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nobinobita
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"I Spit on your Tomb (Raider)" , posted Fri 10 Jun 05:03:post reply

New Tomb Raider Gameplay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6T-nF6mfVw

I like the idea that the game is really trying to convey how grueling the hero's task is. But I also can't help but feel that it has the same lurid vibe as an exploitation flick. They may have shrunk her boobs, but this game feels much more sexually charged than the ones before it. It seems like most of the game involves Laura writhing in agony as things paw and grope at her.

Can you imagine a game where a young Nathan Drake grunts and squeels in such a suggestive manner every time he jumps?






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[this message was edited by nobinobita on Fri 10 Jun 09:28]

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Toxico
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"Re(1):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 10 Jun 05:28post reply

quote:

Can you imagine a game where a young Nathan Drake grunts and squeels in such a suggestive manner every time he jumps?



Don't even ask me to push the limits of what my imagination can do, kiddo.







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kofoguz
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"Re(1):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 10 Jun 05:30post reply

quote:
New Tomb Raider Gameplay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6T-nF6mfVw

I like the idea that the game is really trying to convey how grueling the hero's task is. But I also can't help but feel that it has the same lurid vibe as an exploitation flick. They may have shrunk her boobs, but this game feels much more sexually charged than the ones before it. It seems like most of the game involves Laura writhing in agony as things paw and grope at her.

Can you imagine a game where a young Nathan Drake grunts and squeels in such a suggestive manner every time he jumps?

Spot on! I had the volume down cause I was seriously worried that people around me might hear it and think I'm watching porno loudly.





nobinobita
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"Re(2):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 10 Jun 05:38post reply

quote:

Can you imagine a game where a young Nathan Drake grunts and squeels in such a suggestive manner every time he jumps?


Don't even ask me to push the limits of what my imagination can do, kiddo.



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Pollyanna
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"Re(1):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 10 Jun 06:01post reply

Maybe that's her "injured" sound set. I mean, I guess she could be freaked out for the entire game, but that would get kind of old after a while.

I like how her breathing and sounds help contribute to the narrative (along with her animations). If shes moves in and out of "injured/panicked" and "normal" it can bridge the gap between the cinematic and gameplay elements.

Tomb Raider was never high class, so if they can make it more sexy and more realistic, then they're doing a good job, as far as I'm concerned. I think her heavy breathing and such sticks out, not because it's super exaggerated, but because it's not what we're used to hearing in games. Most developers would probably hold back on something like that because it would either be too much trouble or too annoying. My problem is that her VOICE is too annoying.





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karasu99
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"Re(2):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 10 Jun 08:44post reply

quote:
My problem is that her VOICE is too annoying.


That was my thought too! I had a good late-afternoon laugh about kofoguz having to turn down his volume!

I did think the fire was pretty well done though.





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"Re(2):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 10 Jun 13:27:post reply

quote:
squeels in such a suggestive manner every time he jumps?
Don't even ask me to push the limits of what my imagination can do, kiddo.
グ、グレート!
How appropriate...I just saw an advertisement for Duke Nukem Forever at a bus stop, speaking of the lurid 90's.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 10 Jun 13:28]

kofoguz
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"Re(3):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 10 Jun 16:55post reply

quote:
My problem is that her VOICE is too annoying.

That was my thought too! I had a good late-afternoon laugh about kofoguz having to turn down his volume!

I did think the fire was pretty well done though.

Well to be clear not my volume, the video's since it's not young Nathan Drake!





Mosquiton
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"Re(1):I Spit on your Tomb (Raider)" , posted Fri 10 Jun 17:05post reply

quote:
New Tomb Raider Gameplay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6T-nF6mfVw

I like the idea that the game is really trying to convey how grueling the hero's task is. But I also can't help but feel that it has the same lurid vibe as an exploitation flick.



Huh. I think you might be onto something... but I can live with that. Exploitation films can be powerful, evocative, and hugely entertaining. And hey, if they moved away from the casual slaughter of generic henchman and exotic animals and give their violence some edge it could be pretty amazing. If Lara pulled some Foxy Brown shit on some antagonists that had been built up enough I would be 120 percent behind it.





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Ishmael
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"Re(1):I Spit on your Tomb (Raider)" , posted Sat 11 Jun 00:46post reply

quote:
New Tomb Raider Gameplay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6T-nF6mfVw

I like the idea that the game is really trying to convey how grueling the hero's task is. But I also can't help but feel that it has the same lurid vibe as an exploitation flick.


Seeing as how this new Tomb Raider game is an interactive exploitation flick I would say it's a job well done. For all the sophisticated technology used to make games they don't always have the most sophisticated of source materials. Personally, I always found it funny that Resident Evil 2 probably needed more resources than Assault on Precinct 13, Dawn of the Dead and other films it draws inspiration from. That link between games and low art is necessarily a bad or unexpected thing. Games need to establish a connection with players as quickly as possible and the primary emotions that drive-in films work in is as good a method as any.

I just wish that Lara's voice was a bit better. My guess is that they wanted to create a sense of exhaustion and claustrophobia by having her own breath ringing in her ears but instead it's just loud. Perhaps it will work better in the game instead of on YouTube? I'll be curious to try out the game and find out.

quote:
Can you imagine a game where a young Nathan Drake grunts and squeels in such a suggestive manner every time he jumps?
Uncharted 2 opens with Nathan in a similarly dire situation. He's injured and in a dangerous situation where the enviornment and people are trying to kill him. What makes that scenerio different from the one Lara is in? The setting? The sound? The context? A double standard based on Lara's gender?

Speaking of grindhouse fun, I should bring back my old Meiko Kaji tag. I miss her righteous fury staring out from the bottom of my posts.





karasu99
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"Re(4):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Sat 11 Jun 01:30post reply

quote:

Well to be clear not my volume, the video's since it's not young Nathan Drake!


HA! Yeah, true! I stand corrected!

Something else I was thinking of in relation to the video-- after Ishmael's comment about the beginning of Uncharted 2-- is how clichéd the opening scene is in the Tomb Raider video; I'm talking about the whole 'fade in with Lara head-up, then slow rotate to show she's upside down' thing. I just think I've seen that exact thing done about a hundred times in film. Not that tons of video games don't already rip each other off like mad, but this is an especially blatant example. Maybe it's because I always roll my eyes about exactly this kind of thing in film.





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"Re(5):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Sat 11 Jun 03:39post reply

Once a friend of mine asked if it was possible to have pain sounds for female characters that weren't vaguely/explicitly erotic sounding. I don't actually know the answer to that question. In contrast, there are tons of generic male pain grunts/barks/shouts/whatevers that nobody thinks twice about.

Polly kind of hit the point that I wanted to chime in with, in that it'd be really odd if an attempt to make Lara more vulnerable/grounded in reality is to show her seriously injured as a result of getting in trouble the way an adventurer would. But if this injury wasn't reflected in her audio/visual/animation, it'd be unbelievable and fly in the face of the entire initial motivation.

But given that Lara Croft was made to be a sex symbol, I'm not sure how we could ever see her getting thrust into danger or made to get her hands dirty, especially with HD AAA standards of fidelity, in some way that wouldn't come across as exploitive without being really sterile/boring.





Baines
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"Re(6):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Sat 11 Jun 04:08post reply

quote:
Once a friend of mine asked if it was possible to have pain sounds for female characters that weren't vaguely/explicitly erotic sounding. I don't actually know the answer to that question.


The most common answer is "no".

I think it can be done, but no one does it.

Not to sound sexist, but I think some of it comes down to the women doing the sounds. They sound too much like acting, not actual pain.

It doesn't help that men have been repeatedly exposed to similar acting sounds for sexual situations, whether it be from porn (often with bad acting), movies sex scenes in general (not great acting), or girlfriends/wives/etc.





kofoguz
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"Re(6):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Sat 11 Jun 06:04post reply

quote:
Once a friend of mine asked if it was possible to have pain sounds for female characters that weren't vaguely/explicitly erotic sounding. I don't actually know the answer to that question. In contrast, there are tons of generic male pain grunts/barks/shouts/whatevers that nobody thinks twice about.
This, is something I would think twice about. Same volume alarms, both from me and the video.





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"Re(2):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 17 Jun 06:56post reply

quote:
Spot on! I had the volume down cause I was seriously worried that people around me might hear it and think I'm watching porno loudly.



AAAawwwwwwww, come on, is just that lara in not lara anymore, is a weak woman who is no used to go on adventure and she get fatigued easily and have respiratory problems hehehheheheheh.

Anyway, what’s surprise me about the game was that eidos is not doing the game anymore, right? It was square-enix and other company, right?.

This is a big sing of a failure like the crash series when Konami bought that crappy franchise. How konami could do such a thing.





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Pollyanna
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"Re(3):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 17 Jun 08:08post reply

I just realized, posting in the 3DS thread, that there is a male character who makes noises I don't like. Mario. He sounds like a pervert to me. His noises are more distasteful to my ears than Lara's.

But Lara's voice still reigns supreme as most distasteful. I understand that they didn't want to change it too much so that "It's still Lara", but she sounds too old. It doesn't match her cute look.

quote:

Anyway, what’s surprise me about the game was that eidos is not doing the game anymore, right? It was square-enix and other company, right?.



Square-Enix purchased Eidos, so it's one in the same now.





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exodus
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"Re(4):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 17 Jun 09:29post reply

well, I mean, it is kind of torture porn. I would find it very hard to enjoy playing this, with the hero getting so constantly mangled (whilst also not dying, which makes no sense). certainly it's intense, but I'm not sure I feel it's a good thing.

If they're going gritty, how far will they go? will she be raped?

Is this a quest for survival, or an adventure? seems more the former.

I can't really judge it yet, but it definitely makes me a bit ill already.





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"Re(5):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 17 Jun 09:31post reply

it's a problem when you pair "gritty realism" with lara's "survival vision" which allows her to easily see whatever will help her escape. I have more problems with it thematically and tonally than just the moaning.





Spoon
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"Re(5):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Fri 17 Jun 10:18post reply

quote:
well, I mean, it is kind of torture porn. I would find it very hard to enjoy playing this, with the hero getting so constantly mangled (whilst also not dying, which makes no sense). certainly it's intense, but I'm not sure I feel it's a good thing.

If they're going gritty, how far will they go? will she be raped?

Is this a quest for survival, or an adventure? seems more the former.

I can't really judge it yet, but it definitely makes me a bit ill already.



I always wonder just how hurt should video game characters be before it's "too much".
In MK9, the x-ray views of people getting their bones broken/teeth knocked out/organs ruptured I can easily stomach because the view is just so clinical. Sure the animations are violent, the models detailed, and the timing such that it maximizes the sense of what is going on, but in the end it's still about as gritty as seeing the biology lab dummy get beat up. Never mind the characters getting up right away afterwards as if nothing had happened, some of the stuff plain doesn't make sense (like how the teeth of mask wearing ninjas manage to fly out in the cutscene). The representation of the damage on the characters afterwards is largely textural (no bones jutting out or heads caved in once we go out of x-ray view).

Still, when Kitana does her winpose afterwards and I see her all bloodied (and not just with her opponent's blood), it makes me a little uneasy. Now, if she smiled her smile and I could see all the missing teeth from when her opponent x-ray'd her complete with all the oozing that accompanies that (I've had enough teeth removed to know!) I'd start reaching for the eject button.

Pretty much every violent action game that depicts damage on the characters has too look at that, though. The representation of damage greatly enhances the sense of power and destruction and realism and whatever else, but I'm not sure at what point does the vicarious power fantasy of video games start turning into something more disturbing (some will say that the concept of violent video games is disturbing enough already). Remember all the ways in which Leon could gruesomely die in RE4? I remember being morbidly interested in seeing them all (youtube has them collected for us). It is within the horror millieu, and it certainly drives home the "You Are Dead" screen, but it's pretty nasty stuff. Gears of War 2 is one of the games to me where the violence really felt violent; especially in Horde mode, where you and your team are desperately struggling to survive, the brutal kill animations from head stomps and chainsaw duels felt really intense.

What if the next game in the Total War series accurately depicted not only the gory slaughter of combat, but also the results of pillaging (the slaughter and rape of civilians, the plundering and burning of buildings, etc.)?





Ishmael
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"Re(6):New Tomb Raider feels like exploitation" , posted Sat 18 Jun 03:14post reply

quote:
it's a problem when you pair "gritty realism" with lara's "survival vision" which allows her to easily see whatever will help her escape. I have more problems with it thematically and tonally than just the moaning.

The survival vision reminded me more of the Bat-sight from Arkham Asylum than anything else. It made sense in AA since it's an adventure title and you would expect Batman to have some sort of gizmo like that. In TR, however, it feels like a catch-all trick that is being used so that the programmers don't have to think up more subtle clues for the puzzles and navigation. Nobody likes to get stuck in a game but if Lara has to solve yet another block puzzle I would hope she would have to do more problem solving than simply looking at it intensely.

quote:
I always wonder just how hurt should video game characters be before it's "too much".

MK makes a good case study since it has such a wide range of violence in it. Like you, the X-ray attacks don't bother me in the least. Sure, there's some horrific damage, but when a character gets stabbed straight through the head and then hops back up like it's no big whoop it only registers as a bit of garnish to the action than anything else. Instead, it's the little bits of damage that bother me. The torn skin or the old injury to the eye motif that show up after a few hits is a lot more relatable and is much more disturbing to me as a consequence.

On one hand a game wants to show enough of the consequences of violence to get the correct emotional response from the player. However, it doesn't want to go too far and pull the player out of the game. Finding that balance must be tricky. So far it looks like TR is finding the right path for what it wants to do and isn't going to stumble off into Duke Nukem Forever territory. Still, I do suspect that this topic will be discussed a great deal both before and after TR is released for the sole reason that it stars a female protagonist. At the moment I feel that a lot of the talk about the presentation of the violence is tied into sexual politics. Would there be such scrutiny of Lara's trials if it was Leon Kennedy, Isaac Clarke or some other male protagonist in the same scenerio? I don't know, but it will be interesting to see how this all plays out as the game gets closer to its release date.

At this point I not only am looking forward to playing the new Tomb Raider but I want to see what sort of thesis topics it generates.