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| Sensenic 1693th Post
 
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
 
    
    
    
    
|  "Latestest SSFIV Thread" , posted Thu 18 Mar 18:18
Since the other one is way too clogged (and it reached a nice round number too, 150), I decided I'd make a new one.
Let us start by posting sth I'm quite surprised it hasn't been discussed here yet:
Ono would like to make a new Darkstalkers for his next project
 
Now, seeing what they've achieved in facial expression and overall comical deformation effects in SSF4, I say it does at least pique my interest!
Also, he wanted R. Mika to be in the game but couldn't get away with it.
A pity she didn't make it, but then again, how many grapplers would that have meant?
And to finish
quote:
For the record, if this is Juri's stage, then I'll have to say, that I find it out of place for one of the villains to be fighting in such a homely environment. It feels so out of place, that it is almost like a 5 year old child that doesn't quake in panic next to "my years 50's B monster movie" like presence.
I'd say Capcom played that safe already by declaring that stages are not character-based (or at least I recall reading so? Somewhere? ^_^;; )
Therefore Korea stage is not necessarily related to Juri.
Mannerly Highbrow politely asks you to play MS Paint Adventures.
Also play:
"Don't give me that crap about real life. There ain't no such animal."
-Felix Leiter-
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| karasu99 315th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(2):Latestest SSFIV Thread" , posted Fri 19 Mar 01:23
quote:
The new Darkstalkers worries me. Is Ono so sensitive to making another one TODAY? DS is a purely otaku-fan based game, not a mainstream success like SF. Also, giving it the art style of SFIV is a wrong step, it's no so "anime" and fits more a western aestethic. Better go on with TvC graphics but hi-res.
I cringe to think of a 3D Darkstalkers, really, but I'm glad it hasn't even been discussed until now, when 3D graphics can finally do it some measure of justice. Imagine what it would have been like back in the Street Fighter EX days. Also, I think there is enough 'cartooniness' to the SFIV graphics engine that I think pushing it slightly further is definitely possible, and might even be decent looking. I just don't know why they would bother to do it-- Vampire Savior is pretty close to perfect, game wise, and I can't imagine it could be improved upon by a new game, 3D or otherwise.
Also, I don't mind DeeJay and T. Hawk in SFVI, although Rolento would have been quite welcome! He could have had a HnK alternate outfit!
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| nobinobita 702th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(3):Latestest SSFIV Thread" , posted Sat 20 Mar 00:53
quote:
I cringe to think of a 3D Darkstalkers, really, but I'm glad it hasn't even been discussed until now, when 3D graphics can finally do it some measure of justice. Imagine what it would have been like back in the Street Fighter EX days. Also, I think there is enough 'cartooniness' to the SFIV graphics engine that I think pushing it slightly further is definitely possible, and might even be decent looking. I just don't know why they would bother to do it-- Vampire Savior is pretty close to perfect, game wise, and I can't imagine it could be improved upon by a new game, 3D or otherwise.
I don't think there's any way they could redo Darkstalkers properly in 3d. If they can't do cloth animation properly in 3d (look at how stiff all the gis look in SFIV vs III, especially Makoto) then there's no way they can recreate all the CRAZY traditionally animated distortions that occur in DarkStalkers. The things they do in Dark Stalkers are very particular to 2d. It just wouldn't translate and still have the same character.
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| Spoon 1916th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
 
| "Re(4):Latestest SSFIV Thread" , posted Sat 20 Mar 03:44
quote:
I cringe to think of a 3D Darkstalkers, really, but I'm glad it hasn't even been discussed until now, when 3D graphics can finally do it some measure of justice. Imagine what it would have been like back in the Street Fighter EX days. Also, I think there is enough 'cartooniness' to the SFIV graphics engine that I think pushing it slightly further is definitely possible, and might even be decent looking. I just don't know why they would bother to do it-- Vampire Savior is pretty close to perfect, game wise, and I can't imagine it could be improved upon by a new game, 3D or otherwise.
I don't think there's any way they could redo Darkstalkers properly in 3d. If they can't do cloth animation properly in 3d (look at how stiff all the gis look in SFIV vs III, especially Makoto) then there's no way they can recreate all the CRAZY traditionally animated distortions that occur in DarkStalkers. The things they do in Dark Stalkers are very particular to 2d. It just wouldn't translate and still have the same character.
One of the things I wonder about in this regard is whether or not continuously simulated dynamic materials are actually a benefit.
Put another way:
Take any 3S character with some kind of element that seems to have free-flowing movement, like Makoto's headband/necktie, Ibuki's hair, etc. They look great, and nobody really cares how genuinely realistic they are when they snap from one animation to another, whether due to chaining/cancelling or being hit. They look GOOD.
A lot of 3D games with cloth/hair/other dynamic elements have those elements tweaked and tuned, but their exact behaviour from one frame to the next is the result of simulation, as opposed to some invariant predefined keyframes.
If all of those parts that are simulated are instead animated by hand and have their dynamic aspect removed... would the game look better or worse? In 3D action games, that dynamic quality is pleasant; as preposterously as it dangled and jangled, Hitman 47's characteristic red neck tie looks better and makes him seem more alive because its behaviour from 47's movements is not canned. On the other hand, in fighting games where rigidly fixed behaviours is the norm, would the loss of that dynamic behaviour actually be detracting? I don't know.
Meticulously animating 3D cloth and the like by hand is a process that most people would really rather not do, though.
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| Ishmael 3727th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Latestest SSFIV Thread" , posted Mon 22 Mar 04:37
quote:
One of the things I wonder about in this regard is whether or not continuously simulated dynamic materials are actually a benefit.
Put another way:
Take any 3S character with some kind of element that seems to have free-flowing movement, like Makoto's headband/necktie, Ibuki's hair, etc. They look great, and nobody really cares how genuinely realistic they are when they snap from one animation to another, whether due to chaining/cancelling or being hit. They look GOOD.
A lot of 3D games with cloth/hair/other dynamic elements have those elements tweaked and tuned, but their exact behaviour from one frame to the next is the result of simulation, as opposed to some invariant predefined keyframes.
If all of those parts that are simulated are instead animated by hand and have their dynamic aspect removed... would the game look better or worse? In 3D action games, that dynamic quality is pleasant; as preposterously as it dangled and jangled, Hitman 47's characteristic red neck tie looks better and makes him seem more alive because its behaviour from 47's movements is not canned. On the other hand, in fighting games where rigidly fixed behaviours is the norm, would the loss of that dynamic behaviour actually be detracting? I don't know.
Meticulously animating 3D cloth and the like by hand is a process that most people would really rather not do, though.
Now that I think about it, I realize I haven't paid any attention to how Makoto's ascot animates in SSF4. I know that Ryu's headband doesn't move according to pre-determined animation and it looks fine. But Makoto's scarf is often used to emphasize movement so it might have to occasionally be animated or at least have something to get it moving when she is doing certain attacks. Oh well, I'll have plenty of time to eyeball that sort of thing when I get the game.
At least the moving character pieces in SF4 don't clip as badly as the hair on the DoA girls. It probably helps that instead of the thin hair strands of DoA, the mobile items in SF4, including the hair, are big chunks. Street Fighters don't believe in using conditioner.
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| Ishmael 3730th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):New match videos (+ Shadaloo Dolls???)" , posted Tue 23 Mar 10:36
Double post!
quote:
Not really new information, but this week several new match videos (most of them quite interesting) were posted in YouTube.
I guess this is the first time we see the second version of Seth's final scenario (in the first Abel vs. Dudley match). Notice the creepy coffin-like machines in the background, that fall during the fight, and notice that there are silhouettes inside them... remembering of that trailer about a SSFIV OVA featuring Juri, I wonder: are these silhouettes Juli, Juni and the other Shadaloo Dolls??
Poor gals, I hope someone can rescue them...
First off, it was nice to see SSF4 being played by people who knew what they were doing.
As for the people in the tubes, aren't those the leftover Seths from SF4? Say what you will about Shadaloo, they always produce plenty of spare parts in case something goes wrong. No matter who those people are, it's good to see people stuffed in tubes. You can't have a Capcom game unless people are stuffed in tubes.
To make this post be somewhat useful, here's the opening montage just in case you haven't seen it yet.
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| Just a Person 1354th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(2):New match videos (+ Shadaloo Dolls???)" , posted Wed 24 Mar 00:07
quote:
As for the people in the tubes, aren't those the leftover Seths from SF4? Say what you will about Shadaloo, they always produce plenty of spare parts in case something goes wrong. No matter who those people are, it's good to see people stuffed in tubes. You can't have a Capcom game unless people are stuffed in tubes.
To make this post be somewhat useful, here's the opening montage just in case you haven't seen it yet.
Could be the leftover Seths, but the silhouettes inside these tubes look feminine... plus, Juri's anime trailer shows the Dolls being put inside similar capsules than the ones in this scenario (check the video at 1:55). I'm not saying that this confirms the people in the tubes are the Dolls, but it is a possibility.
Anyway, today 1UP showed the prologues to 9 of the 10 new fighters (let's remember, the prologues to the other 25 fighters are also being remade; poor Dee Jay was forgotten). Instead of animated sequences, they are mostly still images - the images look good, though.
More interesting than that, however, is the information we gather from these videos:
* Apparently, Super SFIV is another fighting tournament (Dudley and Juri are invited, Makoto and Hakan say they will participate of it), instead of random fighters wandering randomly around the world and randomly fighting each other (like the Alpha series).
* T.Hawk never managed to rescue Julia (a.k.a. Juli) from Shadaloo in Street Fighter Alpha 3.
* Dudley's car has been stolen... could that mean that Super SFIV takes place shortly before SFIII?
* Cody went back to prison after SF Alpha 3. The wall of his jail cell is smashed, but the police officer does nothing when he leaves... I guess either Cody got released (but then, why is he still handcuffed?) or the officer respects (or fears) him enough to let him run away.
* Ibuki is... chasing men?? That's sad.
* Curiously, Adon's prologue shows him despising Sagat for retiring from the Muay Thai scene and because Sagat was defeated by him... didn't Sagat retake his Muay Thai champion title by beating Adon up in his SFIV prologue?
* Hakan is quite neurotic with the secret recipe of his oil (I felt sorry for the poor punk lad he beat up, the guy wasn't even trying anything).
* Juri is a psychotic bitch. We already knew that, but it's always good to remember.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Just a Person 1382th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):Latest Junk" , posted Fri 23 Apr 03:27
quote:
I'm not watching videos, don't want to ruin too much surprises in the game (to me knowing the entire cast is already a sort of spoiler), but I'm listening the ost.
It's different from the techno attracts of the trailers, the old remixes from sf4 are still present but the new ones are very good.
Fei Long is for now my favourite, with Ibuki and Dhalsim...they work very well with SF atmosphere that insert typical country traits in their characters.
Juri theme is horrible. Really, one of the worst musics in the game.
Really? That's interesting.
Fei-Long and Dhalsim had no themes in SFIV, correct? Do the characters that had themes in SFIV (like Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li and everyone else) get new remixes for their themes or are they still with the old remixes from vanilla SFIV?
Bad news for Juri; the girl is so devilish, sexy and cool, I expected her to have a really nice theme.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Loona 312th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(2):Latest Junk" , posted Fri 23 Apr 19:10
quote:
Ohhhh... .... If this where to lack image, I would think that is about a Bruce Lee wanna be stomping on a cat.
forever!
If that version of the game is final, according to these reports of piracy and early releases, it's annoying to see a game with such promise show signs of this this early on...
Then again, I recall someone finding an Kyo infinite soon after KoF98 was released, and the game remained beloved and competitive for years after, we'll see...
Also, I'd rather se Juri get hit with that than most others - something about her design just doesn't click well with me, as if she's trying to be too many things at once, diluting the charm each individua factor might have.
"Beat the machine that works in your head!" - Guano Apes "Open Your Eyes"
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| karasu99 342th Post 
Bronze Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Thu 29 Apr 03:10 
I only had a few moments to try out the game yesterday, so I gave Juri and Hakan a try.
I really liked both-- Juri, just because I have warmed to the character design, and because her moveset is pretty fun, and Hakan because he's so totally channeling the World Warrior design aesthetic that it's almost like I can imagine it's 1991 again. Beating the game as Juri unlocked a whole stream of crap that was not especially memorable.
Also, the new backgrounds are pretty sweet, especially the Metro City skyscraper under construction with Andore/Hugo as part of the cheering crew. It did make me wish that Rolento had made the cut though.
And yes, I found the wall of selections daunting too-- much better than in SFIV, though, that is for sure.
PSN/XBox Live: robotchris
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| Gojira 2609th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Thu 29 Apr 03:44
I spent a lot of time on the game yesterday, and I like it, but then I never hated SF4 at all so I didn't really need convincing.
The new characters are interesting, but from earlier reports I thought they'd be stronger than they turned out. Right now I'd say Dudley is definitely good, while the rest of them are kind of a struggle, except maybe Cody. Cody's zonk knuckle has such a short charge time it comes out by mistake a lot when I do a lvl2 FADC or charge a rock throw.
Also, even though I don't believe the idea of reversal ultras is a bad thing, for some reason they decided to make them not work on armor-breaking moves. That is a huge mistake. The small window and obvious miss animation is bad enough without having to worry about which attack I'm reversing.
I find it odd that there seems to be no way to re-watch endings without going through arcade mode again. While this is pretty much how SF had always been prior to SF4, it's kind of weird to feel like I'm playing SF4 but not getting a SF4 feature. Is it just something you have to unlock?
quote:
The trailer of her OVA to be released in Japan's deluxe edition of the game shows that both women will fight at some point. I eagerly want to see the full OVA to better understand Juri's background and to see what happened prior to SSFIV.
Which reminds me, I wonder when the hell Capcom is going to tell us how to get this if we don't live in Japan.
shipoopi
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| mbisonhatclub
159th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re:make" , posted Thu 29 Apr 07:54
My PSN is hadoolket if anyone ever wants to play, I'm so good at this game that I'm sure I'll wreck everyone here no contest, even when I lose it just means I defeated you on an astral level that you cannot understand as a mere human
I'm available for SSF4, Blazblue, Tekken 6, Lost Planet 2 demo (coop), dat Final Fight, and my turn-ons are evil women and my turn-offs are vegetables and my favorite color is bleen
I'm still mildly lukewarm about the SF4 set of games but I'll still play SSF4--it's not a terrible game, but I still find myself yearning for more Blazblue instead, or even KOFXIII. Tekken is also more fun IMO too
FADC seems kind of annoying and for some, pretty useless, and the revenge system makes it really difficult for me to kick a hard opponent's ass but little does he know I've already won anyway because I am like Ghandi on a philosophical level
Showaaa
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| Pollyanna 2908th Post
PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Mon 3 May 06:39
quote:
Makoto is my playing for fun character (punching balls never gets old) even if I feel like she is a bit undermined in ssf4(at least with my skills with her).
I had a lovely 30 loss streak with Makoto the other day, but I keep on trucking! She has so many problems, though...
(rant)
Ultra 1 is good after karakusa (or EX karakusa!) and in a (karakusa) Hayate xx Super combo if you have the level, but otherwise, it comes out a half second too late, has garbage range and is too unreliable as an anti air.
Still, I feel better trying to squeeze in a karakusa and hitting with it than using Ultra 2, which is just wildly unpredictable. It's easy enough to place, especially against projectile spammers, but it frequently doesn't hit right. If it automatically gave you the full hit/animation every time you connected, it would be useful, but as is, there's always that chance that you'll end up hitting, then punching wildly at the air while your opponent hits YOU with an ultra. It's a shame, since I like its versatility more than Ultra 1.
She works fine on characters she can pressure, especially when you get them used to blocking low mid punches and hayates (so you can move in and either throw or chop), but fighting someone like Guile is a nightmare. Throw characters are terrible to deal with as well. I can often wait them out, and middle kick is a godsend against Zangief, but I will always lose against a good Guile player.
I was murdering people with EX karakusa for a while, but now I seem to have a difficult time using in situations where I don't get nailed with a guard-breaking attack.
I have a lot of fun with Makoto, but even if she ends up being high tier in high level play, she seems to be quite gimped when it comes to practical application. I've been doing very well with Cody and Juri at least.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| Pollyanna 2910th Post
PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(9):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Mon 3 May 17:45
quote:
One thing I found possibly useful in her ssf4 appearance is her focus attack (I'm talking without holding, just pressing MP+MK for a quick lvl-1 attack) has a good range and comes out quick. It's possible to do a karakusa/throw or block strings or EX Oroshi or if feeling risky Ultra1 after dashing. I like using it when I'm jumping in (or using MK axe kick immediately after jumping) and land a bit far (as an alternative to the crouch MP to Hayate). At least it's much better than her command moves for those ranges IMO. The range is a little tiny bit larger than crouch MP (almost the same as standing MK) but if you miss judge and wiff she rolls right into your opponent for a nice big combo.
Thanks! I tried this a bit tonight! I mostly used it as an end to a block string, however. If the opponent tended to keep blocking after the second low MP, then I would chop. If they tended to counter, I would FA. Still a little risky, but adds a new trick to the game.
Many many game-winning EX karakusa to Ultras tonight. Also found that her jumping HP has crazy priority (I always just used MK before) and that Forward HPHPHP hits people trying to jump away from close range. I'm sure this is common sense to someone sensible, but it was a pleasant discovery for me.
My question is, is there a way to instant air her tsurugi? I can down-to-upforward (or backward) a hundred times in a row in my sleep in KOF and BlazBlue, but it just doesn't work in this game. The best I can do is upforward to QCB as one solid motion. That makes it come out pretty fast, but it doesn't give me a low-to-the ground hop version that I so desire.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| Spoon 1943th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Tue 4 May 01:57
quote:
My question is, is there a way to instant air her tsurugi? I can down-to-upforward (or backward) a hundred times in a row in my sleep in KOF and BlazBlue, but it just doesn't work in this game. The best I can do is upforward to QCB as one solid motion. That makes it come out pretty fast, but it doesn't give me a low-to-the ground hop version that I so desire.
I've been having the same problem with all the new characters with air based attacks. I think Capcom did something to their jump timing that makes doing TK motions harder. My trick to pull them off consistently is to negative edge the attacks. Hold the attack button and when you do the motion ending with 7, 8 or 9, hold up a slightly longer than you would and then let go of the attack button. I've been getting TK versions of Juri's (air) 214+K more often that way, should work for Makoto I figure...
There are two elements to TK air moves in SF4 that aren't Akuma's air FB.
One is that the input buffering is rather tight.
The other is that most of the dive moves can't be done from a backwards jump (so the standard TK motion doesn't work on them at all). Anecdotal reports say that there is a minimum height for some of these moves, and that Juri's seems oddly more difficult.
As a result, characters like Cammy have to do a slightly odd motion for this: most people seem to have success doing it by 2149+K for Cammy, for example. In SF4, Cammy had no minimum height for hers, which led to odd/interesting combos involving multiple dives where she is barely an inch off the ground.
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| mbisonhatclub
161th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Tue 4 May 05:26
quote:
While I'm enjoying SSF4 there are a few aspects of the way I play that bother me. For now I'll just grumble about grapplers.
First, for the life of me I cannot play Hakan. Has anyone had any luck with this guy? If I can stay oiled up I can surprise people with the range on his hits but most of the time I die pathetically to jump-ins, fireballs and anything else that can keep picking at me from a distance. I should start uploading videos of my losses because some of them are awe-inspiring.
Second, is there any use whatsoever for Zangief's second Ultra? It feels so conditional and awkward that I wonder if it's more trouble than it's worth.
Third, I've found that while T.Hawk may not be a good character he is a strong one. Because of this I can get some solid wins with him. I'm actually playing T.Hawk- what have I become?
A casino man
My big problem with SF is the fact that it takes a lot of muscle memory not to figure out what you need to do, but to actually execute what you need to do. Combos have become an inherent nature of fighting games so it's only natural that you'll get to hit extra times after one hit, but with SF, you're a pro not because you know what to do with the combos and setups, but because you "get the timing right" with one-frame links/cancels and be really precise not with your technique but with the input because there is no input buffering outside of two-in-ones, and this never really enforced non-mashing because at the arcades I constantly saw people mashing things even harder just to make sure their attacks came out, and it was still 50-50. I hear excuses like "MY THING DIDN'T COME OUT" as to why they lost and when I know someone could have beat me but only simply dropped a combo and I just took advantage of the hole in their fuck-up, the victory seems kind of empty
When playing something like Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Melty Blood or something else, this isn't really a big issue, when I execute something, more often than not it gets executed, but if what I performed was a bad idea in the first place, it's going to be punishable and that's a strategic fault, not an error of execution fault
In spite of such, there's a lot of characters who have to be worked even harder since they don't have the ease of Ryu, Ken, or Sagat with zoning or getting their attacks to hit and you might have to give up aiming for things that require more precision on execution, but forsaking the harder to execute stuff, at the end of the match you are only left with thinking that you could have scored the victory only if execution wasn't a problem
Makoto for instance has a lot of decent things despite being nerfed when it comes to the SSF4 engine, but it takes a lot of management of the hands to make sure it comes out--a lot of FADC tricks and karakusa setups and fukiage followups mainly, and she can still be easily stuffed because she can be outzoned to keep her from getting a chance to put those techniques into play simply because the timing is very critical with her as opposed to Ken or Sagat
Speaking of execution, I hate shortcuts and wish I could turn them off
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| Pollyanna 2912th Post
PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Tue 4 May 09:09:
EDIT: Thank you for the advice on instant air attacks. It's not clicking with me at all, but I'll keep working at it.
quote:
First, for the life of me I cannot play Hakan. Has anyone had any luck with this guy?
His slide goes under projectiles quite nicely and guarantees you an oiling afterward. He's actually quite strong in the air. I think it's his HP that's good? Maybe MP? (only had it done AGAINST me). Also, if people try to jump to avoid getting thrown on wakeup, his 360 with kick will pull them out of the air.
quote:
When playing something like Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Melty Blood or something else, this isn't really a big issue, when I execute something, more often than not it gets executed, but if what I performed was a bad idea in the first place, it's going to be punishable and that's a strategic fault, not an error of execution fault
In spite of such, there's a lot of characters who have to be worked even harder since they don't have the ease of Ryu, Ken, or Sagat with zoning or getting their attacks to hit and you might have to give up aiming for things that require more precision on execution, but forsaking the harder to execute stuff, at the end of the match you are only left with thinking that you could have scored the victory only if execution wasn't a problem
I just quoted this part, but I pretty much agree with everything you said. This just seems like a step backwards to me...lengthening the already huge gap between beginners and people who devote their life to the pursuit of fighting games. 2D fighters are already elitist enough, with a high enough wall to cross before you can get in. Pros say "it's easy, just spend two hours in training mode every day" or something absurd like that. If you don't think that's fun, then you just don't WANT it enough, because heaven forbid the plebeians enter the world of fighting game Gods.
I've been playing fighting games since Karate Champ. I've never been "good" at even one, but I should hope that I can do anything within reason without feeling like I'm pulling teeth. I don't think BlazBlue is terribly beginner friendly because it has sick sick horrible combos that start from JABS and can be repeated if someone guesses wrong on wakeup. BUUUUT, there's nothing inherently cruel about learning those combos, so I think there's an element of fun in playing around with a forgiving system. Two hours in training mode in BB can feel like an exercise in creativity, not ramming your head into a wall trying to link MP into MP.
I do appreciate the slower-paced fakeout game in SF4, though. I feel like I have to think harder during the fights...come up with a "mental profile" of my opponent and try to prey on their weaknesses. I appreciate the wide array of useful normal attacks and situational strategies as well. For me, it's a great game filled with a lot of irritations.
But more than anything, I just love KOF...hahah.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
[this message was edited by Pollyanna on Tue 4 May 09:11] |
| Spoon 1945th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(5):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Tue 4 May 10:50
I still don't own a copy of SSF4 today, but from what a played of it, Makoto's axe kick can be done quite low to the ground with a 963214+K motion. I have a sort of odd way of doing it even in 3S, which is to hold 9 for a brief moment and then quickly sweeping the rest of the motion, rather than doing it all in one smooth, evenly-timed motion.
quote:
I just quoted this part, but I pretty much agree with everything you said. This just seems like a step backwards to me...lengthening the already huge gap between beg
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
I think having links is not a bad thing, because having moves that allow for links makes for a wider variety of interesting combos (usually). However, I definitely don't like some of the things they've done for links, especially the chained jabs/shorts losing cancellability. They don't have to look any farther than their own frame data to know that those moves can be linked, and that doing so will result in combos... so why make that part so much more difficult? Maybe they wanted players to drop combos more or something. 3S is one of my favourite games, but most characters have very limited comboing ability that is accessible to casual players. Being able to combo things because "they look like/feel like they should combo" through links is a good feeling.
But having really easy combos that do enough damage for players to get by at a lower level of play is important. Not everybody has time to practice combos, and not everybody has the inclination to. Guilty Gear is full of mashable combos and easy blockstrings that might not be great, but are a heckuva lot better than just single hits. However, the real stuff, the stuff that you need at a competitive level, far outstrips what can be achieved through randomly doing gatlings while twirling the stick. Combos are already a big enough part of the game that a player without comboing ability is severely handicapped against a player with comboing ability; trying to keep things "balanced" at lower levels of play by having few chain combos and a reliance on 2-in-1s seems kind of weak.
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| Ishmael 3783th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Tue 4 May 22:32
quote:
His slide goes under projectiles quite nicely and guarantees you an oiling afterward. He's actually quite strong in the air. I think it's his HP that's good? Maybe MP? (only had it done AGAINST me). Also, if people try to jump to avoid getting thrown on wakeup, his 360 with kick will pull them out of the air.
I finally realized my primary problem with Hakan is that I've been thinking about him as a grappler. But with his oil management issues and all the weird stuff he can do depending on how greasy he is Hakan is more in line with a technical character like Gen. As soon as I start approaching him with that mind-set I might do better. I will also probably do better if I learn to stop sucking horribly every time I play him but that will hopefully come with practice.
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But having really easy combos that do enough damage for players to get by at a lower level of play is important. Not everybody has time to practice combos, and not everybody has the inclination to. Guilty Gear is full of mashable combos and easy blockstrings that might not be great, but are a heckuva lot better than just single hits. However, the real stuff, the stuff that you need at a competitive level, far outstrips what can be achieved through randomly doing gatlings while twirling the stick. Combos are already a big enough part of the game that a player without comboing ability is severely handicapped against a player with comboing ability; trying to keep things "balanced" at lower levels of play by having few chain combos and a reliance on 2-in-1s seems kind of weak.
But isn't that just combo inflation? A player may get to hit more buttons in GG but there's still that split in levels between what a new player and a player who treats the game like it's their religion can do.
For that matter, what fighting game doesn't feature similar tiers of playability? As far as I can tell the gradient in SF4 only seems so much steeper is because it stripped away the combos, helper characters and other pieces of extraneous flash that other fighting games use to give the illusion of accessibility.
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| Iggy 9128th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Wed 5 May 00:22
quote:
Pros say "it's easy, just spend two hours in training mode every day" or something absurd like that. If you don't think that's fun, then you just don't WANT it enough, because heaven forbid the plebeians enter the world of fighting game Gods.
I read some serious Viper player bitching on how one of her advance technique or cancel or whatever have been done easier to perform, and that has "ruined the character". True story.
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Third, I've found that while T.Hawk may not be a good character he is a strong one. Because of this I can get some solid wins with him. I'm actually playing T.Hawk- what have I become?
Someone who enjoys the ancient Mexican art of Plane Mimicking. I miss the day of playing with friends in the same room, because whenever someone won with T.Hawk, we would always try to imitate his awesome stance and see who would manage to remain serious the longest. Also, he's pretty good in SSF4, so these winning moments should become even more plentiful.
Also, Hakan is easily understood if you put him that way: he is one of the best characters of the game when oiled, and the worst character of the game without. So the key is to learn how to use him effectively when oiled, and how to remain oiled as long as possible. The very rare fights I managed to win were a succession of opponent down => weak oiling up => opponent down and so on. if you have an opportunity to oil up, it's always wise to use it, even if you're already oiled up. It can even be good to trade a hit for it (if the hit doesn't start a combo that can end up in an ultra, of course). The only oils you should use are the weak one and the EX (which has projectile invincibility). If you don't have a gauge when someone shoots something at you, either slide or evade on the ground (down + 3 punches, I think?).
Also, Hakan is very good at applying pressure, and weak when the tables turn. Which means you should never let an opponent breathe. Which is not possible, because you should stop as often as possible to oil up. That's the inner contradiction of the character that makes him so awesome to play as, for now.
Higher-level techniques involve moving around while you focus attack (oiled up) and cancelling dashes into normal attacks to cover even more range, but I'm still at the very early stages of the learning curve, so that will have to wait. And I may very well remain there for a long, long time.
All in all, I think Hakan and T Hawk make a great selection of main characters, at least for the beginning. Hakan requires a lot of practice, while Hawk is a no brainer so he's great when you need to rest for a few matches.
I thought I could add Ibuki as a 3rd pal to these two, but she's been too Narutarded for me, unfortunately.
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| Spoon 1946th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(7):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Wed 5 May 04:06
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I can tell the gradient in SF4 only seems so much steeper is because it stripped away the combos, helper characters and other pieces of extraneous flash that other fighting games use to give the illusion of accessibility.
That illusion is important!
I think the worst thing for my friends who just play casually is the feeling that they can't do anything. There should always be a divide between those who are well-versed and those who are not, but give them something so that they can feel good about themselves and feel some bit of hope.
It's somewhat difficult to get a good metric on it, but let's put it this way: how many mistakes do you have to force out of your opponent in order to win? In extreme cases like HnK, when players can do combos, it's about 1 if your character's name is Rei or Raoh. In SF4, if a player can't combo it's probably upwards of 10. When that number is extremely disparate between the lower level player and the higher level player in absolute terms (e.g. 2-1 might be a 100% difference for the lesser player, but it's really only one more opportunity), that's when I can see the game becoming extremely not fun for the lower level player. Keeping those numbers at ranges that are sufficiently close/work and "seem fun" matter; SF32I at maximum damage settings means most supers are instant kills and HP/HKs do about 50% of a lifebar... that'll keep things close, but I'm not sure how great of an idea it is. Good for laughs, or when you want to play SamSho but not SamSho, though.
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| Pollyanna 2913th Post
PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Wed 5 May 04:22
quote:
But isn't that just combo inflation? A player may get to hit more buttons in GG but there's still that split in levels between what a new player and a player who treats the game like it's their religion can do.
In my case at least, I was not arguing that there is not a gap between beginners and experts in BB (or that the gap is small). A rookie will get immediately hammered into a corner, sit through an obnoxiously long combo, get slammed by a pressure string, mess up, sit through another obnoxiously long combo...lose. But there is nothing inherently difficult about those combos, other than their length. When you press a button, or a series of buttons, you (ideally) get what you want.
I'm arguing that SFIV creates a needless and artificial gap that hinders enjoyment of the game. There is a gap in a combo-based game because you have to learn combos. Why is there a gap in SFIV? The game has enough to offer to begin with and enough room for players to grow.
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For that matter, what fighting game doesn't feature similar tiers of playability? As far as I can tell the gradient in SF4 only seems so much steeper is because it stripped away the combos, helper characters and other pieces of extraneous flash that other fighting games use to give the illusion of accessibility.
Sounds like someone needs to go back to Karate Champ!
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I read some serious Viper player bitching on how one of her advance technique or cancel or whatever have been done easier to perform, and that has "ruined the character". True story.
This makes me sick.
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Someone who enjoys the ancient Mexican art of Plane Mimicking. I miss the day of playing with friends in the same room, because whenever someone won with T.Hawk, we would always try to imitate his awesome stance and see who would manage to remain serious the longest.
But this makes me happy. My friends and I have had T.Hawk showdowns ourselves. Great way to get poked in the eye (or boob?).
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BTW, does Hakan's slide really go under fireballs? Every time I've tried, his legs are usually sticking up so he eats the projectile anyway. Is it just timing?
I am not a Hakan expert, but I have definitely done this with HP slide. I can't speak for the timing and it may vary from projectile to projectile (again, I don't use Hakan), but it can be done.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| Pollyanna 2914th Post
PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(9):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Wed 5 May 14:38
Quick questions...
Psycho Punisher is a top-down, right? Can it hit in the air? I've had the best luck doing jumping attacks on it, but I have a feeling there's going to come a time when Vega players get creative enough to prevent me from doing that. Is there a better way to deal with it?
Also, what is the best thing to do against a Cammy player that does instant air cannon strikes into low LK, LP into instant air cannon strikes into low LK, LP into...
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I really disagree with this. It usually takes only a few weeks for the best and most effective combos to get discovered, and once that happens matches at all but the lowest skill levels start to become extremely repetitive. By adding a skill requirement so hefty that even pros mess up their combos semi-regularly, SF4 decreases repetition, makes matches more interesting by increasing both risk and reward for combos, and generally encourages beginners to learn to play in their own way (by making it more difficult to imitate other players).
I agree with your line of logic, but not necessarily your conclusion. That is to say that I don't think that matches would become repetitive without the addition of prohibitively high-level techniques. However, I have spent my entire life on the "lowest skill level", so maybe your assertion applies to me as well and I just don't know any better.
That is to say, since I will continue to play lowest-level matches because I am either incapable or unwilling to learn advanced tactics, I will continue to operate under a mistaken sense of freedom and variety, while high level players enjoy an actual sense of freedom and variety thanks to prohibitively difficult techniques. Only when I am matched against a high-level player and I want to smash my console in two will the illusion be shattered.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| mbisonhatclub
164th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(9):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Thu 6 May 02:03:
quote:
I really disagree with this. It usually takes only a few weeks for the best and most effective combos to get discovered, and once that happens matches at all but the lowest skill levels start to become extremely repetitive. By adding a skill requirement so hefty that even pros mess up their combos semi-regularly, SF4 decreases repetition, makes matches more interesting by increasing both risk and reward for combos, and generally encourages beginners to learn to play in their own way (by making it more difficult to imitate other players).
~Pros~ drop combos (among other strategies) in many games unless they're extremely Japanese/Korean (read: tightest supeliolest execution/timing ever); basically, anyone who has extreme muscle memory and rhythmic control, except for when it comes to online as online is...well, you should understand online play by now, it can't be taken seriously
This is like saying mind games are exclusive to Street Fighter (I've seriously had people tell me this) as if ~mind games~ weren't an intrinsic part in many competitive games like this
And while you say there is "playing your own way" as each person develops his confidence in his execution and his timing ability that proverbial skill gap is going to close and the similarities in playstyles will be more apparent IN ANY FIGHTING GAME. EVEN SHAQ FU. OR TIME SLAUGHTER. DREG DREG.
This is due in part to the mechanical limitations of each game that limit (and provide) opportunities for damaging your opponent that are, no matter how creative you think they might be, are alltogether still static
On the other hand, people still develop their own playstyles in other fighting games as well, but a lot of people will also aim for the most damaging or effective thing they can think of when it comes to tourney play, and from watching only tourney videos and not playing games yourself would you not realize this is the difference between the casual market and tourney market
Though people may consider games like Melty Blood, Arcana Heart, Blazblue and Guilty Gear "combo-an gaems," they're still just as every bit involving other forms of strategy as the next fighting game, but in a different context. Controls are a little more forgiving on timing, but that doesn't mean timing doesn't at all play a part in them, and while people will think of combo games as mashing games just the same, it doesn't mean you can get away with mashing all the time, just like in SF. Except in SF, that half-assed Ken is still going to mash out his ultra in case there's a hole in your combo, but you screw up something in Blazblue, that INFARNO DIVADAH will hit you just the same, so you can't really come out and say SF enforces and rewards non-mashing
I'm not trying to hate on SSF4, in fact I enjoy it like I do the other fighting games (but especially Time Slaughter)
join the m.bison hat club today
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[this message was edited by mbisonhatclub on Thu 6 May 02:05] |
| Pollyanna 2916th Post
PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Thu 6 May 08:21
quote:
Oddly enough I spent last night trying to Psycho Punish people. I don't think PP activates until it hits the ground so simply jumping into the air seems to be the best way to deal with the move.
Thanks. I think it's used best to counter projectiles, but most Vega players seem to just throw it out randomly. That says to me "nobody knows what this move does." Better players use it as a crossup (you can alter the distance, if you didn't know). That's the next step of playing on someone's ignorance, I suppose.
That reminds me of how practically every Ibuki player starts out the match with the sliding throw. IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK! Please keep trying, though. On the other side of the spectrum, I still have NO CLUE what El Fuerte is EVER doing.
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Or...just keep half-assing/mashing the combos you want until you get used to them (the same way complete beginners would mash d,f+LP repeatedly to get hadoukens out, before actually learning how to do the command properly)
Just to be clear, I'm terrible at links, but I don't really let it bother me and just keep playing.
I think it bugs me because there's this voice in the back of my head reminding me that Capcom touted SFIV as "easier to get into' than other fighters...and it's the only fighter I've played where I've though "I can't do that, and I will never be able to do that" so often.
But I still love the game, and I'm still chugging away at it! And you're right...it wouldn't hurt to try a link here and there. It might click magically someday.
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I'm going to guess backdash the cannon strike (i.e. immediately after the LP). The first sequence or two of it might leave them too close for you to safely backdash, though.
Thank you. Sounds risky, though. Hopefully I won't run into any more high-level Cammys...hahah.
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Though people may consider games like Melty Blood, Arcana Heart, Blazblue and Guilty Gear "combo-an gaems," they're still just as every bit involving other forms of strategy as the next fighting game, but in a different context.
I can see where combos can be a huge turnoff, though. Some of Litchi's stuff (especially in CS) is just beyond ridiculous. It's annoying to sit through! Bang, too (because he's so slow)! Doing 40% off a low jab is bad enough, but slipping up on such a minor thing, then having to sit through that crap, only to mess up on wakeup and sit through that crap again...it's not fun. So it makes sense to me that some people will complain about "combo based" games when a round will consist of 10 seconds of footsies, and the rest, knocking a punching bag around.
I use Hazama in CS, and if you know anything about Hazama, you know he has like...one main combo. After the 4th iteration of that combo in one match, I'm just tired. If I hit a win streak, then it doesn't take long before I don't care if I win or lose anymore. I started learning some of Litchi's meatier combos, but I just thought "I don't want to make people sit through this." I like winning, but I don't like inflicting pain.
So yeah, I'd rather play "mid level" where the combos are flashy, but not gratuitous.
Although I do agree that mind games aren't exclusive to SF...and that combos, however ludicrous, do not indicate a lack of depth.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| KTallguy 1214th Post
PSN: Hunter-KT
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Thu 6 May 10:07
quote:
That reminds me of how practically every Ibuki player starts out the match with the sliding throw. IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK! Please keep trying, though. On the other side of the spectrum, I still have NO CLUE what El Fuerte is EVER doing.
Haha, but it does work a lot on people right now.
The thing that depresses me the most is that even at point blank, you can neutral jump out of Ibuki's U1. I was playing a guy that knew this, and suddenly all my cool mind games went out the window. That Ultra start up animation gives people a lot of time to react.
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Some of Litchi's stuff (especially in CS) is just beyond ridiculous. It's annoying to sit through! Bang, too (because he's so slow)! Doing 40% off a low jab is bad enough, but slipping up on such a minor thing, then having to sit through that crap, only to mess up on wakeup and sit through that crap again...it's not fun. So it makes sense to me that some people will complain about "combo based" games when a round will consist of 10 seconds of footsies, and the rest, knocking a punching bag around.
You've hit the nail on the head for me. This is why I can't really enjoy Melty Blood or Blazblue. The combos take too long, and a simple crouching jab can start a very long combo. Even Tekken kind of annoys me in this way. In Guilty Gear I primarily used Faust, because this wasn't the case for him (or maybe I just sucked with him too much to know).
I'm impressed with people's ability to bang out those combos, and I don't think they aren't skilled. But even though links are incredibly annoying to do in SF, once you get the weird laggy timing they are OK to perform, and at least they don't take forever to play out.
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| Spoon 1948th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(3):Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Thu 6 May 12:29
While this is probably beyond what they wanted to aim for with the focus on accessibility in SF4, it's always nice to turn to see what other games decide about things like combos.
My biggest complaint about the whole tight links vs. potential for mash out DP is that it's ultimately a failure-based mechanic: you don't get the counter-hit DP because of some clever thinking or action on your part. Combo breakers like Bursts aside, combos also have the negative effect of taking control away from one player. And as Polly so despises, in some games this can go on for a long time. Hey, you could be playing AH1, where NON-fatal combos could go on for literally 30s or more. I'm definitely against long BnB combos: a huge combo should be something special, rather than a staple action.
So French Bread, in their infinite wisdom in Gleam of Force, decided to add many, many systems in the hopes of making long BnB combos a risk: not a risk because you might screw it up, but because your opponent can actively do something about it. There are four major actions that can be performed while being hit:
1.) Combo breaker (has two different meter requirements, affects end-of-round judgement in event that round ends without a KO)
2.) Directional influence (player can influence how much they are pushed back with each hit)
3.) Damage reduction (mash buttons to reduce damage of each hit)
4.) Hitstun reduction (press different buttons to reduce hitstun of each hit, but not damage)
So one of the ideals of that system is that a player being subjected to some long, repetitive combo can actually make themselves not get pushed so far away with each hit (which would normally favour the guy doing the combo) while reducing hitstun in an attempt to see their character fall out of the combo and be put into excellent position to counter attack, or simply stop getting hit. Alternatively, they can decide not to risk that and just hit buttons for a reliable damage reduction. If they meet the requirements, they can also try to just do a combo breaker.
Among those requirements for the combo breaker, though, is an "Endurance" gauge. It is and is not a dizzy gauge. Even at 0%, it doesn't mean the end for the player; instead, only particular actions like attacks from behind, counter hits, etc. can cause it to go into a negative state (Heartbreak), wherein the player loses the ability to do a number of actions (notably, combo breaker) and suffers longer hitstun from all attacks.
Unfortunately, balancing all this proved to be a daunting task, and for quite some time, there were plenty of combos discovered that not only overcame the active hitstun reduction mechanic, but could inflict Heartbreak during the course of the combo. I haven't played the latest version of the game, but I still always think about it whenever I think about how a fighting game can approach the fundamental issue of combos.
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"Re(1):New match videos (+ Shadaloo Dolls???)" , posted Sun 21 Mar 12:17
"Re(3):New match videos (+ Shadaloo Dolls???)" , posted Sun 21 Mar 21:35
who follow the path of a warrior
"Re(3):Re(10):Latest Junk" , posted Thu 29 Apr 12:59
so little time...
