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"Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Thu 14 Jan 12:13:post reply

The all-purpose fighting game thread---always in a precarious relationship with the SNK thread and the SFV thread---needs a new look for 2021! What better way to start than a new oral history article of the Cafe's early sort-of-mascot-game Capcom vs. SNK? It segues into the sad tale of the collapse of Capcom fighting games for seven years, but at least things are better now!

These Polygon articles for some reason keep focusing on the unimportant first series entries (SFIII: NG, SFZero1, CvS1), but there's fun stuff in here:

-Making the game thawed relationships between Capcom and SNK. Beyond drinking parties, they had Capcom vs. SNK Yu-Gi-Oh tournaments.

-MMCafe's Favorite (??) Handheld System, the Neo Geo Pocket Color, might have provided some basis for early talks as SNK was looking for other companies to develop for it.

-The programmer had never played an SNK game (that's even more extreme than me!), so he had to do a lot of research on the feel.

-When Aruze screwed over SNK after it bought it, about 20 SNK staff moved to Capcom and were this mystery team who needed to prove themselves...with Capcom Fighting All-Stars. Oops.

-CvS2 director Itsuno wasn't particularly sad as the fighting game scene was collapsing...he was pretty done with it, and was busy making Dragon's Dogma. Interesting but unsurprising when creators of our favorite things aren't that sentimental about the past.

-Capcom Fighting Jam was just as crappy and irrelevant as you remember saying it was here on the Cafe about twenty years ago.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 15 Jan 05:28]

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talbaineric
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"Re(1):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Thu 14 Jan 14:49post reply

quote:
-Capcom Fighting Jam was just as crappy and irrelevant as you remember saying it was here on the Cafe about twenty years ago.


Crappy with a capital C.

I still was a sucker for the game, since at that point in time Capcom hadn't put out a new fighting game since CvS2, and I was desperate to play something. This game made MUGEN look like gold.







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"Re(1):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Fri 15 Jan 01:27post reply

For those playing along at home, the Garuda costume is now available. Gouki-ruda has all sorts of glowing bits on him so he looks like a festive Christmas tree. You can even enjoy the glow and spirit of the holidays when he lands a raging demon.

quote:

-CvS2 director Itsuno wasn't particularly sad as the fighting game scene was collapsing...he was pretty done with it, and was busy making Dragon's Dogma. Interesting but unsurprising when creators of our favorite things aren't that sentimental about the past.


I can't blame Itsuno since he would have a completely different perspective on the games. Working every day for years on the same genre must get tiring so I don't blame him for wanting to try a new creative project. Now give me DD2 damn you!







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"Re(1):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Fri 15 Jan 04:42post reply

quote:
These Polygon articles for some reason keep focusing on the important first series entries (SFIII: NG, SFZero1, CvS1), but there's fun stuff in here:


The article also low-key confirms a very old but unconfirmed rumor that CvS3 was, in fact, in development. And despite starting life as a 2D development, it became 3D before getting canned and forgotten forever. I have to wonder what this progression that led to it becoming 3D even was.







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"Re(1):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Sat 16 Jan 01:14post reply

quote:
-Making the game thawed relationships between Capcom and SNK. Beyond drinking parties, they had Capcom vs. SNK Yu-Gi-Oh tournaments.


Oh, to be a fly on the wall for that. They must have been ecstatic when doing CFC.

quote:
-When Aruze screwed over SNK after it bought it, about 20 SNK staff moved to Capcom and were this mystery team who needed to prove themselves...with Capcom Fighting All-Stars. Oops.


I don't care how crappy that beta test was, the trailer showed off some interesting mechanics that sadly never saw the light of day. I still wish that game was salvageable somehow.





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"Re(2):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Sat 16 Jan 01:20post reply

quote:
-Capcom Fighting Jam was just as crappy and irrelevant as you remember saying it was here on the Cafe about twenty years ago.

Crappy with a capital C.

I still was a sucker for the game, since at that point in time Capcom hadn't put out a new fighting game since CvS2, and I was desperate to play something. This game made MUGEN look like gold.



True. The idea was interesting, having each represented game in the crossover keeping their own mechanics, but they could at least give everyone new sprites that didn't clash visually with each other; having a SFIII character next to a DarkStalkers one without new sprites made the game look horrible. And the "team" system was weird, too; if you can use the same character in both rounds even if they lost the first one, the only incentive to pick a second character is for people who care about specific match-ups, and I don't think most of the fighting game players at the time cared a lot about that.

The artwork in the portraits and endings looked good, I'll give CFJ that. Just that.





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"Re(3):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Sat 16 Jan 03:54post reply

quote:
-Capcom Fighting Jam was just as crappy and irrelevant as you remember saying it was here on the Cafe about twenty years ago.

Crappy with a capital C.

I still was a sucker for the game, since at that point in time Capcom hadn't put out a new fighting game since CvS2, and I was desperate to play something. This game made MUGEN look like gold.


True. The idea was interesting, having each represented game in the crossover keeping their own mechanics, but they could at least give everyone new sprites that didn't clash visually with each other; having a SFIII character next to a DarkStalkers one without new sprites made the game look horrible. And the "team" system was weird, too; if you can use the same character in both rounds even if they lost the first one, the only incentive to pick a second character is for people who care about specific match-ups, and I don't think most of the fighting game players at the time cared a lot about that.

The artwork in the portraits and endings looked good, I'll give CFJ that. Just that.



Yes, agreed. The sprites were just archaic at that point. I wonder if Capcom could've afforded to redraw and reanimate them all. At least they gave new sprites to Demitri's Midnight Bliss transformations.

Shinkiro did an excellent job with the illustrations. I'd like to see what he can do with a whole Darkstalkers art.







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"Re(3):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Sat 16 Jan 04:48post reply

quote:
the "team" system was weird, too; if you can use the same character in both rounds even if they lost the first one, the only incentive to pick a second character is for people who care about specific match-ups, and I don't think most of the fighting game players at the time cared a lot about that.

That was the dumbest thing of the whole game. The idea was that if you had hyper-polarizing matchup like Guile/Zangief, you'd have a backup. But anyone thinking more than 5 minutes about it would see how bad the idea was: if you have Gief and someone else that's good against Guile, and you see the other one has Guile and someone that's good against your 2nd character, each round is basically a round of "rock-paper-scissor" with only two options, and whoever comes out on top with the character matchup wins the round. And on the other hand, if you have two average-rounded characters, there is never any reason to change characters.
That was the moment, so many years before SF4 and SFxT, that I knew Ono was a hack.

I remember being disappointed the game didn't have double the amount of characters (if you're going to do a hack job at copy and pasting characters without any regard for esthetics or balance, at least be generous with the selection!), but after a few matches, it was obvious the game was so bad that even a Mugen cast wouldn't save it. Copying the super simple KOF rule, making the game CvS2 without the S, or even plugging all that into MvC2 without the Marvel characters for totaly silliness would have been so much better.
To think that this failure of a game is the reason Capcom (well, Ono) never greenlit another Capcom vs Capcom game "because people don't want that" drives me mad. People don't want bad games regardless of the characters in it. The latest SQEX GAAS Avengers is the proof of that.





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"Re(4):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Sat 16 Jan 07:54:post reply

quote:
That was the dumbest thing of the whole game. The idea was that if you had hyper-polarizing matchup like Guile/Zangief, you'd have a backup. But anyone thinking more than 5 minutes about it would see how bad the idea was: if you have Gief and someone else that's good against Guile, and you see the other one has Guile and someone that's good against your 2nd character, each round is basically a round of "rock-paper-scissor" with only two options, and whoever comes out on top with the character matchup wins the round. And on the other hand, if you have two average-rounded characters, there is never any reason to change characters.
That was the moment, so many years before SF4 and SFxT, that I knew Ono was a hack.

I remember being disappointed the game didn't have double the amount of characters (if you're going to do a hack job at copy and pasting characters without any regard for esthetics or balance, at least be generous with the selection!), but after a few matches, it was obvious the game was so bad that even a Mugen cast wouldn't save it. Copying the super simple KOF rule, making the game CvS2 without the S, or even plugging all that into MvC2 without the Marvel characters for totaly silliness would have been so much better.
To think that this failure of a game is the reason Capcom (well, Ono) never greenlit another Capcom vs Capcom game "because people don't want that" drives me mad. People don't want bad games regardless of the characters in it. The latest SQEX GAAS Avengers is the proof of that.


Capcom definitely should make a MvC2-style game without the "M", just a "Capcom vs Capcom" game with the MvCI gameplay (without the Infinity Gems) or the UMVC3 gameplay. I mean, it's not like Marvel and Disney did a lot for them in the last crossover, and at least Capcom wouldn't have to deal with Disney forbidding any character (*cough*X-Men*cough*).

Come on, even SNK already had their own MvC game with Neo Geo Battle Coliseum (granted, it wasn't great, but then again, it was made during a tough period for SNK). Capcom has all the tools to make a CvC game - I mean, a GOOD CvC game, not another CFE...

(and yes, if the CFE developers were going to be that lazy, at least they could have added more characters - I'd have liked to see Mei-Ling and Tessa, for example, plus CFAS' D.D., Rook and Death as the CFAS planned newcomers alongside Ingrid. And it's shocking that even some fan-favorites like Ken and Morrigan were left out of it)





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[this message was edited by Just a Person on Sat 16 Jan 07:57]

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"Re(5):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Sat 16 Jan 10:33post reply

Anyway, one surprising revelation in this article is the fact that there was a CvS3 being planned at some point, during the PS2 heydays. And that it would be a 3D game.

While I think the current SF and KoF (and Samurai Shodown too) turned out well with 3D graphics (while retaining the 2D gameplay), I suspect a 3D CvS3 at that time would be quite a disaster... guess that the plan being folded ended up being the best decision.

That said, a CvS3 (or SvC2, but the first one was a mess, so I guess "CvS3" would attract more players) being developed now could be a good idea. Probably it won't happen, though.





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"Re(5):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Sun 17 Jan 05:17post reply

quote:
Capcom definitely should make a MvC2-style game without the "M", just a "Capcom vs Capcom" game with the MvCI gameplay (without the Infinity Gems) or the UMVC3 gameplay. I mean, it's not like Marvel and Disney did a lot for them in the last crossover, and at least Capcom wouldn't have to deal with Disney forbidding any character (*cough*X-Men*cough*).


Yes! A huge Capcom crossover fighter is long overdue. If Capcom, can't be bothered to bring back Darkstalkers, at least bring a few characters back in a future crossover fighter.





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"Re(6):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Sat 23 Jan 09:55post reply

Speaking of CvS, could SvC:Match of the Millennium be coming to Switch?

And could this be a sign that a CvS3 / SvC2 (or 3 if we count MotM as SvC1 and SvC Chaos as SvC2) maybe is being discussed between both companies?

(or at least that CvS2 may get a port on Switch soon as well?)





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"Re(7):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Sun 24 Jan 01:14post reply

quote:
Speaking of CvS, could SvC:Match of the Millennium be coming to Switch?

And could this be a sign that a CvS3 / SvC2 (or 3 if we count MotM as SvC1 and SvC Chaos as SvC2) maybe is being discussed between both companies?

(or at least that CvS2 may get a port on Switch soon as well?)



All the more reason for me to get a Switch if CvS2 will come out on it!





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"Re(1):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Wed 27 Jan 21:56post reply

Hmm hmm... by the by, is it about time for another SFV lag battle?







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"Re(2):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Thu 28 Jan 01:14post reply

quote:
Hmm hmm... by the by, is it about time for another SFV lag battle?

Could be a PARTY once Dan arrives (never thought I'd say that, but as good an excuse as anyway). Maybe I'll revive the SFV thread next month.





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"Re(3):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Thu 28 Jan 01:33post reply

quote:
Could be a PARTY once Dan arrives (never thought I'd say that, but as good an excuse as anyway). Maybe I'll revive the SFV thread next month.



That reminds me, wasn't Dan supposed to be released by the end of 2020, with the other newcomers each being added with a three-month interval? Will they be delayed as well?

And there's also the mystery of who will be the final SFV character... Haggar? Morrigan? A guest from another company? Well, after USFIV got Decapre, I guess our expectations shouldn't be high.





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"Re(4):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Thu 28 Jan 04:25post reply

quote:
Could be a PARTY once Dan arrives (never thought I'd say that, but as good an excuse as anyway). Maybe I'll revive the SFV thread next month.


That reminds me, wasn't Dan supposed to be released by the end of 2020, with the other newcomers each being added with a three-month interval? Will they be delayed as well?

And there's also the mystery of who will be the final SFV character... Haggar? Morrigan? A guest from another company? Well, after USFIV got Decapre, I guess our expectations shouldn't be high.



Dan was officially delayed to february 2021, the other characters probably will be delayed the same.
https://twitter.com/StreetFighter/status/1339752241876541445





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"Re(5):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Thu 28 Jan 06:03post reply

quote:
Dan was officially delayed to february 2021, the other characters probably will be delayed the same.
https://twitter.com/StreetFighter/status/1339752241876541445



Oh, that's right; thank you for reminding me!

Fortunately, I don't think most SFV players are bothered by Dan being delayed. The problem is the delay for the other fighters...





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"Re(5):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Thu 28 Jan 06:14post reply

quote:
Could be a PARTY once Dan arrives (never thought I'd say that, but as good an excuse as anyway). Maybe I'll revive the SFV thread next month.


That reminds me, wasn't Dan supposed to be released by the end of 2020, with the other newcomers each being added with a three-month interval? Will they be delayed as well?

And there's also the mystery of who will be the final SFV character... Haggar? Morrigan? A guest from another company? Well, after USFIV got Decapre, I guess our expectations shouldn't be high.


Dan was officially delayed to february 2021, the other characters probably will be delayed the same.
https://twitter.com/StreetFighter/status/1339752241876541445



In our present circumstances, I get it. The wait is always the hardest part, since there is a delay for everything these days. I can't wait for summer to get her so by then we'll at least see a little more content for SFV come through.







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"Re(6):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Sun 7 Feb 10:31post reply

I don't know exactly how you figure out the precise date of an arcade game, but it seems that Feb 6th is the 30th anniversary of SF2.







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"Re(7):Fighting Game Thread 2021" , posted Mon 8 Feb 01:02post reply

quote:
I don't know exactly how you figure out the precise date of an arcade game, but it seems that Feb 6th is the 30th anniversary of SF2.



You can use the dates displayed by the games themselves, which SF2 machines conveniently show during start-up. A quick check through MAME find the earliest date is... 1991/02/04... (That doesn't mean the game was actually released on the 4th of course.)

You could look at your company's internal records. Assuming you still have the relevant records. Assuming you kept day-accurate records. Assuming your day-accurate records were actually accurate in the first place. (I particularly think of Jeremy Parish's NES Works series, where he has cited the difficulty in even pinning down accurate release *months* for some games, and has also cited games where Nintendo's officially recognized release months do not match available evidence.) Capcom could really just pick any reasonably possible date and claim it was the anniversary; nearly no one (if anyone at all) would have a means of proving it wrong.


Funny note: Wikipedia lists SF2's release date as simply February 1991. Wikipedia cites a Capcom Japan web page as the source. I clicked through to the Capcom page, which instead cites March 1991.





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"Street Fighter V-11" , posted Fri 12 Feb 03:20:post reply

Moving on from SFII to SFV, Capcom unveiled Eleven today. Yup, like 3rd Strike's Twelve, but not quite. Apparently it may work as some sort of random roulette rather than an actual character.

This could be a disappointing choice, but I guess we learned to lower our expectations after Decapre (plus, I think SFV's roster is already good enough as it is). However, the end of the video shows that Eleven surprisingly isn't the fifth fighter from Season 5, but a bonus DLC - which means the identity of the final SFV newcomer is still unknown (and that Season 5 actually has six characters rather than five).

---

EDIT: oh, there are also gameplay videos for Dan and Rose.





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[this message was edited by Just a Person on Fri 12 Feb 03:38]

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"Re(1):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Fri 12 Feb 04:17post reply

quote:
Moving on from SFII to SFV, Capcom unveiled Eleven today. Yup, like 3rd Strike's Twelve, but not quite. Apparently it may work as some sort of random roulette rather than an actual character.

This could be a disappointing choice, but I guess we learned to lower our expectations after Decapre (plus, I think SFV's roster is already good enough as it is). However, the end of the video shows that Eleven surprisingly isn't the fifth fighter from Season 5, but a bonus DLC - which means the identity of the final SFV newcomer is still unknown (and that Season 5 actually has six characters rather than five).

---

EDIT: oh, there are also gameplay videos for Dan and Rose.



When I read earlier this morning the leak about Eleven I was already thinking about the Decapre disappointment, but at least being a bonus DLC no one should complain.
But that Rose 3D model looks too plastic even for SFV standards.







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"Re(2):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Fri 12 Feb 04:36post reply

I thought Eleven would be Shadow or Marionette, but actually he's Mokujin. Oh, well. He's free and they really weren't obliged to do anything, so, thanks I guess? Unfortunately, while his VS and VT will be randomized, he will be using the default costume of the characters and thus will be a terrible fashion faux-pas on the MMC stage.

As for Dan, he shouts "使わざるを得ねぇ" during his VT1, which is the biggest KyokugenryŻ meme, so I guess that absolves his existence? Rose looks a bit more like her Zero2 self than her SF4 self. I've never been a fan of the character, but less SF4 is always a plus. Also her stage looks nice!

I'm very intrigued by the backdash. That's quite the hefty change, and I wonder if the price of 1 VT gauge will be enough for get-out-of-jail card. On the other hand, if they rebalance the most powerful VT to cost 3 gauges, maybe the trade-off will make sense? Characters that weren't so much dependent on their VT will have a big boost for sure (Claw?). Not sure I'd ever consider this against an Aegis Reflector, on the other hand.
Generally pretty satisfied!







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"Re(3):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Fri 12 Feb 05:41post reply

Random thoughts:

Someone had fun designing Dan. On any other character a one bar v-trigger would be silly but for him it fits.

Rose can hit with her scarf, throw air fireballs, set mines on the screen and has soul satellite as a v-skill? If you thought Poison and Menat were annoying keep-away characters you haven't seen anything yet!

Eleven seems to be there to balance out the select screen and to allow veteran players a way to troll their way through pools during tournaments. That's not much but he's free so whatevs.

V-shift is a really interesting defense mechanic, especially for a game as slap-happy as SF5. I don't know how it will play out but I'm curious to try it for myself.







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"Re(3):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Fri 12 Feb 06:54:post reply

quote:
I thought Eleven would be Shadow or Marionette, but actually he's Mokujin.


He's not even quite Mokujin. Going by the trailer, the name displayed during the match itself is the source character, not Eleven.

quote:
V-shift is a really interesting defense mechanic, especially for a game as slap-happy as SF5. I don't know how it will play out but I'm curious to try it for myself.


I thought it looked interesting at first, but by the end I was wondering if it wasn't broken?

Video shows characters doing full combos off a V-Shift, and ends with Nash landing his super off of a V-Shift. So you can potentially get a free combo/super off of your opponent simply trying to attack you? Without any of the wonkiness or risk of V-Reversal?





[this message was edited by Baines on Fri 12 Feb 08:14]



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"Re(4):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Fri 12 Feb 11:03post reply

quote:
I thought Eleven would be Shadow or Marionette, but actually he's Mokujin.

He's not even quite Mokujin. Going by the trailer, the name displayed during the match itself is the source character, not Eleven.

V-shift is a really interesting defense mechanic, especially for a game as slap-happy as SF5. I don't know how it will play out but I'm curious to try it for myself.

I thought it looked interesting at first, but by the end I was wondering if it wasn't broken?

Video shows characters doing full combos off a V-Shift, and ends with Nash landing his super off of a V-Shift. So you can potentially get a free combo/super off of your opponent simply trying to attack you? Without any of the wonkiness or risk of V-Reversal?



If there's one thing that seems funny about it, it's that throw attempts don't seem to trigger the time slow, only strikes/projectiles. V-Reversals can also be vulnerable to throws.

So is this finally Alex's hour to not be bottom tier?! Or will his attacking be so further repressed that he will get pushed even deeper into the ground?!

A tier list made by three top japanese players that tried to stratify the characters in SFV with as much granularity as possible put Ryu in the bottom-most tier... the "J" tier. I don't know if I've ever seen the letters go that deep!







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"Re(5):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Fri 12 Feb 15:36post reply

Well looking at the few costume previews in the premium pass I guess that answers my question of what the extra Nostalgia outfit was. Cammy had so many outfits that looked almost exactly the same I forgot she didn't actually have that one.

Rose no longer has a neck the size of her head. This has truly been a next-gen moment in gaming. Also soul satellite is a V-skill and her V-trigger I is a teleport... that seems backwards? Uh oh.

You knew Woshige had to slip some kind of Burst mechanic in there before the end. Clearly no fucks are given as to whether it's necessary or not, he's just slamming it on the table and rattling all of the things on the way out.







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"Re(6):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Fri 12 Feb 22:00post reply

quote:
You knew Woshige had to slip some kind of Burst mechanic in there before the end. Clearly no fucks are given as to whether it's necessary or not, he's just slamming it on the table and rattling all of the things on the way out.

The GuiltyGearification of SF is almost complete!

I saw someone call the update Street Fighter striVe.





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"Fighting Game Publishers Roundtable Round 2" , posted Sat 13 Feb 03:39post reply

Another Japan Fighting Game Publishers Roundtable will be held on February 20!

https://www.siliconera.com/japan-fighting-game-publisher-roundtable-2-february-2021/







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"Re(1):Fighting Game Publishers Roundtable Rou" , posted Sat 13 Feb 04:14post reply

This is the sort of thing I'm looking forward to.

quote:
I thought it looked interesting at first, but by the end I was wondering if it wasn't broken?

Video shows characters doing full combos off a V-Shift, and ends with Nash landing his super off of a V-Shift. So you can potentially get a free combo/super off of your opponent simply trying to attack you? Without any of the wonkiness or risk of V-Reversal?


It's certainly going to be different. Things that aren't true blocks strings and frame traps are going to be V-Shifted if players use them mindlessly. Then again, I'm certain people will eventually figure out anti-Shift tech to either trick people into wasting meter blundering into a different attack. I don't know if this new system will ultimately work or not but the concept suggests all sorts of possibilities. It's certainly better than a new CA.

quote:
Another Japan Fighting Game Publishers Roundtable will be held on February 20!

https://www.siliconera.com/japan-fighting-game-publisher-roundtable-2-february-2021/


Nice! The last one had some interesting stuff so I hope this one has good discussion as well.







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"Re(1):Fighting Game Publishers Roundtable Rou" , posted Sat 13 Feb 04:14post reply

This is the sort of thing I'm looking forward to.

quote:
I thought it looked interesting at first, but by the end I was wondering if it wasn't broken?

Video shows characters doing full combos off a V-Shift, and ends with Nash landing his super off of a V-Shift. So you can potentially get a free combo/super off of your opponent simply trying to attack you? Without any of the wonkiness or risk of V-Reversal?


It's certainly going to be different. Things that aren't true blocks strings and frame traps are going to be V-Shifted if players use them mindlessly. Then again, I'm certain people will eventually figure out anti-Shift tech to either trick people into wasting meter blundering into a different attack. I don't know if this new system will ultimately work or not but the concept suggests all sorts of possibilities. It's certainly better than a new CA.

quote:
Another Japan Fighting Game Publishers Roundtable will be held on February 20!

https://www.siliconera.com/japan-fighting-game-publisher-roundtable-2-february-2021/


Nice! The last one had some interesting stuff so I hope this one has good discussion as well.





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"Gimme Rose!" , posted Sat 13 Feb 06:34post reply

quote:

Rose no longer has a neck the size of her head. This has truly been a next-gen moment in gaming. Also soul satellite is a V-skill and her V-trigger I is a teleport... that seems backwards? Uh oh.



Yes, Rose looks spectacular! Such an improvement aesthetically from SFIV in every way! I also love her stage remake from SFA2.







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"Re(7):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Sun 14 Feb 15:17post reply

quote:
I saw someone call the update Street Fighter striVe.
Amazing. While Iíd prefer the Guiltyification of SF to mean using its magnificent visuals rather than its incomprehensible battle systems, Iím sure someone here can explain to me what the new SFV system is, right? ...right? A better Zero Counter? SFIIIís finicky blocking/parrying?

While itís nice to get minor updates for free or very little rather than paying full price like the old days, itís kind of a drag that the older versions of SFV are basically obliterated whether you like the increasing bloat or not. What if season (fill in the blank) was the best, but we can never see it again?! I enjoy SFV a lot, but that sure is a lot to explain to a newcomer when you try to get them into the game!

One thingís for sure:
quote:
Such an improvement aesthetically from SFIV in every way
Whether this is about Rose or even the weakest parts of SFV, itís still true! Except Necalli. But then, heís a good counter argument to what I wrote above, and we can be happy that five seasons in, itís like he never existed.





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"Re(8):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Mon 15 Feb 03:21post reply

quote:
I saw someone call the update Street Fighter striVe. Amazing. While Iíd prefer the Guiltyification of SF to mean using its magnificent visuals rather than its incomprehensible battle systems, Iím sure someone here can explain to me what the new SFV system is, right? ...right? A better Zero Counter? SFIIIís finicky blocking/parrying?


This video did a good job of breaking down what limited information we have of the system. It looks strong at the moment but since Capcom is trying to sell us a used car they are going to make V-Shift look as cool as possible and not show us how it could be countered or what drawbacks it might have. For example, how does V-Shift handle cross-ups? There will be much to explore in the next MMCafe Danfest.

quote:
While itís nice to get minor updates for free or very little rather than paying full price like the old days, itís kind of a drag that the older versions of SFV are basically obliterated whether you like the increasing bloat or not. What if season (fill in the blank) was the best, but we can never see it again?! I enjoy SFV a lot, but that sure is a lot to explain to a newcomer when you try to get them into the game!


I do find it frustrating that current fighting games rarely have the ability to rewind the dial. If I don't like V-Shift I'm going to be out of luck when it comes to SF5 next month. Doesn't everyone want the opportunity to go back to the version of SF4 where Yun was stupidly overpowered or the version of Tekken 7 where Leroy was stupidly overpowered or the version of DBFZ where Bardock was stupidly overpowered or...

Er, I lost my train of thought. Anyway, it would be nice to have a wayback machine built into constantly updated games just for the sake of historical research.

quote:
One thingís for sure: Such an improvement aesthetically from SFIV in every way Whether this is about Rose or even the weakest parts of SFV, itís still true! Except Necalli. But then, heís a good counter argument to what I wrote above, and we can be happy that five seasons in, itís like he never existed.

If SF was a television show or other type of serialized story Necalli would have been written out ages ago. Instead, both the players and producers have agreed to shun Necalli, leaving him to loiter aimlessly on the select screen until SF6 gives him the boot. Perhaps he could be redeemed in a future game? Here's an idea: Blanka could understand his plight and help bring him into civilization. Instead of muttering about eating warriors, Necalli could become fixated on VTubers or some other niche of modern life. On second thought, they should just bring back Rufus; his win quotes were terrific.







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"Re(9):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Mon 15 Feb 11:42post reply

Thanks! Rather than the dreary, technical SFIII Blocking/Parrying, it sounds a bit more like Soul Calibur's Guard Impact, or even that moment of slow-motion invincibility you get in the SF Zero series when you start an Original Combo/Custom Combo. Whatever it is, as someone who's successfully used the V-Reversal approximately once in his life, I'm interested in another defense move!

I am looking forward to Danfest and can probably host in early March.

ALSO, is that a Mr. Karate outfit I see for him in the season pass advertisements?! Dan lost his way in the years where SNK was in too pathetic a situation to make fun of it, but now that they seem (??) to be doing slightly better, maybe it's time for Dan to go all-in.
quote:
Blanka could understand his plight and help bring him into civilization.
they should just bring back Rufus; his win quotes were terrific.
Remarkably, Blanka manages to become an expressive, thoughtful character in comparison to Necalli.

Rufus is the final Season 5 character we all deserve, but even he would be more interesting than another SFIII character like Twelve, or Eleven I guess.





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"Re(10):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Mon 15 Feb 17:05post reply

Do we know anything about the input for this V-Shift?
They have already used almost all buttons combinations in that game, what is left? Back + all punches or kicks?







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"Re(2):Re(10):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Tue 16 Feb 15:43post reply

quote:
Do we know anything about the input for this V-Shift?
They have already used almost all buttons combinations in that game, what is left? Back + all punches or kicks?



I don't have the link, but according to the JP blog it's HP+MK, which was further verified in a weird Twitter post from the other day where some Capcom EU guy showed off his favorite arcade stick. It had white buttons, except his HP and MK buttons were mysteriously black instead. Golly





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"Re(3):Re(10):Street Fighter V-11" , posted Tue 16 Feb 17:30post reply

quote:

I don't have the link, but according to the JP blog it's HP+MK, which was further verified in a weird Twitter post from the other day where some Capcom EU guy showed off his favorite arcade stick. It had white buttons, except his HP and MK buttons were mysteriously black instead. Golly



Weird combination choice!







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"Re(1):Gimme Rose!" , posted Wed 17 Feb 04:22post reply

I really don't like some of the things with Rose right now, but I presume it's still early and will be improved.

Her idle pose is bizarrely stiff, and doesn't express either her sense of elegant dignity or the supple power she expressed in SFA. The animation of the shawl returning to her makes the shawl appear tiny in a way that looks ugly. Her drill attack has a really weak pose to it that again doesn't express a sense of terrific power or poise.







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"Re(2):Gimme Rose!" , posted Wed 17 Feb 10:15post reply

quote:
I really don't like some of the things with Rose right now, but I presume it's still early and will be improved.

Her idle pose is bizarrely stiff, and doesn't express either her sense of elegant dignity or the supple power she expressed in SFA. The animation of the shawl returning to her makes the shawl appear tiny in a way that looks ugly. Her drill attack has a really weak pose to it that again doesn't express a sense of terrific power or poise.



What bugs me about Rose's shawl is that it so very obviously has no physical volume. You'd normally have to go back to the PS2 or even the PS1 era to find something so unapologetically blatant about just being a completely 2D rectangle.

As for Rose's own animations, I blame the motion capture. Capcom included footage from the mo-cap session. I'm sure the mo-cap actress was skilled. I don't know if she was told to perform the moves slowly to aid in the capture process or if the devs just intended for the kick to be a slow move, but the result is that her Soul Piede looked slow, awkward, and weak. It probably didn't help that the person holding the target mitt had to support her weight and even helped push her back for the recovery.

After seeing that mo-cap footage, the rest of the in-game footage looked similar. Nothing had "punch". There is no oversell or snap. Angles and animation speed don't look like they were chosen for what looks best, but rather what the mo-cap crew felt they could deliver. Rose's in-game animation honestly made me think of early Mortal Kombat (though obviously more fluid), where the actors had to move slowly and hold poses.







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"Re(3):Gimme Rose!" , posted Wed 17 Feb 21:05post reply

I agree with most of the criticisms on Rose (especially her horrible hair, urgh), but then again, not only is it still WIP (the gap between some overanimated moves and the underanimated ones is huge) but also I've always found her one of the worst characters of Zero in that aspect. Yes, I know the Lisalisa reference, but I've never found the shawl particularly well done, and half of her moves didn't seem convincing to me. There's only so much you can do on such a canvas... Maybe they could have tried to redesign her toolset and design, but I guess that's what Menat did already...
Oh, well. I'm mostly intrigued to see what they'll do to Oro, who seems to have the most interesting premise (on top of being a much better designed character initially).







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"Re(3):Gimme Rose!" , posted Thu 18 Feb 05:02post reply

quote:

After seeing that mo-cap footage, the rest of the in-game footage looked similar. Nothing had "punch". There is no oversell or snap. Angles and animation speed don't look like they were chosen for what looks best, but rather what the mo-cap crew felt they could deliver. Rose's

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


Yup, I saw the footage and I immediately knew why I always felt weirded out by the animation on the modern SF games. I assumed the mo-cap was to guide animators who would manually end up animating the characters but I doubt that's the case since full mo-cap to game engine is usually cheaper than having staff manually animating something.





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"Re(4):Gimme Rose!" , posted Fri 19 Feb 08:56post reply

quote:

After seeing that mo-cap footage, the rest of the in-game footage looked similar. Nothing had "punch". There is no oversell or snap. Angles and animation speed don't look like they were chosen for what looks best, but rather what the mo-cap crew felt they could deliver. Rose's

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --

Yup, I saw the footage and I immediately knew why I always felt weirded out by the animation on the modern SF games. I assumed the mo-cap was to guide animators who would manually end up animating the characters but I doubt that's the case since full mo-cap to game engine is usually cheaper than having staff manually animating something.



See, one team of animators I knew (among which one of whom is a martial arts master, one of whom was a competitive boxer) would take the approach of doing mocap to get all the motions done quickly, but with the understanding that they would all require cleanup and retiming: this ranges from the simple cleanup of removing little bits of undesired movements/jittering, to adjusting the gross duration for the game, and for adjusting the timing of the parts of the motion so that the right parts are emphasized.

This is really important because certain moments representing things like the area where it will actually hit things you want emphasized, while the little motions in and out of that you don't want emphasized. If the little motions that don't seem like they should deal damage or effects do, players always feel that "the game is janky", even if the durations are ok. On top of that, a lot of the snappy look of attacks in video games and animations are not the way people move in real life, and this has further style implications if your game is like a more than 2 player multiplayer game that doesn't have a lot of hitstop going on.





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"Re(5):Gimme Strive!" , posted Fri 19 Feb 14:45post reply

It's been extremly cold here that I haven't been able to post anything via PC at all lately but I wanted to note that there's an open beta going on for Guilty Gear Strive starting today! The client is available from the PSN store and playing online does not require PSPlus membership. In the JP store it was hard to find the client-- going into the full product page and scrolling down, it was there.

There's unfortunately no crossplay and no way to make a members-only lounge during this beta (ergo setting a lagfest room won't be possible), but the netcode is reportedly excellent! So anyone interested, let's have some games!





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"Re(6):Gimme Strive!" , posted Fri 19 Feb 14:46post reply

quote:
It's been extremly cold here that I haven't been able to post anything via PC at all lately but I wanted to note that there's an open beta going on for Guilty Gear Strive starting today! The client is available from the PSN store and playing online does not require PSPlus membership. In the JP store it was hard to find the client-- going into the full product page and scrolling down, it was there. Easier to find via PSN Store on the web.

There's unfortunately no crossplay and no way to make a members-only lounge during this beta (ergo setting a lagfest room won't be possible), but the netcode is reportedly excellent! So anyone interested, let's have some games!









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"Re(6):Gimme Strive!" , posted Fri 19 Feb 23:27post reply

quote:
It's been extremly cold here that I haven't been able to post anything via PC at all lately but I wanted to note that there's an open beta going on for Guilty Gear Strive starting today! The client is available from the PSN store and playing online does not require PSPlus membership. In the JP store it was hard to find the client-- going into the full product page and scrolling down, it was there.

There's unfortunately no crossplay and no way to make a members-only lounge during this beta (ergo setting a lagfest room won't be possible), but the netcode is reportedly excellent! So anyone interested, let's have some games!


Thanks for the recommendation of where to look on the PSN store, that beta was hidden under a rock.

I'm still downloading but I'm impatient for impressions. Anyone have any thought on what they have played? Is it any good? How does it compare to other GG games?





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"Re(7):Strive to Log In" , posted Sat 20 Feb 17:18:post reply

quote:
I'm still downloading but I'm impatient for impressions. Anyone have any thought on what they have played? Is it any good? How does it compare to other GG games?



The general consensus which I'd agree on is that it feels like Granblue Fantasy Versus with an air-dash and roman cancel system (if you don't know Granblue Fantasy, just think of it as a SFZ2 where everyone bonks each other with a medival weapon). It feels very friendly to Street Fighter players since much of the fat that gave Guilty Gear its yummy taste has been trimmed off. There's very little vertical screen movement. I recall how Maou couldn't comprehend Guilty Gear Xrd since everything was so different, but that shouldn't be as much a problem now.

1/Aerial combos are almost non-existant and there's no aerial recovery system. You don't really see characters flying all over the screen and flashing like in previous iterations.

2/Wakeup games are at a bare minimal since it's very hard to knock down the opponent. In previous games, players new to Guilty Gear would get utterly pulverized once they got knocked down because offense is extremely strong in the Guilty Gear series. With the walls also becoming breakable, now it's mostly about the neutral game. The developers reportedly wanted to get rid of 50/50 mixups.

3/Roman Cancels are certainly in the game but I think it's too early to tell how useful they are. They universally cost the same amount of meter as a super now (50%). Given that supers are pretty good in this game, players might end up with different feelings on how good they are depending on their character. Generally speaking though, it seems a lot easier to gain meter in Strive compared to older titles.

4/Crossups seem to be weak in general. The jump attacks don't have much hitbox on their back, and even if they hit/blocked, the opponent gets 'knocked away' (rather than knocked towards) and there's enough distance that you can't land a close-up combo.

5/Attacks do a lot of damage; you simply do not want to get hit in this game. A meterless combo can do 50% damage. Normal throws do a lot of damage too.

6/The graphics and other details are just awesome. There's many things in this game that are probably going to be missed out by hardcore fighting game players that aren't appreciating the smaller details placed in by the development staff. For example, Millia's normal/weak kick alone has probably about 10 frames of animation, which is quite something when considering most games have 3-5 frames. About half of the frames are used in pullback motion, which can be canceled with any motion (including blocking). As usual for Guilty Gear the characters have multiple taunts; some of them include very long conversations or monologues, which also comes in various patterns. I think the developers just stepped into a new league of character creation after coming up with Answer (the businessman ninja) in Rev2.

--

Now, about this beta test overall--- thus far, it hasn't been a great experience. I played very little, maybe an hour max. I haven't had time to commit playing it, but within what I could, it felt like a LOG-IN GAME from the good ol' mmorpg days. Apparently the server overload was beyond what Arc System Works had expected since it's a free beta that anyone can play without even paying for PSPlus. Past midnight, the servers just died and didn't kick back until noon.

I tried playing a little again during late lunch break but the servers still continue to go on and off. The awful thing is that the game keeps surveillance even during offline modes and kicks back to the title screen if there's no connection. This is probably just for the beta client as it's apparently how Arc System Works is making sure it's not playable outside of the testing period.





[this message was edited by Professor on Sat 20 Feb 17:32]



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"Re(8):Strive to Log In" , posted Sat 20 Feb 22:26post reply

quote:
1/Aerial combos are almost non-existant and there's no aerial recovery system. You don't really see characters flying all over the screen and flashing like in previous iterations.

2/Wakeup games are at a bare minimal since it's very hard to knock down the opponent. In previous games, players new to Guilty Gear would get utterly pulverized once they got knocked down because offense is extremely strong in the Guilty Gear series. With the walls also becoming breakable, now it's mostly about the neutral game. The developers reportedly wanted to get rid of 50/50 mixups.

3/Roman Cancels are certainly in the game but I think it's too early to tell how useful they are. They universally cost the same amount of meter as a super now (50%). Given that s

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


Those seem like contradicting experiences compared to what I have seen Prof. I may have watched around 20 or more hours from all kind of players (Jiyuna, JustinW, Max, Valle, Sonic, Go1, Sajam, T5M7, etc) and their gameplay shown isn't quite as that.

There are aerial combos, Chipp specially have some pretty flashy ones. They aren't as long as before (as they should be because of the damage) but they are around. I expect seeing spectacular stuff coming from characters with double/triple jump and dash. They mostly have been replaced by wall combos though. Man, those Chipp combos are so sweet, even if they aren't optimal.

There are going to be a lot of mix ups and okizeme, that's the way fighting games are. Sure they got rid of several situations where it was tough, but players will break the game sooner or later. It's just a matter of time.

Practically every single player I see burn all their meter only on roman cancels, Justin may play 20 matches and just use a super once. Literally. It's so useful to guarantee damage (on such a damaging game) and bait bursts. On top, it just feels so GOOD to use them. And the slowdown purple defensive variation it's so cool to master. The meter filling so fast gives people so much freedom. Even if people aren't using many supers at high level, the option is always there.

The crossup game I saw of Gio and Leo was looking nice. Millia was made to abuse them; though, I wish more people were playing her. People are still discovering stuff.

Poor Chipp is the posterboy of 100% combo videos going around. He even dies on a single super on counter hit (Ram with 2 swords.)

I saw SonicFox playing Go1 on crappy Wi-fi (intentionally) and they said it felt really good. What a holy blessing netcode is. It'll cement a precedent for the future of all fighting games. I'm dying to play with people all over the world. Not being a console peasant have never hurt me as much. Take a look at these really fun matches played by T5M7 and Sajam; both are delighted by the experience of being able to play from so far away (you can hunt T5M7 POV on his channel.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kdWknykuBk

One thing I have seen thrown around is that the build players are testing is an old one from months ago. How much can they polish this game if this is true? What a beautiful videogame.





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"Re(9):Strive to Log In" , posted Sun 21 Feb 01:51:post reply

quote:
Those seem like contradicting experiences compared to what I have seen Prof. I may have watched around 20 or more hours from all kind of players (Jiyuna, JustinW, Max, Valle, Sonic, Go1, Sajam, T5M7, etc) and their gameplay shown isn't quite as that.

There are aerial combos, Chipp specially have some pretty flashy ones. They aren't as long as before (as they should be because of the damage) but they are around. I expect seeing spectacular stuff coming from characters with double/triple jump and dash. They mostly have been replaced by wall combos though. Man, those Chipp combos are so sweet, even if they aren't optimal.


Thanks for the input Sasha!
On a related note, I need to fix myself about crossups! They're extremely dependent on the opponent character's hurtbox.

1/ I've over-emphasized by saying aerial combos are non-existant, thank you for correcting me. I also realized that I should've said aerial rave style of aerial combos; as you said, the game has a lot of aerial combos, just that they're relatively short compared to before.

2/ At the current time, okis seem a lot less prevelant compared to previous iterations of Guilty Gear. Yes this can change through the course of the game's lifespan as players find more and more ways to break the game. But that's beyond gameplay impressions that I can make from the current open beta period. On a semi-related note, the input window for wakeup reversals feel extremely lenient compared to Xrd.


Oh instant kills... they may not be missed, but at least if the game had certain moves that transitioned to their flashy a cutscenes if done as a finisher.





[this message was edited by Professor on Sun 21 Feb 04:21]



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"Re(10):Strive to Log In" , posted Sun 21 Feb 05:33post reply

Thanks for the input everyone! Here are my thoughts as someone who occasionally dabbles in GG.

First off, it took me some time to get into the fool thing. I've heard that one of the missions of betas is to test to see if the servers will crash. Getting in was a pain so mission accomplished, I guess.

Once in I played through the wholly inadequate intro/tutorial. It was nice to get caught up on the Sol/Ky bromance but the explanation for how to play the game was so sparse it didn't even mention roman cancels. Since that mechanic is the raison d'Ítre for the franchise to exist I thought it might come up in the conversation.

The game looks great. While I have always felt that GG has good individual frames of character movement but the fights become so frantic that the actual animation ends up being choppy. That's not the case here. For example, Zato-1 has always been an imaginative character but now he has enough frames of animation to really bring him and his goopy friend Eddie to life.

New characters: Giovanna's dog is cute but that's all the further I got with her. Nagoriyuki is very slick looking and has all sorts of nice touches, such as Kuniyoshi artwork reflecting on his sword. His blood mechanic might be interesting but everyone seemed to die long before I could make proper use of it. Speaking of which...

When it comes to the gameplay... I don't know. I always associated GG with fast movement and rapid attacks. This doesn't have either. Instead, Strive has more deliberate movement and insane damage. If you knock someone through the side of the screen they're barely going to have enough health to get back on their feet. Professor's comparison to GBFV is apt, but even that game had more going on with the one button specials. In the end Strive reminds me of the first SF3 game; a pretty, high damage game that has been so pared down that it may have lost something vital. I wonder how regular GG players are going to react to an entry that plays so differently.







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"Re(2):Re(10):Strive to Log In" , posted Mon 22 Feb 00:38post reply

quote:
I recall how Maou couldn't comprehend Guilty Gear Xrd since everything was so different
Hahaha, itís totally true. I apologize to everyone in advance for being the reason Arc potentially ruined Guilty Gear.

Then again, maybe they noticed that people like me played Xrd for a puzzled four hours in total while sinking 150+ hours and a great many dollars into the much uglier SFV, and made a management decision.

Ironically, Iíll probably still never play Strive, but you better believe JJJ and I will be watching from the sidelines while cheering on the great art and ROCK AND ROLL attitude, as usual.





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"Re(3):Re(10):Strive to Log In" , posted Mon 22 Feb 02:03post reply

quote:
Ironically, Iíll probably still never play Strive, but you better believe JJJ and I will be watching from the sidelines while cheering on the great art and ROCK AND ROLL attitude, as usual.


Speaking of rock 'n' roll, I-No and her axe are back. Those new sunglasses are pretty keen.







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"Re(4):Re(10):Strive to Log In" , posted Tue 23 Feb 08:22post reply

Counter hit into double post!

To round out my time with the Strive beta I tried out the online. Holy incomprehensibility Batman! I had heard the complaints about the way Strive handles setting up matches but it didn't prepare me for the absurdity of the actual experience. This must have been a pet idea of someone at the top because I can't imagine a group of people all agreed that this was a good idea. The matches were actually quite good the few times I managed to make my little pixel man find an opponent.







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"Dead or More Dead" , posted Thu 1 Apr 08:55post reply

DoA director Shimbori leaves Tecmo/Koei.

In the past several years DoA has tried to find a balance between being able to sit at the big boy table with the competitive fighting games and appeasing the horny whales who buy all those costumes. Too bad the rushed and underfunded DoA6 annoyed both groups. Hopefully Shimbori's next project doesn't have him trying to go in so many different directions at once.





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"Re(1):Dead or More Dead" , posted Thu 1 Apr 22:02post reply

quote:
DoA director Shimbori leaves Tecmo/Koei.

In the past several years DoA has tried to find a balance between being able to sit at the big boy table with the competitive fighting games and appeasing the horny whales who buy all those costumes. Too bad the rushed and underfunded DoA6 annoyed both groups. Hopefully Shimbori's next project doesn't have him trying to go in so many different directions at once.



...Does that mean the end of the DoA franchise? Itagaki left before, and now Shimbori... that doesn't look good.

That's sad. DoA maybe wasn't the best game from a competitive point of view, but it was definitely fun to play.





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"MK codes" , posted Tue 13 Apr 04:47post reply

An interesting anecdote from John Tobias about how roster choices were made on the early Mortal Kombat games. The idea that they were going to the local pizza parlors and typing in secret codes in order to decide the future of the franchise is a reminder of how indie garage band the whole arcade scene of the early 1990's was.





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"Re(1):MK codes" , posted Tue 13 Apr 06:11:post reply

quote:
An interesting anecdote from John Tobias about how roster choices were made on the early Mortal Kombat games. The idea that they were going to the local pizza parlors and typing in secret codes in order to decide the future of the franchise is a reminder of how indie garage band the whole arcade scene of the early 1990's was.



So they intentionally left Scorpion, Reptile and Kitana out of MK3 not because they didn't have time to add them to it, but because they already intended to release UMK3 some months later, before vanilla MK3 was even released?

That's... well, in short term, this is kinda clever, as they could sell the same game twice (not so different from Capcom's (in)famous SFII upgrades). In long term, however, this hurt considerably MK3's reputation, with most of the fanbase considering vanilla MK3 as a very underwhelming sequel and UMK3 as a sequel that actually brought several problems that the original version didn't have, like removing the ending illustrations or forcing the players to revisit twice the four/five new stages before all the other stages even begin to appear (meaning you would likely not get to see some of the coolest stages like The Soul Chamber, The Temple and The Bell Tower, while having to visit the boring Waterfront twice).

Not cool.

EDIT: As for Tobias's explanation for roster changes, it makes sense. There was a lot of speculation ever since the 1990s that Johnny Cage was killed off before MK3 because Daniel Pesina quit, but when we think about it, this doesn't make sense; at least four characters present in vanilla MK3 (Liu Kang, Sub-Zero, Shang Tsung and Sonya) were also played by different actors in the first two games, yet these characters were all brought back to MK3, while Baraka (who was played by Richard Divizio, who is in MK3 as the digital actor for Kano and Kabal) was left out.

It also makes us wonder: had they checked the arcade machines in different locations than the ones they checked, MKII and MK3 could have had quite different rosters... Sonya and Kano could have been playable in MKII while Johnny Cage would be the one chained in Shao Kahn's arena, or Baraka and Cage (with a different actor) could have been in MK3 while Kung Lao's name would have been in the grave in the Graveyard stage rather than Cage's name.

I guess only MK11's Kronika would know these possibilities.





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[this message was edited by Just a Person on Tue 20 Apr 00:01]