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DarkZero
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"Viewing Comics On A PC?" , posted Tue 11 Jan 15:22post reply

I know that a lot of people here read fan-translated manga, also known (horrifically) as "scanslations", so I know a lot of you are familiar with viewing comics on a computer. I'm trying to look up some old X-Men back issues that I can't find any trades for and I was wondering what program you're all using to view comics.

I've tried the regular Windows Image Viewer, LView, and The GIMP to view comics, but so far nothing's letting me just page through an entire directory in full screen like a normal comic book. So far the best has been The GIMP, because it's relatively easy to modify the zoom on the image and I can open a whole lot of images at the same time, but I still have to bring up each actual one, adjust the zoom on that specific image, read it, and then do the same thing for the next page. Not exactly user friendly.

Any thoughts?






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ONSLAUGHT
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"Well..." , posted Tue 11 Jan 15:26post reply

quote:
I'm trying to look up some old X-Men back issues that I can't find any trades for


Which old X-Men back issues do you want to read? I might be able to find an online store for you.





DarkZero
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"Re(1):Well..." , posted Tue 11 Jan 16:04post reply

quote:
I'm trying to look up some old X-Men back issues that I can't find any trades for

Which old X-Men back issues do you want to read? I might be able to find an online store for you.



I was reading through the trades of the issues directly after Giant-Size X-Men, as well as paging through UXN, and I felt like reading through some older issues of X-Factor, like #1-20. It also gave me an urge to look up some other X-Men stories (such as Age of Apocalypse and, ironically, Onslaught). I found more X-Men trades available at Amazon and Barnes & Noble that I expected, but not everything that I was really looking for.

If there are any stores out there that have some older trades (like from a few years ago), I might be interested, but I'm not really looking to buy back issues online. I'm not really interested in paying 200%-300% of retail for older comics when none of the money is going to anybody that actually made the comics.





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"Re(2):Well..." , posted Tue 11 Jan 16:11post reply

quote:
I'm not really interested in paying 200%-300% of retail for older comics when none of the money is going to anybody that actually made the comics.

i think it was VManOfMana who said it best --

well, it'd be a bit of a waste to copy and paste it all when a simple link would suffice
http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/bbs/messages/10138.shtml#1991





DarkZero
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"Re(3):Well..." , posted Tue 11 Jan 16:35post reply

quote:
I'm not really interested in paying 200%-300% of retail for older comics when none of the money is going to anybody that actually made the comics.
i think it was VManOfMana who said it best --

well, it'd be a bit of a waste to copy and paste it all when a simple link would suffice
http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/bbs/messages/10138.shtml#1991



I don't understand how this applies. VMan's making the argument that artists should actually be paid for their work, and specifically mentions, "Buying SonMay CDs and using fansubs as DVD substitues will not make things any better." Please tell me how buying a Son May CD and buying a second hand comic from the early '80s from some collector are different; how one is right and one is wrong. In the first case, you're spending money, but unfortunately, NONE of it is going to the artist. In the second case, you're spending money, and how much of it is going to the artist? NONE! All of your money is going to the collector who already paid their $1.50, thoroughly enjoyed it, and is now making 100% profit on it. They're not giving another $1.50 to Marvel because someone else is reading it, they're just pocketing the money. You have a physical copy of the item that you want and you've paid real money for it, but none of that money is going to the artist -- just like a bootleg DVD or a Son May CD.

I already mentioned that I paid for two trade paperbacks of really old Marvel comics. I even mentioned that I found more of those old trade paperbacks when I searched Amazon and B&N, and was satisfied with that. All I said was that I didn't want to buy second-hand comics that don't give any money to Marvel; in the absence of available trades, I would rather just download those. Maybe Marvel will make trades of the early X-Factor comics some day, but given that nothing really significant happens until a couple of years into its run, I doubt that. However, even if I read those comics, I'll probably end up buying the trade anyway. After all, I have bought Giant-Size X-Men #1 roughly FIVE TIMES already over the course of my life.

Before linking to a post, why don't you check the thread to see if it applies in some way beforehand, instead of making a knee-jerk reaction about piracy? VMan was talking about stealing from artists, not downloading out-of-print material that you can't pay the artist for.





ONSLAUGHT
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"Mmmmhh..." , posted Tue 11 Jan 18:02post reply

quote:
I'm not really interested in paying 200%-300% of retail for older comics when none of the money is going to anybody that actually made the comics.
i think it was VManOfMana who said it best --

well, it'd be a bit of a waste to copy and paste it all when a simple link would suffice
http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/bbs/messages/10138.shtml#1991


I don't understand how this applies. VMan's making the argument that artists should actually be paid for their work, and specifically mentions, "Buying SonMay CDs and using fansubs as DVD substitues will not make things any better." Please tell me how buying a Son May CD and buying a second hand comic from the early '80s from some collector are different; how one is right and one is wrong. In the first case, you're spending money, but unfortunately, NONE of it is going to the artist. In the second case, you're spending money, and how much of it is going to the artist? NONE! All of your money is going to the collector who already paid their $1.50, thoroughly enjoyed it, and is now making 100% profit on it. They're not giving another $1.50 to Marvel because someone else is reading it, they're just pocketing the money. You have a physical copy of the item that you want and you've paid real money for it, but none of that money is going to the artist -- just like a bootleg DVD or a Son May CD.

I already mentioned that I paid for two trade paperbacks of really old Marvel comics. I even mentioned that I found more of those old trade paperbacks when I searched Amazon and B&N, and was satisfied with that. All I said was that I didn't want to buy second-hand comics that don't give any money to Marvel; in the absence of available trades, I would rather just download those. Maybe Marvel will make trades of the early X-Factor comics some day, but given that nothing really significant happens until a couple of years into its run, I doubt that. However, even if I read those comics, I'll probably end up buying the trade anyway. After all, I have bought Giant-Size X-Men #1 roughly FIVE TIMES already over the course of my life.

Before linking to a post, why don't you check the thread to see if it applies in some way beforehand, instead of making a knee-jerk reaction about piracy? VMan was talking about stealing from artists, not downloading out-of-print material that you can't pay the artist for.


Haha, way to go, you totally owned this stupid JJJ guy! It's about time dammit!
Just say "Fuck you JJJ, who are you to interfere with my justified pirating ways?" That will show him not to mess with an internet thug.





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"Re(4):Well..." , posted Tue 11 Jan 18:38post reply

You should try ACDsee as it supports almost every kind of photo file and can show the files sequentially. I think the latest version can even show you the files even if they are compressed in .zip format. Unfortunately, it's shareware, so you'll have to pay for it eventually (or not, there are some nice trial patches out there, but it's up to you...)

The other option is CDisplay, the standard viewer for .cbr and .cbz archives. It's really easy to use and although its page scrolling it's a bit weird and it hasn't as many features as ACDsee, it's completely free, so this option won't upset the "copyright avengers" in this forum...





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"Re: SonMay" , posted Tue 11 Jan 19:04:post reply

The guy I bought Japanese CDs from said that SonMay buys permission to reprint the CDs, so they aren't pirated.
Do you disbelieve?

If you ask about a program to view comics on alt binaries pictures comics or some such place, they can tell you. But you have to ask like 3 times. That's how I found one. I don't remember what it is though after not using it for more than a year.

I use irfanview, it's like 98% of ACDSee. I dun think either has a side by side page mode. Even in the program designed for looking at comics, you still had to zoom often ro read the tiny text and stuff.

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[this message was edited by Lupin on Tue 11 Jan 19:21]

DarkZero
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"Re(1):Re: SonMay" , posted Tue 11 Jan 20:03post reply

quote:

I use irfanview, it's like 98% of ACDSee. I dun think either has a side by side page mode. Even in the program designed for looking at comics, you still had to zoom often ro read the tiny text and stuff.


I think I may have been a bit too vague about what I was looking for. I'm not looking for side-by-side view or anything fancy like that. I'm just looking to set a default zoom level and open an entire directory at a time. For instance, I downloaded the first two (only two?) issues of Densha De D* from 4chan. I was able to open the entire directory in The GIMP, but only in non-maximized windows and at the default 100% zoom. So to view every page, I had to bring each page up, maximize it, reset the zoom to 50%, read it, and then repeat the process. If I could just set zoom to 50% in a program's preferences, open up the entire directory at once, and then just press a button to switch between images, that would be a whole lot easier. Then again, The GIMP may be able to do this, but there are so many settings, I could just be missing it. (As I'm playing with it right now, I've found a way to make it a little easier, but only with 5 or so pages at a time. ALT+TAB jumbles the images, so I have to dig around for the right page number every time I switch pages.)

* I honestly have no idea if I "pirated" this or not. My understanding is that it's a very rare doujin, since it took the 4channers forever just to find two issues. I honestly know next-to-nothing about it and Google searches for it have been less than helpful.

quote:
You may be too fervent about defending theft.


I may be too fervent about it, I'll give you that, but I honestly just don't understand the difference. When something's out of print, you can either borrow it, buy it used from some guy on eBay, or download it. None of them entail giving any money to the people that actually deserve to be paid for it, and no one cares if you pick either one of the first two, but that last option lets people get very self-righteous on the internet. I guess that, much like Son May CDs, it feels good to give your money away in exchange for something, even if it doesn't go to the right person. That's the only logic I can find behind it.

And yes, Son May CDs are bootlegs. SM = Son May. I never really mind bootlegs that much, even though I have no interest in buying them, but Son May CDs do kind of bother me. Their presence drowns out the real stuff so that whenever someone tries to sell anime CDs in a retail store, they inevitably end up selling Son May CDs, either because they're cheap or, more often, they just don't know any better. They're like the types of weeds that are very nice to look at. Yes, they're nice, but they're killing the real stuff.





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"Re(2):Re: SonMay" , posted Tue 11 Jan 21:39:post reply

quote:

I think I may have been a bit too vague about what I was looking for. I'm not looking for side-by-side view or anything fancy like that. I'm just looking to set a default zoom level and open an entire directory at a time. For instance, I downloaded the first two (only two?) issues of Densha De D* from 4chan. I was able to open the entire directory in The GIMP, but only in non-maximized windows and at the default 100% zoom. So to view every page, I had to bring each page up, maximize it, reset the zoom to 50%, read it, and then repeat the process. If I could just set zoom to 50% in a program's preferences, open up the entire directory at once, and then just press a button to switch between images, that would be a whole lot easier. Then again, The GIMP may be able to do this, but there are so many settings, I could just be missing it. (As I'm playing with it right now, I've found a way to make it a little easier, but only with 5 or so pages at a time. ALT+TAB jumbles the images, so I have to dig around for the right page number every time I switch pages.)

* I honestly have no idea if I "pirated" this or not. My understanding is that it's a very rare doujin, since it took the 4channers forever just to find two issues. I honestly know next-to-nothing about it and Google searches for it have been less than helpful.
In like irfanview you can set it to "fit images to window" so if you can get the window to 50% of the image size, and the files are all the same size, then you can go through them with the same zoom. But only 1 at a time.
You can also look at the directory such that it displays a 'thumbnail' of each picture, many at a time.


quote:
You may be too fervent about defending theft.

I may be too fervent about it, I'll give you that, but I honestly just don't understand the difference. When something's out of print, you can either borrow it, buy it used from some guy on eBay, or download it. None of them entail giving any money to the people that actually deserve to be paid for it, and no one cares if you pick either one of the first two, but that last option lets people get very self-righteous on the internet. I guess that, much like Son May CDs, it feels good to give your money away in exchange for something, even if it doesn't go to the right person. That's the only logic I can find behind it.
2nd hand market is not illegitimate. Someone can buy the product with the intent of reselling it after they're done. The manufacturer can know this too, that her products can be resold.
Many comic stores buy products from publishers, and then resell them to customers.

quote:

And yes, Son May CDs are bootlegs. SM = Son May. I never really mind bootlegs that much, even though I have no interest in buying them, but Son May CDs do kind of bother me. Their presence drowns out the real stuff so that whenever someone tries to sell anime CDs in a retail store, they inevitably end up selling Son May CDs, either because they're cheap or, more often, they just don't know any better. They're like the types of weeds that are very nice to look at. Yes, they're nice, but they're killing the real stuff.

Huh? You don't believe?





[this message was edited by Lupin on Tue 11 Jan 21:56]

CharlesProphony
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"Re(3):Re: SonMay" , posted Thu 13 Jan 09:00post reply

a good program to read comics is the comicdisplay





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"Re(3):Re: SonMay" , posted Thu 13 Jan 10:45post reply

quote:
2nd hand market is not illegitimate. Someone can buy the product with the intent of reselling it after they're done. The manufacturer can know this too, that her products can be resold.
Many comic stores buy products from publishers, and then resell them to customers.

His point is that whether you buy a comic secondhand or download it off the internet, no money is being given to the original company/ artists/ whoever responsible for the work, so it doesn't really matter if you're giving money to the little collector guy at a garage sale or just getting a copy online. Personally, I don't really have a problem with people DL-ing stuff that's way, way, way out of circulation... it's not like they'd really be able to find it in a store anywhere.

Anyway... is there some way you can drop them all into a PDF or something? I think I've seen an Adobe Acrobat file that someone had put a comic in page to page... you should be able to scroll through at a set zoom level.





VManOfMana
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"Re(1):Re: SonMay" , posted Thu 13 Jan 14:31post reply

quote:
The guy I bought Japanese CDs from said that SonMay buys permission to reprint the CDs, so they aren't pirated.
Do you disbelieve?



Yes. It is very well known that SonMay CDs (as well as Ever Anime) are pirated CDs. They don't pay a single penny on licenses to the original recording companies.

That person just lied to you. Simple as that.





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VManOfMana
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"Re(4):Well..." , posted Thu 13 Jan 15:41:post reply

Well, since we are talking about what I say... =)

DarkZero's point is interesting. The second hand market probably does not benefit the artists directly, but it can help indirectly by helping the environment where the artists "feed on".

For example, I like anime laserdiscs. A lot. laserdics are now discontinued, so more likely than what you will have is in the secondhand or "let's get rid of inventory" market. It is unlikely that companies and artists will make much profit of it anymore, but stores that fill the niche, like Jungle, can use the income coming from the niche to help their survival, which means another store where people can buy stuff that the artists can get their income from.

Of course, it really has to do with what you pay for what you get. I am not going to pay more than $30 for a single laserdisc (the most I have payed is $20), and I am not going to pay for a laserdisc that is not in good condition. And if I can good get a good deal for a full set, even better.

But there are cases where things can get expensive. I had to pay 9200 yen for the Spring DX Ciel figure, I paid 5000-6000 yen for the original Oxide artbook, and I have seen Tsukibako (Tsukihime + Plus Disc + Kagetsu Tohya bundled together) for at least 15000 yen. Do I think they are worth it? It depends. The Ciel figure is impossible to find right now, and I got it becasue I am a completist. I think the Oxide book was OK considering it is hard to find, and IMO print books look a lot nicer than scans. And since I really like Hyung Tae-Kim's work, I went for it (and again, the printed art looks alot nicer than hi-resolution scans I have seen). Tsukibako I do think it is exaggerated, and I can see why people prefer to just download it (I was lucky to find it on Himeya before it ran out). However, considerig how *rare* it is to find anything Tsukihime nowadays I can see why the price can go up that much. They reaached the prize of collector items.

In the case of Tsukihime, what really irritates me is people going into Tsukihime fandom boards and ask where to download the game, when it is explicitily stated that the board is not the place to discuss that. It is that "I don't care" attited that really gets me (going back to my original post). I mean, not only they don't want to pay for it, but they want others to spoonfed it on them?





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[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Thu 13 Jan 15:46]

Juke Joint Jezebel
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"Re(5):Well..." , posted Thu 13 Jan 17:42post reply

quote:
lots and lots of text i'll never read

class, you guys had an excellent start with your papers!

but you'll have to give me another week until i can return them to you, just so i can doublecheck your sources and make sure everything's in the right place

in the meantime, go online at home, or in the library, and read this article. be ready to discuss it next week
Link Here
naturally, Links go Here when appropriate

i guess that's it for today. we'll meet again on Tuesday, at normal time. if you guys have any questions about your midterms, i'll be in my office from three to seven today





DarkZero
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"Re(4):Re: SonMay" , posted Thu 13 Jan 17:53:post reply

quote:
a good program to read comics is the comicdisplay



Thank you. I haven't gotten to try this program yet, but it answered a very important question for me, namely why so many comic torrents are entirely in the mysterious ".CBR" format. Now I understand that it is CDisplay's format, and if someone is willing to put several hundred comics into that format, I'm betting it's probably worth it.

quote:
DarkZero's point is interesting. The second hand market probably does not benefit the artists directly, but it can help indirectly by helping the environment where the artists "feed on".

For example, I like anime laserdiscs. A lot. laserdics are now discontinued, so more likely than what you will have is in the secondhand or "let's get rid of inventory" market. It is unlikely that companies and artists will make much profit of it anymore, but stores that fill the niche, like Jungle, can use the income coming from the niche to help their survival, which means another store where people can buy stuff that the artists can get their income from.


I agree with most of this, but don't you find it more of a preference, rather than a moral decision? Yes, it's a good thing to support your local shops. If my local comic shops actually had this stuff, I'd probably buy it just for the sake of supporting an actual, physical comic shop. However, almost all of this stuff is at least a decade old and spans multiple comics, so the chances of getting it from the sort of dealer that I'd like to support are almost indistinguishable from zero. And while supporting them would be nice, I don't feel that deciding not to support them would be wrong. When you toss some coins in the charity can at the local Quickie-Mart, you're doing something good, but when you pass by the can without tossing anything in, you're not a thieving bastard who should be ashamed of himself. It's a preference, not a moral decision.

quote:
Anyway... is there some way you can drop them all into a PDF or something? I think I've seen an Adobe Acrobat file that someone had put a comic in page to page... you should be able to scroll through at a set zoom level.


Looks like CDisplay might be the way to go, because that's the format that most scanned comics are in. That was a damn good suggestion, though. Thanks.





[this message was edited by DarkZero on Thu 13 Jan 18:10]

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"Re(5):Re: SonMay Cry 2" , posted Thu 13 Jan 17:57post reply

quote:
Looks like CDisplay might be the way to go, because that's the format that most scanned comics are in. That was a damn good suggestion, though. Thanks.

No problem. At least it's a fall-back if you can't get CDisplay to work or something.





DarkZero
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"Re(6):Re: SonMay Cry 2" , posted Thu 13 Jan 18:09post reply

Even though JJJ ignores any reply, I figured I might as well respond, just because I found part of the article interesting. Here's the only part that applies to this discussion:

quote:
COMIC FAN #7: I'm only downloading it because it's not available to buy, or is outside of my budget.

In the past year or so, there have been several sites offering scanned versions of the out-of-print Miracleman issues and early issues of Action Comics for the public. While these issues are currently out-of-print (or offered in collections with relatively high price points) and in high demand, it is still the prerogative of the copyright owners of said books on what they wish to do with them. There are a myriad of reasons why companies havenít capitalized on the demand for certain comics. For example, Miracleman is being held up by a court battle to decide who actually owns the rights. In other cases it may be lack of upfront capital to print the books, or a perception on the publisherís part that there isnít enough interest to warrant further printings. Though, with licensing deals Marvel has pursued in the past year with Topics Entertainment and early issues from their library, CD rom collections of long out of print comics may be closer on the horizon than they were previously.


To me, this seems like kind of a strange argument, for one thing because it's a fantastic argument against fansubs.

"It MIGHT be available for purchase SOME DAY, so you shouldn't download it. And let's ignore the idea of someone buying the product once it's made available, because A) no one ever buys something they've already watched, which is why comic reprints, DVD sets of TV shows and movies, and music CDs that have been played in their entirety on radio stations never sell, and B) it isn't an extremely, extremely common thing in anime fandom for someone to download a show, then buy the pretty DVD set for $100+."

And the idea of "is still the prerogative of the copyright owners of said books on what they wish to do with them" seems like BS to me. They've already released these comics to the public, and they're not trying to buy up every second hand copy and destroy them, so clearly they don't have a problem with people reading it. If it were economically feasible to rerelease a set of comics like X-Factor #1-20 (which is among hundreds of X-Men comics that aren't part of a set), they would do it in a heartbeat. Sadly, only a handful of geeks would actually buy an old comic where nothing important happens, so it remains obscure and unsold.

These would be a great arguments for why comics that have reprints on the shelves should not be downloaded, but a pretty pathetic argument for why all downloads of any old comic are inherently wrong.