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| Maese 575th Post
 
New Red Carpet Member
 
    
    
|  "Re(1):Mass Effect 2" , posted Tue 2 Mar 18:57
quote:
ME2
It saddens me that nobody else is posting in this thread, because ME2 is truly one of the best games I've played this decade, improves almost everything from the first and is enjoyable from beginning to end with lots of replay value and amazing production values.
But you already know that FPS and mainstream gaming discussions do not belong here... There are plenty of other places to talk about such games, but not the Cafe. It does not fit the clientele.
A bunch of elitist pricks? Delusional geeks who refuse to submit to the tide of time? Maybe we are both. The thing is that people here have quite different tastes, both in a good and in a not so good sense. In fact, that's why I appreciate this board so much. If I feel like talking about mainstream stuff I can go wherever I want, there's plenty of sites and boards to do so. But when I'd rather avoid all that blockbuster crap and just enjoy some obscure, underground gaming talk (which happens very often to me), I know the Cafe is pretty much my only shelter.
No offense intended, I'm not lecturing you or anything. Of course you're free to comment whatever subject you want. It´s just that I have too much spare time at work and it struck me as weird to see these games discussed in the Cafe.
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| Pollyanna 2869th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
  
| "Re(2):Mass Effect 2" , posted Tue 2 Mar 20:11
The multitude of ugly women and super sci-fi turned me away from Mass Effect (2), but the game has received so many raves that I decided it would be worth a rent at least. Last time I tried, it was checked out, but I ended up getting Bioshock 2 instead, which proved that I can have fun with a FPS after all.
quote:
But you already know that FPS and mainstream gaming discussions do not belong here... There are plenty of other places to talk about such games, but not the Cafe. It does not fit the clientele.
I would've agreed with this a few years ago, but I'm not sure how to characterize the board here anymore. I think I said "disenchanted gamers" at one point? "Homosexual" might have crept its way in there.
I came here to talk to people who were playing games than no one else was. These days, I seem to end up talking to myself a lot, even on titles that I consider "big" releases. A lot of people tend to either wait for the English version (if one ever comes) or not bother. I think the only poster who plays like...every game I play is Zepy.
I don't mean that like "nobody plays as many games as me", just "not many people play the same games as me at the same time."
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| karasu99 301th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(6):Mass Effect 2" , posted Thu 4 Mar 03:24
quote:
backlogs.
Oh, you are definitely not the only one. While I have improved from a few years ago, I still maintain a stupid amount of games that are 'in the queue', which would be great if I didn't constantly fill it with new game that jump the queue.
quote:
cafe members.
The patrons of the cafe are a unique blend of passionate about games (often obscure ones) and milder, more sophisticated temperaments that is rarely paired with that level of passion. As such I never have that feeling of 'you're wrong because you feel this way or that about that game' that I have had at other boards. Everyone has pleasant, fun discourse, and great civility that is not found often elsewhere, Internet or otherwise.
So, even though I sometimes disagree with someone's taste, I still think I can discuss it with them.
While my hermetic lifestyle begs me not to say so, I often think it would be interesting to meet a member or two here and there, but it might wash away the Great Illusion that I have of the cafe's mildness.
As such:
quote:
I came here to talk to people who were playing games than no one else was. These days, I seem to end up talking to myself a lot, even on titles that I consider "big" releases. A lot of people tend to either wait for the English version (if one ever comes) or not bother. I think the only poster who plays like...every game I play is Zepy.
I often buy Japan-only releases (I'm playing Classic Dungeon on the PSP right now), but many times I won't buy a release if an English version is on its way since the cost is so much higher for the JP version, and since my Japanese is pitiful and weak. My suspicion is that this is the case for other here as well, although I come across many more import players here than elsewhere. Strangely enough, my import buying has declined somewhat over the last decade, but then again more games that would have been JP-only a decade ago are now being brought over eventually.
Out of curiosity, what does everyone else have to say regarding their import buying habits?
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| Burning Ranger 1644th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(2):frontier cafe" , posted Fri 5 Mar 01:53:
Backlog problem here too, spanning generations. I still have never played a Castlevania game...Can you believe it? What does that say about me?!? And yeah, I do read more about gaming in general than actually playing, but that's really because, so much stuff competes for my time (work, life, movies, etc etc).
As for questions about what the Cafe "is" -- It's hard to tell. We're not really big into the mainstream (or, we don't talk about how we PWN N00BZ in HALO MODERN WARFARE LOLOLOL KTHX BAI). Nor are we super dedicated like Shoryuken or any number of JRPG fanboys. We're also not rabid PC-only fans, or TG16 purists. (Though, at one time, I used to be a Sega Saturn/Dreamcast purist, but I've matured a little since then).
We're somewhere in the middle, but not quite mainstream yet not quite fanboy.
Gaming Renaissance men (and women)? Maybe.
So much to do so little time...
[this message was edited by Burning Ranger on Fri 5 Mar 01:57] |
| Toxico 4880th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
|  "Re(3):frontier cafe" , posted Fri 5 Mar 02:22
quote:
Backlog problem here too, spanning generations. I still have never played a Castlevania game...Can you believe it?
This is quite believable now days.
It's quite ventured to say "what we are", since we are mainly not a "new" community with a clear objective; but instead we are an old community who had a clear objective, but has expanded freely and diversely in both people and side activities. The fact that this was "the" gaming news site (not(?)) long ago brought many of us here. Also, since the community literally feeds on itself, it's quite likely that the people that frequent this place will not go away by natural means (Yes, even you Brandon, I KNOW YOU ARE READING THIS!).
Ha ha, I just recalled that washed up at this place using altavista, looking for dunno what pics, and I stumbled on a "recently published" article about the Rurouni Kenshin manga ending... Back then I was young, and had 'barely' heard of the mmcafe as a news site, and had 'barely' just cleared Final Fantasy VI 20 times or so.
To make long story short, I would say that we are simply a movie "who's" content and theme doesn't really sits down nicely to everyone.
目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
Update 21 as of 29/01/10 (Temporary mega upload link).
Now sponsoring : video game analogies (ES)
Last update : Chapter 15 as of 21/01/10
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| Spoon 1904th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(7):frontier cafe" , posted Sat 6 Mar 12:48
quote:
I think that game has an esthetic that is much more potentially appealing to an Asian audience than most other non Japanese titles. It's a very nice looking game.
Eh? I'm an Asian born and raised in an Asian country and I don't find Mass Effect 2 "less" pleasing aesthetically or anything like that. I will say ACII uses a lot of red/white color scheming. I'd eventually get the ME trilogy once I have a decent rig of my own. Right now Ubi's DRM practices are questiable.
I also don't think Asian cultures necessarily adhere to the kawaiisa principle of only liking something just because it looks cute. That's a pretty persumptive stereotype and from much of the fanart I'm seen, most of it is also with the secondary characters (Al-Mualim, Mario), much of them rendered more realistically than the other works that these fanartists usually draw.
I guess the Holy Land and Renaissance Italy are just pertty cool settings for a game. Perhaps that's the reason it stood out among the rest.
That or Hideo Kojima's shilling actually helped.
A beautiful digital recreation of Renaissance Italy should be aesthetically appealing to all but the angriest of luddites. Still, your protagonist in it is a person who looks cool, moves awesome, and kills lots of people in dramatic and stylish ways. I'd be happy if the game was just running around in Renaissance-era clothing and plotting how to get the upper-hand in having your favoured candidate elected Pope, but that's neither here nor there.
I don't think it's a case of whether or not ME2's aesthetic is better or worse; it's whether or not it fits what people like/expect. Western-envisioned sci-fi is just as full of sexbombs as anything Japan throws out, but is the brand of sci-fi that you want one that looks inspired by Syd Mead (ME2), one that looks like it comes from the 1950s (SMT Strange Journey's suits...), or one that features stereotypically anime-pretty men and stereotypically anime-pretty/cute/beautiful women? ME2 also has a lot of stubbled, wrinkly, middle-aged men, as well as various anthropomorphic aliens that are not space elves, cat/animal people, or gorgeous Asians.
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| sfried 490th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(8):frontier cafe" , posted Sat 6 Mar 13:44:
quote:
ME2 also has a lot of stubbled, wrinkly, middle-aged men, as well as various anthropomorphic aliens that are not space elves, cat/animal people, or gorgeous Asians.
I don't think stubbled wrinkled middle age men has stopped any piece of work from becoming successful in Japan, sci-fi or not. Also, you forget the Asari race in ME are all a bunch of space amazons who are also bisexual. How does that not count as a "space elf"?
I'm starting to suspect it might be more with having to do with the localization. From what I know, AC got dubbed, while Mass Effect was merely subtitled. Talk about limiting its appeal.
[this message was edited by sfried on Sat 6 Mar 13:51] |
| Professor 2581th Post
MMCafe Owner
     
| "Re(8):frontier cafe" , posted Sun 7 Mar 06:05:
LOL, it's really starting to feel like an old cafe, isn't it. That reminds me that I need to fix up the registration page-- the filter's been a bit *too* tightened in the past half year or so due to the spambots.
I can emphasize with game backlogs-- the DS and arcades is where most of my gaming is taking place nowadays.
quote:
That's what I was getting at. It's a great looking game, very universally beautiful because it's steeped in more classical ideals and that's also what makes it more appealing to an Asian audience. I was hoping to actually fight against the stereotype that Asians only like Kawaii things or that Japanese are xenophobic and only like Japanese things. Last time I was at the airport in Taiwan, they had Milo Manara books for sale. If you go to Amazon.co.jp and look up Street Fighter art books, their code usually suggests "other people who bought this Street Fighter book also bought this Burn Hogarth book" (and also Frank Frazetta and other western artists if you keep scrolling). I was just hoping to suggest that Asians have broader tastes than some writers tend to give them credit for and that the success of Assassin's Creed overseas is demonstrative of that.
Eh... i really didn't mean to turn this into an East vs West thing at all. It's just a topic that's constantly on my mind (aesthetics on a personal and generalized cultural scale) and I'm still trying to figure out a way to discuss it without stepping on peoples toes.
This is a subject that I've been interested in myself as of late.
All in all, it seems to differ slightly from country to country in the east, depending on a number of factors, including
1-whether English is used frequently in that country
2-whether that country has a history of selling printed matter from the west, prior to the advancement of the internet
3-how big the artist community & market in that country is.
BTW, the 'also purchased' list on Amazon's Street Fighter book-- that 300page chunk is like a perfect exercise book for art students, especially for those learning anatomy. That's why there's some western artworks.
For Japan's case, one easy way of seeing the latest art preference is to check Pixiv's daily top 50's (account required).
quote:
Funny you've mentioned Renaissance. I've seen a lot of Assassin's Creed fanart on pixiv, particularly of 2. How did the games become such a hit there? Did Ubisoft just know how to market/localize their games better than most other big publishers like EA?
AC2 sold about 49 thousand copies on its first week ranking at 10th and then fell below the top 20's on week two; whether you can call that a hit, I'm not sure. I think it's at least safe to call it a silent success. As for Pixiv, it's mostly boy's love artists, the kind that were into Metal Gear Solid. Except this time, it's all about Altair and Malik.
[this message was edited by Professor on Sun 7 Mar 06:16] |
| Pollyanna 2871th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(9):frontier cafe" , posted Sun 7 Mar 06:19
quote:
Hey Polly, tell us why you love ME2.
I love it because it's one of the best games I've ever played. I might go so far as to say it's one of the "definitive masterpieces of gaming", whatever that means.
I'm not quite done with the game...I'm about to do the final mission and I hate to pass judgment until I'm completely finished with a game. What if it fails to capitalize on the ideas it's presented? What if the theme doesn't come together? A bad ending doesn't make a bad game, but it might make you wonder if the themes and feelings that you experienced were all in your head.
I was only going to list the things I don't like about the game, because everything is so fantastic that I could say "well, these little things don't suit my fancy, but everything else is practically perfect" (or at the very least, perfect for what they were going for).
I guess if I had to pick why I really like it...what elevates it from just "excellent game"...I would have to say it's because the writing is consistently excellent. The game totally works on a "save the universe from scary alien monsters" level, but if you asked me what the game was about I would say "social dilemmas" with a bit of moral ambiguity. I like that it's an adult game, not because it has people getting shot in the head or sex or dirty language, but because it has concepts that younger players wouldn't appreciate. Not that they necessarily wouldn't understand, but that they might not look for in a game. And it's not really preachy about it either.
One of the subtleties that I really got a kick out of was the sort of generation gap in Quarian thinking. That is to say, Tali's pessimism about returning to their home world made a lot of sense to me from the perspective of a generation that is as far removed from the time on the world as it is from a solution. This wasn't a big part of the game, but these little things here there and everywhere really mean a lot.
And the great thing is, the game would still be insanely fun, even if it wasn't so cleverly written.
Anyway...I could go on and on, but I'd rather be finishing up the game.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| sfried 490th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(9):frontier cafe" , posted Sun 7 Mar 15:28
quote:
East vs. West... again
Well, I think it's impossible to deny the fact that there are differences in tastes and opinions across the different parts of the world. Whether the regions up for comparsion are some gigantic chunk of Asia vs. the European + North American continent (it's kind of amazing that comparisons to that extent are even possible... but people try!) or something a little more geographically modest, it'd be wrong to say that there are no differences and everybody accepts everything equally.
The best way to discuss it without stomping on other people's feet is to do so with research and analysis. If you can clearly articulate the technical differences in aesthetics between the major hit games of demographic X vs. demographic Y, then you're doing well. It's a not an insignificant thing to do: more than one MMORPG right now that are doing ok in the "West" is determining how to (reasonably) modify their aesthetic so that it can be more successfully marketed to parts of Asia.
I think clumping togther all parts of Asia into one giant "East" and saying European tastes do not differ than much from Americans doesn't help matters much for comparisons. Take, for example, how Star Craft became such a huge hit in South Korea. It was pretty popular in places like the Phillipines, too...And it has all the tropes of "bald-spacemarineville" that you can find. I wouldn't be surprised if people also feel for characters like Jim Raynor.
quote:
AC2 sold about 49 thousand copies on its first week ranking at 10th and then fell below the top 20's on week two; whether you can call that a hit, I'm not sure. I think it's at least safe to call it a silent success. As for Pixiv, it's mostly boy's love artists, the kind that were into Metal Gear Solid. Except this time, it's all about Altair and Malik.
I thought I saw some amazing oil paintings posted there. I'd thought I'd find more talent of that ilk. Guess I might have to look elsewhere.
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| ONSLAUGHT 3878th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Sun 7 Mar 19:04:
... and this is my favorite thread on the MMCafe!
quote:
Finished Mass Effect...more discussion later, but for now:
So, what do you think? Did it get better or worse with that ending?
I love the first ME, everything in it, even with all its problems. I had a few problems with some changes implemented in the sequel, like the ammo system, the omnigel feature or how they switched around a few buttons like Save/Load (I loaded once instead of saving, thank heavens for that smart quicksave feature) and the X/B setup for the galaxy map, but I quickly forgot them after seeing how they managed to improve the combat system, the technical issues (no texture popup this time!) and the variety of the missions (and while they are still the same "kill everything that moves" kind, at least you don't have to do them in the same boring warehouse with the crates rearranged). One thing I really miss is the Mako, I know most people didn't like it but it wasn't too bad (except on that planet called Nodacrux, stupid mountains).
But I'll tell you something, even if the sequel hadn't improved anything of that, I would still love it, because the writing is great, it triggers a wide array of emotions in me, I genuinelly care for the characters, it is a joy to see them develop, I get anxious when they are in danger, I laugh a lot with this game and sometimes it brings tears of joy to my eyes.
I started the first game as renegade, being an asshole to everyone, killing and outright executing people (and genocided a couple of races!) left and right, telling my crew not to bother me with their petty problems, punching reporters and talked some into committing suicide, etc.
I loved being the bad guy, I loved giving the finger to the government, but then I played a second time, this time as paragon, and I liked it equally! Suddenly I cared about my crew, I cared about helping people, I wasn't the murdering asshole of the first playthrough, but a compassionate and caring yet imperfect human being.
Then I played the game again, and again and again, memorizing every line, reading the codex over and over and being nice to my crew even if I was still a murderous bastard to everyone else (kiss my ass council!).
It goes withouth saying, that Mass Effect 2 was my most anticipated game for a couple of years.
The intro sequence gave me goosebumps, it was so powerful and moving, and I almost shed a tear when the piano notes marked the end of the beginning.
I wanted to play as a full renegade, (to conmemorate the first time I played ME) but I couldn't! I could not be an ass to my former crew, but most importantly, I didn't want to. Sure, I was still a bad guy to some of the new characters (but even they won me over pretty quickly. Oh Mordin, how I love you!), but I was overjoyed when I found Tali, Garrus and the rest of my former team, I felt I was encountering old friends, not just the cast of polygons of some game.
Both games are full of powerful and emotive moments, even a line of dialog from the news network can bring a smile to your face.
I'm in my 4th playthrough with my paragon female Shepard imported from the first game and I'm still encountering small details that bring a smile to my face.
Can't wait for Mass Effect 3!
[this message was edited by ONSLAUGHT on Sun 7 Mar 19:10] |
| Pollyanna 2873th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Sun 7 Mar 21:18
Before I start rambling, has anyone read the Mass Effect novels? Are they worth looking into?
quote:
So, what do you think? Did it get better or worse with that ending?
The ending itself was the most absurd cliffhanger I've ever seen (this isn't a bad thing necessarily), but the end MISSION blew my mind! At first I thought "you spend the entire game recruiting your crew and then it's practically over!? How empty!", but when I saw the importance that every character played in the final mission, and how your decisions and relationships with them all came together to decide the outcome, I understand why they did it that way.
The fact that it's possible for anyone to die scared the crap out of me. There's always that "who knows if we'll be coming back" moment in RPGs, but here it MEANT something. I was so proud of my Shepard when everyone made it out alive. I wanted to play through again on the Renegade path, but I just can't. I'm too attached to the Shepard that (maybe?) saved the galaxy for me.
Also, Renegade seems just a little silly to me because it denies so many characters closure. I felt like one of the big themes in the game is "there's always another way". When two people are locked on a path of ruin, Paragon Shepard saves them both...helps them grow stronger...alleviates their doubts about themselves. That's what makes Shepard special...someone worth bringing back from the dead. I can't believe that the captain who talks crap to his/her crew at any opportunity and shoots anyone who disagrees with him/her is the right person to save the universe. Besides, Shepard is still tough and snarky, even on the Paragon path.
Still, having Renegade there is an awesome option. The idea that "I can save the universe because I'm the biggest badass who ever lived" is an appealing one...it's just also a little silly.
I played pretty steady Paragon, but I had to indulge in renegade actions every once in a while. Some people just deserved to be told off/punched/shot. The temptation was too great...the fact that it is a temptation is awesome. I wish there were more negative consequences to the Paragon path, though. Every situation ends with minimal violence and everyone feeling better about themselves. There's that one Asari girl (forgot her name) you can spare that gives you a sense of moral ambiguity, but other than that, Paragon almost always seems like the "right" choice. I would have liked it to fail me more...like "maybe that person really was better off dead" or "if I had been more aggressive, I could've saved someone's life". Or maybe you spare a criminal out of kindness and they kill someone innocent.
But anyway, long story short, ME2 is one of the very few games that I would call a masterpiece. It succeeds on every level...all of its elements come together flawlessly. It made me feel every emotion under the rainbow, it never got on my nerves, it was a dream to play, and both the writing and the game itself are strong enough to stand on their own.
I do have some complaints with the game, but most of them fall into a preference thing. Like...it doesn't specifically appeal to me, but it works well within the game itself.
My only legitimate (I believe) complaint is that the hair in the game looks so awful. The haircuts (which are few) are poorly designed, repeated sickeningly among NPCs and look greasy as hell. The game looks amazing...there are so many excellent designs in it. Hair does not stack up.
Also, in a related issue, it's very easy to make a total freak Shepard. With female Shepard you're given a wealth of options that
nobody in their right mind would pick. Don't get me wrong...I like the fact that you can't make her too cutesy or feminine, but I think they should've put a bit more thought into the many many choices that make her into a complete beast.
I can't fault the game for this (you can't have it all), but I was a bit sad that you didn't get to see the crew interact with the other crew members much. All of the characters had a strong story and a strong relationship with Shepard, but most of them had little to no relationship with each other. In ME3, I'd like to see some sort of "crew dinner" or whatever option where characters who normally might not interact have a chance to talk to one another.
On a final note, I don't want to go on and on about (romantic) relationships in the game (Garrus 4ever!), but I thought Thane's love-love scenario was kind of...weird, especially with the sudden "I want you" option. It's like "talking about your DEAD WIFE, CHILD and FINAL DAYS really gets me hot!"
Although my favorite awkward scenario is Samara's loyalty mission:
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
"Act really cool and seduce my bisexual serial killer daughter so I can burst into her apartment and kill her."
End of Spoiler
And Shepard doesn't even bat an eye. There's no mission s/he isn't up to!
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| Gojira 2582th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Mon 8 Mar 00:20
quote:
I wish there were more negative consequences to the Paragon path, though. Every situation ends with minimal violence and everyone feeling better about themselves. There's that one Asari girl (forgot her name) you can spare that gives you a sense of moral ambiguity, but other than that, Paragon almost always seems like the "right" choice. I would have liked it to fail me more...like "maybe that person really was better off dead" or "if I had been more aggressive, I could've saved someone's life". Or maybe you spare a criminal out of kindness and they kill someone innocent.
I got an interesting email at some point about a guy who got out of prison because of one of Shepard's paragon actions. I don't know what it meant, since nothing seemed to happen in ME2 as a result, but he did make a roundabout threat to kill someone close to me. So if something comes of that, maybe there will be some meaning to not going paragon.
quote:
Although my favorite awkward scenario is Samara's loyalty mission:
And Shepard doesn't even bat an eye. There's no mission s/he isn't up to!
And compounding the awkwardness of that mission:
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
If you can choose paragon/renegade options when she's trying to seduce Shepard, you will get the bizarre choice to kill Samara instead, at which point her daughter replaces her in your crew. You can even pursue a relationship with her, which of course ends... badly.
End of Spoiler
I can say I love ME2 also. I wouldn't go so far as "masterpiece," since there's always room for improvement, but I do think Bioware really hit the sweet spot for the development model with ME2. It's like they completely read my mind on everything that was bad about ME1, even the things I never mentioned to anyone, and not only improved those things but instilled a method to continue improving.
I'd like to say that I'm surprised people here would like it, but when I think about it the game resembles a JRPG in more ways than one now. There are quite a few similarities to aspects of the Star Ocean series at its peak. But with a tighter story.
shipoopi
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| Spoon 1908th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(3):I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Mon 8 Mar 03:43
There are lines between being nice/trusting/naive which Paragon should always have to grapple with. Being Paragon shouldn't mean being a pacifist, and it doesn't make sense that someone who has had the life that Shepard has had would be overly quick to trust anybody. The Asari on Ilium being a good lesson in that. The universe is full of assholes, and having events that "punish" you for being too trusting would have the nice effect of not only making you want to pick neutral/Renegade options out of your own personal experience, but also make picking the Paragon choice a more conscious act. It's certainly something that has been discussed at length in the offices.
One thing that I hope will be more fully explored in ME3 is the conversation interrupts. Often if you are able to do an interrupt that jives with your Paragon/Renegade alignment, it doesn't feel like there is a very good reason NOT to do it. Sure lashing out at every opportunity might fit certain molds of Renegade, but taking that approach ought to have more consequences.
I tend to agree that the basic plot of ME2 is merely ok, but that the strong characterization and writing that permeates the game more than makes up for it. There is a huge amount of stuff in the game that is genuinely funny, and the establishment of each species' culture and voice that allows for all the funny/interesting ambient conversations is great.
Mordin is certainly one of the most favourite characters, what with his often hilarious lines and his absolutely perfectly acted and filtered voice. Any standouts for you guys, character-wise or conversation-wise?
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| Spoon 1909th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(4):I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Mon 8 Mar 05:02
quote:
Interesting observation. Could you elaborate on this? I've never really liked the idea of "JRPGs" and "WRPGs" as separate exclusive camps. I would love to hear what common ground you see between Mass Effect and other console RPGs of the past.
One major feature of JRPGs is the distinct division between gameplay modes. When you are exploring a town, you are in the "exploring game". When you are fighting monsters, you are in the "fighting game". WRPGs have had that, but from even a very early stage they've tried to make it so that at any time you have the full set of actions available to you: you might enter "combat mode", but you aren't suddenly in a different dimension from the rest of the game (usually). You can fight anybody anywhere, no matter how bad of an idea it may be. Constantly having a huge breadth of options/actions that you can try makes the game world as a whole feel a little more integrated, a little more connected, but oftentimes, a little more sloppy. In most FF, when you are exploring, you can open up your equip screen, cast healing spells, and otherwise hit A to attempt to interact with anything that has been marked for interaction. The parts of the JRPG may seem a little more deliberately designed, but at the same time the player often has to play exactly the game that the designers made. WRPGs are games in which stuff can happen because the player decided that trying to steal from somebody in the middle of town and getting caught resulting in a gunfight that kills everybody in town and the player goes, "well, now I have to sort through all these piles of loot... on the plus side, I now have access to everything the shopkeepers were carrying because they're ALL DEAD". In a JRPG, such an event probably only occurs because the designers scripted it to.
In ME2, you have only one real button while in "explore" mode: Interact. It might be Spacebar, it might be the "A" button. In any case, in a given level where you can hit the "A" button on something, that something was very deliberately placed there for the purpose of hitting the "A" button, not just a room decoration that you happen to also be able to Take/Smash/Light On Fire/Throw/etc. When you are fighting, you might still be able to hit the "A" button on things, but you can't try to do crazy stuff like put enemies into your inventory or equip coins in your right hand and that pot you picked up from a kitchen in your left hand; anything in your (highly restricted) "inventory" is there deliberately, you can either Shoot or Melee or Use Power on enemies. Your options are more restricted, more designed, and exist intentionally.
The feeling/illusion of total freedom and the capacity to just "mess around" is largely absent in ME2 compared to games like Elder Scrolls series, Ultima 7, etc.
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| Maou 1933th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(5):I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Mon 8 Mar 05:09
quote:
WRPGs are games in which stuff can happen because the player decided that trying to steal from somebody in the middle of town and getting caught resulting in a gunfight that kills everybody in town and the player goes, "well, now I have to sort through all these piles of loot... on the plus side, I now have access to everything the shopkeepers were carrying because they're ALL DEAD". In a JRPG, such an event probably only occurs because the designers scripted it to.
Good points, Spoon, though it's worth remembering too that either kind occurs because the designers scripted it, it's just that Western RPG/adventure games in the old style just scripted a wealth of non-story events like this whereas most Japanese RPG's never did. I think it was really a difference in focus---in older Western RPG's, there was never that strong of a driven narrative story, with the focus instead being on experimenting in the environments and getting into long conversation trees with people. I think that the desire to make movie- or book-like stories in Japanese RPG's made for a lot fewer random events, which both made for better overall stories but a lot less fun exploring around.
I never played many Western RPG's, but I sure loved Quest for Glory. I'd play that in a heartbeat if I could get DOS Box to work. And I'd get into the same kind of trouble you mention by accidentally threatening people with my knife or stealing things or falling off roofs.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| ONSLAUGHT 3879th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Enkindle this!" , posted Mon 8 Mar 05:22:
quote:
Will I still enjoy the game, even if I am unable to enjoy shows like Babylon 5, Firefly, and Battle Star Galactica?
I am not Pollyanna, but I can try to answer that for you. I haven't seen any of the shows you mentioned, yet I enjoyed the game from the beginning. The universe they created is huge with convincing background for almost any concept you can find within the game.
That said, I think you should give the first game a try, that way you'll enjoy the sequel a lot more.
Speaking of things I didn't like was the exclusion of Cam Clarke as the codex voice, but at least they got someone that sounds very similar to him. Also, I missed Admiral Hackett, even though I received an email from him.
Speaking of emails, I wish they would have given the option of at least replying to them once, since it was nice to hear from people you helped or interacted with in the frist game. I laughed out loud with the "space nigerian scam" message I got, Morlan's spam or the chain letter from some unknown person.
What about the advertisements? Remember, you haven't experienced Shakespeare until you have heard him in the voice of Elcors!
The salarian salesman wondering why people make a fuzz about GTA (Grim Terminus Alliance!) if it's only a game (who cares if you beat slaves?).
And who else wants some kind of spin off or DLC featuring Blasto, the first Hanar Spectre? I want to see him team up with The Biotic God and Conrad Verner, righting wrongs in the galaxy (like that guy trying to get a refund for two years!), even if they poke through crates for a few extra credits from time to time.
[this message was edited by ONSLAUGHT on Mon 8 Mar 05:27] |
| Gojira 2584th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Mon 8 Mar 07:21
quote:
I'd like to say that I'm surprised people here would like it, but when I think about it the game resembles a JRPG in more ways than one now. There are quite a few similarities to aspects of the Star Ocean series at its peak. But with a tighter story.
Interesting observation. Could you elaborate on this? I've never really liked the idea of "JRPGs" and "WRPGs" as separate exclusive camps. I would love to hear what common ground you see between Mass Effect and other console RPGs of the past.
Well, I think I first need to clarify what I consider to be the primary difference between JRPGs and WRPGs, since this point of contention varies with your personal perspective. To me a JRPG is focused heavily on story and characters, to the point where you are not so much in control as you are directing control. The systems tend to take a back seat - even if they're good, they won't overshadow the story or characters. WRPGs tend to be much less focused than this; as long as it has classes, stats, item management, and a non-linear world it can be a WRPG. Anything else is just bonus appeal.
There's always a lot more to talk about with this, but hopefully I can leave it at that.
So when I say ME2 is like a JRPG, I mean it's very focused on plot and characters. Not only that, but it has abandoned a lot of the WRPG standards that were forced into ME1. There is almost no point to leveling now; it's just something that happens as you progress. There's almost no item collecting either; outside of the four elements you use to get upgrades, your stock of healing items, and a few new weapons scattered about, there's nothing to find. The battle engine has no depth, no stats or numbers flying everywhere; just find cover, shoot/use power, repeat. So in the end you're just looking for more places to go and more people to interact with, but since this is what the game is best at, it's not a problem.
The relationship aspect strikes me as especially JRPG-ish because well, the Star Ocean series has pretty much the same thing. Private actions in SO may be a bit more abstract than Mass Effect's straightforward courting choices, but they are nonetheless similar. And what do they add to the gameplay? Very little, if anything. It's just to get more in-depth with your favorite characters, not much else. And again, since that is what the game is best at, it's not a problem.
So I think overall in the way the game flows, the manner in which it forces you to play, and the things it emphasizes, it's quite a bit like a JRPG.
P.S: Sorry but I don't believe I've played Azure Dreams.
shipoopi
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| Pollyanna 2874th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Mon 8 Mar 09:17
So much to talk about! Let me hit on this one first...
quote:
You mentioned in the past that ME2 was kind of off putting at first. What made you change your mind? I had very little interest in the game before I read this thread. My impression of the game is that it aspires to be like various Sci-fi channel shows that I could never get fully invested in. Will I still enjoy the game, even if I am unable to enjoy shows like Babylon 5, Firefly, and Battle Star Galactica?
Let me just say that there is no one who likes video games I would not recommend this game to. It's almost like recommending Wander and the Collosus. It's not like the two are anything alike, just that they're both unmistakably excellent.
Gojira hit, in great detail on both the WRPG/JRPG thing as well as what changed my mind about the game. Generally speaking, I don't like WRPGs. I don't like "open world" type games. When I realized that ME2 was a character and story driven RPG with excellent writing and non-vomit inducing aesthetics, where it came from made no difference. It embodies everything I want in a game. I was also grateful to escape all of the horrid conventions that plague JRPGs...like stereotyped characters/stories and preachy, painfully repetitive dialogue. For a game that brings up so many tough issues, ME is surprisingly non-preachy. It lets you draw your own conclusions. It encourages debate.
Then, to touch on what Onslaught said...
quote:
The universe they created is huge with convincing background for almost any concept you can find within the game.
That said, I think you should give the first game a try, that way you'll enjoy the sequel a lot more.
The universe is fantastically well-constructed. The social and racial issues in the game are especially strong. You find yourself wondering how you should feel...you may find yourself being racist. There's a pull between "we are all alike" and "you can't expect every race to be the same". The decisions you make in the game aren't always difficult, but the ideas that the game leaves you with linger long after playing it. It opens discussion.
I am not a big fan of sci-fi anything outside of maybe Galaxy Express and the universe appealed to me tremendously. Time and time again I found myself saying "this isn't normally what I like, but it's so overwhelmingly good that I can't help but love it." Unless you have an AGGRESSIVE loathing for Sci-fi, I don't think it's an obstacle to enjoying the game.
However, I do not necessarily think you should play the first game. I watched a small part of it being played and I read up on it a bit, and ME2 still became one of my immediate all-time favorites. In a perfect world, it would be nice to play the first game, but with limited time and money, ME2 is definitely the better choice. I would recommend checking out a summary of the first game, but even going in blind, you'll catch on pretty fast. Just my opinion, though.
Speaking of opinions:
A random note on Shepard
I think the game is more interesting with a female Shepard. I'm trying not to be "Grrl power" here, I just think she's a more unique character. I like that you can't make her stunningly beautiful...that she's "just a woman". But...she's "just a woman" in a man's role, whereas male Shepard is "just a man" in a man's role. By not altering the game (much) to meet the needs of the opposite gender, it ends up being unusually refreshing (and not sexist) to use a female character. Also, I like her voice better. She ended up being my favorite character.
quote:
Mordin is certainly one of the most favourite characters, what with his often hilarious lines and his absolutely perfectly acted and filtered voice. Any standouts for you guys, character-wise or conversation-wise?
There's way too much for me to mention in specific when this post is already monstrously long. Mordin really was an incredible character, though...and aggressively unique. The conversations you have with him are both funny and strangely touching. I found myself laughing with a tear in my eye more than once. His scenario embodies some of the hardest-hitting concepts in the series and his perspective is terribly unique.
Of course, his VA is great, but it's hard to find a bad performance in the game. Almost everyone is outstanding. I would say it's my favorite English language dub, for sure. I guess Mordin is a bit special, though, since he handles both comedic and dramatic things so well...simultaneously.
One a sidenote, I blame Kelly for the (Varren, was it?) STD issue he brought up. I think that line made me laugh harder than anything else in the game.
Garrus' romance scenario was INSANELY cute, with more awesome lines than I can shake a stick at. He may not be handsome, but Garrus is a catch, for sure.
As far as touching lines go...there were quite a few, but one that hit me especially hard was one on Tali's loyalty mission:
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
"I don't know what's worse: thinking that he never really cared, or thinking that he did and this was the only way he could show it."
End of Spoiler
Also Miranda's line about
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
"only being able to take credit for her mistakes"
End of Spoiler
was strong.
Aaaaand....
quote:
Don't know what comes up with the second novel but you can skip the first one.
It's about Anderson and his mission of evaluation as a Spectre. Is an episode briefly summarized in the first game and pretty useless in the ME universe. Unless you have a thing for Anderson or Saren.
Thanks for the advice. I was more concerned if they were a good read, regardless of if they were necessary to the overall universe or not. Maybe I'll see if I can check them out from the library instead of throwing down money.
Sorry if I forgot anything!
I agree that the E-mails are totally awesome, but I don't have anything to add...
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| ONSLAUGHT 3879th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Mon 8 Mar 11:36
If you have the chance to play the first game, by all means, go for it.
Pollyanna:
I think you would enjoy ME2 a LOT more if you had played the first game.
As I said before you encounter lots of small details and references to the first game, that you can't avoid smiling at them.
Spoilers for the first and second game
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
The talk with Legion becomes a thousand times more emotive/awesome if you experienced this.
When you encounter Ashley or Kaidan in Freedom's Progress you feel happy because you encounter an old friend/lover, but feel sad at the same time, because the music that plays is this one.
You get to hear through the whole Citadel that you are "The Man/Woman that stopped Saren", but if you don't know who Saren is it won't have the desired impact.
End of Spoiler
I could go on and on, but I strongly advise to play the first game, watching it on youtube is not enough. I repeat, not playing it won't stop you from enjoying ME2, but if you do, it will greatly enhance your experience and it will be a lot more emotionally impactful.
Sorry if my english sounds worse than before.
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| nobinobita 697th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "shilling Just Cause 2" , posted Mon 8 Mar 14:36:
In the spirit of this shilling thread I feel an urgent need to recommend that everyone go out and download the demo for Just Cause 2. I have never played the first game, I don't know a single thing about the developer, it just came out of nowhere for me and blindsided me with how RIDICULOUSLY FUN it is.
This is the best game demo I've ever played. There is more fun to be had from this demo than most entire well regarded games.
Just Cause 2 is a sandbox game done right. I don't even know where to begin, you'll have to excuse the stream of consciousness nature of this post.
Here are the best things about it:
1) awesome, truly unique grappling mechanic
2) GREAT controls with incredibly focus on agility and mobility
3) truly expansive, completely explorable and interactive world
4) sparkling personality that comes through not in the story or art design, but in the things you are allowed to do.
5) truly open ended gameplay that encourages and rewards creative solutions
I'll try to go into greater detail about each point.
1) In the game, your character is armed with a grappling gun and unlimited instant parachutes (to glide to safety from any height). It allows you to do all the standard grappling stuff you can do in other games, ie climb onto any surface and speedily vault your way through environments. BUT, there is an extra dimension to it. The game allows you to tether things together. You simply shoot one thing with the grapple gun, then shoot another and bam, they are tied together.
This is simply the coolest weapon in a game since the gravity gun in HalfLife 2. I dare say its actually way more fun.
Here are some of the things you can do with the tether mechanic:
-shoot a guy then hang him from a tree and shoot him again
-shoot a guy and tether him to a propane tank, shoot the propane tank and watch as it pulls him away then explodes.
-shoot a guy, tether him to a car, run him over with the car then drive the car off of a cliff parachute to safety (while dropping a grenade) and listen for the satisfying crash and explosion.
-tether a car to a helicopter then drag it along as a battering ram.
The possibilities seem endless. And this is just the demo.
2) The controls are extremely responsive and intuitive. You will find yourself barreling through the landscape switching vehicles left and right engaging in incredible acrobatics with ease. The grappling gun has incredible reach and accuracy, and the parachute is really fun to control. You can even bob up and down on the wind with it, like Mario's cape (but much more forgiving). There are no lame QTEs either (well, very few of them), you're in full control all the time.
3) These are some of the most expansive environments in any game. You'll spend alot of time high up in the air seeing the landscape stretch far into the horizon and amazingly, you can explore just about everything you can see.
4)This game has an awesome attitude to it. I usually don't like sandbox games cos I derive no pleasure from hurting innocent people. But Just Cause 2 doesn't have such a sadistic feeling to it. It's very silly, like a Chuck Norris movie. In fact, it even has some hilariously campy cut scenes with inexplicable editing.
5) I can't stress enough how good the gameplay is in this game. I typically play games more for their esthetic qualities than anything else. This game, i play purely for fun. Just Cause 2 is a case study in how to make a fun game. EVERYTHING about it is rewarding and encouraging.
The controls are tight. The mechanics are well thought out and reward expirmentation as I've mentioned. There are always multiple ways to fulfill any objective (go in on foot, steal a vehicle and attack from the air etc). But it has an extra Nintendo-like layer of polish beyond this.
EVERYTHING about the game has been considerately implemented and just FEELS GOOD.
The game has an excellent physics engine. But rather than being there for realism, it is geared towards fun. Vehicle collisions are generally tilted in your favor. If you crash your car into on coming traffic, you usually come out on top. If you spectacularly flip your vehicle, odds are it'll roll back onto its right side and you can keep driving. You can parachute out of high speed collisions at the last minute and send yourself sailing into safety. Explosions are huge and satisfying and send everything sailing. Everything has way more hitpoints than it would in other games, but it's OK because it gives you more room to mess around. Helicopters have unlimited rockets, why? Because you deserve to have fun with them. Everything about the game is extremely rewarding without feeling pandering.
As I'm typing this, my friend has a took took tethered to a helicopter (with the rider still inside) but he's built up too much momentum with it, and now it's twirling out of control like a mace. Losing control is usually the opposite of fun, but in this game it is HILARIOUS (because you have to build up to these situations).
I could go on and on, but I've probably said more than enough. Much like Mass Effect 2, this isn't the kind of game that's typically discussed on the cafe, but I really think it warrants a look for anyone remotely interested in games. I'm definitely getting this game when it's released and I'm definitely going to find out who the developer is and keep and eye on them.
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Mon 8 Mar 14:52] |
| Spoon 1912th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(5):I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Mon 8 Mar 16:31:
quote:
One a sidenote, I blame Kelly for the (Varren, was it?) STD issue he brought up. I think that line made me laugh harder than anything else in the game.
Garrus' romance scenario was INSANELY cute, with more awesome lines than I can shake a stick at. He may not be handsome, but Garrus is a catch, for sure.
Yeah, the whole "Varren scale itch" issue implies buggery, and the only person on board who professes interest in all species and sexes is Kelly...
Garrus was so adorable and so genuine in his awkwardness, and the results for the "let's just be friends" option so depressing, that once that event triggers everyone who I know of who has played the game didn't want to pick the "let's just be friends" option. Everybody who did, just for the sake of seeing what happened, professed feeling horrible afterwards and loaded game. The relationship simulation might be kind of simplistic, and the total amount of conversation to be had with Garrus is actually not that much (and certainly nothing compared to those visual novel games) but when they manage to create that kind of endearment and impact with that said, you know they've managed to make something special.
quote:
just cause 2
I've heard a lot of good things about it, too!
I'll have to try it out sometime.
[this message was edited by Spoon on Mon 8 Mar 16:36] |
| KTallguy 1187th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member+
| "Re(10):I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Thu 11 Mar 10:58
It's funny because in these types of games, it's not about the designer leading the player through a specific, use this skill kind of challenge, but more like a real sandbox where you can do whatever you want.
I think this is good and bad. On the one hand, yes I can grapple one guy, then hook him to another guy and watch them fly into eachother and knock eachother out.
On the other hand, 99% of the time it's faster, safer, and easier to shoot them quickly.
That's why I get bored with most sandbox games kind of quickly , because in the end there is one method that is best, and you gravitate towards that one. Some of the better sandbox games require you to use all your skills though (Assassins Creed 2 is a decent example, and GTA4 makes you snipe/drive/shoot in specific missions).
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| ONSLAUGHT 3882th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Re(10):I'm Commander Shepard" , posted Sat 13 Mar 04:50:
quote:
Returning to ME2 topic.
It was announced a new content by April 6th.
It is called "Stolen Memory" and features a new character for Shepard's squad and a new weapon.
The new character will be a female thief named Kasumi who lost her memory....hope not crappy and useless as Zaeed (most ugly, stupid, uninventive and unecessary character of ME. He exist only to appeal young teenagers who play only fps and army games)
Great news! So this Kasumi character is real after all?
By the way, I liked Zaeed a lot, even though I'm not a teenager or an fps army gamer.
He brought nice balance to a deep cast, he's just a simple man with a simple job, he's blinded by revenge, nothing else matters. He also gives good pointers when you take him along for the different missions.
Sure, he's no Mordin or Tali, but I found him enjoyable enough.
Oh, by the way, I blame Grunt for the Varren STD, you know, adolescence...
[this message was edited by ONSLAUGHT on Sat 13 Mar 07:46] |
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"Re(1):fish in the citadel" , posted Tue 2 Mar 05:20:
