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Ishmael
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"Strider" , posted Fri 19 Jul 09:33post reply

quote:
Let me pretend this is a Capcom thread: there is indeed a new Strider game coming, but what the leak didn't say was that the 2.5D game would be more of a Metroidvania.

That's... strangely.... great?

It's so great I decided to make a new thread.

I'm so stupidly happy that Strider is coming back and that he's in an adventure game similar to his NES outing. Will he still be able to teleport in and out of the Blue Dragon? Will he discover he left his attack boots in China? I can't wait to find out!

Okay, okay, the developer's pedigree scares me and I miss Shoei's amazing character designs from Strider Hiryu 2. Still, it's Strider and I'm happy.






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"Re(1):Strider" , posted Fri 19 Jul 10:29post reply

quote:
Let me pretend this is a Capcom thread: there is indeed a new Strider game coming, but what the leak didn't say was that the 2.5D game would be more of a Metroidvania.

That's... strangely.... great?
It's so great I decided to make a new thread.

I'm so stupidly happy that Strider is coming back and that he's in an adventure game similar to his NES outing. Will he still be able to teleport in and out of the Blue Dragon? Will he discover he left his attack boots in China? I can't wait to find out!

Okay, okay, the developer's pedigree scares me and I miss Shoei's amazing character designs from Strider Hiryu 2. Still, it's Strider and I'm happy.

I'm happy too. But as expected, people are already pessimistic about it (With Double-Helix, they have every right to be). But I think the Metroidvania-style will just inherently bring about significant changes to the design of the game in general. But many are already comparing it to Strider 1 or 2 on an immediate 1 to 1 basis. For example, the fact that you get so much health is a pretty normal thing when talking about Metroidvanias, where it could be 10+ minutes between one HP restoration point and another unless you use healing items. But in an arcade-action game like the originals, with their basis on perfect no-damage speedruns, and when a level can be beat in 2 minutes on average (or the whole thing in 20 minutes), it doesn't make sense at all in that context to have so much health.

I do wish they'd tone down all those fancy, blinding particle and light-bloom effects. And I'm not too hot on the aesthetics in general either. And I miss Shoei's art. But hey, I'm glad we have a new Strider.





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"Re(2):Strider" , posted Fri 19 Jul 11:04post reply

I'm going to be a bitch and ask how excited you would be if Double Helix had announced a new game called "Striker" that was essentially the same.

I'd rather have an actual Capcom new IP than another company handle an old one, but I have to admit, Metroidvania Strider does sound like a pretty great idea. I'm always super cranky about cool IPs being remade by less-cool companies, but I do hope this project turns out good. I won't be buying it myself without good word of mouth, though.

quote:
I think the Metroidvania-style will just inherently bring about significant changes to the design of the game in general.

This I don't have a problem with. It's a new game. I was crazy about the original arcade Strider, but there is so much time and so many factors between it and this game that it would be silly to compare the little details. My grumpiness is strictly reserved to who is making the game.





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"Re(3):Strider" , posted Fri 19 Jul 15:00post reply

quote:
I'm going to be a bitch and ask how excited you would be if Double Helix had announced a new game called "Striker" that was essentially the same.

I'd rather have an actual Capcom new IP than another company handle an old one, but I have to admit, Metroidvania Strider does sound like a pretty great idea. I'm always super cranky about cool IPs being remade by less-cool companies, but I do hope this project turns out good. I won't be buying it myself without good word of mouth, though.

I think the Metroidvania-style will just inherently bring about significant changes to the design of the game in general.
This I don't have a problem with. It's a new game. I was crazy about the original arcade Strider, but there is so much time and so many factors between it and this game that it would be silly to compare the little details. My grumpiness is strictly reserved to who is making the game.



What if a company called Pamcop made crap like SFIV, MVC3 and whatever else Capcom has released in the past few years? How excited would you have been? Because Capcom is not really Capcom anymore. All that matters is the quality of the product. Buying things just because a certain company nam releases them is just silly.

Oh, and this new Strider game looks like crap too.





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"Re(3):Strider" , posted Fri 19 Jul 17:07post reply

quote:
I'm going to be a bitch and ask how excited you would be if Double Helix had announced a new game called "Striker" that was essentially the same.

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"Re(4):Strider" , posted Fri 19 Jul 17:46post reply

It looks like they may have learned their lesson from "DmC" and "Bionic Commando"(the dreadlocks version) and realized no one wants shitty western redesigns. And like Bionic Commando:Rearmed they are keeping something similar to the old school gameplay.

It is hard for me to be excited after "DmC" even though some of the old "Strider" staff seem to be in charge of the project. Double Helix just seemed to come out of no where with these revival projects. First "Killer Instinct" and now this.

Graphically it is a bit washed out and the sword swinging effects for Strider's attacks NEED to be toned down.

I wonder if Moto Kikaku has plans to do a new manga or if UDON has plans to translate the original manga or even do their own comic.





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"Re(1):Strider" , posted Fri 19 Jul 22:18post reply

I'd like to be excited about this, but maybe I'm a bit too attached to the classic game, at least the Megadrive/Genesis version, which did 2 or 3 things I'm not seeing here:

- back then it was something more special than it'd be nowadays, but Hiryu had different walking7running/sliding animations for all sorts of sloped angled, which made the game feel lot more alive than most platformers of its era; this version put a bit of that early on, bit quickly goes back to flatter surfaces and long stretches involving running in a straight line... then again, mayb I'd find a lot more of that in the older game if I re-checked it

- I miss the old scarfless design, it looked appropriately/more subdued for an infiltration mission, and Hiryu's depiction as "space ninja" stood out more from his actions than though his uniform. Alas, although I think the red scarf was introduced in Strider 2, MvC urned it into people's perception of the character.
If anything, I'm kinda glad the classic look was at least available as DLC for MvC3, but I'm afraid that, such as with Ryu, you can have his older look in the crossover game, but not in the modern 3D iteration of his own series

- that level looks a bit too dark and indoor-sy... maybe I just miss the use of color of the original.


Nice to see the classic tune there, but I still prefer NxC's version - it really drove home the idea of a wide epic adventure with much at stake.





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"Re(1):Strider" , posted Fri 19 Jul 22:31post reply

Just ignore that game.

Here's your Strider 3





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"Re(2):Strider" , posted Fri 19 Jul 23:05post reply

quote:
Just ignore that game.

Here's your Strider 3

Moon Diver is good. But I do remember the levels were quite grey looking. And it did throw way too many enemies at you in rapid succession. I also wasn't a fan of "RPG-elements for the sake of RPG elements". Made it a bit grindy and slow. Though it's been a while and I need to play it again.

But anyway, let me add my own Strider 3 substitute.





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"Re(3):Strider" , posted Fri 19 Jul 23:32post reply

You guys keep talking of Strider 3, whereas you keep forgetting the real name of the true Strider 2






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"Re(2):Strider" , posted Sat 20 Jul 01:24post reply

quote:
I'm going to be a bitch and ask how excited you would be if Double Helix had announced a new game called "Striker" that was essentially the same.


Yes, I would be interested in it actually. I liked the NES Strider so why would I not like a game that is trying to have that same vibe? While I admit that the initial hook for me here is that I enjoyed previous Strider games that is a style of game I enjoy so why would I not be curious about a game that looks like it trying to follow that template?

quote:
I'm happy too. But as expected, people are already pessimistic about it (With Double-Helix, they have every right to be). But I think the Metroidvania-style will just inherently bring about significant changes to the design of the game in general. But many are already comparing it to Strider 1 or 2 on an immediate 1 to 1 basis. For example, the fact that you get so much health is a pretty normal thing when talking about Metroidvanias, where it could be 10+ minutes between one HP restoration point and another unless you use healing items. But in an arcade-action game like the originals, with their basis on perfect no-damage speedruns, and when a level can be beat in 2 minutes on average (or the whole thing in 20 minutes), it doesn't make sense at all in that context to have so much health.


For some reason people have forgotten about all the Strider games outside of the first arcade game so the conversation about this title is a bit skewed. No damage speed runs are much less likely in this style of game. Still, I am bothered by the sight of Hiryu having to bullet sponge his way through some of those attacks. Just because you can put a million bullets on the screen doesn't mean you should. Hopefully the final game relies more on skill than on having a large enough health bar to survive.

quote:
It looks like they may have learned their lesson from "DmC" and "Bionic Commando"(the dreadlocks version) and realized no one wants shitty western redesigns. And like Bionic Commando:Rearmed they are keeping something similar to the old school gameplay.


Looking over the presentation for the new game it plays out as if the programmers looked at the DmC presentation and did the exact opposite.





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"Re(4):Strider" , posted Sat 20 Jul 01:31post reply

quote:
You guys keep talking of Strider 3, whereas you keep forgetting the real name of the true Strider 2


Ah, I had completely forgotten about Osman! It's a really fun game, and the number of completely unrelated elements thrown at you in the intro are also excellent!

I'm completely neutral-to-okay with a Strider 3. 2 was a lot of fun to play (to the point where I still play it these days from time to time) but had very little to do with the original in terms of gameplay and look and feel.

The thing that I'm most nostalgic about with the original arcade Strider is the sound-- I played it a bunch in a local arcade and the jumping, regenerating, and slashing sound effects, along with the attract mode 'weird speech' by the Grandmaster and ESPECIALLY Solo's "I GOT YOU" are burned into my brain. Those are the kinds of little details that can't be duplicated in modern sequels.






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"Re(3):Strider" , posted Sat 20 Jul 03:43post reply

quote:

Yes, I would be interested in it actually. I liked the NES Strider so why would I not like a game that is trying to have that same vibe? While I admit that the initial hook for me here is that I enjoyed previous Strider games that is a style of game I enjoy so why would I not be curious about a game that looks like it trying to follow that template?


On one hand, I asked "how excited would you be" and the answer is probably "not excited enough to make a topic," but I'm being catty here whereas you're being fair. You've made me realize that I'm suffering from a different kind of bias . While I'm irritated that people are so excited about Strider when they should be looking at who is making it, I'm too busy looking at the license in a negative light to appreciate any virtues the game might have. My first reaction to an outsourced IP is "UGH" when it should be more neutral.
quote:
What if a company called Pamcop made crap like SFIV, MVC3 and whatever else Capcom has released in the past few years? How excited would you have been? Because Capcom is not really Capcom anymore. All that matters is the quality of the product. Buying things just because a certain company nam releases them is just silly.

Ignoring the fact that both games you mentioned were heavily outsourced, I agree with your logic. If Capcom had shown the exact same game, I would be lukewarm about it. I'm suffering from a negative bias towards Double Helix, not a positive bias towards Capcom. I've passed on plenty of Capcom games too.

That being said, I generally enjoy Capcom's modern "crap" and feel, like I have for a long time, that they're a crappy company full of talented people.





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"Re(4):Strider" , posted Sat 20 Jul 07:19post reply

I, for once, will give Double Helix the benefit of the doubt: what they showed us so far was pretty amusing, and much more promising that this incredibly boring and broken grinding fest called "Moon Diver"...

IMHO the Strider series reached its peak in the first entry, although I must concede that Strider 2 had its moments (it was a dynamic and engrossing game on its own, but its stage planning felt rushed at some places). The same goes for Osman/ Cannon Dancer, a hidden gem I came to discover only some years ago, and one that gave me countless moments of fun and awe, but mortally flawed with a chaotic stage layout that doesn't meke justice to its innovative gaming mechanics.

In the end, neither Strider's official sequels (Strider 2) nor "spiritual successors" (Osman, Moon Diver) weren't the groundbreaking experiences I was hoping for, but each one provided me with a product that tried to emulate and innovate over the original formula, something which I find commendable and I'm deeply thankful for. That's why, unregarding developers and officialty status, I'm all open for another take on the legend of our beloved Falchion-wielding techno-ninja!!





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"Re(5):Strider" , posted Sat 20 Jul 07:25post reply

quote:
In the end, neither Strider's official sequels (Strider 2) nor "spiritual successors" (Osman, Moon Diver) weren't the groundbreaking experiences I was hoping for, but each one provided me with a product that tried to emulate and innovate over the original formula, something which I find commendable and I'm deeply thankful for. That's why, unregarding developers and officialty status, I'm all open for another take on the legend of our beloved Falchion-wielding techno-ninja!!


I'm with you! I'll be curious to see what it's like, since it's not like there haven't been excellent modern sequels to older franchises (Shinobi, Ninja Gaiden, I'm thinking of in particular).

I just kinda wish that we could un-remember that Strider isn't a ninja, since the original game (and the NES 'port', which was great in its own way) didn't really cast him as one. Either that, or I'd love to have a game where you move so fast as Strider that he's difficult to control, as this story brings to mind.






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"Re(6):Strider" , posted Sat 20 Jul 08:40post reply

quote:
Still, I am bothered by the sight of Hiryu having to bullet sponge his way through some of those attacks. Just because you can put a million bullets on the screen doesn't mean you should. Hopefully the final game relies more on skill than on having a large enough health bar to survive.
Yeah. The bullet-sponge is an issue. Not just because it looks awkward, but also because it'll be very hard to distinguish between low "ignorable" damage and high "unignorable" damage. In the video, a stray bullet that does pitiful damage has the same visual indicator as attacks that do more damage. And without invulnerability, getting hit with multiple bullets simultaneously simply multiplies the damage, all with the same indistinguishable "red flash" indicator. Unless of course you glance away from the center and into the hard-to-read tiny life counter at the corner of the screen, not the best solution for a hectic fast-paced action game filled with flashy distracting bits and bobs such as this. Hopefully they can balance it out better before it's released.

quote:
In the end, neither Strider's official sequels (Strider 2) nor "spiritual successors" (Osman, Moon Diver) weren't the groundbreaking experiences I was hoping for, but each one provided me with a product that tried to emulate and innovate over the original formula, something which I find commendable and I'm deeply thankful for. That's why, unregarding developers and officialty status, I'm all open for another take on the legend of our beloved Falchion-wielding techno-ninja!!

This reminds me. Jeremy Parish wrote a great article about Strider's history that mirrors your thoughts(and for the most part mine. I do love Osman a lot, maybe even more so than Strider!).





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"Re(1):Strider" , posted Sat 20 Jul 10:55post reply

This game needs a multiplayer option with the Chinese triplets. Ton Pooh is long overdue for a spinoff.





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"Re(5):Strider" , posted Sat 20 Jul 14:21post reply

I remember seeing Strider on Genesis (never saw it in arcades until long afterwards) and on NES. On NES, I thought Strider was just the coolest character, and I never once thought he was a ninja... in fact, even when I played as him in MvC, it didn't fully sink in that he's a ninja!

Genesis Strider and NES Strider were such hugely different games. I loved NES Strider to pieces, though it's probably the case that Genesis Strider holds up better today.

I wonder if the special techniques will be called Tricks, or if you will have to go get some other ninja's magnet boots. Or if being unable to swim will be murderous if you haven't got your Jesus/water boots.

I really liked the environments and music in NES Strider, though, and I'm pretty sure that going into Kazakh (cuz they couldn't fit "Kazakhstan" in) and slashing robots in a lighting storm was one of the more awe-inspiring moments of the NES for me.





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"Re(6):Strider" , posted Mon 22 Jul 14:22post reply

Problems: Double Helix has never made a good game (silent hill homecoming, front mission evolved - check out all these *awesome games* they've made http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Helix_Games ), and Moon Diver was not very good either. It was directed by Koichi Yotsui, who I think is also directing this.

Also, almost every japan/u.s. coproduction where japanese folks were directing u.s. folks has gone terribly. the development styles are just so different. All I can guess is that Double Helix must be really really cheap.





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"Re(2):Strider" , posted Tue 27 Aug 06:51post reply

quote:
I'd like to be excited about this, but maybe I'm a bit too attached to the classic game, at least the Megadrive/Genesis version, which did 2 or 3 things I'm not seeing here:

- back then it was something more special than it'd be nowadays, but Hiryu had different walking7running/sliding animations for all sorts of sloped angled, which made the game feel lot more alive than most platformers of its era;



(I was told by my pal here, mysteriously, that I should go ahead and just start posting, no need to introduce myself. Some of you do indeed already know me, but it just feels wrong not to say something before I get into it. So hey! I'm Greg and I like this place.)

Anyway, it's funny you mention that specific point above, because something that's always bothered me about the original arcade/Genesis Strider was the way he ran down hills--his orientation somehow perfectly parallel to the graded slope, as though they had the same gravity-altering effects as those actual gravity-altering spheres in the same game. I have been known to kvetch about this at work probably more than is warranted, though I am noticing now that there are indeed separate animations for going up slopes. Which only makes it all the more baffling.

Also I do believe the character designer in the new Strider is the guy from Strider 2, but it might be another guy who worked on an old Strider game. I will look into this.

Also, hey: Does anybody agree with me that the NES Strider is the most interesting, if not best, Strider game to date?





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"Re(3):Strider" , posted Wed 28 Aug 03:45post reply

quote:
Anyway, it's funny you mention that specific point above, because something that's always bothered me about the original arcade/Genesis Strider was the way he ran down hills--his orientation somehow perfectly parallel to the graded slope, as though they had the same gravity-altering effects as those actual gravity-altering spheres in the same game. I have been known to kvetch about this at work probably more than is warranted, though I am noticing now that there are indeed separate animations for going up slopes. Which only makes it all the more baffling.


You're right, Strider's lack of descending animation is odd considering how much animation he otherwise has. The one part where I actually think this affects the game is the run down the hill of landmines in level 2. I remember it took me some time to determine I was supposed to book it down the hill without pause. Part of this is due to the intentionally vague stage layout of arcade games that were designed to eat your money. But now that you mention that gap in animation I realize part of my initial confusion came from the feeling that there was nothing in the game that made it look as if Strider could run down that hill. That run is a collection of Hiryu walking at odd angles and the occasional flip over to dropping animation. Instead of coming across like a relentless super ninja in that moment Strider appears to have all the grace of Mario missing a jump and sliding nose-first down a wall into a bottomless pit.

quote:
Also, hey: Does anybody agree with me that the NES Strider is the most interesting, if not best, Strider game to date?


Most certainly. It's not exactly a good game but it's still a great game in my mind if that makes any sense. In an age when a lot of games were still being designed along the line of what worked in the arcades it's longer, more involved Metroid style of gameplay made it feel like an early example of a game designed for a home system. Plus it was only released in the US and it's based on a manga that was only released in Japan; how can I not love something so pointlessly obscure?





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"Re(3):Strider" , posted Wed 28 Aug 05:28post reply

quote:
I'd like to be excited about this, but maybe I'm a bit too attached to the classic game, at least the Megadrive/Genesis version, which did 2 or 3 things I'm not seeing here:

- back then it was something more special than it'd be nowadays, but Hiryu had different walking7running/sliding animations for all sorts of sloped angled, which made the game feel lot more alive than most platformers of its era;


(I was told by my pal here, mysteriously, that I should go ahead and just start posting, no need to introduce myself. Some of you do indeed already know me, but it just feels wrong not to say something before I get into it. So hey! I'm Greg and I like this place.)


Oh hey Greg! I think I know 'your pal here', hah Anyway, welcome!
quote:

Anyway, it's funny you mention that specific point above, because something that's always bothered me about the original arcade/Genesis Strider was the way he ran down hills--his orientation somehow perfectly parallel to the graded slope, as though they had the same gravity-altering effects as those actual gravity-altering spheres in the same game. I have been known to kvetch about this at work probably more than is warranted, though I am noticing now that there are indeed separate animations for going up slopes. Which only makes it all the more baffling.


I spent a weird amount of time playing the arcade version in my misspent/delinquent youth (to the point where I can close my eyes and hear the attract mode music/dialog), and yes, I'll agree, that's something that's always bothered me about the original. For that matter, the general twitchiness of Strider's control in general has always bothered me. I think it points to a game created with a control scheme in mind that couldn't be fully realized for some reason, either due to time or technology. It was definitely groundbreaking, but it's without a doubt got a few flaws here and there (such as unexpected orientation changes, falling off platforms when visually you're still in contact with them, edge-slip, and odd collision detection with ceiling, just to name a few).
quote:

Also, hey: Does anybody agree with me that the NES Strider is the most interesting, if not best, Strider game to date?

Well, of course that's the case, at least as far as I'm concerned. I originally rented it, played it, was instantly put off by its lack of similarity to the arcade original (which at the time I could simply walk down the street to play), returned it to the rental place, and found myself inexplicably going out and buying it a few weeks later. There's something there that the other versions just don't have!






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"Re(4):Strider" , posted Wed 28 Aug 05:30post reply

quote:
because something that's always bothered me about the original arcade/Genesis Strider was the way he ran down hills


A valid complaint, but I don't think it significantly diminishes the fact that you can run down hills like that and gain momentum.

The look and sounds in Strider definitely define it but it's the overall feel (and inventiveness, I think) that makes people love it.





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"Re(4):Strider" , posted Wed 28 Aug 14:55post reply

quote:
Most certainly. It's not exactly a good game but it's still a great game in my mind if that makes any sense. In an age when a lot of games were still being designed along the line of what worked in the arcades it's longer, more involved Metroid style of gameplay made it feel like an early example of a game designed for a home system.


I want to recall reading long ago that NES games like Rygar, Strider, Bionic Commando, and the like were turned into such large games in part because the NES couldn't handle straight ports. Rather than knocking out a downgraded port, the developers just made new games based on the concepts.





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"Re(5):Strider" , posted Wed 28 Aug 15:55post reply

quote:
because something that's always bothered me about the original arcade/Genesis Strider was the way he ran down hills

A valid complaint, but I don't think it significantly diminishes the fact that you can run down hills like that and gain momentum.




It's a bit weird that such a carefully animated main character would be missing what would be one of the most visible in-game animations (taking into account that they even took the time to give him idle stances when facing a downward slope), so I always thought Strider's downhill running animation to be something done on purpose. In fact, I'd dare to say it's consistent with other productions under Isuke's direction so, could it be a trademark of sorts?

My young mind got really impressed by the arcade original, and this stage transition became engraved into my mind forever. It inspired me so much that, to this day, I keep running downhill Hiryu's way whenever the laws of physics allow me so (as Mosquiton already stated, it's a great technique to relieve joint pressure and gaining momentum). I guess I'll never leave Eurasia alive...