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Replies: |
| Professor 2571th Post
 
MMCafe Owner
     
|  "Re(5):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Sun 18 Oct 21:11:
quote:
I never really saw SNK (and SNKP) as a real force in the US market-- even back in the NeoGeo days. I saw them as appealing more to a niche market, like us. Over the years, I was literally the only person I knew who actually owned a NeoGeo system. Other than people I knew online, that is.
Truthfully, though, what surprises me is that they aren't still successful in Japan. Maybe someone who is more familiar with the Japanese market (rather than just making broad assumptions like me) can explain why it is that SNKP fighters haven't succeeded lately, despite the popularity of a lot of other newer fighters.
SNK was very, very successful in Japan back in the early 90's when it was called the golden age of fighting games. Nowadays, fighting games are very niche and only hardcore gamers are seen playing them in arcades. Beginners are nothing but prey, and it's no wonder the market is shrinking.
Anyways, with SNK/SNKP, all of their recent games are either
1) too simple for hardcore gamers to get interested in.
or
2) too unbalanced for hardcore gamers to get interested in.
Case 1 is with KOFXII and the 3D Samurai Shodown game, Case 2 is with some older titles like NGBC and KOFXI.
2D fighting game players have kind of split up into old-style fighting and new-style fighting. Or to put it another way, nowadays they either play SF4 or Blazblue. Not that there's that many other options, of course.
[this message was edited by Professor on Sun 18 Oct 21:15] |
| karasu99
233th Post
Frequent Customer
    
| "Re(6):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Mon 19 Oct 21:56:
quote:
SNK was very, very successful in Japan back in the early 90's when it was called the golden age of fighting games. Nowadays, fighting games are very niche and only hardcore gamers are seen playing them in arcades. Beginners are nothing but prey, and it's no wonder the market is shrinking.
Anyways, with SNK/SNKP, all of their recent games are either
1) too simple for hardcore gamers to get interested in.
or
2) too unbalanced for hardcore gamers to get interested in.
Case 1 is with KOFXII and the 3D Samurai Shodown game, Case 2 is with some older titles like NGBC and KOFXI.
2D fighting game players have kind of split up into old-style fighting and new-style fighting. Or to put it another way, nowadays they either play SF4 or Blazblue. Not that there's that many other options, of course.
These are some really interesting insights about 2D fighters. Thanks as always Professor! I especially appreciate the point about beginners being prey-- it's probably what stopped me from playing fighters in the arcade years ago. And it makes me realize that-- sad as it may be-- maybe it's time for SNKP to go under, and for their IPs to be snapped up by a developer who can actually put them to use, rather than SNKP just reanimating KOF's corpse for years to come.
[this message was edited by karasu99 on Tue 20 Oct 04:26] |
| Iron D 3316th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
    
     
| "Re(8):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Tue 20 Oct 07:51
quote:
SNK was very, very successful in Japan back in the early 90's when it was called the golden age of fighting games. Nowadays, fighting games are very niche and only hardcore gamers are seen playing them in arcades. Beginners are nothing but prey, and it's no wonder the market is shrinking.
While playing some Blazblue with some guy online, he was telling me over the mic how he entered some arcade where it turned out he was the only white guy in a crowd of asians. Somehow he beat someone in a fighting game which apparently was frowned upon. I hear about this all the time with other genre of games as well, like rhythm games.
He tells me some other asian punk comes up to him and challenges him and wipes the floor with him then just leaves. What kind of attitude is this? It's bad enough beginners get driven away from fighting games as it is, but this is very poor behavior and it's a wonder how anyone stays a fan of fighting games unless they're EXTREEEEEME over something as trivial as a video game which in itself is already childish to begin with.
I don't even wanna get into the details about some other guy's DDR knife-threat story. It's just laughable and it's no surprise that some people just abandon these would-be hardcore video game centers to enjoy something else less absurd.
I stick with the stuff I enjoy, but I'll avoid mixing in with the shenanigans of the wrong kind of crowd, and that's the derisive kind that is hardcore for something as sissy as video games. It's not my fault that they're closet nerds.
Oh, I've got a bunch of stories like that. Like the time a kid got a bunch of his buddies to try to beat me up after I beat him (pretty badly) at MvC1. He was seriously like "oh, you think you bad? Try that shit in real life" with him and his buddies. I shit you not. And another time where I was actually chased home by a bunch of idiots after beating them at SSF2.
But then again, these both happened when there were still arcades to go to and fighting games were still big, so I guess this is kind of OT.
OT, the current economy seems to be swallowing up any company that is small and not making any (or very little money). To be honest, I'm surprised SNKP is still alive as is.
And for once, Count Hihihi actually made a great point...I miss when SNK was more than just KoF (and I'll add Metal Slug to that). Man, I'd kill for a new Fatal Fury game, whether it was a sequel MotW or another game set in the original Fatal Fury series continuity. As long as it was at least as good as the classic FFs, I'd be ecstatic.
Er.....
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| Grave 1230th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(4):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Tue 20 Oct 12:25
I mean, these days I like getting my dick caught in my zipper better than SF4. Not saying much! No taunts, single winposes and things like that might seem small, but you can only take so many parts away from a whole before it starts to feel kind of empty. Super-limited movesets, no story segments, no boss, limited gameplay modes compared to this year's other fighting games, poor netplay... now that's a problem when you're still charging $60!
It's a shame that they ran out of resources, money, time, whatever! The sprites really are nice! Maybe not zoomed in that close, but they look so good and animate quite nicely! It's just, y'know, I tried to defend the buying of the game regardless of gameplay on another thread before the game released, and someone said that it was a ridiculous thing to suggest, buying a flawed game for full price for the hope of them getting it right next time. In time I came to agree with that and no, it's not a game I'll be spending my own money on until it's $30 or less. Especially considering that $20 KOF XI is a better game. Too bad they stripped progressive scan out of the US release! Stupids!
Well, at least Arc System Works hasn't alienated me... yet! 
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| bootation 581th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(5):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Tue 20 Oct 12:42
quote:
I mean, these days I like getting my dick caught in my zipper better than SF4. Not saying much! No taunts, single winposes and things like that might seem small, but you can only take so many parts away from a whole before it starts to feel kind of empty. Super-limited movesets, no story segments, no boss, limited gameplay modes compared to this year's other fighting games, poor netplay... now that's a problem when you're still charging $60!
It's a shame that they ran out of resources, money, time, whatever! The sprites really are nice! Maybe not zoomed in that close, but they look so good and animate quite nicely! It's just, y'know, I tried to defend the buying of the game regardless of gameplay on another thread before the game released, and someone said that it was a ridiculous thing to suggest, buying a flawed game for full price for the hope of them getting it right next time. In time I came to agree with that and no, it's not a game I'll be spending my own money on until it's $30 or less. Especially considering that $20 KOF XI is a better game. Too bad they stripped progressive scan out of the US release! Stupids!
Well, at least Arc System Works hasn't alienated me... yet! [:2ch_haha:
They took out progressive scan? Why?
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also chek out http://myspace.com/atomiswave2
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| nobinobita 635th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(3):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Tue 20 Oct 12:48
quote:
But hey, maybe SNK doesn't care about living on the edge of bankruptcy as long as they get to make the games they want to make.
Was KOF XII really the game anyone wanted to make? Or play?
I LOVE this game with all my heart. I know it's outright unfinished, but everything there is 100% right up my alley.
I like the controls (way smoother than other KOF titles), I like the medium pace of the game, I like the back to the basic mechanics (ok, they might be TOO simple, but i prefer simple to overly intricate, like Blazblue--which i must admit is a much more complete and balanced game) and I love the characters and overall visual execution.
I love the cast, the firm decision to return everyone to their most iconic forms. I love the animation which now has far more impact and character and feel more intuitive and actually improve the controls. And I absolutely adore the sprite art. I consider it one of the most beautiful games I've ever seen.
If there's any game of this generation where the artists got to do what they really wanted to do, I'd wager this was it.
Every visual decision in the game is so well thought out and so... mature and ungimmicky.
This game felt like a gift to me. I can't think of any other game of the last few years that felt so much like it was made by artists for artists. I don't mean to sound arrogant, like production artists know better than everyone else. I just mean that this game felt very very genuine, and not optimized for a mass market, or even for the hardcore fighting gamer market. It just felt like Nona and crew were doing what they really wanted to do with those characters. It has a strong, unique, ungeneralized timbre to it.
Unfortunately they ran out of budget and had to slap together what they could at the last minute. The game is so obviously unfinished that unless you're a rabid fan like me you will feel cheated for plunking down $60 for it. What's worse is that this game will probably bankrupt SNK (again) and send the message that no one wants to play this kind of game anymore.
Still, I can't help but love KOF XII and I feel like it loves me back. This is the true love making!
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| Toxico 4786th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
|  "Re(5):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Tue 20 Oct 17:42
quote:
The golden years when SNK released something else than just KOF. What a brilliant idea it was from SNKP to take KOF back to the basics.. you know, instead of giving us a new Fatal Fury or Art of Fighting game instead?
quote:
That the game had to be KOF in the first place was probably the biggest mistake. A Fatal Fury with 14-ish characters and this gameplay would have been easily acceptable and maybe even more marketable in the west
The main thing is; the teams that made AoF, Fatal Fury and most of the other alternative titles have long been disbanded, so; even if SNK would try to bring back to life some of those old franchises it would most likely end up a bad copipe that wouldn't really reflect the game of origen (like.... SvC chaos?).
No, let's play a what if game a little bit.... If SNK would have chosen to revive an old franchise, it would have been most likely Garou since it's the biggest name left behind. BUT market wise Garou is a very small game next to what KoF is, so it's unlikely that the high ups would have said "ok, let's develop a game for 4-5 years" KoF was the only game "big" enough so that SNK would expect to break out huge success and round up any production cost (but those hopes where in vain). I still remember the low numbers that RB2 got at it's release date (aka, summon Chaz button), I bet 90% of the current Garou or Gekka players haven't seen the games outside Nebula, ggpo or whatever is called whatever they are using to freely play in their pcs right now).
NOW, if we use or little imaginations and figure that SNK would have put out a Garou, Ryuuko, Gekka or Spirits or anything in 2.5D; that game would have been victim of the very same complains that KoF XII is victim of, aka this effort should have gone to make a true kof game with more than 40 characters, fast gameplay and blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, they where pretty much screwed in any case.
I do agree with what has been said a about XII, it's simply a game that shouldn't have been existed as it simply show how much personality the staff have and how many freedom they enjoyed while developing it. Perhaps the only constraint that SNK have was the un-ability to push the release date further. Considering the high production costs and low revenue of XII, I already realize how painful it would be to watch on how tightly tied up will be the hands of the developing staff of XIII.
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Last updated : 08/05/09 (99 personajes)
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| Fuu
1th Post
New Customer
| "Re(4):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Tue 20 Oct 18:49
quote:
The main thing is; the teams that made AoF, Fatal Fury and most of the other alternative titles have long been disbanded, so; even if SNK would try to bring back to life some of those old franchises it would most likely end up a bad copipe that wouldn't really reflect the game of origen (like.... SvC chaos?).
I generally agree, but it's not that Garou was much like the older FF games either; and the main complain with XII is that isn't anything like the old self.
quote:
NOW, if we use or little imaginations and figure that SNK would have put out a Garou, Ryuuko, Gekka or Spirits or anything in 2.5D; that game would have been victim of the very same complains that KoF XII is victim of, aka this effort should have gone to make a true kof game with more than 40 characters, fast gameplay and blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, they where pretty much screwed in any case.
... yeah this i can pretty much back up completely.
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| Professor 2573th Post
MMCafe Owner
| "Re(6):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Tue 20 Oct 22:05:
quote:
The golden years when SNK released something else than just KOF. What a brilliant idea it was from SNKP to take KOF back to the basics.. you know, instead of giving us a new Fatal Fury or Art of Fighting game instead?
Unfortunately they ran out of budget and had to slap together what they could at the last minute. The game is so obviously unfinished that unless you're a rabid fan like me you will feel cheated for plunking down $60 for it. What's worse is that this game will probably bankrupt SNK (again) and send the message that no one wants to play this kind of game anymore.
These are two points that I've kind of question myself.
First up, how popular is the KOF franchise outside of Japan? Sure enough it's SNKP's largest IP, but aren't the other games like Samurai Shodown, Art Of Fighting, Fatal Fury not too far in terms of recognition in the overseas market? (Or to put it another way, KOF isn't *that* well known.)
Second, KOFXII feels very slapped together. They did a horrendous job at changing the gameplay mechanism somewhere during the beta tests. It's up to personal taste, but I found it to be more fun in the earlier stages of testing, where jumps were slow and relatively useless. You were forced to fight up-close, and attacks were clashing all the time. Kind of felt like Garouden Breakblow.
[this message was edited by Professor on Wed 21 Oct 00:21] |
| Toxico 4789th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Wed 21 Oct 02:59:
quote:
These are two points that I've kind of question myself.
First up, how popular is the KOF franchise outside of Japan? Sure enough it's SNKP's largest IP, but aren't the other games like Samurai Shodown, Art Of Fighting, Fatal Fury not too far in terms of recognition in the overseas market? (Or to put it another way, KOF isn't *that* well known.)
In the US market wise KoF 'failed' big time because it couldn't de throne SF, (heck, in the US the series SF III and the Zeros even failed to de throne the original SF II  ).
However in central and sud america KoF and SNK had a huge impact. Even in the 90s KoF was more popular than SF (or even VF, SC or Tekken) heavily in many countries and in most arcades (For example in Chile currenty is hard to even find Capcom machines; but MVS and the like are everywhere). SNK has more or less recognized this by focusing their market here more than any other company; for example prior to bankruptcy we had an "SNK Peru" side office, and post bankruptcy we had some beta tests and events in Mexico), I remember even the KoF official site mentioned that they more or less created Ramon to target the market place one of their biggest zones of effect (It was somewhere in the designer's interviews).
Now, if you want more or less "Street Knowledge", "KoF" was the game that the lads in the hood where looking forward to play, and in between each release they would play samusupi or garou or SF. In Chile KoF was so "big" that we had a 94', 95' and '96 machine 3 weeks after their jp release. The acquisition of other games could be delayed for months from the cabinet operator point of view, but KoF money earns where needed fast. If we speak Credit wise the games where, some times; more expensive than the other franchises, but where still more intensely played.
I don't know about Europe, because it's an evil place with evil people.
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目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
Last updated : 08/05/09 (99 personajes)
Now sponsoring : videogame analogies
Last update : Chapter 9 as of 02/10/09
[this message was edited by Toxico on Wed 21 Oct 03:01] |
| Ishmael 3601th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Wed 21 Oct 03:48
quote:
What's worse is that this game will probably bankrupt SNK (again) and send the message that no one wants to play this kind of game anymore.
Which is why I will never love KoFXII. First, I don't know how KoFXII spiraled out of control but I feel sorry for all the SNKP employees who will be affected by this mess. Having your job get affected by someone else's mistake is never a good experience. Second, I dislike the impression it gives to fighting games as a whole. Whether it is an established hit like SF4, an upcoming hit like Tekken 6 or a cult favorite like BlazBlue there's a great deal of renewed interest in fighting games. What this popularity proved is that fighting games can still be more than a niche genre running on nostalgia and fanatical devotion but are viable games with mass market appeal. Into that mix comes the disheveled and unfinished KoFXII. Releasing a game in which most of the selling points could only appeal to the most devoted of the fanbase, SNKP reinforced every negative connotation that fighting games have built up over the years. Just as the success of one game can help another, the failure of a game can bring the whole genre down. So get it together SNKP, you're making everybody look bad!
quote:
These are two points that I've kind of question myself.
First up, how popular is the KOF franchise outside of Japan? Sure enough it's SNKP's largest IP, but aren't the other games like Samurai Shodown, Art Of Fighting, Fatal Fury not too far in terms of recognition in the overseas market? (Or to put it another way, KOF isn't *that* well known.)
Second, KOFXII feels very slapped together. They did a horrendous job at changing the gameplay mechanism somewhere during the beta tests. It's up to personal taste, but I found it to be more fun in the earlier stages of testing, where jumps were slow and relatively useless. You were forced to fight up-close, and attacks were clashing all the time. Kind of felt like Garouden Breakblow.
Why did the game engine in KoFXII get changed? Did all the players hate the beta? Or was the game changed when it was decided that KoFXII was going to emphasize the "classic" angle?
As for SNK -and SNKP- outside of Japan I only have anecdotal evidence from my own experiences. Around here SNK seemed to hit its peak with Samurai Shodown 2. While KoF games were around they often were stuffed into those horrible black and red Neo Geo multi-game cabinets. Games such as KoF that required a great deal of precise button pressing and joystiq movement never did too well in a set-up where the controllers were often broken because some clown beat the hell out of the cabinet playing Windjammers.
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| Spoon 1833th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(7):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Wed 21 Oct 04:06
quote:
Second, KOFXII feels very slapped together. They did a horrendous job at changing the gameplay mechanism somewhere during the beta tests. It's up to personal taste, but I found it to be more fun in the earlier stages of testing, where jumps were slow and relatively useless. You were forced to fight up-close, and attacks were clashing all the time. Kind of felt like Garouden Breakblow.
I think it's interesting that one of the featured game mechanics, a wall slam system, was removed.
I'm still kind of disappointed that they made KOFXII try to feel more like a regular KOF rather than trying to be it's own creature. It feels like they've wound up with something that is a dilution of their original vision and at the same time is a dilution of KOF. It's like they were first going to walk the road of SF3NG, then after the loketests they realized they were going to walk the road of SF3NG and remembered just how that went down for Capcom, decided to try a middle way, and wound up something that nobody is really happy with (except nobi, but for different reasons entirely).
However, knowing that somebody else here has played Garouden Breakblow makes me very happy! I like the interesting red-tinted lighting they use, the distinctive character modelling, and the wide variety of attack types and interactions... however, the gameplay feels rough, and not in a good way. It's been awhile since I last played it though, so the memories of the most grievous/bizarre move/frame advantage behaviours are foggy to me now. Still, I really liked how it tried to not just be a Tekken/VF/other 2D or 3D fighter clone, and for a while I kept wondering to myself if the game was just poorly designed/executed or if I just didn't get it.
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| Just a Person 1320th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):Re(10):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Wed 21 Oct 21:18
Well, I know that in Brazil, the KoF series is pretty popular. It's quite easy to find KoF arcade cabinets in places where arcade games still exist (shopping malls, bars and arcade houses - although there aren't many of those anymore). On the other hand, since KoF 2002, I don't remember seeing the newer games like '2003 and XI appearing in many places, and sometimes they are just emulators based in the console versions. And since most people don't own a PS3 or a X360 (PS2 is still the most popular console here), I guess KoF XII isn't really a best-seller in Brazil...
KoF XII had a lot of potential, it is a shame it didn't fulfill all the expectations. But I have hope that it won't be the last game from SNKP, and maybe in the next one we'll get a complete game. KoF XIII could even be a "KoF XII Turbo", just adding some characters, a couple of new stages, a final boss and a plot (it doesn't even need to be a huge plot like the usual KoF games; just follow the SFIV route and it's fine).
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| hikarutilmitt 515th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(2):Re(10):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Wed 21 Oct 22:18
quote:
What more is there to say other than let's wait for XIII? I appreciate XII for what it is. A promising demo for XIII. We knew that KOF Rebirth is too ambitious of an objective for SNKP to get right the first time. But they usually get it right the second time.
SVC's engine -> NGBC's engine
KOF 2003 tag -> KOF XI tag
Heck, even MI2 was a vast improvement over MI.
If you are a fan of KOF, SNK, 2D, or even fighters in general. Then now is the time to show your support, provide constructive feedback, and pray that they get XIII right. Not this I hope they get bought out nonsense. We need to make SNKP understand that getting online right is a pretty freakin big deal here in the next gen. And that next gen games are not just prettier PS2 games.
This is pretty much what I'm hoping for. It's a shame XII turned out how it did after so much hype for it, but XIII NEEDS to have more to it, arcade and console alike. It also needs to be faster than the original SF2. I'm not a speed monger by any means but the game is just far, far, FAR too slow, especially now.
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| Professor 2575th Post
MMCafe Owner
| "Re(8):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Wed 21 Oct 23:41:
quote:
However in central and sud america KoF and SNK had a huge impact. Even in the 90s KoF was more popular than SF (or even VF, SC or Tekken) heavily in many countries and in most arcades (For example in Chile currenty is hard to even find Capcom machines; but MVS and the like are everywhere). SNK has more or less recognized this by focusing their market here more than any other company; for example prior to bankruptcy we had an "SNK Peru" side office, and post bankruptcy we had some beta tests and events in Mexico), I remember even the KoF official site mentioned that they more or less created Ramon to target the market place one of their biggest zones of effect (It was somewhere in the designer's interviews).
Now, if you want more or less "Street Knowledge", "KoF" was the game that the lads in the hood where looking forward to play, and in between each release they would play samusupi or garou or SF. In Chile KoF was so "big" that we had a 94', 95' and '96 machine 3 weeks after their jp release. The acquisition of other games could be delayed for months from the cabinet operator point of view, but KoF money earns where needed fast. If we speak Credit wise the games where, some times; more expensive than the other franchises, but where still more intensely played.
I don't know about Europe, because it's an evil place with evil people.
obscene voodoo dance teleport
Wow, I knew that SNK was popular in the regions, but I didn't know about KOF's popularity. Thanks for clearing that up for me. That reminds me though, I remember of someone in Mexico trying to make a NeoGeo dedicated magazine back in the late 90s.. but I can't remember of the magazine's name. Humm....
[this message was edited by Professor on Wed 21 Oct 23:44] |
| Spoon 1837th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(10):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Thu 22 Oct 05:16
KOF has always been SNK's biggest game around here in BC, the others don't really compare.
When Samurai Shodown was new and there was actual variety in fighting games in the Neo-Geo multi cabinets, other games got play... but once KOF took hold, people ignored the other stuff. The Samurai Shodown games after 5 (including 5S and Tenka) got almost no play, NGBC was largely ignored, and SVC only got play from people who were already playing KOF2k2 a lot more.
98UM, however, didn't see a lot of play. In fact, I think more people play regular 98 than 98UM. 2k2 still sees a lot of play last I saw. 2k2UM I don't know. KOFXI some people play, but many who play 2k2 do not play XI. KOFXII had some play early on, but now it too sees little play.
CvS2 was largely played by people who spent most of their time... on, well, CvS2 or 3S. Relatively few of the KOF players devoted much time to it.
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| Maou 1841th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "In praise of KOF" , posted Thu 22 Oct 06:28
quote:
Wow, I knew that SNK was popular in the regions, but I didn't know about KOF's popularity.
Actually, the Professor's comment reminds me, though, that in a way it's really KOF we have to thank for this being such an interesting, international board! Wasn't it the KOF-type news that brought a lot of non-Americans here originally back in the day? KOF's popularity in the Central and South Americas was always interesting to me, especially given how it pales in popularity next to Street Fighter in Japan and the US. I've barely played KOF myself, though Samurai Spirits was fun, but I believe that I have the game to thank for lending such vitality to this wonderful BBS in this curious little corner of the internet.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| Baines
249th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(10):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Thu 22 Oct 09:38
quote:
You guys are crazy. Who cares about property rights? SNK's games are SNK's games because SNK made them.
I like the Samurai Shodown characters. I'd like to see them return. After the most recent 3D game, I'd rather see someone other than SNK be responsible for it though. And it isn't just 3D. I have faith that a 2D SamSho game made by someone else probably wouldn't feel any less like a SamSho game than SS6 already managed.
It sure doesn't look like SNK will ever release another Fatal Fury, MOTW, or AOF regardless of their health. (I've said many times before that new sprites should have been introduced in an FF/MOTW game instead of KOF, where the task wouldn't have been overwhelming. But when it comes to fighters in modern day settings, SNK only sees KOF. And thus we got the half-finished KOF XII and its resulting backlash.)
On the other hand, SNK has run Metal Slug into the ground, only to repeatedly dig up its decaying corpse so that they could run it into the ground again and again. If we have to keep seeing Metal Slug games, it might almost be a breath of fresh air for SNK's name to not be attached to it.
And to be honest, SNK has been farming out its games for years anyway.
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| Spoon 1838th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(5):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Fri 23 Oct 03:36
quote:
next gen games are not just prettier PS2 games.
while in context this sentence makes sense and i get what you mean, i think it's kind of an unfair remark. Especially in a genre like fighting games that has very relative innovation, where games are rather prettier cps1/2/3/neogeo games(and sometimes it's very debatable that they are any prettier, but never mind). Does HD actually count beyond being prettier? Is resolution the only thing that matter at all?
There actually are.
Browser-based games are no new thing, but their superior integration into social networking portals is a big thing. The core gameplay of fighting games tends to change by iterations rather than by revolutions, but all the elements that surround the playing of the game, especially the social ones, have room for significant improvement.
For instance, a simple thing might be making training mode something you can play online with another person (rather than just versus mode). A more advanced thing would be to allow people to spectate that. A yet more advanced thing would be to allow the people that start that to designate one or two people in the room as "teachers", who in voice chat have the ability to squelch people who are not teachers. Yet more on top of that would be the ability to record training sessions: both the inputs, and the chat audio/text. Yet another step would be the ability to put these online in a manner that is integrated with the game (sure you can hit up youtube with the PS3 which has lots of tutorial videos, but that's not exactly integrated). And so on. Think about this: with the PS2, the HDD was wholly optional while all PS3s come with an HDD. Dealing with the possibility of not having an HDD is no longer an issue for PS3 developers, and features that make extensive use of large, writeable storage are now much more viable (though I have a feeling that trying to encode HD video capture of a game on your PS3 while playing that game on the same PS3 is going to be a bit more than the PS3 can handle).
When we think of "next-gen", we should think of more than just the graphics or the core gameplay. How to keep people involved with your game even when they are not playing it is a great question, with tons of answers. Sometimes it's as simple as having a score ticker you can check on to see how your favourite team/player/whatever is doing in the rankings. How about designating a spectator console to capture amd broadcast a game through a web portal so that when a big event or tournament is happening online, people who don't have access to a console can watch it? And so on. The possibilities are endless!
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| Iron D 3319th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(8):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Fri 23 Oct 08:38
Spoon speaks truth folks! Hell, the very addition of online play is what is revitalizing the fighting scene in the current generation as is. The only thing that would expand it further is increasing how much current-gen technology is being integrated.
But on the other hand, I think all of this focus on online features is making developers forget about the 1P experience. Yes, KoF XII is criticized heavily for the shitty online capability, but in my opinion the lack of any extra kinds of modes is the bigger deficiency here.
In fact, SNK has ALWAYS been lacking in this area. If you don't have friends to play with (none of my closest friends are big fighting game players) there has to be something (besides online) to deepen the experience. Things like World Tour modes, really deep training modes that actually teach you how to play the game instead of just how to do specials and combo, deep story modes, mission modes, art galleries complete with character profiles, etc...stuff like that.
Namco has always been the best in this area; Tekkens and Soul Blade/Caliburs rarely come without extra modes like these (although they're better integrated in some cases than others), and Cap has done a great job sometimes (see SFA3 home versions) and not so great a job with others (home 3S really didn't have any fun extras). But when has SNK really shined in this area? They put the occasional art gallery in, and they actually have put in mission modes in the most recent KoFs, but I've still felt their home ports were still sort of lacking.
Er.....
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| Amakusa 827th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(9):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Fri 23 Oct 14:32
quote:
But on the other hand, I think all of this focus on online features is making developers forget about the 1P experience. Yes, KoF XII is criticized heavily for the shitty online capability, but in my opinion the lack of any extra kinds of modes is the bigger deficiency here.
In fact, SNK has ALWAYS been lacking in this area. If you don't have friends to play with (none of my closest friends are big fighting game players) there has to be something (besides online) to deepen the experience. Things like World Tour modes, really deep training modes that actually teach you how to play the game instead of just how to do specials and combo, deep story modes, mission modes, art galleries complete with character profiles, etc...stuff like that.
Namco has always been the best in this area; Tekkens and Soul Blade/Caliburs rarely come without extra modes like these (although they're better integrated in some cases than others), and Cap has done a great job sometimes (see SFA3 home versions) and not so great a job with others (home 3S really didn't have any fun extras). But when has SNK really shined in this area? They put the occasional art gallery in, and they actually have put in mission modes in the most recent KoFs, but I've still felt their home ports were still sort of lacking.
I hated Soul Calibur's challenge modes. I never bought a home version of Tekken so I can't say.
On the other hand, KOF R-2 for the NGPC had this silly side mode where you take one fighter and collect special abilities that either raise certain stacks or made all your attacks unblockable to giving your character Orochi's godbeam. I wasted so much time on that and even helped fill out the list of skills back in the day.
If they had something even as simple as that in a non-handheld game.
I found Kagami's sword in a junk yard.
I will rule the world and find that truly good cup of coffee.
"Dink-a-dink-a-dink-a-do."
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| Loona 276th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Fri 23 Oct 18:32
quote:
Customizable Robo-Ky almost made me not hate GG Isuka!
Ha! No, nothing would stop me from hating that game. But Robo-Ky Potemkin Buster is lovely.
Although I'm no big fan of the GG series, I did put money in Isuka for one thing they did right and shouldbe done moreoften, even if only as a special option - letting you play a fighting game with friends/significant others, not necessarily against them (which doesn't last that long if you're far more experienced in the genre, unless you dumb down your playing and make it less fun for yourself).
Fatal Fury 1 allowed this to some extent back in the day, and considering the character-swapping KoF had in 2003 and XI (while giving the option of traditional mode in the latter), how far-fetched would it be to have a mode that lets 2 out of 3 team characters on screen at once for a story/arcade/survival mode?
Maybe it'd work best in a new FF, I'm not sure...
Have there been any other fighting games that allowed simultaneous play on the same side?
I recall once playing like this in SFA3 over Kailerra with a friend, althouh I don't know how he activated that mode. There's also the Smash Brothers series, but is that all?...
I think it'd be worth investing in in this age of growing casual gaming, the option to play with instead o against, while making the default setting "hardcore-friendly"...
"Beat the machine that works in your head!" - Guano Apes "Open Your Eyes"
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| Iron D 3320th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Re(10):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Fri 23 Oct 22:24
quote:
Have there been any other fighting games that allowed simultaneous play on the same side?
I recall once playing like this in SFA3 over Kailerra with a friend, althouh I don't know how he activated that mode. There's also the Smash Brothers series, but is that all?...
Yeah, that's dramatic battle. You can have two on one side, two vs. one or any combination there-in.
quote:
It's so difficult to really make fun "home version extras" though.
I mean, Tekken Force isn't really that much fun (Even the Tekken 6 one left a bad taste in my mouth at TGS), Soul Calibur's challenge modes were just short matches with requirements and lots of loading, and Virtua Fighter's quest mode was just lots of matches with different AI (this is kind of the easiest solution in my mind).
The best "home version extra" is Tobal 2's quest mode, and it's kind of cheating, because it was never an arcade game anyway.
quote:
I hated Soul Calibur's challenge modes. I never bought a home version of Tekken so I can't say.
You two aren't arguing against extras for single player, are you? I had a blast with SC's challenge modes (for the most part...SC3's challenges could be a complete and utter pain in the ass).
Basically, I'd rather the options be there and be able to be ignored than not be there at all.
quote:
On the other hand, KOF R-2 for the NGPC had this silly side mode where you take one fighter and collect special abilities that either raise certain stacks or made all your attacks unblockable to giving your character Orochi's godbeam. I wasted so much time on that and even helped fill out the list of skills back in the day.
If they had something even as simple as that in a non-handheld game.
Something like this would be cool. Or even the bonus mini-games from SvC:MotM. Those were addictive and I spent as much time playing them as the actual game. Of course, the fact that you needed to play them to buy the extra supers for each character played into that, but still.
Er.....
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| Just a Person 1321th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):Re(10):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Fri 23 Oct 22:32
quote:
Have there been any other fighting games that allowed simultaneous play on the same side?
I recall once playing like this in SFA3 over Kailerra with a friend, althouh I don't know how he activated that mode.
There's the Dramatic Battle mode in SFA3. In Arcade, you can play it by holding the three kick buttons before pressing Start in the title screen. In the home versions, it is available from the start in most of the consoles; the exception, I think, was the PSX version, which demanded the player beat Arcade Mode in the hardest difficulty and would initially allow to play it only as Ryu & Ken or Juli & Juni (beating Dramatic Battle with both teams would allow the player to choose his own team).
It is a fun mode, but unfortunately too short and following the same fight order at least in the earlier versions (vs. Adon, vs. Akuma, vs. Balrog, vs. Vega, vs. Sagat and finally vs. Shin M.Bison). Maybe the Dreamcast version and PSP version didn't have this limitation, I don't know.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Burning Ranger 1617th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "..." , posted Sat 24 Oct 07:59
What is all this talk of "extras" in fighting games? I think the idea that games *need* "extras" is just a cop-out preventing companies delivering a good main-game experience.
Now this is just me talking, but when I play a fighting game, or any game for that matter, I base my opinions on main-game experience. The criteria on how we measure this experience will no doubt differ from player to player. For me, it's a combination of gameplay, graphics, sound, presentation and most importantly, feel. And by feel, I mean the ability of a game to engage my attention. Similar to how a film engages me as a viewer. It's a mixture of different elements that makes a game whole.
I bring all this up because in my book, this is where SNK has been failing for a long time now, especially when it comes to its fighting games (see exception). For example, KOF98 was more engaging to me than KOF02, and certainly more than KOF XII. And none of these games had fancy *extras*
Now sure, extras can help (I've even said that it would probably have made KOF XII a decent purchase), but in my mind, if any company can't deliver on a solid gaming experience, then you can't expect them to turn out solid product.
Now the exception: Metal Slug.
Advanced Cybernetic Organism "Burning Ranger"
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| Spoon 1839th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(1):..." , posted Sat 24 Oct 09:23
quote:
What is all this talk of "extras" in fighting games? I think the idea that games *need* "extras" is just a cop-out preventing companies delivering a good main-game experience.
Now this is just me talking, but when I play a fighting game, or any game for that matter, I base my opinions on main-game experience. The criteria on how we measure this experience will no doubt differ from player to player. For me, it's a combination of gameplay, graphics, sound, presentation and most importantly, feel. And by feel, I mean the ability of a game to engage my attention. Similar to how a film engages me as a viewer. It's a mixture of different elements that makes a game whole.
I bring all this up because in my book, this is where SNK has been failing for a long time now, especially when it comes to its fighting games (see exception). For example, KOF98 was more engaging to me than KOF02, and certainly more than KOF XII. And none of these games had fancy *extras*
Now sure, extras can help (I've even said that it would probably have made KOF XII a decent purchase), but in my mind, if any company can't deliver on a solid gaming experience, then you can't expect them to turn out solid product.
Now the exception: Metal Slug.
I think that what they really need to spend their time, money, and thought on is neither extras nor "main gameplay".
They need to put all that into marketing.
Nothing helps finding people to play with than a game that people actually have heard of and gotten a copy of!
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| Fuu
3th Post
New Customer
| "Re(4):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Sat 24 Oct 16:43
I am surprised so many people here would concentrate on extras, they can be nice divertissments sure, but when it comes to fighting games the 1p "experience" revolves mostly around learning/abusing the patterns of bad AI. Just do that 3rd srk Ken, i'll show you who is the boss!
So Namco makes fun extras right? After getting a casual friend into playing Tekken4, i bought T5 thinking he'd like to play that. He either got bored or whatever, and he did not. So disheartened, i started toying around with the 1p game. There was this mode that simulated an arcade, and you'd fight AI opponents that apparently were ghosts of actual players iirc. After playing for an hour or so, i realized the CPU would never, ever guard a df+punch move, from any characters. After testing this for a bit, it goes without saying that i stopped playing that extra mode altogether, and actually i never touched another Tekken since but for other reasons.
I'm sure there are games with better AI than T5, but with a modicum of competency, playing against the cpu means playing a gimped game that lacks what makes the actual experience interesting at all.
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| Iron D 3322th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Sat 24 Oct 18:34
quote:
I am surprised so many people here would concentrate on extras, they can be nice divertissments sure, but when it comes to fighting games the 1p "experience" revolves mostly around learning/abusing the patterns of bad AI. Just do that 3rd srk Ken, i'll show you who is the boss!
So Namco makes fun extras right? After getting a casual friend into playing Tekken4, i bought T5 thinking he'd like to play that. He either got bored or whatever, and he did not. So disheartened, i started toying around with the 1p game. There was this mode that simulated an arcade, and you'd fight AI opponents that apparently were ghosts of actual players iirc. After playing for an hour or so, i realized the CPU would never, ever guard a df+punch move, from any characters. After testing this for a bit, it goes without saying that i stopped playing that extra mode altogether, and actually i never touched another Tekken since but for other reasons.
I'm sure there are games with better AI than T5, but with a modicum of competency, playing against the cpu means playing a gimped game that lacks what makes the actual experience interesting at all.
So for people like you, there is always the option of simply ignoring the extras. No one is forcing you to play them.
For folks like me, I do believe that versus play is the meat and potatoes of most (if not all) fighting games, but I also love to chill and just play through an arcade mode or something to take a break from continuous versus play.
Despite the apparent negative experiences some Cafeers have had with single player modes, there is a reason why one of the most commonly cited problems with KoFXII is that it's lacking in extra modes.
Er.....
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| Pollyanna 2792th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Sat 24 Oct 18:45
I like extra modes in 3D fighters because the movelists are so bothersome to remember and non-intuitive that I need a way to make myself comfortable with the characters. Unlocking extra costumes and accessories is also a fun plus that gives you motivation to play the extra modes, but doesn't force you into it if you want to jump straight into Vs.
This is usually a non-issue with 2D fighters (for me at least), though I did enjoy the combo training mode in SF4. Unlocking icons, titles and colors was kind of fun and gave me some motivation to play the game alone. Of course, I spent most of my time playing Vs online, but I can't deny that I got a kick out of the single player experience as well.
I most certainly agree that the vs experience should be the backbone of any fighter, but it is nice to have a way to enjoy the game on your own sometime. Although some AI can give a satisfying experience (VF5), none can really replicate playing against another human...so I think "extra" sort of modes that explore the game in a different way are the best solution.
These days, I feel like a solid online experience is most important, though...and that's where KOF XII really let me down.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| chazumaru 680th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "(Do not) Bet (your life) on SNKP's future" , posted Sun 25 Oct 08:09:
If I remember their latest IR report correctly, SNKP's operating income was positive last year (in simpler terms, that means they did not lose money).
SNKP is probably screwed for several reasons, most of them linked to who they got in business with, who they got in bad terms with and who they might or might not have thrown out of a taxi one night. However, via its arcade/pachinko operations, SNKP is also a very useful front for some of their investors. This is why I think the company will stay afloat for a few years no matter what. This is the magic of offer and demand: the bad economy means less and less companies can offer some useful services that SNK can provide, especially as a company set in the Osaka area. As long as such specific services are needed (which is forever) and as long as SNKP can provide these services (this is more questionable), the company will stay around.
But I guess this is not our true concern. What we all wonder is whether SNKP will remain a game company, either as a consumer game publisher and/or an arcade game developer. This is much less certain.
In general, the marvel of SNK's business was that it offered a great product (MVS) with popular software (fighting games) for a thriving market (game centers). Furthermore, they expanded their quality product by tapping into a healthy secondary market (Neo Geo Home console) and finding a niche there from the early to mid-Nineties.
However, they did not anticipate the turnaround correctly. Now, let's forget for a minute that the arcade business crashed. Even in an alternative universe of thriving game centers, I think SNKP would have still struggled at the turn of the century.
They did not provide a correct hardware replacement which could have offered the same advantages as MVS (price, catalogue, maintenance and versatility) to arcade operators. Although they are often blamed for missing the jump to 3D, I would argue that it was possibly difficult for them to fight with powerhouses such Sega and Namco on that field. On the other hand, their huge mistake was that they did not jump on the new bandwagon: Bemani-type games. They also ran out of luck as Atlus got the idea of Purikura. This is the kind of business expansion they needed to survive in the changing game center economy, rather than games. Still, that does not excuse the miss on music games. Oh and that is not 100% SNK's fault but they did not manage to protect MVS from piracy efficiently.
Now consider that both the arcade and pachinko businesses are crashing down, and SNKP's core business is in deep trouble.
The business expansion was miserable as well (outside of pachinko, but that one is more related to SNK's investors than anything else). From 1998 on, SNK never really went anywhere with the consumer game business. As a publisher, they heavily burnt their wings on the Sacnoth fiasco (1999) and probably could not afford PS2 development kits for a while. As a hardware maker, they tried something interesting with the Neo Geo Pocket: to produce a young adult / otaku oriented handheld at the moment the Game Boy became a craze among kids again (thanks to Pokémon). I do not think the Game Boy Color was such a big threat for them because SNK had probably planned that they would never compete with Nintendo directly.
However, where they got really unlucky is with the arrival of the Wonderswan as a more proper alternative to the newly released Game Boy Color. The Wonderswan had a more original concept than NGP: it could brag its cheap price, versatile screen, insane battery life or focus on cellphone connections for "online" multiplayer and data exchange. More importantly, the Wonderswan benefited from much higher profile support such as licenses from Bandai and Squaresoft (and the sneaky support of Sony to pester Nintendo). As a result, SNK got even more competition than planned. Not only did they have to swallow the newly released Game Boy Color, they also had to face a (much richer) challenger which was openly going for the N°2 spot by targeting the same young adult gamers that SNK wanted.
Please remember that following these two misadventures and the demise of their main business, SNK effectively DIED. They had failed. They were not making any business anymore. There is a little "P" in SNKP to remind us of that. The full story of how that "P" came to the world and snatched SNK back from Aruze is left to rumor mills and surreal anecdotes at business dinners.
What is certain is that what SNK was doing from 1998 to 2000 was as nice for us gamers as it was terrible for their finances. There is absolutely no way they will come back to that. It would be insane, even by their standards.
So when you consider of the easy money made over the years by licensing their franchises on other consoles, you can understand why SNK have mostly relied on ports then re-releases/remakes then compilations (and now compilations of compilations) of their Neo Geo games. Given how cheap this has been over the years (first through extremely budget-efficient contracted studios, now thanks to the magic of emulators and Chinese developpers), SNKP is guaranteed a nice return on investment even though it devalues their franchises and the money coming back is slimmer each time.
Fortunately for them, the side business of cellphone games (which might or might not have been profitable for SNK, I have no idea, but it was probably quite inexpensive anyway) gave them the infrastructure for developing Nintendo DS games at the moment it boomed. Yet with the exception of the first Majô Shinpan, most sales have been mere blips in the sales charts radar.
So in a nutshell, my belief is that SNKP will never come back to the production value, design etiquette and editorial choices that made them popular among us. As Toxico mentioned, most of the staff from their golden age already left anyway (by the way many of them left for Dimps, the developer of Street Fighter IV).
Even without considering the publisher's legacy, the current SNK(P) is not properly equipped to thrive in the current (very tough) consumer market. But do they really need to be? I am not so sure. I would have preferred if they had managed a proper conversion to the realities of the 21st century's market but hey, not anyone can be Hudson.
That also mean we cannot expect much from them. KOF12 was an anomaly, to such a degree that they were forced to release the game unfinished in order to keep on financing the production of the final game which, if it ever comes out, will probably be called KOF13. SNKP has no business (in all senses of the word) making such games now. It is sad but gamers should come to terms with this reality.
Business-wise, SNKP are better off with heir current lazy policy of cashing in on ROM compilations, IP licensing and downloadable contents while taking small risks with cheap DS projects that will probably bomb but never cost too much in the first place.
And yes the next lazy safe step is definitely the Valis route, sadly.
IT'S THE BLACK PUDDING!
[this message was edited by chazumaru on Sun 25 Oct 08:11] |
| Maese 535th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(2):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Sun 25 Oct 09:49
quote:
When taken to its extreme conclusion, polygons clumped together to form vaugely humanoid blobs could easily be used to create the ulitmate straight edge fighting game. Imagine how low the overhead on that game would be and how easy it would be to update!
When I read this I was just about making some smartass comment like "hey, that's Virtua Fighter for you!", but ol' Ishmael beat me to it in his own post.
Anyway, about extras and whatnot.
I won't argue that a solid-rock gameplay is a must for any fighter, but the wrapping IS important as well. I know I'm just a weirdo, but I tend to like the whole paraphernalia surrounding a game, the "world" that game recreates, more than the game itself. Neither am I a big fan of vs playing, probably just because I'm an antisocial guy who does not tolerate the company of other human beings all too well, but the fact that most of my friends are either gods of the joystick or total noobs regarding videogames doesn't help. I can't possibly compete with the formers nor have fun with the latters. Hence, only the one-player experience is left for me to enjoy. And all those background stories, plots and subplots, character designs, etc. definitely add a lot to that experience. It's not only about extra stuff.
Sure, if the gameplay is really good then I'll have more than enough with just a bare-bones arcade mode. I've played SF2 or Tekken 1 to death just beacuse I loved them with a passion. But I do appreciate when developers try to bring something new and intertesting. Soul Edge's quest mode comes to mind.
I haven't tried KOFXII yet, but I find its approach a bit offensive. Sure as hell it's gorgeous to look at, and perhaps it plays as good as it looks (I don't know). But come on, a game with not even a final boss? With no story whatsoever? Where's your respect for the consumer, SNK? It would be bad enough for any fighter, but this seems specially painful in KOF's case. KOF has always distinguished itself for its care and love for details. A KOF in a poor wrapping is not a KOF for me.
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| Maese 538th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(2):Re(10):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Sun 25 Oct 11:15
quote:
As for Soul Calibur, I've always felt that Namco fumbled the ball with its quest mode. They had a pretty decent way of telling a fuller version of each game's story mode, but never followed on its potential. You had the characters moving around the world, with bits of story between each encounter, and even excuses for special battle situations. But instead of making it a truer story mode, Namco just used it to tell increasingly alternate world scenarios and became increasingly focused on battle gimmicks.
You are totally right. That's why I mentioned the original Soul Edge's quest mode, and not the ones from Soul Calibur onwards. In Soul Edge, the quest mode did actually tell the tale of each character in a more or less comprehensive way, while adding some diversity from the regular arcade mode with some alternative fighting scenarios (which also allowed to learn some useful tricks to improve your gameplay). Such approach really adds depth to the whole game. It really compelled you to finish it with each and every character, not just to get all their weapons, but to know more about them and their world as well. I loved it.
But Soul Calibur onwards, quest modes always felt like a chore: way too long, tedious for the most part, and the character's implications were random at best. It did not matter whether you choose Voldo or Seung Mina, the quest was all the same. A nice extra, sure, with some good stuff on it too, but a wasted opportunity all the way. Well, at least Namco was willing to try.
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| nobinobita 644th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(2):Re(10):(Do not) Bet (your life) on SNKP" , posted Thu 29 Oct 13:47:
quote:
I do encourage you to learn French, it is a great language and French people are getting worse at at it so we need help from the outside to raise the bar.
+ I don't know if this is well known overseas but foreigners speaking French with their foreign accent sound extremely hot and can get us in bed easily.
Cooool. I will start practicing my Arthur Rimbaud poems then.
quote:
Back on topic; I wonder SnkP will try 3D after Skystage? And would they leave KOF/SS/MS label on the desk at least for a while (or for just one title), if they will work on 3D games?
Should they? Would they? Could they?
I think SNK is in a similar position as Marvel Comics were a while back, just on a smaller scale. They got a ton of great original IP, something most companies would kill for. KIIILLLLL!!!
They just don't know how to make money from them. At least not in the big picture it would seem.
SNKs cast of characters may not be as widely recognized as Nintendo's or Capcom's, but they still have greater brand recognition and loyalty than most other companies who put far more money into advertising than they do. So they can keep licensing little things out here and there, but they'll also have to do things to keep the IPs alive. This is one good reason for them to continue making games (much like why Marvel continues to make comics even though they're not very profitable).
They could also follow Capcom's lead and get some sort of Udon-like operation going; get a bunch of hardcore fans to make official fan fictions in different medias to keep your IP alive among your most ardent fans. They have a good chance to grow their fanbase as well, since they have so many characters that are so instantly appealing. I'll bet 75% of people who cosplay as Capcom or SNK characters don't really play the fighting games.
I think with some proper leadership they can really pull through and be profitable and continue to make money from a loyal fan base. Although this may entail them being bought out by a larger company much like how Marvel is now owned by Disney.
Maybe SNK will just concentrate on Pachinko from now on (like Chazumaru said, this is the safe, logical thing for them to do), but something ought to happen w/the ownership of all those great franchises. They can't just fizzle out into obscurity. That'd be such a shame (and a lost opportunity to make lots of $$$).
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Thu 29 Oct 14:22] |
| Loona 278th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(3):Re(10):(Do not) Bet (your life) on SNKP" , posted Fri 30 Oct 19:33
quote:
Back on topic; I wonder SnkP will try 3D after Skystage? And would they leave KOF/SS/MS label on the desk at least for a while (or for just one title), if they will work on 3D games?
Should they? Would they? Could they?
The MI series showed they can handle 3D decently, but they dropped that now, and I wonder if that disposal included some of the staff working on the title - they can't afford to lose people who don't rely on 2D exclusively if they want to keep a foothold in the business...
Stuff comes to mind, like a hypothetical FPS or military tactics games featuring Ikari characters and whatnot, but this is the company that released a card game when they reached an agreement with Capcom - I like their ability to surprise and hope they still have it, as long as they don't shoot themselves in the foot with it (I'm not really that much into shmups to tell if Skystage is anything worthwhile...)
quote:
I think SNK is in a similar position as Marvel Comics were a while back, just on a smaller scale. They got a ton of great original IP, something most companies would kill for. KIIILLLLL!!!
And outside the game it's being wasted on pachinko, bad Hong Kong comics and a certain movie that won't exactly help the IP...
quote:
They just don't know how to make money from them. At least not in the big picture it would seem.
SNKs cast of characters may not be as widely recognized as Nintendo's or Capcom's, but they still have greater brand recognition and loyalty than most other companies who put far more money into advertising than they do. So they can keep licensing little things out here and there, but they'll also have to do things to keep the IPs alive. This is one good reason for them to continue making games (much like why Marvel continues to make comics even though they're not very profitable).
They could also follow Capcom's lead and get some sort of Udon-like operation going; get a bunch of hardcore fans to make official fan fictions in different medias to keep your IP alive among your most ardent fans. They have a good chance to grow their fanbase as well, since they have so many characters that are so instantly appealing. I'll bet 75% of people who cosplay as Capcom or SNK characters don't really play the fighting games.
I think with some proper leadership they can really pull through and be profitable and continue to make money from a loyal fan base. Although this may entail them being bought out by a larger company much like how Marvel is now owned by Disney.
Maybe SNK will just concentrate on Pachinko from now on (like Chazumaru said, this is the safe, logical thing for them to do), but something ought to happen w/the ownership of all those great franchises. They can't just fizzle out into obscurity. That'd be such a shame (and a lost opportunity to make lots of $$$).
I like the idea of something Udon-like, bu even with an IP as strong as SF, Udon doesn't seem to be profiting all that much from that - then again their primary market seems to be the US, and SNK is stronger just about everywhere else (Asia, latin America, arabic countries/middle east, some of Europe?).
The right medium would have to be found that can reach all those areas and languages...
Something like an official webcomic or KoF Another Day-like animation project that sets the canon straight and gets released and translated simultaneously could work, as I don't see something more reliant on physical media by default to help their cause.
Then again, it took years for them to add KoF XI characters to the KoF anniversary site, and I think the english version of the KoF MI2 site is still missing a few character profiles or backstories...
Focusing a bit outside Japan on the little things would be a good start.
"Beat the machine that works in your head!" - Guano Apes "Open Your Eyes"
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| nobinobita 645th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(4):Re(10):(Do not) Bet (your life) on SNKP" , posted Fri 30 Oct 23:36
quote:
I like the idea of something Udon-like, bu even with an IP as strong as SF, Udon doesn't seem to be profiting all that much from that - then again their primary market seems to be the US, and SNK is stronger just about everywhere else (Asia, latin America, arabic countries/middle east, some of Europe?).
Udon probably isn't very profitable, and Capcom probably makes very little money from them directly, but the important thing is that Udon keeps Capcom's IP alive in the minds of fans. Street Fighter IV may not have come out without Udon keeping the flame burning and showing Capcom Japan that the US does indeed care for Street Fighter. Udon bears all the risk in the relationship while Capcom can sit back, enjoy the better than free advertisement and occasionally collect some royalties. It's this kind of thinking that keeps Capcom ahead of other Japanese companies trying to compete in the US.
quote:
Focusing a bit outside Japan on the little things would be a good start.
It would be great if SNK could throw a bone to all their fans in Latin America and the rest of Asia. There's money to be made there! It's too bad they're so scared of piracy and can't think of alternative ways to make a profit.
There's alot of talk these days about Japanese game companies falling behind in the "next gen". I truly believe they are falling behind, not in gameplay, but in marketing.
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| Loona 280th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):(Do not) Bet (your life) on SNKP" , posted Mon 2 Nov 23:55
quote:
Udon probably isn't very profitable, and Capcom probably makes very little money from them directly, but the important thing is that Udon keeps Capcom's IP alive in the minds of fans. Street Fighter IV may not have come out without Udon keeping the flame burning and showing Capcom Japan that the US does indeed care for Street Fighter. Udon bears all the risk in the relationship while Capcom can sit back, enjoy the better than free advertisement and occasionally collect some royalties. It's this kind of thinking that keeps Capcom ahead of other Japanese companies trying to compete in the US.
That kind of risk is the sad thing though, and it's not like the ones who are taking it are doing that great of a job - the Hong Kong comics can get silly sometimes, especially when they take major liberties with the story (then again, there are cases like the SvC one that referred things like the card fighters characters...), and not the movie - which now has site online:
http://www.kofthemovie.com/
Nice new logo, almost makes me hopeful for salvageable material in there.
If a more fan-friendly company would take up the franchise, it's not like there'd be a lack of stories to work with - I recall this hastily-written post of mine years ago where the far-fetched possibility of Udon taking on SNK staff came up:
http://www.snk-capcom.com/forums/showpost.php?p=215600&postcount=103
Man, I'll almost tempted to try the NaNoWriMo thing for a possible script, if I could only pry myself awa from FFXI and Dissidia long enough to get something done.
"Beat the machine that works in your head!" - Guano Apes "Open Your Eyes"
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| Grave 1244th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(8):Re(10):(Do not) Bet (your life) on SNKP" , posted Tue 3 Nov 19:25
Hey, I never said Falcoon spraying his shit all over KOF characters was a good thing... but ST HDR is a sin I cannot forgive. It's not someone came along and said, "Hey guys, from now on Maximum Impact is the new KOF98. This what you will play instead!"
Still, it's apples and oranges. The guy's MI work is too damn silly for me to totally hate on. It's full of humor and amusing in-jokes. He's not inept, he's just a big goof. It'd be like screaming at a golden retriever. Whereas I look as the midgets and the giants ride by on their bicycles in Chun Li's stage in HDR and I watch Balrog magically change size... grrrr.
Also, I tried watching one of those things they were airing on the Sci Fi Channel, excuse me, Syfy or whatever the fuck, which are basically comic pages that wiggle around a little while someone attempts to dramatically tell SF backstory. I wanted to somehow stab everyone at Capcom, Udon and myself at the same time. I think I'd run out of hands.
While I am prone to plenty of hyperbole and nonsense, when I say that I wish everyone in the industry would turn their backs on Udon and Backbone forever, I really do mean it.
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Ono and the Fanboy spirit.
"Re(5):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Fri 16 Oct 08:02
"Re(3):Bets on SNKP's future" , posted Tue 20 Oct 12:06
"Re(1):K of 98 UM Hero" , posted Thu 26 Nov 11:15
