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| Toxico 5154th Post
  
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|  "Re(1):Random thread, random edition" , posted Tue 12 Oct 04:47  
quote:
Thought 2:
I've been looking at some Korean manwha lately, and an interesting thing is that among the English translated ones which were originally webcomics, they are presented without pagination. They just flow along in one long scroll-like thing. Is this a common method of presentation for Asian webcomics in general, or is it something more regional in its use?
The few jp web comics I read are in normal page size format (this is also so since they might be printed and sold as tankoubons). Korean web comics already "charge" and "make money" by browsing them through their official sites (it's similar to what the new Taito system is trying to achieve); I suppose that it's thanks to that that authors don't feel the need of publishing (thus, arranging things in regular page format)....
And to be honest, after checking a large quantity of Korean manwha up, I can confidently they are all mostly incredibly dull, uninspired and boring  (it's like... MTV executives playing alternative band or something, everything is just wrong and doesn't join up properly).
The only series that I have absolutely no qualms for and that I think that it's just totally awesome is Pink Lady... It's the story of some art students that bump up into each other and just rub each other on the worst way possible (though, unknown to them they do share a common background). The series itself utilize many references to art, expression and usage of colors. The good thing is that while reading it you realize that the author does indeed care about usage of colors and brightness to tell the story; you can see him doing what he preaches (it's not like "Beck", where they tell you that they have the potential to be a legendary world success quality band, but that storyline illusion is simply dispelled once you heard them play, har har).
Anyway, it's though luck to follow that story if you can't read it in korean; the author in person requested the scanlation groups to drop off the series (as scanlations are "free" and korean online web hosted sites do pay him a fee for his works he wasn't pleased with them). If Nobi is reading this, he should check it up, har har hardy har 
目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
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| karasu99 447th Post
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|  "Re(4):Random thread, random edition" , posted Wed 13 Oct 08:45
quote:
You know what time is it? Right? Most certainly we must do our best to uphold our traditions
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
LOS has the worst Castlevania ending EVER
Between the 4 hour delay for the World of Warcraft patch and this news, I am very very sad.
Ohoho, I actually made the decision to purchase this today, after realizing I had played through the stupidly short demo version (especially given the size of the damned thing) three times.
I can't say I'll really be playing it for the ending though.
Hum, I had planned on making a new thread to discuss it, but here is good enough-- hopefully I won't be the only one talking about it? I'm still not sure what I think of the reboot, but I found it to be a really enjoyable game. It's atmospheric in the same ways that I always think games in this series need to be. The colors and the enemy design, and the 'old book' gimmick for the pause menu are all really attractive, although Gabriel's design isn't my favorite.
Granted I've only played the first few scenes, but this is the first game I've had this kind of enjoyment of in a while. This and Vanquish, that is-- October is going to be a busy game month for me. And I was totally expecting to dislike it because it was billed as a reboot of That Series. How shallow can I possibly be?
Someone else talk now.
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| nobinobita 825th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(2):Random thread, random edition" , posted Wed 13 Oct 15:25
quote:
The only series that I have absolutely no qualms for and that I think that it's just totally awesome is Pink Lady... It's the story of some art students that bump up into each other and just rub each other on the worst way possible (though, unknown to them they do share a common background). The series itself utilize many refe
Thanks for the recommendation! This series looks interesting. It has very nice colors and a drawing style that's somwhere between a shoujo manga (proportions) and an RPG (rendering style). Alot of newer East Asian comics seem to have a similar approach. Another interesting thing is that the characters are drawn on layers, and it looks like there's a base male and female body, again, kind of like a video game. I wonder if that's the artist's background (I've been doing templated avatar stuff all month so it really stuck out to me).
Here's a link to my favorite Korean comic:
http://izismile.com/2010/06/07/funny_korean_comic_strips_41_pics.html
The name of the comic and the artist elude me right now, but I was able to instantly find it by googling "funny korean webcomic".
There was another non humorous, completely serious Korean web comic that I used to follow that was about the 1001 Nights. Dang, it was really good. Now I gotta go search for it.
In any case, the 1001 Nights comic had a linear narrative and it was told one panel at a time in the same vertical format as most gag comics. This seems to be pretty standard for Korean web comics, probably because most gag strips in Asia are vertically oriented (not horizontal like American funnies).
www.art-eater.com
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| karasu99 449th Post
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| "Re(5):Random thread, random edition" , posted Thu 14 Oct 03:43
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In game related news the zombie trend in both Yakuza and Red Dead Redemption is something I want to see continue. Since zombies don't think they must be the easiest game antagonists in the world to program. Because of how easy it is to whip up a big, dumb mob of zombies I want to see more zombie content added into non-zombie games. Will the girls in a dating simulator love you more if you rescue them from zombies? Can Sonic find new ways to disappoint fans when he faces the zombie hordes? The possibilities are endless.
Guwah, I'm really a little put off by the constant stream of zombies in games lately. I think they've joined ninjas as one of those kitschy game elements that tons of developers keep throwing into their games when they can't think of a better choice. After all, zombies SELL!
Unfortunately, the presence of zombies in so many games of late that don't actually require them for gameplay reasons has started to turn me off on games that kind of require them, like Dead Rising 2.
Don't get me wrong, I like zombies (and ninjas, of course!) in games, but Red Dead Redemption? What the hell? Yakuza? Huh? Zombies are such an easy gimmick that it's like these guys are just phoning it in.
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| Toxico 5161th Post
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| "Re(8):Re(10):Random thread undead edition" , posted Tue 19 Oct 17:04
quote:
I remember reading here some reaction on Ryu ga Gotoku 3's censorship and lacking US edition, but I'm relieve to see that the western edition of "Yakuza 4" will also have 5 mini games and 22 sub-stories cut "for faster translation".
I was planning to advertise Yakuza 3 to Ishmael with something in the lines of "I know we all miss playing slow motion pin pon with super models in an onsen, but that's not enough to pass on playing golf with congressmen and punching american politics in the face", and then Sega goes and rains on my parade with.... This. Certainly, Sega is behaving like this little stupid dirty kid that promises not to steal again, but manages to go astray as soon as a chance pops up....
On unrelated news, we already know where SNK is going to publish that third party flying shooting witches eroge game. From the looks of it, It's going to be an xbald live exclusive title... In a sense, I kinda miss the times where shows like Votoms where on season and we didn't had to stand any self angst powered pacifist bishie, no kuro loli and certainly not any stupid singer acting like if they are important.
目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
Update 22 as of 27/08/10 (Temporary mega upload link).
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Last update : Chapter 21 as of 15/10/10
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| Pollyanna 2970th Post
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| "Re(5):Aereal eroge...." , posted Mon 25 Oct 20:37
quote:
It's all about attitude. Games like Cotton and Keio Flying Squadron (a game about a loli in a bunny outfit) don't feel dirty because they are more cute than overtly sexual and are all about personality. Games like Touhou are about extreme objectification. Less about story, more about concept and aesthetic. Heck, aren't the characters in Touhou literally objects and concepts, storywise?
This hurts my heart! What's dirty about Touhou!? That's like calling a Ghibli movie "pedo" because it has little girls in it. Do you play the games? They're like children's stories! I don't care what the doujinshi crowd does with the series...to me, Touhou is a character-driven fairytale. I probably have as many favorite Touhou characters as I have favorite characters from other things combined. I can't say the story to every game is great, but most of them are charming in a Japanese fairytale kind of way.
I mean, like a fairytale, each game is very concept-driven, as are the characters, but I can't see how a shooting game with SO MUCH DIALOGUE could not be seen as character-driven on some level.
I can certainly see Touhou as "guilty by association", but that's like calling Sonic the Hedgehog furry porn.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| sfried 587th Post
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| "Re(6):A confession..." , posted Tue 26 Oct 15:17:
quote:
This hurts my heart! What's dirty about Touhou!? That's like calling a Ghibli movie "pedo" because it has little girls in it. Do you play the games? They're like children's stories! I don't care what the doujinshi crowd does with the series...to me, Touhou is a character-driven fairytale. I probably have as many favorite Touhou characters as I have favorite characters from other things combined. I can't say the story to every game is great, but most of them are charming in a Japanese fairytale kind of way.
I mean, like a fairytale, each game is very concept-driven, as are the characters, but I can't see how a shooting game with SO MUCH DIALOGUE could not be seen as character-driven on some level.
Trust me, I tried real hard to like the series. I really did. And the dialogue...doesn't make much sense at all quite frankly! I just don't find the games...that...much...fun, despite the difficulty. In fact, it might be because of this that I feel I am rewarded with so little for so much effort.
quote:
I can certainly see Touhou as "guilty by association", but that's like calling Sonic the Hedgehog furry porn.
But isn't that not much of a stretch?
Edit: Okay, rather than leave myself unexpressed with my dissonance with the franchise, I've decided to just copy-and-paste a private message I've sent in the past to one of the toastyfrog talkingtime Touhou fans, slightly abridged to remove much of my ranting towards the fanbase:
quote:
Putting the fanbase aside, rarely do I see the games try to diverge from the formula, and it automatically assumes you have played tons of bullethell shooters, as if they had no considerations given to those even new to the franchise. Even on the easiest level, they force you to weave through a barrage without first teaching you the basic principles of just dodging. (You don't slowly work your way through smaller gaps while given allowance spaces with safe "spray-free" areas such as in games like Under Defeat and DoDonPachi.) In short, it feels you have to work for these games in order for you to just remotely appreciate it, and most of that has to do with the scoring, which you probably wouldn't even care in the first place if it still hasn't hooked you. In the case of the latter part, the fans are very quick to see past the blemishes and obvious flaws that stick out in the games.
Going back to Space Invaders Extreme, for example: The first level introduces you to the power-up system. The next level has Invaders that deflect certain kinds of power ups, then later level introduce Giant Invaders, Kamikaze types, and so forth. While you might say Touhou shuffles its variety in its bosses similarly to SIE, it does so at the expence of the players patience, which is in this case, the main levels: There is none of the enemy variety I've just mentioned in Touhou. You fight hordes of faries in different formations, that's it (aside from the occassional snowflake or book). At least with SIE, even the enemies start to break up the pace, not to mention even make the player stop mashing the fire button for a moment, unlike the typical fairy fodder you find in games such as Imperishable Night and Embodiment of Scarlet Devil. The only satisfaction that you can get out of this game is from the bosses (and if you're like others, the story), but it's feels like so much work for such little reward. Unless you are playing for score, Touhou has nothing to offer in terms of normal, non-fandom-based enjoyment. It's non-pornographic porn. Fanservice at its very core, backed up by a score system that tries to heavy-handedly justify its own existence.
I'm not even going to go to the Touhou hijackers in certain web forums...but I'm pretty sure you know where I'm coming from.
And while I admit Touhou is not the only franchise out there that relies heavily on pandering to its "base" (Milestone shooters certainly count as well!), it is by far the most popular and also an example when a fanbase leads what a game series should entail, which brings us back to Sonic...wait, what?
tl;dr - The series is too insular. I know I will get strong disagreements if not the eponymous "Easy Mode" meme as a response.
[this message was edited by sfried on Tue 26 Oct 15:32] |
| Nobinobita 837th Post
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| "Re(6):Aereal eroge...." , posted Tue 26 Oct 17:17:
quote:
This hurts my heart! What's dirty about Touhou!? That's like calling a Ghibli movie "pedo" because it has little girls in it. Do you play the games? They're like children's stories! I don't care what the doujinshi crowd does with the series...to me, Touhou is a character-driven fairytale. I probably have as many favorite Touhou characters as I have favorite characters from other things combined. I can't say the story to every game is great, but most of them are charming in a Japanese fairytale kind of way.
I mean, like a fairytale, each game is very concept-driven, as are the characters, but I can't see how a shooting game with SO MUCH DIALOGUE could not be seen as character-driven on some level.
I can certainly see Touhou as "guilty by association", but that's like calling Sonic the Hedgehog furry porn.
My deepest apologies. I certainly didn't mean to distress you Polly. I am definitely speaking as an outsider giving very shallow, quick impressions.
Please allow me to clarify a few things and expand my stance a bit.
I was basing my comments on the visual presentation of each game and the attitude I get from them. Cotton and Keio Flying Squadron are very directly descended from traditional early 90s anime (I wonder if Gainax did the Keio intro). Touhou is very much a dojin game for our times. There's alot of overlap between these two, and by god, I'd love to go into a long discussion about how Keio is very prescient of dominant trends in the last 15 years of dojin art (I bet Haradaya really liked that game, or at least the school of art that it came from)... but I will try to stay focused.
Cotton and Keio Flying squadron are pretty representative of pre moe Japanese cartoon esthetics. Touhou is very post moe (though I wouldn't necessarily call it moe). The main difference is that Cotton and Keio's designs are focused on conveying broad personalities in a silly light hearted world. There's certainly sex appeal in those titles, but it's not the primary focus. Touhou is utterly concerned with beauty in every visual facet (which for some people, also means sex appeal, but this does not make Touhou dirty).
This is what I mean by objectification. Please understand that I don't consider objectification to be inherently negative. I think objectifying something is one of the most personal things anyone can do, because it requires you to draw on very deep, honest aspects of your personality. Touhou's characters are all beautiful and idealized, perhaps even fetishized. I believe they are meant to inspire a feeling of wanting to possess them, or wanting to be them (quite like a fairy tale). I'm sure alot of thought and passion went into creating the characters, their personalities, the setting, the games. I have a deep amount of respect for projects like Touhou. I believe they are every bit as personally meaningful as an indie game like Braid, which gets alot of acclaim for presenting a more easy to digest dramatic tone. I love the doujinshi scene in Japan. I really do. Even the weird gross stuff. I like how so much of it is about indulging in the most basic and private desires of the author with a total disregard for social posturing. I enjoy the indulgence, because it is honest. And I think that's what turns alot of people off to games like Touhou. They're exceptionally indulgent and uncomfortably, unabashedly honest and self absorbed.
That's the point I was driving at, with these meandering paragraphs. Touhou is representative of the last decade's trend towards indulgence in Japanese manga culture (I am using Manga as a catchall term for games, comics, illustrations, anime etc). Extreme indulgence, which can also be perceived as pandering to a niche, is probably the main divider between what people consider classic and new manga culture. Touhou is just one convenient example.
If you've read this far, thank you for indulging me in my musings!
*edit*
Just read Sfried's above post. It seems the gameplay is also extremely indulgent.
:D
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by Nobinobita on Tue 26 Oct 17:25] |
| KTallguy 1266th Post
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| "Re(8):Aereal eroge...." , posted Wed 27 Oct 11:23
quote:
When does a product go from being an expression of the creator's personal vision to being hermetically sealed in it's own quirks, references, and fetishes? Nobinobita is quite right in noting that this preaching to the masses mentality has been found in sections of Japanese pop culture for years now. Are the complaints about these aspects a sign that this trend has run its course or it is a symptom of a deeper problem? Is the rumor that Toriyama is returning to Dragon Ball a sign that the pendulum is swinging back to more populist fare or is it yet more pandering?
I think it's the right of every artist to indulge themselves in any and every way they desire. Art is personal and should not be specifically catered to any audience really.
But recently there's very little coming out of Japan that I can relate to any more. Walking down the streets of Akihabara or DenDen Town, I just see tons of Moe-Kei anime and manga, and that's about it. I recently saw Redline, a glorious throwback to the anime I enjoyed 10+ years ago, but those kinds of once mainstream projects are now completely niche. There were less than 15 people in the theater in Osaka (it was a 9PM showing though).
This trend has also made its way into games, obviously. Companies that have been squeezed out of major markets like SNKP will mainly publish niche, "image" focused games with little to no mass appeal, even in their own countries.
Then bigger companies like Sega and Capcom trying to make their games as completely western as possible, to the point where the Japanese artists aren't even expressing themselves anymore, and the products have no appeal in their country of origin.
I guess this is just following market trends, but as a result, Japan's cultural relevancy abroad has started to fade. At least in terms of animation, comics, and games.
It's kind of a shame, because part of what fueled Japan's confidence is the export of their unique media culture, and if they focus too much on westernizing things, they'll lose that Japanese touch... but if the Japanese touch has focused on little girl exploitation, then it's better to not export it in the first place.
Maybe I'm off base, but that's just my impression.
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| sfried 587th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(9):Aereal eroge...." , posted Wed 27 Oct 15:05
quote:
But recently there's very little coming out of Japan that I can relate to any more. Walking down the streets of Akihabara or DenDen Town, I just see tons of Moe-Kei anime and manga, and that's about it. I recently saw Redline, a glorious throwback to the anime I enjoyed 10+ years ago, but those kinds of once mainstream projects are now completely niche. There were less than 15 people in the theater in Osaka (it was a 9PM showing though).
I think this is what I exactly feel about most Japanese media in particular. Most of the subject matter now highlighted is stuff geared toward otaku, and while there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, why does everything need to be so fetishistic to the point of ridiculousness? What happened to stories about personal hardships I can relate to in real life? What about more interesting subject matter other than little girls? Why is everything set to be an escapism?
Dai Sato is correct in this regard, because with all of the progress Japanese animation has advanced in, very little is done in comparison to to push the medium to its potential. The loss of Satoshi Kon is quite a blow, too. The number of daring works seems to have minimized. In fact, I'd say its like their animation industry is facing the same dilema as the videogame industry would have over the past year, only their markets still play it way too safe.
quote:
It's kind of a shame, because part of what fueled Japan's confidence is the export of their unique media culture, and if they focus too much on westernizing things, they'll lose that Japanese touch... but if the Japanese touch has focused on little girl exploitation, then it's better to not export it in the first place.
There's the saying Japan has always been a little-bit perverted (a really bad stereotype, I know), but much of the stuff made nowdays is rather shameless. Back then they always balanced fanservice with a modestly detailed plot and themes with an interesting universe coupled to serious issues that somehow paralled real-life dillemas. Now its just recycled emotional rollercoasters in/or a fantasy settings.
Part of what fueled Japan's confidence was their uniqueness in the medium's field, but now they're just making a caricature out of themselves by recycling formulas way too much to the point of predictability and unbelievability. I know you could argue the same for Hollywood and that they only survive because they cater to the lowest common denominator, but the extreme opposite is also just as bad.
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| Pollyanna 2971th Post
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| "Re(10):Aereal eroge...." , posted Wed 27 Oct 19:12
I'm very tired, but I want to reply as best I can...
On anime/moe:
quote:
Walking down the streets of Akihabara or DenDen Town, I just see tons of Moe-Kei anime and manga, and that's about it. I recently saw Redline, a glorious throwback to the anime I enjoyed 10+ years ago, but those kinds of once mainstream projects are now completely niche.
The moe boom is totally annoying, I agree...and when it comes to anime, the otaku culture barks loudly. You don't see as much of the niche titles on the surface because they're niche. Still, I can think of more interesting, artsy, or just plain enjoyable anime in the last 10 years than in the 30 before it.
When disgruntled fans say they don't watch moe shows, I want to ask "what shows HAVE you watched?" And if they haven't watched much, is it fair to form a negative opinion?
This is only somewhat related, but I remember crying unexpectedly when I was watching Yojouhan (Tatami Galaxy). I was strangely touched by nothing in particular. I just thought to myself "this is what animation is about! You can do anything! You can express yourself in ways that you can't with any other medium. Why can't more people aim for this?"
On Touhou:
quote:
Trust me, I tried real hard to like the series. I really did. And the dialogue...doesn't make much sense at all quite frankly! I just don't find the games...that...much...fun, despite the difficulty. In fact, it might be because of this that I feel I am rewarded with so little for so much effort.
The dialogue in Touhou makes your brain work. Sometimes because it's clever, sometimes because it's hard to translate and sometimes because it just isn't written that well. I like it because it's unique, though...and when it's funny, it really makes me laugh. Certainly an acquired taste.
You're absolutely right about the games being sort of "inbred" in their fandom and difficulty, though. I don't see it as different than most other shooters in that respect, though. I've had the fortune of playing fighting games for as long as they've been around...and shooters just as long, but somewhere down the line, shooters took a turn toward the elite and I couldn't keep up. Maybe it's when they stopped being big sellers and started being an otaku thing.
Anyway, in terms of shooters, I find the Touhou games fairly manageable. The lack of immediate, unlimited continues gives me something other than intrinsic motivation to keep me going. However, as you've mentioned before, some of the games have totally ridiculous rules to figure out (Imperishable Night) or are completely unreasonable on normal difficulty (UFO). Subterranean Animism on easy seems about right to me. If I recommend a game to someone, it's usually Mountain of Faith which (EXCLUDING THE LAST BOSS!) is perfectly fair on normal and does not have any ridiculous rules. I love that one of the difficulty options (I forgot which game it's in) is "for people with busy lives."
I don't mean to say that I disagree with your complaints...just that they don't bug me. I have been completely unsuccessful in getting anyone I know to enjoy a Touhou game. It's clearly a love or hate thing. But seeing that the games are made by one person, indulging his likes, I tend to be more forgiving. In that respect, I feel like the games aren't specifically pandering to the base, so much as the creator.
But of course, if you took out the themes and the characters and the music and left me ONLY with the shooting, I would probably feel like you..."rewarded with so little for so much effort."
What are some of your favorite shooters? I really WANT to love more shooting games, but modern ones are too difficult for me. The only Cave shooter I've been able to play without dying excessively is Guwange.
Chop chop chop on Nobi's passage...
quote:
And I think that's what turns alot of people off to games like Touhou. They're exceptionally indulgent and uncomfortably, unabashedly honest and self absorbed.
I put two and two together on what you said, when the answer exactly wasn't four. Ah, meaning, you said that Keio and Cotton weren't dirty or overtly sexual, then you mentioned Touhou...in my head, like you were saying IT was overtly sexual.
But I agree with everything you said. The quoted passage in particular. I remember a quote from the creator about the music...which is insanely popular (there must be thousands of remix albums by now). Someone asked how he composed it, and he said something like "I just think of the characters and make a song".
The feeling of "I'm just doing what I want to do" is evident in the games, but thankfully, I feel like what the creator wants to do is worthwhile, and unlike so many other doujinshi creators, he actually pulls it off. Still, if you're not on the same wavelength, it can be off-putting. I remember that I avoided Touhou for years because I thought it was " just some otaku thing."
I'm sorry I can't give your thoughtful reply a thoughtful reply of my own, but I've been working without break (until now) since I woke up and it is now 5:00 AM. I'd better call it a day.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| KTallguy 1267th Post
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| "Re(2):Re(10):Aereal eroge...." , posted Thu 28 Oct 10:29
quote:
When disgruntled fans say they don't watch moe shows, I want to ask "what shows HAVE you watched?" And if they haven't watched much, is it fair to form a negative opinion?
Your right, part of it is that I haven't watched enough moe animation to really judge. I know that a lot of the series are good at poking fun at the trends and have deeper plots than they let on, but the atmosphere has to grab me too right?
With the internet, games, books, other hobbies, there is just too much stuff out there. And things generally cost money too (they should, anyway). It makes it difficult to give anything the benefit of the doubt anymore.
quote:
This is only somewhat related, but I remember crying unexpectedly when I was watching Yojouhan (Tatami Galaxy). I was strangely touched by nothing in particular. I just thought to myself "this is what animation is about! You can do anything! You can express yourself in ways that you can't with any other medium. Why can't more people aim for this?"
I'm 100% in favor for artsy stuff like this.
Animation is an amazing medium. I think we all know that :)
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| Professor 2845th Post
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| "Re(2):Random thread, random edition" , posted Sat 30 Oct 02:53:
Keiji Inafune is quitting Capcom tomorrow. That's a bit of a surprise.
A long, long read in Japanese
A few of the things he says in the interview
-He's quitting because he thinks he needs to change the Japanese game industry that's losing its agressiveness; with Capcom, the higher ups aren't rewarding diligent developers though they get punished for failure, and since the execs don't have any reason to be agressive since they're already at the top position of their company, as a result, everyone ends up just doing their chores like a regular salary worker.
- He knew that the execs wouldn't understand when he explained his reasons, but what was shocking to him was that the development staffs also didn't seem to understand.
- The execs don't know anything about videogames but they also don't trust the developers to think on their own.
- None of the other execs stopped him when he said he'll quit, and they vetoed him when he said he still wants to help out and make games for Capcom after he makes his own studio
- 700 developers at Capcom and they make around 4 titles in-house, meaning about 170 workers alloted per game. Very inefficient. No efforts are being made to improve this.
- Resident Evil and Monster hunter are the only in-house developments that are succeeding. The other titles like SF4, MVC3, Dead Rising are all outsourced.
- Dead Rising only had 7 Capcom staffs working with the outsourced studio(s). Or in other words, they can make a Capcom-flavored game with under 10 in-house staff. He says Capcom should halve their in-house staff to about 400 so they can keep making the hit titles in-house and outsource the rest.
- He says Overseas studios are better for outsourcing because they're more skilled than those in Japan. Unlike in Japan the workers are constantly competing because it reflects on their status; those at the bottom of the company are like slaves that can be laid off at any time.
- He also says that the overseas studios usually lack in ideas and concepts so that's where people like him come to place. However, he also notes that overseas games are better than Japanese titles right now.
-He also notes that he was the only person in Capcom to use overseas studios.
- He says Schedule and quality control management is an issue wither it's an overseas publisher or domestic.
-He says that as an exec, it was frustrating to have to constantly fight with figures and hold back on things he really wanted to do. Now he won't have to hold back.
[this message was edited by Professor on Sat 30 Oct 03:31] |
| Pollyanna 2972th Post
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| "Re(3):Re(10):Aereal eroge/Cute-Em-Ups" , posted Sat 30 Oct 06:17
quote:
What are some of your favorite shooters? I really WANT to love more shooting games, but modern ones are too difficult for me. The only Cave shooter I've been able to play without dying excessively is Guwange.Under Defeat was really nice and felt really good. I also like Kenta Cho's stuff, and highly recommend Blast Works if you could find it in a store (Tsukimi Fighters has a nice feel to it).
Admittedly I like the minimalistic style of Warning Forever. Once I figured out how to customize the soundtrack, it became a nice stress reliever.
I also love R-Type 3: The Third Lighting. I would actually recommend this game to you since it has Unlimited Continues (but your score does get reset).
On the side note, going back the the topic of "Aereal eroge", I liked Magical Chase and its "pseudo successor" Trouble Witches. I know it's a Kirbyfied Wings/Lords of Thunder (because of the shopkeepers), but it did put the collectables to use for something other than just points since you could buy upgrades.
Thanks for the list. I had wanted to try Under Defeat for a while, but never got around to it.
I think there was a misunderstanding, though...unlimited continues are NOT a good thing to me. Score is so insignificant that I don't even notice it. Unlike someone who is really into shooting games, I just want a challenge that ends with me winning the game.If I can just endlessly continue on the spot until I win, I'm not motivated to play at all. I'm very bad with intrinsic motivation. (I had intended to post something about this in your thread on difficulty, but never got around to it)
Limited continues are best, though I don't mind unlimited as long as each stage is challenging enough that it's hard enough to clear it in one shot. Some Touhou games are like that, where it might actually be smarter to start over and try to tackle a level after building up lives on the previous levels (instead of just continuing).
quote:
There was an extremely tiny mention of this a few days ago, but now we have some real screenshots of Persona 2 Innocent Sin for PSP. Given that P1 and P3 both made it outside of Japan (and both did quite well it seems), I can't imagine Atlus won't release in the US.
And here's the opening. Worth watching even if you're not a fan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkQUnth9vV4
I had hoped they would do something that mixed in the piano piece from the original opening, but seeing how much effort they put into it, I can't complain.
On anime...
quote:
Your right, part of it is that I haven't watched enough moe animation to really judge. I know that a lot of the series are good at poking fun at the trends and have deeper plots than they let on, but the atmosphere has to grab me too right?
I meant watching NON moe anime. I mean, I guess some moe anime might be okay...Higurashi is reasonably interesting, despite looking so awful. It at least has moe girls getting beat to death with baseball bats and having their fingernails ripped off one by one. I can't say Clannad is bad, even if it's not for me, and I enjoy K-on, probably because I play in a band that does more screwing around than actually playing.
But what I meant were all the shows that AREN'T moe that are good. I don't usually watch moe shows, myself. I'm saying people who complain about "there being nothing but moe shows" don't watch the NON moe shows, either. I believe there are a huge number of incredibly terrible shows out there, but comparatively more good ones than before.
On Inafune
quote:
-He's quitting because he thinks he needs to change the Japanese game industry that's losing its agressiveness; with Capcom, the higher ups aren't rewarding diligent developers though they get punished for failure, and since the execs don't have any reason to be agressive since they're already at the top position of their company, as a result, everyone ends up just doing their chores like a regular salary worker.
- He knew that the execs wouldn't understand when he explained his reasons, but what was shocking to him was that the development staffs also didn't seem to understand.
- The execs don't know anything about videogames but they also don't trust the developers to think on their own.
I was pretty "meh" about Inafune leaving. I thought "well, it's inevitable", but hearing this makes me sick. This is exactly the experience that I've had with game companies (or any company, really).
There's some idiot on top that has a vague notion of what they want to have done, hire people to do it, then do everything they can to keep those people from doing their job properly. Weighed down by vague and nonsensical decisions made by someone grasping for straws, developers are juggled between "you figure it out" and "that's not what I wanted" until they have no idea what they're doing anymore. The end result, is either a "too many cooks in the kitchen" scenario, or a watered down "just get it done" product.
That's an extreme example and of course, there are a lot more factors that go into production, but I'm sure some level of this goes on almost everywhere.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| Maou 2108th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Inafune" , posted Sat 30 Oct 11:12:
quote:
There's some idiot on top that has a vague notion of what they want to have done, hire people to do it, then do everything they can to keep those people from doing their job properly. Weighed down by vague and nonsensical decisions made by someone grasping for straws
Phew, those were heavy words to read in Inafune's blog, even without the longer article. Polly's comment frankly describes most "management" as it exists in many places, Japan, US, or elsewhere. One of the nicer things about the Silicon Valley scene at least may be that some level of horizontality exists in companies, from what I understand; "upper management" and professional CEOs are almost by definition worthless given 99% of the human population's inability to manage people in an office and near-total ignorance of management theory and teambuilding. Most managers have never been taught to manage. (This makes the American mantra/obsession with business leadership all the more grating to listen to.) I remember reading some management theory and also "The Five Dysfunctions of a Team" for a civil service examination at one point and constantly thinking, "Wow, the people who were managing where I worked previously were awful given what could have been!"
Suffice to say, I hope Inafune can save the world with a small and dynamic company of people who actually know what's going on.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 30 Oct 11:24] |
| Pollyanna 2973th Post
PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Re(10):Aereal eroge/Cute-Em-Ups" , posted Sat 30 Oct 11:25
quote:
These exact same games also irritate me, because all that they do is introduce a self-imposed challenge while removing any sense of reward rather than give a player incentive to move forward and improve. In short, it demoralizes you for not being "exactly how the game wants you to be", which is a perfectionist.
I'm really confused.
Every game that doesn't give you unlimited instantaneous continues or prevents you from dying entirely introduces a "self-imposed challenge". That's like...98% of games. How can you say "removes ANY sense of reward"? Seeing the plot unfold, making it to the next level, feeling the satisfaction of beating a difficult boss, knowing that you've improved...these are all rewards.
Are you just talking about shooting games, though? So you're saying that you like to intrinsically motivate yourself (playing for score?) in shooting games? That's not how I play, but I can understand that. But as a blanket statement, I think it's a bit too broad...either that or you find most video games unrewarding and annoying.
Or maybe I TOTALLY misunderstood and you're JUST talking about Touhou games, and you're saying that by imposing a "checkpoint to pass" instead of instant continues, they're preventing your enjoyment of the game, because they demand too high of a level of perfection? And all of the "rewards" that I listed are irrelevant because you don't like Touhou anyway?
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| mbisonhatclub
222th Post
PSN: hadoolket
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Frequent Customer
| "Re(1):Random thread, random edition" , posted Sat 30 Oct 13:29
quote:
I know that a lot of the series are good at poking fun at the trends and have deeper plots than they let on, but the atmosphere has to grab me too right?
Yes, this is indeed true
Like what you like
I'm personally not fond of moe and everytime I see a moe character I want to punch it with a steel pipe to the face, deep or no deep
But personal bias aside, "deep" doesn't equate to "useful" or "interesting" and poking fun at trends doesn't make it "insightful" "observant" or smart
Not saying to automatically go out and hate moe, give things a try, if you have the time, and don't go hating something automatically, but at the same time, nobody should let peer pressure dictate what they enjoy just because they're out to make him feel guilty about being too uptight
Gators gonna gate
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| KTallguy 1269th Post
PSN: Hunter-KT
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Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):Random thread, random edition" , posted Fri 5 Nov 10:09:
I'm really interested in Way of the Samurai 4. But I said that about 3 and I never actually bought it. Maybe if I can find it for cheap.
I understand where Inafune's frustration comes from. Unfortunately the majority of the people on the top of most large game publishers all have a marketing/business background and have never had any production experience. This leads to an us versus them relationship and bad decisions made on both sides.
I think that developers should be treated a bit more like artists, but that really expensive games also need a well defined target audience. The problem is that even an "arthouse" videogame costs a lot of money to develop, and the risk with publishing an unproven IP with no obvious target is too crazy. Too many greats have fallen (Sega) because of this issue. And games, like movies or any other paid entertainment, is still a business and that will never go away.
I think that both groups need a little cross pollination. Both are crucial to success; an auteur that makes games only for himself is OK if they don't spend millions of dollars, but they shouldn't expect to reach a large audience without big bucks in marketing. The marketing guy with no production background should acquiesce to some of the designer's crazy ideas, because otherwise their offering will bring nothing new to the table, and their product will be lost in a sea of copycats.
Some say that marketing's job is to sell the games, no matter what they might be, but unfortunately that's an untenable reality. Both groups have to work hand and hand.
I think that leaving a studio and starting your own is a good step, but the Japanese industry is super entrenched... to say nothing of the rest of the world what's the newest up-and-coming game publisher out there that isn't the result of some merger? Small, artsy studios can thrive and live off of big publisher money(Platinum), but if the direction of the industry is to change, a new publisher has to challenge the big fish and show how better practices will result in bigger sales. Too bad they'll just be out-bid and out marketed at almost every turn.
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
[this message was edited by KTallguy on Fri 5 Nov 10:10] |
| Nobinobita 840th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(4):Random thread, random edition" , posted Fri 5 Nov 14:23
quote:
I'm really interested in Way of the Samurai 4. But I said that about 3 and I never actually bought it. Maybe if I can find it for cheap.
I understand where Inafune's frustration comes from. Unfortunately the majority of the people on the top of most large game publishers all have a marketing/business background and have never had any production experience. This leads to an us versus them relationship and bad decisions made on both sides.
I think that developers should be treated a bit more like artists, but that really expensive games also need a well defined target audience. The problem is that even an "arthouse" videogame costs a lot of money to develop, and the risk with publishing an unproven IP with no obvious target is too crazy. Too many greats have fallen (Sega) because of this issue. And games, like movies or any other paid entertainment, is still a business and that will never go away.
I think that both groups need a little cross pollination. Both are crucial to success; an auteur that makes games only for himself is OK if they don't spend millions of dollars, but they shouldn't expect to reach a large audience without big bucks in marketing. The marketing guy with no production background should acquiesce to some of the designer's crazy ideas, because otherwise their offering will bring nothing new to the table, and their product will be lost in a sea of copycats.
Some say that marketing's job is to sell the games, no matter what they m
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
That was the best summary of the last decade of gaming that I've ever read. Thank you for that!
www.art-eater.com
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| Spoon 2040th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Random thread, random edition" , posted Fri 5 Nov 21:20
Sometimes I wonder how "successful" does a creativity-focused entity need to be. Would you like to have a project that's has higher exposure, has the resources to do more, and brings in plenty of money to make everyone involved happy and finance the next project? Sure. But the change in size and scope can radically affect what you can actually make, as well as what any person's role in the project is. Some people love managing huge projects, some people are perfectly happy to be one of countless engineers on some megaproject, and some really want to do everything by themselves.
Is growing bigger just the natural way of things? I wonder if any indie game developer would choose to be happy with "moderate success", and choose to stay small. Being successful enough to stay financially independent, small enough that they can make radically different projects, and powered by some digital distribution method that keeps the publishing overhead manageable enough that it isn't dictating what their game has to be sounds like an ideal situation for a lot of people that want to make games, though achieving that much success is no mean feat.
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| KTallguy 1270th Post
PSN: Hunter-KT
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Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(5):Random thread, random edition" , posted Sat 6 Nov 10:41
quote:
Being successful enough to stay financially independent, small enough that they can make radically different projects, and powered by some digital distribution method that keeps the publishing overhead manageable enough that it isn't dictating what their game has to be sounds like an ideal situation for a lot of people that want to make games, though achieving that much success is no mean feat.
Well you just described Valve (and Blizzard back in the day). I think Valve is an amazing place to work for people who really want to make games.
I think the main issue is that people love money, and want as much of it as humanly possible. Like the Google guys bringing in that former CEO, small studios bring in business people because they're not good at business! They're good at making games, so they want to keep doing that. It's not like their knowledge of business is non existent, but thats not where their true talent lies.
The business guy will recruit other business guys, and soon you have the situation that I described.
Unfortunately, if you want to stay in complete control of a studio, the original founders who mostly want to just make games are going to have to dip their hands in that icky business... business, and make sure that the goals of the studio aren't trampled on.
Yea, Valve is an excellent example, but I'm too damn stupid to get in there, I think. :(
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| Maou 2111th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Random thread, random edition" , posted Sat 6 Nov 10:48
quote:
Yea, Valve is an excellent example, but I'm too damn stupid to get in there, I think. :(
Now that you mention it, KTall, Valve would be a pretty fun place to work if you're going with an American company, I bet. I can only imagine the creative crew that must have put together Portal. If I were in that line of business, it'd be fun to have been at Cing or something like that. Maybe we should make a "what kind of industry do you work?" thread or a "what game company would you enjoy hypothetically being a part of, regardless of actual skills?" thread, or not.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| Gojira 2660th Post
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):Random thread, random edition" , posted Sat 6 Nov 12:52
quote:
Yea, Valve is an excellent example, but I'm too damn stupid to get in there, I think. :(
Now that you mention it, KTall, Valve would be a pretty fun place to work if you're going with an American company, I bet. I can only imagine the creative crew that must have put together Portal.
The irony of this is that the original idea for Portal was created by a very small group of seven students that Valve scouted from the Digipen Institute of Technology. So that idea didn't even originate from within Valve. Left to their own devices, Valve didn't really have the ability to make more than what they had already accomplished: more Half-Life, more Left 4 Dead, more Team Fortress. And now that a few years have passed, they're ready for more Portal too. Not to say it's bad for them, but it tells of a pretty harsh reality that many of the best developers fall into.
A lot of the most creative game designers and producers have one, maybe two great new ideas in them, tops. After that, experience becomes more of a crutch than a benefit in that people - both on the business side and among the gaming public - will just want you to do what you've been doing, and over time you spend more time thinking about improving the ideas you've developed over the years than starting over. Truth be told, that's what a lot of people WANT to do once they get into that position, because it's stable. Whereas it's usually the fresh new faces that actually have the most unique ideas and perspectives to offer, but the industry gives their jobs to those experienced older folk with 5-10 years of experience and solid but relatively unimaginative ideas.
That's why digital distribution and indy development is really one of the best possible things for this industry. It's like a return to the dark days, but unlike those days you can actually get loads of exposure without leaving your garage/basement/closet/treehouse. All you need is a great idea and the tools to carry it out. Like Moai. Yeah, that was a shameless plug for something I helped out with, but do check it out if you're interested in making your own games and know how to script in Lua. We're always looking for some feedback. Oh and BTW the main guy that's developing it is also a Digipen graduate.
Anyway, putting aside that pitch, the point is indy devs are starting to get more exposure, and the hurdle between technological know-how and creativity is getting smaller. I'm hoping something good can come of it, but in the end it's up to those big companies to take notice. Sadly, not all of them are like Valve.
Meh, I think I went off on a tangent. This probably doesn't have much to do with Inafune's issues on the Japanese stairway system, though I think elements of the problem do probably exist there.
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| KTallguy 1272th Post
PSN: Hunter-KT
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Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(7):Random thread, random edition" , posted Mon 8 Nov 01:33
quote:
Now that you mention it, KTall, Valve would be a pretty fun place to work if you're going with an American company, I bet. I can only imagine the creative crew that must have put together Portal. If I were in that line of business, it'd be fun to have been at Cing or something like that. Maybe we should make a "what kind of industry do you work?" thread or a "what game company would you enjoy hypothetically being a part of, regardless of actual skills?" thread, or not.
God, sometimes I wish I was better at programming... but yea, Valve could be a good gig...
Just the thought of working with so many talented people is exciting.
quote:
The irony of this is that the original idea for Portal was created by a very small group of seven students that Valve scouted from the Digipen Institute of Technology.
YES! This is true. But Valve took that group and gave them tons of time and $$$ (Dollaz) and allowed them to fully realize and develop that idea. That's why Valve is great. They also developed Steam, which isn't perfect, but helps many unknown games get attention and is really THE service for PC gaming right now.
And although Left for Dead 2 came out and we're feeling like it's sequel-itis already, the fact remains that Left for Dead is an extremely creative and interesting game in and of itself. And Team Fortress 2 is brilliantly designed with a unique art style and extremely easy to understand mechanics. I think Valve makes it look so easy but when you dig down, those designers really know their stuff.
quote:
...it's usually the fresh new faces that actually have the most unique ideas and perspectives to offer, but the industry gives their jobs to those experienced older folk with 5-10 years of experience and solid but relatively unimaginative ideas.
I respect and love indy games, and the fact that we have an environment where many excellent independent titles are out there making money (Minecraft, enough said), is excellent.
However I would say that there is a lot of value in experience too. Of course we focus on the great independent titles, but for every "Braid" there are 30 other platformers with a cute, non-fleshed out twist on some mechanics and not much else. If every other mainstream game is an FPS, every other indy game is a platformer (or worse, a near-copy of a retail game, look at Loco Roco versus Rolando).
5+ years of experience can make you more close minded; your ideas will become more shaped by the realities of the market based on your past projects. But for every project you learn something new: how to make your game that much more easy to grasp, how to say more with less, how to take a mechanic from "fun gimmick" to "game changing fundamental".
I'm not poo-pooing indy development at all, but indy games are very rarely games for everyone. They are games for enthusiasts. This is OK; you can't please everyone, and making a game for a very specific audience is totally fine.
But as you tread the fine line between making your game easy to understand and making your game oversimplified, you learn how to make a game that respects the player, is thought provoking and satisfying, but simultaneously an experience that the average person (or average gamer) can pick up, immediately understand and become engaged in.
With that awareness, games like Katamari Damashi, Portal, Heavy Rain, Phoenix Wright/Layton, are able to hit a slipstream and touch many people's lives.
Thanks for the link to Moai, Gojira. I will check it out! Although I don't know how to script ... well anything. :(
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| Ishmael 3929th Post
PSN: Ishmael26b
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(8):Random thread, random edition" , posted Mon 8 Nov 01:40
quote:
A lot of the most creative game designers and producers have one, maybe two great new ideas in them, tops. After that, experience becomes more of a crutch than a benefit in that people - both on the business side and among the gaming public - will just want you to do what you've been doing, and over time you spend more time thinking about improving the ideas you've developed over the years than starting over. Truth be told, that's what a lot of people WANT to do once they get into that position, because it's stable. Whereas it's usually the fresh new faces that actually have the most unique ideas and perspectives to offer, but the industry gives their jobs to those experienced older folk with 5-10 years of experience and solid but relatively unimaginative ideas.
Is the best thing the videogame industry can hope for is to constantly eat itself? Yes, new ideas and blood are vital to any industry. But in the arts, creators are given the time to mature and expand on their ideas. Most businesses also benefit from having people with experience in dealing with their job. Is the game industry designed to grind up people as quickly as possible? If so, is that because of the constantly changing technology or the mind set of the industry?
quote:
It looks like the Akira movie is still in development... which is a shame.
Sorry, I'm reading between the lines there.
In game news, some new TTT2 footage has come out. I like that your partner can save you instead of waiting off-screen while you get pounded by two enemies.
Finally, I've really been enjoying how tournaments seem to be streaming almost every weekend nowadays. It's getting to the point that if the regular sports on television aren't holding my interest I can flip over and watch fighting games instead. Between that and YouTube it feels like the fighting game scene has both expanded and become a much smaller place.
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| Toxico 5177th Post
PSN: Toxic-Baron
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(9):Random thread, random edition" , posted Mon 8 Nov 07:33
quote:
In game news, some new TTT2 footage
Unless the game offers me the ability to do a Kangaroo ~ Bear tag throw, to then have a Panda jump into the action and prevent the maneuver, it certainly is not going to grasp the the full potential that we consumers have demanded from the start.
On un-related news, While I was marveling at myself on how the Arcana Radio was so much better than the BB radio (which certainly and surprisingly, is in it's own right much better than the game ); I was then even more awestruck by the game is shaping up in 16:9. The "How it looks right now" is certainly quite an amazing improvement over the hideous, "more blurry than Disgaea 3 sprites" appetizers that we where shown initially a few months ago.
While I'm happy to see another 2d game doesn't look hideous in a HD screen, the fact that Yuki went from working in marvelous Characters like Kusaregedo or Him (Suija) to snotty little brats like Saki is a conflicting matter that will require quite the very deep soul trip on it's own for me to solve... I could try to elaborate on these short lines, but I do realize that "that's wood for another lumberjack" type of story. 
目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
Update 23 as of 25/10/10 (Temporary mega upload link).
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Last update : Chapter 21 as of 15/10/10
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| Professor 2850th Post
MMCafe Owner
| "Re(10):Random thread, random edition" , posted Mon 8 Nov 19:36:
quote:
On un-related news, While I was marveling at myself on how the Arcana Radio was so much better than the BB radio (which certainly and surprisingly, is in it's own right much better than the game )
It's just the whip cream topping.
The thing about that radio show is that you never know how much of it is scripted and how much is libbed'. If the heroine's voice actoress really thought that adding a special move that covers the opponent with thick white cream is a good idea for Arcana Heart, that's nutty beyond having Noel fight with a pair of big plump fish-meat sausages. (To the many non-BlazBlueRadio listeners: it's a recurring joke in the show for mature audiences. Noel's voice actoress sometimes reads the lines without thinking too deeply.)
That coincedently reminds me. I read the novelization of Blazblue a few weeks ago and it was waaay waaaaaaaaaaaay out of line from what I was anticipating for. I was expecting continuous brutal near-death battles like how fighting game publications normally are. Lo and behold, it turned out to be something totally like a date-sim involving Ragna, a furry, and three young magical girls.
For anyone interested in a synopsis and the in-book art, they can be found at an unofficial Blazblue forum here. BW pages first, scroll down for the colours.
[this message was edited by Professor on Mon 8 Nov 23:20] |
| Toxico 5180th Post
PSN: Toxic-Baron
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Re(10):Random thread, random edition" , posted Wed 10 Nov 13:46:
quote:
But won't the change in aspect ratio affect the fight? I thought they were going to create invisible walls to keep the action in a 4:3 ring and paint in the corners but it looks like the action goes across the full screen. Won't this change combos?
Well, if we use our detective skillz on the vids we can certainly see that it's much less pixelated than the previous previews and there is no visible lag and bugs and staffus on it; the vids still fit a 4:3 ratio aspect...
Ther is Also that (from early reports) we have already heard that if they where to change the game to 16 : 9, the work needed to do so would more or less be a re do of every sprite from scratch and even with that the main core gameplay would be greatly altered in the finished product...
So, seeing how history has shown us already Arc system's great reluctance to recycle sprites, we can ergo deduce that the game is going to be like those xbald arcades version, where they are going to have obscene filtering along with those magicaldropesque moving pictures that where to the sides of the screen some showing ago (and that where conveniently omited from those preview vids.
So, bottom line "the butler did it", "he pasted every sprite from the arcade release, re filtered with insane amounts of works, and released the game", * drives of in the scoobie doo van while he Cues to "I wanna swing on a star" (Hudson Hawk style). * <- An actual in topic "random news" link 
Dissidia doesn't fail to creep us up
目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
Update 23 as of 25/10/10 (Temporary mega upload link).
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Last update : Chapter 21 as of 15/10/10
[this message was edited by Toxico on Wed 10 Nov 23:18] |
| Loona 352th Post
PSN: IkariLoona
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Silver Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):Random thread, random edition" , posted Fri 12 Nov 23:06
quote:
Are there any SRPG fans in here? This is probably the best SRPG I've ever played :)
I haven't played a whole lot of them, most of them are rather old, and the genre probably has advanced a bit beyond my experience with it, but I have some fondness for it.
I read a bit about this one, and the 2 distinguishing features I managed to ind in reviews look interesting: replacing the "taking turns" system I know from games like the SRW series and Bahamut Lagoon with something more dynamic, even if based on character stats, and the Training feature/screen, which if I understood correctly lets you level up underleveled characters between plot missions.
I still find it interesting how SRPG ended up being the genre of choice when making a crossover game between Gundam, Mazinger and Getter, and how the SRW series managed to expand well beyond that and to contemplate features unique to so many different kinds of shows in a fairly choesive manner - I do wonder however, if nowadays there's still time/patience among most people to go through such typical long stages with all those menus for every little action...
I've been enjoying KOF Sky Stage recently, more than I expected actually, so I can't help but think what other genres would work to tell the same kinds of stories, yet contemplate all those characters have of unique about them - I always end up thinking about SRW and how a SRPG would work for a fighting game crossover and what would need to be changed (like square grids to hexa grids for dodging while maintaining the distance, for example) to keep the movement and (counter)attacks fluid while removing the execution barrier th actual fighting games will probably never let go of...
Then I remember the battle system in Live-a-Live and how it did away with turns (but kept the menus...), then I look for games with comparable battle systems, and remember I may need to look into Treasure Hunter G and Emerald Dragon one of these days...
Yeah, I've been thinking perhaps a bit too much about this lately, sorry about that...
"Beat the machine that works in your head!" - Guano Apes "Open Your Eyes"
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| KTallguy 1278th Post
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Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(6):Re(10):Random thread, random edition" , posted Fri 12 Nov 23:40
quote:
I do wonder however, if nowadays there's still time/patience among most people to go through such typical long stages with all those menus for every little action...
The short answer is ... well ... most people don't have that patience! SRPGs are cheap to make though, and there is a hardcore contingent in Japan that likes them, so we have the Disgaea series and stuff. But I must say, the presentation in this game is leaps and bounds over any other SRPG I've played (well, the Super Robot series is over the top but the animations are too long for my taste).
SRPGs aren't really like fighting games because there is no execution under pressure. I would say that RTS are more like fighting games. In Starcraft you "dance" your units in and out of range of the opponents units, hoping to catch them out of position or distract them while bringing around other units from behind.
SRPGs are more about building a team little by little and learning the different nuances of the different jobs and their advantages and disadvantages. Then you figure out the best formations and ways to approach different battle situations.
For example, in Tactics Ogre PSP, there is a skill where warriors can be positioned near choke points, and any enemy that tries to move through automatically be frozen when they pass by this warrior. So effectively the warrior can block passage while you keep your magic users and archers in the back, where they can use their superior range and abilities safely. But the opponent can also utilize archers, and if they are on higher ground they can fire over the heads of the warriors, etc.
In that way, SRPGs are more akin to a chess match of sorts, where you are maneuvering pieces in different locations to create the most advantageous situation, but the challenge is finding that advantage, not executing on it.
Oh but I love live a live ! I think that system revisited could be really amazing!
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| Loona 353th Post
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| "Re(7):Re(10):Random thread, random edition" , posted Sat 13 Nov 00:59
quote:
SRPGs are cheap to make though, and there is a hardcore contingent in Japan that likes them, so we have the Disgaea series and stuff. But I must say, the presentation in this game is leaps and bounds over any other SRPG I've played (well, the Super Robot series is over the top but the animations are too long for my taste).
That's one of the odd things about the turn system in that series - you can have very simple attacks, and those ultra long dynamic kills (which some games don't let you skip, because the developers don't like you ignoring their hard work on them - still, they could do what some eroges do: unskippable the 1st time you see it, then skip away every other time if you want), and it takes them all the same turn to do it. Not to mention that if a unit's attacked it can do a long attack as a counter lots of times per turn if it has the EN/ammo.
Which is why I mentioned Live-a-Live - attacks there didn't use MP or anything, but they had a start-up time and possible target areas in the 2D battle grid (dunno about a recovery time), and when you weren't attacking you could move at will. A great little system which flowed nicely when I used it, but I'd have to play it again to recall how well it worked when you were controlling a team and had levelled enough to have lots of possible attack options...
quote:
SRPGs aren't really like fighting games because there is no execution under pressure.
Thus this little thought exercise of mine - removing the execution barrier by envisioning characters in a different genre.
I can see Ryu working in a grid system having a purpose for each of his specials, given some prerequisites:
* for example, you can move to an adjacent place in a grid by walking or dashing, but could move 2 places in the grid by jumping, which would also allow you to get behind a character adjacent to you.
* moving is never instant (nothing is), so if you have grid cells in a line, A|B|C, and you're in A and want to move to C, you don't skip B, it's a moment in game game during which another character could be doing something - like attacking B or dropping a trap in C.
* nothing is instant, which includes attacks - once you've commited to something, it'll be done all the way to the end unless that character/move has ways to be cancelled or interrupted by some other action, or is interrupted by another character's action.
(the puzzle for the concept is mostly how to handle the flow of time - maybe let time flow by itself when every player character's in a state impossible to control because they've already started something, but beyond that it's finding a balance between too much control to micromanage actions frame-by-frame - if the start of the "idle" phases would work like traditional turns, the option of delay them as much as you want should be there to, for example, react properly to an enemy unit's attack moving toward your, without telegraphing too early exactly what you're doing so he'll have time to change the attack or get other units to go stop you -, or let time flow anyway, and have the execution barrier - controlling things with proper timing, harder if dealing with menus - that the concept was meant to avoid in the 1st place)
With this, Ryu's classic specials all have a purpose:
* Hadoken: hit a character in a line for a certain range. Maybe a Shinkuu version could hit several in a row, referencing Vs series beams.
* Shoryuken: hit a character trying to jump behind you, but could also hit an adcacent character in the direction you're facing.
* Tatsumaki Sempukyaku: moving a few cells in a given durection while hitting stuff around you. A Shinkuu/EX version could just deliver hits all around you without you moving
* that kick special from SF3 and TvC: hit a character in front of you so that he's pushed to a different cell - possibly putting him range of another character of yours ready to attack.
quote:
I would say that RTS are more like fighting games. In Starcraft you "dance" your units in and out of range of the opponents units, hoping to catch them out of position or distract them while bringing around other units from behind.
It's the sort of thing I'd like to avoid - high-level SC seems to rely a lot of precise and quick micro and macro management of several units at once. It's like the strategy equivalent or those insane expert challenges in KoF2002UM which few people can realistically expect to ever complete.
quote:
SRPGs are more about building a team little by little and learning the different nuances of the different jobs and their advantages and disadvantages. Then you figure out the best formations and ways to approach different battle situations.
That's the part I like and think could work well for some fighting game characters: just think of the variety of support actions some characters had as strikers in KoF2000 that they couldn't use while playable (iirc, Athena could heal your character, or at least add to your power bar, Shingo could immobilize an opponent, etc...), or even some of their cards in the CFC series (like Terry not being prevented from defending after attacking, implying good recovery time, or some character cards having skills that would only damage high-powered cards).
Heck, think about actually having KoF teams actually working as full teams with all 3 characters active, instead of one at a time or simply switching between them so only one is ever fighting.
I need to get back to programming some day, at least graphics-handling stuf they never covered in college...
"Beat the machine that works in your head!" - Guano Apes "Open Your Eyes"
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| KTallguy 1280th Post
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| "Re(8):Re(10):Random thread, random edition" , posted Mon 15 Nov 15:04
Lotsa great stuff!
I just want to address 2 things:
Livealive has a cool system and a lot of neat things, but the positioning idea doesn't really work in that game very well. The field is so small and normally you can't really dodge attacks, so you end up only moving a little bit and using a lot of special full screen attacks. The real time positioning of in games like Valkyria Chronicles and Dragon Quarter are a bit more interesting in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong on LiveaLive, Spoon (gl on your homework).
The system you're describing reminds me of something I'd like to call "theory fighter": people begin to talk about their fighter of choice, and how if their opponent threw out this move at this time, all they would have to do is X defensive technique or X counter attack to beat them.
If as you say, every move has a start up time and you have to commit to movement, it seems like it would be really risky to be aggressive. In traditional fighting games, because of the time/reflex barrier you can't react perfectly to everything without some element of prediction: you read that your opponent will take an action and you counter. If before Ryu throws a hadouken I can already see he is preparing to, the smartest thing to do is wait until he throws it, move the shortest amount of distance to dodge, and then do my fastest possible move to hurt him. I assume these moves have some sort of vulnerability window at the end.
Now if there are multiple characters, it gets a bit more interesting. Using one character to prevent an enemy from moving and attacking with another, controlling space is what makes SRPGs fun. But if it's a game about handling the flow of time, I would play a reactive game, move when my opponent was preparing to attack, take the shortest attack and chip the enemy to death.
It really depends on how you design it. There are a lot of games that do the real time hybrid with pause option, like Baulder's gate, but that game has pretty poor combat in my opinion.
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| Loona 354th Post
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| "Re(9):Re(10):Random thread, random edition" , posted Tue 16 Nov 00:52
quote:
Livealive has a cool system and a lot of neat things, but the positioning idea doesn't really work in that game very well. The field is so small and normally you can't really dodge attacks, so you end up only moving a little bit and using a lot of special full screen attacks.
I tried the final part of LAL again during the weekend, and I have to disagree with the part regarding positioning - it does work to an extent, once you see which paths or areas an enemy atack can cover (avoiding diagonals tends to be a safe bet in a few fights, especially the western boss), but to make up for it, sometimes enemies move at the same time you do, and by the time you get your character in a safe spot, you may find the rest of your party is in a vulnarable place, and can't switch them until you do something with your current guy - and you don't know if the next turn will be yours or the enemy's.
The game does have automatic dodging in some cases, probably depending on stats, which fortunately can activate even on enemy AoE attacks.
I don't think the size of the arenas is too small, although it probably encourages a limited amount of attack paths (as do the limited enemy sprites - the prime example is the western boss' gatling gun attack: his sprte is aiming diagonally, and that the one path you need to avoid to be safe), instead of something more generally range-based.
quote:
The real time positioning of in games like Valkyria Chronicles and Dragon Quarter are a bit more interesting in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong on LiveaLive, Spoon (gl on your homework).
I just read a bit on those two - though lacking the experience, briefly reading about VC's shift between a wider map view an single character focus makes me curous... then again, it seems to rely a lot on ranged weapons, which might not translate well to unarmed combat...
What I did read about Dragon Quarter reminded me of this weekend's very short experience with Treasure Hunter G: it's also fairly dynamic, you can move around during fights, and during your turn you have a few action points you can spend moving and attacking - the direction characters are facing is important too, as a hit from behind does more damage (not sure about the sides), and you can move and hit trough diagonals - helps save on action points from moving, as it doesn't use action points, and does make moving around on a square grid a bit more flexibly than non-hexa-grid systems where "around" means only 4 directions; as it was a very quick emulator experience and I forgot were the shoulder buttons were assigned to, I didn't try enough of this to see how well it flowed.
quote:
The system you're describing reminds me of something I'd like to call "theory fighter": people begin to talk about their fighter of choice, and how if their opponent threw out this move at this time, all they would have to do is X defensive technique or X counter attack to beat them.
Stuff like this is why I think having a little random variation in these timings might be interesting, maybe improving the timing margins through frequent use would be an option.
One thing that crossed my mind regarding regular moves compared to specials is how to handle them control-wise and the possibility of combos -maybe have a button just for normal attacks, which if sufficiently used reduce recovery time from the training to automatically be followed up by another attack to combo from that if you keep pressing - could be a point for character distinction, but then I think about the movesets of characters in 3D games like Tekken and VF, and how most useful moves tend to be fairly "normal", or at least look that way, but their usefulness tends to be circumstantial - characters like that could have long possible combos to make up for a limited set of special-ish moves, but that's probably too limiting and repetitive... at least if I'm trying to do away with states like crouching and the associated blocking properties for the sake of simplicity... at most I can think of slight variations like attacks that push or bring a character to the floor - but that's the sort of thing that traditional specials do so the concepts may need to be blurred...
I think about the possibility of having some sort of color code showing if a character is idle (maybe green), starting an attack (maybe yellow), in the actual attacking frames (red), recovering from finishing an attack (maybe blue) with a few variations throughout (maybe orange for the frames after an attack if it has a possible follow-up, like Kyo's Aragami chains; still undecided on colors for stuff like charging power, Geese-ish counter-stances, taunting, fallen on the floor, etc...).
I figure knowing what's happening at any given time, but not knowing exactly how long it could last could keep things interesting, or at least a little less algorithmic.
quote:
I assume these moves have some sort of vulnerability window at the end.
Wouldn't have it any other way. The classic counter-attack example to interrupt someone else's attack is the Shoryuken, which has always been balanced by being extremely punishable when it misses.
The multiple character thing would be a strong point - I mentioned things like KoF striker actions, but stuff like taunting to make a character turn around (then having another attack the turned character from the back) could work nively, as could choosing your move taking into account how many enemies you're dealing with and where they are; if blocking only protects you from one direction, it may be less practical if you're being zerged rushed from all sides, but maybe safer than a Rising Stormish move that hits everyone adjacent to you, but maybe leaving you vulnerable from a long recovery time if anyone survives - or instead using a dashing attack to reposition yourself while hitting someone on the way.
My usual source for translated SNES games doesn't seem to have Emerald Dragon in English, but I really need to go look for that one: I read good things on its battle system, and an intriguing one is you only ever control a single character, everyone else is the CPU's business - My experience with FFXI does help to think of an enmity system to figure out whom attacks whom by default, and letting the player stick to a given character (leaving some leeway to reactions and letting time flow more or less normally) but switching in his team or pausing to give specific orders ("stay there", "get that character's attention", "go there", "attack that guy", etc...) at will might be worth looking into.
"Beat the machine that works in your head!" - Guano Apes "Open Your Eyes"
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"Re(2):Random thread, random edition" , posted Tue 12 Oct 03:47
"Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Random thread, ran" , posted Fri 3 Dec 11:25
