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Professor
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"Weekly classic fighting game thread II Turbo" , posted Sun 30 Apr 15:19:post reply

Summer has com... wait a sec, it's still SPRING!?
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[this message was edited by Professor on Sun 30 Apr 15:41]

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Professor
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"Re(1):Weekly classic fighting game thread II " , posted Sun 30 Apr 15:41post reply

Previous post from Toxico:


Do you recognize this man?

Do you recognize this man? = a cool anecdote if you're interested in Capcom staff shenanigans in in today's CapcomTV stream.



Spoiler: So it's the producer of Daigyakuten Saiban! He used to be a programmer and worked on SF2 back then.





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"Re(2):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Sun 30 Apr 17:27:post reply

quote:
Previous post from Toxico




Best fight of the week-end at the ARMS invitational tournament of Chōkaigi.





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[this message was edited by chazumaru on Mon 1 May 05:04]

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"Re(3):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Thu 4 May 05:08post reply

Man this is sad.

Apparently legendary 3S player, Kuroda, is going through severe depression and wishes he'd never even picked up video games. A bunch of his fans are trying to think of ways to cheer him up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappa/comments/6921av/operation_saving_kuroda/

I'm neither Japanese nor a professional e-sports player (athlete??), but I think when strangers on the internet start plotting ways to bring you out of your funk, that's gotta count for something!






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"Re(4):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Thu 4 May 21:11post reply

Having a low self steem is pretty terrible, I have to endure with that myself, so I can understand his pain.

It seems like kuroda had a terrible childhood, his father was missing and his mother treated him terrible.

Also, I could see why dedicating some of his best years to play videogames competitivly could be demoralizing on your later years, specially when those games don't have big monetary rewards like other e-sports games, also, if you lack some social skills, it is really an uphill battle

I hope that at least the internet support could help him a bit, and that his closer friends could support him through this hard times





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"JEAN vs RYOKO" , posted Sun 7 May 19:16post reply

WHAAAT there was a 9v9 team battle between FRANCE and JAPAN on Fighter's History Dynamite @Mikado this afternoon!? I feel bad for missing this live.





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"Re(1):JEAN vs RYOKO" , posted Sun 7 May 22:19post reply

quote:
WHAAAT there was a 9v9 team battle between FRANCE and JAPAN on Fighter's History Dynamite @Mikado this afternoon!? I feel bad for missing this live.


I have no idea how this happened but I'm so glad it did.





Professor
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"Re(4):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Mon 8 May 02:25post reply

quote:
Man this is sad.

Apparently legendary 3S player, Kuroda, is going through severe depression and wishes he'd never even picked up video games. A bunch of his fans are trying to think of ways to cheer him up.


Kuroda actually received professional help on his depression and even got support from one of his friends by making money while having his situation covered on Weekly Playboy magazine online. Unfortunately I don't think support from overseas fans will help him because it has quite a bit to do with his financial situation; he comes from a broken family and his alcoholic mother has a pathological money spending issue, so whatever he makes disappears really quickly through paying back her debts. He's not in good physical shape either because he doesn't spend money on himself. He needs to change his enviornment to alleviate some causes of his depression but he doesn't seem to be forwardgoing to taking those steps.



quote:
WHAAAT there was a 9v9 team battle between FRANCE and JAPAN on Fighter's History Dynamite @Mikado this afternoon!? I feel bad for missing this live.


This is so surreal! Thanks for the link.





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"Re(5):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Thu 11 May 03:21post reply

Kuroda, fighting.

About the FHD team tournament,

Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
I was taking a look at it and I almost constantly hear the two commentators overlapping, even when listening from one earphone only. Hmpf, this is what you get when you force certain microphone-equipped earphones bundled with phones on a device from a different manufacturer. I even taped the mic button because sound would be horrible otherwise xD

End of Spoiler







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"Re(4):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Mon 5 Jun 02:58post reply

quote:
Man this is sad.

Apparently legendary 3S player, Kuroda, is going through severe depression and wishes he'd never even picked up video games. A bunch of his fans are trying to think of ways to cheer him up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappa/comments/6921av/operation_saving_kuroda/

I'm neither Japanese nor a professional e-sports player (athlete??), but I think when strangers on the internet start plotting ways to bring you out of your funk, that's gotta count for something!



Daigo's stream recently ran the Kuroda Hug Project. Daigo and Fuudo never struck me as social butterflies but Kuroda is a good sport for playing along.





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"Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Wed 14 Jun 00:01post reply

Well, let's discuss more classic fighting games, shall we?

I still plan to bring the Power Stone series here someday, but it was just after Toxico passing away that it occurred to me that the World Heroes games were never discussed in the first thread, was it? So, why not discussing it now?

When I was a kid, these games felt like a Street Fighter wannabe, but now I can appreciate them more for several reasons:

- The historical figures: sure, I knew Janne and Rasputin were inspired in Jeanne d'Arc and Grigori Rasputin, but only over a decade later I learned that pretty much ALL of the characters are inspired in either historical figures (even Brocken apparently was supposed to be a cybernetic version of Hitler, before ADK felt it would be too risky), remarkable athletes or heroes from tales;

- The wrestling references: from Muscle Power being a Hulk Hogan lookalike from the bell sounds whenever a character was knocked out, it's cool to see how many wrestling references were in these games. The Death Match mode in WH and WH2, now I know, took a page from some Japanese wrestling matches, which would really involve gimmicks like a ring surrounded by barbed wire or (allegedly) electrified cables, or the loser having his hair shaved off. Sure, some traps in this mode would probably never be allowed in a real-life match, but it's still a cool reference. Also notable is the Tournament mode in WH2 Jet;

- The improvements from one game to the other: I'm not sure if any of the WH games was ever advanced in regards to its Capcom and SNK competitors, but it's nice to see how much it evolved. From a first game with a small roster and remarkable only due to the Death Match mode, it got a huge increase in the number of characters in WH2, then Jet (whose name makes it seem like a simple upgrade of WH2) adds several gameplay mechanics, three new bosses (unfortunately at the cost of the two from the previous game, one of whom sadly didn't even get to return in the final installment - then again, Geegus wasn't that remarkable, was he?) and a completely revamped Arcade mode, and finally Perfect adding Super Combos (and "Super Super Combos") and Gokuu - a great addition for anyone familiar with the Monkey King tale or with the Dragon Ball series.

That's what I could remember now, but I'm sure you guys have a lot more to contribute to it. It's sad that the person who could contribute the most to this discussion isn't here anymore, but I'm sure he'll enjoy it and perform the obscene voodoo teleport dance from above.





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"Re(1):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Wed 14 Jun 16:14:post reply

In memory of Toxico.

To this day, I still wonder if he wandered into this site thinking that it's the Mudman's Cafe.


When it comes to the World Heroes series, World Heroes 2 is the must-talk title in the series. It was actually the third fighting game that I played in my life following Street Fighter 2 and Fatal Fury 2, and it was probably a good thing because its nuttyness might've traumatized me for life had it been my first experience.

The characters for the most part were total oddballs-- a mostly naked Shaman with a huge flat head, an eerie magician with Cossack kicks and a huge magical finger flick for an antiair, an American Footballer who keeps shouting "ALMOND SHOT!" for his projectiles.. very memorable even to this day. Al Capone was one of the characters considered for the series. Not sure why he wasn't thrown in, but then again the developers seemed to have their own sense of standards. And of course, let's not forget about Brocken. I'm still surprised he wasn't censored in the American release, considering that even M.U.S.C.L.E. for the NES had its Brocken (different character) swapped with another skin.

WH2's game systems were quite groundbreaking for its time compared to SF or FF, which unquestionably explains how the game was able to dethrone those titles in the income rankings in Japan. Throw reversals and projectile reversals really made the game exciting where SF sort of felt bland, especially since those were back in the days when throwing from a jump-in was considered "cheap" by some people. You rarely hear that sort of house rule nowadays, but back in the yesteryears we were still kids. And throw reversals were a great way to say "hey, you're just not skilled enough!" (Although we now know that the player who started the throw would eventually win after 6 reversals!)

Projectile reversals were a cool idea too, maybe even going a bit overboard. It almost looked like a glitch when you'd block Captain Kid's shark and it'd fly straight down underneath the ground. But that's what made the game so fun.

And who in their right mind came up for the stages in this game? The normal stages are fine, but the death matches are just crazy-- fighting outside a faulty power plant with electric shocks zapping all over the place, fighting in a ring with spikey walls and oiled floor, and of course the skinhead death matches! Those were the days when game developers actually took the time to draw different lose poses for special losses. Those days will be missed.

So with all of that, I was extremely excited when World Heroes 1 was released for the SNES and it was a day-1 buy for me. Needless to say my disappointment couldn't be made to words when I played and discovered that the prequel to 2 had none of that interesting stuff and played like a Street Fighter clone.

World Heroes 2 was fun, but in today's standards it certainly wasn't a balanced game, just that people didn't play so hardcore back in those days and there was no internet to spread around gameplay videos. The sequels were more balanced, but it unfortunately also meant that they were nowhere as fun. After all, World Heroes 2 was a game where the developers left some stuff just because they "looked cool", like Shura's Muai-tai kick where he'd jump out of the screen and come falling down after a few seconds-- it was a actually a parameter glitch.

I don't have much recollection of Jet except that it didn't last too long in the arcades. Perfect was a game I played a bit and although it didn't have anything innovative the way that 2 did, its additional graphics did the game justice, and by lord, Zeus must've been one of the most broken characters in fighting game history if only the CPU wasn't so braindead (when used by a human, he's a monster). One of the last stages in the game is Shibuya, and it's kind of funny how the real location still looks similar to the stage even after two decades!



...Come to think, the death matches must've been inspired by the Pro-wrestling scene in Japan back then where they had the really bloody death matches. It sort of makes sense since it's around the time when the Tokyo Dome was built in the middle of the city and its popularity helped as a multiplier effect to Japanese pro-wresting. That was around the time when Japan had some of the craziest wrestlers like Atusuhi Onita and Tiger Jeet Singh.





[this message was edited by Professor on Wed 14 Jun 16:58]



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"Re(2):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Sat 17 Jun 01:28:post reply

quote:
In memory of Toxico.

To this day, I still wonder if he wandered into this site thinking that it's the Mudman's Cafe.



xD

I would like to clarify a detail as to Toxico ... his favorite saga of SNK / Neo-Geo was Samurai Shodown, in fact, I remember that he had a love / hate relationship after playing quite a long time in the IV game, with only Seeing the arcade machine from afar he shouted 'United State, damn Sogetsu!', Which at the time seemed funny and strange at the same time. Of course he ended up preferring the following sequels to be more balanced or less broken.

In a moment of nostalgia and because most of us remembered them with affection, we had a reunion with several sagas, among them World Heroes, in particular the 2. And thus began the relationship between Toxico and the charismatic evil Hukashaka, and all that analysis Exhaustive (although he liked to play with Rasputin). During the fighting game boom most of us lacked mental maturity and we did not have a retro culture, we all used to compete in the popular arcade of the moment. Toxico certainly did not give the attention that deserved to the saga of World Heroes for lacking of competitive scene, and spent the years in its eagerness to find a balanced game had to be fascinated with the version Jet / Perfect.

I doubt that you can recognize his voice but I leave you a video recorded in 2008, long before we had a game capture.

Https://youtu.be/Wcn6Si7dxnI


By the way, I do not know what the subject is about but I had to clarify that point and say that you need a topic about relevant similarities or interesting references... you know, serious fun.





[this message was edited by Sousa on Sat 17 Jun 02:32]

Professor
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"Re(3):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Tue 20 Jun 09:01post reply

quote:
I would like to clarify a detail as to Toxico ... his favorite saga of SNK / Neo-Geo was Samurai Shodown, in fact, I remember that he had a love / hate relationship after playing quite a long time in the IV game, with only Seeing the arcade machine from afar he shouted 'United State, damn Sogetsu!', Which at the time seemed funny and strange at the same time. Of course he ended up preferring the following sequels to be more balanced or less broken.


Samurai Shodown!? Well that's interesting, thanks for the clarification. I used to play SS1 a lot with friends, starting the games off with a clash and just going fist to fist for the fun of things. Only 20 years later did we learn that mashing buttons during the clash had no meaning because the winner was totally randomized.

Btw Sousa, regarding that World Heroes video on your channel-- Karatsu actually contacted me last month about Toxico passing away. Toxico was previously referring to him as his Tekken Waifu, lol.







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"Re(4):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Tue 20 Jun 16:54:post reply

quote:

Btw Sousa, regarding that World Heroes video on your channel-- Karatsu actually contacted me last month about Toxico passing away. Toxico was previously referring to him as his Tekken Waifu, lol.



Exactly, hahaha ... Karatsu was his rival and friend whom he could never win in a Tekken tournament. Toxico used to teach him to play retro 2D fighting game.





[this message was edited by Sousa on Tue 20 Jun 17:02]

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"From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE GAME!" , posted Wed 19 Jul 02:42post reply

Well, it seems the discussions about World Heroes are over, so moving on...

The recent reveal of Abigail for SFV reminded me this week of Evoga's Rage of the Dragons, which looks like an interesting classic game to discuss. It's interesting to notice it was released long after most of the games we consider classic - but, on the other hand, it was released nearly fifteen years ago, so I'd say it can already be considered a classic game, somehow.

I guess you guys already know this game was supposed to be part of the Double Dragon franchise until the producers failed to obtain the right to use its license - thus, the Lee brothers became the Lewis brothers, and Abobo became Abubo. Knowing this before getting to play it for the first time, I expected ROTD to be full of DD references, but it actually does feel like a completely original game - and the good thing is, it works!

While ROTD is far from being the best fighting game in the world, it's still quite good. I love how instead of making the roster look like Double Dragon mooks or bosses, the developers made each of the fighters very unique, ranging from normal people to not-so-normal people (including dragon hosts, dragon hunters and a couple that is implied to be avatars of an angel and a demon), to a British girl in a blue dress named Alice Carroll... yeah, very subtle.

Anyway, I don't know if maybe it's the way how the arcade cabinet I used to play was programmed, but ROTD was really HARD. I'm not a good player myself, but pretty much everyone who tried to play it would get a Game Over screen by the third or fourth battle. Sadly, this made most people dislike it, despite the interesting tag-team gameplay system, nice sprites and catchy soundtrack (Pepe & Pupa's and Billy & Lynn's are my favorite tracks).

It's even sadder, however, that it has next to no chance of ever getting a sequel. To me, it was - and still is - quite fun. A small project, with some flaws (like the many gramatical errors in text, the amateurish Radel & Annie stage, uninspired designs for Radel and Oni, or the annoying voices given to Pupa, Annie, Alice and Mr. Jones), but with many more qualities and a good potential to generate an even better sequel. Oh well...





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"Re(1):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 03:38post reply

quote:
Well, it seems the discussions about World Heroes are over, so moving on...

The recent reveal of Abigail for SFV reminded me this week of Evoga's Rage of the Dragons, which looks like an interesting classic game to discuss. It's interesting to notice it was released long after most of the games we consider classic - but, on the other hand, it was released nearly fifteen years ago, so I'd say it can already be considered a classic game, somehow.

I guess you guys already know this game was supposed to be part of the Double Dragon franchise until the producers failed to obtain the right to use its license - thus, the Lee brothers became the Lewis brothers, and Abobo became Abubo. Knowing this before getting to play it for the first time, I expected ROTD to be full of DD references, but it actually does feel like a completely original game - and the good thing is, it works!

While ROTD is far from being the best fighting game in the world, it's still quite good. I love how instead of making the roster look like Double Dragon mooks or bosses, the developers made each of the fighters very unique, ranging from normal people to not-so-normal people (including dragon hosts, dragon hunters and a couple that is implied to be avatars of an angel and a demon), to a British girl in a blue dress named Alice Carroll... yeah, very subtle.

Anyway, I don't know if maybe it's the way how the arcade cabinet I used to play was programmed, but ROTD was really HARD. I'm not a good player

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


Kinda sad it has to be this way. Well, Evoga went bankrupt in 2004, while Noise Factory shut down last March. Nobody knows who currently owns the rights of ROTD until now.

I remember Yasuyuki Oda has intentions to revive ROTD. However, being a "homage" to Double Dragon might ring alarm to the current rights holder of Double Dragon... Arc System Works.

I do not know if SNK and/or Arc System Works brought this up when their reps are in EVO.

I see scenarios if ROTD rights was brought up.
a) SNK gets the rights, but loses Billy, Jimmy and Abubo to ArcSys. SNK will reboot the series, but SNK will retcon them out and promote Lynn as the de facto protagonist, or give Billy, Jimmy and Abubo the Nameless treatment.
b) Arc System Works gets the rights, no legal problems.
c) SNK and ArcSys makes a deal, SNK gets the rights, loses the Lewis Brothers and Abubo, but allows to bring the Lee Brothers and Abobo as guest characters as compensation with ArcSys' blessing.





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"Re(1):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 03:45post reply

quote:
Well, it seems the discussions about World Heroes are over, so moving on...

The recent reveal of Abigail for SFV reminded me this week of Evoga's Rage of the Dragons, which looks like an interesting classic game to discuss.


I consider ROTD a great game from a graphical point of view, not on the level of GarouMOTW, but it had really big sprites, interesting character design (the priest! and the possessed girl!!) but it seems that after some point during development they decided to pad the roster with too much head swaps (at least from superficial point of view, gameplay-wise I not remember much, but I think they had at least movesets different enough).
I'm talking about the two guys in spandex and if IIRC there were also 2 girls that shared the same base sprite. And not counting the two brothers!
For the difficulty, yes, I remember it very difficult, and I never beat the final boss.
The same happened with Matrimelee, it was developed by the same people, right? (It had some ROTD characters as secret). That boss was really the worst in absolute.





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"Re(2):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 04:12post reply

quote:
I see scenarios if ROTD rights was brought up.
a) SNK gets the rights, but loses Billy, Jimmy and Abubo to ArcSys. SNK will reboot the series, but SNK will retcon them out and promote Lynn as the de facto protagonist, or give Billy, Jimmy and Abubo the Nameless treatment.
b) Arc System Works gets the rights, no legal problems.
c) SNK and ArcSys makes a deal, SNK gets the rights, loses the Lewis Brothers and Abubo, but allows to bring the Lee Brothers and Abobo as guest characters as compensation with ArcSys' blessing.


I'd LOVE any of these scenarios! Although I wonder if ArcSys would have the time for a new project (or if SNK would have budget and interest for a project not associated with KOF)...

But it would be great to see ROTD back, maybe with some more dragon hosts, more supernatural characters, maybe even some fighters looking like "Alice in Wonderland" characters to give ROTD's Alice some backstory development. And I wouldn't complain if the tag team system borrowed some features from Atlus' Groove on Fight (with the partners in the background following wherever the main characters go, defeated fighters staying on the ground, maybe even the ability to throw the unconscious people on the enemy).

quote:
I consider ROTD a great game from a graphical point of view, not on the level of GarouMOTW, but it had really big sprites, interesting character design (the priest! and the possessed girl!!) but it seems that after some point during development they decided to pad the roster with too much head swaps (at least from superficial point of view, gameplay-wise I not remember much, but I think they had at least movesets different enough).
I'm talking about the two guys in spandex and if IIRC there were also 2 girls that shared the same base sprite. And not counting the two brothers!



I guess you're talking about Radel and Oni (the two uninspired designs I mentioned), Annie and Alice (they're the only two girls I can remember that have similar height), and obviously Jimmy and Billy.

To be fair, though, each of them has different animations, different clothing (even if Radel and Oni are both wearing spandex, they're wearing DIFFERENT kinds of spandex) and different movesets, so I'm not sure if any of them could be considered a case of head swap. I don't understand much of base sprites and animations, but they look quite different from each other to me.





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"Re(3):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 05:58post reply

Radel and Oni, yes them, I think they had different movesets but some sprite were recycled between the two (like for saving time during development... it's just an impression I had at the time).
I could be wrong, but I remember having that bad impressions about them when I played the game back then.





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"Re(4):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 06:47post reply

I guess that is possible, yes. After reading your comment, I searched for some videos of ROTD, and Annie's and Alice's neutral fighting stances do look quite similar to each other (except for Annie having her arms and head raised).

Then again, Evoga did make this game with very few resources, didn't it? I don't blame the developers if they recycled some animations here and there, especially because as a whole, no two characters in ROTD look or play the same as each other. Plus, it's not like if companies like Capcom, SNK and ArcSys didn't do the same thing before (and let's not even mention Mortal Kombat's ninjas...).





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"Re(5):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Mon 31 Jul 23:10:post reply

Well, it seems the interest in talking about ROTD is over. Nevertheless, before the subject is changed, I'd only like to make one last comment about it.

One thing I find frustrating is that ROTD not only never got a sequel, but that it never got ported to other platforms, either. I wonder how popular it would have been if it hadn't been restricted to the Neo Geo... okay, since it was made by a small company, probably most people wouldn't have paid attention to it anyway (unless Evoga pushed Sonia and Cassandra on the game covers for blatant fanservice - it works for Dead or Alive, after all), but who knows... maybe someone would be interested in a fighting game with alternate versions of Double Dragon's Billy, Jimmy and Abobo, although there were already two DD fighting games. On the other hand, I don't remember any other fighting game with an alternate version of Alice in Wonderland's Alice (if only she had long, blonde hair...)...





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[this message was edited by Just a Person on Mon 31 Jul 23:12]

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"Re(6):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Tue 1 Aug 22:33post reply

quote:
Well, it seems the interest in talking about ROTD is over. Nevertheless, before the subject is changed, I'd only like to make one last comment about it.

One thing I find frustrating is that ROTD not only never got a sequel, but that it never got ported to other platforms, either. I wonder how popular it would have been if it hadn't been restricted to the Neo Geo... okay, since it was made by a small company, probably most people wouldn't have paid attention to it anyway (unless Evoga pushed Sonia and Cassandra on the game covers for blatant fanservice - it works for Dead or Alive, after all), but who knows... maybe someone would be interested in a fighting game with alternate versions of Double Dragon's Billy, Jimmy and Abobo, although there were already two DD fighting games. On the other hand, I don't remember any other fighting game with an alternate version of Alice in Wonderland's Alice (if only she had long, blonde hair...)...



When this game was released, which was also the same time as Metal Slug 4 and Sengoku 3, I was really trying my best to find this game. I even told one of the arcade owners to order the game for his four slot MVS cabinet that already had KOF 98, 99, and some other games. But I had to go the PC route.

My first impression was quite decent. I was trying to learn the mechanics it offered and to my surprise, the game didn't felt rushed or simple where it got boring fast. So I was entertained even though not passing the 4th stage with one credit and not continuing. The VS setting was pretty cool since you get to choose what stage you want, or was that training mode? Did it have training mode for AES? So I was able to see the boss stage and the boss I think. Maybe it was a debug setting I do not remember.

Anyways, the fact that the game was hard to find and it did not use a PC program that allow you to play players online like other PC programs (cough) (cough), The game didn't get the love and attention it deserved. It all boiled down to the lack of exposure really because it would have had a good size cult following. same could be said about Sengoku 3. Shit, it was like my new version of SOR!

ROTD kept me entertain for quite some time. I picked it up here and there every other day to play one credit. It was hard not being able to play with anyone though to see how challenging it could be. I think I will try to look for it again and play it.





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"Mutants, fighters and ninjas with funny masks" , posted Tue 5 Sep 03:43:post reply

Well, it's over a month since the last comment about ROTD in this thread, so I guess it's time to move to the next subject.

Since ROTD is a tag team game, I considered choosing another tag team game. For some days, I've been considering whether the new subject should be SNK's Kizuna Encounter or Capcom's X-Men vs. Street Fighter... then it occurred to me: why not talk about both??

After all, both KE and XMvSF were released the same year, which is quite a coincidence. Back then, a videogame magazine speculated if one company tried to copy the other's gimmick; today, it doesn't seem likely, since apparently the interval between their releases was quite small to give a team time enough to plagiarize the other's work. Plus, as we know, the tag mechanics is very different between these two games.

---

As for the games themselves, Kizuna Encounter's tag limitation to a specific area of the stage probably didn't do the game many favors (at least considering most tag-team fighting games that came afterwards adopted XMvSF's partner arrival from anywhere), but I must admit I loved to see the partners cheering in the background and showing their status depending on their health bars (from anxious to battle, to slightly tired, to nearly collapsing). Plus, I must admit I really like Gozu and Mezu!

I guess its weakest point was that it was really short, due to its small roster (sure, Savage Reign's Carol and Nicola weren't the coolest fighters ever, but what's the point of removing them for a game with few characters, where FOUR fighters enter the match at the same time?) and the decision to have the match ending if one fighter was knocked out, instead of continuing it until both partners were defeated (okay, TTT also does this, but at least each match had 2 to 3 rounds).

Nevertheless, it's a shame that a third Fu'un game polishing Kizuna Encounter's flaws never materialized. It was a fun game.

---

Now, for XMvSF, back in 1996 I was sure someone was lying when the first news about this game surfaced. Two huge franchises colliding in the same game? Special moves even flashier than the ones in X-Men:COTA? Tag battles with the possibility of having BOTH partners doing their Super Combos simultaneously?

It sounded too good to be true... and while nowadays it's far from impressing, I'd say all expectations back then were met. The arcade cabinet I used to play in a mall was always crowded, either with people challenging each other or beating the CPU until they were crushed by Apocalypse (at least before everyone figured out his weak points). And while the roster wasn't huge, it was nicely selected, from Gambit, Rogue and Sabretooth's debut to Cammy's return. The first defeated character repeatedly bouncing on the floor until leaving the stage was kinda stupid, though (fortunately, MSHvSF removed that).

*sigh* I really wish MvC:I can bring the same level of excitement as XMvSF did. I'm not betting on it, though.





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"Re(1):Mutants, fighters and ninjas with funny" , posted Wed 6 Sep 04:30post reply

XMvSF was, for me, the game that heralded the start of the tag fad. For awhile there it seemed every game was built using old resources but were released as a "new" game because you could control a team of two or more characters. It was like a musical style that people hate but listen to anyway because it's everywhere; tag games are the auto-tune of fighters. Eventually the sub-genre mutated into it's own thing to such an extent that games like UMvC3 share about as much common ancestry with SF4 as a hippopotamus does with a humpback whale. Still, for awhile there it felt as if every game was the same old thing but with "Tag" appended to the title.

But even for the dark days it heralded XMvSF wasn't a bad game. To be more accurate, it was good because it was sort of terrible. Even when it first came out people realized the game had issues but it was popular because it was weird, energetic, and doing something different. Sometimes being first is better than being flawless. Out of all the vs games it's the one I look back on with the most fondness because it was out there before the rules had been established.

I first played Kizuna Encounter years after the fact on a grey-market multicab so I have no old recollections of the game. I did, however, want to mention Rosa. She's one of the better designs in the game even though she's every 1996 anime cliché aggregated together Voltron style. How would the designs of Menat and Abigail have been received if they had been released in 1996? How would the Savage Reign cast be received if they came out today?







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"Re(2):Mutants, fighters and ninjas with funny" , posted Wed 6 Sep 06:31post reply

quote:
XMvSF was, for me, the game that heralded the start of the tag fad. For awhile there it seemed every game was built using old resources but were released as a "new" game because you could control a team of two or more characters. It was like a musical style that people hate but listen to anyway because it's everywhere; tag games are the auto-tune of fighters. Eventually the sub-genre mutated into it's own thing to such an extent that games like UMvC3 share about as much common ancestry with SF4 as a hippopotamus does with a humpback whale. Still, for awhile there it felt as if every game was the same old thing but with "Tag" appended to the title.

But even for the dark days it heralded XMvSF wasn't a bad game. To be more accurate, it was good because it was sort of terrible. Even when it first came out people realized the game had issues but it was popular because it was weird, energetic, and doing something different. Sometimes being first is better than being flawless. Out of all the vs games it's the one I look back on with the most fondness because it was out there before the rules had been established.

I first played Kizuna Encounter years after the fact on a grey-market multicab so I have no old recollections of the game. I did, however, want to mention Rosa. She's one of the better designs in the game even though she's every 1996 anime cliché aggregated together Voltron style. How would the designs of Menat and Abigail have been received if they had b

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


I really liked XvSF when it was new! CotA was the most gorgeous Marvel game I had ever seen, and XvSF now had an awesomely cool realization of Gambit! Rogue and Sabertooth were there, too, and that they all sounded exactly like the cartoon versions blew my mind at the time!

I was in no way good enough at fighting games to be able to say that a fighting game was a "good fighting game" by any of the standards of gameplay or balance that I would judge them by today, but the game was a bigger CotA with Street Fighter characters that now had awesomely huge special moves (Ryu's fireballs! Ryu's beam!) and could shoot into the air like in CotA, and it looked AWESOME. This meant that the game was AWESOME.

I definitely perceived CotA-style game as being a somewhat different beast to traditional SF, but since fireballs and beams are awesome, I thought it was way cooler than traditional SF. I couldn't even do launcher combos ("aerial raves") consistently, but it looked way cooler and the huge vertical stages, huge special moves, and gorgeous graphics made them way cooler to me.







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"Re(2):Mutants, fighters and ninjas with funny" , posted Wed 6 Sep 07:00post reply

quote:
UMvC3 share about as much common ancestry with SF4 as a hippopotamus does with a humpback whale.
This is the kind of post that gives this place its elegantly rusty flavour.

Even in the case of tag fighters with recycled asset like XvsSF, any new asset can give them value. I didn't know any of the X-men at the time so they were new (and uninteresting) to me, but that game also had the first return of Cammy since SSF2X, with a much better sprite to boot.
MvC1 and 2 also had a lot of original sprites to balance the recycling (most of them on the Capcom side, which I liked much more).
CvS was quite the deception for the Capcom side (only new sprites were boring characters who could have been recycled from Zero), but CvS2 went quite creative for the Capcom side instead of simply adding Rose and Alex. You could even trace SFxT's 4 characters not in SF4 to this honourable lineage. Of course, all SNK and Tekken characters were new, a huge endeavour in both cases.
The odd one is MSHxSF, which on top of being ugly, recycled all its content, and picked the most boring characters from Zero2 to add insult to injury.

Let's say MvC:I is on the lower end of that spectrum, with a shallow new-to-old-ratio, but not the lowest.







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"Re(3):Mutants, fighters and ninjas with funny" , posted Wed 6 Sep 14:58post reply

quote:
UMvC3 share about as much common ancestry with SF4 as a hippopotamus does with a humpback whale. This is the kind of post that gives this place its elegantly rusty flavour.
Truly! Ishmael's incidental jokes amdist longer commentary make the Cafe the only place worth talking about games on the internet.

This is a good topic! While X-Men vs. Street Fighter may indeed have been "pretty stupid" and the start of devilish Morrigan's sad and ironic descent into (sprite) hell, there's no denying the excitement I felt after seeing these beautiful, high visual impact games. It's probably Edayan's art if I remember correctly, but it's all so bright and rounded but clearly drawn. I never played many of these---I've played more Tekken Tag, of all the damn things---but this is the first of a line of games that deeply symbolized the temporarily reviving mystique of the arcade: not many people had Saturns and the RAM cart, meaning that there just wasn't anything at home capable of running these insane, nutty character parties. Sure, this was already evident with the awful PS1 port of Zero 2 we were stuck with, but X-Men vs. Street Fighter is the first one I can recall (am I missing one?) where literally a core game element, the tag team switch-out, could not happen at home. This resulted in the very palpable feeling of me wanting arcade machines in my house, as if there were any place to put them.





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"Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 05:46post reply

Not really reviving this thread, but I just wanted to comment that I got the chance to play Tobal 2 few days ago, and... well, I understand now why so many people here love it. It still looks and plays great, and the Quest mode is addictive!

Such a shame that Square never brought this game to the rest of the world and just abandoned this series after the second entry. This could have become one of the top fighting game franchises with proper management.





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"Re(1):Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 06:28post reply

quote:
Not really reviving this thread, but I just wanted to comment that I got the chance to play Tobal 2 few days ago, and... well, I understand now why so many people here love it. It still looks and plays great, and the Quest mode is addictive!

Such a shame that Square never brought this game to the rest of the world and just abandoned this series after the second entry. This could have become one of the top fighting game franchises with proper management.



I always found it sadly funny that while you can play your character from Quest mode in Versus, Dream Factory didn't bother to accommodate larger than normal stats. Instead, damage values wrapped around after overflowing, meaning your leveled up character could quickly end up doing less damage than the default version.

As for bringing the game to the rest of the world, Square dropped the series because it wasn't popular enough. Mind, they expected Tobal No. 1 to rival Tekken in sales. I think Ehrgeiz was pretty much their last ditch effort to create a popular fighting game franchise, and it quickly became known as "that Final Fantasy fighting game". For me Dream Factory went downhill after Tobal 2 anyway; Ehrgeiz was a pretty big let down and then things just seemed to fall apart.







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"Re(1):Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 08:17post reply

quote:
Not really reviving this thread, but I just wanted to comment that I got the chance to play Tobal 2 few days ago, and... well, I understand now why so many people here love it. It still looks and plays great, and the Quest mode is addictive!
Good man! Tobal 2 is so wonderful. I still say "con-tinue" out loud to this day, just like the announcer does. It's such a beautiful, cheerful, unique game. Its visual style accomplishes the remarkable feat of being probably the oldest 3D fighting game that still looks good today (edging out Soul Calibur 1). Remarkable feat on a PS1. I still remember how it feels to use that R1 (?) life-meter-eating energy attack, or how tactile and real the grapples and blocks feel. I know I've talked about it before, but in most fighting games, your blocked attacks go "through" your opponent, with them just taking no damage, whereas in Tobal your motion is actually cut short, like in real life. Plus, there's Emperor Udan!





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"Re(2):Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 09:01post reply

Speaking of disappointment from wasted potential in square-related fighting games, they're selling weapon packs for Dissidia NT consisting of the 4th weapons for each character apparently already available in the arcade version.

This would be less messed up if the exception wasn't Lightning, which 4th weapon can already be regularly unlocked in the home version... it was already kinda messed up that FF4 gets 3 characters right off the bath while multiple mainline games still only get one rep, but this is really starting to look like they're not planning this very well, or letting favorites of the staff skewer development priorities and the business model for this thing.

I'm probably still gonna get the Shantotto weapon because there aren't many ways to tell SE in the financial language they're supposed to understand that there's interest in XI-related stuff, and maybe Bartz' weapon(s), since that works as a reference to the general superior experience of the PSP Dissidias (and with the superior outfit that's his alternate instead of his Amano-based main one).

Seriously, I'm getting a better FF crossover experience out of the free mobile Opera Omnia, where you get stuff like reference to Cloud in drag in the Faris recruitment chapter (although they missed out on the possibility of having Setzer in there as a bit of a development history nod, but the game's timed event structure may be to blame there).

Apparently Dissidia NT will be adding story bits with Vayne in them thogh, so at least there's that.





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"Re(2):Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 09:38post reply

quote:
Good man! Tobal 2 is so wonderful. I still say "con-tinue" out loud to this day, just like the announcer does. It's such a beautiful, cheerful, unique game. Its visual style accomplishes the remarkable feat of being probably the oldest 3D fighting game that still looks good today (edging out Soul Calibur 1). Remarkable feat on a PS1. I still remember how it feels to use that R1 (?) life-meter-eating energy attack, or how tactile and real the grapples and blocks feel. I know I've talked about it before, but in most fighting games, your blocked attacks go "through" your opponent, with them just taking no damage, whereas in Tobal your motion is actually cut short, like in real life. Plus, there's Emperor Udan!



Ah, Udan, that unfairly agile bastard... He, Mufu, Nork and Mark should haverá gotten their own endings in Tournament mode.

Speaking of Mark, it's nice to see him doing his own devious schemes in Quest mode while most of the other fighters are busy in the tournament. The way the two modes intertwine kinda increases the immersion in the game world(...s).

That's a nice idea, which the developers apparently tried to replicate and expand in Ehrgeiz, with Masuda and Clair busy in a dungeon while everyone else was in the tournament. Sadly, its Quest mode is an awfully generic dungeon-crawling game (I mean, they don't even use their fighting skills!), that feels almost completely detached from Tournament mode (not to mention its frustrating short text endings on a black screen as the only reward for an extremely long and hard playthrough)...





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"Re(3):Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 12:03:post reply

quote:
Sadly, its Quest mode is an awfully generic dungeon-crawling game (I mean, they don't even use their fighting skills!), that feels almost completely detached from Tournament mode


Tobal No 1's Quest Mode was interesting. Tobal 2's Quest Mode took the concept and turned it into what could almost have been sold as its own game.

I went into Ehrgeiz with high expectations. How much more would the devs polish the formula? Would environments become more important thanks to Ehrgeiz's combat design? Would Ehrgeiz set a new standard for action Rogue-likes?

Then I played Ehrgeiz's quest mode. At first I was confused, and then I just didn't want to admit it. It wasn't "Ehrgeiz - The Rogue-like Adventure". It was an unrelated game that had been stuck on the Ehrgeiz disc in order to fill the "Quest Mode" checkbox on the feature list.

I'd say that it wasn't even a particularly fun game, but I honestly never gave it a fair shake, never touching the quest mode again after my first play. Though it honestly didn't particularly interesting or engaging in that single play, even putting the crushed expectations.


Mind, I was still a bit of a sucker for the idea of DreamFactory attempting a Rogue-like, as I would later buy Crimson Tears because it was "Action Game the Rogue-likelite". Okay, I ended up buying it out of a discount bin, because I was still gun shy. But I certainly got more than my discount bin purchase price out of it, even if I'd have been more upset at its shortcomings if I'd paid full retail.

I know that attitude didn't actually help DreamFactory's bottom line, but while they were a company that tried ideas that I wanted to see tried, they always fell a bit too far short in obvious ways after Tobal 2. Ehrgeiz traded traditional fighting game complexity for mobility and stage interaction that PS1 hardware wasn't capable of achieving; a success that wouldn't really be achieved until the next hardware generation with Power Stone. Ehrgeiz Quest Mode was a random budget release game stuck on the Ehrgeiz disc. The Bouncer had a lot of hype, which only helped it crash and burn. Kakuto Choujin did nothing to make the DreamFactory fighting engine mechanically look as good as Tobal 2, and the title being pulled from shelves was pretty much a mercy killing. Crimson Tears was fun, but it had some pretty basic design oversights and issues. From looking at a YouTube video, Appleseed EX is just Crimson Tears reskinned to be a much less interesting product?





[this message was edited by Baines on Thu 19 Apr 12:06]

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"Retro-style hits the modern" , posted Fri 27 Apr 02:26post reply

The indies-friendly standalone arcade board ExaArcadia is getting a new fighting game that can only be explained as a flashback to the 1990s.

https://twitter.com/exaarcadia/status/989405869325500416/video/1



I can't imagine throwing too many credits into this game when it's out.

...ok who am I kidding, I'll probably be on it until I see all the endings.







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"Re(1):Retro-style hits the modern" , posted Fri 27 Apr 04:20post reply

quote:
The indies-friendly standalone arcade board ExaArcadia is getting a new fighting game that can only be explained as a flashback to the 1990s.

https://twitter.com/exaarcadia/status/989405869325500416/video/1



I can't imagine throwing too many credits into this game when it's out.

...ok who am I kidding, I'll probably be on it until I see all the endings.


What's most retro about this game is that they probably aren't going to pay one cent in royalties for the likenesses they are using. Just like the good old days!

That said, I want to play this game immediately. Since it looks to have plundered the Shaw Bros. vaults and features two characters played by Sonny Chiba how could I not?





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"Re(2):Retro-style hits the modern" , posted Sat 28 Apr 18:58post reply

quote:
The indies-friendly standalone arcade board ExaArcadia is getting a new fighting game that can only be explained as a flashback to the 1990s.

https://twitter.com/exaarcadia/status/989405869325500416/video/1



I can't imagine throwing too many credits into this game when it's out.

...ok who am I kidding, I'll probably be on it until I see all the endings.


What's most retro about this game is that they probably aren't going to pay one cent in royalties for the likenesses they are using. Just like the good old days!

That said, I want to play this game immediately. Since it looks to have plundered the Shaw Bros. vaults and features two characters played by Sonny Chiba how could I not?



The hit animations are what makes it retro to me. They look slapstick, in a Jackie-Chan kind of way. Actually, there are moments in the clip when I lose track of who's hitting, who's being hit, and the whole trade of blows looks like they're dancing!





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"Discovering PI Legends in 2018" , posted Sat 19 May 06:45:post reply

Once again reviving this thread... and once again to comment a game that was already discussed here. Sorry about that.

But I just got surprised this week when I found an arcade cabinet in a bar with Power Instinct Legends (well, Gogetsuji Legends - I have no idea why Atlus localized this game yet didn't bother to adapt its title the same way the previous games were titled). I think the only game from this franchise I ever saw in a cabinet before was the first one. So, I decided to play it a little.

And a little it was, as my team never went past the third team. Man, this is a hard game! Sure, I was always quite bad at fighting games (despite loving them), but the difficulty level seems bigger in this one.

Nevertheless, it was a fun experience. It looks quite beautiful for a 1995 game - in fact, there was a KOF'95 cabinet next to it and I think Legends looks much better -, and the cast is unique even with the occasional inspirations (Reiji in relation to Ryu, Keith in relation to Terry Bogard and Annie is kinda similar to Yuri, I think). Reiji ended up being my favorite character to play, although in terms of design I love Kurara's magical girl gimmick and Sahad as a rare (possibly only) fighter from Lebanon - my great-grandfather was Lebanese, and while I'm sure their fighting styles don't involve throwing scimitars, summoning genies or morphing into parrots, he's nevertheless a cool character.

Unfortunately the arcade coins weren't really cheap to buy, so I guess I won't be visiting this bar in the near future. But it was great to experience this game, and I do intend to play it again whenever I have more money (it may take a while until it happens, though).





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"Ultimate Muscle!" , posted Wed 4 Jul 02:17post reply

Not sure if anyone else come across this game as I may be the only one who have played but I do considered this Ultimate Muscle as a GameCube classic. Anyone have experience playing?





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"Re(1):Ultimate Muscle!" , posted Thu 5 Jul 01:38post reply

quote:
Not sure if anyone else come across this game as I may be the only one who have played but I do considered this Ultimate Muscle as a GameCube classic. Anyone have experience playing?



I think I played this game intensely for two or three days to write a review. It was a lot of fun, but I never went back to it.

The one thing I remember is a guy with a knight mask saying "Time to pay, conniver!" and then mangling the opponent's arms before launching them into the air for an elaborate body-contorting slam.

It was super-memorable because I don't think I'd ever heard another human being call someone else a "conniver" as an insult before. So now I'll break out this quote once every five years with no context when the screen freezes for a super move in whatever fighting game I happen to be playing (like T. Hawk's Ultra Two). Because if you have been conniving, you need to face justice.





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"Re(2):Ultimate Muscle!" , posted Wed 11 Jul 10:55post reply

quote:
Not sure if anyone else come across this game as I may be the only one who have played but I do considered this Ultimate Muscle as a GameCube classic. Anyone have experience playing?


I think I played this game intensely for two or three days to write a review. It was a lot of fun, but I never went back to it.

The one thing I remember is a guy with a knight mask saying "Time to pay, conniver!" and then mangling the opponent's arms before launching them into the air for an elaborate body-contorting slam.

It was super-memorable because I don't think I'd ever heard another human being call someone else a "conniver" as an insult before. So now I'll break out this quote once every five years with no context when the screen freezes for a super move in whatever fighting game I happen to be playing (like T. Hawk's Ultra Two). Because if you have been conniving, you need to face justice.



Haha now that's cool. Good to know. Would be fun to play it again for it bit. It was nice at the time.





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"When a Spanish ninja could fight a bear" , posted Thu 27 Jun 02:17post reply

I'm not sure if Street Fighter X Tekken is old enough (or accepted enough) to be considered a classic fighting game, but I just felt like telling that yesterday I got to play it for the first time, in my sister's boyfriend's apartment. Before, I only knew it from YouTube videos and from the backlash it got back in the day, so I wasn't sure if playing it was a good idea... but ended up being pleasantly surprised.

Sure, the gem system is a mess (and not in a good way), but other than that, it was quite a fun experience. I was particularly shocked that, despite SF and Tekken having quite different styles (one having special moves, super combos and all that flash, the other being more down-to-earth and relying more on combos), the Tekken characters I played still felt like Tekken characters (except with some quarter-circle commands and stuff). Granted, it's well known that they lost several moves on the transition to SFxT and that's a problem for talented players - but since I always relied only on very basic moves and short combos, those changes weren't a problem to me at all. Both sides from the roster feel very different from each other, and that turned out to be very interesting.

The tag system was nice, and the Scramble Mode is a mess - but a glorious, fun mess. In the end, it's a pity that it took me so long to play it. Maybe it isn't one of the best fighting games ever released, but it's much better than I thought it would be. It's a pity that it'll probably never get a sequel... well, there's the TxSF project, but I'm not sure Harada even remembers it exists.





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"TxSF" , posted Thu 27 Jun 11:15post reply

quote:
well, there's the TxSF project, but I'm not sure Harada even remembers it exists.


Harada hasn't forgotten it. He would talk about the project every year or two, saying how he still wanted to make the game.

In 2013, Namco was shifting focus to the next generation of consoles.

In 2016, he said TxSF was put on hold due to the releases of Tekken 7 and Street Fighter V. TxSF would be in competition with those titles.

In 2018, Tekken 7 and Street Fighter V were still alive. Namco and Capcom had the same attitude about TxSF distracting from the core games.

In May 2019, Harada said that Tekken 7 with its continued success and its DLC has become a service game, which still makes it harder to justify releasing TxSF.





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"Re(1):TxSF" , posted Thu 27 Jun 21:43post reply

quote:
well, there's the TxSF project, but I'm not sure Harada even remembers it exists.

Harada hasn't forgotten it. He would talk about the project every year or two, saying how he still wanted to make the game.

In 2013, Namco was shifting focus to the next generation of consoles.

In 2016, he said TxSF was put on hold due to the releases of Tekken 7 and Street Fighter V. TxSF would be in competition with those titles.

In 2018, Tekken 7 and Street Fighter V were still alive. Namco and Capcom had the same attitude about TxSF distracting from the core games.

In May 2019, Harada said that Tekken 7 with its continued success and its DLC has become a service game, which still makes it harder to justify releasing TxSF.



In other words, it isn't getting released anytime soon, considering both Tekken 7 and SFV are still getting additional content and updates...

Well, it still has a bigger chance of coming out than Capcom making a SFxT sequel, I guess (considering their financial situation and all the backlash SFxT got).





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"Re(2):TxSF" , posted Thu 27 Jun 23:15post reply

SFxT was an odd game. There was a lot of individual pieces that were a lot of fun, such as how the Tekken characters were translated into a totally different game engine. Trouble is, the game is a mess. The gem system was rejected by players but it's baked into the game so it's impossible to fully get away from. Also, there was an x-factor style mechanic that came out when people were particularly cranky about comeback mechanics. As a consequence it was nerfed so badly it became irrelevant. Heck, I even forgot it existed until I recently looked at old character art for the game and saw the shadowy figures behind the fighters. I heard the game was eventually tuned to the point where it became decent but the game was built on so many faulty foundations that it never fully recovered. While I like it when games try something new -or are just plain messy and weird- I found SFxT to be mostly dull. That's the last thing a fighting game should be.





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"Re(3):TxSF" , posted Fri 28 Jun 00:12post reply

quote:
SFxT was an odd game. There was a lot of individual pieces that were a lot of fun, such as how the Tekken characters were translated into a totally different game engine. Trouble is, the game is a mess. The gem system was rejected by players but it's baked into the game so it's impossible to fully get away from. Also, there was an x-factor style mechanic that came out when people were particularly cranky about comeback mechanics. As a consequence it was nerfed so badly it became irrelevant. Heck, I even forgot it existed until I recently looked at old character art for the game and saw the shadowy figures behind the fighters. I heard the game was eventually tuned to the point where it became decent but the game was built on so many faulty foundations that it never fully recovered. While I like it when games try something new -or are just plain messy and weird- I found SFxT to be mostly dull. That's the last thing a fighting game should be.



Yes, the gem system is terrible.

Other than that, though, the game is really fun to play.





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"Re(3):TxSF" , posted Fri 28 Jun 01:52:post reply

quote:
SFxT was an odd game. There was a lot of individual pieces that were a lot of fun, such as how the Tekken characters were translated into a totally different game engine. Trouble is, the game is a mess. The gem system was rejected by players but it's baked into the game so it's impossible to fully get away from.


SFxT was a very mishandled game.

Gems were viewed as a pay-to-win mechanic. Capcom's defense was that the DLC gems wouldn't be stronger than the default gems, which ignored that being able to buy a wider variety of options in a competitive game is itself a pay-to-win mechanic. Regardless, I want to recall that at least one of the store-specific pre-order gems (later sold as paid DLC) was legitimately a better version of one of the default gems?

Then there was the console exclusive characters issue. The business excuse was simple; Capcom offered exclusive character deals to both Sony and Microsoft, but only Sony was willing to pay what Capcom wanted. From a gamer standpoint, the Playstation versions received five more characters that the Microsoft and PC versions didn't. Adding insult to injury is that Megaman and Pac-Man weren't even tied to Sony licenses.

Then there was the on-disc DLC character issue. The backlash here was its own kind of special mess, but that diverges into a different debate. Modders quickly enabled the DLC characters, while "legit" players were stuck waiting months for the chance to buy said characters. It was taken as an extra insult when it was announced that the Vita port, to be released a few months later, would include all the paid DLC characters for free.

Then there was the removal of mixed local+online tag matches from the Xbox version. Normally this would have been a minor issue, but in the context of everything else it was another major blow. There was the favored system argument. Sony was willing to pay extra and netted five exclusive characters (and the Vita netted all DLC chars for free); Microsoft didn't pay and saw one of its promised gameplay modes removed. There was the on-disc DLC argument. Capcom didn't have the time or resources to complete an advertised mode for the Xbox version, but had the time and resources to make all those DLC characters were ready well in advance. There was Capcom's general silence about negative issues. Knowing well in advance that they'd decided to drop the mode from the Xbox release, Capcom wouldn't openly confirm the removal until after the game's release. It was even still listed in the game's manual, causing additional confusion as people tried to figure out how to access the missing feature. Capcom wrapped up this whole avoidable disaster by confirming that they would not patch the missing feature into the Xbox version at a later date.

And those are just the highlights. There were various other planning and PR missteps, such as dataminers finding apparent evidence that Capcom planned to sell additional custom combo slots.




All of that is before you even get to how the game itself played.

Which was... kind of okay? Honestly, I think the Tekken characters detracted from the game. I don't know that the Tekken characters transitioned to SFxT's pseudo-SF inputs particularly well. Playing them didn't feel like playing a Tekken character, but it didn't feel like playing an SF character either. And once converted to SFxT, they were all so similar. A handful of Tekken characters might have been okay, but this was half the roster.

As for the highly controversial gems, for a feature that was allegedly integral to the design and balance of the game, they felt like a thrown-together excuse to sell more DLC. The individual gems didn't feel balanced or even particularly well thought out. (Fighting EX Layer IMO did a much better job of the idea.) It is more a morbid curiosity that makes me wonder what the competitive scene (and the game itself) would have looked like a year after release if gems had been openly embraced.





[this message was edited by Baines on Fri 28 Jun 01:58]



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"Re(4):TxSF" , posted Fri 28 Jun 03:02post reply

Good grief, I forgot how many problems SFxT had. The drama surrounding the game was more tension filled than any match that took place in the game.

quote:
It is more a morbid curiosity that makes me wonder what the competitive scene (and the game itself) would have looked like a year after release if gems had been openly embraced.


Looking back on it I wonder how anyone at Capcom thought this game was going to get embraced. Twiddling around on a gem select screen is not what anyone is looking for in a fighting game.







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"Re(5):TxSF" , posted Fri 28 Jun 20:35post reply

I really liked several of the Tekken character's versions in this game. Some of them were really creative, I liked them much more than the SF4 characters and I would have liked to see them in a good game. I'm still surprised SF5 didn't just borrow more out of them to make new characters (there has been some loans, like Abigail and Ed, but many of the more interesting movesets are still missing, like Jin, Christie, Bob or Lei).
The 2013 patch and rebalance made the game a lot better, however it turned the game into a battle of the lamest of the lame. Most of the high-level matches ended up in time up or close to it. IT was impossible to watch.

Also, like MvCI, no patch in the world could have salvaged this horrifying art style. It seemed impossible to make a game uglier than SF4, but Capcom really overdid themselves. And that was even before the dumb neon colors and the glow of the gems when they were active. Just horrible all around.

It's still a game I don't mind turning on from time to time to spend some time with the Tekken characters in training or against the CPU, just to imagine what could have been.





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"Re(6):TxSF" , posted Fri 28 Jun 22:31post reply

quote:
I really liked several of the Tekken character's versions in this game. Some of them were really creative, I liked them much more than the SF4 characters and I would have liked to see them in a good game. I'm still surprised SF5 didn't just borrow more out of them to make new characters (there has been some loans, like Abigail and Ed, but many of the more interesting movesets are still missing, like Jin, Christie, Bob or Lei).
The 2013 patch and rebalance made the game a lot better, however it turned the game into a battle of the lamest of the lame. Most of the high-level matches ended up in time up or close to it. IT was impossible to watch.

Also, like MvCI, no patch in the world could have salvaged this horrifying art style. It seemed impossible to make a game uglier than SF4, but Capcom really overdid themselves. And that was even before the dumb neon colors and the glow of the gems when they were active. Just horrible all around.

It's still a game I don't mind turning on from time to time to spend some time with the Tekken characters in training or against the CPU, just to imagine what could have been.



Really?! Wow, I think both SFIV and SFxT look pretty good, actually.

Maybe that's a subjective matter, I guess. I know many KOF players love XIII's sprites (to the point where many of them complained about XIV abandoning them and moving on to 3D graphics), for instance, and I think they look horrible.





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"Re(7):TxSF" , posted Sun 30 Jun 00:43post reply

quote:
Really?! Wow, I think both SFIV and SFxT look pretty good, actually.


I...I can’t help you there.

Just kidding (kind of). I find it a bad look, though I think it’s possible to have something that’s very well-animated or expressive, even while the designs or style are extremely ugly. I’d definitely put SFIV and SFxT in that category!





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"Re(8):TxSF" , posted Sun 30 Jun 02:24post reply

I'm about to pour one out after thinking "ah, I wish TOXICO were here for us to ask about how he'd translate Tekken characters into a 2D fighting game!"


I really do think one of the things that Tekken does really well is that in spite of the enormous and occasionally nonsensical movelists that characters have, which often allow you to play characters in a big variety of very different ways, each character in Tekken still has a distinct gameplay identity. Feng has every tool except for EWGF, and yet Feng is distinct from other jack-of-all-trades characters like Leo and Jin. I think that some SF characters attempted to have that well-rounded style; as Polly often said, "Karin feels like an SNK character". In SFA3, Karin had one of the most enormous sets of tools of any character in the game, with counters, rekkas, flying overheads, anti-air supers, a command grab, a ground overhead, rekkas that could transition into frametrap/high-low/counter, etc. And yet in spite of a character who could "do it all" moreso than like 90% of the cast, she was still distinctly "Karin".

An inverted look at the question is also illuminating: rather than asking how do characters with such wide-ranging sets of moves manage to be distinct, instead we ask how is it that such an enormous variety of highly purposeful moves that every character has not entirely homogenize the cast? For instance, every character in Tekken 7 has a "command throw" in addition to the "regular" throw, every character has a basic standing launcher, every character has at least one counter-hit combo starter, every character has screw moves, every character has tracking moves, every character has a 10F jab, every character has a mid that gives frame advantage, every character has at least one move that doesn't knock down on normal hit but will wallsplat on normal hit, etc. All of these sound really quite specific, and every character has them, so how do these characters manage to maintain their unique gameplay identities given that they all have some version of these highly specific moves? It'd be like how does Zangief be unique if everybody in the game had a 360 grab and a spinning lariat? On top of that, everybody in the game needs to be able to fight at point-blank or near-point-blank range (until Noctis, I guess), and fights often stay at those two ranges for extended periods of time. With that additional differentiator removed, it seems like it should be even harder for them to seem at all distinct; it feels like the game would be Melty Blood (sorry!)

---

I actually think the TxSF characters are all well-executed in their animation and appearance even if you don't like the SF4 art style. I don't HATE the SF4 art style, but I don't love it. I like how caricaturishly expressive the characters all are, which is something they often don't get to be in Tekken outside of the console endings.

I think one of the things I dislike about TxSF is that the whole "plink at them with safe moves but any hit converts into combo damage because of chain combos and tag-in and how like everything is cancellable" combined with "every character deals the same amount of damage with their normals" leads to a gameplay style that is homogeneous and that loses its taste fast. Even though later patch versions solved the problem of things not dealing enough damage (recent matches of TxSF which yes i too am amazed that people still seriously play this game) show a gameplay with big damage combos, but since there are neither interesting defensive systems nor general movement options that allow for interesting maneuvering, the game doesn't manage to be so interesting.





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"GranBlue Fantasy launch date announcement" , posted Wed 10 Jul 21:14post reply

Granblue Fantasy's launch date is expected to be announced next month August 3 at GrandFes, says Gamespot.

More accurately I believe they're talking about the next GrandFest Extra Fes that's doing a national tour right now. Possibly thinking of announcing things near-simultaneously with Evo. Perhaps.







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"Re(1):GranBlue Fantasy launch date announceme" , posted Fri 12 Jul 02:07post reply

quote:
Granblue Fantasy's launch date is expected to be announced next month August 3 at GrandFes, says Gamespot.

More accurately I believe they're talking about the next GrandFest Extra Fes that's doing a national tour right now. Possibly thinking of announcing things near-simultaneously with Evo. Perhaps.



I've tried playing GBF, but it feels rough in ways that are certainly tied to it being a website, nevermind from being 6 years ago. The sudden black loading screens on everything hurt my eyes, how the different menus connect to one another is sometimes baffling, etc.

But The Maydays story was hilarious even if I hadn't been acquainted with over half its characters, and somebody clearly had a blast writing it and drawing those sharks!





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"Mike Tyson didn't know M.Bison" , posted Wed 17 Jul 09:49post reply

quote:
I've tried playing GBF, but it feels rough in ways that are certainly tied to it being a website, nevermind from being 6 years ago. The sudden black loading screens on everything hurt my eyes, how the different menus connect to one another is sometimes baffling, etc.

But The Maydays story was hilarious even if I hadn't been acquainted with over half its characters, and somebody clearly had a blast writing it and drawing those sharks!



I never really thought about the black loading screens since I just play it on Chrome (no need to install that app really), but yes it's certainly a web browser game and being 5 years old is starting to show its age. The menus connect awkwardly too but basically you'll be using the main index and the upper corner "menu" button for the most part.

The events is what makes Granblue fun! The translations are pretty well done that switching the game setting between JA and EN kind of works as a nice textbook for anyone wanting to study modern translation/localization methods.



And now for a historically fascinating fighting game news tidbit,

Iron Mike didn't know about Mike Bison for all these years.

Seems like he likes Mariokart.







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"Re(1):Mike Tyson didn't know M.Bison" , posted Wed 17 Jul 12:07post reply

quote:
I've tried playing GBF, but it feels rough in ways that are certainly tied to it being a website, nevermind from being 6 years ago. The sudden black loading screens on everything hurt my eyes, how the different menus connect to one another is sometimes baffling, etc.

But The Maydays story was hilarious even if I hadn't been acquainted with over half its characters, and somebody clearly had a blast writing it and drawing those sharks!


I never really thought about the black loading screens since I just play it on Chrome (no need to install that app really), but yes it's certainly a web browser game and being 5 years old is starting to show its age. The menus connect awkwardly too but basically you'll be using the main index and the upper corner "menu" button for the most part.

The events is what makes Granblue fun! The translations are pretty well done that switching the game setting between JA and EN kind of works as a nice textbook for anyone wanting to study modern translation/localization methods.



And now for a historically fascinating fighting game news tidbit,

Iron Mike didn't know about Mike Bison for all these years.

Seems like he likes Mariokart.



Holy cow. He finally saw his clone after a long while. Amazing.





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"SNK's attempt at realistic fighting" , posted Mon 11 Nov 23:05post reply

It may be weird to open the discussions for a game I never played, but recently I ran into a video of a Buriki One tournament and it got me more interested than I thought I'd be...

From what I know, this game was far from successful; and to be honest, I disliked it when it was announced for a series of reasons: it was presented in videogame magazines as an AOF sequel but Ryo was the only returning fighter, the game controls sounded very confusing (moving with buttons and attacking with the joystick??), the playable roster didn't have a single woman, and so on.

While the controls still seem weird to me, I sorta can see now why some of the other decisions were made. SNK was going for a more realistic fighting game, and judging from the videos I found of Buriki One, they apparently succeeded in that: even with a small roster, they managed to represent a good variety of martial arts (even tai chi, which despite being incredibly popular worldwide - though more as a relaxation sport than a martial art -, has very little representation in fighting games), and most of them seem to be quite accurate. Ironically, Ryo's karate is probably the weak link; the idea of keeping some of his AOF special moves makes him look weird fighting the other (more grounded) characters... and as a former karate practitioner, I'm a little disappointed with it.

The more realistic setting is nevertheless interesting, with rules looking closer to real-life matches and an acceptable height for the ring-outs. And it also makes sense that there are no female fighters, as intergender matches are quite uncommon in real-life tournaments - still, it would be very nice if Buriki One could have a bonus mode with a smaller, female-only division (I wouldn't even mind if they recycled the same martial arts from the male fighters), like in the WWE games (or in that obscure Yu Yu Hakusho GBC game with a comical bonus mode featuring Keiko, Botan and the fox-youkai referee).

Anyway, Buriki One's lack of popularity seems to put it on the end of the line for SNK's franchises waiting for a revival, and it probably will remain forgotten. Still, for a company better known for flashy, animesque fighting games, it looks like a surprisingly refreshing change.

---

Now, has anyone here played it? If so, please share your experiences!





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"Re(1):SNK's attempt at realistic fighting" , posted Tue 12 Nov 02:35post reply

One thing which I find really interesting from what I've watched about Buriki One and which is reflected in Arc Sys' current efforts (and arguably in some other games, like Rage of the Dragons or Tekken) is that ring out is not a winning condition, but rather a "reset to neutral" condition.

What this means in particular in relation to those other games mentioned is that the traditional fighting game concept of being cornered and being in a uniquely bad position compared to midscreen where you are subjected to more sustained offense/higher damage combos/sustained okizeme is entirely removed: if you get entirely "cornered", you get ring out'd and reset to the middle of the arena. This is further different from Tekken's infinite stages, because the ring out puts a hard limit on how far apart the two fighters can back up from each other before it again ring outs them and sets them back to a fixed starting position.







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"Re(1):SNK's attempt at realistic fighting" , posted Wed 13 Nov 01:34post reply

quote:
It may be weird to open the discussions for a game I never played, but recently I ran into a video of a Buriki One tournament and it got me more interested than I thought I'd be...

Thanks for the video! It's always good to see matches from this oddball game.

While the movement and playing field are certainly unique what struck me when watching the video was all the advertisements. It makes sense for a sports tournament to have ads everywhere but it made me wonder why SNK decided to use actual brands instead of using imaginary brands like "Boos Coffee" or whatever. Did SNK get permission, or advertising revenue, for these in-game signs? Or was Buriki One still operating under the old punk rock rules of videogames where things were stolen from pop culture without permission? Is this one of the first games to feature actual products?







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"Re(2):SNK's attempt at realistic fighting" , posted Wed 13 Nov 03:02post reply

quote:
Is this one of the first games to feature actual products?



While not specific products, Pole Position (1982) used real company names and logos for its billboards. These included such companies and Marlboro, Pepsi, Canon, Marchal, and Martini.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFs1Xc82Q0U

It feels like 1983 was the year of games themselves as ads. The original arcade Tapper presumably saw you serving Budweiser beer; the game was sponsored by Anheuser-Busch and featured the Budweiser logo both in-game and in the cabinet design. Kool-Aid Man received two games, one for Intellivision and another for Atari 2600. Purina sponsored Chase the Chuck Wagon for Atari 2600. Meanwhile, Coca Cola sponsored Pepsi Invaders, which was given to sales convention attendees.







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"Re(3):SNK's attempt at realistic fighting" , posted Thu 14 Nov 02:38post reply

quote:

While not specific products, Pole Position (1982) used real company names and logos for its billboards. These included such companies and Marlboro, Pepsi, Canon, Marchal, and Martini.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFs1Xc82Q0U

It feels like 1983 was the year of games themselves as ads. The original arcade Tapper presumably saw you serving Budweiser beer; the game was sponsored by Anheuser-Busch and featured the Budweiser logo both in-game and in the cabinet design. Kool-Aid Man received two games, one for Intellivision and another for Atari 2600. Purina sponsored Chase the Chuck Wagon for Atari 2600. Meanwhile, Coca Cola sponsored Pepsi Invaders, which was given to sales convention attendees.


It's impressive and a little scary that people had figured out that the popularity of videogames could be used for advertising as early as 1983.

I forgot all about the real-life billboards in Pole Position. The most detailed things in that game are the player's car, the explosion and the free advertising on those indestructible billboards. Smoke 'em if you got 'em kids because you're probably going to die in a fireball the moment you get behind the wheel of an extremely fragile care anyway.





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"Re(4):SNK's attempt at realistic fighting" , posted Wed 20 Nov 23:02post reply

One other thing I forgot to comment is that, judging from the videos on YouTube, fighting styles based on grabs and throws (judo, aikido, wrestling) do seem to put a great emphasis on these kinds of moves in Buriki One, even more than in Tekken, DOA and VF. It seems that the fighters with these styles can't really do much before getting close to their opponents (while in the other games mentioned, you can always punch and kick regardless of your martial art), but once they're close they become much more powerful.

It's also nice how it features both a pro-wrestler (kinda common in fighting games) and a Greco-Roman one (much more unusual, despite being the one shown at Olympic games), and their moves and techniques are visibly very different from each other. Not to mention Gai using MMA before UFC even became a worldwide phenomenon.

You know, if SNK ever manages to put Buriki One for sale digitally or as part of a collection, I'd be very tempted to buy it. But as it's very unlikely this will ever happen, I just hope eventually its other fighters can follow Gai's and Silber's footsteps and find their way into the KoF series (which is also very unlikely).





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"Re(5):SNK's attempt at realistic fighting" , posted Thu 21 Nov 04:12post reply

quote:

You know, if SNK ever manages to put Buriki One for sale digitally or as part of a collection, I'd be very tempted to buy it. But as it's very unlikely this will ever happen, I just hope eventually its other fighters can follow Gai's and Silber's footsteps and find their way into the KoF series (which is also very unlikely).



I would love that just to try those games, as Neo Geo 64 distribution was almost inexistent, I don't know how many people outside of Japan ever saw even one machine.

But if I remember correctly SNK losts the source code of some of those NG64 games, or probably I'm making confusion with some other developer/games.







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"Re(6):SNK's attempt at realistic fighting" , posted Thu 21 Nov 21:41post reply

quote:
But if I remember correctly SNK losts the source code of some of those NG64 games, or probably I'm making confusion with some other developer/games.



A fair amount of commercial emulation releases are dependent upon the freeware emulation community. Some are quite literally repackaged freeware emulators, while others are still based on freeware community work.

The problem with the NeoGeo 64 is that freeware emulation efforts pretty much abandoned it years ago due to lack of information and lack of interest. It is a complex (and apparently confusingly designed) system, with only seven games to test against. It has a very small niche audience and emulation coders just don't seem interested in the system either. There apparently is little documentation about the system's hardware, and the documentation that exists is only in Japanese?





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"GBF Versus DLC char announcements" , posted Mon 16 Dec 11:25:post reply

While SFV had its tournament this past weekend, Granblue Fantasy also had its three-day event at Makuhari Messe and my LINE was ringing since the morning from friends to meet up albeit I couldn't make it due to schedules. Definitely next year...!

So aside from all the missed fun there, they also had the most recent near-complete build of Granblue Fantasy Versus together with new trailers. The surprise announcement was that Belial and Beelzebub (aka 'Bub') from the mainspring RPG will be playable in season 2 and 1 respectively; Bub in particular is a bit of a surprise since he never really showed out of his cloak in the original storyline and wasn't much but a rag doll boss. On the other hand, Belial was quite a fruitcake from the getgo as a lust-lover that stopped at no bounds to seek pleasure and he quickly became a fan favorite regardless of player gender; no surprise to see him in this game.

Season 1 will also bring the fan favorites Narmaya, Soriz, Djeeta and one more unrevealed char from March to April, which is a pretty short span that brings about the question of "then when's season 2?"

Trailers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nIDPE5QsR0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJfHQML2VHQ

Footage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsWjt4ZqH34
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLu-4wKUaE3jvVkJkilka2wycZUz8sSMDU

From seeing the new footage, hard knockdowns have been taken out for the most part while running speed has been improved, so the overall game momentum (which was the issue from beta) should be faster than before for sure. I'm very unsure of who to main with since they all look pretty good.


On a side note, one of the new characters unveiled for the mainspring RPG during the event has been coined by players as "Babuu" since she's very clearly a female take on "Bub" but with a baby pacifier ,,, wait what?





[this message was edited by Professor on Mon 16 Dec 19:30]



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"Re(1):GBF Versus DLC char announcements" , posted Mon 16 Dec 23:31post reply

Announcing two seasons worth of DLC for GBF before the game has even released left a bad taste in my mouth. I know the game is designed to primarily cater to the gatcha crowd but I didn't realize the producers would include a similar pricing structure for the characters to make the whales feel at home.





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"Re(2):GBF Versus DLC char announcements" , posted Tue 17 Dec 02:17:post reply

quote:
Announcing two seasons worth of DLC for GBF before the game has even released left a bad taste in my mouth. I know the game is designed to primarily cater to the gatcha crowd but I didn't realize the producers would include a similar pricing structure for the characters to make the whales feel at home.



I agree so too that the game is catered towards GBF players than the fighting game crowd-- all the trailers thus far were released at GBF events, not fighting game events. To note though, the pricing structure for the game is very different, albeit the announcement structure on the other hand is quite similar. With Granblue Fantasy, plans get announced months and sometimes nearly a year in advance while they're still in early stages of development, primarily because the game's annual schedule is tightly knitted. Given that the crowd is used to announcements made in that fashion, it's not too surprising that the same was done with their debut console title.





[this message was edited by Professor on Tue 17 Dec 02:23]



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"Re(3):GBF Versus DLC char announcements" , posted Tue 17 Dec 03:12post reply

quote:
Announcing two seasons worth of DLC for GBF before the game has even released left a bad taste in my mouth. I know the game is designed to primarily cater to the gatcha crowd but I didn't realize the producers would include a similar pricing structure for the characters to make the whales feel at home.


I agree so too that the game is catered towards GBF players than the fighting game crowd-- all the trailers thus far were released at GBF events, not fighting game events. To note though, the pricing structure for the game is very different, albeit the announcement structure on the other hand is quite similar. With Granblue Fantasy, plans get announced months and sometimes nearly a year in advance while they're still in early stages of development, primarily because the game's annual schedule is tightly knitted. Given that the crowd is used to announcements made in that fashion, it's not too surprising that the same was done with their debut console title.



Let's put it this way, if you clear the story mode you get a bunch of in-game currency in GBF to do gacha pulls with.

So GBF Versus the base game is heavily discounted/maybe even free if you are a person that already pays money for in-game currency in GBF.

I don't really know how that affects the overall bottom line for the company, but I wouldn't be surprised if this makes it one of the best-selling fighting game launches in Japan in a while just because of that.

I also agree totally with Professor that the way they've announced stuff is very MMO/gacha-ish and that fans salty about "THE CONTENTS AREN'T ON THIS DISC!!! CUT CONTENT FOR DLC!!!" are not the primary audience they are targeting.





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"Re(4):GBF Versus DLC char announcements" , posted Tue 17 Dec 05:10:post reply

quote:
I don't really know how that affects the overall bottom line for the company, but I wouldn't be surprised if this makes it one of the best-selling fighting game launches in Japan in a while just because of that.


It probably won't beat the historical record made by Jojo ASB's launch (albeit Jojo did miserably otherwise) but I think it'll come in at 2nd place. By rough calculation the standard edition of GBVS comes with at least 25,600JPY worth of free stuff for players and I think there's a likelyhood that some hardcores will buy the game together with a console on launch and then sell them off as soon as they beat the game or after the DLCs get released and they get them for the bonus skins.

The big problem will probably come when some players don't read the fine print and realize they can't get the bonuses by just picking up the game; you need a console since you need to log in with a PSN account and get it tied to your GBF account.





[this message was edited by Professor on Tue 17 Dec 05:17]



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"Re(5):GBF Versus DLC char announcements" , posted Tue 17 Dec 05:38post reply

quote:
By rough calculation the standard edition of GBVS comes with at least 25,600JPY worth of free stuff for players



Wow, that is a large number!
How was that arrived at? Surely it isn't just 25,600 yen worth of crystals or whatever....





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"Re(6):GBF Versus DLC char announcements" , posted Tue 17 Dec 06:39:post reply

quote:
By rough calculation the standard edition of GBVS comes with at least 25,600JPY worth of free stuff for players


Wow, that is a large number!
How was that arrived at? Surely it isn't just 25,600 yen worth of crystals or whatever....



- As a purchase bonus the game gives you either a Gold Brick, Sunlight Stone, or Sephira Evolite. The cheapest way to get a gold brick coupon until now was by picking up Vol1&2 of マナリアフレンズ on Bluray which totals to around 15,840 JPY. But with Granblue Versus everyone will be picking the Sephira Evolite instead because it's relatively new and never been offered as a purchase bonus. By quick calculation on how many in-game items you need for it compared to a Gold brick, its value comes to around 17,600 JPY.

- Beating the game, you get 5000 Gems + bonus skin(or 3000 Gems), so that's a total of 8,000 Gems = 8,000 JPY.


---
1/ On a side note, in GBF you use 3000 Gems to do a set of 10 rolls. As a safety net, doing 300 rolls will let you get a character you want, so the max that you'll be spending would be 3000x300 = 90,000 JPY.
2/ Every few months there's a special ticket that lets you get a character you want for 3,000JPY, excluding some limited broken ones. For the less-insane, this is where they spend their money. Or to put it another way, rolling the gasha is mainly for getting the limited broken characters.
2/ You get about 600 free rolls worth of Gems per year and there's also various campaigns that gives you probably around 400 free rolls, so the game doesn't actually eat that much money unless you're gasha-happy.





[this message was edited by Professor on Tue 17 Dec 13:03]



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"Re(7):GBF Versus DLC char announcements" , posted Wed 18 Dec 06:43post reply

quote:
As a safety net, doing 300 rolls will let you get a character you want, so the max that you'll be spending would be 3000x300 = 90,000 JPY.
Is that... generous...?
*faints*

Also, is it possible to get several of those by buying several copies of the game? Like the AKB 48 scam that had people buy tons of CDs for the tickets and then dump them all away?





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"Re(8):GBF Versus DLC char announcements" , posted Wed 18 Dec 06:57:post reply

quote:
As a safety net, doing 300 rolls will let you get a character you want, so the max that you'll be spending would be 3000x300 = 90,000 JPY. Is that... generous...?
*faints*

Also, is it possible to get several of those by buying several copies of the game? Like the AKB 48 scam that had people buy tons of CDs for the tickets and then dump them all away?



Generally speaking, a 90,000 yen ceiling would be considered standard or generous for SNS gasha games. FGO for example doesn't have a ceiling and either does Puzzle and Dragons from what I understand.

Still though, leave aside hardcore players that have money to burn or life problems to escape, I don't really hear of players that roll that crazily. Yet they do exist, and they're the core income that feed the devs. (Meanwhile, more casual fans will just pick up the 3000yen character tickets and spend more of their money into merchandising)

The bonuses for GBF can only be redeemed once per account. Same with any other coupons that come with books, Mcdonalds meals, beef bowls, etc.





[this message was edited by Professor on Wed 18 Dec 07:31]



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"Re(9):GBF Versus DLC char announcements" , posted Wed 18 Dec 08:58post reply

quote:
As a safety net, doing 300 rolls will let you get a character you want, so the max that you'll be spending would be 3000x300 = 90,000 JPY. Is that... generous...?
*faints*

Also, is it possible to get several of those by buying several copies of the game? Like the AKB 48 scam that had people buy tons of CDs for the tickets and then dump them all away?


Generally speaking, a 90,000 yen ceiling would be considered standard or generous for SNS gasha games. FGO for example doesn't have a ceiling and either does Puzzle and Dragons from what I understand.

Still though, leave aside hardcore players that have money to burn or life problems to escape, I don't really hear of players that roll that crazily. Yet they do exist, and they're the core income that feed the devs. (Meanwhile, more casual fans will just pick up the 3000yen character tickets and spend more of their money into merchandising)

The bonuses for GBF can only be redeemed once per account. Same with any other coupons that come with books, Mcdonalds meals, beef bowls, etc.



One of my friends who over his entire time with the Fire Emblem gacha game spent like 600 dollars effectively spent as much money on that one game as he would have if he had bought every FE title that had been released in North America at that point in time.

Even if you aren't a megawhale, if you spend 20 dollars on whatever in the mobile game every other month, you will still have spent more than you would have on purchasing the average packaged AAA title.

As a business model, gacha so stupendously outperforms regular packaged software if you manage to acquire a decent spending userbase that it's pretty amazing. However, it's also entirely possible that you fail to acquire that regular spending userbase as countless titles have, and you wind up with a dead game. It's also arguable that this is not really that different from making a packaged game that just didn't sell, though I don't know if anybody has ever deeply studied relatively unsuccessful titles for a comparison.

Subscription software that also involves a packaged purchase (e.g. MMORPGs) have the best of both worlds in this regard, in that they recoup costs from the purchase and again get money from subscription fees. Gacha has no real ceiling on spending provided you have enough things for people to gacha on, so it allows people to give you a lot MORE money if they are inclined to. "Free to pay".

I feel like psychologically, "voluntary" spending is something that people can get into much more easily than "mandatory" spending. People for literal decades have complained about how they "can't play this game without being FORCED to spend X dollars each month on subscription!!!" whereas voluntary spending is "Because I WANT TO I will spend X dollars on this monthly ticket".

FGO having no "sparking" mechanic (i.e. spend X amount on the current banner and then you will get 1 selection from it of your choice) in addition to have a rapacious rate for the super super rares (like 0.1%) is something that will always amuse me that its players don't demand change with, especially given how every other game has concessions to players for it. I guess players are just so invested in it now that they would actually be angry if newcomers got it easy, because it would devalue what they have!







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"Re(10):GBF Versus DLC char announcements" , posted Thu 19 Dec 07:34post reply

I feel left behind with GBF. Others are willing to spend money and eat beef bowls regularly to supplement their time with the game. However, when I played the GBF I found I couldn't spend another second listening to that flying lizard thing squawk at me. Maybe when you get to the latter portions of the game that "adorable" pet quits yammering through every cut scene.





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"Re(2):Re(10):GBF Versus DLC char announcement" , posted Thu 19 Dec 08:59:post reply

quote:
I feel left behind with GBF. Others are willing to spend money and eat beef bowls regularly to supplement their time with the game. However, when I played the GBF I found I couldn't spend another second listening to that flying lizard thing squawk at me. Maybe when you get to the latter portions of the game that "adorable" pet quits yammering through every cut scene.



Haha, similarly to that dolpin in MSWord, the flying lizard will be stitched to you throughout your whole journey in GBF, not only in the main storyline but with collaboration campaigns etc. Not as much as in the first few chapters since more characters start appearing and taking up more of the conversation, but still.

It's quite amuzing how in-game gasha is so accepted albeit everyone knows how broken the money-eating system is, but it comes so naturally for Japan since the traditional (not broken) physical machines are so common in daily life. Once you step out, you'll be walking past a dozen or two without even realizing it. And yes on average they're also 300yen per roll

Come to think, there might be a relationship between region and gasha expenditure since traditionally there's less entertainment available in the countryside than the city, and for that reason Pachi and rental shops were more popular in rural areas back in the less digital days.





[this message was edited by Professor on Thu 19 Dec 10:45]



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"Re(3):Re(10):GBF Versus DLC char announcement" , posted Sat 21 Dec 05:33post reply

I actually like Vyrn! I like his design a lot what with his sharp claws and hands/feet that are like a combination of a bird and a cat!





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"Re(4):Re(10):GBF Versus DLC char announcement" , posted Sat 21 Dec 05:55:post reply

quote:
I actually like Vyrn! I like his design a lot what with his sharp claws and hands/feet that are like a combination of a bird and a cat!



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"Like VF2, but... bouncy" , posted Thu 20 Feb 21:03post reply

This month, I got the chance to play the first Dead or Alive game on the Saturn for the first time. Having always loved the DOA games for the possibility of exploring the stages with multiple areas (accessed by knocking your opponent into them) and the anime-style cutscenes between fights revealing more of each fighter's motivation, I had no idea if the game that came before these things were implemented would be any fun.

Turns out, it was! I always read that DOA was originally inspired in the Virtua Fighter franchise, but DOA1 literally resembles VF2 - actually, if Sega and Tecmo decided back then to make a Fighters Megamix-style crossover between them, they would fit with each other even better than VF2 did with Fighting Vipers. The graphics, the gameplay, everything is so similar.

And yet, DOA1 does have its own identity. While both are relatively realistic martial arts games, DOA1 is much flashier in its moves (Jann-Lee and Kasumi being the main offenders, the former with his shrieks and flying kicks, the latter with some quite "suggestive" attacks), the Hold button adds a lot to the strategy (while admittedly making it much easier to reverse attacks), and the Danger Zones are both useful for strategy and for the flashy style (to the point I don't even know why it also has ring-outs; most fights move to the Danger Zones but very few of them reach the ring edges before one fighter gets their health bar completely depleted).

Then, of course, there are the infamous bouncy breasts... which are much more perceptible here than in the later games (probably because the graphics aren't so detailed). Back then, this was probably very arousing... nowadays, it's so hilarious that we decided to keep this option on just for fun!

My only complaint is that I really missed Ayane and Bass (I forgot they were only added on the PS1 version, one year later). Despite neither of them being among my favorite DOA characters, they would make the roster feel more "complete" than having just 8 fighters. I read somewhere that the Training Dummy girl in Training Mode is actually supposed to be Ayane (as she has this costume in some later games), but it's not the same thing.

Oh well, it's a minor complaint. In the end, it was quite an enjoyable experience, simple but very fun! Have any of you guys also played this game? If so, what did you think of it?





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"Re(1):Like VF2, but... bouncy" , posted Fri 21 Feb 05:54post reply

Lucky you, it's always fun to come across an old game! DoA1 is an interesting game. Even though it is VF2 with a bit of paint on top the identity of the DoA games was already on display. The characters still have their signature moves and most of them even sound the same. The danger zone thing is more silly than anything else but it suggests that even then the series was interested in more dynamic stages.

Aren't there at least four versions (arcade, Saturn, PS1, XBOX) of DoA1? People claim that DoA goes overboard with costumes but it's variant releases of the same game is where the series really goes nuts.





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"Re(2):Like VF2, but... bouncy" , posted Fri 21 Feb 10:42post reply

quote:
Lucky you, it's always fun to come across an old game! DoA1 is an interesting game. Even though it is VF2 with a bit of paint on top the identity of the DoA games was already on display. The characters still have their signature moves and most of them even sound the same. The danger zone thing is more silly than anything else but it suggests that even then the series was interested in more dynamic stages.

Aren't there at least four versions (arcade, Saturn, PS1, XBOX) of DoA1? People claim that DoA goes overboard with costumes but it's variant releases of the same game is where the series really goes nuts.



Yes, from what I read, there are five versions:

- DOA1 - Arcade (the game that introduced the world to lady fighters with bouncy breasts)
- DOA1 - Saturn (a little downgraded from the Arcade version, but with some extra modes, lots of additional costumes for the girls and one or two extra costumes for the guys)
- DOA1 - PlayStation (basically a remake with different graphics, different stages, slightly different gameplay, Bass on the default roster, Ayane as an unlockable character, no more ring-outs and more additional costumes though some from the Saturn version are missing)
- DOA ++ - Arcade (based on the PS1 game, but with better graphics, Ayane available from the start, no more load time and only four costumes per character, some of which were brand new)
- DOA Ultimate - Xbox (basically the Saturn version - yes, even with the same graphics and no Ayane and Bass -, only with better definition)

The PS1 version seems to be when the series started to deviate from its VF-inspired origins; by the time DOA2 came out, despite being made on the same board as VF3, the two games are very different from each other.





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"Re(3):Like VF2, but... bouncy" , posted Fri 21 Feb 13:44post reply

quote:
Lucky you, it's always fun to come across an old game! DoA1 is an interesting game. Even though it is VF2 with a bit of paint on top the identity of the DoA games was already on display. The characters still have their signature moves and most of them even sound the same. The danger zone thing is more silly than anything else but it suggests that even then the series was interested in more dynamic stages.

Aren't there at least four versions (arcade, Saturn, PS1, XBOX) of DoA1? People claim that DoA goes overboard with costumes but it's variant releases of the same game is where the series really goes nuts.


Yes, from what I read, there are five versions:

- DOA1 - Arcade (the game that introduced the world to lady fighters with bouncy breasts)
- DOA1 - Saturn (a little downgraded from the Arcade version, but with some extra modes, lots of additional costumes for the girls and one or two extra costumes for the guys)
- DOA1 - PlayStation (basically a remake with different graphics, different stages, slightly different gameplay, Bass on the default roster, Ayane as an unlockable character, no more ring-outs and more additional costumes though some from the Saturn version are missing)
- DOA ++ - Arcade (based on the PS1 game, but with better graphics, Ayane available from the start, no more load time and only four costumes per character, some of which were brand new)
- DOA Ultimate - Xbox (basically the Saturn version - yes, even with the same graphi

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


ohhh. I didnt know DOA ultimate was based on Saturn version. Long time I played and didnt remember much. It was quick and fast for me.





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"Re(4):Like VF2, but... bouncy" , posted Fri 21 Feb 21:05post reply

quote:
ohhh. I didnt know DOA ultimate was based on Saturn version. Long time I played and didnt remember much. It was quick and fast for me.


Yes, it was; apparently it was Itagaki's favorite version.

But it's odd that it didn't get any extra feature (well, other than the possibility of online matches), not even the inclusion of Ayane and Bass, while Dead or Alive 2 Ultimate (which was part of the same package) was pretty much a remake of DOA2, giving it DOA3 graphics, including Hitomi and some extra costumes.





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"Re(2):Like VF2, but... bouncy" , posted Sat 22 Feb 01:28:post reply

quote:
Lucky you, it's always fun to come across an old game! DoA1 is an interesting game. Even though it is VF2 with a bit of paint on top the identity of the DoA games was already on display. The characters still have their signature moves and most of them even sound the same. The danger zone thing is more silly than anything else but it suggests that even then the series was interested in more dynamic stages.

Aren't there at least four versions (arcade, Saturn, PS1, XBOX) of DoA1? People claim that DoA goes overboard with costumes but it's variant releases of the same game is where the series really goes nuts.



The original DOA1! That was a wonderful game and top-notch graphics for its time back in 1996. Actually, I attended its public debut presentation but never had the opportunity to write about it on the MMCafe's pages because it was a year before the site's debut. To this day, every time I pass by the back street of Shibuya BEAM (the building with Mandarake) it brings back flashbacks since it was held there, hosted with Gamest staff helping out on the explanations of gameplay-- the good old days.

IIRC the game was developed with full support from Sega since it was the first time a third-party showed interest in developing a game for the Model 2 platform. But of course the game's 's usage of polygon morphing was probably far from what Sega expected to see on their hardware.





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"Re(1):Like VF2, but... bouncy" , posted Sat 22 Feb 03:31post reply

quote:
This month, I got the chance to play the first Dead or Alive game on the Saturn for the first time.

Then, of course, there are the infamous bounc

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --



I had it for Saturn when it came out. I loved that "floaty" feeling; since I already loved VF. My younger self also found the female characters interesting. I spent many hours "studying" their models.





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"Re(2):Like VF2, but... bouncy" , posted Sat 22 Feb 03:34post reply

quote:
I spent many hours "studying" their models.







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"Re(3):Like VF2, but... bouncy" , posted Sat 22 Feb 21:10:post reply

quote:
I spent many hours "studying" their models.




Oh dear...

Just as an additional observation, I guess the similarities between DOA1 and VF2 became more evident to me because we played VF2 earlier on the same day, back-to-back. But I must admit it is a much deeper game which I don't dominate (my friends easily destroyed me in VF2; in DOA1 at least I managed to win two or three matches), which is why I decided to focus just on DOA. I think VF2 would benefit more in this topic from the analysis from someone who is more familiar with it.


EDIT: one more thing worthy to note in DOA1 was Tecmo's idea of using Ryu Hayabusa as part of the roster. From what I read, the male ninja was originally meant to be an original character named Kamui, but he was later changed into Hayabusa.

The ironic thing is that Tecmo probably did it as a way to attract the attention of people who knew the Ninja Gaiden series... except Hayabusa ended up pretty much ignored next to the bouncy girls. But DOA's popularity would later lead to the very successful revival of the Ninja Gaiden series - which, in turn, helped to boost the popularity of the DOA series. In the end, the original goal paid off - just not in the intended videogame generation.





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"Re(3):Like VF2, but... bouncy" , posted Wed 26 Feb 22:08post reply

quote:
The original DOA1! That was a wonderful game and top-notch graphics for its time back in 1996. Actually, I attended its public debut presentation but never had the opportunity to write about it on the MMCafe's pages because it was a year before the site's debut. To this day, every time I pass by the back street of Shibuya BEAM (the building with Mandarake) it brings back flashbacks since it was held there, hosted with Gamest staff helping out on the explanations of gameplay-- the good old days.

IIRC the game was developed with full support from Sega since it was the first time a third-party showed interest in developing a game for the Model 2 platform. But of course the game's 's usage of polygon morphing was probably far from what Sega expected to see on their hardware.



That's nice to know!

Are you talking about the Arcade version of DOA1? Because I never got to play it, but watching some videos of it, it looks more different from VF2 than the Saturn version (mainly in terms of the camera angles and the size of the characters on the screen).





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"Back to the Millennium Fight days" , posted Thu 2 Apr 22:26:post reply

I must confess I intended to make a fake story for April 1st about Capcom and SNK announcing a crossover game... which wouldn't be CvS3, but a SFvsKOF, riding on the popularity of both Street Fighter V and King of Fighters XIV. Then I realized: we already had a SFvsKOF game, the often forgotten Capcom vs SNK: Millennium Fight 2000.

Of all crossovers between these two companies, CvS1 was always the one I paid least attention. SvC:MotM, for the NGPC, always amazes me with how fantastic it was for a handheld game (I mean, it's actually better than many arcade games). CvS2 pretty much marked a generation of fighting game fans, with its huge roster and plenty of Groove options. SVC Chaos is... well... a bad game with great ideas. But for a long time, CvS1 felt quite forgettable to me, like a lazy work which was then used as a draft for the actual great crossover it should have been.

It was only a couple of months before that I got to play it again and appreciate it for what it was. Thus, this post is intended to reflect on CvS1's right and wrong ideas. Get ready, folks, it's going to be a long text (and most of my opinions may be rubbish, so please forgive me in advance)...

---

The roster

One of the things that disappointed me back in 2000 was how conservative the roster was. Despite being titled "Capcom vs SNK", it was basically "Street Fighter vs The King of Fighters, featuring Raiden, Nakoruru and Morrigan" - and considering that many years later both Raiden and Nakoruru became official KoF characters, Morrigan is really the only character not affiliated to either series (that is, unless Capcom adds her in a future season of SFV, which wouldn't really surprise me at all).

Not only that, but at least on Capcom's side, there wasn't even a selection of street fighters from different games, it was basically SFII + Sakura, Cammy and Akuma. I mean, I'm not sure most players were actually eager for Blanka, Honda or Dhalsim... I know I wasn't. SNK's side, at least, had some curve balls (King, Vice, Benimaru and the aforementioned Raiden) and characters from different years in KoF - if I'm not mistaken, that was actually the first time Geese and Rugal were playable in the same game - although it also had some notable omissions (Athena, Leona and Billy Kane being the ones that come to mind).

With all of that said, I recently warmed up a lot to this roster. Back then, I missed seeing people like MegaMan, Strider-Hiryu, the Metal Slug mercenaries and so on... but now I feel that these characters just wouldn't work: MvC may feel great due to all of its craziness, but CvS's appeal was exactly pitting the greatest martial artists from both companies. In that sense, I like that all characters feel like they belong in this game. Well, except Morrigan. Plus, the unlockable EX versions of most of them made things more interesting in terms of match-ups.

But yeah, there still could have been some more variety, which fortunately came in CvS2 while still keeping the roster consistent (something I think SNK failed to do in SvC Chaos).



The sprites

I also had a problem with the sprites back then. It wasn't just the disappointment with the laziness in reusing the sprites from the majority of the Capcom side, it's the fact that while the SNK sprites were made in the SF Alpha style, they still looked different. This was particularly odd considering how MvC2 had SF sprites, DS sprites, Marvel sprites, original sprites and everyone still looked like they belonged to the same game.

Strangely though, when I replayed CvS1 this year, this impression was much lessened. There are still some moments when it seems like they used sprites from two different games, but most of the time, I felt they fit together nicely.

Again, except for Morrigan's, of course. I love the DS sprites, but hers still feels very out of place in CvS. Oh well.

The gameplay

Now THAT's something I loved then and still love now. Many people may disagree (and that's fine), but to me, the KoF roster feels exactly like they did in their original games, and that's quite an achievement. A huge expectation for CvS1 was the possibility of pitting the SF fighters against the KoF ones to find out how they would fare against each other, and this game did make it possible.

Then again, I was never a pro player in either the SF games or the KoF ones. But as an eternal noob, I do think Kyo plays like Kyo, Ryu plays like Ryu and so on. That's something I missed in SvC Chaos, where the Capcom fighters I played with were all different.

And then there were the Grooves, bringing most of the classic mechanics from the SFA games and KoF'94-96. Here, I gotta admit I prefer CvS1's simplicity with one Groove for each company, both easy to learn, than CvS2's six-to-eight Grooves, each with very different rules and properties. But that's just a matter of personal taste.

As for the Ratio System, it wasn't my favorite, to be honest. In theory it was interesting how players could assemble teams with different numbers of characters and had to decide whether they preferred a bigger team of weaker fighters or a smaller team with more resistant ones. But it also made the characters feel uneven in terms of their individual chances against each other. In that sense, I prefer the alternative mode where ALL characters were in Ratio 2 and the matches were between pairs.

The art

Nishimura AND Shinkiro providing art to the same game? AMAZING!!

And as hypocritical as this may sound after my earlier complaint about the differences in characters' sprites, for some reason I LOVE the CvS1 flyer where it looks like each character was drawn by a different artist. Then again, that's a piece of art, not a game.

In terms of game art, the stages look great, and their little introductions are quite cool (my favorite is the one that starts as an 8-bit racing game).

Overall

In the end of the day, CvS2 may be vastly superior than its predecessor, but sometimes I do prefer CvS1's simplicity. Not the most remarkable fighting game ever, but it is fun enough to revisit every once in a while.





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[this message was edited by Just a Person on Mon 18 May 22:11]

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"Re(1):Back to the Millennium Fight days" , posted Fri 3 Apr 03:27post reply

quote:
I must confess I intended to make a fake story for April 1st about Capcom and SNK announcing a crossover game... which wouldn't be CvS3, but a SFvsKOF, riding on the popularity of both Street Fighter V and King of Fighters XIV. Then I realized: we already had a SFvsKOF game, the often forgotten Capcom vs SNK: Millennium Fight 2000.

Of all crossovers between these two companies, CvS1 was always the one I paid least attention. SvC:MotM, for the NGPC, always amazes me with how fantastic it was for a handheld game (I mean, it's actually better than many arcade games). CvS2 pretty much marked a generation of fighting game fans, with its huge roster and plenty of Groove options. SVC Chaos is... well... a bad game with great ideas. But for a long time, CvS1 felt quite forgettable to me, like a lazy work which was then used as a draft for the actual great crossover it should have been.

It was only a couple of months before that I got to play it again and appreciate it for what it was. Thus, this post is intended to reflect on CvS1's right and wrong ideas. Get ready, folks, it's going to be a long text (and most of my opinions may be rubbish, so please forgive me in advance)...

---

The roster

One of the things that disappointed me back in 2000 was how conservative the roster was. Despite being titled "Capcom vs SNK", it was basically "Street Fighter vs The King of Fighters, featuring Raiden, Nakoruru and Morrigan" - and considering that many years later both Raiden

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --

I agree. I prefer CvS1. They put in a lot of work on the music, stages, and user interface layout. Indeed the sprites and fighting system did take a hit. But, that was all fixed on the PRO version. This is where I wish CvS2 was rushed and should have not been released at least for another year. PRO made the game much stable with extras. It was the perfect product.

This is why I said CvS2 was rushed, mainly to fix the fighting system balance and add more characters and Grooves. Lets be real, CvS2 music and stages were not great compared to CvS1 in my opinion. Sprites were all over the place also.

CvS1 should have had more life in the scene to become a classic title then a major hit. That is what it was aimed for initially. I believe it would have had a small fighting game scene afterwards like other games. But it got put in the back burner quickly. The PRO version could have have it a longer life and people would have played it.

I miss playing it and love the game. Still play music from the game from time to time. I think if anything, there should have been a small story or dialogue like Svc chaos. I was expecting some close interaction with the characters. Try the PRO version on Dreamcast if you haven't. Joe and Dan is there for comedy.





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"Re(2):Back to the Millennium Fight days" , posted Fri 3 Apr 09:45post reply

The things I liked about CvS1 were:

The backgrounds

The epilepsy inducing select and win screens

The weird Ikeno art with fishface Guile and coked-up Evil Ryu

The complaints that Capcom was lazy with recycling when the initial game has 17 new character sprites

Otherwise the game was a bit of a mess. The ratio system was a love it or hate it idea but locking characters into a ratio was a terrible idea. The 3v3 fights of KoF are easy to understand so I don't know why Capcom decided to add unnecessary complexity.

Speaking of unnecessary, the EX characters were horrible across the board. Either characters felt like they were cut in half or were so similar there was little point. Using it as an excuse to experiment with characters wasn't a bad idea (like Dictator) but 90% of the cast didn't need this. The unlocking system on the DC was terrible as well.

I seem to recall that the game had weird balance issues but I don't recall much about that aspect.

That said, I did really like the novelty and presentation of CvS1. I wish there was a third game that incorporated good points of both games... and figured out a way to make it so that matches weren't twenty minute slogs.

quote:
I think if anything, there should have been a small story or dialogue like Svc chaos. I was expecting some close interaction with the characters.

I wish there was a re-release of a lot of these old games with accurate Japanese translations. For example, I know that the Japanese version of CvS2 had a lot dialogue that didn't make it into the English version.







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"Re(3):Back to the Millennium Fight days" , posted Fri 3 Apr 12:14post reply

I'm on the flip side of thinking that the locked Ratio idea was really cool on paper, and the idea that you'd get a gang of runts to try to take on boss characters who were so powerful that they felt like bosses but had the constraint of needing to do it with little backup seems cool.

Let's not forget that this was near the tail end of an era where Capcom and SNK had been locked in a decade-plus war of adding new gimmicks every game for fear of the game not standing out from the crowd. The game development zeitgeist is almost the opposite of what we have today with a lot of the games-as-a-service, where incremental additions are the order of the day rather than "this game has tagging! Oh yeah, this game has flying robots!" etc. I think in that atmosphere, if it merely had KOF's "pick three characters", the game would've been derided as lazy and unimaginative.

I think the backgrounds of CvS1 are really outstanding, and to me made the game feel like it was indeed from a new generation of technology. I really liked all the Capcom sprites of the SNK characters from the get-go, though.

I also cannot overstate how much I love FINEST KO.
Getting a special KO flash for that is so fantastic and I can't believe they didn't keep something like that around for more games. Yeah sure at a competitive level a KO is a KO and some counterhit super KOs are anticlimactic ("Wow, that character never stood a chance. What a surprise..." kinda thing), but at a casual level FINEST KO is HYPE AF







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"Re(4):Back to the Millennium Fight days" , posted Sat 4 Apr 01:50post reply

Looking back on it, I find it interesting how much more successful Tekken Tag 1 was when compared to CvS1. TT1 was possibly the ugliest, laziest looking game I have ever seen released in an arcade. However, the tag mechanic -which was quite fashionable at the time- was well implemented and made it a hit. The endless grooves that other fighters were exploring made them more complex but didn't necessarily make them better.

quote:
I also cannot overstate how much I love FINEST KO.

FINEST KO was the best! That little bit of showmanship is vital to making a game fun. I still remember a CvS2 match where I was Geese and my friend was Sagat. He tried to chip me with a super but I caught him with a counter. When the FINEST KO came on the screen he sat there dumbfounded for a second because he thought it was for his super win but Sagat was laying flat on the floor. Now that's how to make a memorable moment.







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"Re(4):Back to the Millennium Fight days" , posted Sat 4 Apr 11:14post reply

quote:
I'm on the flip side of thinking that the locked Ratio idea was really cool on paper, and the idea that you'd get a gang of runts to try to take on boss characters who were so powerful that they felt like bosses but had the constraint of needing to do it with little backup seems cool.


The idea of the ratio system was okay enough on paper. It was just that Capcom had zero chance of properly balancing it.

Locking characters to specific ratios was also an idea that was okay on paper. Its execution however limits player freedom and expression. The point limit renders many team combinations impossible, due to the desired characters costing too much. On the flip side, if you only want to focus on a single character, then you'd better hope that character is one of the three Ratio 4 options. If you happen to favor a Ratio 3 character, then you are stuck picking some Ratio 1 character as filler. It is arguably even worse if your favorite is a Ratio 1 character. Add to this that Capcom wasn't going to be able to properly balance the characters and you've suddenly got a bunch of characters being underpowered (or overpowered) just because of the ratio they were designed to be in.





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"Re(5):Back to the Millennium Fight days" , posted Sun 5 Apr 00:26post reply

quote:
The idea of the ratio system was okay enough on paper. It was just that Capcom had zero chance of properly balancing it.

Locking characters to specific ratios was also an idea that was okay on paper. Its execution however limits player freedom and expression. The point limit renders many team combinations impossible, due to the desired characters costing too much. On the flip side, if you only want to focus on a single character, then you'd better hope that character is one of the three Ratio 4 options. If you happen to favor a Ratio 3 character, then you are stuck picking some Ratio 1 character as filler. It is arguably even worse if your favorite is a Ratio 1 character. Add to this that Capcom wasn't going to be able to properly balance the characters and you've suddenly got a bunch of characters being underpowered (or overpowered) just because of the ratio they were designed to be in.



Exactly. In that sense, CvS2 was a huge improvement, allowing you to either play as a single character, or to assemble a three-characters team without ratios, or even to keep the ratio system but choose which ratio to assign to each character (although it no longer had the option of a four-characters team with all of them as Ratio 1, if I remember correctly).





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"Re(6):Back to the Millennium Fight days" , posted Fri 17 Apr 12:00post reply

quote:
The idea of the ratio system was okay enough on paper. It was just that Capcom had zero chance of properly balancing it.

Locking characters to specific ratios was also an idea that was okay on paper. Its execution however limits player freedom and expression. The point limit renders many team combinations impossible, due to the desired characters costing too much. On the flip side, if you only want to focus on a single character, then you'd better hope that character is one of the three Ratio 4 options. If you happen to favor a Ratio 3 character, then you are stuck picking some Ratio 1 character as filler. It is arguably even worse if your favorite is a Ratio 1 character. Add to this that Capcom wasn't going to be able to properly balance the characters and you've suddenly got a bunch of characters being underpowered (or overpowered) just because of the ratio they were designed to be in.


Exactly. In that sense, CvS2 was a huge improvement, allowing you to either play as a single character, or to assemble a three-characters team without ratios, or even to keep the ratio system but choose which ratio to assign to each character (although it no longer had the option of a four-characters team with all of them as Ratio 1, if I remember correctly).


All good points from everyone. I think the ratio system was odd at the time because it was different and fresh compared to other fighters. Something that could have kicked off well. It didn't bother me much. I thought it was neat from what I remember. Not sure if Pro version had a mode with no ratoo implemented like im CvS 2.

It did have good special introduction for some characters. Guile and Rugal gave you that brutal feeling before the fight. Stages were very detailed and wonderful I can't stress it enough. I would have love if we had more Art of Fighting stages where there is interaction within area. Where the fighting causes the in process construction of the dojo to collapse. It just felt so proper and exciting at the time.

The plaza may also be my favorite but Nakoruru stage just had something that made you want to stare with no fighting going on for a bit. One thing I also like was you can play the original songs of the character/stages. That is where me and my friends truly discovered the original Pao Pao Cafe song from fatal fury. I only played fatal fury 2 untill that time. That Pao Pao Cafe song had us Rollo all over we couldn't get enough of it.

Speaking of which, not sure if I asked before here on Cafe but what language is the singer singing in this theme? Some say possibly Brazilian Portuguese.





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"Re(7):Back to the Millennium Fight days" , posted Sat 18 Apr 22:19:post reply

quote:
All good points from everyone. I think the ratio system was odd at the time because it was different and fresh compared to other fighters. Something that could have kicked off well. It didn't bother me much. I thought it was neat from what I remember. Not sure if Pro version had a mode with no ratoo implemented like im CvS 2.


Both Pro and the vanilla CvS had a mode with no ratio, titled Pair Match mode, where you could make a team of any two fighters you wanted (it was even possible to make a pair with the same fighter, like Ryu & Ryu). In CvS vanilla, this mode was unlockable (if I'm not mistaken, by beating both Morrigan and Nakoruru in their secret matches), but I think it was available from the beginning in the Pro version.

(I wonder if Capcom would be better off using the MvC tag battle system in CvS instead of the ratio system... probably not, but it could be interesting)





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[this message was edited by Just a Person on Tue 12 May 23:00]