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|  "Re(1):The Expatriate thread" , posted Sat 21 Jan 07:18  
quote:
Since Ishmael brought it up, I thought I'd start a thread about living outside the country where you currently live.
Here on the Cafe we're an international crowd, and I know for a fact that there are quite a few folks here who also left the country of their origin to live someplace else.
So yeah. Now that a Disappointing Series of Events has overtaken the US, I think folks are considering making the jump to live someplace else, myself included.
Do any of our expatriate comrades here have any suggestions?
So much to choose from, there is always an option living somewhere in the world. Like Mosquito say, it depends what you like and or what you want to do. From getting away from the social world and live in an island, you can live in places like Martinique, Guadeloupe, Reunión, Mauritius, Vanuatu, or Solomon Islands.
Want to relax and just kick back with what you have? Go to Costa Rica, Guyana, Azores, Tahiti, Cape Verde, Dominica, Bhutan, Zanzibar, and Nepal (outside of kathmandu).
Want to do some small business or something for work? I would say Belize, Panama, Brazil (but the south if you want something more stable and less civil problems), Ghana, Fiji, Botswana and hhhmmm not sure in Asia. I think Asia has more option for serious employment and career opportunities available. Same for other parts of the world.
But that and this topic can go on for a while. I love talking about the world it's endless :)
Long Live I AM!
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| "Re(2):The Expatriate thread" , posted Sat 21 Jan 09:31:
To focus away from a broad travel thread and into expatriate/migrant living thread, the first thing is probably to ask yourself what you want out of the move. While plenty of the Cafe has bounced around between cities and continents for the sake of new experiences/jobs (hello!), living away from your home country takes on a different light if it's to get away from something---and it's worth remembering that in the case of the US, it's your country as much as the assholes who have started running it, and you may be able to help someone! Not that you have to be a saint and stay somewhere you don't want to be, though!
Language ability and/or the nature of the expat community matching your language(s) matter a lot! This impacts both your quality of life and the job market. For instance, I cannot imagine what English-only expats are doing wandering around confusedly in a cesspit like Roppongi, but I know people who get on famously in Singapore! I've been to Costa Rica a fair amount, and there seem to be a number of English- and French/German-speaking retirees with their own places off in the jungle, and their home currency will go far. Lots of Japanese skip town for Australia and find a nice community there. A lot depends on what community you can join based on language or job or culture.
Although the old "moving to Canada" trope is still good (if you have a job there). Unlike the UK (British people are bizarrely different from Americans, who are bizarrely different from most people), your US-to-Canada transition would be easier since you don't need a linguistic or cultural community for all intents and purposes. Beyond getting used to a less populated but less annoying version of the US. Even the stereotypical surly kid punching tickets at the movie theater is polite! It's weird!
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 21 Jan 09:54] |
| | "Re(2):The Expatriate thread" , posted Sun 22 Jan 03:02:
quote:
Stay away from Europe.
At the very least, don't get close to England, France and Germany before end of 2017. Spain and Portugal may be OK for a bit more time... But who knows.
I'm actually half-seriously considering retirement in Barcelona. I genetically need the Mediterranean next to me, and Barcelona is the best Mediterranean city I've seen.
I know this will come as a terrible surprise but ... of course I'm gonna have to recommend you move to Chiang Mai!
Here are the Pros and Cons.
I will get the bad stuff out of the way first.
1) Pollution. The air quality here just isn't as good as the US, especially during burning season, which lasts up to 4 months!
2) More pollution: Emissions standards just aren't enforced. There are a ton of diesel vehicles on the road.
3) Asbestos: Thailand is one of 4 countries that still uses this garbage. There are too many big companies invested in this stuff to get it banned here. Thankfully it's easy to avoid if you live in an apartment.
So that's the worst of it. As long as you are careful about checking daily pollution levels (there are websites for this) it's not hard to plan around it. Also it's not a total nightmare like Beijing (with air quality literally equivalent to a coal mine on bad days), but it's also not up to the standards of most of North America and Western Europe.
OK here are the good things for anyone who wants to move here!
1) The people
Thai people are generally very nice and polite and noticeably happier than the global average (I have no concrete proof of this, but you can feel it). Chiang Mai is particularly laid back. People like to take it easy. For me this is a big plus.
2) The Traditional Culture
Thailand was never colonised. Because of this they have a pride in their own culture that feels very natural and unforced. There are beautiful temples everywhere. Kids will respectfully wai (slight bow with palms clasped) at shrines when they walk by. On Fridays kids dress up in the clothing of their ancestors so its common to see kids in adorable traditional garb (even foreign kids are encouraged to do this!)
3) The Food
It's awesome. Street Food. Junk Food. Nice sit down restaurants. Even the 7-11 frozen microwave meals. They are all tasty. Also SUPER CHEAP. Of all the places I've ever been, Thailand has the best tastiness to cost ratio by far.
4) The Food Again
Not just Thai food, there are now quality restaurants of all kinds in Chiang Mai. I'm so pleased to be able to get decent cheese and craft beers easily!
5) Produce/Vegetarian Food
Haha sorry I just really like food. Karasu this particularly pertains to you. If you know where to go, there are lots of excellent Vegan restaurants. The big supermarkets even carry things like dehydrated vegetable proteins and lots of different kinds of tofu. Also, just in general the produce in Thailand is excellent. There's actually a big "frutatarian" expat community in Chiangmai! Some famous youtubers live out here (look up "Durian Rider")
6) Comfortable cheap accommodations
You can live in a cheap, clean hotel room for less than $300 a month. They'll change your bedsheets and everything too. If you want to live in a house it could be even cheaper if you look around.
7) Super socially progressive
Thailand is very accepting of LGBTQ people. While America is blowing a gasket just coming to terms with the mere concept of trans people, in Thailand i see trans men and women every day just as a course of life. When I put out a job listing looking for artists, about 20% of the applicants were trans women. How did I know? Because they included photos of themselves and listed being part of trans clubs/dance troupes as part of their resume. They were proud of it! It's nothing to hide. When I watch TV I'll randomly see trans hosts of TV shows, or singers. It's just a normal thing here.
Being gay/lesbian is also generally very accepted. I think most members of this board are wordly enough to know of Thailand's reputation as one of the great gay partying destinations. But it's also a great place for lesbians. I've seen more women couples out here than anywhere else I've ever lived. Like, you'll even see high school girls holdin hands and smoochin on the bridge at night. People can generally live and love as they like here.
Unfortunately the government hasn't really caught up, so gay people can't technically get married. Thailand also doesn't really even have a real working constitution like the US (I'd say this is also a con, but it doesn't affect foreigners so much). The laws can be quite archaic. But the actual people are very open minded.
8) Theravada Buddhism
I really like the particular brand of Buddhism practiced in Thailand. It is exceedingly practical. I'll give you an example. My younger brother became a monk for a week (it's a common custom). The first sermon the head abbot gave his new incoming group was about how "all the stories you read, they are metaphorical. You don't have to believe in them literally, just the values that they impart. But if someone chooses to believe in them literally you should not look down on them for it." I wish the rest of the world could be so kind.
9) Everyone is kind of nerdy
If I meet someone under 40 there's a good chance I can talk to them about Dragon Ball or Slam Dunk or Final Fantasy. Hell, I did a talk at a college last year and kids there still knew what Pepsiman was! I did a user test on my game recently. I specifically found people who did not identify as gamers. I had one woman tell me "Oh I'm not a gamer at all." And then when I asked her if she used to play games she was like "oh yeah I played a ton of Street Fighter when I was in college." But she did not consider herself a gamer, even then!
I asked some local friends if there was even a Thai word for nerd. They said that the word "nerd" itself has been imported in recent years. But when he was a kid there was no concept of a nerd in general. It was more like you were "crazy" for cars or "crazy" for comics. It was more about being into a particular thing than a general lifestyle.
10) Easy to get around with just English
I should confess here, that to my great shame, I don't really speak Thai. I spent too much time in the USA and my family speaks Chinese at home so I forgot almost all of it. However it's been SUPER EASY to get around in Chiang Mai because everyone here speaks a little English. They all learn it in school and get to practice it regularly since there are so many tourists.
Also there's just a huge English speaking immigrant population in general. If you move here it will be very very easy to meet other foreigners. There are book clubs, trivia nights, facebook groups, schools etc etc. I could very realistically make a new English speaking friend every time I go out for coffee. Not exaggerating.
11) TLDR
Sorry this is turning into such a huge word dump! I just ... really like talking bout Thailand!
In summary: Chiang Mai is a great place to live. It's super affordable without any kind of sacrifice. It is safe and comfortable to live here. There is great food everywhere. It's very vegan friendly. The people are super nice. You can leave your bike out and it won't get stolen. Locals generally won't rip you off, even if you are obviously a foreigner (unlike Bangkok or the beach towns). There is a great cafe culture with free wifi everywhere. And to top it all off it's easy to get around only speaking English.
I highly recommend you spend some time here if you want to get away from the States for a while. It's not hard to stay for 9 months on tourist visas. You just have to make a border run every 3 months (not hard).
If you really really like it here you can apply for a student visa, work visa (teach English!), even a HAND TO HAND COMBAT VISA.
Dammit I'm rambling again, anyway. I really like it here. I think you will too!
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Sun 22 Jan 03:03] |
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| "Re(3):The Expatriate thread" , posted Sun 22 Jan 10:38
quote:
As one of the people who live in a place where their vote didn't matter I'm staying because the whole "I'm moving to Canada" thing is more humorous than serious. While I do know people who live in Canada all of my assets are still tied to the US so moving to Canada is completely pointless.
Basically it boils down to principle vs. pragmatism and I'm choosing pragmatism because throwing away money on principle should only be done when you can still recover it later.
This is also something that does get a bit more difficult as you get older. Studying abroad and learning a language are great ins, and if you can travel a bit you may find places that suit your temperament so you might better plan to set yourself up in a new place.
Money is definitely a factor as well, of course. It's certainly nothing to take lightly, and the US holds onto its citizens with a tight grip, creating additional challenges when you look at things like taxes, for example.
But at the same time is never too late to think of something you want and take steps to do it. If you are willing to roll with consequences, your possibility space may be much broader than you think.
As for where one should feel guilty about abandoning your countrymen, that's your call to make. You don't chose where you are born, but you can choose where you call home.
If you know or want to learn multiple languages, where ever you go you can start of as being a translator for many types of employment. Even teaching other languages can bring in some money as well. That would be a good start wherever you go once you settle in, understand the economy, and decide what would be the best profession you want to work on there.
Long Live I AM!
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| "Re(4):The Expatriate thread" , posted Sun 22 Jan 18:30:
I can't vouch for Italy as a place to move to, and it really hurts me because I love my homeland from a romantic point of view. But as for practical things go, IMO you can only move to Italy if you're rich enough not to have to worry about your health, bills and stuff in the slightest. I'm about to challenge my own heart to detail what's wrong with my country.
WARNING: it's a very grim account, make sure you can stomach it. Sorry for pestering the Cafe with this stuff, but I feel it's my duty as a regular user to contribute to this thread. I admit I may have subconsciously exaggerated some statements, so don't take it for a gospel of the Italian dystopia.
Public healthcare is a nightmare, with excruciating wait times in ERs -some days ago a lady past her 80s here in Taranto was forced to wait 9 hours on a stretcher because Italian ERs work under a "there's always somebody who's in worse conditions than you" philosophy, even though her conditions were serious, and her son made the story get headlines on local newspaper as a means of protest-, and even worse wait times -up to more than 12 months- for potentially lifesaving examinations. Private healthcare is slowly turning alike its public counterpart. You want to apply for free healthcare services? You must be unemployed or a total tax evader (see below in the "money" paragraph). All this really disgusts me because I'm a fucking idealist and I deeply believe in the old saying "when there's health, there's everything.
Concerning social life, same sex marriage regulations have just come true, but Italy is a land with an oppressive, widespread non-culture of pejoratively labeling you as gay if you're a nice guy -I know it happens just about everywhere, but Nobi's wonderful tale of Chiang Mai* makes me hope it isn't so hard there for men who aren't rude assholes- or nun if you're a woman who doesn't go around showing off your goods through deep cleavages and microskirts 24/7, let alone if you're attracted by people of your same sex.
Keeping the streets clean is an optional here in the South. I live a couple meters away from a busy shopping street and it just takes me to peek from the balcony to see a delightful garbage bags art installation around the bins most of the time. You have to wait for the monthly cleaning to see the bins in a decent condition for a couple days.
Money? Fiscal pressure is infuriating if you're an employee, whereas you can easily evade your taxes almost completely for a lifetime if you're self-employed. You're looking for a clerk job in order to tentatively make some bucks? Most shops demand of them to be already experienced. Duh. Family business seem to be the only ones which go relatively well, especially restaurants and pizzerias. Don't ever dream to get a job there because they have a strong tendency to only employ their close relatives. I asked four of such businesses in a day some years ago and I got rejected from them all.
Last but not least, building regulations infringment is all the rage. The recent tragedy which plagued an hotel in Abruzzo could have been avoided because it originally was a farmhouse -or something else, there are conflicting reports about it, but it used to be a much humbler building- unlawfully turned into a big, full featured hotel, there was a trial but everyone got absolved. Besides, the attendants had figured out in advance that the weather was getting catastrophic, to the point they had prepared their luggage to leave the hotel, but they couldn't leave it because there was too much snow and the snowploughs didn't manage to get near the hotel in time. And now we're mourning the death of a lot of people because we're laid back in the most negative way: don't care about a thing until a tragedy happens, then cry about how it could have been avoided.
TL:DR; Italy is sublime for a vacation, but stay away from it as a place to live if your wealth isn't Kanzuki tier.
*Nobi, please don't be afraid of having talked a lot, I read it all in a couple minutes and I enjoyed it from the bottom of my heart.
Ore no...kachi da!!
[this message was edited by Micky Kusanagi on Mon 23 Jan 01:48] |
| | "Re(1):The Expatriate thread" , posted Mon 23 Jan 11:26
quote:
Since Ishmael brought it up, I thought I'd start a thread about living outside the country where you currently live.
Here on the Cafe we're an international crowd, and I know for a fact that there are quite a few folks here who also left the country of their origin to live someplace else.
So yeah. Now that a Disappointing Series of Events has overtaken the US, I think folks are considering making the jump to live someplace else, myself included.
Do any of our expatriate comrades here have any suggestions?
Hey, why don't you come to Japan? You already know the place and all that has to offer, and the Cafe community here would make great neighbors!
Now, I'm only half joking. Japan is not exactly the cheapest place in Asia, so that could be a hurdle, but coming from the States I don't think you are new to high price tags everywhere. And, as you also know first hand, Japan is expensive only if you want it to be expensive. If you don't mind to move, live and eat like the locals, even Tokyo can be super affordable to live.
Granted, to be truly happy in Japan you would have to learn the language, so I'd say that Japanese classes are a must. But the good news is that it's OK if you can't read the complete works of Mishima Yukio in Japanese; you don't have to be super proficient to be able to enjoy your way around and mingle with the locals. With some effort and interest, if you commit yourself to it, you can totally achieve a decent level in about one year. Specially if you are living in the country, since you'll have plenty of opportunities to learn and practice. And, for a subculture and videogame lover such as you, being proficient in Japanese would be a nice skill to have even when/if you return to the States! It's a win-win situation, ha ha.
Getting a visa can be a tricky thing, but somebody with good programming skills should not have too much trouble landing a job here, no matter his/her Japanese level. And I think working holidays visas are available for US citizens as well? That seems like an awesome way to spend a year in Japan I think.
I keep hearing good things about Thailand as well. A a lot of people from Europe have found a real home there, and I can totally see why. Awesome food, super affordable prices, nice people, great climate, a lot of cultural stuff to enjoy, an amazing bar and club scene for party animals... I don't know Chiang Mai first hand (plan to go there soon, though!), but pretty much anywhere in Thailand seems like a great place to retire for a while, until the storm is over.
Singapore is also awesome and very English-friendly, but perhaps it's a bit less authentic than other places in SE Asia, and the prices can be even higher than Tokyo or Hong Kong. In any case you'll find lots of amazing street food for dirty cheap prices, and probably lots of job opportunities on the programming field as well. I've heard that the government there does a lot to promote entrepreneurs and bolster small-medium sized companies on the IT sector, which includes videogames as well.
As for Europe, I would avoid it for the time being. Like, for the next 200 years or so. (And yeah, I'm European myself.)
A Talking about Japanese History sword in hand
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| "Re(2):The Expatriate thread" , posted Mon 23 Jan 20:00
quote:
Stay away from Europe.
At the very least, don't get close to England, France and Germany before end of 2017. Spain and Portugal may be OK for a bit more time... But who knows.
Having moved from Portugal to the Netherlands for work, I wonder if I'm far enough from Germany - it's kinda disturbing when you hear about Geert Wilders here more than you do about any other politician actually in power right now. Then again, I still have a lot of problems parsing Dutch as it is, and probably miss a lot.
You can mostly get by over here with English, but stuff like tax forms end up requiring Google Translate - no matter how much the narrative of a European Union is pushed, some things never really accommodate for the variety of languages that would imply.
If the economy and job prospects were better in Portugal I'd still be there. As a country that's far away from everyone else in Europe, a factor of near-irrelevance that helped it dodge a couple of world wars in the continent, it also suffers from an international sense of "nobody cares" that makes it an easy target of economic sanctions to serve as an example to everyone else while affecting almost nobody else directly.
Comparing both countries, Portugal always wins in terms of food and weather, and it's little wonder that it's becoming Europe's Florida in the sense that a lot of people from other countries nowadays choose to retire there, or at least pick it as a frequent vacations spot - with a less regular economic situation, it can be a tricky place to live in.
In terms of similarities, both countries have a weird common history including colonial baggage and conflicts with Spain - but despite the fact that the Netherlands seems to have done a lot better economically after those heydays, they still seem to have some latent complex regarding their size and relevance.
Both seems a bit lacking when it comes to geek culture events, with one or two major events per year - over here, the Red Fight District fighting game tournament basically didn't even happen last year, and the year when it had KoF XIII, basically only players from abroad play that, to put things into perspective. Europe being Europe, major football events will always trump that sort of thing in the public eye.
Every time I go back to Portugal for vacation the place just feels a bit more degraded and cheap, perhaps due to the comparison with the Netherlands, but it's still home...
I have quite a few friends currently living in the UK, mostly near London, and it's pretty tempting to look for something there. since I miss that gang, most of which left Portugal because the economy's been in the shitter, but the prospect of Brexit complicates things, even if some claim that'll amount to nothing - I'm not so sure about that...
...!!
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| "Re(3):The Expatriate thread" , posted Fri 27 Jan 06:18
Thanks everybody for the replies and the info!
In truth, there are plenty of things preventing me from leaving the States, like local and family roots, friends, and not least of all my wife's work, which has a limited set of countries from which she's able to work remotely (sorry Nobi, but Thailand is explicitly forbidden-- we checked!).
Honestly, if I had wanted to leave in my twenties (which I did) I should have done it then, since as you get older it becomes more and more difficult to make big changes like this.
Maese, I think we'll have to come do a Super Month Long Visit to Japan sometime soon! I may end up attending Bitsummit and Tokyo Indie Fest this year, so maybe then?
You have to carefully reproduce the world of "Castlevania" in the solemn atmosphere.
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"The Expatriate thread" , posted Sat 21 Jan 02:41
"Re(5):The Expatriate thread" , posted Wed 1 Feb 00:06
