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Iggy
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"Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Sun 28 Mar 22:18post reply

I just had all of my 20 nails painted in all sorts of frightening colours by a revenging jilted mistress. Don't ask.

As a side effect, though, it made me want to give Ash a try. How does he play? The idea of rushdown/combo character doesn't seem to mix well with the Guile moveset, and the Orochi Shermie move they added in XII doesn't match either... So, how should you play him in XI, and and XII ?






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Toxico
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"Re(1):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Mon 29 Mar 02:15post reply

quote:

How does he play? The idea of rushdown/combo character doesn't seem to mix well with the Guile moveset, and the Orochi Shermie move they added in XII doesn't match either...



Well, if you are using Guile as your judging basis, you'll end up with very strong differences... for example, we have all joked on how Guile can spent 90 of the 99 seconds of the round crouching in the corner (the first 9 seconds where needed to get there). In time you'll realize that Ash can't do that, while he does have strong defensive special moves that you can use to trigger the (homo)sexual sensitivity of the enemy and push him away; his normals are not 'good' enough to keep the enemy away (well, they are good, but they are not so good, that you'll need to enter another time zone to evade that medium kick). That usually means that you have to play Ash in two main situations; one is when you are very far away and charging, and the other is when you are close (charging or not).

I'll immortalize you new found flamboyance with an extensive post.

* I think that this sense of change of distance is what makes Ash even remotely worthwhile.

General stuff that more or less apply to every game :

Things to Do when far away.

- Well, the fireballs (duh!). The fireballs are somewhat slow, so you can play that "chase the sonic boom" theme from the old days (which is mainly where the command / un-escapable XII throw comes in). Floreal is also good to chase after the fire ball if the ventose actually arrives earlier than you. You can also chase fireballs with a long / short jump, which allows you to charge and have air to air options. Remember that having commands and non charge DMs add a lot to your "not crouching" game.

A detail about Fireballs, for example if you are away (near full screen) and throw a weak ventose, if the enemy jumps they can't punish you, but if you can't do anything but a DM to protect yourself (which isn't really good) or jump preemptively to fight it out (sometimes this is not possible), since you usually don't have enough time to charge the following move... so in that case you are better running away (rolls, good for charging too). This is where the strong ventose comes into play, since the move is slower to come out, it also means that you have the following already charged; so actually a dull fireball -> uppercut does works (take that Guile), or you can give the impression of doing fireball -> fireball which is good (you need to wait for the first ventose to properly disappear, which is hard to eye confirm at first).

- Side note : Jumping. Jumping is very strong with Ash, first is more or less quick; and second you have a lot of moves. You have quick air to air moves (like B or CD) and have strong "in angle" moves (like the D or to a lesser extent the A). So moving around while jumping isn't that odd, specially since kof is usually not sturdy enough that your EVERY JUMP will get stuffed by the same uppercut every situation, always all the time. It also allows you to charge

- Approaching the enemy. Remember than in kof, you can Run while charging down, so that is always a plus for you. If you run charging df, you can continue running for as long as you old the direction. If you charge holding db you'll stop in the next couple of steps (there is a delay between the actual stick press and the running animation ending, this is better seen in XII). You can do run -> charge down back -> weak attacks -> fireball with fairly short charge time.

More specific game stuff :

In XI, The Messidor is a very quick overhead that's hard to see, and you can change characters from it so it actually gives you a "high / low" visage.

In XI the B nivose recovers incredibly fast (fast enough for an untrained enemy to miss the possibility of punishing it after blocking it easily), however lacks priority. The D nivose is the opposite, where it has extremely good priority, but it leaves you more open and willing than people that I'm to polite to name.

In XI Thermidor is mainly used from afar and you need to chase after it, and it's likely to get rolled or jumped (however that ensures that you will hit the enemy after the jump or the roll with good instincts). You can also use the move in some combos and super cancels (the easiest one being Vendemarie -> Thermidor).

In XI his Sans culotte juggle is actually quite intuitive and easy to learn. First you need to do B nivoses, and when you see that the enemy is close to the ground do the weak nivose, and cancel it with a Prairial and repeat the process. I do suggest to do the nivose by charging it, that way if the special effects runs out while you are juggling, you'll get the normal nivose instead of juming B that will lead to punishment. There are A LOT of set ups for the juggle, like corner vendemarie -> whiffed CD -> leader. Short jump without attacking to feint a vendemarie, but do the leader instead. Counter jumping corner CD into whiffed crouching B into leader. Chased super canceled Thermidor into a whiffed attack and the leader and the like.
Since the move is very deep in it's usage and set ups, but it's actually quite fun to apply; I don't suggest to choose Ash as the leader unless you want to stick around with him for a while, or are both players just playing around (in hot yellow tight sweat shirts).

In XII, successful throw to fully charged CD is evil, just like we all are; even in the deepest parts of our Bamby loving hearths.

In XII you can do fwd + C to Floreal, which I like just as much as a pony tail brown / red hair loose socks square skirt school girl, and I'm currently praying that they have kept that feature in XIII.

In XII the Genie isn't used at all like Shermie's rendition of the move. Shermie produces a huge bolt of lighting which is hard to approach and evade (think of it as a 'pro french kiss'). Ash rendition of the move lasts much longer, but it's quite small and the enemy won't be threatened by it so will try to pass over / over power it (kinda like 'your granma's kiss'). Ash version is more or less preemptive, you need it to land right in front or right behind the enemy, and then you need to do something else. You typically can use it safely when the enemy can't move (knocked down) or when the enemy absolutely refuses to come forward.







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"Re(2):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Mon 29 Mar 15:03post reply

Can't add much, but I'll mention a few things about 12...

quote:

In XII the Genie isn't used at all like Shermie's rendition of the move. Shermie produces a huge bolt of lighting which is hard to approach and evade (think of it as a 'pro french kiss'). Ash rendition of the move lasts much longer, but it's quite small and the enemy won't be threatened by it so will try to pass over / over power it (kinda like 'your granma's kiss'). Ash version is more or less preemptive, you need it to land right in front or right behind the enemy, and then you need to do something else. You typically can use it safely when the enemy can't move (knocked down) or when the enemy absolutely refuses to come forward.



Against non-cowardly opponents, your best bet is to do genie right after a CD or low D. If it's a counter hit low D, then they can't safe fall and they're condemned to to blocking the genie as they get up. Do with that as you will.

Ash has the odd ability to cancel from his down D, into either of his command moves, or a special if you're more confident. Perhaps my friends are slow-witted, but they never could get used to this.

Also, Thermidor has awful startup. If your opponent has the ability to move, they can hit you. There's no reason to use it when Ash has two other perfectly useful supers, but if you're like me and refuse to believe that it's useless, despite all evidence indicating otherwise, I find that a well placed CD and/or a genie "shield" might allow you to get it off, for all the good it'll do you.





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"Re(1):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Mon 29 Mar 17:06post reply

In 3S I can lock down my opponent in the corner with Remy. I'm not as familiar with Ash's normals but I when I rarely would play KOF and use him I would just rush in after throwing his sonic boom. Maybe Remy has more options? I mix his game with throws, combo setups, overheads. But a lot of my Remy strategy revolved around stopping my opponents offense with pokes.





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"Re(2):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Thu 8 Apr 05:31:post reply

^^ It's easy to corner the enemy in KoF, regardless o who you use (and hard to do so depending on who you are facing in 3rdS, har har), it's probably "you" being more used to one game than to the other.


I demand a gameplay report from the one who asked these Nail arts related questions, as well as comments on how Ash & Elisabeth fail as French characters, and that's embarrassing since Shermie succeeded in 97'. Simply, we want to know.

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"Re(3):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Thu 8 Apr 23:38post reply

quote:
... as well as comments on how Ash & Elisabeth fail as French characters, and that's embarrassing since Shermie succeeded in 97'. Simply, we want to know.



Wait..Shermie is french? oh my god





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"Re(3):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Fri 9 Apr 02:49post reply

quote:
I demand a gameplay report from the one who asked these Nail arts related questions

I have absolutely no idea who would be that person, but thanks for all the in-depth post! Unfortunately, and I'm ashamed of it, I couldn't try anything. Lately, I'm so tired the only game I can play is Romancing SaGa2, because the game just plays by itself and I just have to be present in the room to make that happen. Have I mentioned here how the game is still the best video game in the entire history of termites? 18 years later, Valkyria Chronicles and FF13 still implement new ideas from that game.

I just hope my brain will unfreeze before SSF4 or KOF13 are released.

quote:
as well as comments on how Ash & Elisabeth fail as French characters, and that's embarrassing since Shermie succeeded in 97'.

The problem is that neither of them is really French, really. First, Ash doesn't look anything else than a fantasy Japanese character. The nail painting might pass if he had been from the east of London... but not with these hairdo, these clothes, these shoes... Eh.
Elisabeth's failure is in her family name: "torche" means "torch", but also "to wipe your ass". Over.
And Shermie (Michèle in reverse) isn't really French either. Her proportions, her clothes and her setting are all wrong (they've never seen a French fashion designer, have they?).
BUT, she's a fantastic character. She's Bayonetta 0.1. She's crazy fun, and fun to use, whatever her version, so I'm very happy they made her French instead of New-Yorker, for example..
quote:
Simply, we want to know.

Are you satisfied, or do you want MORE?





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"Re(4):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Fri 9 Apr 03:59:post reply

quote:

Are you satisfied, or do you want MORE?




It's that question kinda like.... ............................

Then no.







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[this message was edited by Toxico on Fri 9 Apr 04:00]

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"Re(4):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Fri 9 Apr 04:25post reply

quote:
The problem is that neither of them is really French, really. First, Ash doesn't look anything else than a fantasy Japanese character. The nail painting might pass if he had been from the east of London... but not with these hairdo, these clothes, these shoes... Eh.
Elisabeth's failure is in her family name: "torche" means "torch", but also "to wipe your ass". Over.
And Shermie (Michèle in reverse) isn't really French either. Her proportions, her clothes and her setting are all wrong (they've never seen a French fashion designer, have they?).
BUT, she's a fantastic character. She's Bayonetta 0.1. She's crazy fun, and fun to use, whatever her version, so I'm very happy they made her French instead of New-Yorker, for example..
I always thought it was plenty funny that despite the implicit variety in ethnic backgrounds and country of origins (at least at first), EVERYONE SPOKE EITHER ENGLISH OR JAPANESE, and I can't think of an exception in KOF

Like, Kim is from Korea, but doesn't speak a lick of Korean, and I doubt Xiangfei has said anything in Chinese (unless they went the simple route and had her say "Xiexie" at some point as a cheap fix)

Pretty trivial, but it always made me wonder if every character studied the same language so there wouldn't be some kind of language barrier for the sake of focusing on developing the oh-so-creative storyline of KOF

However, sometimes I imagine conversations taking place where someone like Kyo makes some kooky insults in the Ikari team's direction, and assuming they don't really have a grasp of Japanese, Ralf responds "WHAT THE FUCK DID HE SAY TO ME"





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"Re(5):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Fri 9 Apr 05:30post reply

quote:

I always thought it was plenty funny that despite the implicit variety in ethnic backgrounds and country of origins (at least at first), EVERYONE SPOKE EITHER ENGLISH OR JAPANESE, and I can't think of an exception in KOF

Like, Kim is from Korea, but doesn't speak a lick of Korean, and I doubt Xiangfei has said anything in Chinese (unless they went the simple route and had her say "Xiexie" at some point as a cheap fix)

Pretty trivial, but it always made me wonder if every character studied the same language so there wouldn't be some kind of language barrier for the sake of focusing on developing the oh-so-creative storyline of KOF

However, sometimes I imagine conversations taking place where someone like Kyo makes some kooky insults in the Ikari team's direction, and assuming they don't really have a grasp of Japanese, Ralf responds "WHAT THE FUCK DID HE SAY TO ME"



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"Re(6):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Fri 9 Apr 07:02post reply

...Kind of like how Blanka grunts and roars and people in SFA3 still understand him.

The only character in SF who this whole language thing ever made sense for was Chun Li. Even though everything she says is heavily JP-accented, she nevertheless has at least voice quip in English, Japanese, and Mandarin in 3S. It might be a really, really small thing, but it was a detail that made sense considering her Interpol background that the story always tries to make some big deal out of.

I'm not even sure if anything is lost to the players, because I'm sure plenty don't understand a word of the non-English speech that happens. And voice actor quality or not, I know that hearing oddly-translated lines (Fei Long's I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOST! in SF4...) that I can actually understand leaves me with a worse impression than stuff that I can't understand but "sounds about right".

Well, that and I guess most of the characters can just be assumed to know English. Maybe Ryu knows all languages because of his travels around the globe (even though he communicates with his fists, like a real man).





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"Re(7):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Fri 9 Apr 07:22post reply

What about trilingual Zangief?

And the kangaroo/tree conversations in Tekken 5 wins it all. Too bad that was thrown out of the window in 6.





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"Re(8):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Fri 9 Apr 08:36post reply

quote:
What about trilingual Zangief?

And the kangaroo/tree conversations in Tekken 5 wins it all. Too bad that was thrown out of the window in 6.



Actually Kim does speak some Korean. His says Nerichagi during his forward B...which means axe kick in Korean.





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"Re(5):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Fri 9 Apr 10:01:post reply

quote:
However, sometimes I imagine conversations taking place where someone like Kyo makes some kooky insults in the Ikari team's direction, and assuming they don't really have a grasp of Japanese, Ralf responds "WHAT THE FUCK DID HE SAY TO ME"

Heheheheheh. Idea of the week. The next step is for you to watch legendarily bad 1-to-1-scale-giant-mech-movie Gunhed, which features characters yelling at each other in English, Japanese, and Chinese, with each still understanding the other.

It is an odd thing, but then, the odds of getting good actors in each language are too low to make we want to see it done "right"...Namco did it with Tekken and it was always pretty awful. Like Spoon says, and like Daigo says in Justice Gakuen, 拳で語らってみろ! Talk this over with our fists!





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[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 9 Apr 10:03]

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"Re(8):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Fri 9 Apr 11:27:post reply

quote:

And the kangaroo/tree conversations in Tekken 5 wins it all. Too bad that was thrown out of the window in 6.



Hold your horses, monsieur! In scenario campaign mode in Tekken 6 there is a bunch of soundless conversations between the character you pic and Alisa. Also your character disses the boss of the stage. While it is textless, I have to say that there is really a gold mine in there, things like....

For instance, when picking Dragunov we have that he absolutely refuses to speak anything, but Alisa refuses to believe that's possible and keeps the whole game trying to get an answer from him. We even get to the point where Alisa tries to do ventriloquism so that Drag would speak. Oh, and in the few stages that he does speak, she freaks out completely due to that fact.

Of course there is a bunch of wtf things against the bear. Oh, and the bear or kangaroo stages are filled with dancing, rolling, aggressive animals.



..... In topic.

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[this message was edited by Toxico on Fri 9 Apr 11:46]

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"Re(9):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Fri 9 Apr 21:12post reply

I'd just like to point out that while all SNK characters that are supposed to be french are failures, Pielle from Breakers surely delivers. That is all.





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"Re(10):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Sun 11 Apr 05:28post reply

quote:
I'd just like to point out that while all SNK characters that are supposed to be french are failures, Pielle from Breakers surely delivers. That is all.


King?





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"Re(2):Re(10):Ash Crimson Gameplay" , posted Tue 13 Apr 23:50post reply

quote:

King?



King failed to make her team French in KOF'94. That says it all.

The only convincing French characters I know of were in Arm Joe. Totally nailed the attitude and realistic physics of local Parisians. Actually, I am pretty serious here. They feel French in a way that Ash and Remy will never understand. Except Ponpon (the Bunny), but I believe the character is supposed to be Japanese/English, so that makes sense.

Also, the character selection announcer is sexy as hell.





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