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Professor
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"Weekly classic fighting game thread II Turbo" , posted Sun 30 Apr 15:19:post reply

Summer has com... wait a sec, it's still SPRING!?
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[this message was edited by Professor on Sun 30 Apr 15:41]

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Professor
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"Re(1):Weekly classic fighting game thread II " , posted Sun 30 Apr 15:41post reply

Previous post from Toxico:


Do you recognize this man?

Do you recognize this man? = a cool anecdote if you're interested in Capcom staff shenanigans in in today's CapcomTV stream.



Spoiler: So it's the producer of Daigyakuten Saiban! He used to be a programmer and worked on SF2 back then.





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"Re(2):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Sun 30 Apr 17:27:post reply

quote:
Previous post from Toxico




Best fight of the week-end at the ARMS invitational tournament of Chōkaigi.





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[this message was edited by chazumaru on Mon 1 May 05:04]

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"Re(3):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Thu 4 May 05:08post reply

Man this is sad.

Apparently legendary 3S player, Kuroda, is going through severe depression and wishes he'd never even picked up video games. A bunch of his fans are trying to think of ways to cheer him up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappa/comments/6921av/operation_saving_kuroda/

I'm neither Japanese nor a professional e-sports player (athlete??), but I think when strangers on the internet start plotting ways to bring you out of your funk, that's gotta count for something!






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"Re(4):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Thu 4 May 21:11post reply

Having a low self steem is pretty terrible, I have to endure with that myself, so I can understand his pain.

It seems like kuroda had a terrible childhood, his father was missing and his mother treated him terrible.

Also, I could see why dedicating some of his best years to play videogames competitivly could be demoralizing on your later years, specially when those games don't have big monetary rewards like other e-sports games, also, if you lack some social skills, it is really an uphill battle

I hope that at least the internet support could help him a bit, and that his closer friends could support him through this hard times





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"JEAN vs RYOKO" , posted Sun 7 May 19:16post reply

WHAAAT there was a 9v9 team battle between FRANCE and JAPAN on Fighter's History Dynamite @Mikado this afternoon!? I feel bad for missing this live.





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"Re(1):JEAN vs RYOKO" , posted Sun 7 May 22:19post reply

quote:
WHAAAT there was a 9v9 team battle between FRANCE and JAPAN on Fighter's History Dynamite @Mikado this afternoon!? I feel bad for missing this live.


I have no idea how this happened but I'm so glad it did.





Professor
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"Re(4):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Mon 8 May 02:25post reply

quote:
Man this is sad.

Apparently legendary 3S player, Kuroda, is going through severe depression and wishes he'd never even picked up video games. A bunch of his fans are trying to think of ways to cheer him up.


Kuroda actually received professional help on his depression and even got support from one of his friends by making money while having his situation covered on Weekly Playboy magazine online. Unfortunately I don't think support from overseas fans will help him because it has quite a bit to do with his financial situation; he comes from a broken family and his alcoholic mother has a pathological money spending issue, so whatever he makes disappears really quickly through paying back her debts. He's not in good physical shape either because he doesn't spend money on himself. He needs to change his enviornment to alleviate some causes of his depression but he doesn't seem to be forwardgoing to taking those steps.



quote:
WHAAAT there was a 9v9 team battle between FRANCE and JAPAN on Fighter's History Dynamite @Mikado this afternoon!? I feel bad for missing this live.


This is so surreal! Thanks for the link.





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"Re(5):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Thu 11 May 03:21post reply

Kuroda, fighting.

About the FHD team tournament,

Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
I was taking a look at it and I almost constantly hear the two commentators overlapping, even when listening from one earphone only. Hmpf, this is what you get when you force certain microphone-equipped earphones bundled with phones on a device from a different manufacturer. I even taped the mic button because sound would be horrible otherwise xD

End of Spoiler







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"Re(4):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Mon 5 Jun 02:58post reply

quote:
Man this is sad.

Apparently legendary 3S player, Kuroda, is going through severe depression and wishes he'd never even picked up video games. A bunch of his fans are trying to think of ways to cheer him up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappa/comments/6921av/operation_saving_kuroda/

I'm neither Japanese nor a professional e-sports player (athlete??), but I think when strangers on the internet start plotting ways to bring you out of your funk, that's gotta count for something!



Daigo's stream recently ran the Kuroda Hug Project. Daigo and Fuudo never struck me as social butterflies but Kuroda is a good sport for playing along.





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"Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Wed 14 Jun 00:01post reply

Well, let's discuss more classic fighting games, shall we?

I still plan to bring the Power Stone series here someday, but it was just after Toxico passing away that it occurred to me that the World Heroes games were never discussed in the first thread, was it? So, why not discussing it now?

When I was a kid, these games felt like a Street Fighter wannabe, but now I can appreciate them more for several reasons:

- The historical figures: sure, I knew Janne and Rasputin were inspired in Jeanne d'Arc and Grigori Rasputin, but only over a decade later I learned that pretty much ALL of the characters are inspired in either historical figures (even Brocken apparently was supposed to be a cybernetic version of Hitler, before ADK felt it would be too risky), remarkable athletes or heroes from tales;

- The wrestling references: from Muscle Power being a Hulk Hogan lookalike from the bell sounds whenever a character was knocked out, it's cool to see how many wrestling references were in these games. The Death Match mode in WH and WH2, now I know, took a page from some Japanese wrestling matches, which would really involve gimmicks like a ring surrounded by barbed wire or (allegedly) electrified cables, or the loser having his hair shaved off. Sure, some traps in this mode would probably never be allowed in a real-life match, but it's still a cool reference. Also notable is the Tournament mode in WH2 Jet;

- The improvements from one game to the other: I'm not sure if any of the WH games was ever advanced in regards to its Capcom and SNK competitors, but it's nice to see how much it evolved. From a first game with a small roster and remarkable only due to the Death Match mode, it got a huge increase in the number of characters in WH2, then Jet (whose name makes it seem like a simple upgrade of WH2) adds several gameplay mechanics, three new bosses (unfortunately at the cost of the two from the previous game, one of whom sadly didn't even get to return in the final installment - then again, Geegus wasn't that remarkable, was he?) and a completely revamped Arcade mode, and finally Perfect adding Super Combos (and "Super Super Combos") and Gokuu - a great addition for anyone familiar with the Monkey King tale or with the Dragon Ball series.

That's what I could remember now, but I'm sure you guys have a lot more to contribute to it. It's sad that the person who could contribute the most to this discussion isn't here anymore, but I'm sure he'll enjoy it and perform the obscene voodoo teleport dance from above.





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"Re(1):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Wed 14 Jun 16:14:post reply

In memory of Toxico.

To this day, I still wonder if he wandered into this site thinking that it's the Mudman's Cafe.


When it comes to the World Heroes series, World Heroes 2 is the must-talk title in the series. It was actually the third fighting game that I played in my life following Street Fighter 2 and Fatal Fury 2, and it was probably a good thing because its nuttyness might've traumatized me for life had it been my first experience.

The characters for the most part were total oddballs-- a mostly naked Shaman with a huge flat head, an eerie magician with Cossack kicks and a huge magical finger flick for an antiair, an American Footballer who keeps shouting "ALMOND SHOT!" for his projectiles.. very memorable even to this day. Al Capone was one of the characters considered for the series. Not sure why he wasn't thrown in, but then again the developers seemed to have their own sense of standards. And of course, let's not forget about Brocken. I'm still surprised he wasn't censored in the American release, considering that even M.U.S.C.L.E. for the NES had its Brocken (different character) swapped with another skin.

WH2's game systems were quite groundbreaking for its time compared to SF or FF, which unquestionably explains how the game was able to dethrone those titles in the income rankings in Japan. Throw reversals and projectile reversals really made the game exciting where SF sort of felt bland, especially since those were back in the days when throwing from a jump-in was considered "cheap" by some people. You rarely hear that sort of house rule nowadays, but back in the yesteryears we were still kids. And throw reversals were a great way to say "hey, you're just not skilled enough!" (Although we now know that the player who started the throw would eventually win after 6 reversals!)

Projectile reversals were a cool idea too, maybe even going a bit overboard. It almost looked like a glitch when you'd block Captain Kid's shark and it'd fly straight down underneath the ground. But that's what made the game so fun.

And who in their right mind came up for the stages in this game? The normal stages are fine, but the death matches are just crazy-- fighting outside a faulty power plant with electric shocks zapping all over the place, fighting in a ring with spikey walls and oiled floor, and of course the skinhead death matches! Those were the days when game developers actually took the time to draw different lose poses for special losses. Those days will be missed.

So with all of that, I was extremely excited when World Heroes 1 was released for the SNES and it was a day-1 buy for me. Needless to say my disappointment couldn't be made to words when I played and discovered that the prequel to 2 had none of that interesting stuff and played like a Street Fighter clone.

World Heroes 2 was fun, but in today's standards it certainly wasn't a balanced game, just that people didn't play so hardcore back in those days and there was no internet to spread around gameplay videos. The sequels were more balanced, but it unfortunately also meant that they were nowhere as fun. After all, World Heroes 2 was a game where the developers left some stuff just because they "looked cool", like Shura's Muai-tai kick where he'd jump out of the screen and come falling down after a few seconds-- it was a actually a parameter glitch.

I don't have much recollection of Jet except that it didn't last too long in the arcades. Perfect was a game I played a bit and although it didn't have anything innovative the way that 2 did, its additional graphics did the game justice, and by lord, Zeus must've been one of the most broken characters in fighting game history if only the CPU wasn't so braindead (when used by a human, he's a monster). One of the last stages in the game is Shibuya, and it's kind of funny how the real location still looks similar to the stage even after two decades!



...Come to think, the death matches must've been inspired by the Pro-wrestling scene in Japan back then where they had the really bloody death matches. It sort of makes sense since it's around the time when the Tokyo Dome was built in the middle of the city and its popularity helped as a multiplier effect to Japanese pro-wresting. That was around the time when Japan had some of the craziest wrestlers like Atusuhi Onita and Tiger Jeet Singh.





[this message was edited by Professor on Wed 14 Jun 16:58]



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"Re(2):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Sat 17 Jun 01:28:post reply

quote:
In memory of Toxico.

To this day, I still wonder if he wandered into this site thinking that it's the Mudman's Cafe.



xD

I would like to clarify a detail as to Toxico ... his favorite saga of SNK / Neo-Geo was Samurai Shodown, in fact, I remember that he had a love / hate relationship after playing quite a long time in the IV game, with only Seeing the arcade machine from afar he shouted 'United State, damn Sogetsu!', Which at the time seemed funny and strange at the same time. Of course he ended up preferring the following sequels to be more balanced or less broken.

In a moment of nostalgia and because most of us remembered them with affection, we had a reunion with several sagas, among them World Heroes, in particular the 2. And thus began the relationship between Toxico and the charismatic evil Hukashaka, and all that analysis Exhaustive (although he liked to play with Rasputin). During the fighting game boom most of us lacked mental maturity and we did not have a retro culture, we all used to compete in the popular arcade of the moment. Toxico certainly did not give the attention that deserved to the saga of World Heroes for lacking of competitive scene, and spent the years in its eagerness to find a balanced game had to be fascinated with the version Jet / Perfect.

I doubt that you can recognize his voice but I leave you a video recorded in 2008, long before we had a game capture.

Https://youtu.be/Wcn6Si7dxnI


By the way, I do not know what the subject is about but I had to clarify that point and say that you need a topic about relevant similarities or interesting references... you know, serious fun.





[this message was edited by Sousa on Sat 17 Jun 02:32]

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"Re(3):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Tue 20 Jun 09:01post reply

quote:
I would like to clarify a detail as to Toxico ... his favorite saga of SNK / Neo-Geo was Samurai Shodown, in fact, I remember that he had a love / hate relationship after playing quite a long time in the IV game, with only Seeing the arcade machine from afar he shouted 'United State, damn Sogetsu!', Which at the time seemed funny and strange at the same time. Of course he ended up preferring the following sequels to be more balanced or less broken.


Samurai Shodown!? Well that's interesting, thanks for the clarification. I used to play SS1 a lot with friends, starting the games off with a clash and just going fist to fist for the fun of things. Only 20 years later did we learn that mashing buttons during the clash had no meaning because the winner was totally randomized.

Btw Sousa, regarding that World Heroes video on your channel-- Karatsu actually contacted me last month about Toxico passing away. Toxico was previously referring to him as his Tekken Waifu, lol.







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"Re(4):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Tue 20 Jun 16:54:post reply

quote:

Btw Sousa, regarding that World Heroes video on your channel-- Karatsu actually contacted me last month about Toxico passing away. Toxico was previously referring to him as his Tekken Waifu, lol.



Exactly, hahaha ... Karatsu was his rival and friend whom he could never win in a Tekken tournament. Toxico used to teach him to play retro 2D fighting game.





[this message was edited by Sousa on Tue 20 Jun 17:02]

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"From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE GAME!" , posted Wed 19 Jul 02:42post reply

Well, it seems the discussions about World Heroes are over, so moving on...

The recent reveal of Abigail for SFV reminded me this week of Evoga's Rage of the Dragons, which looks like an interesting classic game to discuss. It's interesting to notice it was released long after most of the games we consider classic - but, on the other hand, it was released nearly fifteen years ago, so I'd say it can already be considered a classic game, somehow.

I guess you guys already know this game was supposed to be part of the Double Dragon franchise until the producers failed to obtain the right to use its license - thus, the Lee brothers became the Lewis brothers, and Abobo became Abubo. Knowing this before getting to play it for the first time, I expected ROTD to be full of DD references, but it actually does feel like a completely original game - and the good thing is, it works!

While ROTD is far from being the best fighting game in the world, it's still quite good. I love how instead of making the roster look like Double Dragon mooks or bosses, the developers made each of the fighters very unique, ranging from normal people to not-so-normal people (including dragon hosts, dragon hunters and a couple that is implied to be avatars of an angel and a demon), to a British girl in a blue dress named Alice Carroll... yeah, very subtle.

Anyway, I don't know if maybe it's the way how the arcade cabinet I used to play was programmed, but ROTD was really HARD. I'm not a good player myself, but pretty much everyone who tried to play it would get a Game Over screen by the third or fourth battle. Sadly, this made most people dislike it, despite the interesting tag-team gameplay system, nice sprites and catchy soundtrack (Pepe & Pupa's and Billy & Lynn's are my favorite tracks).

It's even sadder, however, that it has next to no chance of ever getting a sequel. To me, it was - and still is - quite fun. A small project, with some flaws (like the many gramatical errors in text, the amateurish Radel & Annie stage, uninspired designs for Radel and Oni, or the annoying voices given to Pupa, Annie, Alice and Mr. Jones), but with many more qualities and a good potential to generate an even better sequel. Oh well...





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"Re(1):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 03:38post reply

quote:
Well, it seems the discussions about World Heroes are over, so moving on...

The recent reveal of Abigail for SFV reminded me this week of Evoga's Rage of the Dragons, which looks like an interesting classic game to discuss. It's interesting to notice it was released long after most of the games we consider classic - but, on the other hand, it was released nearly fifteen years ago, so I'd say it can already be considered a classic game, somehow.

I guess you guys already know this game was supposed to be part of the Double Dragon franchise until the producers failed to obtain the right to use its license - thus, the Lee brothers became the Lewis brothers, and Abobo became Abubo. Knowing this before getting to play it for the first time, I expected ROTD to be full of DD references, but it actually does feel like a completely original game - and the good thing is, it works!

While ROTD is far from being the best fighting game in the world, it's still quite good. I love how instead of making the roster look like Double Dragon mooks or bosses, the developers made each of the fighters very unique, ranging from normal people to not-so-normal people (including dragon hosts, dragon hunters and a couple that is implied to be avatars of an angel and a demon), to a British girl in a blue dress named Alice Carroll... yeah, very subtle.

Anyway, I don't know if maybe it's the way how the arcade cabinet I used to play was programmed, but ROTD was really HARD. I'm not a good player

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


Kinda sad it has to be this way. Well, Evoga went bankrupt in 2004, while Noise Factory shut down last March. Nobody knows who currently owns the rights of ROTD until now.

I remember Yasuyuki Oda has intentions to revive ROTD. However, being a "homage" to Double Dragon might ring alarm to the current rights holder of Double Dragon... Arc System Works.

I do not know if SNK and/or Arc System Works brought this up when their reps are in EVO.

I see scenarios if ROTD rights was brought up.
a) SNK gets the rights, but loses Billy, Jimmy and Abubo to ArcSys. SNK will reboot the series, but SNK will retcon them out and promote Lynn as the de facto protagonist, or give Billy, Jimmy and Abubo the Nameless treatment.
b) Arc System Works gets the rights, no legal problems.
c) SNK and ArcSys makes a deal, SNK gets the rights, loses the Lewis Brothers and Abubo, but allows to bring the Lee Brothers and Abobo as guest characters as compensation with ArcSys' blessing.





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"Re(1):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 03:45post reply

quote:
Well, it seems the discussions about World Heroes are over, so moving on...

The recent reveal of Abigail for SFV reminded me this week of Evoga's Rage of the Dragons, which looks like an interesting classic game to discuss.


I consider ROTD a great game from a graphical point of view, not on the level of GarouMOTW, but it had really big sprites, interesting character design (the priest! and the possessed girl!!) but it seems that after some point during development they decided to pad the roster with too much head swaps (at least from superficial point of view, gameplay-wise I not remember much, but I think they had at least movesets different enough).
I'm talking about the two guys in spandex and if IIRC there were also 2 girls that shared the same base sprite. And not counting the two brothers!
For the difficulty, yes, I remember it very difficult, and I never beat the final boss.
The same happened with Matrimelee, it was developed by the same people, right? (It had some ROTD characters as secret). That boss was really the worst in absolute.





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"Re(2):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 04:12post reply

quote:
I see scenarios if ROTD rights was brought up.
a) SNK gets the rights, but loses Billy, Jimmy and Abubo to ArcSys. SNK will reboot the series, but SNK will retcon them out and promote Lynn as the de facto protagonist, or give Billy, Jimmy and Abubo the Nameless treatment.
b) Arc System Works gets the rights, no legal problems.
c) SNK and ArcSys makes a deal, SNK gets the rights, loses the Lewis Brothers and Abubo, but allows to bring the Lee Brothers and Abobo as guest characters as compensation with ArcSys' blessing.


I'd LOVE any of these scenarios! Although I wonder if ArcSys would have the time for a new project (or if SNK would have budget and interest for a project not associated with KOF)...

But it would be great to see ROTD back, maybe with some more dragon hosts, more supernatural characters, maybe even some fighters looking like "Alice in Wonderland" characters to give ROTD's Alice some backstory development. And I wouldn't complain if the tag team system borrowed some features from Atlus' Groove on Fight (with the partners in the background following wherever the main characters go, defeated fighters staying on the ground, maybe even the ability to throw the unconscious people on the enemy).

quote:
I consider ROTD a great game from a graphical point of view, not on the level of GarouMOTW, but it had really big sprites, interesting character design (the priest! and the possessed girl!!) but it seems that after some point during development they decided to pad the roster with too much head swaps (at least from superficial point of view, gameplay-wise I not remember much, but I think they had at least movesets different enough).
I'm talking about the two guys in spandex and if IIRC there were also 2 girls that shared the same base sprite. And not counting the two brothers!



I guess you're talking about Radel and Oni (the two uninspired designs I mentioned), Annie and Alice (they're the only two girls I can remember that have similar height), and obviously Jimmy and Billy.

To be fair, though, each of them has different animations, different clothing (even if Radel and Oni are both wearing spandex, they're wearing DIFFERENT kinds of spandex) and different movesets, so I'm not sure if any of them could be considered a case of head swap. I don't understand much of base sprites and animations, but they look quite different from each other to me.





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"Re(3):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 05:58post reply

Radel and Oni, yes them, I think they had different movesets but some sprite were recycled between the two (like for saving time during development... it's just an impression I had at the time).
I could be wrong, but I remember having that bad impressions about them when I played the game back then.





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"Re(4):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 06:47post reply

I guess that is possible, yes. After reading your comment, I searched for some videos of ROTD, and Annie's and Alice's neutral fighting stances do look quite similar to each other (except for Annie having her arms and head raised).

Then again, Evoga did make this game with very few resources, didn't it? I don't blame the developers if they recycled some animations here and there, especially because as a whole, no two characters in ROTD look or play the same as each other. Plus, it's not like if companies like Capcom, SNK and ArcSys didn't do the same thing before (and let's not even mention Mortal Kombat's ninjas...).





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