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| Loona 343th Post
  
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|  "Re(9):SSF4Arcade" , posted Thu 16 Sep 20:46  
quote:
Also, am I the only person here that really enjoyed SFEX and EX2? I had a ton of fun with them. The graphics were boxy and cool, the controls were way more responsive than other 3d fighters (not over animated) and I know I sound like a broken record, but game was pretty damn innovative. It introduced super cancels, regular command throws, throw cancels and had the best tutorial mode of any fighting game to date.
Truth indeed - Arika also deserves my respect for Kairi's design in EX2 and onwards - it's a cliche storm (scars, red eye, white hair, bare-chested, glowing hands mode, not to mention owing a lot to Ryu gameplay), but ends up working surprisingly well, none of the design elements becoming overly intrusive in the general feel of the character. That, and his supers seemed conceived to encourage super cancelling, which was fun to pull off with him.
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| Spoon 2002th Post
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| "Re(4):Re(10):SSF4Arcade" , posted Fri 17 Sep 11:13
quote:
people might want to fry my ass for saying this, but the EX series gameplay wise, is better than SF IV/SSF IV...
Actually, I'd totally agree, even my copy of SFEX3 for the PS2 is honestly more enjoyable than SSF4 to me
I found an arcade with SFEX2 a week ago. When I put some coins in the machine, I almost felt like it didn't know what to do, it had been ignored for so long.
I had some fun matches with some buds. I was pleased to find that the controls were as smooth as I remember.
I have a much easier time with the controls in EX over SFIV. The timing in SFIV really throws me off, I think because there's alot more padding in the beginning and end of animations (lots of computer tweening).
I've heard that SSFIV feels better though.
My strongest memories of the SFEX series:
SFEX1: Ryu having a hurricane kick that was like Dan's, and Gief's arms becoming HUGE when he does a lariat.
SFEX2: EXCEL mode
SFEX3: Does everybody have the same standing strong?
SFEX had a look that didn't bother me so much in SFEX1 and 2, and yet SFEX3 managed to look repulsive.
I still find it funny how similarly gief's SPD is presented in SFEX and SF4.
Would less tweening make the game more "2D" to you, Nobi? I always think of the presence of tweened animation frames to be one of the things that really separates the look and feel of 3D games/heavily vectorized 2D games/neato effects from traditional 2D. But part of me has played fighting games for so long with a focus on the playing part that as long as the animation lengths are right and there are enough keyframes, my brain just automatically accepts it as ok. Then again, I'm probably warped by having played GG so much, where moves that are 16F or longer have only 3 frames of animation.
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| Nobinobita 811th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(5):Re(10):SSF4Arcade" , posted Fri 17 Sep 15:33
quote:
Would less tweening make the game more "2D" to you, Nobi? I always think of the presence of tweened animation frames to be one of the things that really separates the look and feel of 3D games/heavily vectorized 2D games/neato effects from traditional 2D. But part of me has played fighting games for so long with a focus on the playing part that as long as the animation lengths are right and there are enough keyframes, my brain just automatically accepts it as ok. Then again, I'm probably warped by having played GG so much, where moves that are 16F or longer have only 3 frames of animation.
For me it's less about feeling 3d or 2d and just about responsiveness. When you animate in 3d, it's much easier to play around with the timing of things. You can essentially add in extra frames for "free" that you would have to draw in a 2d game. Because of this, a lot of 3d games are over animated and just aren't as responsive. Street Fighter 4 felt odd to me because there seemed to be a split second start up and ease out of every animation. Capcom used to reserve that sort of padding for meaty attacks with alot of damage frames, but everything in SFIV looked meaty. I had a hard time figuring out when an animation would actually stop and another input would be registered. Also, all the characters had the same sense of weight. Everything felt goopy, like they were moving through molasses.
The main advantage that most 2d games have over 3d ones is that 2d games have to be animated frame by frame. So there's much more control over the final animation. You can do this in 3d, but most people choose not to because it's quicker to just set the key frames and let the computer tween it for you. I don't mean to knock on 3d animation, it's not an easy process, it's just that 2d games by nature tend to be more precise.
As far as making a game feel 2d goes, I'd do the following:
1) Hand key every frame of animation. For best results, rough out the animation in 2d, then pose the 3d accordingly. Alot of Pixar animators work this way.
2) Animate at 12 frames per second for slow actions and 24 frames per second for fast ones. This will make it feel like film. High frame rate does not always result in a better viewing experience. Overly smooth motions look and feel artificial.
Side Note: Have you seen those new HD TVs that play Blu-Rays at higher frame rates and automatically interpolate between frames? They look really freaky. They make me feel like I'm just watching actors on a set, it pulls me out of the reality of the film.
3) Don't automatically tween between poses or modulate the frame rate according to performance. That just throws off the timing of everything. Same goes for camera moves, they make it impossible to gauge distance down to the pixel.
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| Ishmael 3892th Post
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| "Re(6):Re(10):SSF4Arcade" , posted Sat 18 Sep 00:44
Oyaji!
quote:
For me it's less about feeling 3d or 2d and just about responsiveness. When you animate in 3d, it's much easier to play around with the timing of things. You can essentially add in extra frames for "free" that you would have to draw in a 2d game. Because of this, a lot of 3d games are over animated and just aren't as responsive. Street Fighter 4 felt odd to me because there seemed to be a split second start up and ease out of every animation. Capcom used to reserve that sort of padding for meaty attacks with alot of damage frames, but everything in SFIV looked meaty. I had a hard time figuring out when an animation would actually stop and another input would be registered. Also, all the characters had the same sense of weight. Everything felt goopy, like they were moving through molasses.
I do wonder if that all meaty, all the time approach for SF4 was intentional or a by-product of the design of the game. Either way, in spite of the sense of lag I do find I respond to that extra heft since it makes it feel like every attack I do has force and weight behind it. Maybe I'm just sick to death of ArcSys style games where I can fill the screen with pretty lights and limited animation but I rarely connect with a move that has any sense of impact to it.
All this talk about game animation makes me wonder, where is the balance between trying to make a game look good and handle well? Going back to EX, the Blanka in that game was a real eyesore. Every movement he made felt like it had been done to conform to hitboxes and animation frames instead of having any life to it. His crouching HP still sticks out in my mind as a move where nothing looked right. Although I don't know if he handles "correctly" in SF4 -I'll leave that to Blanka gurus to decide- he nevertheless looks like he has much more personality and consistency in his movements.
When I first played EX I wrote off Blanka as one of those problems that come up when you try to bring 2D animation techiques into 3D. But now I wonder, did the creators of EX intentionally drop Blanka's personality in favor of trying to get his timing and reach right? Is the Blanka I see in SF4 an illusion created by computers sticking in frames between his animation?
Speaking of over and under animation, an a 2D chaining attack style game where frames get dropped work in 3D? Is the reportedly slightly slower pace of MvC3 the result of 3D looking too odd when it starts speeding up and dropping animation? But considering that MvC2 is one butt-ugly game is that design choice understandable?
Hmm, I hoped that if I kept typing I would figure out what my point was but instead I lost it completely. But, hey, I like Dudley's new costume so there's that.
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| Pollyanna 2963th Post
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| "Re(2):Ono tweets!" , posted Wed 22 Sep 06:38
quote:
people might want to fry my ass for saying this, but the EX series gameplay wise, is better than SF IV/SSF IV...
This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but if you like EX more than 4, I would say Street Fighter probably isn't your game.
quote:
Yeah, I also read that as "we aren't going to bring them to consoles now because they are scheduled for release later." I understand the business reasons behind not blabbing their full schedule but I also wonder if they aren't partly doing it for fun at this point. Since it is so easy to work people up into a lather when it comes to SF or any other fighting game who could resist teasing the fans occasionally?
I'm not worried that we won't see the characters on a home port EVENTUALLY, but this is still bad news. If they wait too long, they may be inspired to release a new game instead of DLC. Of course, they said SSF4 was the last in the series, but talk is cheap in the game industry.
I was quite excited about getting into SSF4 again, but knowing that I only get new costumes when there are new CHARACTERS to be had has kind of deflated my enthusiasm. If I was returning to a rebalanced game with an updated cast, I might be inspired to blow money on a few silly costumes. As is...I think I'll just keep playing BlazBlue.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| Pollyanna 2964th Post
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| "Re(4):Ono tweets!" , posted Thu 23 Sep 02:42
quote:
BB's offering is quite compelling, what with 3 new characters. I'm not sure how much I like playing BB, though.
SSF4 is still an interesting enough game to me that I think I can keep playing it for awhile. Then again, I don't get to play it that often, so that may temper my thoughts on it. On the bright side, didn't you once mention that you live in an area where there's a decent arcade? You might just get to play SSF4AE anyway.
Yeah, I'm just being bratty. SSF4 isn't lacking in anything as-is, it's just that it'll bug me knowing that there's a better version out there to be played. I hope the console port gets the balance patch, at least (and they don't save it for a disc-based update). I'd like to be able to use Makoto with a little less fear.
On the other hand, the upcoming BlazBlue patch is extremely enticing, although it still won't fix the problem of Tager benefiting so tremendously from lag.
I'm sure the local arcade will get SSF4, but I'm also sure it will be overrun with people who can wipe the floor with my pretty little face. Losing is fine, but not when it's costly.
quote:
Maybe I'm crazy but I love that in Yang's U1, there's a camera cut that happens for a moment that just shows Yang's feet has he stops his movement.
I thought that was really awesome, too. The move looks fantastic. They do look a tad bit stiff, but it's not enough to diminish my happiness that they were included. Now, the game is precious few characters (Alex, Necro, Karin) from including every SF character I've ever used.
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| Maou 2076th Post
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| "Re(5):Ono tweets!" , posted Thu 23 Sep 12:51
quote:
I thought that was really awesome, too. The move looks fantastic. They do look a tad bit stiff, but it's not enough to diminish my happiness that they were included. Now, the game is precious few characters (Alex, Necro, Karin) from including every SF character I've ever used.
But, but, where is almighty Q???? Every SF game should have Q. Every SF game should probably be about Q, come to think about it. As he has no story anyway, he should also become the next boss instead of stupid things like Seth.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| Professor 2807th Post
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| "Re(3):Ono tweets!" , posted Thu 23 Sep 19:56:
quote:
.... Hmmm...... Does this mean that the xbald version is going to get canned as well? 
Some of the things that Ono talks in the 4Gamer interview is just plain freaky.
Ono: "I think the balance of SSF4 on the home console wasn't too bad, but if there was one thing that I regret, the game was a bit too well-rounded. There were some moves that were relatively strong, but in the end, there weren't any strikingly heel characters because of that."(heel = evil. Wrestling terminology)
4Gamer: "Like Sagat in vanilla SF4?"
Ono: Right. So we're touching the game, and adding more of that kind of inbalance. We want to purposely add in things that are like, 'Huh? This's been weakened, what am I supposed to do?', and, 'If I use this character, people might think that I'm just picking it for its tier'.
4gamer: Some Ultra Combos, like those of Abel, Furte, and Roses', are being called fuc**n' UCs (abusively strong UCs), but what do you think about them?
Ono: Hummm, I was thinking that that might be true, but that was until a month ago. I saw a Rose user beating Daigo at a tournament in Europe.
4gamer: Oh yes! We've seen it too.
Ono: So then, we figured that things are just fine the way they are. (laughs)
4gamer: Ah. So you're going to leave that kind of inbalance as it is.
Ono: Yes. Especially with some characters like Abel, they might become too strong if we retouch them. So we aren't thinking of fixing their fundamentals.
[this message was edited by Professor on Thu 23 Sep 20:05] |
| mbisonhatclub 255th Post
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| "Re(3):Re(10):Yung and Yan (har har)" , posted Mon 24 Jan 04:30
quote:
Ok, these two are a brilliant work of chara-design, especially Oni, that goes crazy with that buddhist feel of Gou brothers (very cool they mantain the appeal of Gouki given to a Gouken look).
But face the fact they're also DAMN SHOTOS! How many shotos they will plan to add in SF? In this game, there are 8 of them, 9 if you count the CPU Shin Gouki... a bit too much for me, I love uniqueness in fighters, not power.
Just wait until they add Sean, Violent Ken, Tan Sakura, Dangerous Dan, Cyber Akuma, R. Akuma (Akuma wearing R.Mika's outfit), Orochi Akuma, Evil Sean, and Mel Masters, who looks exactly like Ken but is shorter
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| Just a Person 1453th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Mon 24 Jan 08:38
quote:
Ok, these two are a brilliant work of chara-design, especially Oni, that goes crazy with that buddhist feel of Gou brothers (very cool they mantain the appeal of Gouki given to a Gouken look).
But face the fact they're also DAMN SHOTOS! How many shotos they will plan to add in SF? In this game, there are 8 of them, 9 if you count the CPU Shin Gouki... a bit too much for me, I love uniqueness in fighters, not power.
Well, I don't think 8 or 9 shotos are too much of a problem in terms of variety when we have 30 other characters with their unique fighting styles (well, not so much in the cases of Yun and Yang, or Seth and the SFII cast, but you know what I mean). Besides, from what I've read on the internet, it seems the shotos lost most of their popularity to characters like Yun, Fei-Long or Zangief.
The weird thing is that we've already seen the endings for the 4 new characters, but not any of their Rival Battle cutscenes (well, unless the Arcade Edition doesn't have them - but it would be weird to be unable to have cutscenes with the game's graphics themselves while there are animated endings...).
BTW, how did Evil Ryu and Oni (Akuma... or Gouken?) appear in the Arcades? Were they presented as hidden final bosses or they just popped out in the selection screen out of nowhere? The first option would be more challenging, but also cooler, I think.
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| Nekros 331th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(4):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Mon 24 Jan 14:27
quote:
BTW, how did Evil Ryu and Oni (Akuma... or Gouken?) appear in the Arcades? Were they presented as hidden final bosses or they just popped out in the selection screen out of nowhere? The first option would be more challenging, but also cooler, I think.
They were unlocked by a time code, like Gouki and Gouken in Vanilla Arcade ver.
I heard rumors that 2 or 4 more chars are hidden in the game that way, but this only assuming as true the achievements leaks in november.
To me, as Capcom is used to, they will release a home port of the arcade, adding new faces and some new features. DLC is a option, but only if the content is the 4 new chars + rebalance patch.
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| Iggy 9212th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Mon 24 Jan 20:47
quote:
To me, as Capcom is used to, they will release a home port of the arcade, adding new faces and some new features. DLC is a option, but only if the content is the 4 new chars + rebalance patch.
There's a picture of someone having Hugo as an icon in AE, and everyone is speculating widely.
I really don't buy the shoto complains. Even if you say Ryu, Ken, Gouki and Sagat play more or less the same (which is already a big stretch), people who count Sakura, Rose or Gouken as copy and paste characters have just never touched a Street Fighter game. And this Oni doesn't seem to have much in common with Gouki or Ryu, with his airdash and crossups.
Some people complain that there are too many shoto, then that there are too many grabblers (counting Zangief, Honda, Hawk, Hakan and Abel as if they were one redundant character) and then that there are too many dive kick characters (notwithstanding the fact Yun's is nothing like Cammy's or Rufus). I haven't seen people complaining about the charge characters, but they just need to add one more before some moron start complaining that Guile and Blanka play the same.
All in all, Internet complaining is a great game, and cheaper than the AE DLC.
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| Nekros 332th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(6):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Tue 25 Jan 01:02
quote:
Some people complain that there are too many shoto, then that there are too many grabblers (counting Zangief, Honda, Hawk, Hakan and Abel as if they were one redundant character) and then that there are too many dive kick characters (notwithstanding the fact Yun's is nothing like Cammy's or Rufus). I haven't seen people complaining about the charge characters, but they just need to add one more before some moron start complaining that Guile and Blanka play the same.
Execution of moves don't have much in common with actual gameplay or style.
Sure Blanka and Guile are charge type, Zangief and Fuerte are grapplers, but they're very different one from another. Also, they have completely different combat style/martial art performed.
Shotos aren't so much different as others, sure they have their own moves, spacing game and normals, but the same fighting style is a given.
Side note: what about the music themes of the evils?
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| mbisonhatclub 256th Post
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| "Re(7):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Tue 25 Jan 04:22
quote:
If character types are being so loosely defined that Sagat and Sakura are viewed as being similar what should be made of a game like KoF98 where entire teams can be built with fighters who throw fireballs and uppercuts?
People say the same thing about KOF but
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
only mexicans pay attention to KOF and most of us can't understand what they're saying in b4 someone takes this seriously and tries to refute this statement
End of Spoiler
And Yuri/Ryo/Robert/Andy would be grouped with each other in the same category and more loosely would it include Kyo, Iori, etc
Even Joe and Hwa Jai are similar to each other (well duh) even if there are certain more obvious differences such as Joe can throw hurricanes while Hwa can't--what we're saying is, we notice what similarities there ARE, and nobody is ever saying 100% congruency unless they're that moronic
The thing is just because you can tell what the subtle or functional difference between two similar characters are, you cannot write off that there are some foundational or fundamental similarities that people will notice easily just by looking at them for a few seconds and only tourneyfaggots will jump in defensively and go "NO, THEY ARE LIKE, TOTALLY FUCKING DIFFERENT, YOU CANNOT PLAY RYU AND AKUMA THE EXACT SAME WAY AND GET THE SAME RESULTS" well no fucking shit, sherlock
This is why there is a word called a "derivative" and it's not just for math where you calculate dy/dx or whatnot or we'll have to explain the chain rule all over again
Or in Dan Hibiki's case, a "parody"
What's sad is while people praise Akuma or Evil Ryu's appearance in a game, they're easily turned off by characters like Karin because she's a "(shitty) Fei Long clone" and this is just one of many examples of the Capcom fanboy attitude that's just delirious, and even people will attack Haggar for being a "Zangief clone" despite, first off, Haggar came first, second, Capcom at least took care to make him somewhat different enough to stand out on his own, and third, he's the motherfucking mayor of EARTH.
It's not to say it's just coincidence that even Capcom of the past would notice similarities in even characters from other franchises, to include the aforementioned AOF members where they responded by making their parody character, or even when Capcom sued Data East for Fighter's History--which you can see some derivative examples, but you can also say it's not completely the same. HOWEVER, you can tell what Capcom was indeed seeing
This spiel was brought to you by 4chan bitching threads and the countless double-talking hypocritical blindspotted fallible arguments brought forth in those threads
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| Pollyanna 2989th Post
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| "Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Tue 25 Jan 07:35
This is an issue of scale or what could be. We have a character slot taken by Evil Ryu. That could've been someone else. Can you really say that's as good as having a non-derivative character? Even if most of the shoto characters don't play the same, having a large collection of characters with the same named moves is less interesting than having someone wildly different.
I understand that "too many shotos!" is an overreaction, but there still is a point of contention. Ryu and Ken may be reasonably different, but if there were only 2 characters, wouldn't it be better to have Ryu and Zangief? Of course, the scale is completely different, but the complaint still stands on a small level.
On the other hand, one could say "it would still be better to have Ken because he's more popular than Zangief", which leaves us at the real problem...it isn't that there are too many shotos, but that there are too many shotos when there could be whatever our favorite not-included character is. When people were saying "6 new characters" I don't think "more Ryu and Gouki" was on the top of anyone's list.
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| badoor
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| "Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Tue 25 Jan 08:12
quote:
This is an issue of scale or what could be. We have a character slot taken by Evil Ryu. That could've been someone else. Can you really say that's as good as having a non-derivative character? Even if most of the shoto characters don't play the same, having a large collection of characters with the same named moves is less interesting than having someone wildly different.
I understand that "too many shotos!" is an overreaction, but there still is a point of contention. Ryu and Ken may be reasonably different, but if there were only 2 characters, wouldn't it be better to have Ryu and Zangief? Of course, the scale is completely different, but the complaint still stands on a small level.
On the other hand, one could say "it would still be better to have Ken because he's more popular than Zangief", which leaves us at the real problem...it isn't that there are too many shotos, but that there are too many shotos when there could be whatever our favorite not-included character is. When people were saying "6 new characters" I don't think "more Ryu and Gouki" was on the top of anyone's list.
Now I agree with you but playing as devil's advocate, as you know the appeal of shotos to Capcom is that they can be much easier to churn out than other different characters, back in the 2D days and I think even now. The models and animations are very similar in each of the shotos with only slight variation. Heck, Evil Ryu just looks like one of Ryu's alt. costumes. You could have 6 more shotos, or maybe 2 more real diverse characters.
My argument for the players might not be strong (that is IF you consider my lame Capcom argument as strong), the shotos' surface level of similarities in their moves and normals mean that players are more comfortable trying them out. A scrubby Ken player would probably feel more comfortable and familiar when trying out Evil Ryu for the first time then say Q. And with these people they don't want to experiment or enjoy the game, they just want to win and get achievements and trash talk and whatnot.
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| Pollyanna 2990th Post
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| "Re(3):Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Tue 25 Jan 09:23
I know- Devil's advocate, but the "easier for Capcom" argument could spiral into a "we're lucky to have anything" sort of situation, which is silly.
quote:
A scrubby Ken player would probably feel more comfortable and familiar when trying out Evil Ryu for the first time then say Q. And with these people they don't want to experiment or enjoy the game, they just want to win and get achievements and trash talk and whatnot.
This might actually be a really good point. It reminds me of hardcore anime fans (who spend hundreds of dollars a month on the hobby) complaining about how American companies don't cater to their very specific interests. I think "you guys are seriously overestimating your worth". So it might be a case of "the weakest dog barks loudest" where, say, Q fans, are big fans, and thus very vocal, but don't actually matter much to Capcom.
I'm really beginning to wonder about how they're going to tackle this for home release, though. At first I thought (despite their initial claims otherwise) that we might have a DLC or hard copy situation like with RE5 Gold, where they add a few more characters and would package all the costumes with it as well. But, as mentioned before, splitting the online vs makes it a real mess.
SIDE NOTE:
KOF was mentioned as a big offender in derivative characters, and I have to admit KOF 12 broke my heart in that category. They put so much love into these sprites and had such a fantastic, rich cast to draw from and they have a wide sea of "fireball, dragon punch, move that moves you across the screen" characters. This was especially annoying, since they have to make an individual sprite any way around, projectiles weren't very useful in that game, and half of the characters who played like that have a version where they don't.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| Maou 2143th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(9):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Tue 25 Jan 12:16:
Uppercut brothers don't bother me too much and I do think they're different in feel to some degree (I'm a Sakura player, after all), but yeah, given the choice of yet another Gouki or say, my good pals Rolento or Q, I know who I'd want in the spot. I can't even play Q very well, but I sure love shrieking, Kyuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu! whenever I do any attack. Q is rad.
Anyway, uppercut-wise, at least Sean isn't in it. I hate Sean.
quote:
I'll never see Remy outside of 3S ports and re-releases...
But maybe we should move the conversation center outside of the controversial Ryu copies and into the land of character assassination! I re-propose (for Shin to counter): in a game featuring the most gorgeous Chun Li and thus the most gorgeous fighting game woman ever animated in 2D, why on earth does Remy always look to me like he has like three frames of animation? Years later, it still puzzles me to no end.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Tue 25 Jan 12:17] |
| karasu99 523th Post
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| "Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Elvis" , posted Wed 26 Jan 03:29
quote:
I understand that "too many shotos!" is an overreaction, but there still is a point of contention. Ryu and Ken may be reasonably different, but if there were only 2 characters, wouldn't it be better to have Ryu and Zangief? Of course, the scale is completely different, but the complaint still stands on a small level.
I wasn't trying to say that I was happy to have E. Ryu and Oni because 'hey, more characters!'-- I was more just expressing that the question of lots of shotos easily gets out of hand, and that the move to 3D makes differentiated characters a little easier, instead of SFZ era headswaps, so at least E. Ryu and Oni will be more differentiated than they were back in SFZ3.
But I totally take your point about rather having two returning characters who aren't shotos, instead of almost-reskins. I think in this case, as other folks have pointed out, it's a question of cost to develop an entirely new character animation. I expect it's pretty easy to reskin Gouki, add a new idle animation to his character model, and tweak several of his moves to behave differently while adding a new move or two.
Speaking for myself, I would rather see two more new characters instead of two returners, especially how Capcom so pleasantly surprised us with Juri and Hakkan in terms of pleasant character design, but I think that's even further from the realm of possibility, given the cost of designing said characters in addition to building and animating their models.
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| Baines 273th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Wed 26 Jan 11:04
quote:
When people were saying "6 new characters" I don't think "more Ryu and Gouki" was on the top of anyone's list.
Maybe not here, but worldwide? And maybe not top of the list, but for how many would "on the list" be accurate? If you poll everyone who might ever consider playing the game for a top six, how many people do you think will then ask for "more Ryu and Gouki"?
Evil Ryu is popular, and people do ask for him in games. People like to see what craziness a new Akuma might be up to. There are people that want the return of Violent Ken and Dark Sakura. And since all the other shotos get "powerful/psycho/evil" versions, I'm sure there are people who wanted to see "Evil Gouken".
Don't forget that most people are probably mostly happy with the roster already, with maybe two or three (non-variant-of-existing-shoto) people at most that they'd want to see return, and probably several (non-variant-of-existing-shoto) people that they wouldn't want to see in the game at all. Sure, there are people that want R.Mika, but there are also people who'd rather see six more versions of Ryu than to see Mika (or Q or whatever other absent character not already in a game) return.
Of course, as everyone has said, more shoto-variation characters are easier for Capcom than converting a unique character or creating someone new. Even if the moves are all new variations on the theme, they are still variations on a theme that has been fairly heavily explored, and thus presumably easier to create and tweak than an entirely different moveset.
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| nobinobita 856th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(3):Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Wed 26 Jan 15:28
Mmmmmm... Remember when we could discuss characters and their back stories with the enthusiasm of a sports otaku praising their favorite athlete? Now we amuse ourselves by trying to decipher Capcom's business decisions, which is more or less an exercise in examining why they've left behind their original core fans.
Games have changed...
Gaming, and its vast consumption of human social life, has become a rational, well-oiled business transaction.
Games have changed.
Xbox live tagged gamers play Twitter enabled games that tag all their friends with automatic tweets.
Advertising inside their social networks enhance and regulate their actions.
Genetic control.. Information control..
Emotion control.. Battlefield control.
Everything is monitored, and kept under control.
Games have changed.
The age of mainstream gaming is now the age of control,creating hype machines for blockbusters of mass appeal.
And he who controls the battlefield, controls history.
Games have changed.
When the battlefield is under total control, games become routine.
www.art-eater.com
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| Pollyanna 2991th Post
PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Wed 26 Jan 18:18
quote:
...Isn't this whole situation regarding Capcom once again making Street Fighter games a "we're lucky to have anything" sort of situation?
Maybe like...at first when Capcom had seemingly given up fighting games forever, but a sequel, numerous ports/spinoffs and the revival of another fighting game series later, that's just silly.
But there is a point where you might be asking too much. Obviously I don't expect every single character I like to be included just because I like them. Obviously, it's easier for Capcom to modify a preexisting character than make a totally new one. I was arguing for the feelings of disappointment that many players have...I understand that Capcom can't do everything for everyone, and SSF4 already had a marvelously diverse cast. I'm just saying, when so many people were thinking "6 new characters" (even if this was never true) they probably weren't thinking "modifications of old characters."
But Baines made me think of something... I always say that a company should not give you what you want so much as give you something you didn't know you wanted that's more interesting than what you could've thought of. Maybe people don't think to ask for 6 different Kens, but that's actually what they want.
quote:
Also, I still think the Tekken crossover shouldn't have been announced before at best autumn 2011. It kinda spoiled the fun of SF4AE and TTT2.
Yeah, it gets on my nerves when games are announced years and years in advance. This isn't as bad as, say, Final Fantasy, but it has left me feeling like "ugh, do I really need all this Tekken?"
quote:
Mmmmmm... Remember when we could discuss characters and their back stories with the enthusiasm of a sports otaku praising their favorite athlete?
We have Just a Person to discuss back stories enough for all of us.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| Ishmael 3998th Post
PSN: Ishmael26b
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Thu 27 Jan 11:05
quote:
Mmmmmm... Remember when we could discuss characters and their back stories with the enthusiasm of a sports otaku praising their favorite athlete? Now we amuse ourselves by trying to decipher Capcom's business decisions, which is more or less an exercise in examining why they've left behind their original core fans.
I'm pretty certain that Nobinobita is primarily posting to indulge in his love of Beat poetry but I still feel the need to respond.
First, the idea of games and their connection to business reminds me a lot of discussions I've heard concerning cinema. Both art styles were created by businesses and anything outside of the smallest production has to be funded by well moneyed sources. Nevertheless, both games and movies are viewed as being pandering and corrupt when they do something that is designed to turn a profit. I'm not trying to champion The Man here or anything but is denigrating business -which has been an integral part of games since the beginning- really in the best interest of videogames?
Second, I suspect you might be misreading the board's interest in the financial decisions of Capcom, SNKP and the like. As a point of reference, I spend far more time thinking about the back-story in games than anybody who has already graduated from elementary school really should. But my interest extends to the companies that make the games I enjoy. I want to know who the people are behind these games. What were they thinking during the process of creation? What was their inspiration? What did they hope to accomplish with the game? Yes, I even want to know about the backing and environment at the company. Wondering about something as dry as financial matters shows a person has moved beyond the surface interest of a casual fling into all encompassing love. Games have changed? No, it's that we've gone beyond casual dating in our relationship with games and are ready for commitment. Or ready to be committed. Whatever.
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| Pollyanna 2992th Post
PSN: Lilly_Dopamine
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Thu 27 Jan 22:09
quote:
Please marry me.
But I'm really a m--oh, uh...never mind.
quote:
Really? I don't remember the last time I discussed any back story here... and although I know quite a bit about Mortal Kombat (which doesn't seem to be very appreciated here), there are other people around this board with much better knowledge than me regarding back stories of Street Fighter, KOF, Tekken (whose plot I still fail to understand after Tekken 4), etc...
Maybe "backstory" isn't the right word, but you're often talking about the scenario/plot continuity/story aspects of games. You really didn't notice? I thought it was your trademark! Even in this thread, your focus is on the endings almost exclusively, and it seems like you're often asking for translations on character profiles and story.
I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, but it really struck me as "your thing."
Also, quite a few people on the board like Mortal Kombat, which is more than I can say for half of the RPGs I play.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| Just a Person 1455th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(8):Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Fri 28 Jan 01:49
quote:
Maybe "backstory" isn't the right word, but you're often talking about the scenario/plot continuity/story aspects of games. You really didn't notice? I thought it was your trademark! Even in this thread, your focus is on the endings almost exclusively, and it seems like you're often asking for translations on character profiles and story.
I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, but it really struck me as "your thing."
Also, quite a few people on the board like Mortal Kombat, which is more than I can say for half of the RPGs I play.
Oh, okay then, now I get what you meant. You're right, I really like to follow the story bits of fighting games. I had understood that you said that I know a lot of these backstories (which I don't; KOF and Tekken always get me confused, for instance), not that I like to find out about these backstories (which I do).
Thanks for the explanation!
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| mbisonhatclub 278th Post
PSN: hadoolket
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Copper Customer
| "Re(7):Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Sat 26 Mar 01:43
quote:
Evil Ryu debuts. Just pretend we haven't seen him before. My, but Capcom certainly left themselves a lot of room on that newly created fourth row of the character select screen.
Those other eight spots will be taken up by Orochi Sagat, Evil M.Bison, Evil Cammy, Violent Ken, Sadistic Sean, Dark Sakura, Shadow Chunli, and Boneclaw Vega.
join the m.bison hat club today
i'm not just the president i'm also a client
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| TheRedKnight 300th Post
PSN: no
XBL: no
Wii: no
Bronze Customer
| "Re(8):Re(10):Re(10):Yung,Yan and the Evils" , posted Sat 26 Mar 01:54
quote:
Those other eight spots will be taken up by Orochi Sagat, Evil M.Bison, Evil Cammy, Violent Ken, Sadistic Sean, Dark Sakura, Shadow Chunli, and Boneclaw Vega.
OK, Evil M.Bison and Boneclaw Vega were funny.
THE LEGEND OF THE STRONGEST FIGHTING LORD OF ALL TIME!
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"Re(1):SSF4Arcade" , posted Sun 12 Sep 08:32
"Re(6):SSF4Arcade" , posted Mon 13 Sep 11:13
of Justice. I freely admit that it was the insanely high quality of the character and world design, as well as the general easy fun of playing, that I loved about Justice far more than any actual depth or complexity of design. 
"Re(5):Re(10):SSF4Arcade" , posted Sat 18 Sep 04:20
who follow the path of a warrior
"Re(10):Yung and Yan (har har)" , posted Sun 23 Jan 15:40
