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Professor
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"Weekly classic fighting game thread II Turbo" , posted Sun 30 Apr 15:19:post reply

Summer has com... wait a sec, it's still SPRING!?
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[this message was edited by Professor on Sun 30 Apr 15:41]

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Professor
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"Re(1):Weekly classic fighting game thread II " , posted Sun 30 Apr 15:41post reply

Previous post from Toxico:


Do you recognize this man?

Do you recognize this man? = a cool anecdote if you're interested in Capcom staff shenanigans in in today's CapcomTV stream.



Spoiler: So it's the producer of Daigyakuten Saiban! He used to be a programmer and worked on SF2 back then.





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"Re(2):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Sun 30 Apr 17:27:post reply

quote:
Previous post from Toxico




Best fight of the week-end at the ARMS invitational tournament of Chōkaigi.





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[this message was edited by chazumaru on Mon 1 May 05:04]

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"Re(3):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Thu 4 May 05:08post reply

Man this is sad.

Apparently legendary 3S player, Kuroda, is going through severe depression and wishes he'd never even picked up video games. A bunch of his fans are trying to think of ways to cheer him up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappa/comments/6921av/operation_saving_kuroda/

I'm neither Japanese nor a professional e-sports player (athlete??), but I think when strangers on the internet start plotting ways to bring you out of your funk, that's gotta count for something!






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"Re(4):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Thu 4 May 21:11post reply

Having a low self steem is pretty terrible, I have to endure with that myself, so I can understand his pain.

It seems like kuroda had a terrible childhood, his father was missing and his mother treated him terrible.

Also, I could see why dedicating some of his best years to play videogames competitivly could be demoralizing on your later years, specially when those games don't have big monetary rewards like other e-sports games, also, if you lack some social skills, it is really an uphill battle

I hope that at least the internet support could help him a bit, and that his closer friends could support him through this hard times





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"JEAN vs RYOKO" , posted Sun 7 May 19:16post reply

WHAAAT there was a 9v9 team battle between FRANCE and JAPAN on Fighter's History Dynamite @Mikado this afternoon!? I feel bad for missing this live.





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"Re(1):JEAN vs RYOKO" , posted Sun 7 May 22:19post reply

quote:
WHAAAT there was a 9v9 team battle between FRANCE and JAPAN on Fighter's History Dynamite @Mikado this afternoon!? I feel bad for missing this live.


I have no idea how this happened but I'm so glad it did.





Professor
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"Re(4):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Mon 8 May 02:25post reply

quote:
Man this is sad.

Apparently legendary 3S player, Kuroda, is going through severe depression and wishes he'd never even picked up video games. A bunch of his fans are trying to think of ways to cheer him up.


Kuroda actually received professional help on his depression and even got support from one of his friends by making money while having his situation covered on Weekly Playboy magazine online. Unfortunately I don't think support from overseas fans will help him because it has quite a bit to do with his financial situation; he comes from a broken family and his alcoholic mother has a pathological money spending issue, so whatever he makes disappears really quickly through paying back her debts. He's not in good physical shape either because he doesn't spend money on himself. He needs to change his enviornment to alleviate some causes of his depression but he doesn't seem to be forwardgoing to taking those steps.



quote:
WHAAAT there was a 9v9 team battle between FRANCE and JAPAN on Fighter's History Dynamite @Mikado this afternoon!? I feel bad for missing this live.


This is so surreal! Thanks for the link.





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"Re(5):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Thu 11 May 03:21post reply

Kuroda, fighting.

About the FHD team tournament,

Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
I was taking a look at it and I almost constantly hear the two commentators overlapping, even when listening from one earphone only. Hmpf, this is what you get when you force certain microphone-equipped earphones bundled with phones on a device from a different manufacturer. I even taped the mic button because sound would be horrible otherwise xD

End of Spoiler







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"Re(4):Weekly classic fighting game thread II" , posted Mon 5 Jun 02:58post reply

quote:
Man this is sad.

Apparently legendary 3S player, Kuroda, is going through severe depression and wishes he'd never even picked up video games. A bunch of his fans are trying to think of ways to cheer him up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappa/comments/6921av/operation_saving_kuroda/

I'm neither Japanese nor a professional e-sports player (athlete??), but I think when strangers on the internet start plotting ways to bring you out of your funk, that's gotta count for something!



Daigo's stream recently ran the Kuroda Hug Project. Daigo and Fuudo never struck me as social butterflies but Kuroda is a good sport for playing along.





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"Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Wed 14 Jun 00:01post reply

Well, let's discuss more classic fighting games, shall we?

I still plan to bring the Power Stone series here someday, but it was just after Toxico passing away that it occurred to me that the World Heroes games were never discussed in the first thread, was it? So, why not discussing it now?

When I was a kid, these games felt like a Street Fighter wannabe, but now I can appreciate them more for several reasons:

- The historical figures: sure, I knew Janne and Rasputin were inspired in Jeanne d'Arc and Grigori Rasputin, but only over a decade later I learned that pretty much ALL of the characters are inspired in either historical figures (even Brocken apparently was supposed to be a cybernetic version of Hitler, before ADK felt it would be too risky), remarkable athletes or heroes from tales;

- The wrestling references: from Muscle Power being a Hulk Hogan lookalike from the bell sounds whenever a character was knocked out, it's cool to see how many wrestling references were in these games. The Death Match mode in WH and WH2, now I know, took a page from some Japanese wrestling matches, which would really involve gimmicks like a ring surrounded by barbed wire or (allegedly) electrified cables, or the loser having his hair shaved off. Sure, some traps in this mode would probably never be allowed in a real-life match, but it's still a cool reference. Also notable is the Tournament mode in WH2 Jet;

- The improvements from one game to the other: I'm not sure if any of the WH games was ever advanced in regards to its Capcom and SNK competitors, but it's nice to see how much it evolved. From a first game with a small roster and remarkable only due to the Death Match mode, it got a huge increase in the number of characters in WH2, then Jet (whose name makes it seem like a simple upgrade of WH2) adds several gameplay mechanics, three new bosses (unfortunately at the cost of the two from the previous game, one of whom sadly didn't even get to return in the final installment - then again, Geegus wasn't that remarkable, was he?) and a completely revamped Arcade mode, and finally Perfect adding Super Combos (and "Super Super Combos") and Gokuu - a great addition for anyone familiar with the Monkey King tale or with the Dragon Ball series.

That's what I could remember now, but I'm sure you guys have a lot more to contribute to it. It's sad that the person who could contribute the most to this discussion isn't here anymore, but I'm sure he'll enjoy it and perform the obscene voodoo teleport dance from above.





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"Re(1):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Wed 14 Jun 16:14:post reply

In memory of Toxico.

To this day, I still wonder if he wandered into this site thinking that it's the Mudman's Cafe.


When it comes to the World Heroes series, World Heroes 2 is the must-talk title in the series. It was actually the third fighting game that I played in my life following Street Fighter 2 and Fatal Fury 2, and it was probably a good thing because its nuttyness might've traumatized me for life had it been my first experience.

The characters for the most part were total oddballs-- a mostly naked Shaman with a huge flat head, an eerie magician with Cossack kicks and a huge magical finger flick for an antiair, an American Footballer who keeps shouting "ALMOND SHOT!" for his projectiles.. very memorable even to this day. Al Capone was one of the characters considered for the series. Not sure why he wasn't thrown in, but then again the developers seemed to have their own sense of standards. And of course, let's not forget about Brocken. I'm still surprised he wasn't censored in the American release, considering that even M.U.S.C.L.E. for the NES had its Brocken (different character) swapped with another skin.

WH2's game systems were quite groundbreaking for its time compared to SF or FF, which unquestionably explains how the game was able to dethrone those titles in the income rankings in Japan. Throw reversals and projectile reversals really made the game exciting where SF sort of felt bland, especially since those were back in the days when throwing from a jump-in was considered "cheap" by some people. You rarely hear that sort of house rule nowadays, but back in the yesteryears we were still kids. And throw reversals were a great way to say "hey, you're just not skilled enough!" (Although we now know that the player who started the throw would eventually win after 6 reversals!)

Projectile reversals were a cool idea too, maybe even going a bit overboard. It almost looked like a glitch when you'd block Captain Kid's shark and it'd fly straight down underneath the ground. But that's what made the game so fun.

And who in their right mind came up for the stages in this game? The normal stages are fine, but the death matches are just crazy-- fighting outside a faulty power plant with electric shocks zapping all over the place, fighting in a ring with spikey walls and oiled floor, and of course the skinhead death matches! Those were the days when game developers actually took the time to draw different lose poses for special losses. Those days will be missed.

So with all of that, I was extremely excited when World Heroes 1 was released for the SNES and it was a day-1 buy for me. Needless to say my disappointment couldn't be made to words when I played and discovered that the prequel to 2 had none of that interesting stuff and played like a Street Fighter clone.

World Heroes 2 was fun, but in today's standards it certainly wasn't a balanced game, just that people didn't play so hardcore back in those days and there was no internet to spread around gameplay videos. The sequels were more balanced, but it unfortunately also meant that they were nowhere as fun. After all, World Heroes 2 was a game where the developers left some stuff just because they "looked cool", like Shura's Muai-tai kick where he'd jump out of the screen and come falling down after a few seconds-- it was a actually a parameter glitch.

I don't have much recollection of Jet except that it didn't last too long in the arcades. Perfect was a game I played a bit and although it didn't have anything innovative the way that 2 did, its additional graphics did the game justice, and by lord, Zeus must've been one of the most broken characters in fighting game history if only the CPU wasn't so braindead (when used by a human, he's a monster). One of the last stages in the game is Shibuya, and it's kind of funny how the real location still looks similar to the stage even after two decades!



...Come to think, the death matches must've been inspired by the Pro-wrestling scene in Japan back then where they had the really bloody death matches. It sort of makes sense since it's around the time when the Tokyo Dome was built in the middle of the city and its popularity helped as a multiplier effect to Japanese pro-wresting. That was around the time when Japan had some of the craziest wrestlers like Atusuhi Onita and Tiger Jeet Singh.





[this message was edited by Professor on Wed 14 Jun 16:58]



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"Re(2):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Sat 17 Jun 01:28:post reply

quote:
In memory of Toxico.

To this day, I still wonder if he wandered into this site thinking that it's the Mudman's Cafe.



xD

I would like to clarify a detail as to Toxico ... his favorite saga of SNK / Neo-Geo was Samurai Shodown, in fact, I remember that he had a love / hate relationship after playing quite a long time in the IV game, with only Seeing the arcade machine from afar he shouted 'United State, damn Sogetsu!', Which at the time seemed funny and strange at the same time. Of course he ended up preferring the following sequels to be more balanced or less broken.

In a moment of nostalgia and because most of us remembered them with affection, we had a reunion with several sagas, among them World Heroes, in particular the 2. And thus began the relationship between Toxico and the charismatic evil Hukashaka, and all that analysis Exhaustive (although he liked to play with Rasputin). During the fighting game boom most of us lacked mental maturity and we did not have a retro culture, we all used to compete in the popular arcade of the moment. Toxico certainly did not give the attention that deserved to the saga of World Heroes for lacking of competitive scene, and spent the years in its eagerness to find a balanced game had to be fascinated with the version Jet / Perfect.

I doubt that you can recognize his voice but I leave you a video recorded in 2008, long before we had a game capture.

Https://youtu.be/Wcn6Si7dxnI


By the way, I do not know what the subject is about but I had to clarify that point and say that you need a topic about relevant similarities or interesting references... you know, serious fun.





[this message was edited by Sousa on Sat 17 Jun 02:32]

Professor
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"Re(3):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Tue 20 Jun 09:01post reply

quote:
I would like to clarify a detail as to Toxico ... his favorite saga of SNK / Neo-Geo was Samurai Shodown, in fact, I remember that he had a love / hate relationship after playing quite a long time in the IV game, with only Seeing the arcade machine from afar he shouted 'United State, damn Sogetsu!', Which at the time seemed funny and strange at the same time. Of course he ended up preferring the following sequels to be more balanced or less broken.


Samurai Shodown!? Well that's interesting, thanks for the clarification. I used to play SS1 a lot with friends, starting the games off with a clash and just going fist to fist for the fun of things. Only 20 years later did we learn that mashing buttons during the clash had no meaning because the winner was totally randomized.

Btw Sousa, regarding that World Heroes video on your channel-- Karatsu actually contacted me last month about Toxico passing away. Toxico was previously referring to him as his Tekken Waifu, lol.







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"Re(4):Toxico would probably like this one..." , posted Tue 20 Jun 16:54:post reply

quote:

Btw Sousa, regarding that World Heroes video on your channel-- Karatsu actually contacted me last month about Toxico passing away. Toxico was previously referring to him as his Tekken Waifu, lol.



Exactly, hahaha ... Karatsu was his rival and friend whom he could never win in a Tekken tournament. Toxico used to teach him to play retro 2D fighting game.





[this message was edited by Sousa on Tue 20 Jun 17:02]

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"From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE GAME!" , posted Wed 19 Jul 02:42post reply

Well, it seems the discussions about World Heroes are over, so moving on...

The recent reveal of Abigail for SFV reminded me this week of Evoga's Rage of the Dragons, which looks like an interesting classic game to discuss. It's interesting to notice it was released long after most of the games we consider classic - but, on the other hand, it was released nearly fifteen years ago, so I'd say it can already be considered a classic game, somehow.

I guess you guys already know this game was supposed to be part of the Double Dragon franchise until the producers failed to obtain the right to use its license - thus, the Lee brothers became the Lewis brothers, and Abobo became Abubo. Knowing this before getting to play it for the first time, I expected ROTD to be full of DD references, but it actually does feel like a completely original game - and the good thing is, it works!

While ROTD is far from being the best fighting game in the world, it's still quite good. I love how instead of making the roster look like Double Dragon mooks or bosses, the developers made each of the fighters very unique, ranging from normal people to not-so-normal people (including dragon hosts, dragon hunters and a couple that is implied to be avatars of an angel and a demon), to a British girl in a blue dress named Alice Carroll... yeah, very subtle.

Anyway, I don't know if maybe it's the way how the arcade cabinet I used to play was programmed, but ROTD was really HARD. I'm not a good player myself, but pretty much everyone who tried to play it would get a Game Over screen by the third or fourth battle. Sadly, this made most people dislike it, despite the interesting tag-team gameplay system, nice sprites and catchy soundtrack (Pepe & Pupa's and Billy & Lynn's are my favorite tracks).

It's even sadder, however, that it has next to no chance of ever getting a sequel. To me, it was - and still is - quite fun. A small project, with some flaws (like the many gramatical errors in text, the amateurish Radel & Annie stage, uninspired designs for Radel and Oni, or the annoying voices given to Pupa, Annie, Alice and Mr. Jones), but with many more qualities and a good potential to generate an even better sequel. Oh well...





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"Re(1):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 03:38post reply

quote:
Well, it seems the discussions about World Heroes are over, so moving on...

The recent reveal of Abigail for SFV reminded me this week of Evoga's Rage of the Dragons, which looks like an interesting classic game to discuss. It's interesting to notice it was released long after most of the games we consider classic - but, on the other hand, it was released nearly fifteen years ago, so I'd say it can already be considered a classic game, somehow.

I guess you guys already know this game was supposed to be part of the Double Dragon franchise until the producers failed to obtain the right to use its license - thus, the Lee brothers became the Lewis brothers, and Abobo became Abubo. Knowing this before getting to play it for the first time, I expected ROTD to be full of DD references, but it actually does feel like a completely original game - and the good thing is, it works!

While ROTD is far from being the best fighting game in the world, it's still quite good. I love how instead of making the roster look like Double Dragon mooks or bosses, the developers made each of the fighters very unique, ranging from normal people to not-so-normal people (including dragon hosts, dragon hunters and a couple that is implied to be avatars of an angel and a demon), to a British girl in a blue dress named Alice Carroll... yeah, very subtle.

Anyway, I don't know if maybe it's the way how the arcade cabinet I used to play was programmed, but ROTD was really HARD. I'm not a good player

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


Kinda sad it has to be this way. Well, Evoga went bankrupt in 2004, while Noise Factory shut down last March. Nobody knows who currently owns the rights of ROTD until now.

I remember Yasuyuki Oda has intentions to revive ROTD. However, being a "homage" to Double Dragon might ring alarm to the current rights holder of Double Dragon... Arc System Works.

I do not know if SNK and/or Arc System Works brought this up when their reps are in EVO.

I see scenarios if ROTD rights was brought up.
a) SNK gets the rights, but loses Billy, Jimmy and Abubo to ArcSys. SNK will reboot the series, but SNK will retcon them out and promote Lynn as the de facto protagonist, or give Billy, Jimmy and Abubo the Nameless treatment.
b) Arc System Works gets the rights, no legal problems.
c) SNK and ArcSys makes a deal, SNK gets the rights, loses the Lewis Brothers and Abubo, but allows to bring the Lee Brothers and Abobo as guest characters as compensation with ArcSys' blessing.





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"Re(1):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 03:45post reply

quote:
Well, it seems the discussions about World Heroes are over, so moving on...

The recent reveal of Abigail for SFV reminded me this week of Evoga's Rage of the Dragons, which looks like an interesting classic game to discuss.


I consider ROTD a great game from a graphical point of view, not on the level of GarouMOTW, but it had really big sprites, interesting character design (the priest! and the possessed girl!!) but it seems that after some point during development they decided to pad the roster with too much head swaps (at least from superficial point of view, gameplay-wise I not remember much, but I think they had at least movesets different enough).
I'm talking about the two guys in spandex and if IIRC there were also 2 girls that shared the same base sprite. And not counting the two brothers!
For the difficulty, yes, I remember it very difficult, and I never beat the final boss.
The same happened with Matrimelee, it was developed by the same people, right? (It had some ROTD characters as secret). That boss was really the worst in absolute.





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"Re(2):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 04:12post reply

quote:
I see scenarios if ROTD rights was brought up.
a) SNK gets the rights, but loses Billy, Jimmy and Abubo to ArcSys. SNK will reboot the series, but SNK will retcon them out and promote Lynn as the de facto protagonist, or give Billy, Jimmy and Abubo the Nameless treatment.
b) Arc System Works gets the rights, no legal problems.
c) SNK and ArcSys makes a deal, SNK gets the rights, loses the Lewis Brothers and Abubo, but allows to bring the Lee Brothers and Abobo as guest characters as compensation with ArcSys' blessing.


I'd LOVE any of these scenarios! Although I wonder if ArcSys would have the time for a new project (or if SNK would have budget and interest for a project not associated with KOF)...

But it would be great to see ROTD back, maybe with some more dragon hosts, more supernatural characters, maybe even some fighters looking like "Alice in Wonderland" characters to give ROTD's Alice some backstory development. And I wouldn't complain if the tag team system borrowed some features from Atlus' Groove on Fight (with the partners in the background following wherever the main characters go, defeated fighters staying on the ground, maybe even the ability to throw the unconscious people on the enemy).

quote:
I consider ROTD a great game from a graphical point of view, not on the level of GarouMOTW, but it had really big sprites, interesting character design (the priest! and the possessed girl!!) but it seems that after some point during development they decided to pad the roster with too much head swaps (at least from superficial point of view, gameplay-wise I not remember much, but I think they had at least movesets different enough).
I'm talking about the two guys in spandex and if IIRC there were also 2 girls that shared the same base sprite. And not counting the two brothers!



I guess you're talking about Radel and Oni (the two uninspired designs I mentioned), Annie and Alice (they're the only two girls I can remember that have similar height), and obviously Jimmy and Billy.

To be fair, though, each of them has different animations, different clothing (even if Radel and Oni are both wearing spandex, they're wearing DIFFERENT kinds of spandex) and different movesets, so I'm not sure if any of them could be considered a case of head swap. I don't understand much of base sprites and animations, but they look quite different from each other to me.





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"Re(3):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 05:58post reply

Radel and Oni, yes them, I think they had different movesets but some sprite were recycled between the two (like for saving time during development... it's just an impression I had at the time).
I could be wrong, but I remember having that bad impressions about them when I played the game back then.





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"Re(4):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Wed 19 Jul 06:47post reply

I guess that is possible, yes. After reading your comment, I searched for some videos of ROTD, and Annie's and Alice's neutral fighting stances do look quite similar to each other (except for Annie having her arms and head raised).

Then again, Evoga did make this game with very few resources, didn't it? I don't blame the developers if they recycled some animations here and there, especially because as a whole, no two characters in ROTD look or play the same as each other. Plus, it's not like if companies like Capcom, SNK and ArcSys didn't do the same thing before (and let's not even mention Mortal Kombat's ninjas...).





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"Re(5):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Mon 31 Jul 23:10:post reply

Well, it seems the interest in talking about ROTD is over. Nevertheless, before the subject is changed, I'd only like to make one last comment about it.

One thing I find frustrating is that ROTD not only never got a sequel, but that it never got ported to other platforms, either. I wonder how popular it would have been if it hadn't been restricted to the Neo Geo... okay, since it was made by a small company, probably most people wouldn't have paid attention to it anyway (unless Evoga pushed Sonia and Cassandra on the game covers for blatant fanservice - it works for Dead or Alive, after all), but who knows... maybe someone would be interested in a fighting game with alternate versions of Double Dragon's Billy, Jimmy and Abobo, although there were already two DD fighting games. On the other hand, I don't remember any other fighting game with an alternate version of Alice in Wonderland's Alice (if only she had long, blonde hair...)...





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[this message was edited by Just a Person on Mon 31 Jul 23:12]

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"Re(6):From Double Dragon to Wonderland IN ONE" , posted Tue 1 Aug 22:33post reply

quote:
Well, it seems the interest in talking about ROTD is over. Nevertheless, before the subject is changed, I'd only like to make one last comment about it.

One thing I find frustrating is that ROTD not only never got a sequel, but that it never got ported to other platforms, either. I wonder how popular it would have been if it hadn't been restricted to the Neo Geo... okay, since it was made by a small company, probably most people wouldn't have paid attention to it anyway (unless Evoga pushed Sonia and Cassandra on the game covers for blatant fanservice - it works for Dead or Alive, after all), but who knows... maybe someone would be interested in a fighting game with alternate versions of Double Dragon's Billy, Jimmy and Abobo, although there were already two DD fighting games. On the other hand, I don't remember any other fighting game with an alternate version of Alice in Wonderland's Alice (if only she had long, blonde hair...)...



When this game was released, which was also the same time as Metal Slug 4 and Sengoku 3, I was really trying my best to find this game. I even told one of the arcade owners to order the game for his four slot MVS cabinet that already had KOF 98, 99, and some other games. But I had to go the PC route.

My first impression was quite decent. I was trying to learn the mechanics it offered and to my surprise, the game didn't felt rushed or simple where it got boring fast. So I was entertained even though not passing the 4th stage with one credit and not continuing. The VS setting was pretty cool since you get to choose what stage you want, or was that training mode? Did it have training mode for AES? So I was able to see the boss stage and the boss I think. Maybe it was a debug setting I do not remember.

Anyways, the fact that the game was hard to find and it did not use a PC program that allow you to play players online like other PC programs (cough) (cough), The game didn't get the love and attention it deserved. It all boiled down to the lack of exposure really because it would have had a good size cult following. same could be said about Sengoku 3. Shit, it was like my new version of SOR!

ROTD kept me entertain for quite some time. I picked it up here and there every other day to play one credit. It was hard not being able to play with anyone though to see how challenging it could be. I think I will try to look for it again and play it.





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"Mutants, fighters and ninjas with funny masks" , posted Tue 5 Sep 03:43:post reply

Well, it's over a month since the last comment about ROTD in this thread, so I guess it's time to move to the next subject.

Since ROTD is a tag team game, I considered choosing another tag team game. For some days, I've been considering whether the new subject should be SNK's Kizuna Encounter or Capcom's X-Men vs. Street Fighter... then it occurred to me: why not talk about both??

After all, both KE and XMvSF were released the same year, which is quite a coincidence. Back then, a videogame magazine speculated if one company tried to copy the other's gimmick; today, it doesn't seem likely, since apparently the interval between their releases was quite small to give a team time enough to plagiarize the other's work. Plus, as we know, the tag mechanics is very different between these two games.

---

As for the games themselves, Kizuna Encounter's tag limitation to a specific area of the stage probably didn't do the game many favors (at least considering most tag-team fighting games that came afterwards adopted XMvSF's partner arrival from anywhere), but I must admit I loved to see the partners cheering in the background and showing their status depending on their health bars (from anxious to battle, to slightly tired, to nearly collapsing). Plus, I must admit I really like Gozu and Mezu!

I guess its weakest point was that it was really short, due to its small roster (sure, Savage Reign's Carol and Nicola weren't the coolest fighters ever, but what's the point of removing them for a game with few characters, where FOUR fighters enter the match at the same time?) and the decision to have the match ending if one fighter was knocked out, instead of continuing it until both partners were defeated (okay, TTT also does this, but at least each match had 2 to 3 rounds).

Nevertheless, it's a shame that a third Fu'un game polishing Kizuna Encounter's flaws never materialized. It was a fun game.

---

Now, for XMvSF, back in 1996 I was sure someone was lying when the first news about this game surfaced. Two huge franchises colliding in the same game? Special moves even flashier than the ones in X-Men:COTA? Tag battles with the possibility of having BOTH partners doing their Super Combos simultaneously?

It sounded too good to be true... and while nowadays it's far from impressing, I'd say all expectations back then were met. The arcade cabinet I used to play in a mall was always crowded, either with people challenging each other or beating the CPU until they were crushed by Apocalypse (at least before everyone figured out his weak points). And while the roster wasn't huge, it was nicely selected, from Gambit, Rogue and Sabretooth's debut to Cammy's return. The first defeated character repeatedly bouncing on the floor until leaving the stage was kinda stupid, though (fortunately, MSHvSF removed that).

*sigh* I really wish MvC:I can bring the same level of excitement as XMvSF did. I'm not betting on it, though.





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"Re(1):Mutants, fighters and ninjas with funny" , posted Wed 6 Sep 04:30post reply

XMvSF was, for me, the game that heralded the start of the tag fad. For awhile there it seemed every game was built using old resources but were released as a "new" game because you could control a team of two or more characters. It was like a musical style that people hate but listen to anyway because it's everywhere; tag games are the auto-tune of fighters. Eventually the sub-genre mutated into it's own thing to such an extent that games like UMvC3 share about as much common ancestry with SF4 as a hippopotamus does with a humpback whale. Still, for awhile there it felt as if every game was the same old thing but with "Tag" appended to the title.

But even for the dark days it heralded XMvSF wasn't a bad game. To be more accurate, it was good because it was sort of terrible. Even when it first came out people realized the game had issues but it was popular because it was weird, energetic, and doing something different. Sometimes being first is better than being flawless. Out of all the vs games it's the one I look back on with the most fondness because it was out there before the rules had been established.

I first played Kizuna Encounter years after the fact on a grey-market multicab so I have no old recollections of the game. I did, however, want to mention Rosa. She's one of the better designs in the game even though she's every 1996 anime cliché aggregated together Voltron style. How would the designs of Menat and Abigail have been received if they had been released in 1996? How would the Savage Reign cast be received if they came out today?







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"Re(2):Mutants, fighters and ninjas with funny" , posted Wed 6 Sep 06:31post reply

quote:
XMvSF was, for me, the game that heralded the start of the tag fad. For awhile there it seemed every game was built using old resources but were released as a "new" game because you could control a team of two or more characters. It was like a musical style that people hate but listen to anyway because it's everywhere; tag games are the auto-tune of fighters. Eventually the sub-genre mutated into it's own thing to such an extent that games like UMvC3 share about as much common ancestry with SF4 as a hippopotamus does with a humpback whale. Still, for awhile there it felt as if every game was the same old thing but with "Tag" appended to the title.

But even for the dark days it heralded XMvSF wasn't a bad game. To be more accurate, it was good because it was sort of terrible. Even when it first came out people realized the game had issues but it was popular because it was weird, energetic, and doing something different. Sometimes being first is better than being flawless. Out of all the vs games it's the one I look back on with the most fondness because it was out there before the rules had been established.

I first played Kizuna Encounter years after the fact on a grey-market multicab so I have no old recollections of the game. I did, however, want to mention Rosa. She's one of the better designs in the game even though she's every 1996 anime cliché aggregated together Voltron style. How would the designs of Menat and Abigail have been received if they had b

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


I really liked XvSF when it was new! CotA was the most gorgeous Marvel game I had ever seen, and XvSF now had an awesomely cool realization of Gambit! Rogue and Sabertooth were there, too, and that they all sounded exactly like the cartoon versions blew my mind at the time!

I was in no way good enough at fighting games to be able to say that a fighting game was a "good fighting game" by any of the standards of gameplay or balance that I would judge them by today, but the game was a bigger CotA with Street Fighter characters that now had awesomely huge special moves (Ryu's fireballs! Ryu's beam!) and could shoot into the air like in CotA, and it looked AWESOME. This meant that the game was AWESOME.

I definitely perceived CotA-style game as being a somewhat different beast to traditional SF, but since fireballs and beams are awesome, I thought it was way cooler than traditional SF. I couldn't even do launcher combos ("aerial raves") consistently, but it looked way cooler and the huge vertical stages, huge special moves, and gorgeous graphics made them way cooler to me.







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"Re(2):Mutants, fighters and ninjas with funny" , posted Wed 6 Sep 07:00post reply

quote:
UMvC3 share about as much common ancestry with SF4 as a hippopotamus does with a humpback whale.
This is the kind of post that gives this place its elegantly rusty flavour.

Even in the case of tag fighters with recycled asset like XvsSF, any new asset can give them value. I didn't know any of the X-men at the time so they were new (and uninteresting) to me, but that game also had the first return of Cammy since SSF2X, with a much better sprite to boot.
MvC1 and 2 also had a lot of original sprites to balance the recycling (most of them on the Capcom side, which I liked much more).
CvS was quite the deception for the Capcom side (only new sprites were boring characters who could have been recycled from Zero), but CvS2 went quite creative for the Capcom side instead of simply adding Rose and Alex. You could even trace SFxT's 4 characters not in SF4 to this honourable lineage. Of course, all SNK and Tekken characters were new, a huge endeavour in both cases.
The odd one is MSHxSF, which on top of being ugly, recycled all its content, and picked the most boring characters from Zero2 to add insult to injury.

Let's say MvC:I is on the lower end of that spectrum, with a shallow new-to-old-ratio, but not the lowest.







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"Re(3):Mutants, fighters and ninjas with funny" , posted Wed 6 Sep 14:58post reply

quote:
UMvC3 share about as much common ancestry with SF4 as a hippopotamus does with a humpback whale. This is the kind of post that gives this place its elegantly rusty flavour.
Truly! Ishmael's incidental jokes amdist longer commentary make the Cafe the only place worth talking about games on the internet.

This is a good topic! While X-Men vs. Street Fighter may indeed have been "pretty stupid" and the start of devilish Morrigan's sad and ironic descent into (sprite) hell, there's no denying the excitement I felt after seeing these beautiful, high visual impact games. It's probably Edayan's art if I remember correctly, but it's all so bright and rounded but clearly drawn. I never played many of these---I've played more Tekken Tag, of all the damn things---but this is the first of a line of games that deeply symbolized the temporarily reviving mystique of the arcade: not many people had Saturns and the RAM cart, meaning that there just wasn't anything at home capable of running these insane, nutty character parties. Sure, this was already evident with the awful PS1 port of Zero 2 we were stuck with, but X-Men vs. Street Fighter is the first one I can recall (am I missing one?) where literally a core game element, the tag team switch-out, could not happen at home. This resulted in the very palpable feeling of me wanting arcade machines in my house, as if there were any place to put them.





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"Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 05:46post reply

Not really reviving this thread, but I just wanted to comment that I got the chance to play Tobal 2 few days ago, and... well, I understand now why so many people here love it. It still looks and plays great, and the Quest mode is addictive!

Such a shame that Square never brought this game to the rest of the world and just abandoned this series after the second entry. This could have become one of the top fighting game franchises with proper management.





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"Re(1):Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 06:28post reply

quote:
Not really reviving this thread, but I just wanted to comment that I got the chance to play Tobal 2 few days ago, and... well, I understand now why so many people here love it. It still looks and plays great, and the Quest mode is addictive!

Such a shame that Square never brought this game to the rest of the world and just abandoned this series after the second entry. This could have become one of the top fighting game franchises with proper management.



I always found it sadly funny that while you can play your character from Quest mode in Versus, Dream Factory didn't bother to accommodate larger than normal stats. Instead, damage values wrapped around after overflowing, meaning your leveled up character could quickly end up doing less damage than the default version.

As for bringing the game to the rest of the world, Square dropped the series because it wasn't popular enough. Mind, they expected Tobal No. 1 to rival Tekken in sales. I think Ehrgeiz was pretty much their last ditch effort to create a popular fighting game franchise, and it quickly became known as "that Final Fantasy fighting game". For me Dream Factory went downhill after Tobal 2 anyway; Ehrgeiz was a pretty big let down and then things just seemed to fall apart.







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"Re(1):Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 08:17post reply

quote:
Not really reviving this thread, but I just wanted to comment that I got the chance to play Tobal 2 few days ago, and... well, I understand now why so many people here love it. It still looks and plays great, and the Quest mode is addictive!
Good man! Tobal 2 is so wonderful. I still say "con-tinue" out loud to this day, just like the announcer does. It's such a beautiful, cheerful, unique game. Its visual style accomplishes the remarkable feat of being probably the oldest 3D fighting game that still looks good today (edging out Soul Calibur 1). Remarkable feat on a PS1. I still remember how it feels to use that R1 (?) life-meter-eating energy attack, or how tactile and real the grapples and blocks feel. I know I've talked about it before, but in most fighting games, your blocked attacks go "through" your opponent, with them just taking no damage, whereas in Tobal your motion is actually cut short, like in real life. Plus, there's Emperor Udan!





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"Re(2):Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 09:01post reply

Speaking of disappointment from wasted potential in square-related fighting games, they're selling weapon packs for Dissidia NT consisting of the 4th weapons for each character apparently already available in the arcade version.

This would be less messed up if the exception wasn't Lightning, which 4th weapon can already be regularly unlocked in the home version... it was already kinda messed up that FF4 gets 3 characters right off the bath while multiple mainline games still only get one rep, but this is really starting to look like they're not planning this very well, or letting favorites of the staff skewer development priorities and the business model for this thing.

I'm probably still gonna get the Shantotto weapon because there aren't many ways to tell SE in the financial language they're supposed to understand that there's interest in XI-related stuff, and maybe Bartz' weapon(s), since that works as a reference to the general superior experience of the PSP Dissidias (and with the superior outfit that's his alternate instead of his Amano-based main one).

Seriously, I'm getting a better FF crossover experience out of the free mobile Opera Omnia, where you get stuff like reference to Cloud in drag in the Faris recruitment chapter (although they missed out on the possibility of having Setzer in there as a bit of a development history nod, but the game's timed event structure may be to blame there).

Apparently Dissidia NT will be adding story bits with Vayne in them thogh, so at least there's that.





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"Re(2):Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 09:38post reply

quote:
Good man! Tobal 2 is so wonderful. I still say "con-tinue" out loud to this day, just like the announcer does. It's such a beautiful, cheerful, unique game. Its visual style accomplishes the remarkable feat of being probably the oldest 3D fighting game that still looks good today (edging out Soul Calibur 1). Remarkable feat on a PS1. I still remember how it feels to use that R1 (?) life-meter-eating energy attack, or how tactile and real the grapples and blocks feel. I know I've talked about it before, but in most fighting games, your blocked attacks go "through" your opponent, with them just taking no damage, whereas in Tobal your motion is actually cut short, like in real life. Plus, there's Emperor Udan!



Ah, Udan, that unfairly agile bastard... He, Mufu, Nork and Mark should haverá gotten their own endings in Tournament mode.

Speaking of Mark, it's nice to see him doing his own devious schemes in Quest mode while most of the other fighters are busy in the tournament. The way the two modes intertwine kinda increases the immersion in the game world(...s).

That's a nice idea, which the developers apparently tried to replicate and expand in Ehrgeiz, with Masuda and Clair busy in a dungeon while everyone else was in the tournament. Sadly, its Quest mode is an awfully generic dungeon-crawling game (I mean, they don't even use their fighting skills!), that feels almost completely detached from Tournament mode (not to mention its frustrating short text endings on a black screen as the only reward for an extremely long and hard playthrough)...





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"Re(3):Short comment about Tobal 2" , posted Thu 19 Apr 12:03:post reply

quote:
Sadly, its Quest mode is an awfully generic dungeon-crawling game (I mean, they don't even use their fighting skills!), that feels almost completely detached from Tournament mode


Tobal No 1's Quest Mode was interesting. Tobal 2's Quest Mode took the concept and turned it into what could almost have been sold as its own game.

I went into Ehrgeiz with high expectations. How much more would the devs polish the formula? Would environments become more important thanks to Ehrgeiz's combat design? Would Ehrgeiz set a new standard for action Rogue-likes?

Then I played Ehrgeiz's quest mode. At first I was confused, and then I just didn't want to admit it. It wasn't "Ehrgeiz - The Rogue-like Adventure". It was an unrelated game that had been stuck on the Ehrgeiz disc in order to fill the "Quest Mode" checkbox on the feature list.

I'd say that it wasn't even a particularly fun game, but I honestly never gave it a fair shake, never touching the quest mode again after my first play. Though it honestly didn't particularly interesting or engaging in that single play, even putting the crushed expectations.


Mind, I was still a bit of a sucker for the idea of DreamFactory attempting a Rogue-like, as I would later buy Crimson Tears because it was "Action Game the Rogue-likelite". Okay, I ended up buying it out of a discount bin, because I was still gun shy. But I certainly got more than my discount bin purchase price out of it, even if I'd have been more upset at its shortcomings if I'd paid full retail.

I know that attitude didn't actually help DreamFactory's bottom line, but while they were a company that tried ideas that I wanted to see tried, they always fell a bit too far short in obvious ways after Tobal 2. Ehrgeiz traded traditional fighting game complexity for mobility and stage interaction that PS1 hardware wasn't capable of achieving; a success that wouldn't really be achieved until the next hardware generation with Power Stone. Ehrgeiz Quest Mode was a random budget release game stuck on the Ehrgeiz disc. The Bouncer had a lot of hype, which only helped it crash and burn. Kakuto Choujin did nothing to make the DreamFactory fighting engine mechanically look as good as Tobal 2, and the title being pulled from shelves was pretty much a mercy killing. Crimson Tears was fun, but it had some pretty basic design oversights and issues. From looking at a YouTube video, Appleseed EX is just Crimson Tears reskinned to be a much less interesting product?





[this message was edited by Baines on Thu 19 Apr 12:06]

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"Retro-style hits the modern" , posted Fri 27 Apr 02:26post reply

The indies-friendly standalone arcade board ExaArcadia is getting a new fighting game that can only be explained as a flashback to the 1990s.

https://twitter.com/exaarcadia/status/989405869325500416/video/1



I can't imagine throwing too many credits into this game when it's out.

...ok who am I kidding, I'll probably be on it until I see all the endings.







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"Re(1):Retro-style hits the modern" , posted Fri 27 Apr 04:20post reply

quote:
The indies-friendly standalone arcade board ExaArcadia is getting a new fighting game that can only be explained as a flashback to the 1990s.

https://twitter.com/exaarcadia/status/989405869325500416/video/1



I can't imagine throwing too many credits into this game when it's out.

...ok who am I kidding, I'll probably be on it until I see all the endings.


What's most retro about this game is that they probably aren't going to pay one cent in royalties for the likenesses they are using. Just like the good old days!

That said, I want to play this game immediately. Since it looks to have plundered the Shaw Bros. vaults and features two characters played by Sonny Chiba how could I not?





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"Re(2):Retro-style hits the modern" , posted Sat 28 Apr 18:58post reply

quote:
The indies-friendly standalone arcade board ExaArcadia is getting a new fighting game that can only be explained as a flashback to the 1990s.

https://twitter.com/exaarcadia/status/989405869325500416/video/1



I can't imagine throwing too many credits into this game when it's out.

...ok who am I kidding, I'll probably be on it until I see all the endings.


What's most retro about this game is that they probably aren't going to pay one cent in royalties for the likenesses they are using. Just like the good old days!

That said, I want to play this game immediately. Since it looks to have plundered the Shaw Bros. vaults and features two characters played by Sonny Chiba how could I not?



The hit animations are what makes it retro to me. They look slapstick, in a Jackie-Chan kind of way. Actually, there are moments in the clip when I lose track of who's hitting, who's being hit, and the whole trade of blows looks like they're dancing!





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"Discovering PI Legends in 2018" , posted Sat 19 May 06:45:post reply

Once again reviving this thread... and once again to comment a game that was already discussed here. Sorry about that.

But I just got surprised this week when I found an arcade cabinet in a bar with Power Instinct Legends (well, Gogetsuji Legends - I have no idea why Atlus localized this game yet didn't bother to adapt its title the same way the previous games were titled). I think the only game from this franchise I ever saw in a cabinet before was the first one. So, I decided to play it a little.

And a little it was, as my team never went past the third team. Man, this is a hard game! Sure, I was always quite bad at fighting games (despite loving them), but the difficulty level seems bigger in this one.

Nevertheless, it was a fun experience. It looks quite beautiful for a 1995 game - in fact, there was a KOF'95 cabinet next to it and I think Legends looks much better -, and the cast is unique even with the occasional inspirations (Reiji in relation to Ryu, Keith in relation to Terry Bogard and Annie is kinda similar to Yuri, I think). Reiji ended up being my favorite character to play, although in terms of design I love Kurara's magical girl gimmick and Sahad as a rare (possibly only) fighter from Lebanon - my great-grandfather was Lebanese, and while I'm sure their fighting styles don't involve throwing scimitars, summoning genies or morphing into parrots, he's nevertheless a cool character.

Unfortunately the arcade coins weren't really cheap to buy, so I guess I won't be visiting this bar in the near future. But it was great to experience this game, and I do intend to play it again whenever I have more money (it may take a while until it happens, though).





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[this message was edited by Just a Person on Sat 19 May 08:18]

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"Ultimate Muscle!" , posted Wed 4 Jul 02:17post reply

Not sure if anyone else come across this game as I may be the only one who have played but I do considered this Ultimate Muscle as a GameCube classic. Anyone have experience playing?





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"Re(1):Ultimate Muscle!" , posted Thu 5 Jul 01:38post reply

quote:
Not sure if anyone else come across this game as I may be the only one who have played but I do considered this Ultimate Muscle as a GameCube classic. Anyone have experience playing?



I think I played this game intensely for two or three days to write a review. It was a lot of fun, but I never went back to it.

The one thing I remember is a guy with a knight mask saying "Time to pay, conniver!" and then mangling the opponent's arms before launching them into the air for an elaborate body-contorting slam.

It was super-memorable because I don't think I'd ever heard another human being call someone else a "conniver" as an insult before. So now I'll break out this quote once every five years with no context when the screen freezes for a super move in whatever fighting game I happen to be playing (like T. Hawk's Ultra Two). Because if you have been conniving, you need to face justice.





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"Re(2):Ultimate Muscle!" , posted Wed 11 Jul 10:55post reply

quote:
Not sure if anyone else come across this game as I may be the only one who have played but I do considered this Ultimate Muscle as a GameCube classic. Anyone have experience playing?


I think I played this game intensely for two or three days to write a review. It was a lot of fun, but I never went back to it.

The one thing I remember is a guy with a knight mask saying "Time to pay, conniver!" and then mangling the opponent's arms before launching them into the air for an elaborate body-contorting slam.

It was super-memorable because I don't think I'd ever heard another human being call someone else a "conniver" as an insult before. So now I'll break out this quote once every five years with no context when the screen freezes for a super move in whatever fighting game I happen to be playing (like T. Hawk's Ultra Two). Because if you have been conniving, you need to face justice.



Haha now that's cool. Good to know. Would be fun to play it again for it bit. It was nice at the time.





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