support ^^
Capcom made a maintenance a couple days back, I was hoping they would officially patch the "previous version" character select bug, but it's more likely they did it to get the game ready for new measures to discourage rage quitters, which is equally good -to prevent the player select bug, it just takes not to choose Alex as your default character.
EDIT: I made a disturbing find about survival mode: Capcom reduced the fight money amount you get on completion, at least for Alex. For every character I cleared before the March update, it was 6000 on easy and 10000 on normal; for Alex it was 4000 on easy and 9000 on normal. I'm about to try and clear normal survival with a character I still haven't cleared with...hope rewards for old characters haven't changed. Unless there's something about supplements purchase that influences your rewards...I've become completely careless as for what to buy after a stage because of how bad this mode is getting on my nerves.
EDIT 2: normal survival cleared with Balrog, 9000 fight money. What the fuck are those guys smoking?
Ore no...kachi da!!
[this message was edited by Micky Kusanagi on Fri 15 Apr 04:09] |
| Micky Kusanagi
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| "Re(6):Re: SFV part 4: MMC Championship Editio" , posted Fri 15 Apr 04:16:
Baines: that's exactly what I suspect, and before the March update, I was afraid that Capcom could do it. By the way, I had made a big mistake in my previous post -"10000 on hard" and "9000 on hard", it's "10000 on normal" and "9000 on normal" instead-, you can still see it in Ishmael's quote LOL.
Now I'm MAD. How could the game fucking pit me against players who have double the LP than me or are 10000 ranks above me? The matchmaking turns into shit as soon as you get Super Bronze. I'll turn ranked OFF as soon as I get Super Bronze again -I'm 907 now-, my online activity will be CASUAL ONLY until I get on par with players like those who destroyed my rank. Doesn't SFV have a system that understands your skill level after you play a certain amount of matches? Looks like it isn't working at all for me.
By the way, I know Maou's directions for the Cafe lounge suggest to only invite people whose status is training, but I'd be glad if you guys invited me to the lounge no matter what mode you see me online. Come on, you'll get a good laugh at my (lack of) skills xD
Ore no...kachi da!!
[this message was edited by Micky Kusanagi on Fri 15 Apr 17:53] |
| Micky Kusanagi
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| "Re(8):Re(10):Re(10):SFV part 4: Guile's meme" , posted Thu 21 Apr 17:25
I'll gladly say it again, that artist is so brilliant both in art style and setting ideas.
I'm a bit ashamed to say this, but I could have made a huge mistake about the Fight Money thing some days ago: if my research is right, it's just a matter of having raised characters' experience level by watching their tutorials, which weren't available when I made my first survival runs.
For example, Easy Survival actually nets you 2000 FM only, any other FM reward is for leveling up and separate from that. When I saw two separate FM rewards after each survival playthrough, I thought the SFV servers weren't able to give more than 5000 FM in a single reward and it was a weird way to give you more than 5000 at once -I'm prejudiced about those servers x'D-, but it was me jumping to conclusions, you get separate rewards from survival and experience, and watching tutorials scrambled my progression for those characters I hadn't completed survival with yet LOL.
Sorry for alarming you :P
Ore no...kachi da!!
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| Spoon 3332th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):Red Bull Kumite... Re Tokido v Infiltra" , posted Mon 25 Apr 04:46
quote:
The grand finals of this tournament is, once again, Tokido vs. Infiltration.
Tokido fighting from the loser's side, has so far managed to take 2 games from Infiltration in the grand finals, which is the best he's done so far. This is absolutely the premier rivalry of this game so far.
Infiltration wins! Again! 3-1 in the reset!
At this point, Tokido has become the #1 jobber, and should Daigo ever meet Infiltration in a match it will be the hypest thing ever. Daigo's got the whole "training in secret" thing going on, Infiltration's got the "defeating everybody and the #1 challenger over and over again", and Tokido's got the "I CAN'T BEAT INFILTRATION" thing going on. This is the greatest angle, no kayfabe even needed.
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| Spoon 3349th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Guile the People: pumped up kicks" , posted Sun 8 May 02:07:
A random thought looking at SFV Guile:
There are a lot of re-used frames in fighting games, notably in the older 2D ones because of time/money/memory budgets. Guile is a great example of a great amount of reuse:
- the famous upside down kick is his jump animation combined with the hitting frame of his d.MK
- d.HK is d.LK followed by d.MK
- j.HK is d.MK
- j.LK and j.MK are mostly the same sprite, with the difference being his left leg (extended or not), with the startup frame just being one of the jump animation frames.
(reference)
So an interesting thing about Guile's kicks is that all three of his crouching kicks are EXTREMELY horizontal, as well as his j.HK and his upside-down kick. You see these moves often enough (hey, you see upside-down kick all the time when you and everybody else is terrible at the game and mashing away!), and they really become part of what you remember about how the character is because of this distinctive aspect of how the character moves. His b/f.HK step-kick introduced in ST is another incredibly horizontal kick. I remember trying to goofily do them decades ago and wondering "how does Guile make his leg go so straight? How does he spin without falling over? How come his moves look so cool?"
As time has passed and budget has increased and 3D models have made animating moves a bit easier, Guile's gained a lot more variety. SF4 was very much a SF2 homage, and as such Guile moved quite like SF2. (reference) But you'll notice that they added some subtle changes to d.HK to make it seem stronger: he torques harder on the second hit compared to d.MK, and what he does with his outward arm bigger to help sell how much stronger this motion/attack is.
Some changes were made to his jumping kicks in SF4, too. (reference) His torso turn is reversed for j.LK, in a pose more resembling his crouch block animation and almost identical to the other great western military wrestler of history. The pose of j.MK is like before, but a bit more horizontal, but j.HK is now TOTALLY DIFFERENT! It's no longer a straight copy of any other kick he has, and has a big downward angle.
In SFV, Guile's kicks are now prominently downward angled. Most of his crouching kicks no longer are perfectly horizontal, with his d.HK making me think of T.Hawk's because of the first of hit... but the second hit of Guile's d.HK has that perfectly straight, horizontal leg. His dramatic/weird j.MK is now his j.HK, but it regains its downward angle compared to SF4. Like Alex's j.MK, Guile's d.MK which used to have a circular motion is now a forward thrusting motion. The more downward angled kicks to me were something that Nash/Charlie brought in SFA.
He also saw some changes to his punches: his standing MP is now exclusively one move, which looks like his old close standing MP (the odd hook punch), rather than the singular and curious upward punch where he leans forward. His neutral standing HP (which was formerly his close standing HP, and was kind of like his d.HP) is no longer a fully extended upward punch.
The intro of his Sonic Hurricane makes me think of his SF2 Movie sonic boom.
There's a certain uniformity of motion that I think is very fitting for Guile, given his straightforward military nature. Some of his poses are somewhere between oddly fabulous body builder pose (the way he looks like he's flexing during his SF2 j.LK/j.MK, or his standing block animation), orthodox (a lot of his straight punches, his boxing-like stance, his suplex), and just plain "wat" (his jump animation, his flash kick). It's an interesting and odd collection of movements! I think that there's still plenty of interesting-ness and oddness in his SFV moveset, and I don't really think I can effectively critique their effectiveness as a whole...
... but they are different.
[this message was edited by Spoon on Tue 10 May 06:05] |
| Maou 3129th Post
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| "Re(1):Guile the People: pumped up kicks" , posted Mon 9 May 22:25:
quote:
Spoon on Guile
Spoon, this is really interesting analysis, as usual. We must have a Cafe duel soon, if only so that you can destroy all of us with your mind without moving a finger, like a true master martial artist.
Chaz, great note on sales. In a way, I'm not surprised that such as joyously fun and pretty game like Marvel 2 still sells. I'm always happy to play that goofy thing, and I don't even like superheroes. Put another way, I'm (almost) surprised that Capcom doesn't have the Zero series in constant re-release (who the hell is going to play SFZero Collection with me on PS2?), but I guess there's no point in creating a rival for SFV online. SFIII doesn't count, of course.
quote:
Just 400k more sales and it'll reach SFxTK!
Hahahahahaha    
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Mon 9 May 22:27] |
| Iggy 10226th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P Requiem
| "Re(5):SF5 sales" , posted Mon 9 May 23:50
quote:
Just 400k more sales and it'll reach SFxTK!
Not exactly a great achievement, is it?
Still, it's better than not even reaching that, I guess.
You're right and the game underperformed.
However, the fact SF5 probably cost far less to make than SFxT (massively outsourced, no rights to Bamco, Sony helping out, only 2 platforms instead of 4, much smaller marketing effort, no unnecessary expenses such as FMV for 40+characters...) hopefully makes it largely more profitable.
Jokes about the Vita aside, I was expecting the loss of the X-Box crowd to hurt them far worse than it did.
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| nobinobita 1596th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "SF5 has 8 frames of input lag on PS4" , posted Tue 10 May 00:22:
It's been proven that Street Fighter V has 8 frames of input lag on PS4, the tournament standard:
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/mar/15/street-fighter-5s-input-lag-more-four-times-skullgirls-or-mortal-kombat-x-research-video-battlenonsense-eye-opening/
What do you all think? Now I'm not a competitive player by any means. I don't remember my frame data. I can't play at a high level. But I can tell you that as an animator, 8 frames at 60fps is pretty much the smallest amount of frames in which you can create a smooth action that reads clearly. It's very palpable.
Many are saying that this delay makes it nearly impossible to punish on reaction and neuters the game in many other ways.
For me it explains why SFIV (which also had extreme input lag) and especially SFV feel so gooey and overanimated. From the get go it already feels like you are playing online with lag. I guess this was by design, so that the offline experience isn't that different from the online experience. I wonder if this is going to be a common practice moving forward in other games.
There's some great stuff from Mike Z of Skullgirls fame in the comments section. I'll post a few choice quotes here:
quote:
"It's totally possible to bring input lag down to 3f, yes, as long as the developer is willing to make whatever changes are necessary to do that.
I have been waiting for commentators to get wise to what this much input lag means.
Instead of saying, "Oh, got him too scared to try a punish!"
they should start saying things like
"Since Ken's dash is 15f and his throw is 5f startup, and since average human reaction time is 11f or higher, because of the 8-9f of input lag in SF5 it is humanly impossible to counterpoke or avoid the grab on reaction, rather than anticipation."
or
"Since 11f is at the low end of human reaction time, adding the 8-9f of input lag in this game makes Ken's 22f V-Skill cancel not generally punishable on reaction even by a 3f normal, since 11+8+3 = exactly 22. You have to guess he's going to do it and press the button early."
But you know, those things are much less exciting to say. :^\"
quote:
"Mike_Z said on March 15, 2016 at 4:25 p.m.
Reply @fuffyfaf #52
Removing frames of delay from your game's code is not trivial. It often requires rewriting substantial parts of the engine so that operations happen in a different order, and occasionally requires replacing entire systems. It's unlikely to get fixed."
quote:
"Mike_Z said 5 hours, 39 minutes ago
Reply @Cagar #24
> My biggest fear regarding this is that Capcom seriously balanced the game around having this much input lag. frown emoticon
You can tell they did balance it with that much lag in mind, though.
Ryu's overhead is 20f in SF5, whereas it was 17f in SF4 and 14f in Third Strike. Since it has the same purpose in all those games, as a standing overhead, you know they placed it at the barely-reactable boundary - which is vastly slower in SF5 due to the extra input lag."
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Tue 10 May 00:41] |
| chazumaru 1679th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(6):SF5 sales" , posted Tue 10 May 03:13:
quote:
I wonder if any SNK fighting games have ever sold over a million. I guess 2d fighters that weren't part of the SF2 series have always been pretty niche.
I think the only one who'd have a chance to pass the million sales threshold is KOF'97 OnLine on smartphones because of the Chinese and closeby Asian markets. It's a huge success, right? It might have passed it already, for all I know. Is it still sold at a very cheap price or did they switch the business model to something like free game + subscription for online play?
Otherwise, the biggest mainstream hit for a SNK fighting game is probably KOF'95 which is one of the most produced Neo Geo cartridges for arcades and home, is most almost certainly the best selling Neo Geo CD game (it sold something north of 160k in Japan alone), then sold very well on Saturn (257k) and PS1 (145k) in Japan. On those numbers alone, it's pretty safe to assume it landed around 500k shipments in Japan.
Then take into account it got a worldwide shipment on both PS1 and Saturn which probably included a MG deal, received a GB port (if you are nice enough to accept that one in the mix), and got featured both on Virtual Console and Game Archives. I am not sure how much all that is, but it adds up. I might be undershooting some Takara ports in the SFC era but I am pretty sure none of them came close to KOF95.[*]
On the other hand, just to give you an idea, Capcom Vs. SNK 2 shipped slightly more than 400.000 copies in Japan alone.
[*] Now that I think of it, it's unfair and stupid to single out SFC ports when I combine all versions of KOF95. If you add up all versions of Fatal Fury 2, Fatal Fury Special and Samurai Spirits, there is a good possibility these three games passed a million sales.
Même Narumi est épatée !
[this message was edited by chazumaru on Tue 10 May 13:01] |
| Mosquiton 2154th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):SF5 has 8 frames of input lag on PS4" , posted Tue 10 May 04:44
quote:
Here's a simple explanation for why I think there's so much input latency.
It takes time for prediction and results to happen.
In the offline experience, you are used to a certain amount of delay (here, 8f) before anything happens from a button press. You might not be aware of it consciously, but it's a feeling that gets ingrained. Those 8F are totally not needed in the offline mode, but the purpose of their existence is online.
In the online experience, those 8F are used to cover for the time it takes for the communications of gamestate and inputs to be transmitted and reconciled. If the results arrive before the 8F window ends, no problem: we just stash them and use them later.
So what happens is that the game "feels" the same whether it's online or offline up until the latency and update time exceeds 8F. It doesn't matter whether the button you pressed makes a 10F startup move or a 3F startup move.
That's pretty the theory in play here, eh?
I'm not 100% against the idea of developing a game with consideration for how it will play online. And as you mentioned, in any game it's something you get used to.
I don't think Street Fighter V feels bad, but obviously the amount of latency will impact someone's ability to do something on reaction. I can understand the concerns people have.
/ / /
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| nobinobita 1597th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(9):SF5 sales" , posted Tue 10 May 17:36:
quote:
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if Garospe or Samurai Spirits ended up being the best selling game (and managed to reach a million sales worldwide), especially with the SFC and Mega Drive ports that sold like crazy back then. SamSpi GB was also a huge commercial hit as well.
That being said, do you know/remember whether he was referring to revenue (from the arcades) or specifically in terms of copies sold? I could see an old school SNK boss be more interested to show off the revenue generated in arcades rather than the plain number of home conversion copies sold.
(I might be repeating myself here but) I was really surprised recently that a couple of 30-something Japanese colleagues who show zero interest in the current SNK and modern fighting games could mimic all the characters SFX from Garospe on queue (provided they are drunk enough). That game was clearly a big deal back then.
I also wonder how the royalty deal was structured with Takara, Saurus, Sun and anyone who gave a shot at the ports.
That's a good point. Back then arcades were pretty ubiquitous. Even if most gamers didn't own the games at home, they would have had at least a passing familiarity with stuff like Samurai Shodown and Fatal Fury from arcades (which also existed at theaters, pizza huts, bowling alleys, laundramats etc). I guess it's hard to judge a Fighting Game's popularity by console port sales alone.
Also as far as brand recognition goes, millions of people throughout Asia love SNK, but probably primarily know their stuff through bootlegs. SNK was finally able to capitalise on this with King of Fighters 98 Mobile, which was no 1 in China:
http://dreamcancel.com/2015/10/29/the-king-of-fighters-98-ol-launches-at-the-top-in-app-store-rankings/
^This has got to be the most widely distributed (what is the word for this? I can't say "best setlling" since it's f2p) and profitable SNK game ever.
Also apparently the KOF97 Doyou Cup in Shanghai is the most widely spectated fighting game tournament ever, with over half a million views online.
http://dreamcancel.com/2014/12/21/kof-97-douyu-cup-becomes-one-of-the-most-spectated-fighting-game-tournament-in-history-with-500000-peak-viewers/
This is far in excess of any Evo or Capcom cup tournament. Half a million is a far cry from the 32 million people who tuned in for the LoL World Championships, but it's still really impressive and can probably go way up for future events.
If they play their cards right, King of Fighters could possibly go on to be more popular than Street Fighter 2 has ever been. Maybe not as culturally/historically significant as a brand, but definitely with more people playing and watching.
quote:
SamSpi GB was also a huge commercial hit as well.
Oh god I loved that port so much! They did a fantastic job! The game was very playable and the sprite art was awesome! Without those great Takara gameboy ports there might never have been a Pocket Fighter!
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Tue 10 May 17:42] |
| Maou 3131th Post
PSN: zonepharaoh
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "SFV part 4: A Rugal Reborn" , posted Thu 12 May 11:36
quote:
I walked through the rain to get to work today when I could have stayed home and gotten whupped by Rugal in SF5.
Shoot, me too! Years later, a common question people will ask, akin to other tragedies: "Do you remember where you were when you failed to battle Rugal online?" Rugal, Red Falcon, is your CFN the same as your PSN ID?
Also, I don't hear much about the next character...maybe after the botched store having to offer Guile for free, they're begging off until it actually makes sense. Other scenario: the store never happens, and we're stuck with only Guile (oh, and Alex) forever. 
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| Iggy 10228th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P Requiem
| "Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):SFV part 4: A Street Reb" , posted Fri 13 May 01:26
quote:
Sorry, I meant Toshinden is a franchise that would be welcome back BY ME any day... then again, as I said in a previous post, I like many franchises that most players probably hate (Fighters' Destiny, Flying Dragon, Mace: The Dark Age, Power Stone...).
I agree with the limited appeal of the other names, but I have never met anyone who actively dislikes Power Stone, let alone hate it. At worse it was a mild "ah yeah, that weird game with the crazy levels".
Power Stone is probably my nº1 franchise I'd like Capcom to revisit, before Rockman, Vampire and others, because I'm almost confident they would probably not fuck it up too badly and even eventually have a good chance of making something potentially good out of it perhaps.
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| chazumaru 1690th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):SFV part 4: A Street Reb" , posted Fri 13 May 11:05
quote:
Did the Wii title have any relation at all to Battle Arena Toshinden? The only connections that I recall were that both games had the word "Toshinden" in their title and that they shared the same publisher.
Beyond that, they had different styles, different developers, different characters, and different settings. They seemed to be two completely different game series.
Well, that's what failed reboots do for you. Not a single character returned but/because every new character was a "spiritual successor". Eiji Shinjō became Tōji Shindō, Sofia became Sylvia, Eris became Lilith etc. I get the idea but, in practice, it made if feel more like the game was a Hong Kong-made copyright-slaloming copy rather than a true heir to the series. They don't even share the same title, since the original series was written 闘神伝 when the reboot was written 闘真伝 (imagine something like "the true Tōshinden starts here"). At least, that part held up to the "stupid pun" tradition of the series. The sad part is that it is Dream Factory's last known game. What a way to go...
I agree with Iggy that Power Stone has kept a stronger reputation than the other titles that Just a Person mentioned. It's probably deserved, but I think the overall popularity and appreciation of Capcom plays a big role in that. The other series, with the exception of Mace The Dark Age, all came from smaller developers. (You do make me wonder whether Warner Bros owns the rights to Mace the Dark Age. I don't know what happened to it after Midway filed for bankruptcy.)
Même Narumi est épatée !
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| Micky Kusanagi
191th Post
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Regular Customer
| "Re(2):SFV part 4: A Rugal Reborn" , posted Sun 15 May 22:27
quote:
Yeah, my CFN is Rugalbgood. In fact, since I no longer live in the US, that isn't my PSN ID anymore... www
Side note, does anyone else have this problem? I'm stuck fighting a fucking ocean of bronze and rookier rank players. I get literally one point (to 10 points) for a win, and lose like 180 for a loss. So I'm stuck in gold, I win like 40 matches then lose to a random who is actually not weak and have to work my may back up.
Somebody else noticed it at last. Some weeks ago, I ranted about being assigned 2000+ LP opponents most of the time as soon as I got Super Bronze. I know a number shouldn't be considered a reliable indication of a player's skill, but my level is low enough that anyone with more than 1000 LP is guaranteed give me some serious trouble. This happens both in ranked and casual, and it's seriously getting on my nerves.
Seeing how frustrating this issue is for both skilled and unskilled players, I wonder how come it isn't making the headlines in FGC sites...
Ore no...kachi da!!
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| Spoon 3381th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Fated Retribution: Time Release Reborn?" , posted Fri 3 Jun 01:38
Speaking of a fighting game "crash" is kind of strange when in terms of a fighting game "revival" it was really just a few big things:
- SF4
- MvC3 (possibly greenlighted by the success of SF4)
- introduction of esports/mainstream streaming awareness
It's not as though SF4 prompted a huge influx of higher budget fighting games. SF4 was VERY popular, historically so, but that didn't mean that it led to a surge in all other fighting games. Capcom made two very successful new entries in longstanding fighting game franchises that had been absent of new releases for a looooong time, and players jumped on them. MvC3 stopped getting updated and got dominated by really good players and is now in its twilight. SF4 has been supplanted by SF5, but people are either dissatisfied with the release state of SF5 or no longer feel starved for fighting games after a near-decade of SF4, and haven't turned out.
People have been putting fighting game videos on youtube for literally more than a decade now, but the higher visibility and greater live spectating power brought on by marketing campaigns with an actual budget, social media, and streaming services like twitch brought in a lot of new viewership and a lot of new players willing to show up to events.
Guilty Gear Xrd is one of the best new fighting games to come out in the world post-SF4-vanilla, but it sure didn't light up the sales charts. It had a strong presence at Evo, but I have no idea if that was powered by new players, or just lots of old players who now have the wherewithal years later to actually show up to Evo. Tekken, the other largest fighting game franchise in the world not named Smash, still hasn't released T7 on consoles (wtf?).
So is it a fighting game crash, or just an SF crash (no pun to the delightful Korean tournament intended)?
Smash is still going strong, and its hardcore scene is stronger than it's ever been. But its success and SF's success has largely been orthogonal. Consider that Super Smash Bros. N64 was released in 1999!
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| KTallguy 1489th Post
PSN: Hunter-KT
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Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(1):Capcom vs. Capcom: Millennium Fight" , posted Wed 8 Jun 03:00:
The sad thing is that internally, Capcom often works against itself. I've heard rumors of people sabotaging one another. So it doesn't surprise me that the development schedule is borked.
There are plenty of existing games that do what Capcom is trying to do with SFV. Logistically there are different challenges, but there is proof that these models work. If they're to succeed, the entire company has to be behind it.
Releasing the game without an active storefront means they're losing money every day that it's on the market. Several months after the game's release, it's hard enough to get those people who skipped the game to buy it, but it's also hard to get people who've bought the game and tired of it to log back in and engage with the store. Without all of those wheels in motion, you lose engagement and people move on.
The efforts towards building a competitive scene can't carry a large enough fanbase (right now), because the rest of the market isn't engaged in the core product.
Once Capcom gets all their monetization stuff in place, they pretty much have no choice but to release the game for free, or risk not even being a blip on the radar. That means they'll have to gift the folks who spent $60 lots of things. Even then, many people will have already started playing the next big game.
So yeah, it's unfortunate that they didn't have their ducks in a row. They sacrificed that for EVO, but a part of me thinks that was a poor choice, even though I understand the rational.
On a lighter note, Ibuki looks fun :)
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
[this message was edited by KTallguy on Wed 8 Jun 03:03] |
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"Re(9):SFV part 4: A Street Named Desire" , posted Tue 5 Apr 07:04
All previous complaints rescinded.