Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in - http://www.mmcafe.com/ Forums


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Maou
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"Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Sun 8 Jul 16:25post reply

So Red Falcon convinced me in an earlier thread that I could do better than my old (admittedly impressive for the system) PSone copy of Street Fighter Zero 3 and might try the Street Fighter Zero Fighter's Generation AKA SFA Anthology.

My deal is that I liked all the additions of the PS SFZero 3, particularly the new characters. I guess that the unlockable SFZero3 Upper has them? Does it have the new-er-er characters who don't belong like Yun and Ingrid or something? No World Tour mode, but I assume there is still a selectable Versus and all that? Anything that is better, like level select (so sorely lacking in Zero3)?





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"Re(1):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Sun 8 Jul 16:31post reply

quote:
So Red Falcon convinced me in an earlier thread that I could do better than my old (admittedly impressive for the system) PSone copy of Street Fighter Zero 3 and might try the Street Fighter Zero Fighter's Generation AKA SFA Anthology.

My deal is that I liked all the additions of the PS SFZero 3, particularly the new characters. I guess that the unlockable SFZero3 Upper has them? Does it have the new-er-er characters who don't belong like Yun and Ingrid or something? No World Tour mode, but I assume there is still a selectable Versus and all that? Anything that is better, like level select (so sorely lacking in Zero3)?



None of the characters from Upper (Yun, Eagle, Ingrid, etc.), but it does have the extra characters from the other home versions (Guile, T.Hawk, Dee Jay, etc.) In fact the unlockable Alpha3 is basically the home version minus world tour mode.

I'm not sure what you mean by selectable versus, but there is a versus mode, as well as dramatic battle.

I personally consider Alpha Anthology more than worth the purchase. And I already owned copies of Alpha 3 and Alpha 2 Gold before I bought it. Then again, I like the Alpha 1 much more than the average MMCafeer does.





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Maou
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"Re(2):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Sun 8 Jul 16:40:post reply

Groovy, I too own both of those but want a copy without the PSone's heinous loads (though I might miss the nice character portrait loading screens of Zero 3 on PS).

For selectable versus, I was just worried that it would be such an 'arcade perfect' conversion that no versus mode would be selectable. Then again, like in the arcade, you can't choose the stage you fight on, from what I remember, which drives me crazy...





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[this message was edited by Maou on Sun 8 Jul 16:42]

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"Re(2):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Mon 9 Jul 00:08post reply

quote:


None of the characters from Upper (Yun, Eagle, Ingrid, etc.),



Actually, those aren't characters from "Upper", just from the ridiculous GBA version of the game.



SFZ Fighter's Generation does have a severe problem with the graphics' presentation, I'm afraid. Run away from it if you're really after arcade perfection.





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"Re(3):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Mon 9 Jul 01:47post reply

quote:
None of the characters from Upper (Yun, Eagle, Ingrid, etc.),


All graphics nitpicking aside, IIRC Upper was actually an arcade release for the Naomi hardware that was based on the DC version (with all of the extra home characters) and as such might (probably) have the few problems that were in the DC version as well, much like with the rerelease of SFIII:3S in the arcade with some of its weird changes.





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"Re(4):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Mon 9 Jul 02:17:post reply

quote:

All graphics nitpicking aside, IIRC Upper was actually an arcade release for the Naomi hardware that was based on the DC version (with all of the extra home characters) and as such might (probably) have the few problems that were in the DC version as well, much like with the rerelease of SFIII:3S in the arcade with some of its weird changes.

Yes, that's right. I prefer upper to many of the earlier revisions of Zero 3, primarily because a lot of the V-ism infinates are nerfed. Man, Zero 3 had some really serious issues early on. First version, Birdie and Zangief couldn't block some of Dhalsim's close attacks for no reason at all, Mika's air throw did no damage, all sorts of weird stuff.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Mon 9 Jul 02:19]

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"Re(3):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Mon 9 Jul 07:43post reply

quote:

Actually, those aren't characters from "Upper", just from the ridiculous GBA version of the game.



They were also in the PSP version released some time back. I think Ingrid was ONLY in that one.





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"Re(5):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Mon 9 Jul 14:16post reply

quote:
Yes, that's right. I prefer upper to many of the earlier revisions of Zero 3, primarily because a lot of the V-ism infinates are nerfed. Man, Zero 3 had some really serious issues early on. First version, Birdie and Zangief couldn't block some of Dhalsim's close attacks for no reason at all, Mika's air throw did no damage, all sorts of weird stuff.


Yeah, I remember all the weird version changes when they were "testing" it here. It wasn't fun having the CPU Karin go into V-Ism and air throw you for an entire health bar. :(





Maou
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"Re(6):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Mon 9 Jul 17:11:post reply

Interesting stuff!

So the graphical presenation is bad...how so? I am after arcade perfection, or at least the best known copy of SFZero 3. Granted, I'm starting from the PSone version here, so I bet it's still better, but I guess the question for me is:

SFZero Fighter's Gen on PS2
or
Zero 3 on Dreamcast? It's my favorite of the bunch, so...





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[this message was edited by Maou on Mon 9 Jul 17:13]

hikarutilmitt
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"Re(7):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Mon 9 Jul 17:43post reply

quote:
Interesting stuff!

So the graphical presenation is bad...how so? I am after arcade perfection, or at least the best known copy of SFZero 3. Granted, I'm starting from the PSone version here, so I bet it's still better, but I guess the question for me is:

SFZero Fighter's Gen on PS2
or
Zero 3 on Dreamcast? It's my favorite of the bunch, so...



The graphical presentation is perfectly fine and even include 480p, which looks quite nice. It's particularly better if you're coming from the PSX and even DC version.

Basically, if you want World Tour mode you should stick with one of the three home ports, if you want the arcade versions without frills and aren't anal about needing scanlines and the original resolution of the arcade board or other such business you'd do well to get the Zero collection.





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"Re(8):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Mon 9 Jul 21:14post reply

quote:

The graphical presentation is perfectly fine and even include 480p, which looks quite nice. It's particularly better if you're coming from the PSX and even DC version.


But of course it's not.





quote:
if you want the arcade versions without frills and aren't anal about needing scanlines and the original resolution of the arcade board or other such business you'd do well to get the Zero collection.


He said he's "after arcade perfection", so you can guess he indeed is "anal". Not that you have to be "anal" to understand how ugly upscaled graphics are, but whatever.


---


There's not a perfect port of Zero 3. The DC version has some graphic issues which even affect gameplay. The best one is the SS version, but still not "arcade perfect" gameplay-wise (you get the 5 extra characters, on the other hand, so maybe it's the version to go with). You always have MAME, which, with the correct set-up, replicates the arcade PCB flawlessly.





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"Re(9):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Tue 10 Jul 01:33post reply

Then why don't we just tell him that he needs to get the PCB for whichever version he wants? If he wants arcade perfect he might as well just buy the arcade.





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"Re(7):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Tue 10 Jul 03:08:post reply

quote:
Interesting stuff!

So the graphical presenation is bad...how so? I am after arcade perfection, or at least the best known copy of SFZero 3. Granted, I'm starting from the PSone version here, so I bet it's still better, but I guess the question for me is:

SFZero Fighter's Gen on PS2
or
Zero 3 on Dreamcast? It's my favorite of the bunch, so...

As an old-time Zero 3 player, I find the Zero collection version to be perfectly fine. The Saturn Version is good, but I have no Saturn sticks so I barely ever played my copy... the Dreamcast version is definately the worst of the bunch. And like I said, it has Upper, Zero 1, 2, and for some reason Pocket Fighter on it, so you'll probably be more than happy enough with it.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Tue 10 Jul 07:00]

Maou
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"Re(8):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Tue 10 Jul 03:51post reply

Thanks for all the thoughts!

Tough choice there...I always assumed that the DC version would at least be better than my slow old PSone version, but if it's pretty bad, I may be out of luck since I don't own a Saturn. Not being a graphics technology expert, I don't know how much the upscaled sprites will strike me on the Zero collection...is this the kind of thing that's noticeable on a simpler non-component TV? I don't like 'sweet adaptations' and pseudo-improvements like the HD SSF2X that's coming, to be sure. I want the best version I can get between DC and PS2, so I'm still not sold between the two, I guess!

And MAME drives me nuts, piracy aside, what with all the button-binding I had to do on someone's Xbox one time to make its controls work. The lack of a normal versus mode adds to the lack of attractiveness for the arcade machine in whatever form.





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"Re(9):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-in" , posted Tue 10 Jul 04:08post reply

quote:
Thanks for all the thoughts!

Tough choice there...I always assumed that the DC version would at least be better than my slow old PSone version, but if it's pretty bad, I may be out of luck since I don't own a Saturn. Not being a graphics technology expert, I don't know how much the upscaled sprites will strike me on the Zero collection...is this the kind of thing that's noticeable on a simpler non-component TV? I don't like 'sweet adaptations' and pseudo-improvements like the HD SSF2X that's coming, to be sure. I want the best version I can get between DC and PS2, so I'm still not sold between the two, I guess!


Trust me, just go with the Zero collection.





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"Re(10):Street Fighter Zero collection weigh-i" , posted Tue 10 Jul 04:33post reply

quote:

Trust me, just go with the Zero collection.



Seconded. If it passes the Red Falcon test, it should be close enough.

I wouldn't be too scared by upscaled graphics. Although I think they should always be optional, some people actually prefer them and others can't even tell the difference.





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"Re(2):Re(10):Street Fighter Zero collection w" , posted Tue 10 Jul 06:12post reply

quote:

Then why don't we just tell him that he needs to get the PCB for whichever version he wants? If he wants arcade perfect he might as well just buy the arcade.



Because we're trying to avoid stating the obvious?




quote:
And don't use Mame, piracy is the devil's work!


As is the second-hand market. Close the thread.





quote:
I always assumed that the DC version would at least be better than my slow old PSone version,


It's not necessarily worse. If you want all the animation frames and the shortest loading times, it'll do the job unlike the PS version. Both are far from the arcade, anyhow.




quote:
Seconded. If it passes the Red Falcon test, it should be close enough.

I wouldn't be too scared by upscaled graphics. Although I think they should always be optional, some people actually prefer them and others can't even tell the difference.


Those who prefer them or can't tell are usually the ones who haven't played an arcade machine in their life nor known the goodness of RGB monitors. Upscaling was an artifact just to save RAM on the old PC games.

Whatever the case, the truth is that Fighter's Generation's graphics are far from the original presentation, and that's the only thing he must know before his decision.





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"Re(3):Re(10):Street Fighter Zero collection w" , posted Tue 10 Jul 06:21post reply

quote:

Upscaling was an artifact just to save RAM on the old PC games.



Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. I thought the point in upscaling on home ports was to provide a "smoother" looking picture (which looks "better" on higher resolution TVs) the same as graphic filters on emulators.

Mind you, I'm not arguing the merit or lack thereof here, I'm just talking about the logic behind it.





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"Re(3):Re(10):Street Fighter Zero collection w" , posted Tue 10 Jul 06:28:post reply

quote:

As is the second-hand market. Close the thread.

Nonsense, if you're buying a used PCB, the company at least made some money off of it at some point (barring it being a bootleg, but we're all against them, no?) if you're playing a ROM, you are genuinely "stealing" something you have no right to play. Besides all that, it wasn't a particularly serious comment anyway. I don't think he is really being that particular about the graphics so much as the gameplay (at least that's how I interpreted it) and the Zero collection is perfectly fine in that respect, enough so that it's frequently what tourneys are run off of now (when there are any, it isn't exactly a popular game...). As somebody who owns a Zero 3 board (And Zero 2, among other CPS2 boards..) I can honestly say I pretty much prefer the Zero collection, not only because it isn't a bitch and a half to wire the kick harnesses (my Supergun is currently wired for an Atomiswave) but also because I generally just think the differences are so minimal it doesn't matter, AND because I don't have a Naomi and thusly enjoy being able to play Upper, which as previously stated, I prefer to the earlier revisions of Zero 3 (although I'm in the minority there, people don't like giving up their V-ism craziness.) I used to use an old RGB monitor to play my MVS shit, until it died (the monitor, not the MVS.) I honestly don't care enough about the "look" of the graphics to be bothered to get another. I myself would suggest to him "Get a supergun of some form, buy a Naomi motherboard and Zero 3 Upper software", but as I GENERALLY assume, he isn't really willing to go to that extent, so I'm saying what I think is the best "easily available" version.

Totally off topic, but it occurred to me, Recap, if you are an arcade collector too, have you seen any good deals on a Taito X2 with Battle Fantasia? Can't find it at any of the usual places, was verging on inquiring Fujita to see if they could get one.

Edit: This thread is getting derailed by bickering anyway, so back to the point, Maou: I stand by my recommendation.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Tue 10 Jul 06:59]

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"Re(4):Re(10):Street Fighter Zero collection w" , posted Tue 10 Jul 06:40post reply

quote:

As is the second-hand market. Close the thread.
Nonsense, if you're buying a used PCB, the company at least made some money off of it at some point (barring it being a bootleg, but we're all against them, no?) if you're playing a ROM, you are genuinely "stealing" something you have no right to play.


Not neccessarily true either. The PCB's are out on the second hand market, they were already bought and paid for, yes, but If you have two people, one buys a used PCB, the other buys a rom, either way neither are supporting the company. I do not think there is lost revenue to Capcom in either cases.

If you want to be real silly, one could say the guy who buys the used PCB is the thief because he is not putting money into the hands of Capcom who is offering up SF Zero Collection for sale.





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"Re(5):Re(10):Street Fighter Zero collection w" , posted Tue 10 Jul 06:46:post reply

quote:

Not neccessarily true either. The PCB's are out on the second hand market, they were already bought and paid for, yes, but If you have two people, one buys a used PCB, the other buys a rom, either way neither are supporting the company. I do not think there is lost revenue to Capcom in either cases.

If you want to be real silly, one could say the guy who buys the used PCB is the thief because he is not putting money into the hands of Capcom who is offering up SF Zero Collection for sale.

Come on, you know you're being absurd saying this. When you buy a used game you are exchanging ownership of something that the company has indeed previously made their profit off of; I buy new PCBs WHEN IT IS POSSIBLE, if anyone remembers my purchase of SS Zero, Ibara, or Hokuto. People don't BUY roms, they download them for free, and this DOES damage a company's revenue; we can go back and look at the dumping of MVS roms being directly connected to the bootlegging scene and how it crushed SNK in the late 90's. I'm not going to get in to the whole ROMS argument here again, I've done it countless times in previous years and am really just tired of it. The whole "it's the devils work" was just a bit of brevity, anyway. When you buy something that is used, you are exchanging an item that the company HAS made their profit off of, as you said yourself. (and if you want to get extra "silly", we can start talking about the whole suicide battery issue and paying them to replace them, so they still make money after countless PCB exchanges anyway, INCLUDING FROM ME.. or they did before they stopped supporting them.) And BESIDES ALL THAT, I am advocating he buy the collection, anyway. Is this some bizarre sort of attempt at getting back at me because I don't like the Transformers movie?

And please, let's get back on track here. this thread was about Maou asking about a decent version of Zero 3, not about the legality of second-hand purchases or romming. The damn comment was a bloody joke, I guess more for the long-time members than anything else, if any of them even remember my rom arguments with.. what was his name, DKA (The guy who tried to claim that "If he bought one game from a company, he has the right to pirate other games from them... that's akin to saying "I bought one shirt from this clothing shop, so it's okay if I steal more shirts.") If it would make people happier, I'll just go back and delete it, although I stand by my belief that usage of roms is "stealing", as opposed to the purchasing a used legit PCB.
Edit: There, deleted it. So no more discussion on this matter! Or else!





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Tue 10 Jul 07:11]

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"Let's derail, so." , posted Tue 10 Jul 07:40:post reply

quote:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. I thought the point in upscaling on home ports was to provide a "smoother" looking picture (which looks "better" on higher resolution TVs) the same as graphic filters on emulators.


Well, that could be a reason, but the truth is they upscale the ports' graphics despite not adding a 480p option most of the times, so the actual point, if you ask me, is that they don't care about how it looks at the end (given that the public doesn't, either). Some games used originally weird resolution modes, like Capcom's games, and they just take the easy way to solve the porting issues (even if with the PS2 video hardware the issue is pretty minor, actually).

Anyhow, I was talking about the phenomenon's origin, which is as old as the DOS / PC-88 days.





quote:

I honestly don't care enough about the "look" of the graphics


That's nice, but you didn't know if he does. The fact is that the ports in Fighter's Generation are far from the original for graphical issues, and that's just what I was pointing.





quote:
Totally off topic, but it occurred to me, Recap, if you are an arcade collector too, have you seen any good deals on a Taito X2 with Battle Fantasia? Can't find it at any of the usual places, was verging on inquiring Fujita to see if they could get one.


I'm not an "arcade collector" at all, so can't help you there.





quote:
When you buy a used game you are exchanging ownership of something that the company has indeed previously made their profit off of


Sorry for derailing a bit more, but how that changes the fact that the company makes the very same profit of it than when you download a ROM? Second-hand market is indeed much more harmful than piracy, especially in Japan. I thought that it was quite obvious given the constant (though futile) attempts from the industry to eradicate it.





[this message was edited by Recap on Tue 10 Jul 07:42]

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"Re(1):Let's derail, so." , posted Tue 10 Jul 07:50:post reply

quote:

That's nice, but you didn't know if he does. The fact is that the ports in Fighter's Generation are far from the original for graphical issues, and that's just what I was pointing.
You ignored the rest of my comment there, I more or less admitted I made an assumption which may or may not have been correct. " I don't think he is really being that particular about the graphics so much as the gameplay (at least that's how I interpreted it)" Was that an intentional act on your part just to be argumentative, or did you merely overlook it?

quote:
Sorry for derailing a bit more, but how that changes the fact that the company makes the very same profit of it than when you download a ROM? Second-hand market is indeed much more harmful than piracy, especially in Japan. I thought that it was quite obvious given the constant (though futile) attempts from the industry to eradicate it.

Because when you download a rom, the company never made ANY profit off of it. You are downloading a "phantom object". With your comment, you are completely ignoring the point that the company did indeed make money off of the original sale; as far as they are concerned, it's sold, and particularly if it was an old product, they probably hardly care anymore (which I suppose you could argue is the same with roms.) The "industy" has tried to eradicate romming and piracy just as much if not more; that's why SNK successfully shut down neo geo freak and a number of dumping and bootlegging shops in HK, and why rom sites are frequently shut down (or were, I think it's another issues people have largely just given up on) It's just a much more difficult field to deal with. And you exaggerate the attempts of companies to shut down second hand stores, only a few have ever attempted that (Sony or Nintendo? I forget whom.) Most companies couldn't care less. And besides all that, half of the time they weren't even trying to STOP it so much as they wanted to regulate it, much the same way Japan's music industry regulates used CD sales. It is also debatable whether that whole issue was because they actually felt it was damaging profits OR if they felt they could increase profits by regulating the market, much the same way the aforementioned music industry does, but I am not going to get in to that as it really is open to debate which I am not about to participate in. I honestly don't believe it damaged sales at all, as people buy new products all the time, they don't use "used products" to get past having to buy something. Emulation, PARTICULARLY that of MVS games, was used almost exclusively for that purpose. Besides all that, the majority of rom users (particularly back in the day) downloaded roms specifically to avoid actually having to buy the game, it is, and has ALWAYS been, closely related to the bootlegging and piracy of games. I'm sorry, but second hand products have never driven a company out of business; the dumping of SNK's games and the subsequent bootlegs flooding the market did. Now PLEASE stop, I'm trying to be civil, but it seems like you really just WANT to fight. The comment was a JOKE, I really gave up the whole rom crusade years ago, so PLEASE STOP. If you love playing roms, more power to you, I will continue to not do so. I am NOT trying to be an ass towards you as I have previously found many of your posts informative and intelligent, and I really don't want there to be any bad blood.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Tue 10 Jul 08:04]

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"Re(2):Let's derail, so." , posted Tue 10 Jul 08:15post reply

quote:

Because when you download a rom, the company never made ANY profit off of it.


And when you buy a second-hand game the company is making _the very same_ profit as if you don't buy it. I'm trying, but can't follow your logic.





quote:
The "industy" has tried to eradicate romming and piracy just as much if not more; that's why SNK successfully shut down neo geo freak and a number of dumping and bootlegging shops in HK, and why rom sites are frequently shut down (or were) It's just a much more difficult field to deal with. And you exaggerate the attempts of companies to shut down second hand stores, only a few have ever attempted that (Sony or Nintendo? I forget whom.) Most companies couldn't care less.


Sorry, but did you miss the days when a "No resale" logo was stamped on _every_ Japanese game you bought?




quote:
Besides all that, the majority of rom users (particularly back in the day) downloaded roms specifically to avoid actually having to buy the game, it is, and has ALWAYS been, closely related to the bootlegging and piracy of games. I'm sorry, but second hand products have never driven a company out of business; the dumping of SNK's games and the subsequent bootlegs flooding the market did.


Notice I'm not defending ROM downloading (though I believe ROM downloading and emulation has more to with getting old software the companies don't make profit of than with piracy, but whatever), but attacking second-hand markets. It's totally stupid in my mind bringing up uncalled arguments against those who download ROMs while you're supporting second-hand markets. Not personalizing here, just saying.




quote:
Now PLEASE stop, I'm trying to be civil, but it seems like you really just WANT to fight. The comment was a JOKE, I really gave up the whole rom crusade years ago, so PLEASE STOP. I am NOT trying to be an ass towards you as I have previously found many of your posts informative and intelligent, and I really don't want there to be any bad blood.


What does it supposedly mean? Do you always understand that if somebody just don't share your points of view he wants to "fight"? Seriously...





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"Re(3):Let's derail, so." , posted Tue 10 Jul 08:28:post reply

quote:
And when you buy a second-hand game the company is making _the very same_ profit as if you don't buy it. I'm trying, but can't follow your logic.
Sigh, that's not true.. if it's second hand, they DID make profit off of the original sale.. I've said it several times. It's the same as buying anything else second hand... according to the stock/production records, it's sold, end of story. If you genuinely don't believe this or "buy" this argument, I can't convince you otherwise, so I'm giving up on it.


quote:
Sorry, but did you miss the days when a "No resale" logo was stamped on _every_ Japanese game you bought?
No, although I admittedly had forgotten. The issue was resolved in Japanese courts though, there is nothing wrong with second hand sales. Nowadays they have "No Copy" and "Commercial Use and Rental Prohibited" notices.



quote:
Notice I'm not defending ROM downloading (though I believe ROM downloading and emulation has more to with getting old software the companies don't make profit of than with piracy, but whatever), but attacking second-hand markets. It's totally stupid in my mind bringing up uncalled arguments against those who download ROMs while you're supporting second-hand markets. Not personalizing here, just saying.
Using "stupid" is definately "personalizing". We can agree to disagree on this, I've just been in too many arguments with people here who have more or less argued otherwise during the days of MVS emulation and pretty much stated they used roms to avoid having to buy the games. As I stated before, the dumping of MVS roms was directly connected to the massive amounts of MVS bootlegging and was a direct major contributor to SNK's collapse. Again, if you don't buy this argument, I'm not pressing it anymore. You win.

quote:

What does it supposedly mean? Do you always understand that if somebody just don't share your points of view he wants to "fight"? Seriously...

Sigh.. no, I've just been in this argument many times before, and I'm just burnt out on it. I am perfectly fine with having a civil discussion on the issue, but I am not trying to be rude about it and bring it personal attacks, and many of your responses (including this one) come off as being snide or rude. Hell, even your first post in here, with comments like "He said he's "after arcade perfection", so you can guess he indeed is "anal". Not that you have to be "anal" to understand how ugly upscaled graphics are, but whatever." are rather rude and imply that anyone who feels differently from you is inherently "stupid". The original comment was just a tongue-in-cheek joke for old-timers familiar with my old rants anyway, as I've said repeatedly. Hell, it was a Blackadder reference.. the episode with his Puritan aunt and uncle. It was never intended to be an argument or an attack, just a joke for old time's sake. Hell, I wouldn't have even responded to your reply about it if it hadn't struck me as being rather rude. I'm done with this, though, you are correct and I am wrong.

I'm not going to discuss roms anymore, but
I will continue to give my opinions on the different versions of Zero 3 here, if Maou hasn't made up his mind yet.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Tue 10 Jul 08:58]

Recap
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"Re(4):Let's derail, so." , posted Tue 10 Jul 09:09:post reply

quote:
Sigh, that's not true.. if it's second hand, they DID make profit off of the original sale.. I've said it several times. It's the same as buying anything else second hand... according to the stock/production records, it's sold, end of story. If you genuinely don't believe this or "buy" this argument, I can't convince you otherwise, so I'm giving up on it.


Seems you didn't understand my line. Read it again, because it's pretty much the whole point here. I was saying that if you do buy _a particular used game_ the company is making the very same profit as if you do not buy _that particular used game_. You can, "sigh", genuinely believe that.




quote:
there is nothing wrong with second hand sales.


Legally of course there isn't. Morally though, it has the very same issues as downloading ROMs.




quote:
Using "stupid" is definately "personalizing". We can agree to disagree on this, I've just been in too many arguments with people here who have more or less argued otherwise during the days of MVS emulation and pretty much stated they used roms to avoid having to buy the games. As I stated before, the dumping of MVS roms was directly connected to the massive amounts of MVS bootlegging and was a direct major contributor to SNK's collapse. Again, if you don't buy this argument, I'm not pressing it anymore. You win.


I'll let you know my case, if that serves. I've owned an AES since the very first days till I decided to sell it some years ago. And of course it was due to (thanks to) emulation. I only buy brand-new games and I couldn't get them for my console anymore at reasonable prices, especially because they weren't being made anymore. Besides, I got an emulation set-up which gave me a much better result than the AES itself (as you'll know the RGB output of the system is quite poor, even for the first models), so the console wasn't getting too much attention.




quote:
Sigh.. no, I've just been in this argument many times before, and I'm just burnt out on it. I am perfectly fine with having a civil discussion on the issue, but I am not trying to be rude about it and bring it personal attacks, and many of your responses (including this one) come off as being snide or rude.


Maybe I'm, "sigh", missing something, 'cause I don't see the rudeness on any of the responses you mention.




quote:
The original comment was just a tongue-in-cheek joke for old-timers familiar with my old rants anyway, as I've said repeatedly.


So why can your comments be "tongue-in-cheek jokes" and the others' can't? Don't you notice that if I'm replying (and just that - "replying") is because you have left here much more than a single "tongue-in-cheek joke", but a whole argument?





[this message was edited by Recap on Tue 10 Jul 09:19]

hikarutilmitt
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"Re(1):Let's derail, so." , posted Tue 10 Jul 10:15post reply

quote:
Well, that could be a reason, but the truth is they upscale the ports' graphics despite not adding a 480p option most of the times, so the actual point, if you ask me, is that they don't care about how it looks at the end (given that the public doesn't, either). Some games used originally weird resolution modes, like Capcom's games, and they just take the easy way to solve the porting issues (even if with the PS2 video hardware the issue is pretty minor, actually).


Which is why I'm not against home ports of arcade games, particularly collections, when they include a 480p option like almost all of them do, now. SFZ Collection looks superb with 480p, as do the Sega Genesis Collection and the Capcom Classics Collection 2 discs. Hell, even most SNK ports beyond Mark of the Wolves support 480p (MOTW looks awesome in 480p, in fact).





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"Re(2):Let's derail, so." , posted Tue 10 Jul 10:31post reply

This thread has become surprisingly entertaining. And this is despite the fact that I have no idea what you guys are talking about.





Er.....

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"Re(6):Re(10):Street Fighter Zero collection w" , posted Tue 10 Jul 11:34post reply

quote:

Is this some bizarre sort of attempt at getting back at me because I don't like the Transformers movie?



No, but now that you put the idea in my head...YES!





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"Re(7):Re(10):Street Fighter Zero collection w" , posted Tue 10 Jul 11:42post reply

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No, but now that you put the idea in my head...YES!

Ha ha ha, I KNEW IT. Clive Swift told me.





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"Re(8):Re(10):Street Fighter Zero collection w" , posted Tue 10 Jul 12:25post reply

quote:
No, but now that you put the idea in my head...YES!
Ha ha ha, I KNEW IT. Clive Swift told me.



I put my faith in the words of this man great man





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"good deal" , posted Tue 10 Jul 15:12:post reply

Delightful! Being able to get this kind of discussion about my obscure games is why the Cafe's great. Thanks for all the advice. Can't imagine there's a big need to be quite so cutting while presenting all the good info, whether it's about graphics upscaling or not and people being supposedly too clueless to see it, but such is written communication and the internet. Great advice all around, either way, I appreciate it.

"Evil" Ryu sez: thanks kidz





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

[this message was edited by Maou on Tue 10 Jul 15:32]

jiji
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"resolutions and junk" , posted Wed 11 Jul 01:04post reply

Hoo, well, the resolution issue isn't particularly obscure, nor is it something only purists should worry about. It is a matter of personal taste, though.

I'll break it down: On 32-bit consoles and earlier, when Capcom games were ported, they had to have certain screen elements resized to fit the narrower aspect ratio that consoles used. Usually this took a fair bit of work, and sometimes it didn't turn out that well. Beginning with the DC, full-screen scaling became cheap enough to do that when 2D games from older hardware were ported, developers found that the easiest way to adapt their resolution and aspect ratio was to simply scale the whole screen image to fit the console's display.

This tends to make things look ugly. Things get technical here, but I'll do my best to explain. When you have a high-res image being shown on a TV, the TV only draws half the image at a time. It draws every other line one moment, and all the rest of the lines the next moment. This is especially bad for 2D, because it means that sprites are constantly getting split apart and put back together onscreen. This is ugly. This is why DC 3s looks so much better in its alternate mode, and why DC SFZ3 always looked like junk.

If you want to get an idea of how it looks, try SF3: 3s on DC with the Start+X (upscaled) bootup code, and then try it with the Start+L (deinterlaced) bootup code. (And try it with Start+Y for good measure.)

When older games are displayed upscaled, it's most noticeable on TVs that don't have progressive scan, and the larger the TV you have, the worse it's going to look. If you've never had the difference pointed out to you, you might not notice that there's anything wrong. (The matter seems to be similar to how some people are fine with listening to mp3s at 96khz - they just don't care.)

If you play a lot of 3s in that deinterlaced mode, or if you play DC Jojo and then try switching straight to something like DC Garou, you might start noticing the difference, and it might be hard to switch back.

480p is a better halfway-measure than 480i display, yeah, but it leaves those of us without prog-scan displays - or the desire to use them for 2D games - without a viable display option.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I recommend the Saturn version, as it's the most complete and the most accurate.





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"Re(2):Let's derail, so." , posted Wed 11 Jul 03:49post reply

quote:
Which is why I'm not against home ports of arcade games, particularly collections, when they include a 480p option like almost all of them do, now. SFZ Collection looks superb with 480p, as do the Sega Genesis Collection and the Capcom Classics Collection 2 discs. Hell, even most SNK ports beyond Mark of the Wolves support 480p (MOTW looks awesome in 480p, in fact).


Read my reply to Pollyana. If you find "awesome" upscaled graphics it's either because you missed the original arcade games running at their native mode or because you're used to the old computer games' look and missed, at the same time, progressive low resolution on RGB TVs. I can only suggest you to give it a look at least once. I know of not few people who changed their minds. Make sure you're using a proper set-up, though.

Either way, the point here is that upscaling (whether if displayed through progressive or interlaced modelines is not really relevant) is an _artifact_ which can't be found on the original arcade games.




quote:
Anyway, I'm rambling.


I read it though. It's not "a matter of personal taste", actually, just because the original versions weren't upscaled, but they run at progressive low res modes.

The PS2 is perfectly able to replicate most "arcade resolutions", and RGB TVs are pretty common too (they were not impossible to get in Japan, at least). There's no excuse for what they're doing. A port should be _as accurate as possible_. If they don't even try, the port is anything but "fine" (my point).

Capcom games on 32-bit consoles didn't have "certain screen elements resized", by the way. The PS ports were pretty much perfect resolution-wise, while the SS ones just lost around 30 vertical lines. They didn't redraw anything here, though, and that's why these ports' graphics are always "flattened" compared to the originals.

The DC case is different. This system only displayed 320 vertical lines in its low-res mode. That's more than 60 lost lines compared to the CP-S resolution. Most Capcom ports used this mode, nevertheless. DC Zero 3, for instance, isn't upscaled, but indeed downscaled, much like 3rd Strike in its low-res mode, in order to display the whole area on screen. This, of course, causes some pixel distortion which affect hitboxes and whatnot.





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"Re(3):Let's derail, so." , posted Wed 11 Jul 03:51:post reply

quote:

The DC case is different. This system only displayed 320 vertical lines in its low-res mode. That's more than 60 lost lines compared to the CP-S resolution. Most Capcom ports used this mode, nevertheless. DC Zero 3, for instance, isn't upscaled, but indeed downscaled, much like 3rd Strike in its low-res mode, in order to display the whole area on screen. This, of course, causes some pixel distortion which affect hitboxes and whatnot.

Very noticeable in 3S, where Urien's aegis reflector traps don't work like they are supposed to. When there are no serious gameplay issues with a port, though, it's fine, IMO. As a long time arcade hopper, I personally don't care much how the game looks as long as it plays correctly. Better than playing on countless monitors with a "Winners Don't use Drugs" image burned in to it. Apparently though, Maou, if you are looking for the most accurate version of the graphics, apparently Saturn is the way to go. I still stand by the collection for all the various versions, however (and I still say Upper is the best of the Zero 3 revisions.) If you do come to the con this year, maybe we can play something. I could pop Zero 3 in, but I'm going to force you to try TRF 2 if you're there, haw haw.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Wed 11 Jul 03:59]

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"Re(4):Let's derail, so." , posted Wed 11 Jul 04:45:post reply

Good call, RF. I'll see how Fighter's Generation strikes me, and looking forward to trying Upper. If it's unacceptable I may indeed go with the SS one day. While having the game play properly is most important to me, too, the purist in me agrees with Recap that Capcom really should be doing a better job at these conversions so we don't have to settle for the 'best playing' port instead of an actual 'arcade-perfect' port in all regards. But then again, this is Capcom in 2006/7...


bonus: Really wish I were in DC area so I could join you for some duels at Otakon this year, but maybe this time next year. I see that Sakimoto Hitoshi is a guest, who would be fun to hear from, too...





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

[this message was edited by Maou on Wed 11 Jul 04:47]

hikarutilmitt
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"Re(3):Let's derail, so." , posted Wed 11 Jul 10:56post reply

quote:
Read my reply to Pollyana. If you find "awesome" upscaled graphics it's either because you missed the original arcade games running at their native mode or because you're used to the old computer games' look and missed, at the same time, progressive low resolution on RGB TVs. I can only suggest you to give it a look at least once. I know of not few people who changed their minds. Make sure you're using a proper set-up, though.

Either way, the point here is that upscaling (whether if displayed through progressive or interlaced modelines is not really relevant) is an _artifact_ which can't be found on the original arcade games.


For one, I was more or less an arcade rat between my middle school and end of college years and beyond when I was able to afford it and arcades existed in their previous, good form. Hell, we had a Zero/Alpha 3 cabinet that floated between 2 or 3 arcades here in town that was a test unit and you could tell right away when they updated the software to have new features and non-broken things.

But then you said this earlier:

quote:
There's not a perfect port of Zero 3. The DC version has some graphic issues which even affect gameplay. The best one is the SS version, but still not "arcade perfect" gameplay-wise (you get the 5 extra characters, on the other hand, so maybe it's the version to go with). You always have MAME, which, with the correct set-up, replicates the arcade PCB flawlessly.


You realize that even with the "correct" setup that emulation, no matter how "accurate" to the original code is never 100% perfect, right? I could walk down to my local arcade, play Strikers 1945 II on a real cabinet, then come back from there and play it on MAME or FBA and point out why it feels wrong.





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"Re(5):Let's derail, so." , posted Wed 11 Jul 12:41post reply

quote:
If it's unacceptable I may indeed go with the SS one day.

Try the Zero collection first, but if you end up not liking it, want a copy? As I'm moving, I'm going to clear out some of my collection. The jewel case is a bit beat up, but the disc itself is fine. I have a couple of extra Saturns and a spare ram cart too (it needs it to run). Undead Fred and JJJ can vouch that I'm legit, having traded with them before.





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Maou
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"Re(6):Let's derail, so." , posted Wed 11 Jul 13:06post reply

Much obliged! I think I'll see how this PS2 one treats me over the next month...I might try to stay away from buying a Saturn, though, but I really appreciate the offer. This is coming from a guy who owns both a Japanese and American Mega/Sega CD with the exact same games, so I figure I might try to keep my Sega hardware somewhat limited for awhile, heh...





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

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"Re(7):Let's derail, so." , posted Wed 11 Jul 13:11:post reply

quote:
This is coming from a guy who owns both a Japanese and American Mega/Sega CD with the exact same games, so I figure I might try to keep my Sega hardware somewhat limited for awhile, heh...

Oh wait, you said you have the same games for both systems. Never mind then, brain shutdown! What do you have, anyway? I assume Sonic CD is in there somewhere, and I know it's OT, but which sound track version do you prefer?





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Wed 11 Jul 13:13]

Maou
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"Sonic Boom" , posted Thu 12 Jul 02:44post reply

Off-topic is oh-so-legit in this thread! I just have Sonic CD, Lunar~The Silver Star, and Lunar~Eternal Blue (the latter two being the games that converted me from a young grumbling owner of the system for Sonic's sake into a happpy owner of a three-game system that was woefully underutilized given the amazing things it did with those).

Sonic CD, hmmm...in general, the original is probably a lot better and more consistent, but the opening "Sonic Boom" in the American version is fun (though not as good as "You Can Do Anything"). For me, the last two zones, Stardust Speedway and Metallic Madness are actually massively better in Spenser Nielson's soundtrack, oddly enough. The good future mix of Stardust is simply amazing when it's playing as you race against Metal Sonic, and the good future Metallic gets the futuristic yet happy vibe perfectly while the bad future mix is brilliantly ominous. So I'd play the first five zones in Japanese, then skip to my Stardust Speedway save on the US one, I'd say!





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Recap
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"Re(4):Let's derail, so." , posted Thu 12 Jul 05:05post reply

quote:

For one, I was more or less an arcade rat between my middle school and end of college years and beyond when I was able to afford it and arcades existed in their previous, good form. Hell, we had a Zero/Alpha 3 cabinet that floated between 2 or 3 arcades here in town that was a test unit and you could tell right away when they updated the software to have new features and non-broken things.


Then you should know that SFZ's graphic presentation is about scanlines and not about upscaling. Much like most 2D arcade games.






quote:
You realize that even with the "correct" setup that emulation, no matter how "accurate" to the original code is never 100% perfect, right?


Please, elaborate. Think well your answer; I've been discussing the subject for years now, not to mention I myself have made side-by-side comparisons.





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"fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff" , posted Thu 12 Jul 05:48:post reply

CHOOSE WELL DOCTOR JONES I HAVE STUDIED THIS ALIEN RACE OF TAP DANCING SKELETONS FOR YEARS AND FAILURE TO PROVIDE THE PROPER ANSWER WILL RESULT IN TAP DANCING SO INTENSE AND VIOLENT THAT IT MAY VERY WELL SPLIT THE EARTH IN PERFECT HALVES

EDIT!: TAP TAPPITY BLENDS IN HARMONY WITH THE NATURAL CLACK CLACKETY CLACK CAUSED BY THE SKELETON BONES BEWARE THE SKELELELELELELELELELELELELETONS





ok

[this message was edited by Juan on Thu 12 Jul 05:53]

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"Re(1):fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff" , posted Thu 12 Jul 05:54post reply

And all this time believing that MMC's official buffoon was called 'Onslaught'...!





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"Re(2):fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff" , posted Thu 12 Jul 06:19:post reply

quote:
And all this time believing that MMC's official buffoon was called 'Onslaught'...!




YOU MAY MOCK ME NOW BUT WHEN THE SKELELELELELELELELELETONS COME FOR YOU WITH A HIGHLY UNEVEN TAPPITY TAP TO CLACKETY CLACK RATIO YOU WILL COME RUNNING SEEKING MY VALUABLE WISDOM





ok

[this message was edited by jUAN on Thu 12 Jul 06:21]

hikarutilmitt
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"Re(5):Let's derail, so." , posted Thu 12 Jul 09:27post reply

quote:
Then you should know that SFZ's graphic presentation is about scanlines and not about upscaling. Much like most 2D arcade games.


Funny, because I thought it was about having more "animation style" graphics and sprites.

quote:
Please, elaborate. Think well your answer; I've been discussing the subject for years now, not to mention I myself have made side-by-side comparisons.


I dunno, something to do with software emulation of a system cannot perfectly match the hardware because it IS software emulation. Sound will be different, framerate will be different, timings will be different, you name it. Hell, I already gave you an example when I posted this to begin with.





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"Re(6):Let's derail, so." , posted Thu 12 Jul 22:19:post reply

quote:
Please, elaborate. Think well your answer; I've been discussing the subject for years now, not to mention I myself have made side-by-side comparisons.
"Think well your answer"? You're.. threatening him? This is exactly what I've been talking about, the vast majority of your replies here are either condescending, sarcastic, or in the case of your responses to my last attempt to be civil, mocking.

Anyway, when did you do these amazing "side by side comparisons"? Did you take your computer down to the arcade and compare it visually with some likely old, burned-out cab monitors (while probably ignoring any possible gameplay issues)?
Or was this when you used to own a home cart system, which is unlikely as you said yourself that the video out on the home cart is crap and thusly it wouldn't be POSSIBLE to do an accurate comparison, unless you had a unit with modded vid output.. which I doubt, considering your comment. Or do you know somebody who has a supergun and some legit PCBs who plays said games on an RGB monitor? Regardless, a crapload of games have emulation issues, as hikarutilmitt says. I'm sure there are SOME which are emulated almost perfectly, but a lot (hell, probably the majority) are not, but I admittedly have little experience with them.



You know, I kept thinking about your claims about emulation being equally as moral as buying second hand games, and you know what, the more I thought about it the more I realized it really is just totally wrong. Here is a poorly drawn diagram I made to illustrate the comparitive differences. I'm using SS 0 because of a personal experience I had with it where a friend was emulating it a week after I bought it (and hell, a week after it came out period.)

As is demonstrated, if I were to sell my SS 0 cart, it's almost like "exchanging a right of ownership";I.E., if there was an "owner's license", I would be trading it off to some other person in a monetary exchange. The company made their original money, and REGARDLESS of whether they wanted an "owner's license" format where a buyer would have to sell it back to a state or industry run "game shop" to have it resold for a set price so the company could make money off the resale, there is no "theft" going on. An original copy was sold, and it exchanged hands; their profits were not diluted in any way as there are no "bootlegs" on the market.


The second illustration shows how downloading a rom works (or hell, a bootleg copy or a burn of a CD if we're talking about a CD-based format, what's happening is identical). You are in essence getting a "bootleg copy". It's as if the original purchaser bought it and made a bunch of copies of it and distributed them for free; this DOES damage company's profits in a sense (especially if the game was brand new, ala SS 0) If the game is old, although it will no longer directly affect the company as all extant copies have been sold/lost/destroyed/etc. and they are producing no more, it may seem "okay" on the surface, but it's still akin to flooding the market with bootlegs. They just don't have "physical form". It is still in a sense "stealing", however. If you were to go and buy an original copy, their original profit from the sale would not have been diluted (I.E., say I dumped the rom of SS 0, which cost me 600 new, and 6000 people downloaded a rom; it would be similar to having me sell 6000 copies of the game and selling them for a penny apiece, except that I would have theoretically given them away for free instead.) It's kind of like breaking down their profits so they would have made less and less money off the original sale.

However, as the game was new, Grant's downloading of the rom did INDEED eat in to the company's profits directly; in this situation, it is identical to getting a bootlegged copy, and the massive amount of romming and bootlegging directly damaged SNK in the late 90's (once the roms started to be dumped immediately, HK bootleggers would immediately flood the market with extremely cheap bootlegged carts which most arcades in HK and many other places in Asia would pick up instead of legit copies)

I don't think your claims of there being "moral issues" about both processes is sensible; otherwise second hand sales would probably still be legally questionable. As it is, they are not. Although the game industry wanted to replicate the Recording Industry of Japan's saihanbai kakaku iji seido/resale price maintenence system (This system is why Japanese CD resale prices are so high. It is allegedly designed to keep up fair profits, but the practice has been deemed profiteering in a number of industrial countries and has been banned or is heavily regulated in many, including the UK and the US) where they would set the prices on used games, have them sold via licensed resalers, and would have established dates the games could be sold/when resales would stop (they probably would have used the same little X and Y symbols the Recording Industry uses), they lost and this never happened, and it never would have happened outside of Japan, period. Regardless, this is all why second-hand sales are quite legal and why roms (unless it's licensed, like what Nintendo is doing right now) are generally illegal. Hell, I'm pretty confident that the process of cracking and dumping roms is in of itself illegal.

Edit: Is also occurred to me while I was boxing my remaining stuff up for my move; as I was looking at many old Megadrive, PCE, and Superfami games, I noticed something and figured I'd do a few scans. The "no resale" label is NOT on them. Many of them feature the "Rental Prohibited" or "No commercial use" warnings, but nothing about resales at all; many from the same era as PS also do not have any such warnings. the "no resale" concept dates from the Playstation era and is most definately connected to the transition to CD as the major format.If all of my PS 1 and Saturn stuff weren't boxed already I'd go and check some of those, too, as the more I think about it, the more confident I am that at least one of the big companies didn't participate in the whole issue. As Sony is one of the big players in the Japanese music industry as well, they probably came up with the idea of trying to regulate it in the exact same manner they use in the regulation of CD sales. They lost.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 13 Jul 04:15]

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"Re(6):Let's derail, so." , posted Thu 12 Jul 23:53:post reply

quote:

Funny, because I thought it was about having more "animation style" graphics and sprites.


Do you mean "cel-based animation"? Maybe, but don't you then realize that upscaling puts these graphics further away to that style?





quote:
I dunno, something to do with software emulation of a system cannot perfectly match the hardware because it IS software emulation. Sound will be different, framerate will be different, timings will be different, you name it. Hell, I already gave you an example when I posted this to begin with.


Wrong assumptions, as I supposed. While it's true that 100% perfect emulation is very hard to achieve (much like the PCBs' behaviour is not always 100% "perfect", depending on factors such as voltage adjustments), getting an almost perfect status where the user (_any_ user) can find no differences is possible, and indeed a reality with some systems.

The example you mentioned just didn't serve because the MAME driver for that game is still unfinished.




quote:
"Think well your answer"? You're.. threatening him?


Oh, not really. Just asking him to do some research before starting another pointless discussion. This thread is already full of those, you know.




quote:
This is exactly what I've been talking about, the vast majority of your replies here are either condescending, sarcastic, or in the case of your responses to my last attempt to be civil, mocking.


Maybe because I got tired of so many pointless replies trying to argue the obvious or calling "nonsense", "anal" and whatnot the others' arguments? Stop playing the victim and check the whole thread if you really want an answer.



As for the rest, too long for me right now, I'm sorry.





[this message was edited by Recap on Fri 13 Jul 00:02]

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"Re(7):Let's derail, so." , posted Fri 13 Jul 00:51:post reply

quote:
Maybe because I got tired of so many pointless replies trying to argue the obvious or calling "nonsense", "anal" and whatnot the others' arguments? Stop playing the victim and check the whole thread if you really want an answer.

Ha ha ha ha, oh no sir. Go back and check your earliest posts replying to somebody:
quote:
"The graphical presentation is perfectly fine and even include 480p, which looks quite nice. It's particularly better if you're coming from the PSX and even DC version.
But of course it's not.

quote:if you want the arcade versions without frills and aren't anal about needing scanlines and the original resolution of the arcade board or other such business you'd do well to get the Zero collection.



He said he's "after arcade perfection", so you can guess he indeed is "anal". Not that you have to be "anal" to understand how ugly upscaled graphics are, but whatever."


In neither case was anyone rude or insulting towards you, yet you clearly have an attitude in both, implying anyone who feels differently from you is either flat out wrong or is an "idiot". As for my original comment about "Mame being the devil's work", which I deleted after people "complained" so as to attempt to avoid this ENTIRE argument, it wasn't even serious, it was largely a joke and a reference to BlackAdder's puritan aunt and uncle. I tried to be nice to you and you were consistently rude; even if you're "tired" of the issue, as I am VERY tired of it, that gives you no right to act like a jerk. Now I'M being caustic and condescending. By the way, what ever happened to your "side by side" comparisons? As for your claims about "no user" being able to find any differences, that's quite an assumption; we could argue the same with some of these ports, where if people WEREN'T obsessive about scanlines or whatnot but cared about.. hmm, gameplay, they wouldn't be able to tell any difference. As for the voltage issue, you're clutching at straws; you can easily set voltage on any cab or supergun, and most PCBs tell you the voltage requirements if you have the operator's manual.
You really aren't any different from the ancient rom trolls here like DKA and Shinyojimbo, you just used a new argument which took some getting used to (I.E., "It's just as wrong as buying a second hand game!" instead of "I'm entitled to it because games are too expensive!") And to top it all off, if you honestly considered all of these posts "pointless", why did you bother replying to even a single one of them?





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 13 Jul 02:22]

Maou
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"Re(8):Let's derail, so." , posted Fri 13 Jul 01:38post reply

Both sides of that debate are interesting (and thoroughly displayed here at this point)...Red Falcon's distribution point I liked, since the sheer volume of people who can play a game without paying the original creators is vastly greater when it's a ROM as opposed to a second-hand copy which still costs money and thus dissuades certain numbers of people from buying it (or whose price makes them just go ahead and buy it new). Whatever "moral" issues aside, it's definitely true that more people play the game without paying the original company via ROMs. Intriguing!

Recap has great information to share, too, though I would agree that presenting it in a little more friendly a manner might make discussion more enjoyable. Reminds me of the same thing when Tim used to post here. Of the IC crew, Brandon always seemed to have it down best since he'd make his good points but remain utterly pleasant throughout. Speaking of which, where is he lately, on an exodus?





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"Re(9):Let's derail, so." , posted Fri 13 Jul 02:23:post reply

quote:
Of the IC crew, Brandon always seemed to have it down best since he'd make his good points but remain utterly pleasant throughout. Speaking of which, where is he lately, on an exodus?

He still posts here regularly, doesn't he? I think I see him online a lot, anyway.

Edit: An amusing pun too, ha ha ha.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 13 Jul 04:15]

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"HOW IS BABBY FORMED" , posted Fri 13 Jul 08:05:post reply

quote:
Do you mean "cel-based animation"? Maybe, but don't you then realize that upscaling puts these graphics further away to that style?

Wait... so... upscaling a sprite negates it being cel-animated? That's like saying blowing up a photograph in Photoshop to 3 times the size makes it stop being a photograph.

EDIT: HOW GIRL GET PRAGNENT





[this message was edited by Undead Fred on Fri 13 Jul 08:12]

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"Re(9):Let's derail, so." , posted Fri 13 Jul 09:26post reply

"On topic" (though I'd say that's relative now)

I didn't know the DC had different display modes! That's really interesting! Is there another system with something like this? Some bootup code I don't happen to know?

Aaaand...

quote:
Of the IC crew, Brandon always seemed to have it down best since he'd make his good points but remain utterly pleasant throughout.


Now now, that's like saying "of the Mexicans on the board" or "of the homosexuals on the board". I see what you mean, but don't think it's fair to make a distinction between members like that.

And since we're talking about what people are talking about I can see where Recap might want to be rude, since there's a definite miscommunication here (as in people aren't getting his point/he isn't getting his point across) but I think denying that he's being rude is ridiculous.





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"Re(10):Let's derail, so." , posted Fri 13 Jul 09:38post reply

quote:
And since we're talking about what people are talking about I can see where Recap might want to be rude...

That is no reason to actually be so. We've gotten in arguments before, polly, but they were nothing too harsh or whatever, and I don't think either of us bear any grudges. I really just can't stand people like Recap who act like this even when people are trying HARD to be polite to him. There are many more constructive ways to get your point across than to resort to "standard internet jerk" mode. Let's let this thread die a quiet death, no more revivals.





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"FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF" , posted Fri 13 Jul 09:46post reply

quote:



And since we're talking about what people are talking about I can see where Recap might want to be rude, since there's a definite miscommunication here (as in people aren't getting his point/he isn't getting his point across) but I think denying that he's being rude is ridiculous.


And since we're talking about what people are talking about I can see where Recap might want to be rude, since there's a definite miscommunication here (as in people aren't getting his point/he isn't getting his point across) but I think denying that he's being rude is ridiculous.

And since we're talking about what people are talking about I can see where Recap might want to be rude, since there's a definite miscommunication here (as in people aren't getting his point/he isn't getting his point across) but I think denying that he's being rude is ridiculous.

And since we're talking about what people are talking about I can see where Recap might want to be rude, since there's a definite miscommunication here (as in people aren't getting his point/he isn't getting his point across) but I think denying that he's being rude is ridiculous.




They need to do way instain mother> who kill thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back? it was on the news this mroing a mother in ar who had kill her three kids. they are taking the three babby back to new york too lady to rest my pary are with the father who lost his children ; i am truley sorry for your lots





ok

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"With the buffoon's permission." , posted Fri 13 Jul 10:15post reply

quote:

Wait... so... upscaling a sprite negates it being cel-animated? That's like saying blowing up a photograph in Photoshop to 3 times the size makes it stop being a photograph.



Yeah, _digital_ upscaling "negates" part of the essence of cel-based animation, much like it does with photography. So?




quote:
I didn't know the DC had different display modes! That's really interesting! Is there another system with something like this? Some bootup code I don't happen to know?


Almost every system you can think of has different display modes. It doesn't mean you can change it manually for every game; it has to be programmed to do so. DC 3rd Strike and the latest PS2 Sega Ages 2500 are very probably all the examples you will find, I'm afraid.




quote:
And since we're talking about what people are talking about I can see where Recap might want to be rude, since there's a definite miscommunication here (as in people aren't getting his point/he isn't getting his point across) but I think denying that he's being rude is ridiculous.


Where was I, exactly? (Which wasn't reactive, that is).




quote:
Let's let this thread die a quiet death, no more revivals.


Fella, it's the third time in this thread you order silence while feeding it with a pretty provocative line. Stick to your... arguments? and let the people do their daily interweb stuff.





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"Re(1):With the buffoon's permission." , posted Fri 13 Jul 10:19:post reply

quote:

Fella, it's the third time in this thread you order silence while feeding it with a pretty provocative line. Stick to your... arguments? and let the people do their daily interweb stuff.

I'm REQUESTING it, not "ordering" it, and frankly you've made me angry, so I am indeed being rude to you in return now. Go back and check what I've already written, you were rude in your very first replies with no provocation at all. Who's playing "the victim" now? You managed to reply in a moderately polite manner to Polly while simultaneously trying to play innocent, but seriously, but one would THINK you would start to notice numerous people have stated "you are rude" and you MIGHT consider either going back and acknowledging it OR apologize. Or better yet, go away. And seriously, what about those "side by side comparisons"? I'm very keen to know about them.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 13 Jul 10:21]

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"Re(2):With the buffoon's permission." , posted Fri 13 Jul 10:22:post reply

I'll REQUEST you then to not meddle in what I said to others and to refer to yourself's behavoiur. That "Nonsense" line is a good start.





[this message was edited by Recap on Fri 13 Jul 10:24]

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"Re(3):With the buffoon's permission." , posted Fri 13 Jul 10:23:post reply

quote:
I'll REQUEST you then to don't meddle in what I said others and to refer to yourself's behavoiur. That "Nonsense" line is a good start.

Read the remainder of the post and see how it is indeed quite polite and tries to be conciliatory, and indeed I responded in turn to your original "So is second hand purchasing. Close the thread" comment, which frankly got right up my nose. That still doesn't change that you were rude to others even BEFORE I started to address you. I also find it amusing that you continue to ignore any statements that do not mesh with your arguments, but now are only focusing on the one thing you actually DO know what you're talking about. You also are ignoring the fact that other people are obviously taking some degree of offense at your attitude. Shame I'm the only person calling you on it. I repeat, who's playing the victim? And I'm still eager to hear about your "side by side" comparisons.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 13 Jul 10:29]

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"The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Caliiiiii" , posted Fri 13 Jul 10:35:post reply

Maybe "terse" is closer than rude, and far be it from me to judge different visitors based on their internet or real-life point of origin (nice one, Polly, heheh), but the matter-of-fact tone from the start might put people off, though I understand that Recap feels strongly about good conversions and agree that they should be done with better care than they are.

The curt "But it isn't of course" to hikarutilmitt's very early point (="you're wrong, you idiot") might be interpreted as impolite, as might the mocking of Red Falcon's sighs or the "no offense but bringing ____ argument in is stupid." I think Recap has some really awesome points and I actually am fascinated by the graphical discussion of things I know so little about, but I might have been bothered if said comments were aimed at me. There's probably more effective ways to argue one's point on things that seem obvious to onesellf.

I think an analogous case is Oliver Hague who shows up here occasionally. He always has excellent information, but his acerbic tone invariably puts people off, which is a shame given that there could have been more interesting threads. Same was true with Tim, whose writing I enjoy a lot but whose tone on this board rubbed people in seriously the wrong way.

But at any rate, I seriously appreciate the advice from Recap, Red Falcon, hikarutilmitt and all others. And if Fred doesn't tell ME where babies come from I'm really going to be confused. Kushuna maybe?

edit: no, I like Juan's answer better. This thread reminds me of this






人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 13 Jul 11:02]

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"Re(1):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Fri 13 Jul 10:44:post reply

Really sorry about this all, Maou, I feel bad about it, ha ha ha. I really just can't take this sort of stuff, though. I agree though, I think Juan has the right idea.

Edit: Also, this is how babby is formed.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 13 Jul 10:46]

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"WE NEED TO MAKE WAY INSTAIN MOTHER" , posted Fri 13 Jul 11:38post reply

quote:

Wait... so... upscaling a sprite negates it being cel-animated? That's like saying blowing up a photograph in Photoshop to 3 times the size makes it stop being a photograph.


Yeah, _digital_ upscaling "negates" part of the essence of cel-based animation, much like it does with photography. So?

What's the "so?" supposed to mean? It doesn't. You have no idea what you're talking about. End of story. This isn't a "water-to-ice" change of state, this is "balloon with some air VS balloon with a lot of air" situation. They're not two different things; it's the same thing blown up. It didn't start as stop-motion and suddenly become Flash vector-based animation. It's the same style of animation, but in digital form and size-adjusted. It's the same thing, but bigger. Therefore, the ESSENCE is still exactly the same, whether it's as large as the head of an eraser, or takes up the entire screen. It's still the traditional hand-drawn style animation in digital form and made into a sprite on the screen. You have no idea what you're talking about.

If you meant, "I don't like how it gets degraded as the size increases," then that's a totally different matter. But that still doesn't affect the "essence" of the animation as you called it. Ragged edges have nothing to do with whether or not an animation is beautiful or if a character design is cool or how the game plays or story works.





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"Re(1):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Fri 13 Jul 12:59post reply

quote:


The curt "But it isn't of course" to hikarutilmitt's very early point (="you're wrong, you idiot") might be interpreted as impolite, as might the mocking of Red Falcon's sighs or the "no offense but bringing ____ argument in is stupid." I think Recap has some really awesome points and I actually am fascinated by the graphical discussion of things I know so little about, but I might have been bothered if said comments were aimed at me.



Since you seem to like this stuff:


Recap: "SFZ Fighter's Generation does have a severe problem with the graphics' presentation, I'm afraid. Run away from it if you're really after arcade perfection."



hikarutilmitt: "The graphical presentation is perfectly fine and even include 480p, which looks quite nice. It's particularly better if you're coming from the PSX and even DC version."

"Basically, if you want World Tour mode you should stick with one of the three home ports, if you want the arcade versions without frills and aren't anal ..."

[="Ignore what anal people have to say, I speak the truth" (despite being quite wrong, by the way)]


I kind of feel myself stupid for having to write clarifications like this, honestly. I pretty much believe that hikarutilmitt knew that he was hanging out in the kitchen and that he could be taking some heat (though I don't find my reply to that that "impolite", but whatever), so please, just leave the complain labor to him, in case _he_ really thinks there's a reason to do it.





quote:
What's the "so?" supposed to mean? It doesn't. You have no idea what you're talking about. End of story. This isn't a "water-to-ice" change of state, this is "balloon with some air VS balloon with a lot of air" situation. They're not two different things; it's the same thing blown up. It didn't start as stop-motion and suddenly become Flash vector-based animation. It's the same style of animation, but in digital form and size-adjusted. It's the same thing, but bigger. Therefore, the ESSENCE is still exactly the same, whether it's as large as the head of an eraser, or takes up the entire screen. It's still the traditional hand-drawn style animation in digital form and made into a sprite on the screen. You have no idea what you're talking about.

If you meant, "I don't like how it gets degraded as the size increases," then that's a totally different matter. But that still doesn't affect the "essence" of the animation as you called it. Ragged edges have nothing to do with whether or not an animation is beautiful or if a character design is cool or how the game plays or story works.


So you even can't say the difference between "digital" and "analog" and you dare to say I have no idea? Best post in the whole thread, fella. And that's saying something.





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"Re(2):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Fri 13 Jul 13:08:post reply

quote:
hikarutilmitt: "The graphical presentation is perfectly fine and even include 480p, which looks quite nice. It's particularly better if you're coming from the PSX and even DC version."

"Basically, if you want World Tour mode you should stick with one of the three home ports, if you want the arcade versions without frills and aren't anal ..."

[="Ignore what anal people have to say, I speak the truth" (despite being quite wrong, by the way)]

Uhh, no. His response wasn't addressed towards you, and it was quite polite, there was NO attack whatsoever on you. It goes back to your claim that my attitude is "anyone who disagrees with you wants to fight", despite my constant attempts to argue it in a reasonable manner AND stop the argument, period. It seems you yourself believe this, as you decided to attack Hikarutilmitt for what was only his opinion.


quote:
I kind of feel myself stupid for having to write clarifications like this, honestly. I pretty much believe that hikarutilmitt knew that he was hanging out in the kitchen and that he could be taking some heat (though I don't find my reply to that that "impolite", but whatever), so please, just leave the complain labor to him, in case _he_ really thinks there's a reason to do it.
This is a really sorry attempt to shift blame from yourself to somebody who antagonized you in no way whatsoever. In fact, your comment about me "thinking anyone who disagrees with me is trying to fight" makes your statement here extremely hypocritical. He had a difference of opinion and stated it without addressing you in ANY manner other than to say he disagrees; he does not imply you are stupid in any way or mock you or insult you, yet you immediately do that to him in response. To be frank, "fella", I am going to ride you in this thread until you apologize to everyone for being a jerk needlessly from the very beginning and consistently. And hey, side-by-side comparisons?





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 13 Jul 13:16]

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"Re(3):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Fri 13 Jul 13:36post reply

quote:

Uhh, no. His response wasn't addressed towards you, and it was quite polite, there was NO attack whatsoever on you. It goes back to your claim that my attitude "anyone who disagrees with you wants to fight". It seems you yourself believe this, as you decided to attack Hikarutilmitt for what was only his opinion.


quote:
so please, just leave the complain labor to him, in case _he_ really thinks there's a reason to do it.







quote:
he does not imply you are stupid in any way or mock you or insult you, yet you immediately do that to him in response.


How do I exactly? By saying "But of course it isn't"? This is getting too lame, fella.





quote:
And hey, side-by-side comparisons?


Sure:

Recap: "There's not a perfect port of Zero 3. The DC version has some graphic issues which even affect gameplay. The best one is the SS version, but still not "arcade perfect" gameplay-wise (you get the 5 extra characters, on the other hand, so maybe it's the version to go with). You always have MAME, which, with the correct set-up, replicates the arcade PCB flawlessly."

Red Falcon: "Trust me, just go with the Zero collection."

"And don't use Mame, piracy is the devil's work!"



Recap: "As is the second-hand market. Close the thread."



Red Falcon: "Nonsense, if you're buying a used PCB, the company at least made some money off of it at some point" [He didn't get the point, he still uses "nonsense"]


crazymike: "Not neccessarily true either..."


Red Falcon: "Come on, you know you're being absurd saying this. When you buy a used game you are exchanging ownership of something that the company has indeed previously made their profit off of...". [Still missing the point]


Recap: "Sorry for derailing a bit more, but how that changes the fact that the company makes the very same profit of it than when you download a ROM? ..."


Red Falcon: "Because when you download a rom, the company never made ANY profit off of it." [Yeah, he misses the point once again]

...

"Now PLEASE stop, I'm trying to be civil, but it seems like you really just WANT to fight." [!?]


Recap: "And when you buy a second-hand game the company is making _the very same_ profit as if you don't buy it. I'm trying, but can't follow your logic."


Red Falcon: "Sigh, that's not true.. if it's second hand, they DID make profit off of the original sale.." [Yep, misses the point for the fourth time]


etc


Close enough?





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"Re(4):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Fri 13 Jul 13:45:post reply

quote:
How do I exactly? By saying "But of course it isn't"? This is getting too lame, fella.

Indeed, that's exactly what you did! Your response to it was extremely sarcastic and caustic. If he thinks it's fine, he's entitled to his opinion. His opinion isn't "wrong", as saying "of course it isn't" more or less states point-blank.
quote:
blah blah blah blah blah blah


You know I was talking about your magical "emulator to arcade game side-by-side comparison" which you have conspicuously ignored this entire time, and I find it amusing you have clearly ignored my large written response to you on this entire subject complete with illustrations. Hell, since you ignored it, I'll post it down here again to make it easier for you:

Anyway, when did you do these amazing "side by side comparisons"? Did you take your computer down to the arcade and compare it visually with some likely old, burned-out cab monitors (while probably ignoring any possible gameplay issues)?
Or was this when you used to own a home cart system, which is unlikely as you said yourself that the video out on the home cart is crap and thusly it wouldn't be POSSIBLE to do an accurate comparison, unless you had a unit with modded vid output.. which I doubt, considering your comment. Or do you know somebody who has a supergun and some legit PCBs who plays said games on an RGB monitor? Regardless, a crapload of games have emulation issues, as hikarutilmitt says. I'm sure there are SOME which are emulated almost perfectly, but a lot (hell, probably the majority) are not, but I admittedly have little experience with them.



You know, I kept thinking about your claims about emulation being equally as moral as buying second hand games, and you know what, the more I thought about it the more I realized it really is just totally wrong. Here is a poorly drawn diagram I made to illustrate the comparitive differences. I'm using SS 0 because of a personal experience I had with it where a friend was emulating it a week after I bought it (and hell, a week after it came out period.)

As is demonstrated, if I were to sell my SS 0 cart, it's almost like "exchanging a right of ownership";I.E., if there was an "owner's license", I would be trading it off to some other person in a monetary exchange. The company made their original money, and REGARDLESS of whether they wanted an "owner's license" format where a buyer would have to sell it back to a state or industry run "game shop" to have it resold for a set price so the company could make money off the resale, there is no "theft" going on. An original copy was sold, and it exchanged hands; their profits were not diluted in any way as there are no "bootlegs" on the market.


The second illustration shows how downloading a rom works (or hell, a bootleg copy or a burn of a CD if we're talking about a CD-based format, what's happening is identical). You are in essence getting a "bootleg copy". It's as if the original purchaser bought it and made a bunch of copies of it and distributed them for free; this DOES damage company's profits in a sense (especially if the game was brand new, ala SS 0) If the game is old, although it will no longer directly affect the company as all extant copies have been sold/lost/destroyed/etc. and they are producing no more, it may seem "okay" on the surface, but it's still akin to flooding the market with bootlegs. They just don't have "physical form". It is still in a sense "stealing", however. If you were to go and buy an original copy, their original profit from the sale would not have been diluted (I.E., say I dumped the rom of SS 0, which cost me 600 new, and 6000 people downloaded a rom; it would be similar to having me sell 6000 copies of the game and selling them for a penny apiece, except that I would have theoretically given them away for free instead.) It's kind of like breaking down their profits so they would have made less and less money off the original sale.

However, as the game was new, Grant's downloading of the rom did INDEED eat in to the company's profits directly; in this situation, it is identical to getting a bootlegged copy, and the massive amount of romming and bootlegging directly damaged SNK in the late 90's (once the roms started to be dumped immediately, HK bootleggers would immediately flood the market with extremely cheap bootlegged carts which most arcades in HK and many other places in Asia would pick up instead of legit copies)

I don't think your claims of there being "moral issues" about both processes is sensible; otherwise second hand sales would probably still be legally questionable. As it is, they are not. Although the game industry wanted to replicate the Recording Industry of Japan's saihanbai kakaku iji seido/resale price maintenence system (This system is why Japanese CD resale prices are so high. It is allegedly designed to keep up fair profits, but the practice has been deemed profiteering in a number of industrial countries and has been banned or is heavily regulated in many, including the UK and the US) where they would set the prices on used games, have them sold via licensed resalers, and would have established dates the games could be sold/when resales would stop (they probably would have used the same little X and Y symbols the Recording Industry uses), they lost and this never happened, and it never would have happened outside of Japan, period. Regardless, this is all why second-hand sales are quite legal and why roms (unless it's licensed, like what Nintendo is doing right now) are generally illegal. Hell, I'm pretty confident that the process of cracking and dumping roms is in of itself illegal.

Edit: Is also occurred to me while I was boxing my remaining stuff up for my move; as I was looking at many old Megadrive, PCE, and Superfami games, I noticed something and figured I'd do a few scans. The "no resale" label is NOT on them. Many of them feature the "Rental Prohibited" or "No commercial use" warnings, but nothing about resales at all; many from the same era as PS also do not have any such warnings. the "no resale" concept dates from the Playstation era and is most definately connected to the transition to CD as the major format.If all of my PS 1 and Saturn stuff weren't boxed already I'd go and check some of those, too, as the more I think about it, the more confident I am that at least one of the big companies didn't participate in the whole issue. As Sony is one of the big players in the Japanese music industry as well, they probably came up with the idea of trying to regulate it in the exact same manner they use in the regulation of CD sales. They lost.

Although I'm sure you will "miss the point" of this, as you have done this entire time with ANYTHING that doesn't support anything you say, here it is for your convenience. I'm amazed you've tried to stop shifting blame from yourself to Hikarutilmitt for being the "first ass" in this thread; perhaps you accept the reality of the situation finally? Do you accept the hypocrisy of your recent claims as well which conflict with your accusations of me "assuming any disagreement is fighting" (which is funny, as I frequently get in disagreements here which aren't fights and don't approach anything to this level) the exact philosophy of which you used to legitimize your attitude towards other posters in this thread?





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 13 Jul 14:25]

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"Re(2):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Fri 13 Jul 13:46post reply

quote:
So you even can't say the difference between "digital" and "analog" and you dare to say I have no idea? Best post in the whole thread, fella. And that's saying something.

Wait, I'm still confused. You're saying it changes the nature of the animation whether the characters are shot with a camera and put on film or scanned in and pixelated, even though the individual frames are drawn by an artist and colored and placed in sequence? That changed the method of animation somehow? It suddenly ceases to be based on the traditional hand-drawn form of animation and becomes an entirely different method (and apparently only because it's low resolution and blown up larger instead of created in a higher resolution)? We're not talking about the resolution of the image. We're talking about the method of animation and what that entails (not quite a media argument, but a method argument). They're still having to draw each frame, color them, and place them in order. It's still the same method as cel animation, except in digital format. You were basically saying that the resolution of the sprite changes whether or not it is cel-based animation, which is completely wrong and absolutely ignorant of animation as a whole. HOW DARE I ALERT THE INTERNET

That's fine, maybe you don't understand the terminology. But I do. And based on your last posts, I realized I'm not speaking in the proper format. So let me conclude by saying they need to do way instain mother> who kill thier babbys- you, not me. becuse these babby cant frigth back, fella? it was on the news this mroing a mother in ar who had kill her three kids, good sir. how dare they are taking the three babby back to new york too lady to rest my pary are with the father who lost his children ; check the thread. i am truley sorry for your lots, buffoon.





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"Re(4):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Fri 13 Jul 13:49:post reply

I'm totally stoked about how long the thread takes to load~

and also that it started from a simple Zero 3 conversation

ahhh remember Rashoumon?





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 13 Jul 13:51]

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"Re(5):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Fri 13 Jul 14:09:post reply

quote:
ahhh remember Rashoumon?

HA HA HA HA, you know... I was thinking the same thing earlier. This thread is taking far too long to load for me, I think I'm done (finally, ha ha ha)





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 13 Jul 14:26]

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"Re(6):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Fri 13 Jul 14:26post reply

While I can't possibly agree that downloading a game and buying a used game are morally the same, looking back, I think I finally understand what Recap is trying to say. So let me put it in retard-talk so my brain can get it.

In any individual case, buying a used game, or getting a rom does not give the company any profit. Someone had to buy the game to make the ROM and someone had to buy the game for you to buy it used.

The second hand market is more detrimental than emulation in Japan, because buying used games is extremely widespread, and emulation as an alternative to buying games is considerably less common in the big picture.

Is that right? Because both of those statements make perfect sense to me, although it makes it sound like "transferring ownership" (good way to put it, Red Falcon) and outright stealing a game are on the same moral level, which I think is more than a little silly.

I'm not trying to argue one way or the other, but I wanted to see where this went wrong. In my head, Red Falcon has made good points about emulation, but misunderstood Recap's original argument (as did I) and continued a wave or miscommunication.





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"Re(7):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Fri 13 Jul 14:33:post reply

quote:
While I can't possibly agree that downloading a game and buying a used game are morally the same, looking back, I think I finally understand what Recap is trying to say. So let me put it in retard-talk so my brain can get it.

In any individual case, buying a used game, or getting a rom does not give the company any profit. Someone had to buy the game to make the ROM and someone had to buy the game for you to buy it used.

The second hand market is more detrimental than emulation in Japan, because buying used games is extremely widespread, and emulation as an alternative to buying games is considerably less common in the big picture.

Is that right? Because both of those statements make perfect sense to me, although it makes it sound like "transferring ownership" (good way to put it, Red Falcon) and outright stealing a game are on the same moral level, which I think is more than a little silly.

I'm not trying to argue one way or the other, but I wanted to see where this went wrong. In my head, Red Falcon has made good points about emulation, but misunderstood Recap's original argument (as did I) and continued a wave or miscommunication.

I continue to disagree, I'm afraid, Polly. I feel a bit peevish saying this, but you aren't trying to "fan the flames of conflict" for your own "Devilish" (your avatar, ha ha ha) amusement, are you? Anyway, even if your translated version is correct in terms of what recap meant, I just find it to be a totally flawed claim. I know Recap is going to try and jump on this to save face, but emulation is a widespread problem everywhere, INCLUDING in Japan, and was at one point directly connected to the bootlegging of arcade boards (and if we want to go waaay back, Famicom carts... Nintendo of Japan even asked the British Government of Hong Kong at the time to intervene on their behalf, but it didn't do any good.) Even if it is "detrimental" to the Japanese market, it is still totally incomparable to romming, which is identical to making a copy, as I've stated in my large thread. When you sell a used game, the game was sold originally and there are no "copies" diluting that original sale's profits for the company (as I said, if I bought a cart for 600 and sold it, the company still made that original 600 and there are no "phantom copies" circulating that they didn't manufacture.) When you download a rom, you are in essence making a "copy"; it really isn't any different than burning a copy of a CD game to play it, it's just in a different format because the games are in a different format, period. As I said, I'm sure Recap is going to jump on this and say this is what he meant even if he DIDN'T, just because your argument actually makes sense. Did you read my entire post, by the way? If not, I suggest you go back and do.
Regardless, I think this would be one of those "we just have to agree to disagree" situations if it was what he intended. That still doesn't excuse his rudeness in this entire thread, though.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 13 Jul 14:40]

Professor
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"Thread Fixed!" , posted Fri 13 Jul 23:33:post reply

I've fixed the thread! Had to delete a few posts by Juan though, his quotes were bloating stuff. Hope he doesn't mind.



Now about this discussion. First up, illegal roms (both tangible and data form) are plain simply harmful to publishers and I can't see it being equally compared to used games. It's true that publishers don't make any additional money from the sales of used games; for every used game sold, they're losing out on profit when compared to it being purchased new. But at least they can re-release titles at a competitve budget price and rake in a piece of the pie. On the other hand, counterfeits obviously go at uncompetable prices (or in cases of rom data, zip zero none), and it's a major issue that must be legally handled.

Also keep in mind that counterfeit roms can create other problems, including damage to corporate/brand image. Like with the case of NGFreak, which made low-quality SNK roms, and sold them as them authentic. I remember the issue with its stickers and manuals too.




BTW, The topic of used game sales is pretty interesting. The situation is probably different between countries and thus so, it'd be naive to simply just say that it's good or bad. I'm going to talk about the situation in Japan, which I hope may interest some people.


One of the things that shouldn't be forgotten is that publishers aren't the only players in the videogame market. Retailers play the other half of bringing games to consumers, and they've got a tough time. Leaving aside the major players like the nationwide electronic chains, many of the Japanese stores *need* to deal with used videogames in order to survive, especially given the low profit margin from selling new games. Used games may be a pain to the publishers, but at least in Japan's situation, it's supporting the other end of the industry, and helping the market from scaling down.


There was a whole fiasco concerning used games in Japan a while back, with the game publishers going head to head agaist the retailers. The publishers took the issue all the way to surpreme court, trying to exterminate the sales of used games in the country. They appealed to the court that videogames are the same as movies, claiming they should have redistribution rights as publishers, and the concept of consumer ownership should be invalid.

In 2002, the court decided in favor of the retailer's association (ARTS), concluding that videogames are subject to the same redistribution rights as movies, but they become void as soon as they hit the stores, and consumers gain ownership to their copy (kind of like how when a movie gets released on DVD).


Let's not forget about the consumers either, who, as always, are street smart. Japan doesn't have a videogame rental scheme like the States. So as an alternative, consumers are more prone to purchase and sell their games used. It should also be noted that used games are generally dealt in mint condition, so consumers aren't reluctant to use them. Not sticky with gum, soiled, or with teared manual pages. Another reason for the publishers to fret.

Ever since the surpreme court decision, publishers are making more effort to re-release titles at lower prices to compete with the used game market. It's pretty scary to see Konami slashing their game prices by like 60 percent in just a couple of months. But if a consumer can get an unopened "Best" edition package at around the same price of a used game, chances are, they would.

Of course not all games are re-released; it's mostly the major hits. So there's still a big market for used games. And especially for older titles that are out of print.

But as of now, it still doesn't seem like Japanese publishers understand the retailers in their country. Around last June, Koei with the help of a few other publishers tried to implement a rental system and failed miserably from finding any tenants after proposing their ludicrous setup fees and petty margins.




Now, with all that said. This is supposed to be a SFA3 thread, non? TRIUMPH OR DIE!





[this message was edited by Professor on Sat 14 Jul 02:03]

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"Re(8):Let's derail, so." , posted Sat 14 Jul 00:04post reply

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Hope he doesn't mind.


YOUR HONOR THIS IS AN OUTRAGE





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"Re(1):Thread Fixed!" , posted Sat 14 Jul 01:27:post reply

Thanks, Professor. I mentioned some of that stuff in my long post that... people seemed to ignore, but you fleshed it out a bit more (I guess being there while this stuff was happening helps a lot, ha ha ha.)

BEWARE AS HE CREEPS ON UP THE STAIRS...





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Sat 14 Jul 01:30]

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"Re(3):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 01:31post reply

quote:

Wait, I'm still confused. You're saying it changes the nature of the animation whether the characters are shot with a camera and put on film or scanned in and pixelated, even though the individual frames are drawn by an artist and colored and placed in sequence? That changed the method of animation somehow? It suddenly ceases to be based on the traditional hand-drawn form of animation and becomes an entirely different method (and apparently only because it's low resolution and blown up larger instead of created in a higher resolution)? We're not talking about the resolution of the image. We're talking about the method of animation and what that entails (not quite a media argument, but a method argument). They're still having to draw each frame, color them, and place them in order. It's still the same method as cel animation, except in digital format. You were basically saying that the resolution of the sprite changes whether or not it is cel-based animation, which is completely wrong and absolutely ignorant of animation as a whole.


You didn't fucking get it, but somehow it doesn't surprise me. I never talked about the "method of animation" at all, but about how the elements in cel-based animation are displayed and how it handles _scaling_, which is never digitally, even when it uses a digital medium. Since I don't think you'll be getting it yet, I'll rephrase it for you: The look of "pixelated" sprites opposes the one of cel-based animation.

Easy, wasn't it?




quote:
While I can't possibly agree that downloading a game and buying a used game are morally the same, looking back, I think I finally understand what Recap is trying to say. So let me put it in retard-talk so my brain can get it.

In any individual case, buying a used game, or getting a rom does not give the company any profit. Someone had to buy the game to make the ROM and someone had to buy the game for you to buy it used.

The second hand market is more detrimental than emulation in Japan, because buying used games is extremely widespread, and emulation as an alternative to buying games is considerably less common in the big picture.

Is that right? Because both of those statements make perfect sense to me, although it makes it sound like "transferring ownership" (good way to put it, Red Falcon) and outright stealing a game are on the same moral level, which I think is more than a little silly.


While I do know how awful my English usually is, I'm seriously amazed by how long has it taken, especially because I repeated like three times the very same idea (which actually was first exposed by crazymike and I find to be pretty obvious, on the other hand). I wonder if you people really read.

Let me clarify, though, that I never really cared much about the subject. I myself use emulators with assiduity but I also do buy my games (brand-new only, as you could read) and I've been doing it for more than 20 years now. I also keep them with me, at least everything from the last 10 years. If I really had wanted to defend emulation, I'd have talked about preservation, or about the profit the publishers are making thanks to it these days. Whatever. I just found a misplaced "tongue-in-cheek joke" and I just replied to it. Because, as I said, "it's totally stupid in my mind bringing up uncalled arguments against those who download ROMs while you're supporting second-hand markets". Nothing else, really.





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"Re(4):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 01:33:post reply

quote:
While I do know how awful my English usually is, I'm seriously amazed by how long has it taken, especially because I repeated like three times the very same idea (which actually was first exposed by crazymike and I find to be pretty obvious, on the other hand). I wonder if you people really read.

While I have indeed read and understood your argument (and Polly's and Mike's) I have always disagreed with it and still do. Can you not accept that? On the other hand, I wonder if YOU either "really read" my long post (which is indeed up twice now for your convenience!) OR the Professor's? Why don't you go back and do that? You have continuously repeated your position without ever acknowledging the other and have never presented any solid evidence supporting your argument other than "they don't make direct profit off of either incident", which I addressed directly (even drew a diagram!) And where is this side-by-side comparison of games, eh? And if you didn't care about it much, why did you argue it with such vitriol even when A.) people were trying to be polite and B.) for so long? As you said yourself, it's "pointless", so why reply? Just HAVE to get that last word in so as not to look like you've lost? And if you didn't notice, I still disagree with Crazymike and Polly, albeit neither of them are smarmy. YOU continue to seem to ignore the damage roms do as opposed to the "second hand market", and as usual avoid every issue which you don't have an argument against. As for the "profits publishers are making these days" I'VE already mentioned that, saying it's okay if the roms are licensed (like the.. what is it, virtual console?). And if people used it strictly for preservation, which as I have repeatedly mentioned (as have others) they DO NOT, I'd be a lot more okay with that, too. Hell, most of my MSX games have died as they are so old, I'd be all up for preserving them. But funny, seems most in the emu scene don't care about systems like the MSX.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Sat 14 Jul 01:52]

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"Re(5):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 01:46post reply

The English is just fine.

Oooh, here's what it looks just like to an outside viewer: Hague'd!


bonus:


FACES STRAIGHT





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"Re(6):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 01:52:post reply

quote:


FACES STRAIGHT

I find this extra amusing, considering Birdie is one of my main Zero 3 charas, ha ha. (So is Adon, interestingly)
I think Adon is doing a jaguar tooth...





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Sat 14 Jul 01:54]

Maou
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"Re(7):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 01:54post reply

Holy cow, a Birdie user? I'll never be able to handle 360 charas until I get better with a home joystick, which I don't own. Sakura forever I guess. OR MAYBE DAN





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hikarutilmitt
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"Re(6):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 04:31post reply

quote:
The English is just fine.

Oooh, here's what it looks just like to an outside viewer: Hague'd!


bonus:


FACES STRAIGHT


Or, more accurately (despite the color):
LOWRES





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"Re(7):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 04:44post reply

quote:


FACES STRAIGHT
I find this extra amusing, considering Birdie is one of my main Zero 3 charas, ha ha. (So is Adon, interestingly)
I think Adon is doing a jaguar tooth...



Maou, I suggest you get the hang of 360 characters as soon as possible. 360 characters make life worth living.

As for the pic, it looks more like Adon's doing a jumping roundhouse to me.





Er.....

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"Re(8):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 04:54post reply

quote:

As for the pic, it looks more like Adon's doing a jumping roundhouse to me.

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking it was part of the startup animation for jaguar tooth, but it's definitely the startup for a jumping roundhouse.





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"Re(8):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 05:01post reply

quote:

Maou, I suggest you get the hang of 360 characters as soon as possible. 360 characters make life worth living.
Hey IronD, I'd enjoy being able to do it (I like R.Mika's stage music too much never to go there), but I can't pull it off unless I'm jumping most of the time. Is it supposed to be particularly possible or easy on a PlayStation pad? I just don't have any luck. Maybe I need one of those Saturn-shaped controllers...





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"Re(9):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 06:34post reply

quote:

Maou, I suggest you get the hang of 360 characters as soon as possible. 360 characters make life worth living. Hey IronD, I'd enjoy being able to do it (I like R.Mika's stage music too much never to go there), but I can't pull it off unless I'm jumping most of the time. Is it supposed to be particularly possible or easy on a PlayStation pad? I just don't have any luck. Maybe I need one of those Saturn-shaped controllers...



Yeah Saturn controllers are so awesome. I had one heck of a time having to adjust to PS2 contollers. You'll just have to practice is all. If you can do 360s and 720s on a Saturn pad, then I assure you you'll be able to do them with a PS pad given time and practice. It's not easy, but it is possible and with enough practice you'll be able to do it almost as well as with a Saturn pad.

I'd say that I can pull off a 360 almost any time I want with a PS pad, but I'm still not as good with them as I was while using the Saturn pad. And I've had a couple of years of doing 360s on a PS pad at this point.





Er.....

Maou
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"Re(10):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Cali" , posted Sat 14 Jul 06:52post reply

Good to know it's not because I'm a total idiot that I couldn't pull off 360's comfortably on that thing. Didn't Capcom make a Saturn-shaped PS2 pad with their Vampire series on it recently? I guess Udon or somebody made ones with American comic art too if I remember correctly.





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"Re(2):Re(10):The Legend Will Never Die, Souul" , posted Sat 14 Jul 06:58post reply

quote:
Good to know it's not because I'm a total idiot that I couldn't pull off 360's comfortably on that thing. Didn't Capcom make a Saturn-shaped PS2 pad with their Vampire series on it recently? I guess Udon or somebody made ones with American comic art too if I remember correctly.



Oh yeah. We should both look in to those. It sure would be nice playing Alpha Collection with Saturn caliber controls. However, I don't know much about their quality, never having used one myself.

Perhaps someone who has used them could shed some light on this?





Er.....

Red Falcon
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"Re(3):Re(10):The Legend Will Never Die, Souul" , posted Sat 14 Jul 07:02post reply

quote:

Perhaps someone who has used them could shed some light on this?

I'm a stick user (and never really use pads for fighters... never have.) but I have a friend who really likes them.





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"Re(2):Re(10):The Legend Will Never Die, Souul" , posted Sat 14 Jul 07:42:post reply

quote:
I guess Udon or somebody made ones with American comic art too if I remember correctly.



The Udon ones feel very flimsy. See if one of your friends has one first before purchase so you can get a feel for it.

I am mostly a ps2 controller user as well. So far managed to pull off raging storm and similar pretzel moves, but still have a bit of trouble with 360s.





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[this message was edited by Juan on Sat 14 Jul 07:43]

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"Re(3):Re(10):The Legend Will Never Die, Souul" , posted Sat 14 Jul 08:07post reply

quote:
I guess Udon or somebody made ones with American comic art too if I remember correctly.


The Udon ones feel very flimsy. See if one of your friends has one first before purchase so you can get a feel for it.


Don't buy them, they're full of anatomical errors.





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"Re(5):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 09:46post reply

On the "Udon" controller:

I thought it was all right, but certainly not exceptional. It's a cheap, easy way to get a 6 button controller, and I found it to work much better than a normal PS pad on something like Vampire Chronicles where I need to dance around the buttons a lot but don't have to do a lot of really complicated motions. It would probably work similarly well for Zero, but for some reason, I didn't like it much for 3rd Strike (possibly because I was very used to the PS2 controller).

On the down side, I found myself frequently hitting start and select by accident. My hands are not monstrously big, so this may be problematic for other people as well.

Red Falcon:

Yay! Now I get to reply! First of all, I had no idea that bootlegging was a big issue in Japan, because I never encountered it and have never even seen hints of it. However, it's immediately obvious that second hand sales are very big over there and I had read a few articles regarding that. Given my ignorance, and lack of data, there's no way to say what's technically more damaging, but if bootlegging is still a widespread problem, then obviously it's much worse.

But there is a situation that Recap's argument is still valid in, although it's only a hypothetical one.

If you buy a game, then sell me that game, the company makes $60 (or whatever) from you and that's it. If you buy a game, then make me a copy of that game, the company makes $60 from you, and that's it.

As long as I don't make any MORE copies and the piracy stops with me, then the company makes the same profit ($60) either way.

I mean, you can agree to that, right? In terms of ROMS that's a pretty unlikely scenario, but that fits what Recap initially said without contradicting what you've said, either.

I look at what you're saying, and I either agree or don't know enough to disagree, but I still think there's been a fundamental level of misunderstanding here.





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"Re(6):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 10:06:post reply

quote:

I mean, you can agree to that, right? In terms of ROMS that's a pretty unlikely scenario, but that fits what Recap initially said without contradicting what you've said, either.

While this is technically true, it is still fundamentally flawed in my opinion, and it doesn't address any of the issues the Professor brings up (the issues of on the retailer's level, which is something that never occurred to me until after reading his post... romming would damage them the most, as it would cut in to both their sales of new AND used games.. we can't ignore their livelihoods!). However, I'll go along with it, as this is all hypothetical. Firstly, though, I think its clear that nothing of this kind was recap's intent, he meant that both scenes "as a whole" were equally as bad(and indeed, I think he tried really hard to paint second-hand sales as being far worse, especially when he mentioned he "never buys any games second hand." He also never mentioned that we were "only discussing Japan" initially and it was clearly not his intent, he was referring to the issues as a whole; you are the first to really apply conditions to it, but the more you apply the further and further you go from his argument and get more in to your own) Secondly, I think you should go and read the Professor's post for some more background on the issue in terms of Japan. I feel bad saying it, but arguing something like this really makes it seem like you just don't want this dispute to end, it's so conditional that it almost seems like a "moral quandary" from a philosophy class. Kudos to you for coming up with it, though, as I think it is the most unique situation brought up. Copying and redistributing games is illegal in and of itself (and in many places, copying games period is illegal, although I THINK you MIGHT be allowed to make "backup copies for personal use only" in the U.S... not really sure, though) and regardless, you are STILL diluting profits in a sense; if you had not made that "copy" and distributed it, they either would have had to go out and buy their own second-hand copy which would have contained an original sale, or if it's a new game, they would have bought it new. Also, as you said yourself, exchanging just a single copy is more or less a total impossibility when roms are concerned. Even if we're talking on such a small scale, it is STILL copying and erasing a potential "sale", be it a current sale (they go out and buy a new copy) or one that happened long ago (they go and purchase their own used legit copy). I don't think there was ever any miscommunication, I understood perfectly, just as I understand what you're saying now. It (his argument) was really just an attempt to legitimize roms and claim they are equally as moral (indeed, more moral) as buying second hand games, and nothing more. It also occurred to me that if he was as legit as he claimed, he wouldn't have even advocated the emulation of a game a company has currently re-released for additional profits, anyway. Please, Polly. I implore you at this point; the issue has been played to death, and to be blunt, I'm not going to be convinced. There was no miscommunication. Honestly, you are clearly thinking a lot harder on the issue than he was, as your arguments are both more eloquent AND more thought out. But piracy is piracy, no matter what kind of bizarre conditions we apply for sake of theory. I would compare it to the whole "If I steal food for my starving family, is stealing okay?" argument, but games are a luxury, not a necessity. If you don't pay, you don't play. I guess it's kind of a "black and white" way to look at it, but... I guess I'm that kind of person in this situation. One process is legal, the other is not. One is flat-out stealing, the other is not.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Sat 14 Jul 11:28]

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"Re(4):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 10:28post reply

quote:
You didn't fucking get it, but somehow it doesn't surprise me. I never talked about the "method of animation" at all, but about how the elements in cel-based animation are displayed and how it handles _scaling_, which is never digitally, even when it uses a digital medium. Since I don't think you'll be getting it yet, I'll rephrase it for you: The look of "pixelated" sprites opposes the one of cel-based animation.

Easy, wasn't it?

Yes, it was easy. Because you keep opening your mouth and confirming that you have no idea what we're talking about. Animation method's PRECISELY what we're talking about. Image quality has nothing to do with whether or not something is based on cel-animation. It's the same thing- big and hi-res, or small and pixelated. It's still cel-based. Take the Killer Instinct sprites and blow them up really huge, but they're still CG-based animation. Blow up the Clay Fighter sprites really big, but they're stop-motion based animation. You are saying that a lower resolution causes it to no longer be cel-based animation (or have the appearance of cel-based animation), which is completely incorrect. It has no effect on the "essence of cel-based animation" as you called it. Only the image quality. Two totally different things. Any comparisons or metaphors just bang right off of your forehead because you really don't care to listen (to anything anyone in this stupid thread has said). I'm not arguing anymore.

BRING ON THE SKELELELELELELELETONS





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"Re(7):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 11:59post reply

quote:

While this is technically true, it is still fundamentally flawed in my opinion, and it doesn't address any of the issues the Professor brings up



I'll just cut this because I agree, actually I agree with just about all (if not all) of your points.

However, there is still a miscommunication, because I'm not really trying to argue anything. The scenario I presented was to illustrate where the initial "you still don't get it" came from.

So, I mean...yes...you've made excellent points, but I didn't mean to create the impression that you needed to make those points to me.I'm not taking an opposing viewpoint from you, or at the very least, I'm not doing so wittingly.

That being said, I'm done. There's nothing for me to debate.





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"Re(8):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 12:04:post reply

quote:

The scenario I presented was to illustrate where the initial "you still don't get it" came from.

I understand that, but I'm just saying I did get it, I just didn't agree, ha ha. Sorry to parrot myself so many times, I guess I just feel the need to start babbling evidence to support my viewpoint every time now. To be completely honest, I probably responded with more stuff to your post more than I would have otherwise, primarily because I really just don't want recap to grasp on to what you're saying and claim that's what he meant when he clearly didn't by removing any possible legitimizing reasons.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Sat 14 Jul 12:06]

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"Re(6):The Legend Will Never Die, Souull Calii" , posted Sat 14 Jul 12:45post reply

quote:
Hague'd!



I'm so glad that term is still in use here for whenever Olivier decides to be...well, himself.





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