So Capcom is on the sale. (?) - http://www.mmcafe.com/ Forums


Original message (6846 Views )

kofoguz
1095th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Premium Member




"So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Tue 17 Jun 23:24post reply

Discuss.






Replies:

badoor
378th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: BadoorSNK(forPSVITA:BadoorUSA)
XBL: BadoorSNK(ForWiiU/Steam:BadoorSNK)
Wii: 3DS:4253-3532-0341

Silver Customer


"Re(1):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 01:29post reply

Seems like acquisitions are happening so very often now, with FROM Software to Kadokawa, Atlus to Sega, and Grasshopper to GungHo. Though in all these cases, it wasn't necessarily due to one side having significant money problems (FROM Software are probably THE hottest developer right now, Atlus were profitable but had to disconnect from INDEX who were losing money and were in shady business, and GungHo got so much Puzzle & Dragon money and wanted to get more development power). In other words, no one-side was "saving" the other by this acquisition. And Capcom is in trouble, with all their losses.

And also, in nearly all these cases, everyone wants Nintendo to buy whatever company that's on sale, which I kind of don't understand in this particular case. Capcom isn't a small development house that makes a game or two every year. They're a big company with several hundreds of people in several studios around the world. But more importantly, they have a huge 30+ year library of games and properties. And the last thing Nintendo needs is more properties to manage. Nintendo bought MonolithSoft or Retro Studios because they needed man power to make games (some based on Nintendo IPs), not own more IPs that they have to deal with. And Nintendo needs more development power (Smash is being co-developed by Namco. And they have several 2nd party contract work with Platinum Games or Good Feel or Arzest or indieszero or Tecmo-Koei with Hyrule Warriors).

Aside from Monster Hunter on 3DS (which Nintendo already has the exclusivity for), none of Capcom's other big IPs (like Street Fighter or Resident Evil or Dead Rising) work well on Nintendo. Maybe Nintendo could figure out a good plan for a new great Mega Man game by either doing it internally or pairing it with a good 2nd party developer, but Mega Man alone is not worth it.

Anyhow, I don't think any first party would buy them. And I don't know if any Japanese company is willing or capable to buy them. And certainly no western Publisher will buy them. So in short, I just don't know.





http://100daysofmegashock.wordpress.com/
http://badoorsnk.wordpress.com/

nobinobita
1308th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(2):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 01:49post reply

quote:
Seems like acquisitions are happening so very often now, with FROM Software to Kadokawa, Atlus to Sega, and Grasshopper to GungHo. Though in all these cases, it wasn't necessarily due to one side having significant money problems (FROM Software are probably THE hottest developer right now, Atlus were profitable but had to disconnect from INDEX who were losing money and were in shady business, and GungHo got so much Puzzle & Dragon money and wanted to get more development power). In other words, no one-side was "saving" the other by this acquisition. And Capcom is in trouble, with all their losses.

And also, in nearly all these cases, everyone wants Nintendo to buy whatever company that's on sale, which I kind of don't understand in this particular case. Capcom isn't a small development house that makes a game or two every year. They're a big company with several hundreds of people in several studios around the world. But more importantly, they have a huge 30+ year library of games and properties. And the last thing Nintendo needs is more properties to manage. Nintendo bought MonolithSoft or Retro Studios because they needed man power to make games (some based on Nintendo IPs), not own more IPs that they have to deal with. And Nintendo needs more development power (Smash is being co-developed by Namco. And they have several 2nd party contract work with Platinum Games or Good Feel or Arzest or indieszero or Tecmo-Koei with Hyrule Warriors).

Aside from Monster Hunter on 3DS (

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


It would be amazing if Nintendo bought them and just let them continue acting autonomously. But that will never ever happen for millions of reasons, not least is that Capcom's AAA titles need to be multiplatform to recoup their costs (other than Monster Hunter). This is just a crazy pipe dream (hehehe)

Realistically I think a young Chinese company like Tencent would benefit the most from acquiring Capcom. It could actually be a good fit. Capcom has incredible brand recognition throughout China through a magical combination of inherent appeal of their games and characters and rampant piracy allowing for great distribution. It would be nice if they had an official presence in China and actually made some money from all that.

Tencent's market valuation is over $150 billion at the moment so they definitely have more money to spare than other contenders. Also there's a big anti-corruption push currently going on in China, so lots of companies are moving their money out of the country. This would also coincide nicely with China's lift on its ban on consoles.

On top of all this, I think Tencent would be a good fit cos Capcom wouldn't have to actually change anything to suit Chinese tastes. Monster Hunter is already monstrously popular there, and everyone knows what Street Fighter is. Yeah we'll see more mobile/social games from them if this happens, but that's already happening in Japan.






www.art-eater.com

Zepy
1642th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member





"Re(1):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 05:04post reply

quote:
Discuss.


It all makes sense now, Sony sold their shares in Squareenix last month so they can buy the majority in Capcom now and finally get Monster Hunter and revive the Vita!



Actually, is Capcom still worth acquiring? My impression of Capcom for the last two years is that all they made is Monster Hunter and then they tried really hard at smartphone games. They didn't show anything significant at E3 this year either.

Dragon's Dogma and RE6 has some nice sales numbers but a large portion of those sales were done at less than half the original price. Did they manage to cover the development costs?

Monster Hunter 4 on the 3DS was really nice at the start but Capcom pushed it too hard and over flooded Japan with the title and starting earlier this year many places were trying to sell it at 70% off but nobody buys it anymore. This doesn't look good for the next installment in the series.





Pollyanna
3655th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(2):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 06:47post reply

I remember Inafune complaining that Capcom had way too many in-house employees, then I heard that they were painfully low on capital needed to make more big-budget games, thennnn I heard they built an additional office and hired a bunch more people?

I might be misinformed on this, but I feel like almost any company except Capcom might be a better Capcom than Capcom.
quote:
Realistically I think a young Chinese company like Tencent would benefit the most from acquiring Capcom.

This is more sensible than any number of the wacko theories people are throwing around. It would be pretty amusing if they actually purchased Capcom and you were the only person who thought of them.
quote:
Monster Hunter 4 on the 3DS was really nice at the start but Capcom pushed it too hard and over flooded Japan with the title and starting earlier this year many places were trying to sell it at 70% off but nobody buys it anymore. This doesn't look good for the next installment in the series.

It depends on their expectations, but considering that the budget for 4 Ultimate can't be especially big due to the huge amount of recycled material, it should be a huge financial success, even if it doesn't move astronomical numbers. But yeah, it won't be another P3rd.

I sure am sick of them porting the PC version to different systems, though. I would rather have no MH on Vita than that game. I wonder if other Vita consumers will feel the same.





I am undressed from 80’s style and recreated with modern sexy and beautiful style that amaze you and feel never been experienced world before.

kofoguz
1096th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Premium Member




"Re(2):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 06:49post reply

It is worth it if this means the Darkstalkers are finally not dead, but for the company that buys capcom; I'm not so sure. Also kudos for capcom for their last joke on Dead Rising DLC title.
Wish Platinum or Nintendo buying them would be possible/reality cause I really wonder what would some of the great IP's look like with great care.





Digitalboy
772th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: n/a
XBL: SupplyPigeon8(automatednamecreatedbyXBL)
Wii: n/a

Red Carpet Regular Member+



"Re(3):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 07:13post reply


CRAP-com.


quote:
It is worth it if this means the Darkstalkers are finally not dead, but for the company that buys capcom; I'm not so sure. Also kudos for capcom for their last joke on Dead Rising DLC title.
Wish Platinum or Nintendo buying them would be possible/reality cause I really wonder what would some of the great IP's look like with great care.







I don't know how to live
But I've got alot of toys...

HokutoAndy
70th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Occasional Customer

"Re(3):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 07:26post reply

quote:

This is more sensible than any number of the wacko theories people are throwing around. It would be pretty amusing if they actually purchased Capcom and you were the only person who thought of them.



After Tencent announced their partnership with Capcom on the Monster Hunter MMO exclusively for China (it's not Frontier, it uses the Crysis engine) there was a lot of rumors in China of a straight up acquisition.

Tencent already has a minority share in Epic (Gears of War) and basically own Riot (League of Legends).

Pretty much everyone into games in China grew up with Capcom fighting games and brawlers (all pirated of course). Arcades still have their old 3 Kingdoms brawler and various Street Fighter games.

...and Akiman can be lured to China with the promise of muscular thigh-d Chinese gymnast ladies.





Iggy
9770th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(2):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 07:29post reply

quote:
Actually, is Capcom still worth acquiring?

That's the biggest question, in the end, the answer depends on who you are.
It's not the 90s, it's not the early 2000, and it's impressive how little time it took for the company to nosedive. The talent is still here, that's for sure, but any buyer who would not be buying for the IP alone would have to dedicate itself to rebuilding the company, shaking the corporate structure, and getting rid of most of the top management while preserving the base.
In other words, that's as likely as Bayonetta 2 being released on PS2.

As for Nintendo buying them, even if that was a possibility at any point in the past (or even more during this specific fiscal year), the fact that Capcom has invested so much in Panta Rhei (an engine that specifically doesn't run on WiiU) is the nail in the coffin. It also locks out SQEX or Konami, who wasted enough money on their own engine already. Sony doesn't have the cash. Apple doesn't know what Capcom is. Microsoft or Amazon are possible but very unlikely.

Gungho or Tencent or Nexon are all possible. But even for them, Panta Rhei poses significant questions. What they would be doing with that once they get it?
In the end, maybe that engine is Capcom's best bet at staying independent: because it makes them so much less desirable in the short term, before they start making games using it that can finally turn a profit which in turn would allow them to buy their freedom.
Their strategy for the recent months, with heavy focus on high-end R&D parallel with cheap mobile shit, is a very high-stakes bet that can end up at any extremity of the spectrum, with nothing between "complete success" or "absolute failure". I'm really curious to know where it will fall.





karasu
1385th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: robotchris
XBL: robotchris
Wii: n/a

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(3):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 07:42post reply

I saw someone else float the idea of Bandai Namco buying them, to which my first reaction was "oh no", but upon reflection that became "um... whatever". It's not like I should really worry one way or the other I suppose, since Capcom's hardly even similar to our old friend from the 90's.

My only really worry is that they won't find a buyer and will subsequently go under. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't find a buyer, even if it's for a bargain basement price.






www.secret-arts.com

Mosquiton
2003th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(1):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 12:46post reply

quote:
Discuss.

I just hope that current management is sinking enough cash into developing a Dragon's Dogma sequel that anybody new coming in would hesitate to pull the plug.

Of course ideally new management would recognize the value of the series, which Capcom once proclaimed they would transform into "a pillar of earnings."

Anyway, that game really needs a sequel. I really need that game to have a sequel.





/ / /

kofoguz
1097th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Premium Member




"Re(4):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 18:02post reply

quote:

CRAP-com.



Well played, great memory.





Iggy
9771th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(2):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 18:58post reply

quote:
I just hope that current management is sinking enough cash into developing a Dragon's Dogma sequel that anybody new coming in would hesitate to pull the plug.

Close enough: they release in august (in Japan) a Dark Arisen special package with all sorts of DLC and a DVD with videos and stuff.
Either it's to prepare for a sequel, or they just want to scrap the last little bits of moneys this game can get before burying it.





HAYATO
1192th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Lord-Hayato
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Red Carpet Premium Member+




"Re(3):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Wed 18 Jun 20:38post reply

As sad as Capcom's loss of financial independence may seem, I just don't care anymore. Good Ol' 90's will never return. Truth be told, they never went out to begin with, and it may have something to do with the current state of things: die hard fans would rather play Capcom's former glories than acquiring the crap they intend to shovel up its userbase's throats nowadays.

I love that Tencent theory that Nobi pointed out before. It just makes so much sense for current Capcom to aim for a secure position in Asian markets right now, I just don't know how it hasn't happened yet... Despite that, my vote goes for Facebook, not only because I'd like to watch the world burn: I'd love to see some future Oculus Rift exclusives based on Capcom IPs. For instance, a Rockman FPS could be mildly interesting and may I be Damned if a Final Fight VR beat'em up wouldn't be glorious (Virtua Haggar would rock everyone's socks)!!





Freeter
4616th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Saleyoucan" , posted Thu 19 Jun 06:25post reply

Nintendo should just buy the Rockman IP and cash in on the fanbase. Easy money right there.





Spoon
2616th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(1):Saleyoucan" , posted Thu 19 Jun 07:41post reply

quote:
Nintendo should just buy the Rockman IP and cash in on the fanbase. Easy money right there.



I have never felt regret at a missed purchase as I did the day I found out that the Descent Freespace IP was sold by THQ for $7500.





HokutoAndy
71th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Occasional Customer

"What if Activision-Blizzard buys Capcom" , posted Thu 19 Jun 09:24post reply

Imagine Activision-Blizzard buying Capcom

You would get Guile and Charlie as Calladuty DLC.

Or Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter, and see what Chun Li, Cammy, and all your favorite SF stars look like rendered in 3D by Activision studios.





Maou
2659th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(1):What if Activision-Blizzard buys Capcom" , posted Thu 19 Jun 11:01post reply

quote:
Imagine Activision-Blizzard buying Capcom

Imagine...Inafune Kenji buying Capcom! That would be like getting your ship boarded by the same pirate band you'd set adrift in some lifeboat.

Or maybe we should buy Capcom. Everyone chip in!





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

GPA
73th Post


user profileedit/delete message

Occasional Customer

"Re(2):What if Activision-Blizzard buys Capcom" , posted Thu 19 Jun 11:56post reply

quote:
Imagine Activision-Blizzard buying Capcom
Imagine...Inafune Kenji buying Capcom! That would be like getting your ship boarded by the same pirate band you'd set adrift in some lifeboat.

Or maybe we should buy Capcom. Everyone chip in!

\


I'm down. Let's start a kickstarter!





Maese
749th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Regular Member+



"Re(2):What if Activision-Blizzard buys Capcom" , posted Thu 19 Jun 12:25post reply

quote:

Or maybe we should buy Capcom. Everyone chip in!



That's the most sensible idea I've heard in months. Count me in. We need to bring back Lt. Lynn Kurosawa, even if we have to buy the company for it!





red falcon
6210th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Rugalbgood
XBL: RugalBGood
Wii: Doesitmatter?

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(1):What if Activision-Blizzard buys Capcom" , posted Thu 19 Jun 15:25post reply

quote:

Or Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter, and see what Chun Li, Cammy, and all your favorite SF stars look like rendered in 3D by Activision studios.


I just threw up a little.





Loona
743th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: IkariLoona
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Red Carpet Regular Member+



"Re(1):What if Activision-Blizzard buys Capcom" , posted Thu 19 Jun 18:49post reply

quote:
Imagine Activision-Blizzard buying Capcom

You would get Guile and Charlie as Calladuty DLC.

Or Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter, and see what Chun Li, Cammy, and all your favorite SF stars look like rendered in 3D by Activision studios.



Ed Boon probably wants this so bad I wouldn't be surprised - he keeps pushing the idea every once in a while, but I never heard a peep from him about how to actually get those very different play styles to work together. Now he might be able to persuade his bosses to throw money at the issue, not just hope Capcom will pay attention to him...


I'd be OK with Namco-Bandai/MonolithSoft/Banpresto taking a more permanent crack at Capcom IPs - the NxC and PXZ efforts in the very least showed a lot of love and respect for them, even if those got shoehorned into hybrid gameplay that didn't serve any single genre all that well.

Dimps getting Street Fighter would be fitting - Takashi Nishiyama getting his babies back.





"Beat the machine that works in your head!" - Guano Apes "Open Your Eyes"

Digitalboy
773th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: n/a
XBL: SupplyPigeon8(automatednamecreatedbyXBL)
Wii: n/a

Red Carpet Regular Member+



"Re(3):What if Activision-Blizzard buys Capcom" , posted Thu 19 Jun 23:08post reply




I support this notion!

And! Buy Capcom and then have the developers of the Guilty Gear Xrd to remix Ultra Street Fighter IV into what Xrd is.

Toh-ho-ho!


Everyone is a WEEEIN-NAH!

Kofoguz: Memories...[/sigh]


quote:
Imagine...Inafune Kenji buying Capcom! That would be like getting your ship boarded by the same pirate band you'd set adrift in some lifeboat.

Or maybe we should buy Capcom. Everyone chip in!
\


I'm down. Let's start a kickstarter!







I don't know how to live
But I've got alot of toys...

chazumaru
1253th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(3):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Thu 19 Jun 23:35post reply

quote:
This is more sensible than any number of the wacko theories people are throwing around. It would be pretty amusing if they actually purchased Capcom and you were the only person who thought of them. [=Tencent]


Once you adblock away the Nintendoshouldbuy crazies like any sensible person would do, Tencent and Nexon are by far the most frequently cited potential buyers following this news. Especially Tencent as they already share a business relationship with Capcom, as HokutoAndy mentioned.

That being said, the news is not "Capcom is on sale". The news is that Capcom's shares are not protected. This means two things:
1. Shareholders don't see Capcom being able to grow on their own. Which is a fair assessment. Capcom is actually a rather small company. With the direction they are taking (online and mobile service), it's natural to hope they partner with a stronger ally.
2. The next move does not have to be an immediate buyout. e.g. it can start with a 20% share buyout which would give the investing company leverage without forcing a full integration. There might even be several companies fighting for control.

quote:
My only really worry is that they won't find a buyer and will subsequently go under.

Capcom is OK. This is not a Sega situation. Hell, this is not even a Sony situation. Most shareholders just don't see how the company can grow from its current position and fear it can only go downhill from now on. Those shareholders are only concerned by the value of their shares, which are typically exchanged at a premium in case of a buyout. Capcom themselves are actively trying not to be purchased by anyone (which was the entire point behind their buyout protection).

quote:
Actually, is Capcom still worth acquiring?

Certainly not for everyone. But for a company with relatively little headcount in development, big cashflow and a lack of strong IPs, Capcom is a good investment.

quote:
Gungho or Tencent or Nexon are all possible. But even for them, Panta Rhei poses significant questions. What they would be doing with that once they get it?

If Panta Rhei is as flexible as MT Framework, which (I would hope) should be the *entire point* of Panta Rhei, it could become a great engine for next gen smartphones and cross-platform development. Don't forget that MT Framework has been used on 360/PS3/PC/3DS/iOS already, with great results. Very few engines are that versatile.

quote:
Or Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter

Mortal Kombat is the property of Warner Bros., not Activision-Blizzard.

quote:
It depends on their expectations, but considering that the budget for 4 Ultimate can't be especially big due to the huge amount of recycled material, it should be a huge financial success, even if it doesn't move astronomical numbers. But yeah, it won't be another P3rd.

This is an interesting topic! Zepy/Polly/anyone, how much do you expect for MH4G?

Here are some points of comparison:

Monster Hunter 2nd - 1,723,187
Monster Hunter 2ndG - 2,453,132 (up to 3.9M if you include "The Best" sales)
Monster Hunter 3rd - 4,700,000 approx. (up to 5M if you include "The Best" sales)

Monster Hunter 3 - 1,041,174 (※on Wii)
Monster Hunter 3G - 1,585,493
Monster Hunter 4 - 3,477,008

Earth Seeker - 13,514

MH3G and MH4 are still selling decent numbers weekly so their numbers are outdated but this gives you roughly each game's performance. Since the focus shift to handheld, "G" versions have actually performed extremely well, although the Wii→3DS transition of MH3 was a bit of a special case.

Other important considerations:
• 3DS is now at 15,720,727 units sold = probably slightly under 16 Millions when MH4G launches.
• PSP was at 8,710,410 units sold when MHP2ndG launched.
• PSP was at 16,034,215 units sold when MHP3rd launched = similar numbers to 3DS for MH4G.
• MH4G will face tough competition from Yōkai Watch 2, the Pocket Monsters remakes and Smash Bros.
• But those releases also mean 3DS hardware sales should be rather healthy until the end of the year.
• According to Famitsu numbers, MH4 is now at <80%-100%> stock clearance.
• Top 3DS games in Japan right now are Animal Crossing (4.1M approx.) and Pokémon X/Y (4.3M approx.).

So, will it be the first time that a "G" episode fails to grow the franchise on handheld?

I don't think the game can reach the heights of MHP3rd, but MH4 performed pretty well despite the arrival of new, fresh franchises on the market (Pazudora, Yōkai Watch, Monster Strike etc.) and the overall slowdown of software sales on dedicated machines.

I am pretty confident it will pass 3 Million sales. I think 3.5M to 4M is the right window to consider for this title. It's actually what Capcom expects to sell by April 2015 - although those numbers might include international sales depending on when it comes out in EU+US+Asia - which means they probably hope for a LTD above 4M in Japan.





夏色の 誘惑 が大人になる頃、 益々 憂は エキサイティング クオリティ

Ishmael
4897th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Ishmael26b
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(4):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Fri 20 Jun 00:08post reply

quote:
Once you adblock away the Nintendoshouldbuy crazies like any sensible person would do, Tencent and Nexon are by far the most frequently cited potential buyers following this news. Especially Tencent as they already share a business relationship with Capcom, as HokutoAndy mentioned.

That being said, the news is not "Capcom is on sale". The news is that Capcom's shares are not protected. This means two things:
1. Shareholders don't see Capcom being able to grow on their own. Which is a fair assessment. Capcom is actually a rather small company. With the direction they are taking (online and mobile service), it's natural to hope they partner with a stronger ally.
2. The next move does not have to be an immediate buyout. e.g. it can start with a 20% share buyout which would give the investing company leverage without forcing a full integration. There might even be several companies fighting for control.

Thank you for being the only sensible person on the internet! So much online discussion about this has been corporate wish fulfillment and blinkered nostalgia it made me wonder if I was ever going to find someone who could properly explain this situation and give realistic scenarios for what might unfold. After skimming dozens of pages of "Nintendo should make a Mega Man game that co-stars Sonic" I didn't think I was ever going to find a levelheaded analysis.

That said, I do agree that Tencent is the most likely potential suitor. I wonder if there have been off the record talks that helped sway the vote? It's hard to say since we're on the outside looking in.





Iggy
9773th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(4):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Fri 20 Jun 00:24post reply

quote:
It depends on their expectations, but considering that the budget for 4 Ultimate can't be especially big due to the huge amount of recycled material, it should be a huge financial success, even if it doesn't move astronomical numbers. But yeah, it won't be another P3rd.

Ah, I had missed this part. I still don't understand the series much, but is the recycled part of 4G more important than, say, 3G? OR does it have less original content? Or is 4 so much less popular than 3 that people are thinking "urgh, more of that game"?
Is it really comparable to 3rd which was a totally original game (or so I think?)?





chazumaru
1255th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(5):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Fri 20 Jun 02:03:post reply

quote:
It depends on their expectations, but considering that the budget for 4 Ultimate can't be especially big due to the huge amount of recycled material, it should be a huge financial success, even if it doesn't move astronomical numbers. But yeah, it won't be another P3rd.
Ah, I had missed this part. I still don't understand the series much, but is the recycled part of 4G more important than, say, 3G? OR does it have less original content? Or is 4 so much less popular than 3 that people are thinking "urgh, more of that game"?
Is it really comparable to 3rd which was a totally original game (or so I think?)?


MH3G was a special case because it shifted the game from console to handheld, but the simplest way to describe it is "a combination of MH3 and MHP3rd". Instead of a brand new area to explore, the game included an area from MHP3rd. A lot of MHP3rd monsters also returned. There were also comeback monsters from earlier games, and 10 new monsters.

I assume the idea behind this merger of the twin "third" episodes was to convince both Wii fans and PSP fans to migrate to 3DS (to prepare for MH4), without wasting too much energy that could be used on the development of MH4 instead.

MH4G, as far as we know, is closer to MHP2ndG in spirit: it features a new area (a desert) and new monsters + returning monsters. I don't know where fans found the headcount but according to Wiki sources, MH4G will feature the highest number of monsters in the series (at least 86).

I have no idea if MH4 is well received or not. Probably hard to check online with all the console warriors pushing their agenda. But considering the sales, it is clear Capcom at least succeeded in bringing the majority of Monster Hunter fans on 3DS. The mystery is whether they'll come back for more.





夏色の 誘惑 が大人になる頃、 益々 憂は エキサイティング クオリティ

[this message was edited by chazumaru on Fri 20 Jun 02:09]

Pollyanna
3656th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(3):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Fri 20 Jun 18:20post reply

quote:

Close enough: they release in august (in Japan) a Dark Arisen special package with all sorts of DLC and a DVD with videos and stuff.
Either it's to prepare for a sequel, or they just want to scrap the last little bits of moneys this game can get before burying it.


Although this fits with the model of Capcom squeezing every last thing they can out of their resources, I really can't imagine who would want to buy this. Will people who were iffy about purchasing the game be swayed by DLC that even if it was explained, probably wouldn't mean anything to them? Surely they won't be interested in a DVD that would likely only appeal to the extremely small number of devoted fans. Well, whatever. Maybe they're just doing this in place of a budget release. More power to them, I guess. I'd love to see a DD sequel, myself.
quote:
This is an interesting topic! Zepy/Polly/anyone, how much do you expect for MH4G?

For some reason, I felt like the level of hype for the game was sort of low, but that could be completely unfounded. I'm not sure what the state of the franchise is in terms of player excitement. MH4 had some complaints from players because the new insect staff weapon was grossly overpowered. Being able to vault freely onto the backs of the monsters, while other weapons required more iffy maneuvers gave it an obvious advantage. The ability to launch other hunters onto the backs of monsters with teamwork seems to be their answer to that in 4G.

I didn't feel like 4 was especially lacking in content, though, so the selling point of "more more more!" in 4G isn't really grabbing me. From Capcom's perspective, it "buys a lot of time," since it will take players a while to weed through all of the stuff and they will probably be planning the next "evolution" in the meantime. I skipped on 3G, despite liking 3 and P3rd a lot, because I had played so much P3rd that I wanted to wait for the next "evolution" in the series before I stepped back in.

After playing 3, I couldn't go back to 2ndG and I imagine after 4, P3rd wouldn't feel right anymore, either. Although I (surprisingly) enjoyed the swimming in 3, moving to P3rd was welcome, because of its wealth of content and the ability to play it with friends in the same room. 4G has no such advantage over 4 and no particular selling point (that I can tell) other than volume, so I do wonder if sales may suffer as a result. I'm explaining the factors from my perspective, but I have no idea if my feelings are reciprocated in the least by the Japanese community. My guess for the game is that it will under perform 4. I don't think a low-end 3 million is a ridiculous hope, but I don't think they'll be able to recreate the magic sales of P3rd for a while, if ever.

It makes me nervous when companies have megaton-high sales expectations for anything, but I have no doubt that, even if sales aren't tops for the series, 4G will be a huge success in terms of what they put into it and what they get out of it.





I am undressed from 80’s style and recreated with modern sexy and beautiful style that amaze you and feel never been experienced world before.

Just a Person
1582th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member





"Re(1):What if Activision-Blizzard buys Capcom" , posted Fri 20 Jun 22:56post reply

quote:
Imagine Activision-Blizzard buying Capcom

You would get Guile and Charlie as Calladuty DLC.

Or Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter, and see what Chun Li, Cammy, and all your favorite SF stars look like rendered in 3D by Activision studios.



You mean, Chun-Li, Cammy and the other SF girls looking like travestites with big muscles? Well, I guess it could work in Poison's case...

I knew Capcom was facing financial difficulties, but the possibility of it being bought by another company... wow. How bad is its current situation? Is it already SNK-like bad?





I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.

Zepy
1643th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member





"Re(4):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Sat 21 Jun 03:13post reply

quote:
This is an interesting topic! Zepy/Polly/anyone, how much do you expect for MH4G?


I'm actually expecting it to do only slightly more than half of MH4's sales. Stores have been racing to sell MH4 under cost for a while now so it's usually an indicator that the power of the franchise for this generation is decreasing.

So yeah I'm expecting something like 400k launch weekend, 1.2m first week, then it slows down a lot and ends at 2m.

Also it'll probably have sell through of 95% at launch and the game will be sold out everywhere. Because all the stores losing money for selling MH4 at 1600 yen will be more cautious at their first batch orders for MH4G and they'll order less copies just to be safe.

I'm also wrong a lot of the time when it comes to guessing big franchise sales numbers.





chazumaru
1256th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(5):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Sat 21 Jun 06:19:post reply

Thanks guys, interesting comments. It's true that my 3.5M target is probably too ambitious considering the situation behind MH2G (still in the middle of the growing hype) and MH3G (switching to handheld and acting as "G" episode for two titles). Without those special situations helping it, it's almost impossible that MH4G catches up to MH4.

That being said, I am pretty confident it passes 2M in its first fiscal year (so until April 2015). And one point to consider is that, unlike MH4, MH4G will logically sell for a much longer period of time without being replaced. So I am still rather confident about passing the 3M mark LTD.

quote:
1.2m first week

This on the other hand I am almost skeptical because of the release schedule and many million sellers hitting 3DS at the same time, creating a stress on card production. I would not be surprised if the first two weeks are 1M shipment each.





夏色の 誘惑 が大人になる頃、 益々 憂は エキサイティング クオリティ

[this message was edited by chazumaru on Sat 21 Jun 06:23]

Iggy
9775th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(6):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Sat 21 Jun 07:58post reply

quote:
This on the other hand I am almost skeptical because of the release schedule and many million sellers hitting 3DS at the same time, creating a stress on card production. I would not be surprised if the first two weeks are 1M shipment each.


What else is there? MH4G, Smash, and...?
Also, how is the competition? Despite all the fun we've poking at it, it seems Toukiden is emerging to be the most serious challenger, but it's still miles late, no?





Sasha
4th Post



user profileedit/delete message

New Customer

"Re(7):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Sat 21 Jun 15:06post reply

quote:
This on the other hand I am almost skeptical because of the release schedule and many million sellers hitting 3DS at the same time, creating a stress on card production. I would not be surprised if the first two weeks are 1M shipment each.

What else is there? MH4G, Smash, and...?
Also, how is the competition? Despite all the fun we've poking at it, it seems Toukiden is emerging to be the most serious challenger, but it's still miles late, no?




Minecraft and Borderlands 2. The later was kinda responsible of the 1600% increase of sales according to this thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=839048





Pollyanna
3657th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(8):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Sat 21 Jun 19:27post reply

quote:

Minecraft and Borderlands 2. The later was kinda responsible of the 1600% increase of sales according to this thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=839048


I think he meant "hunting games"? Either way, that's neat. I haven't heard good things about the Borderlands port, but even a mediocre Borderlands should make for a pretty rich experience.

As for hunting games, I believe the 2nd best seller is God Eater. God Eater 2 came out somewhat recently and moved bigger numbers than Toukiden without the advantage of an international release. Both games are under 1 million, though. Soul Sacrifice trails behind that, but I don't know how international sales influence its numbers.

Personally, although I haven't played it much, Toukiden did seem to offer a Monster Hunter-ish experience in a positive way. The characters and monsters both have a good weight and animate well enough.

Surely God Eater fans are more interested in the world and story and soundtrack, though. The gameplay is quite poor/sloppy in comparison to Monster Hunter, but it has much more story if that's what you want.

I recently played the rather expansive demo for Freedom Wars, which looks nice and has some creative gameplay ideas, too. Sort of like Soul Sacrifice, it feels like it had its own concept, rather than piggybacking on Monster Hunter so much. It seems pretty solid and it has some "meat" to it in terms of its battle system. Even though I doubt it'll turn around big numbers, I personally wish that Vita owners would take notice of it.

Regardless, I don't see any of these games as "competitors," seeing how many people play Monster Hunter in comparison. I would imagine, like myself, most of the people who buy these games also play/prefer Monster Hunter. It almost reminds me of Street Fighter vs all the other fighting games that came out during the Super Nintendo era.





I am undressed from 80’s style and recreated with modern sexy and beautiful style that amaze you and feel never been experienced world before.

chazumaru
1257th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(7):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Sat 21 Jun 21:21:post reply

quote:
What else is there? MH4G, Smash, and...?

10.7 Yokai Watch 2 (two versions, guaranteed million seller near launch)
13.9 Smash Bros (guaranteed million seller near launch)
21.11 Pokémon R/S (two versions, guaranteed multi-million seller near launch)

... Actually, the releases are better spaced than I thought. MH4G is scheduled for "Autumn". If they manage to release in October, they should be fine.

quote:
Also, how is the competition? Despite all the fun we've poking at it, it seems Toukiden is emerging to be the most serious challenger, but it's still miles late, no?

In terms of popularity, it seems the most successful competitors to MH have been Phantasy Star Portable (soon coming back on Vita with Phantasy Star Nova) and the God Eater series.

On an anecdotal level, I was quite surprised by the positive reaction to Toukiden among my friends. I have a colleague who is a hardcore MH-fan and completely rejected God Eater 2, yet he loves Toukiden. He also did not connect with the Freedom Wars demo and is much more excited by Toukiden Kiwami (although nothing compares to MH4G in his mind).

Freedom Wars seem to be decently pushed by Sony. I wonder what Zepy and Prof can say from what it looks like at local JP retail but online, there are some positive signs for the game's launch.

What is interesting is that all those series are now on a different hardware than Monster Hunter (although I would not be surprised if the next God Eater goes to 3DS). Final Fantasy Explorers will be the first real test for a MH competitor on 3DS. I think they are late to the party, though. We are clearly over the hump of the monster hunting craze. MHP2 (+ MHP2G) was Street Fighter II. We are now in the KOF'96/SFZ2/Real Bout stage of the fighting game boom parallel.





夏色の 誘惑 が大人になる頃、 益々 憂は エキサイティング クオリティ

[this message was edited by chazumaru on Sat 21 Jun 21:25]

Seizya
3229th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Capcut." , posted Sun 22 Jun 09:31post reply

quote:
Discuss.



Seeing that Capcom has done close to nothing for me for the past several years or so, I figured that they would be in a bad situation. Polly's right. Any company that's sane enough will be a way better version of Capcom than Capcom themselves.

It sounds insane, but Maou and GPA have a plan. Someone should start a Kickstarter project. Call the company Capcom Madman or something. ( ̄▽ ̄)





chazumaru
1257th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Sun 22 Jun 22:11post reply

quote:
Seeing that Capcom has done close to nothing for me for the past several years or so, I figured that they would be in a bad situation.



Capcom has made ¥3.4 Billions in profit this fiscal year (+16% increase from last year). They should think doing nothing for you has been an excellent strategy.

Were Capcom in a "bad situation", its shareholders would not be thinking a bigger company could be interested to buy their shares at a premium!





夏色の 誘惑 が大人になる頃、 益々 憂は エキサイティング クオリティ

Seizya
3232th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(1):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Mon 23 Jun 00:20:post reply

quote:
Seeing that Capcom has done close to nothing for me for the past several years or so, I figured that they would be in a bad situation.


Capcom has made ¥3.4 Billions in profit this fiscal year (+16% increase from last year). They should think doing nothing for you has been an excellent strategy.

Were Capcom in a "bad situation", its shareholders would not be thinking a bigger company could be interested to buy their shares at a premium!



Okay. "Bad situation" is not a pair of ideal words. Let me try to use better ones. Seeing the words "being up for sale" along a company is an extreme red flag for me regardless if they make 1 million or 3.4 billion yen this year. If people are saying that any company or group of fans for that matter will be a better Capcom than Capcom themselves (as I'm not the first one to say or type this), that's not a good statement to see or hear.





[this message was edited by Seizya on Mon 23 Jun 00:25]

chazumaru
1259th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(2):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Mon 23 Jun 03:33:post reply

They are not "up for sale".The majority shareholders (Tsujimoto family) have communicated no intention to sell. What they risk is an aggressive purchase (hostile takeover) from a company buying back shares from other shareholders, which the Tsujimoto family was trying to protect themselves against during the 2008 Monster Hunter boom. In theory, Capcom are as much for sale as are Disney, Nintendo or Apple. My personal opinion on Capcom's management aside, I am sure we can also find fans who are convinced they would take care of those three companies much better than they do.

But in a sense, you are right to understand this is a motion of defiance towards Capcom's management.





夏色の 誘惑 が大人になる頃、 益々 憂は エキサイティング クオリティ

[this message was edited by chazumaru on Mon 23 Jun 03:40]

caiooa
2th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: n/a
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

New Customer

"Re(1):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Mon 23 Jun 07:08post reply

quote:
this fiscal year (+16% increase from last year).

and what about the last 3 years? You know...it's very clear that SFxT didn't match the popularity they expect. Then they canceled new projects (darkstallkers), recicled every material they could (porting older games to psn, jamming sfxt material in sf4 as a "update").

It looks like now they may be able to go for a new project, but they definitively had taked a blow with the gamble of SFxT...of forcing down gems (to sell more dlc) expecting to compensate it sponsoring events, tourneys, advertising in tv, doing reality shows with sfxt, etc.





Pollyanna
3658th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(2):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Mon 23 Jun 08:01post reply

quote:

and what about the last 3 years? You know...it's very clear that SFxT didn't match the popularity they expect. Then they canceled new projects (darkstallkers), recicled every material they could (porting older games to psn, jamming sfxt material in sf4 as a "update").


Capcom is infamous for recycling materials. This is nothing new nor a sign of bad times for them. To my knowledge, Darkstalkers was never greenlit, so it wasn't exactly "canceled" either.

Although its perception is quite negative to many players, I don't know that SFxT underperformed terribly unless they really did expect to make like...millions from gems. However, it is a good posterboy for Capcom's run where they got so much bad press for on-disc DLC and such. I think the big disappointment for them was actually Biohazard 6, which was several million under what they expected and was poorly received as well. (Their expectations were pretty ludicrous on that one, though)

I'm only arguing my understanding of the situation, so I may be mistaken and everything you said may be right on. From my perspective, it seems like Capcom didn't have a single crushing underperformer, but a long line of titles that all underperformed at least a little. Since many of these games were big budget productions, there were talks that Capcom didn't have the capital to make more games that would turn around their fortune. This, combined with their worsening reputation as of late, made the situation look bad, but I have no idea what kind of state they're actually in.

Chaz put things into perspective nicely, but after their almost-no-show at E3 this year, I do wonder what's going on.





I am undressed from 80’s style and recreated with modern sexy and beautiful style that amaze you and feel never been experienced world before.

chazumaru
1259th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(2):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Mon 23 Jun 11:09post reply

quote:

and what about the last 3 years?



Here are Capcom's last 16 fiscal years (fiscal year = "20xx" ended April 1st, 20xx):

1999 +¥2B profit
2000 +¥10B profit
2001 +¥6B profit
2002 +¥5B profit
2003 -¥20B loss
2004 -¥9B loss
2005 +¥4B profit
2006 +¥7B profit
2007 +¥6B profit
2008 +¥8B profit
2009 +¥8B profit
2010 +¥2B profit
2011 +¥8B profit
2012 +¥7B profit
2013 +¥3B profit
2014 +¥3B profit

Rounded up to the billion each time but the exact numbers don't matter so much for the sake of our discussion. The 2003 and 2004 losses are not only due to disappointing video game sales and the collapse of the arcade market but, more importantly, to terrible real estate investments through their subsidiary Captron.

quote:
It looks like now they may be able to go for a new project, but they definitively had taked a blow with the gamble of SFxT...of forcing down gems (to sell more dlc) expecting to compensate it sponsoring events, tourneys, advertising in tv, doing reality shows with sfxt, etc.

Calling SFxT a "gamble" is a Dhalsim HK-level of stretch. It's a project that disappointed in both critical reception and sales, and the innovative DLC strategy (to remain neutral on the matter) did not pay off as well as expected. But the recycling of assets for Ultra SF4 is rather the demonstration that SFxT has been a pretty efficient project from a production standpoint.

Dragon's Dogma! Now, that was a gamble. Dragon's Dogma is ultimately the source of the entire Western Developer strategy at Capcom (because every internal developer in Japan was stuck on either Bio6 or DD), cost a fortune which led to a hurrying of quick monetization strategies (such as the SFxT gems) and a quick succession of new F2P browser games, created a HR disaster and ultimately resulted in disappointing sales, especially outside Japan. Dragon's Dogma is one of the most dangerous game-related investments Capcom has ever made, and connected to almost every recent decision by Capcom that most core Capcom fans complain about today. This very same audience has collectively embraced Dragon's Dogma as one of the best recent Capcom games. So, should we embrace or blame the game? The full story is never simple.





夏色の 誘惑 が大人になる頃、 益々 憂は エキサイティング クオリティ

Pollyanna
3659th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(3):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Mon 23 Jun 11:43post reply

quote:

Dragon's Dogma! Now, that was a gamble. Dragon's Dogma is ultimately the source of the entire Western Developer strategy at Capcom (because every internal developer in Japan was stuck on either Bio6 or DD), cost a fortune which led to a hurrying of quick monetization strategies (such as the SFxT gems) and a quick succession of new F2P browser games, created a HR disaster and ultimately resulted in disappointing sales, especially outside Japan.


Capcom said they were turning it into a major franchise after its "success" and I don't recall it selling under expectation. I got the impression that they didn't expect to make a huge amount of money on it, but hoped to gather enough attention that they could build on its success over time. I agree that it was both a huge risk and a huge money sink, but they said that it "exceeded expectations," even if their net profit was down that year, which would disqualify it as having "disappointing sales." You're more knowledgeable on this stuff, so please educate me if my perception is wrong.

On a side note, possibly in line with Capcom's expectations, my personal impression of Dragon's Dogma was "well, I bet the sequel will be awesome." This half came true, as I was extremely fond of Dark Arisen and have high hopes for another game that more closely follows that model.





I am undressed from 80’s style and recreated with modern sexy and beautiful style that amaze you and feel never been experienced world before.

chazumaru
1261th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(4):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Mon 23 Jun 12:52:post reply

quote:

Capcom said they were turning it into a major franchise after its "success" and I don't recall it selling under expectation.

Pretty much all their 2013 console games have performed under expectation.
For Resident Evil 6, they expected 7M, and it has sold 5.8M so far.
For Dragon's Dogma, they expected 1.5M year one, it has sold 1.3M so far (it seems DD:DA is included).
For Lost Planet 3, they expected 1.3M (what the hell), then it got pushed to the next FY and, hum...

I agree with you that Capcom probably did not expect to make money on the first game as much as they tried to set up the franchise (because 1.5M is a bit short to make money on a big PS3/360 release nowadays). For instance, Dragon's Dogma only sold around 470K in Japan, then DD:DA sold an extra 200K copies. By Capcom's new franchise standards, selling under 500K is quite disappointing and most likely not enough to make up for the big PR effort (the opening theme by B'z was probably not cheap).

On the other hand, when you consider the reality of the market, DD is actually the best-selling new franchise on PS3 in Japan, and scoring those extra 200K with DD:DA is both a positive sign of word-of-mouth and a good way to recoup on costs.

Here is what is much more worrying for the franchise:
1. Japan accounts for 33% to 50% of worldwide sales depending on how Capcom counts DD:DA in the overall DD sales (they have remained vague on this topic). That's a dangerously high ratio for any PS3+Xbox AAA release.
2. Dragon's Dogma was nowhere to be seen in the recent "strategies for growth" PDF shared by Capcom (see page 29).

In any case, it's not the the sales of Dragon's Dogma in a vacuum that I meant to point out. It's that the decision to let the Devil May Cry team work on Dragon's Dogma has had consequences on Capcom's entire business and has been indirectly responsible for the reach to Western studios, including the production of the infamous "DmC" (which is why I find amusing when fans complain that DmC was not done by the original team.)

Dragon's Dogma is not that interesting as a story of success or failure, but it is a wonderful enigma in terms of opportunity cost. Was it worth it? We don't have enough info from the outside to answer that question, and we'd probably drown under the "what if" scenarios if we were to dig any deeper (and that's always fun, but I have an early morning flight to catch).

Considering all I have written above and Capcom's detailed strategy in that PDF, I expect that the core of the Dragon's Dogma team is now entirely focussed on creating a new Devil May Cry. I would also worry that a sequel to Dragon's Dogma will only be considered if it can be turned into highly-monetized game (such as a F2P experience, a MMO or an episodic game). But maybe I am being very pessimistic!





夏色の 誘惑 が大人になる頃、 益々 憂は エキサイティング クオリティ

[this message was edited by chazumaru on Mon 23 Jun 13:03]

Zepy
1644th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member





"Re(3):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Mon 23 Jun 15:41post reply

quote:
SFxT

Oh! Oh! Oh!

That was a nightmare.

I don't know if Capcom lost money themselves, but a lot of people down the distribution chain lost a lotttt.





Mosquiton
2006th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(5):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Mon 23 Jun 16:19post reply

quote:

Here is what is much more worrying for the franchise:
1. Japan accounts for 33% to 50% of worldwide sales depending on how Capcom counts DD:DA in the overall DD sales (they have remained vague on this topic). That's a dangerously high ratio for any PS3+Xbox AAA release.
2. Dragon's Dogma was nowhere to be seen in the recent "strategies for growth" PDF shared by Capcom (see page 29).


Maybe it's my optimism talking, but I think you might be a bit pessimistic here. Quotes in articles like this one put Dragon's Dogma right in line with the "establishing new sources of growth" quote on page 29 of Capcom's global strategy PDF, and I don't imagine that they would include a new franchise like this on what appears to be simply a list of established series/top sellers.

DMC didn't significantly outperform Dragon's Dogma in terms of sales, either, and since DMC was critically well-received I have to wonder if they'd put the blame on the western developer Ninja Theory. They might just as well conclude that Devil May Cry has more or less run its course and has nowhere to go, really. Which is kind of my feeling on the series as much as I love the original.

Of course it's nothing we can predict or control, but it's fun to speculate. I used to care so much about Capcom! But honestly if I could ask one thing of the company personally it would be a proper sequel to Dragon's Dogma. So I've got my fingers crossed.





/ / /

chazumaru
1262th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(6):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Mon 23 Jun 20:35:post reply

quote:
Quotes in articles like this one put Dragon's Dogma right in line with the "establishing new sources of growth" quote on page 29 of Capcom's global strategy PDF

Well, one is a quote from June 2012 following the very first shipment of the game, during Capcom's intense PR campaign, while the other is a document from May 2014 outlining the new priorities for the company following disappointing growth over the last two years (2013 because of underperforming AAA titles, 2014 because of underperforming online PC division). So, personally, I would put more faith into the latter.

quote:
DMC didn't significantly outperform Dragon's Dogma in terms of sales, either

Yes, DmC was a disappointment for Capcom in terms of sales (1.4M). It barely outsold Dragon's Dogma whereas the target was around 2M. In comparison, Devil May Cry 4 is the best selling episode in the series and sold 2.9M copies.

Capcom already indicated they want to bring back "outsourced franchises" in-house and Devil May Cray is mentioned as one of their six pillars for vertical growth based on powerful IP. That is why I think Itsuno and his team are working on the next game as we speak. If they announce DD2 instead, well, I was wrong!

According to recent reports, Capcom is also vastly expanding their infrastructure in Osaka (two new development offices will be finished in 2015/2016) in order to solve the current issue of workforce Vs. output. This expansion is probably eating up in their finances since 2013, which might explain in part why they don't have so many console releases this year and rely on stuff such as a Gyakuten collection, an update for MH4 and the copy-pasta of Ultra SF4. They cannot take too many risks while they expand, and the current console market is very risky.





夏色の 誘惑 が大人になる頃、 益々 憂は エキサイティング クオリティ

[this message was edited by chazumaru on Mon 23 Jun 20:36]

Ishmael
4899th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Ishmael26b
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(7):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Tue 24 Jun 02:25post reply

This has been a very interesting discussion but my main takeaway from all this is that there is a story in what is going on at Capcom but it's not the story that anyone is bothering to report. Look back at the initial link kofoguz posted; that article could not be more half-assed or poorly researched. Writing about the video game business means you are occasionally going to have to write about the business side of things. Too bad many game journalists do not appear to be up to the task.





Maou
2660th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(8):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Tue 24 Jun 02:56post reply

quote:
Writing about the video game business means you are occasionally going to have to write about the business side of things. Too bad many game journalists do not appear to be up to the task.

Amended. Next to none of the games "journalists" regurgitating press releases even have journalism or writing degrees, let alone business degrees of all things. These people are about as authoritative as 1997 AOL Chat.





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

Mosquiton
2008th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(7):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Tue 24 Jun 03:30:post reply

quote:
Quotes in articles like this one put Dragon's Dogma right in line with the "establishing new sources of growth" quote on page 29 of Capcom's global strategy PDF
Well, one is a quote from June 2012 following the very first shipment of the game, during Capcom's intense PR campaign, while the other is a document from May 2014 outlining the new priorities for the company following disappointing growth over the last two years (2013 because of underperforming AAA titles, 2014 because of underperforming online PC division). So, personally, I would put more faith into the latter.



Point taken, but I'm still not convinced that the series on page 29 there are anything other than Capcom saying "these series have had strong sales, please take this as assurance."

Obviously Capcom is reconsidering their outsourcing, but do you think the presence of Lost Planet on the list means we're likely to see that series continue on? I guess there are other ways to do that rather than trying to give birth to a triple A sequel. Still, I wonder.

Lost Planet 2 sold well below expectations and LP3 completely bombed. Maybe it's mentioned here as a means of deflecting criticism. As in, "Well, you can see that this has been a pretty hot series which is why we've continued to invest in it." Whatever the reason, I have to imagine there's a substantial amount of corporate spin applied to this financial overview doc.

Edit: Since I'm really only here to ponder the fate of Dragon's Dogma, does anyone (such as chaz) have any idea how Dragon's Dogma Quest performed (or didn't perform)?

Double edit: Speaking to games journalism, I think it's important to differentiate between writers, critics, and journalists. If you're going to "report the news," I do think there's some responsibility to do some research and have your facts straight. But nobody needs a journalism degree to look at Capcom's recent history and say "Huh, Capcom isn't in such great shape these days are they."





/ / /

[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Tue 24 Jun 03:47]

hokutoAndy
73th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Occasional Customer

"Re(8):So Capcom is on the sale. (?)" , posted Tue 24 Jun 08:27post reply

Then I await the coming of the "Street Fighter III" of hunting games.





Ishmael
4900th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Ishmael26b
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(8):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Tue 24 Jun 09:36post reply

quote:
Obviously Capcom is reconsidering their outsourcing, but do you think the presence of Lost Planet on the list means we're likely to see that series continue on? I guess there are other ways to do that rather than trying to give birth to a triple A sequel. Still, I wonder.

Look for Lost Planet E.X. Troopers 2 coming soon!

quote:
Double edit: Speaking to games journalism, I think it's important to differentiate between writers, critics, and journalists. If you're going to "report the news," I do think there's some responsibility to do some research and have your facts straight. But nobody needs a journalism degree to look at Capcom's recent history and say "Huh, Capcom isn't in such great shape these days are they."

But where would someone learn this from? Destructoid's man could barely be bothered to reference a Gamasutra article, which was only a summary of the Capcom press release. Kotaku featured a two line blurb. IGN ran a blog Will Microsoft Buy Capcom? in which one of the bloggers states that they don't know the internal politics and inner workings of Capcom's business. Then why are they talking? I have yet to see in the US gaming press that is as even handed or well researched as the posts in this thread. This is not a blanket condemnation of all game writing; I think there are a number of writers who do a fine job of discussing the specialized quirks of this form of entertainment. The problem is too many writers are expected to be jacks of all trades and are forced to write about business finagling and other matters which are out of their field of expertise. If there is a game journalist out there who understands the business side of things and is able to write about it in an engaging manner they should specialize in those sort of articles because I suspect they would become very popular very quickly.





Iggy
9776th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(8):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Tue 24 Jun 19:52post reply

quote:
But nobody needs a journalism degree to look at Capcom's recent history and say "Huh, Capcom isn't in such great shape these days are they."

But even that is not as self-evident as the current trends could lead us to believe. To quote Chaz,
quote:
2011 +¥8B profit
2012 +¥7B profit
2013 +¥3B profit
2014 +¥3B profit

I know a lot of companies would like to be in such "not great shape". Hell, I would be fine with being in such a not a great shape as well personally!
I stand with my opinion from earlier in the thread that Capcom is not a desirable acquisition for many companies, but I don't think they are in any worse shape than most other game companies to begin with.





Pollyanna
3660th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(9):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Tue 24 Jun 20:18post reply

I've seen a lot of crackpot "this is what Capcom needs to do!" theories that are mostly "weakest dog barks the loudest" scenarios, but I'm trying to puzzle over it, myself.

(the following are just opinionated musings)

If they are indeed making a new DMC, as Chaz guesses, I can't imagine what they could bring to the table with it that would make it a dramatic success. Did the reboot not sell up to expectations simply because it was too radical of a change, or are people just not that interested in DMC anymore? I mean, I don't think they are and the reboot probably didn't help. Millions of people aren't going to be super excited about a new DMC just because it's different than the last one that they didn't care for. Plenty of players have likely just moved on. (I'd love to be surprised, though!)

The timing might be wrong, but I do think they have the right idea with Deep Down. It's a game you can play with friends and you can play forever. Those are popular ideas right now. Even though Dragon's Dogma seems like the "underdog" in terms of their franchises, unlike a different title, they could recycle resources from the previous game to make a sequel with a huge amount of content. If they added a randomly generated or repeatable multiplayer segment, it might go a very long way.

I constantly hear "they need to make a new MegaMan," but I don't know what approach would be best. They seemed to have some decent ideas with the games they cancelled, as both would give you more to "chew on" than an old-school style MegaMan, but I doubt we'll see them revive either of those titles.

I don't buy into the "they just need to make the next Biohazard like the old ones" line I hear all the time, as BH5 was nothing like the old games and sold tremendously well. BH6 wasn't unpopular because it was too much like an action game, but because it consistently failed to show any consideration toward the player. I do wonder if players are eager for a new, not-so-tone-deaf BH game more than a new DMC.

At any rate, no matter what they do, its clear that they can't rely on Japanese sales for a console title. That seems to be true for almost everything these days.

quote:
Since I'm really only here to ponder the fate of Dragon's Dogma, does anyone (such as chaz) have any idea how Dragon's Dogma Quest performed (or didn't perform)?


If the game itself hasn't become more playable, there's no way in hell it's even remotely successful. The core of the game was actually pretty strong for a free to play title, but the constant loading and downloading made it just short of literally unplayable. I was in disbelief.

I tried out most of Capcom's free to play titles and while they probably pay for their own tiny budgets, none of them have any lasting power. Dragon's Dogma Quest was by far the best contender, but its inexcusable technical issues likely sank it.

I have absolutely no data whatsoever to support any of this, of course.





I am undressed from 80’s style and recreated with modern sexy and beautiful style that amaze you and feel never been experienced world before.

Iggy
9777th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 00:21post reply

quote:
I constantly hear "they need to make a new MegaMan," but I don't know what approach would be best. They seemed to have some decent ideas with the games they cancelled, as both would give you more to "chew on" than an old-school style MegaMan, but I doubt we'll see them revive either of those titles.

Megaman can only come back as a new, different franchise aimed at kids. It needs the second coming of Rockman EXE.
Unfortunately, it is unlikely that anyone at Capcom can pull it out, since Gaist Crusher, which tried to be a Level5 franchise, bombed horribly.
Obviously, it probably wouldn't have performed better if had been called Gaist Rockman. But trying to emulate EXE or Yokai Watch is the only way the franchise can ever become relevant again, though not to people of our generations.
Trying to cater to older players (or manchildren who couldn't outgrow how cool X and Zero were when they were 12) is only going to lead to another failure like Rockman Dash, that is going to be popular with a small circle of fans but that nobody will buy.

Actually, now I think of it, instead of "giving Rockman to Nintendo" as I keep reading everywhere, they should partner with Level 5.
They shouldn't have done Gyakuten Layton, they should have done Rockman Watch.





Zepy
1645th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member





"Re(2):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 03:39post reply

quote:
I constantly hear "they need to make a new MegaMan," but I don't know what approach would be best. They seemed to have some decent ideas with the games they cancelled, as both would give you more to "chew on" than an old-school style MegaMan, but I doubt we'll see them revive either of those titles.
Megaman can only come back as a new, different franchise aimed at kids. It needs the second coming of Rockman EXE.
Unfortunately, it is unlikely that anyone at Capcom can pull it out, since Gaist Crusher, which tried to be a Level5 franchise, bombed horribly.
Obviously, it probably wouldn't have performed better if had been called Gaist Rockman. But trying to emulate EXE or Yokai Watch is the only way the franchise can ever become relevant again, though not to people of our generations.
Trying to cater to older players (or manchildren who couldn't outgrow how cool X and Zero were when they were 12) is only going to lead to another failure like Rockman Dash, that is going to be popular with a small circle of fans but that nobody will buy.

Going off on a tangent, but I've thought about this a lot - is it possible for Japanese game companies to come back to international relevance again? I can never think of a solution to this.

Over the past generation the Japanese video game industry has gone down so badly only the top percentile still hold relevance internationally. And even the top percentile don't look like they'll be able to hold much longer as more and more European and US studios show what they're capable of.

Maybe everyone is doomed to smartphones.





Spoon
2618th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(2):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 05:10post reply

quote:
But trying to emulate EXE or Yokai Watch is the only way the franchise can ever become relevant again, though not to people of our generations.



I remember when Rockman EXE I was amazed at how innovative and interesting and creative the game design was, and how charming it was by invoking tons of elements of the Rockman IP.

Boiling down the EXE game to some concepts gets:
- collection
- gameplay-affecting customization
- random elements play significant role in combat, collection, and customization
- quick, real-time combat instances
- exploration that doesn't require manual skill
- gameplay that lets the player put it down easily but has great depth
- Rockman iconic visual designs
- gameplay effects invoking iconic Rockman designs/systems
- new, kid-friendly setting for world that doesn't require huge amount of prior Rockman knowledge

That's still pretty vague, but it makes me think that rather than making another EXE, it's not impossible to make another game that has these same thrusts but isn't EXE. EXE was great, and I was amazed that Capcom had it in them to make something that great. They can do it again (I hope)!





nobinobita
1311th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(3):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 06:17post reply

quote:
I constantly hear "they need to make a new MegaMan," but I don't know what approach would be best. They seemed to have some decent ideas with the games they cancelled, as both would give you more to "chew on" than an old-school style MegaMan, but I doubt we'll see them revive either of those titles.
Megaman can only come back as a new, different franchise aimed at kids. It needs the second coming of Rockman EXE.
Unfortunately, it is unlikely that anyone at Capcom can pull it out, since Gaist Crusher, which tried to be a Level5 franchise, bombed horribly.
Obviously, it probably wouldn't have performed better if had been called Gaist Rockman. But trying to emulate EXE or Yokai Watch is the only way the franchise can ever become relevant again, though not to people of our generations.
Trying to cater to older players (or manchildren who couldn't outgrow how cool X and Zero were when they were 12) is only going to lead to another failure like Rockman Dash, that is going to be popular with a small circle of fans but that nobody will buy.
Going off on a tangent, but I've thought about this a lot - is it possible for Japanese game companies to come back to international relevance again? I can never think of a solution to this.

Over the past generation the Japanese video game industry has gone down so badly only the top percentile still hold relevance internationally. And even the top percentile don't look like they'll be able to hold much longer as more and

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


If you are talking about relevance in console games, Japan may never regain its position at the top that it held during the 80s and 90s, especially not in the US and the UK. But the problems plaguing the Japanese console industry are the problems plaguing the entire console industry.

Just look back on all those years of games journalists declaring "Japan is dead! Japan is irrelevant!" During that same time period many US companies folded, game budgets ballooned way out of hand ($40m average for a big title) and the bubble had to burst. There are lay offs everywhere.

And look at the majority of console games being released, they're by and large very formulaic. All the same complaints leveraged at Japan can be leveraged to the industry as a whole on a global scale.

If we look past console into mobile though, Japan is leading there. The Japanese mobile app market quietly surpassed the US market in overall revenue last year. Mobile games are simply way more profitable than console games, so (unfortunately if you hate freemium games) this is where more and more gaming companies are going to focus.

I used to get really bent out of shape over this, the perceived death of traditional console game. But I think mobile games are improving. Over the last year I've actually played lots of mobile games that I genuinely like. I think quality titles have a shot at standing out on mobile.

Also, maybe I should stop talking about Japanese and North American games as monolithic entities. Cos really I only care for a handful of developers from every country.

And in any case I don't think console games will ever die. I think they'll just remain a big industry in terms of revenue, but a niche industry in terms of participation. And it's always been like this. In their 4 decades of history consoles have never reached the same level of market saturation that smart phones achieved in just 2 years.






www.art-eater.com

Iggy
9778th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(3):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 07:34post reply

quote:
Going off on a tangent, but I've thought about this a lot - is it possible for Japanese game companies to come back to international relevance again? I can never think of a solution to this.
Before reading Nobi's answer above mine, I was about to answer "they will: most of them keep earning some money, so they just need to wait until the big US and EU company explode under the weight of their ballooning budget and unreachable day-1 expectations, and they'll go back to being on top for being the only game companies that haven't committed suicide by ubris".
Though when you look at SQEX...





Pollyanna
3663th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(4):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 08:28post reply

quote:
Going off on a tangent, but I've thought about this a lot - is it possible for Japanese game companies to come back to international relevance again? I can never think of a solution to this.

I'm constantly thinking about this, myself, usually with depressing results. I mostly agree with everything Nobi said, but he reminded me of the one thing that upsets me the most...
quote:
If you are talking about relevance in console games, Japan may never regain its position at the top that it held during the 80s and 90s, especially not in the US and the UK.

"Especially not in the US and the UK" isn't the biting problem for me so much as Japan's inability to sell games in their own country. Of course, their market is smaller in comparison to the western market, but even major console titles move pretty paltry numbers most of the time. If Japan can't even make successful console games for their own consumers, how can they make better games than westerners FOR westerners? The solution, I suppose would be to make better games, but I constantly see high quality Japanese titles passed over for less stellar western ones, because that's the taste of the audience.

How must Japanese developers feel, making games that can't move big numbers in their own country? How must they feel making a technically solid game that's misunderstood/poorly received when it comes to the west? Better just to make portable games with a manageable budget that can be supported by a relatively small market.

Given that Japanese console games are competing with (often excellent or superior) western games with the "home court advantage," I don't think that most Japanese games sell too poorly over here. Often, even seemingly niche titles move as much or more than they do in Japan, itself, so that's really all one can hope for.

The mobile app market is a complete disaster, though. There's no telling whatsoever what kind of title will sell or if quality is even a determining factor. There is so much shovelware that there's a good chance that any given title, no matter how great, will be tossed under the rug. You can see this reflected in the games that Japanese companies in particular put out, where the whole concept is "how can we monetize this" and "just make a bunch of stuff and see if something magically sticks."

Although I can hardly blame Japanese developers for feeling a bit lost, I think the most important thing they can focus on when it comes to console titles is not being confused. Whether they turn into big successes or not, their games need confidence and a clear vision. A lot of Capcom's recent efforts seem "confused" to me. Platinum does not make confused games. Nintendo does not make confused games. (Square-Enix often makes VERY confused games!) I think this sort of thing is the first step to restoring confidence in players and may help to dispel the stigma Japanese games have developed in the west. This of course, is no guarantee of success at all, but I do think "don't be confused" is an obvious general rule.

We're seeing a strong, emerging lower-budget market on portables and consoles alike, so I hope that Japanese developers can thrive in that field. Japanese consumers still need to embrace consoles and downloadable titles more for this to work, though. Really, developers have all my sympathy, as Japanese consumers constantly have me flipping tables when I look at sales numbers.

I had thought, when the WiiU was first announced, that it would be a good place for Japanese developers, because it would provide a lower-budget environment. When they were already struggling to make PS3/360 games in some cases, they could afford to release a game that would be too much of a risk on PS4. Although things may yet turn around for the WiiU, I see that my prediction was incredibly wrong, as the WiiU has almost no exclusive 3rd party support and the PS4 has embraced games of all budgets at all price points (very clever!).





I am undressed from 80’s style and recreated with modern sexy and beautiful style that amaze you and feel never been experienced world before.

nobinobita
1313th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(5):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 08:53:post reply

quote:
The mobile app market is a complete disaster, though. There's no telling whatsoever what kind of title will sell or if quality is even a determining factor. There is so much shovelware that there's a good chance that any given title, no matter how great, will be tossed under the rug. You can see this reflected in the games that Japanese companies in particular put out, where the whole concept is "how can we monetize this" and "just make a bunch of stuff and see if something magically sticks."


Companies like Gungho give me hope. Puzzle and Dragons is actually genuinely a pretty good game (good balance of luck and skill I think). And I really believe them when they say that they are people who truly love videogames. Why the hell else would they buy out Grasshopper Manufacture? As far as I know, none of Suda51's games have ever been big financial successes. Killer is Dead bombed especially hard.

But Gungho bought that team anyways, and they're letting them continue to make really bizarre games.

I think it's really cool that Grasshopper Manufacture will be given room to experiment (and possibly fail) on console while being buoyed by the success of freemium mobile games. Though i guess, relying on a benevolent billionaire to fund interesting games isn't really a sustainable strategy on a wider scale.

Also ... I think Let It Die is also freemium, so maybe this is all just a big experiment. In any case we'll get an individualistic game out of it.






www.art-eater.com

[this message was edited by nobinobita on Wed 25 Jun 08:55]

Maou
2661th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(4):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 10:52post reply

quote:
Companies like Gungho give me hope.
Heheh. I believe that may be the first time those words have been uttered on this earth. I seem to recall the verb "to Gungho" being a great running joke online for a time. Maybe things have changed, or they finally learned how to make a not-terrible Lunar port!
quote:
If Japan can't even make successful console games for their own consumers, how can they make better games than westerners FOR westerners?
Looking back, the sea change for me seems to have been the time of the shift in play styles in Japan and the new attention to consoles in the US. It's not hard for me to remember that up until the PS2/Xbox generation, American console games were all pretty terrible, and most creative output and profit for US companies was on the PC. Exceptions for sports games. Maybe it was a coincidence of timing, but I see Microsoft's entry into consoles as the time when Americans learned how to actually make console games that were good (to them), while at the same time, portable systems (GBA, DS) had evolved into something that everyone in Japan could use more easily (on trains, etc.) than consoles. Attitudes towards consoles moving in opposite directions, really, so I can't blame Japanese PS3 games for not selling in the US like Famicom games given that there were at that point enough games that matched the "standard" American taste that foreign titles appealed less, nor am I surprised that in Japan people simultaneously stopped needing consoles.





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

nobinobita
1314th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(5):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 11:46:post reply

quote:
Companies like Gungho give me hope. Heheh. I believe that may be the first time those words have been uttered on this earth. I seem to recall the verb "to Gungho" being a great running joke online for a time. Maybe things have changed, or they finally learned how to make a not-terrible Lunar port!
If Japan can't even make successful console games for their own consumers, how can they make better games than westerners FOR westerners?Looking back, the sea change for me seems to have been the time of the shift in play styles in Japan and the new attention to consoles in the US. It's not hard for me to remember that up until the PS2/Xbox generation, American console games were all pretty terrible, and most creative output and profit for US companies was on the PC. Exceptions for sports games. Maybe it was a coincidence of timing, but I see Microsoft's entry into consoles as the time when Americans learned how to actually make console games that were good (to them), while at the same time, portable systems (GBA, DS) had evolved into something that everyone in Japan could use more easily (on trains, etc.) than consoles. Attitudes towards consoles moving in opposite directions, really, so I can't blame Japanese PS3 games for not selling in the US like Famicom games given that there were at that point enough games that matched the "standard" American taste that foreign titles appealed less, nor am I surprised that in Japan people simultaneousl

-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --


The Xbox was a huge turning point to me. I think the sea change happened when American companies figured out that they're just much better at marketing games to Americans than Japanese companies could ever be.

This is gonna sound like a nutjob consipiracy theory, but I think there was a wide spread effort to make Japanese games seem foreign and lower quality in general in North America.

I remember the press becoming more and more xenophobic as the years rolled on. First it was the spread of terms like JRPG as a negative descriptor (which was weird cos Final Fantasy was what made RPGs in America mainstream in the first place). Around the time the 360 came out and games like Halo and GTA were best sellers, American games journalism really started trumpeting the death of Japanese gaming really hard.

Companies like Bioware started calling out Japanese games as being behind the times. The press backed them up. Soon many of my friends who grew up with the NES were on the bandwagon, turning their backs on the developers they love and calling out people who preferred Japanese games as Weeaboos (thanks 4chan!). I found it very strange.

Years later when I entered the video game industry I got to make some friends who'd been around since the Genesis days. They felt the waves of xenophobia internally.

When the Xbox was in development it was codenamed Project Midway, the battle that marked the turning point when the US gained the upperhand against Japan in WW2. People who complained that the Xbox controller was too clunky were dismissed as "small handers" (which was often said in a racially tinged way). Many of their older coworkers talked about how the rise of EA and Microsoft would signal a return to the "good old days" when Atari was the system of choice.

I have one friend who told me that Microsoft and EA sent out internal memos with instructions on how to position American made games as superior to Japanese. They'd flood the comments sections everywhere with comments to this end. I know this sounds crazy (and I sound crazy by extension), but these are things that perfectly reasonable people I've met working in games currently have told me.

It's kind of heartbreaking. To this day, I regularly hear fellow game developers say stuff like "this game is SO JAPANESE" as a negative. I have a friend who once almost refused to play a game because "asking the player to press start is so outdated and Japanese!" Often times, I've been accused of "only liking Japanese stuff" because I just don't like modern American console games that much. It's like i have to prove my patriotism by reminding people that I liked earlier PC games like Eye of the Beholder and Dark Sun Shattered Lands (which most young gamers don't know these days so TAKE THAT :P)

I suppose nationalism is to be expected of any country and any industry, but I still find it disturbing. But then I guess it's pretty weird that I put my own hobbies above my nationality.

Anyways, I realize I sound like a crazy person now, but I've been wanting to get this off my chest for a while. Feels good mang.






www.art-eater.com

[this message was edited by nobinobita on Wed 25 Jun 11:52]

Pollyanna
3664th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(6):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 12:08post reply

quote:
Then I await the coming of the "Street Fighter III" of hunting games.

Forgot to reply to this. That would mean a beautiful Monster Hunter sequel on new hardware with outstanding character animation, new and daring designs, few returning favorites, an interesting, but controversial new system and two expansions that hold up over time, but upon release leave people wondering if the hunting game trend is over with.

Yes. I want that. I want that maybe more than anything.

quote:

Companies like Gungho give me hope. Puzzle and Dragons is actually genuinely a pretty good game (good balance of luck and skill I think). And I really believe them when they say that they are people who truly love videogames. Why the hell else would they buy out Grasshopper Manufacture? As far as I know, none of Suda51's games have ever been big financial successes. Killer is Dead bombed especially hard.


I have no ill will towards Gungho and I agree that Puzzle and Dragon is good. I think it was a "right place at the right time" sort of thing, but the game is deserving of its success. Their other "P&D Type Title," Divine Gate, is respectable as well. The Grasshopper acquisition is good too, and I'm always happy when developers are given wiggle room for more risky titles with the money they make from safer ones.

However, to bring back the Street Fighter II analogy I used earlier, if we compare the (Japanese at least) mobile game market to the 90s fighting game market, Puzzle and Dragon is obviously SF2 and the hurricane of mediocre titles from other companies are the SNES fighting games from that era...only way more numerous and not nearly as good.

What I'm saying is that it's a little humorous to use P&D as an example of something good in a sea of crap, when it's at least partially responsible for said sea of crap.

quote:
Anyways, I realize I sound like a crazy person now, but I've been wanting to get this off my chest for a while. Feels good mang.

Thank you for sharing. A lot of Japanese developers are genuinely struggling now (by their own fault, I mean) and a lot of western developers are making excellent games, but the wave of negativity towards Japanese titles felt strange and uncalled for to me for quite some time. Thankfully, it seems to be dying down a bit, despite the fact that Japan isn't really making better games nor the west making worse ones (contributing to the theory that at least some of the hate may have been manufactured).

I still see a lot of western titles that irritate me or don't appeal to my sensibilities, but I play almost as many that I like, so...ehhhh...I don't want it to be at the cost of Japanese developers, but I'm happy western developers are putting out great stuff.





I am undressed from 80’s style and recreated with modern sexy and beautiful style that amaze you and feel never been experienced world before.

Karasu
1387th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: robotchris
XBL: robotchris
Wii: n/a

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(6):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 12:23post reply

Leave it to the Cafe to be discussing such meaty subjects when I'm away from my computer and as such have to type all this out of a phone keyboard. SIGH.

In any event: I think Capcom has the sort of confusion seen in quite a few game companies who used to be at the top, like Atari. They were great for an age but somehow can't adapt to the modern console gaming idiom. In a way, I don't want them to, since a lot of what sells on consoles these days are things I can't imagine Capcom making.

As far as Japan goes in general, I'm anxiously awaiting the day when small Japanese developers can grow in the way that indie developers have in the west. So much of the innovation these days is coming from tiny developers rather than bigger companies like Capcom-- clearly as budgets increase the chance of producing something edgy or weird drops off considerably.






www.secret-arts.com

nobinobita
1316th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Red Carpet Executive Member




""Re(6):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please."" , posted Wed 25 Jun 14:31:post reply

quote:
Then I await the coming of the "Street Fighter III" of hunting games.
Forgot to reply to this. That would mean a beautiful Monster Hunter sequel on new hardware with outstanding character animation, new and daring designs, few returning favorites, an interesting, but controversial new system and two expansions that hold up over time, but upon release leave people wondering if the hunting game trend is over with.

Yes. I want that. I want that maybe more than anything.


Dear lord, that sounds wonderful!

quote:
However, to bring back the Street Fighter II analogy I used earlier, if we compare the (Japanese at least) mobile game market to the 90s fighting game market, Puzzle and Dragon is obviously SF2 and the hurricane of mediocre titles from other companies are the SNES fighting games from that era...only way more numerous and not nearly as good.

What I'm saying is that it's a little humorous to use P&D as an example of something good in a sea of crap, when it's at least partially responsible for said sea of crap.


Hmmmm really good comparison! I never thought of it that way, but you're totally right, down to the part where both games are bringing in record breaking revenues and billion dollar + valuations for the company (and seas of clones).

There's tons of other lesser known titles I can cite as genuinely good mobile games. Perhaps this deserves its own thread ...

quote:
Thankfully, it seems to be dying down a bit, despite the fact that Japan isn't really making better games nor the west making worse ones (contributing to the theory that at least some of the hate may have been manufactured).

I still see a lot of western titles that irritate me or don't appeal to my sensibilities, but I play almost as many that I like, so...ehhhh...I don't want it to be at the cost of Japanese developers, but I'm happy western developers are putting out great stuff.


Yeah it's definitely died down over the years, which I'm very glad for. At the end of the day all that matters is that good games are still being made (all over the world now!)

quote:
As far as Japan goes in general, I'm anxiously awaiting the day when small Japanese developers can grow in the way that indie developers have in the west. So much of the innovation these days is coming from tiny developers rather than bigger companies like Capcom-- clearly as budgets increase the chance of producing something edgy or weird drops off considerably.


There's always been a really vibrant doujin game scene. I guess they've just never expected to actually make a living from it, as so many American developers are hoping to do (like you and me!). On the one hand it's really great to see people developing stuff purely out of passion. On the other hand I really wish they could work on these things full time. And on the (third?) hand, at least they've managed to avoid the current bubble of indie development that's build up in the US.

Still, I'm really glad that smaller Japanese teams are discovering things like Kickstarter and Steam as distribution and marketing platforms (even if they won't all make loads of dough). If we don't want our favorite kinds of games to die out, it's important to seek out the people who are still making them and support them.

(Hope you're having an awesome time in NZ! Drink an extra craft beer for me!)






www.art-eater.com

[this message was edited by nobinobita on Wed 25 Jun 14:37]

Zepy
1646th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member





"Re(7):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 15:18post reply

quote:
"Especially not in the US and the UK" isn't the biting problem for me so much as Japan's inability to sell games in their own country.

Yes! I missed conveying this point in my previous post but this worries me the most. It feels like they're building an entire generation of Japanese youths that are completely uninterested in console gaming.

Smartphone games in Japan just create the idea that people with money are the winners in life and there's nothing you can do to beat them.

quote:
This of course, is no guarantee of success at all, but I do think "don't be confused" is an obvious general rule

Just to add to this, I've noticed a number of Japanese developers have fallen into the trap where even though they have a clear focus, they become "too focused", as in they end up with a game that only a small segment of the market actually appreciates how good the game is.

Dragon's Crown as an example, the mechanics and the visuals are completely made for me and I love it to death. But it's just too focused on pleasing people like me that a lot of people are left behind, I literally have to selectively pick the people I want to recommend the game to, because I know a lot of people wouldn't appreciate the game even if I tried to get them into it.

It's kinda like how developers have constantly listened to the fans and kept improving their games to please the same fans, they're completely on track but they look back and realize they forgot about everyone else, but it's too late to turn back for the rest of them now.

quote:
A lot of Japanese developers are genuinely struggling now (by their own fault, I mean) and a lot of western developers are making excellent games, but the wave of negativity towards Japanese titles felt strange and uncalled for to me for quite some time. Thankfully, it seems to be dying down a bit, despite the fact that Japan isn't really making better games nor the west making worse ones (contributing to the theory that at least some of the hate may have been manufactured).

I actually think the biggest problem for a lot of Japanese developers is that they are terrible at marketing their games. They just don't know how to convey how fun their games are. Or in the absence of fun, how to just get people excited about their game.

In that sense I actually find that even indie developers can be better than big Japanese companies at conveying how fun their game is.

Western companies on the other hand are just brilliant at getting people excited about their game. I'm pretty sure they can make trash and still sell a million with just their marketing skills alone.





Karasu
1389th Post



user profileedit/delete message

PSN: robotchris
XBL: robotchris
Wii: n/a

Red Carpet Executive Member




"Re(7):" , posted Wed 25 Jun 15:24post reply

Haha, thanks Nobi, I'm having a fantastic beer from Invercargill as I type this!

Of course, doujin has always been a thing in Japan but like we've discussed before (and as you also point out) it's typically less about making money and more about some passionate obsessive/compulsive dude. An explosion of western style indie studios could be just what Japan needs. Or not, who can say?

As far as the Street Fighter II / Martial Champions comparison, it's a good point. My big problem with mobile games is that so many are very transparently cash grabs targeting gullible or compulsive people that it's hard for me to even attempt them, knowing that they're designed to extract cash for very little return. I'm only now trying Metal Slug Defense, after hearing people here gush about it. Granted, my cherished nostalgic favorites from 90's arcade could be considered the same, but I feel as though they rewarded skill in a way that a lot of FTP mobile stuff can't even come close to.






www.secret-arts.com

Spoon
2620th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(7):Re(10):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Wed 25 Jun 15:56post reply

quote:
Japan conspiracy theory


It's honestly not that far-fetched when you consider that the consoles and the makers of console games were so strongly tied to Japan, even though it'd be really hard to describe all the things that make a game immediately and idiosyncratically Japanese. The industry was hegemonically Japanese. The only successful consoles of the post-NES revival pre-Xbox were Japanese. The vast majority of the biggest console successes were Japanese.

The question for me is whether it was a conspiracy that was intentionally perpetuated by the media, or if it was an argument that once broached other developers latched on to because it was a convenient angle for sounding at once differentiated as well as against-the-grain/cutting edge/new/etc. Japanese games were the establishment, and what better angle is there for breaking into a market than being anti-establishment?

I actually don't know how AAA console game development is sustained in Japan. If breaking 1M is a requisite to recoup investment, games which have the bulk of their sales in the Japanese market sound like an extremely small, select group. That doesn't sound so very different from the USA, but I imagine that the population of the USA being nearly triple that of Japan's (whether or not console penetration is an equal percentage for these two populations is another question, though) is at least of some benefit. THQ's implosion and the subsequent sinking of all the studios that were developing/being published by it was probably the grimmest reminder of the volatility of the AAA game market, even if some argue that the quality of THQ's titles were more AA than AAA.

What I wonder is how mainstream tastes in mobile and in console are evolving or if they can be re-tailored. People are so used to having and playing video games now that there ought to be some increase in standards (in spite of all kinds of anecdotal evidence otherwise). Blockbuster productions of enormous scope are mainstream. There's certainly a video game hipsterism that you can find in all kinds of urban areas, but I'm waiting to see if games (like food!) through a combination of increasing awareness and increasing discernment (if only incremental) in consumers results in increased appreciation for both well-crafted games and new game flavors.





Mosquiton
2009th Post



user profileedit/delete message

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master





"Re(9):Capcom-mon sense, please." , posted Thu 26 Jun 13:20:post reply

quote:
But nobody needs a journalism degree to look at Capcom's recent history and say "Huh, Capcom isn't in such great shape these days are they."
But even that is not as self-evident as the current trends could lead us to believe. To quote Chaz,
2011 +¥8B profit
2012 +¥7B profit
2013 +¥3B profit
2014 +¥3B profit
I know a lot of companies would like to be in such "not great shape". Hell, I would be fine with being in such a not a great shape as well personally!
I stand with my opinion from earlier in the thread that Capcom is not a desirable acquisition for many companies, but I don't think they are in any worse shape than most other game companies to begin with.



If only all that money added up to a great company. As it is they're not pleasing anyone.

I don't think the shareholders would disagree with me, greedy scum that they are, if I'd only been talking about financial matters... but would you believe that I actually meant not in great shape creatively? Because that's honestly what I meant. Capcom is struggling whether they're making a profit or not and I think it's been widely observed in this very cafe.

I think many of the "games journalists" writing these articles are just Capcom fans who miss the old days, or are at least writing to the (correct) perception that people who grew up with games miss the old Capcom and would like to think that someone could come in and fix it. And I sympathize.

But like everyone else I lament the lack of fact checking, wild speculation, and the generally sorry state of reporting in general. It's really just emotional, sensational, reactionary, and isn't very useful to anyone. I think all of the smart/cool kids go to Gamasutra for this sort of thing, but they can't control the narrative like the popular blog/news sites can.

So the last thing I want to say here is that I don't personally measure a game company's success by their profits. Of course they need to stay solvent, of course they need to be able to afford to take risks. But what is Capcom doing with all those yen, exactly?

If they keep going the way they're going honestly I wouldn't care if they ceased to exist. EDIT: ALMOST wouldn't care.





/ / /

[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Thu 26 Jun 14:08]