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| Maou 1958th Post
 
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
   
    
    
    
    
|  "Re(2):----" , posted Sat 20 Mar 10:28:
quote:
In other news, over at Gamasutra Brandon urges us to think of the poor, poor children.
Damn him for abandoning us, but Brandon is correct here, seems to me. I'm trying to remember when hyperviolence in console games became the norm. I mean, there were always upsets like Mortal Kombat and all that ever since the early days, but the modern 3D American-style action game with 'cool' ways to slice up your opponents is really something I only noticed around PS2/Xbox or so, I think. Not that it's all Americans, either. Ninja Gaiden comes to mind.
But yeah, like every other part of culture anywhere, our favorite (?) medium is rapidly devolving to the lowest common denominator, which given the state of humanity, is pretty impressively low. When I was a kid, I used to get upset about people who would try to censor video games and all that, but given how widespread blatantly violent action games have become, I'm starting to get to I can see their point a little more.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 20 Mar 10:28] |
| Olivier Hague
143th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(5):----" , posted Sun 21 Mar 07:49
How appropriate a topic, during "God of War week"!
'Reminds me of this article:
quote:
Asmussen remembers one scene in particular, a violent moment inspired by the Gaspar Noé film Irréversible, infamous for its brutal rape scene and gruesome beating death of a man by fire extinguisher.
"I wanted something that intense, and a lot of work went into getting this particular scene right," Asmussen recalls. "Finally, the team got it working and somebody pulled me out of a meeting, very excited, to look at it. It was brutal and I was like, 'That is so fucking awesome.'" The God of War III lead wouldn't spoil the scene under discussion, but from what we've played, the level of violence is clearly beyond what previous games in the series aimed for.
"It was one of the things that we thought there was no way, the ESRB wouldn't let us do that, but they were fine with it," Asmussen said of the game's violence, which is "conceptually a lot grosser" than previous installments.
"I don't think we're being gratuitous," he argued. "We didn't end up shipping anything that I felt uncomfortable with."
(emphasis mine)
... Does that guy even know what "gratuitous" means?
"Mature" games, indeed.
By the way, am I the only one who likes Greek mythology but can't think of a way to put up with their kayfabe version of it?
(^ spoilers for God of War III, I guess?)
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| ONSLAUGHT 3885th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Mmmhh..." , posted Mon 22 Mar 14:38:
I... I can't believe we're talking about how violence is corrupting videogames as if they were part of the fine arts!
Games and violence have been hand to hand since the beginning, wether is punching, kicking, shooting or exploding things, t's always been all about violence, sport and puzzle games might be the exception, but let's face it for most of us it was the action/adventure games that attracted to us this hobby.
And no, there is no "tasteful" way to represent violence. Violence will be violence, no matter what. The only difference between Mario and Ryu Hayabusa is the stylization of their vile acts, because after all, Mario is crushing turtles, setting little creatures on fire or eating them alive with the help of Yoshi! If that's not gruesome, I don't know what is...
Graphic violence has been there all the time, perhaps it seems more prevalent and "shocking" today due to the graphic capabilities of consoles and pc's, but it's always been the same, it's always been "gratuitous", because there's no excuse to portray violence as a way to have fun, yet we've been playing games for what, 25 or 30 years?
I'm not trying to change your opinions or your views, I'm just voicing mine.
And I guess what someone said is true "FPS and mainstream gaming discussions do not belong here... There are plenty of other places to talk about such games, but not the Cafe. It does not fit the clientele.
A bunch of elitist pricks? Delusional geeks who refuse to submit to the tide of time? Maybe we are both. The thing is that people here have quite different tastes, both in a good and in a not so good sense"
It's been a fun ride, but I think I'll set my sights on much greener pastures, much less sophisticated than this place.
Thank you all.
[this message was edited by ONSLAUGHT on Mon 22 Mar 14:45] |
| Maou 1965th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "ode to onsy" , posted Mon 22 Mar 14:54:
quote:
I... I can't believe we're talking about how violence is corrupting videogames as if they were part of the fine arts!
Games and violence have been hand to hand since the beginning, wether is punching, kicking, shooting or exploding things, t's always been all about violence, sport and puzzle games might be the exception, but let's face it for most of us it was the action/adventure games that attracted to us this hobby.
Sweet Onsy, don't leave us. That quote was probably a joke, and there's always room for FPS's here---I even care about Mass Effect now, thanks to that thread. Besides, you and Ishmael are both right about violence being sort of an inherent part of a good number of games form the onset. Violence is probably a bad thing, but I still think the nature of its representation matters---Mario just isn't horrifying like punching someone's head off is. Yeah, the Looney Tunes might have had a "bad influence" in making cartoonish violence funny, but it's probably still more harmful to show your kid Saw 5 or something. The degree matters.
It's the difference between the old 1940's Hollywood norm of people getting shot off-screen and without blood and the carnage we see today. Both are "bad" to watch, but it does make a difference how it's portayed, I think.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Mon 22 Mar 14:56] |
| Hagen de Merak 1056th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(1):Mmmhh..." , posted Mon 22 Mar 15:20
I think you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill. It's funny that you guys are saying how unnecessary the violence in GoW3 is, or how it's portrayed. Has anyone played the first one, or the second one? It clearly explains Krato's violent ways and brutality. In essence, the violence is relevant to his character, and the story. It's not like the designers just threw it out there randomly like other games do. It's called God of War for a reason. And fine arts, really? I definitely consider games art, but calling it fine arts is stretching it. I also find it ironic since most people here (not all I know) watch "anime" (let's face it, it's just anima-tion) that is way more violent than god of war. But no one complains about that, right?
But really, where does censorship stop? All I'm saying is, don't knock a great game just because it's not your thing. If the game was just utter shit then I would understand.
*end of my shitty post.
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| Hagen de Merak 1057th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(3):Mmmhh..." , posted Mon 22 Mar 16:32
quote:
I also find it ironic since most people here (not all I know) watch "anime" (let's face it, it's just anima-tion) that is way more violent than god of war.
Really? Could you name a few titles?
A lot of the samurai related animes (kenshin ova's, ninja scroll, and lets not forget samurai pizza cats!) I can't remember the names of the others I've seen, but they were up there.
Also Berserk (the manga's waaay crazier), and twilight of the darkmaster, just to name a few. hokuto no ken is violent as hell, but that's more comedic violence to me, i cant help but laugh. And I'm sure there's way more but I'm not the biggest anime fan in the world either.I'm sure other people here can name way more than me. Hell, since you're a fan I'm sure you could name more than me. Maybe these aren't worse than god of war(it's debatable), but they have just as much violence. And don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, I've seen all of them and have enjoyed them, just as I have enjoyed God of War.
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| Hagen de Merak 1058th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(5):Mmmhh..." , posted Mon 22 Mar 18:51
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GoW is silly, stupid, immature and is as effective in its representation of Greek mythology as Saint Seya. If I recall correctly, it was that way since the first one.
Wait, we are talking about Greek mythology right? I suppose my understanding of Greek mythology is completely different, because for me it's represented perfectly by god of war. Maybe I don't understand English as well as I thought. I've read and have studied a lot of Greek mythology and it's all about power and achieving it through brute force, filled with violence, incest, and all sorts of carnage. It all of course leads to destruction and war. Compare that to eastern mythology (india, china) which concentrates more on spiritualism and pacifism.
And who decides what's stupid, or mature or silly? It's all opinion based. Again, it's all perception, different people like different games, doesn't make them any "less" of a game than any other. Funny that you mention Saint Seiya, one of my favorite series of all time. See what I mean? Yet I thought Spirited Away was utter shit while everyone else loved it. But I don't go around saying it's shit, because it's just not my type of entertainment. I do however have to agree with you on Mortal Kombat. Not because of the violence, but because the game itself sucks, the gameplay is terrible. I wouldn't knock that game if the gameplay was decent. I still wouldn't care for it because its just not my style, but at least there would be something to justify its popularity if the gameplay was any good.
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| Iggy 9085th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Mmmhh..." , posted Mon 22 Mar 20:54
Sorry, I should have added "but that's what the game is about (being silly etc) so either we deal with it or just not play it and play something else". I don't dislike the game GoW (nor do I like it that much), but there I was talking of.... well, "the rest". The package. The orientation. The core concept of the character.
Oh, and I like Saint Seya, Spirited Away, and I played Mortal Kombat 2 at the time like everyone else and even enjoyed it.
quote:
And who decides what's stupid, or mature or silly? It's all opinion based.
Indeed. I was trying to see if I could objectively defend Bayonetta while criticizing GoW, but I found out I couldn't. Both are violent to the point of ridiculousness, Bayo makes me laugh and I think it was the intention of the designers, GoW makes me laugh (in a sad, sad way) and I don't think it was supposed to.
But if someone says Bayo grosses him out (the torture attacks, not the proportions of the character) then it's difficult to say "you're wrong". It's a matter of feeling, perception, opinion as you say.
quote:
Again, it's all perception, different people like different games, doesn't make them any "less" of a game than any other.
I should have been clearer. I do not buy the "finer art" thing, and GoW is as much of a game as Modern Warfare or Pokémon Heartgold. Videogame as a medium can become anything depending on what the people who create them create and what the people who buy them buy. And all the shitty B movies ever made didn't prevent niche movies about underage Romanian girls aborting to be created 50 years later.
What I try to say is: this whole debate is utterly ridiculous, because it won't change a thing, and both sides are trying to find approval from people I despise (horny violence hungry teenagers on one side, art critic/parental figure on the other).
quote:
I've read and have studied a lot of Greek mythology and it's all about power and achieving it through brute force, filled with violence, incest, and all sorts of carnage. It all of course leads to destruction and war. Compare that to eastern mythology (india, china) which concentrates more on spiritualism and pacifism.
That's something entirely different.
First, eastern mythologies can be as violent as western ones (rape, incest, exhibitionism are at the core of Shinto's most important myths, Hindu ones talk about dismemberment on a daily basis, women in Buddhism are even less human than they appear in Christianity, etc).
Then, there's the misconception about most polytheisms on how all the myths would be presented as true.
But the thing is, truth doesn't matter in all religions as much as it does in the Jewish one and its 2 offsprings.
Most people in ancient Greece didn't think the myth actually physically happened. And whether they did or didn't wasn't important.
First, and it's even more important in Rome, religion was above all a social act. That cannot be stressed enough in our societies where religion is mostly seen as a private belief.
The actions (sacrifices to gods, festivals...) were what mattered and made you part of a community, not the fact whether you believed Aphrodite sleeps with Ares or Hephaistos. Myths are tales that try to explain the words. They are metaphors. The union of love and war, or of the beauty of love and the ugliness of labour is a metaphor, and an important tale that helped people make sense out of the stupidly meaningless process we call life.
The exigence of truth doesn't exists: you just used the myths that helped you explain the particular situation you face, and if it didn't work, you created a new one. Why does the earth shake? Why does night come? Why is it hot, then cold? Why is there war? Why do I desire this woman? Why does my son hates me? Why do people die? Will I die to? What does it mean? What does it all mean?
In most polytheisms, gods aren't truths. They are tentative explanations. That's why you cannot make any sense out of the Egyptian and Roman religions if you study them from the strict "storytelling" point of view. You have to understand what it actually meant to the society that used them on an everyday basis to structure itself.
On the other hand, the Jewish tradition is totally different. First, because most of it tells the history of a scattered people. As such, it has to be factual. Father, son, son of the son, living here, moving there, chased there.It's because the Jewish people were scattered that they needed an element that would tie them all together. That element would be the past. History. Truth.
Myths aggregated with this story forever told and retold (the Flood, for example, which is one of the most glaring borrowed myth), and by that process became as true as David or Solomon's reigns.
And it was because their religion pretended to be true (= and all the others to be false) that Christianity and the old religions couldn't coexist. Rome could swallow all the others, Greek or Egyptian, and make them its own without changing anything. It couldn't with Christianity.
OK, I digressed. Sorry about the tl;dr stuff.
What I meant was: complaining about anything that wouldn't do justice to the Greek religion is meaningless as long as you approach religion from a Jewish/Christian/Muslim point of view. In that point of view, you just have a story, and you adapt it one way or the other, like Hollywood gladiator movies have been doing for dozen of years. Sometimes you have a neat idea, sometimes you don't.
I think the only game that managed to adapt polytheism (or rather, animism) in a way that actually made sense was Ôkami. That was, in my mind, that game's most glaring success.
------------------
Conclusion: Heavy Rain is an odious pile of shit and David Cage is an embarrassment and should be banned from ever talking in public about anything.
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| Hagen de Merak 1059th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(7):Mmmhh..." , posted Tue 23 Mar 04:22
quote:
Sorry, I should have added "but that's what the game is about (being silly etc) so either we deal with it or just not play it and play something else". I don't dislike the game GoW (nor do I like it that much), but there I was talking of.... well, "the rest". The package. The orientation. The core concept of the character.
Oh, and I like Saint Seya, Spirited Away, and I played Mortal Kombat 2 at the time like everyone else and even enjoyed it.
Ah ok, gotcha.
quote:
Indeed. I was trying to see if I could objectively defend Bayonetta while criticizing GoW, but I found out I couldn't. Both are violent to the point of ridiculousness, Bayo makes me laugh and I think it was the intention of the designers, GoW makes me laugh (in a sad, sad way) and I don't think it was supposed to.
But if someone says Bayo grosses him out (the torture attacks, not the proportions of the character) then it's difficult to say "you're wrong". It's a matter of feeling, perception, opinion as you say.
Yeah I see what you mean. Like I mentioned before, Hokuto no Ken's violence is so ridiculous that it makes me laugh, but I thoroughly enjoy it.
quote:
I should have been clearer. I do not buy the "finer art" thing, and GoW is as much of a game as Modern Warfare or Pokémon Heartgold. Videogame as a medium can become anything depending on what the people who create them create and what the people who buy them buy. And all the shitty B movies ever made didn't prevent niche movies about underage Romanian girls aborting to be created 50 years later.
What I try to say is: this whole debate is utterly ridiculous, because it won't change a thing, and both sides are trying to find approval from people I despise (horny violence hungry teenagers on one side, art critic/parental figure on the other).
Oh don't get me wrong, I completely understand. All I was trying to say is that, underneath all that coating I think there is a great game. Not everyone is going to agree. In the end It's just a game like any other, either you like it or you don't. Simple as that.
quote:
That's something entirely different.
First, eastern mythologies can be as violent as western ones (rape, incest, exhibitionism are at the core of Shinto's most important myths, Hindu ones talk about dismemberment on a daily basis, women in Buddhism are even less human than they appear in Christianity, etc).
Yeah, you're right eastern mythologies can be as violent, but I meant more in general terms, if that makes sense.
quote:
OK, I digressed. Sorry about the tl;dr stuff.
What I meant was: complaining about anything that wouldn't do justice to the Greek religion is meaningless as long as you approach religion from a Jewish/Christian/Muslim point of view. In that point of view, you just have a story, and you adapt it one way or the other, like Hollywood gladiator movies have been doing for dozen of years. Sometimes you have a neat idea, sometimes you don't.
I think the only game that managed to adapt polytheism (or rather, animism) in a way that actually made sense was Ôkami. That was, in my mind, that game's most glaring success.
I guess I perceived it more as a myth than religion. In other words, using the myth's as inspiration to tell a tale. Representing it the way you say would be entirely different. But anyways, I see you did your homework, probably years ago lol.
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| Toxico 4895th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
|  "Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Tue 23 Mar 13:59
quote:
(how did they even find the Cafe??)
Well, this is obviously a rhetorical question, so I'll ruin everything by answering it: The thing is that, once every show, or magazine scan or something pops up here and there about a game, people here usually grab it and do a little review on it while translating it; and they tend to do it quickly... So other sites that may or might not have people that translate prefer to grab a piece of text from here, and quote it on their place with the usual "I**y @ mmcafe said", so with only that this place goes around. A lot.
What I do find perplexing about this little issue is how people that have absolutely no intent of posting here, can complain so much about topic addressed in these forums in such a raging manner. It's not like we care what they said, and the opposite should also be true.
Now, more on topic :
The whole "morfit" of HnK was showing how people that where just totally corrupted, perverse and just plain stupidly cruel and beyond redemption where going to end up having their guts squished like road kills. We can see many issues like these in the series, initially Kenshiro is "soft" and forgives some his enemies when they plea for their lives... and this only end ups in huge disasters and tragedies to the weak and the innocent. A side effect from this "whack the wicked" politic is that most of the profound characters don't suffer such horrible deaths, but mostly die anyway since they are antagonizing in certain level of evil way.
In the end Hara did a very careful job on "not" showing us villains that didn't really see it coming and that it was more or less absolutely necessary with no other way around it.
GoW more or less doesn't use violence as a "side effect" of a certain exposure of anything; Kratos "revenge" is more or less focused in anything that it moves, and doesn't really affect only the guys that are supposed to get it... Instead of showing the "brutality" as a means of achieving something, we are just exposed to violence as an end, which is quite primitive and lame from a direction point of view... It's like if the GoW staff expect me to sit down on a large couch while having one of those stupids beer can hats with some straws to my mouth and grunting "wow, coo000l" at every bloody moment present in the game. I do not appreciate that feeling.
...All in all I don't pretend to bash GoW as a game (aka gameplay), but it's quite clear that if you didn't fell madly in love with the first game, you are better not caring with any other of the games, as they are just the same hat, but with more feathers.
In the very end, we could always argue that using violence as part of something is always bad. But if whoever is making something for me to watch / interact with choose to add some little brain smashing here and there, having certain levels of coherence and subtlety here and there can allow me to enjoy something that might prove to be senseless if is done half heartedly.
目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
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Last update : Chapter 15 as of 21/01/10
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| Olivier Hague
145th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Tue 23 Mar 16:43
quote:
GoW more or less doesn't use violence as a "side effect" of a certain exposure of anything; Kratos "revenge" is more or less focused in anything that it moves, and doesn't really affect only the guys that are supposed to get it... Instead of showing the "brutality" as a means of achieving something, we are just exposed to violence as an end, which is quite primitive and lame from a direction point of view... It's like if the GoW staff expect me to sit down on a large couch while having one of those stupids beer can hats with some straws to my mouth and grunting "wow, coo000l" at every bloody moment present in the game. I do not appreciate that feeling.
Pretty much.
Also, what are Kratos' motivations, again? I mean, sure, RRRRREVENGE! but for what? He killed his own family, right? OK, he was working for a god when he did... but that was Ares, so that was pretty much taken care of in the first game. So he's being horribly brutal and sadistic because...?
And I dunno, I guess I'm just not fond of the characters talking like wrestlers. See my link above. And yeah, of course, Hercules' labours only wish they were as fucking awesome as the God of War games.
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| Iggy 9087th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Tue 23 Mar 18:02:
quote:
It's like if the GoW staff expect me to sit down on a large couch while having one of those stupids beer can hats with some straws to my mouth and grunting "wow, coo000l" at every bloody moment present in the game.
Well... Yeah, and?
There are more people like these in the US than homosexual forum goers that know how to read.
quote:
So he's being horribly brutal and sadistic because...?
Yeah, OK, Krato's settei don't make any sense, and the ending of GoW3 even less. But then, what would you expect.
On the other hand, I really think there's something in the core concept (a pure force of chaos destroying every living thing it encounters just because it can). Usually, that would be the final boss of a poorly-written JRPG, there, you play it. The change of perspective is somehow interesting. And the good thing with toying with that idea is that you don't even have to buy or play the game to toy with it.
quote:
And yeah, of course, Hercules' labours only wish they were as fucking awesome as the God of War games.
OK, now you're being ridiculous. You're blaming an American game for being culturally insensitive and written by a bunch of ignorant morons. It's like being angry at David Cage for being an arrogant retard.
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And since this random thread has spiralled into GoW3 noise, let's get the news of the Nintendo 3DS here:
http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20100323_356362.html
The console will have a 3D function without the use of 3D glasses (Virtual Boy what?) and backward compatibility to DS/DSi.
I suppose the 3D function will involve tilting the screens, like that game that used the camera as a movement detector?
I really wonder if Nintendo will be able to convince people to shift to a new console. Or maybe their goal is just to release a new upgrade of the DS every year, and even if people only buy one every 3 years, they're still winning?
[this message was edited by Iggy on Tue 23 Mar 18:12] |
| Olivier Hague
147th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(4):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Tue 23 Mar 19:56:
quote:
On the other hand, I really think there's something in the core concept (a pure force of chaos destroying every living thing it encounters just because it can). Usually, that would be the final boss of a poorly-written JRPG, there, you play it. The change of perspective is somehow interesting.
But that's the thing: they don't really go there. And the ending... Ah, well.
quote:
I suppose the 3D function will involve tilting the screens, like that game that used the camera as a movement detector?
Meh, that would be cheating (and has already been achieved on the current DS hardware, right?).
I'm dreaming of a "lenticular" screen that would show two different images depending on the angle (-> one image per eye). After all, you do have to look at the DS screens at a certain angle, right? Probably won't happen, but heh.
[this message was edited by Olivier Hague on Tue 23 Mar 19:58] |
| Iggy 9088th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Tue 23 Mar 20:37:
quote:
But that's the thing: they don't really go there. And the ending... Ah, well.
Well, of course they don't, they're american. They're giant pussies.
EDIT: Suddenly, it struck me: the ending is actually pretty good: it's a metaphor of the American invasion of Irak!!
"We destroyed your country, razed everything, killed countless innocent people for our own personal vendetta and lust for treasures/oil, but here! We give you hope, so we're even now!"
It. All. Makes. Sense.
quote:
I'm dreaming of a "lenticular" screen that would show two different images depending on the angle (-> one image per eye). After all, you do have to look at the DS screens at a certain angle, right? Probably won't happen, but heh.
Wouldn't it get tiring after a time?
But then, if they do that, could Arkedo ask royalties for it? That would be awesome.
[this message was edited by Iggy on Tue 23 Mar 21:26] |
| karasu99 317th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(6):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Wed 24 Mar 01:57
God of War is a series I love to be irritated by-- I played the first game, and found it to be generally well assembled, even if I didn't care for the aesthetic in the slightest. I always tend to like this sort of 3d-running around-slashing stuff-breaking scenery-gigantic boss type games, and I found it to be pretty fun and well done, at least until the last... third, I guess (in typical fashion, the first 2/3 of the game is tremendously designed, but it was as if they ran out of steam or creativity toward the end). The problem was (and this may seem minor to others here) I hated the fact that you could not only slaughter bystanders in order to obtain life, but that in many cases you could hardly avoid slaughtering bystanders. I understand that the game (in its ham-fisted way) is telling you that you have a choice-- go without the life, or slaughter townspeople to obtain it, but the whole thing seemed surprisingly shitty to me, and regardless of whether I'm being stupid about it or not, it made the game much less fun for me.
I've been doing some pretty serious thinking about what I think of the whole issue of ultraviolence in games like this. For me it is almost like the hyper realism allowed in the current generation has started to get to me violence-wise. Not that I'm suggesting that there should be censorship in any way-- it's just that like with how realism in games has lately come at the expense of innovative (and even fun) gameplay, I am a little afraid that super realistic violence will come at the expense of gameplay as well. But in terms of violence in general? I agree with Toxico in his case for HnK as ultraviolence with some thought behind it. Or maybe I just hate GoW because it's American and newer, and love HnK because it's Japanese and older. Who can say for sure?
Oh, as an aside:
quote:
What I do find perplexing about this little issue is how people that have absolutely no intent of posting here, can complain so much about topic addressed in these forums in such a raging manner. It's not like we care what they said, and the opposite should also be true.
It seems to be just another example of the popular internet pastime of tearing something apart as brutally (or stupidly) as possible given the anonymity of said internet. Perhaps it is just the catharsis of being mean towards something since they get picked on in their outside life or hate their parents. Also, I'm reminded of the rapier-witted fellows I went to grade school with-- I'm not sure why, but maybe it is the constant use of 'gay', 'homo', and 'faggot' as descriptors.
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| Pollyanna 2889th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Wed 24 Mar 04:36
I refuse to take part in the violence debate, but GoW3 disappointed me for a different reason. I was actually looking forward to it a bit. I thought "I've gotten used to Kratos' ugly mug...I've played some great American games lately...I'm ready this time!"
But it just felt...sloppy. The animations are original enough and cleverly thought out, but they're way too choppy and unnatural looking to come across as cool. The textures are all over the place in terms of quality, with tons of surfaces inexplicably shiny. The camera is often oddly placed, leaving me wondering what I should be focusing on. The clunky animation makes the combat seem sluggish, and it's just not that hot after Bayonetta.
I like most of the ideas that went into the game, but they don't come together very well to me. From the videos I've seen, the odd lighting issues seem to have been ironed out somewhat on the final release vs the demo, but the other things that bug me (I won't say "problems", since no one else seems to mind) remain.
Does anyone else see this, or am I just being a cunt again?
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| nobinobita 703th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(7):Mmmhh..." , posted Wed 24 Mar 04:53
quote:
awesome, well articulated, nuanced, educated post
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Conclusion: Heavy Rain is an odious pile of shit and David Cage is an embarrassment and should be banned from ever talking in public about anything.
This thread has made my day. I don't really have much to add to the current conversation, but here's something I posted for kicks on Kotaku a while back on the subject of God of War as a metaphor for the experiences of a teenage girl. It seemed to touch a few hearts:
"It would be nice if they explored the inner workings of the character to unearth the wounded child within Kratos. Kratos is a very rich and complex character.
Hopefully the author of the novel will understand the real message behind the narrative of God of War, that behind all of Kratos' gruffness, his rage, his angst, his fear and bravado, behind it all is the sensitve, scared heart of a child.
Before the game begins, Kratos is like a cocky teen. He thinks he is immortal and above all others. He belives he is free. But the moment his life is actually threatened (by the Barbarian king, who represents the unknown and foreign "barbarian" lands outside of a child's limited experiences) he calls out to Ares for help. In doing so he pledges his life to Ares. This positions Ares as his father figure. Ares saves Kratos' life, he supports him, but he also owns him, and Kratos resents this. Like an ungrateful teenager lashing out at his parents, Kratos lashes out at the gods. Even when he makes the mistake of killing his own wife and child, he does not take responsiblity for it, instead he blames it on his parents. Surely THEY were the ones that MADE him do it. Surely they created the monster he had become.
The rest of the game involves Kratos' desperate struggle to somehow find relief from his situation. He has become twisted and depressed. He writes about "the voices in his head" in a journal. He engages in loose, meaningless sex. He is armed with razor blades CHAINED to his WRISTS. Who is he cutting? His foes? Or himself? Classic teenage behavior.
In his despair, Kratos starts trying to devise ways to escape the clutches of the gods, or his parents. This is when the game really becomes challenging and becomes a metaphor for growing up. His struggle to defeat his father figure is the struggle every child goes through when it comes time to leave the shadow of your parents and find your own path. And so Kratos rages and rages and he fights tooth and nail.
But he's not fighting blindly. He is learning. He's gaining experience points, learning new and useful skills. He is growing up.
By the end of the game, as he's heading toward the final confrontation, he is not the same lost child he was at the beginning, nor the blissfully ignorant baby he was before the game even began. He is becoming his own person. Only then can he challenge his father and break free. Break free of the chains. Break free of the blades that cut into him.
Kratos has an epic shodown with Ares, that takes him within his own soul. This is where the game outright tells you that the real focus is Kratos' internal struggle. He must first rise above his own insecurities and anguish (with the help of his family's love, perhaps a mother's love?) only then can he challenge the father. The game ends with an epic clash, where Kratos has grown both symbolicaly and literally. He is colossal size. He towers above the landscape, an equal to the Titan that has ruled his life. It's a hell of a fight, but he gives it his all, and he wins.
He defeats his father. He gains his freedom.
But at what price?
His father is defeated, he's won his freedom, but the struggle isn't over. When he had an enemy, a father to oppose, he had focus. He had a purpose in life. With that gone he's suddenly got alot of time to think. To reflect. To ponder.
And that's when the sorrow seeps back in. He won his freedom, and yet he's not free of his regrets. Those old fears start creeping back. They tear him assunder, cutting as deep as ever.
In his despair Kratos decides to end it all. To end his own life. Although he has been a fighter, he does not choose the death of a warrior. He does not die in the throes of combat by a worthy foe's blade. Instead, he throws himself off a cliff. Like a maiden. Like the child he once was.
And here's where the final message is delivered. In tossing himself off the cliff like a maiden, he's not killing himself. He's killing the child he once was. He is finally saying goodbye to childish things. Before splattering on the rocks, he is saved and he is given his rightful place as a replacement of his father.
He has grown up. Become a man.
He has BECOME his father!
bluecat2095"
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| Badoor
114th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(6):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Wed 24 Mar 11:51
quote:
This is the second time you've mentioned David Cage. Did Heavy Rain leave that bad of a taste in your mouth or did you feel that Cage was giving off a general douchebag vibe in his press work for the game?
Heavy Rain combines the very worst parts of games (poor interface, clumsy unintuitive forced controls) with the very worst parts of movies (treacly acting, manipulative insincere writing). It is the worst example of either medium I've ever experienced. Early on in the game, I made a joke about what I thought would be the dumbest, clumsiest, most artificial and disingenuous way the game could end. "Hey wouldn't it be funny and offensive if this happened?" By the end of the game, I found that my joke came true.
It was the worst game I've ever played.
Thankfully 2010 has tons of other great offerings across to board to wipe it from my memory.
I'm going on the defensive side and say that Heavy Rain might be bad but at least it isn't bullshitting about what it promised, and it promised a lot.
Yes, the controls are bad and so is the acting and writing. But the fact that you could use these bad controls to influence the terribly acted and plot-hole fested story that is almost uniquely yours is what's great. This increases the frustrations with the stupid controls even more since they could possibly not allow you access to see naked boobs or could potentially lead one of the characters to turn into a hamburger for the rest of the game if your not careful, creating a very heightened sense of tension unlike anything else. Heavy Rain isn't the best game ever or such, but at least it has something different and new to offer.
In the end, David Cage is a pretentious retarded prick, but many of my favorite games are helmed by pretentious retarded pricks. And Yu Suzuki.
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| KTallguy 1193th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member+
| "Re(9):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Thu 25 Mar 12:02
I enjoyed Heavy Rain a lot actually.
It had some control clunkiness, some of the voice acting was off, the story has a few weird holes, and it started off slow. But as an experience it really left a larger impression than games like God of War leave. As I made choices in the game for the Father figure, I made them as I *think* I would have in that situation. The fact that there were times where I really didn't know what the "right" choice would be, which was refreshing.
New DS sounds ok, but I hope the tech isn't too boring/half assed.
God of War 3... my girlfriend loves that series for the gore, but she also likes Bayonetta for the different style gore and the character. I think that in the end, the game is about hitting things and the various cause and effect that stems from that. I feel like games about hitting things that try to present deeper things to the player usually fail, either because:
1. Anything deeper than "kill this dude" will sail over most people's heads.
2. Inserting numerous expository scenes usually pisses off the majority of people who just want to "kill this dude".
When people play these games a lot of them turn their brain completely off and simply get off on the visceral reaction. Bayonetta and God of War feed off of this more than anything.
Developers who want to engage the user on any deeper level need to integrate that message directly into the minute to minute gameplay and try not to annoy people in the process. Heavy Rain does this (if you can call it "gameplay"), and Umeda games do this (Ico, etc). But most games don't aspire to be something bigger than the sum of its parts (and should they try)?
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| Spoon 1919th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Fri 26 Mar 02:54
quote:
To jump at GoW and Bayonetta's defense, the amount of work necessary, from a level design point of view, to achieve that totally smooth and "leave your brain at the door" feeling is incredible. Very few game designers are able to pull out such a level of work in order for their work to look totally invisible. If that makes sense.
One of the painful things about certain tasks like engineering of supporting systems and testing is that they are things that take tremendous work to be invisible. When they aren't working right, they are gigantic, ugly pustules. When they are working right, your product is merely working "as it should be".
Considering the amount of stuff you and the enemies and the environment can do in combat in GoW and Bayonnaise and how it can be effortless for the player... that takes a lot, lot, lot of work. Good, fun, effortless gameplay only comes with tremendous effort in games with the depth and complexity of modern 3D action titles.
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| KTallguy 1196th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member+
| "Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Fri 26 Mar 11:07:
quote:
Would you mind elaborating more on those supporting systems? I'm really interested. One example should be more than enough.
A simple example is how often enemies attack you, whether they tend to attack one at a time or all at once, and finding that exact balance between not too hard and not too easy so that the player can flow from one enemy to another without feeling overwhelmed. And the attack speed and movement must be balanced to that enemy placement/attack frequency so that the flow feels right.
In Bayonetta and even Ninja Gaiden, the enemies don't all attack at once on the standard difficulty settings. There are a few who attack, a few who stand back and wait, etc. Making that feel right while making the AI "appear" to be smart, that's the challenge. If you do it right, no one will notice anything except how fun it is to kick everything's ass.
At least, I think that's the kind of thing Spoon and Iggy are talking about :)
And yes, leave your brain at the door gameplay is amazing, but we certainly have a glut of it :) I can't really complain, I love any kind of hand to hand/weapon combat game.
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
[this message was edited by KTallguy on Fri 26 Mar 11:08] |
| Toxico 4931th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(9):Re(10):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Wed 7 Apr 03:02
quote:
What was the reactions to the balance changes in the arcade version? Your "(un)balance" sorts of hints for an ugly answer, but, just for the kicks...
Hmmm I think that the reaction for the arcade version wasn't bad at all, at least from the people that liked the console version... About the game play changes it was somewhat a little odd, because they took annoying things from character that weren't top tier but could potentially be really bothersome to deal (like... Kyo-1 or Goro), and watered them down (less damage from dms, less invincibility for invincible moves). On the other hand they left tournament people's choice character essentially the same (Kasumi, Nameless, Namess, K', K', K' and maybe K'). Since 9 of every 10 asians play with K' or Nameless, I suppose we didn't heard any tough complains... But I haven't really been updated about this subject (since, I can't touch the arcade version; hence not caring). All in all, the game feels pretty much the same in either version, gameplay wise. No character lost it's backbone or gained 6 extra hands gameplay wise.
Oh, they also removed some strange in game freeze bugs, to add other game freezing bugs instead, which where much easier to trigger (like... inserting credits).
quote:
So this is the same game XBL is getting? Now we finally know why they won't release a PSN version.
Well, if they kept the ps2 3D stages... and kindly add the undeveloped stage (like the kick ass freeze executed clone lab), then no... But think of it in another scope.... Instead of simply doing a Play station best's with the original '02UM, they are updating the engine slightly for a freebie, keeping the low cost of the re release.
Also, I suppose that they are going to add an Arcade / console engine groove select in the options.
目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
Update 21 as of 29/01/10 (Temporary mega upload link).
Now sponsoring : video game analogies (ES)
Last update : Chapter 15 as of 21/01/10
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| Count Hihihi
235th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Wed 7 Apr 03:39
quote:
Hmmm I think that the reaction for the arcade version wasn't bad at all, at least from the people that liked the console version... About the game play changes it was somewhat a little odd, because they took annoying things from character that weren't top tier but could potentially be really bothersome to deal (like... Kyo-1 or Goro), and watered them down (less damage from dms, less invincibility for invincible moves). On the other hand they left tournament people's choice character essentially the same (Kasumi, Nameless, Namess, K', K', K' and maybe K'). Since 9 of every 10 asians play with K' or Nameless, I suppose we didn't heard any tough complains... But I haven't really been updated about this subject (since, I can't touch the arcade version; hence not caring). All in all, the game feels pretty much the same in either version, gameplay wise. No character lost it's backbone or gained 6 extra hands gameplay wise.
I'm actually really curious about Heidern. Did he undergo any changes for the arcade version? From what I saw, the neckroller seemed slower.
Kotaku Ono and the Fanboy spirit.
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| Spoon 1924th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(6):MvC3 rumor... again" , posted Thu 8 Apr 13:32
quote:
At this point my biggest hope for the game is that the music is as good as it was in MvC2. Thinking back on it, that intro music was great.
My big gripe with MvC2 is that it didn't seem like there were enough songs in it. SF2WW had 12 songs for the stages alone. MvC2 had 11 songs for the stages.... and that's if you counted all of Abyss's songs (which were like 2 or 3). For the sake of comparison, 3S had 16 songs for the stages (ok, one is Gill's); if you don't count Abyss, 15:8 is nearly double!
One of the strange things about 3D fighting games compared to 2D ones for me is that I can barely remember any music from 3D fighting games. I can remember the yodelling song from Tekken. I can remember... some of Sparking! because my friends went nuts about it. I don't think that their music is bad, because if it was, I probably would've remembered. But somehow, I just don't find it memorable. Well, I can still remember a few bits of Justice Gakuen here and there, but that seems to be more of an exception.
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| Nekros 260th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(1):MvC3 rumor... again" , posted Fri 9 Apr 02:46:
quote:
http://kotaku.com/5511912/marvel-vs-capcom-3-unveiling-soon
Not surprised at all.
Face the market now, it allows a MVC 3 to be.
- Marvel is big due to movies and lots of characters are well known by more public than in the 90s
- Capcom relaunch both SF and VS series with good results and positive fan attitude
- Fighting games with 2D gameplay are appreciated more than the past 5-6 years
Other operations, like MVC 2 being downloadable or announcing hints over hints openly during interviews etc, point towards MVC 3.
I don't like this franchise to death but I appreciate a 3 if we'll have a game at least fun as TVC, only with more characters.
The character roster by Capcom will probabily be more or less the roster from TVC with some fan-requested adds (Nash, Ibuki, Phoenix Wright, Ammy) and some bad guys (Vega, Wesker).
Marvel side will be easily filled with characters featured in the movies (Iron Man, Fantastic 4, Spiderman, Wolverine, Hulk, Elektra, Daredevil) plus some chars that went popolar through comics in the last 10 years (probabily Deadpool or Sentry, maybe X-23). Absolutely not obscure or freaks-to-appeal-japanese guys as Shuma-Gorath or Marrow.
[this message was edited by Nekros on Fri 9 Apr 02:48] |
| Mosquiton 1754th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(2):MvC3 rumor... again" , posted Fri 9 Apr 06:27
quote:
The character roster by Capcom will probabily be more or less the roster from TVC with some fan-requested adds (Nash, Ibuki, Phoenix Wright, Ammy) and some bad guys (Vega, Wesker).
Marvel side will be easily filled with characters featured in the movies (Iron Man, Fantastic 4, Spiderman, Wolverine, Hulk, Elektra, Daredevil) plus some chars that went popolar through comics in the last 10 years (probabily Deadpool or Sentry, maybe X-23). Absolutely not obscure or freaks-to-appeal-japanese guys as Shuma-Gorath or Marrow.
I don't Capcom can get away with the same cast they used for TVC. Roll? Saki? Batsu? Alex? Frank West? Kaijin no Soki? These guys don't exactly have broad appeal. TVC is a very Japanese-centric roster even without the Tatsunoko side.
I know Dante isn't quite as cool anymore, but come on, he'd have to be in there.
Wesker does seem like he's been groomed for this in the last few Resident Evils with all the superhuman strength and teleportation and choke-slams, etc.
I couldn't care less if Marrow doesn't come back but they should keep Spiral around. Having six arms isn't that weird, right?
/ / /
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| Just a Person 1371th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(2):MvC3 rumor... again" , posted Sat 10 Apr 00:32
quote:
The character roster by Capcom will probabily be more or less the roster from TVC with some fan-requested adds (Nash, Ibuki, Phoenix Wright, Ammy) and some bad guys (Vega, Wesker).
Marvel side will be easily filled with characters featured in the movies (Iron Man, Fantastic 4, Spiderman, Wolverine, Hulk, Elektra, Daredevil) plus some chars that went popolar through comics in the last 10 years (probabily Deadpool or Sentry, maybe X-23). Absolutely not obscure or freaks-to-appeal-japanese guys as Shuma-Gorath or Marrow.
I don't think Elektra or Daredevil have any chance to appear in a possible MvC3, at least nowadays. They got a small popularity boost with their movies, but due to the bad quality of those, the boost seems to have been short-lived.
I'd expect some of Bendis's Avengers to appear (Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, Sentry), as well as some new X-Men people (White Queen - even though her gameplay would most likely be just a mix of Psylocke and Colossus -, Nightcrawler, MAYBE Shadowcat), maybe the abomination named Red Hulk, and Thor.
It will be nice if one of the Runaways appear in it - and it wouldn't be impossible, since Marvel may want to boost their popularity for their upcoming movie. Plus, they would fit nicely with the Capcom characters (Molly Hayes specially would fit BETTER with the Capcom characters than with the Marvel ones).
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Gojira 2601th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):MvC3 rumor... again" , posted Sat 10 Apr 09:27
quote:
What did you find lacking about the animations?
I thought TvC was one of the better animated 3d fighters out there, especially in the way the movements correlated to the controls.
Most 3d fighters do alot of automated tweening from action to action (the computer automatically fills in transitions between poses), making the animation and the controls very gooey and a tad slow. Although Tatsunoko is 3d, the animation is executed more traditionally, where the characters snap from pose to pose in ways predetermined by the animators (and less automation from the computer). It's not necessarily as smooth, but it feels much crisper and more responsive and intentional. As far as I know, the only other 3d fighter that does this is Battle Fantasia.
TvC might seem a bit jerky compared to most 3d fighters, but I much prefer the varied tempo of it.
Well you just answered the question for me with that last statement. Except it doesn't just seem a bit jerky to me, it IS a bit jerky. Seeing is believing, as it were. I could say a lot more about this but I don't think anyone is completely blind to it. Some people like it because it's jerky, which is just weird to me.
Also, it's interesting you bring tweening up; what exactly gave you this impression? Because when I look at TvC and BF... I see games that are relying heavily on tweening to animate. I'd always conceded that it was like that because they were using a process to create and add characters as quickly as possible with simple animations, so how they moved would inevitably dip in quality. But if your impression is that they rarely use any tweening at all, I'm not sure why they would do that.
shipoopi
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| Just a Person 1374th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(4):MvC3 rumor... again" , posted Sat 10 Apr 10:21
quote:
It will be nice if one of the Runaways appear in it - and it wouldn't be impossible, since Marvel may want to boost their popularity for their upcoming movie.
Is that the comic where someone's mutant ability is that they have a pet Velociraptor?
Yup. It's not a mutant ability, though: each one of them has a different origin for their superpowers, although all of them inherit (directly or not) their powers from their parents: one is the daughter of an alien race, one is the daughter of dark sorcerers, there's even a son of Ultron in it (although he only meets the other Runaways much later in the series).
Molly, the youngest kid, is the only mutant one (and one of the few mutants in the Marvel Earth that kept her powers after the M-Day). Gertrude "Gert" Yorkes, daughter of evil time-travelers, is the one who inherited a dinosaur with whom she shares an artificial psychic link (artificial in the sense she's not a telepath, her parents designed Old Lace, the dinosaur, to have this link, probably using Gert's DNA in Old Lace's creation).
Both Gert and Old Lace are currently dead in the story, sadly.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Spoon 1928th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(3):Japan loevs their dungeon crawlan..." , posted Sun 11 Apr 05:02
quote:
Even with Hokuto Musou, F.O.E.!
Because roguelikes are the only games worth playing. For me, lately, anyway. People have been rocking Fuurai No Shiren for the better part of 14 years. It's like the back of the box says, "The game you can play 1000 times and never stop having fun!" Or rather, I suspect people keep buying new roguelikes because they want one that's as perfect at Fuurai...they won't find it, but it doesn't keep them from adventuring into the proverbial mysterious dungeon of new games to find them! I hear this is a good one, the one you have linked.
I don't know if you could really compare Etrian Odyssey to a roguelike, because it really isn't. Etrian Odyssey is a game about grinding and numbers (or sometimes, the numbers the game DOESN'T tell you, which gets infuriating), and not about whether or not you are clever enough to use a Staff of Paralyze on the enemy at the chokepoint to prevent the others from swarming you and killing you by making you starve to death with their attacks.
I just hope that they do something about the rewards for FOE kills in EO3. In EO2, they no longer gave experience, and their item drops weren't usually amazing enough to compensate for that.
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| sfried 519th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(4):Japan loevs their dungeon crawlan..." , posted Sun 11 Apr 05:36:
quote:
I don't know if you could really compare Etrian Odyssey to a roguelike, because it really isn't. Etrian Odyssey is a game about grinding and numbers
STOP right there. Etrian is definitely not about grinding, and you could care less about the numbers if you know what you're doing (i.e. status effects and buffs play a major role as opposed to most RPGs). The enemies in this game teach this the hard way, so you will be screwed if you didn't assign those tech points once you step into the first labyrinth. Like Shiren, being cleaver and prepared IS the major point of the game (and not just mash attack/save TP for the bosses). It doesn't hold your hand, I admit, but neither is it unfair if you didn't heed its warnings beforehand.
FOEs in EO3/SQ3 are said to give experience like in EO1, but just like in that game, FOEs aren't meant to be killed in your first encounter, and are largly for avoidance.
[this message was edited by sfried on Sun 11 Apr 05:41] |
| Spoon 1929th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(5):Japan loevs their dungeon crawlan..." , posted Sun 11 Apr 07:21
quote:
I don't know if you could really compare Etrian Odyssey to a roguelike, because it really isn't. Etrian Odyssey is a game about grinding and numbers STOP right there. Etrian is definitely not about grinding, and you could care less about the numbers if you know what you're doing (i.e. status effects and buffs play a major role as opposed to most RPGs). The enemies in this game teach this the hard way, so you will be screwed if you didn't assign those tech points once you step into the first labyrinth. Like Shiren, being cleaver and prepared IS the major point of the game (and not just mash attack/save TP for the bosses). It doesn't hold your hand, I admit, but neither is it unfair if you didn't heed its warnings beforehand.
FOEs in EO3/SQ3 are said to give experience like in EO1, but just like in that game, FOEs aren't meant to be killed in your first encounter, and are largly for avoidance.
Being prepared is part of it, but it's pretty hard for me to believe that the game isn't about grinding when it simply isn't possible to do certain things without levelling. It doesn't matter how clever you are; you aren't going to beat the first Stalker or Ragelope you meet with a low level party. Or if you do, it's probably just because of Poison, and you're going to have to run back home anyway because half your party is dead.
The dungeon layouts are static, the only enemies that can be avoided by manual maneuvering have predefined placement and behaviour, and there's no real influence of the environment on combat; when you are fighting, you are in the "combat game", and when you are walking around, you are in the "exploring game". Skills and builds are very important, but those are predicated by levelling.
EO is quite a good dungeon crawler, but I just don't think that it can be categorized as a roguelike. SMT games all about preparation, too, but they certainly aren't roguelikes.
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| sfried 520th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(6):Japan loevs their dungeon crawlan..." , posted Sun 11 Apr 08:01:
quote:
Being prepared is part of it, but it's pretty hard for me to believe that the game isn't about grinding when it simply isn't possible to do certain things without levelling. It doesn't matter how clever you are; you aren't going to beat the first Stalker or Ragelope you meet with a low level party. Or if you do, it's probably just because of Poison, and you're going to have to run back home anyway because half your party is dead.
The whole idea is to avoid the encounters with the Stalker and Rangelope. F.O.E.s are considered deathtraps in their own right, and it isn't necessary to have to defeat (and in fact, the game HIGHLY RECOMMENDS that you avoid) them since they are intentionally several levels above your range, and the very fact that you CAN run away from them means that the are meant to be dealt with later in case certain quests ask you to backtrack to lower levels.
Another thing to keep in mind is that all F.O.E.s have a scouting pattern, and if you observed carefully, it's usually circular. Pay attention if they spotted you (you can see the F.O.E. turn red on the map screen indicating that they are pursuing).
It is entirely possible to beat the game with some carefull management and common sense tacticts. Wiping out these respawning orange balls is not one of them. Another thing to keep in mind is always have a balanced party and make sure you cover your bases. Having a Protector and Troubadour is very usefull as buff and status effect spells are a necessity in Etrian Odyssey as opposed to most other RPGs.
tl;dr - Stop grinding and use a Protector + Front Guard. And stop chasing F.O.E.s at every new floor. You'll die a lot less.
P.S. The maps aren't entirely static. There are some areas with secret passages in them, and some of them spawn an F.O.E. after opening a treasure chest, etc.
[this message was edited by sfried on Sun 11 Apr 08:16] |
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"Re(7):Re(10):Mmmhh..." , posted Wed 24 Mar 06:29
