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| nobinobita 617th Post
 
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|  "Re(3):Input required" , posted Fri 25 Sep 19:20
quote:
I agree. Just because he has dark skin shouldn't automatically make him black. Of course that's just my opinion, so who knows what capcom intended. Maybe Akuma/Gouki is black too then lol.
You're oppinion is important though.
This is a great topic, it's given me alot to think about.
For instance, I was hasty to respond to the poll because I assumed that Dudley was African descent, and I kind of assumed that the implication for him not being black is because he wasn't drawn "black enough". I've heard people make this argument all the time, that a character doesn't look "insert race" enough. So I was bringing that experience to the table and trying to say "hey, Black people can look like Dudley (who is cool and unstereotypical looking)."
But of course in doing so I was ignoring the possibility that Dudley could be Middle Eastern or Indian or anything else, which he could be if you just go on looks. The reason I think he's black is because of his profession. He's an old timey gentleman boxer, so my association with that kind of boxing is filled with only black and white boxers (like George Godfrey as I mentioned earlier). But he could definitely be another race. And it's not just cos he's dark skinned. I've met plenty of Chinese people that are darker than Dudley.
Going against my initial statement (he's OBVIOUSLY BLACK DAMMIT), I can see where other people are coming from (my eyes are open! @__@). Race is never obvious. For instance, most people are surprised to learn that Freddie Mercury was ethnically Persian (and born in Zanzibar to Persian/Indian parents).
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| Hagen de Merak 1019th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
 
| "Re(4):Input required" , posted Sat 26 Sep 04:32
quote:
You're oppinion is important though.
This is a great topic, it's given me alot to think about.
For instance, I was hasty to respond to the poll because I assumed that Dudley was African descent, and I kind of assumed that the implication for him not being black is because he wasn't drawn "black enough". I've heard people make this argument all the time, that a character doesn't look "insert race" enough. So I was bringing that experience to the table and trying to say "hey, Black people can look like Dudley (who is cool and unstereotypical looking)."
But of course in doing so I was ignoring the possibility that Dudley could be Middle Eastern or Indian or anything else, which he could be if you just go on looks. The reason I think he's black is because of his profession. He's an old timey gentleman boxer, so my association with that kind of boxing is filled with only black and white boxers (like George Godfrey as I mentioned earlier). But he could definitely be another race. And it's not just cos he's dark skinned. I've met plenty of Chinese people that are darker than Dudley.
Going against my initial statement (he's OBVIOUSLY BLACK DAMMIT), I can see where other people are coming from (my eyes are open! @__@). Race is never obvious. For instance, most people are surprised to learn that Freddie Mercury was ethnically Persian (and born in Zanzibar to Persian/Indian parents).
It's interesting to see other peoples perception, though I'm clearly in the minority, he's probably black then. From my point of view, it wasn't that he didn't look stereotypical, just the way they drew him. This guy for example isn't stereotypical at all, but it's clear he's black (to me at least, and thats probably another thread lol). But for me Dudley's appearance and the way he was drawn resembles this guy more.
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| kofoguz 758th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(5):Input required" , posted Sat 26 Sep 09:52
quote:
I've always thought that Dudley wasn't black, simply because his facial features don't really fit the typical African profile, stereotypical as that sounds.
Depending on the palette you pick, I might be inclined to think that he's even of TURKISH descent. Yogurt drinks in the face in 5... 4...
I've honestly seen and met a lot more Indian people than I have black/African people (welcome to British Columbia), so the possibility that Dudley's of Indian descent doesn't seem at all impossible to me. Something about Dudley didn't seem "white" to me (because I'm SUCH a good judge of what white people are like...), though.
LOL, you wanna see my favourite drink?
Joke aside, You're right, you can see someone looks like Dudley in this country. I wouldnt be surprised if I see one. On the other hand this country is so rich descent/color wise I think pretty much you can find any type here.
He could be from africa ( arab descent) or from asia (indian, pakstani, etc... descent).
A similar case happened in scrubs. Everyone confuse Carla (nurse) as a black woman and she says "I'm not black, I'm Dominican".
Its not like every blond is from sweden/switzerland, you know.
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| HAYATO 943th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Input this!!" , posted Sat 26 Sep 10:28
As of recently, I've become a strong supporter of the "Dudley's Indian origins" theory. Albeit having dark skin, his features don't look like the average african/afroamerican's (prominent chin, long and narrow nose bridge, straight hair and blue eyes). On the contrary, these features aren't far from those belonging to some ethnic groups of India and Pakistan (such as the natives from Kashmir amongst whom, blue eyes is a common trait).
Plus, given the fact that Dudley's a British citizen and taking into account his penchant for the Victorian lifestyle (probably instilled into him by his parents), I'd dare to say he is the offspring of a Caucasian-Indian multiethnic relationship (something quite likely, since the British ruled large parts of eastern India for a long time).
According to Dudley's father's looks one may say that, whatever was his ethnicity, his racial features prevailed in his son's genetic heritage. Upon further examination of the bust, one should infer that he was some kind of noble or high rank military. Thus said, the only (or at least the easiest) way to attain British nationality for a foreing man in early/mid 20th century was through marriage with a British subject...
My bet: Dudley's father was a native from Kashmir who entered the British Indian Army as a chance to make a living. In spite of being a mere sepoy (infantry private) he was brave and bold, so he quickly made his way up the military ranks. By the start of WWII he had become a reputed VCO (probably a Subedar), what allowed him to fit into the high society of the colonial territories. Then, he met a young british dame, daughter of some rich, open minded businessman/ aristocrat and got married. After being captured by the Japanese in Malaya and suffering severe hardships in a concentration camp of New Guinea, Dudley's father survived until he was liberated by Australian forces circa 1945. Then, due to the physical sequels of his captivity period, he was forced into retirement from the military and then returned to England with his wife, longing for a better live.
Assaulted by nightmares and remorse for what accounted on his military life, he found in gardening and driving the ways he needed to soothe his internal pain. More than a decade later, almost as a public show of the couple's renewed love, a heir was born...
...And that, folks, is why Dudley's so fond of his classy, elitist and flamboyant Victorian lifestyle!!!
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| Oroch 1077th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(1):Input this!!" , posted Sat 26 Sep 11:20
quote:
As of recently, I've become a strong supporter of the "Dudley's Indian origins" theory. Albeit having dark skin, his features don't look like the average african/afroamerican's (prominent chin, long and narrow nose bridge, straight hair and blue eyes). On the contrary, these features aren't far from those belonging to some ethnic groups of India and Pakistan (such as the natives from Kashmir amongst whom, blue eyes is a common trait).
Plus, given the fact that Dudley's a British citizen and taking into account his penchant for the Victorian lifestyle (probably instilled into him by his parents), I'd dare to say he is the offspring of a Caucasian-Indian multiethnic relationship (something quite likely, since the British ruled large parts of eastern India for a long time).
According to Dudley's father's looks one may say that, whatever was his ethnicity, his racial features prevailed in his son's genetic heritage. Upon further examination of the bust, one should infer that he was some kind of noble or high rank military. Thus said, the only (or at least the easiest) way to attain British nationality for a foreing man in early/mid 20th century was through marriage with a British subject...
My bet: Dudley's father was a native from Kashmir who entered the British Indian Army as a chance to make a living. In spite of being a mere sepoy (infantry private) he was brave and bold, so he quickly made his way up the military ranks. By the start of WWII he had become a reputed VCO (probably a Subedar), what allowed him to fit into the high society of the colonial territories. Then, he met a young british dame, daughter of some rich, open minded businessman/ aristocrat and got married. After being captured by the Japanese in Malaya and suffering severe hardships in a concentration camp of New Guinea, Dudley's father survived until he was liberated by Australian forces circa 1945. Then, due to the physical sequels of his captivity period, he was forced into retirement from the military and then returned to England with his wife, longing for a better live.
Assaulted by nightmares and remorse for what accounted on his military life, he found in gardening and driving the ways he needed to soothe his internal pain. More than a decade later, almost as a public show of the couple's renewed love, a heir was born...
...And that, folks, is why Dudley's so fond of his classy, elitist and flamboyant Victorian lifestyle!!!
nas paya veseth(i'm horrible at my kashmiri) :(
hes too dark to be kashmiri or part, unless his mom was....black! or south indian!
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| Spoon 1809th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
  
   
| "Re(7):Input required" , posted Sat 26 Sep 15:34
quote:
Chunli reminds me of many pretty Chinese girls I've met
I think Chun Li's face looks more Chinese in the opening cinematic where she is fighting Viper than Chun Li ever has in any game before it, but I'd need more time to dig up the old images I'd be thinking about.
Otherwise Chun Li to me has always looked Asian in a relatively generic sense. Imagine if Capcom suddenly told you that Yun and Yang were not actually Chinese guys, but were actually Japanese guys who happen to know Chinese kung fu, would you be able to say no just based on how they look in SF3? I'd say no.
Now, one thing that's funny is that if you've lived around as many Chinese, Korean, and Japanese people as people in Vancouver/Richmond do, there are some funny things to notice. Lots of people can accurately identify girls that they have never met before as Korean, even though there are quite a large variety of Korean faces. Many can cite things like the length of their face, the angle and narrowness of their eyes, etc. though there are plenty of Korean females that fit into very different facial profiles.
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| ONSLAUGHT 3858th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
 
| "Thanks" , posted Sat 26 Sep 16:01
Thanks everyone.
I was expecting more along the lines of Nobinobita's first post, but oh well.
Personally, I think we're reading too much into it (Dudley's father a soldier from Kashmir? really?). My take on this, is that Capcom wanted a really cool black guy, nothing more. Saying that he doesn't look like a "true" black because of his facial features is way too much. I mean, Dudley doesn't look "black enough" because he was created by a japanese dude with high emphasis (sp?) on an stylized look. Just look at Ryu, Makoto, Ibuki... do they look japanese to you? or are they descendants from some spaniards/argentineans/persians? What about Chun Li? and Yun/Yang? Do they look chinese to you as well? they look caucasian to me. Why are you trying to justify Dudley's "non black" looks, yet ignoring everyone else in the very exact game?
To me Dudley is a cool british black guy, just as Ryu is japanese and Chun Li chinese, nothing more.
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| Hagen de Merak 1021th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(1):Thanks" , posted Sat 26 Sep 18:09
quote:
What about Chun Li? and Yun/Yang? Do they look chinese to you as well? they look caucasian to me. Why are you trying to justify Dudley's "non black" looks, yet ignoring everyone else in the very exact game?
To me Dudley is a cool british black guy, just as Ryu is japanese and Chun Li chinese, nothing more.
What about them? Ever check out the manual, it says they are chinese/japanese. It tells us they're nationality, not they'rer race. For all we know Chun-li could be half cacausian or something but according to capcom her nationality is chinese. Let me give you an example, know who Salma Hayek is? She's Mexican right? what makes her MExican? well let's see, she was born in Mexico, and she was raised there. That's her nationality, therefore that makes her Mexican. Her race is an entirely different thing, shes not a descendant of the Mexicas (aztecs), Hayek is a Lebanese Last name. Her Father is Lebanese,and her mother is spanish. See what I'm getting it at? In Dudley's case, capcom doesn't tell us he's black, they tell us he's British. You're mixing his race/background with his nationality. As mentioned earlier, who knows, he might be black, but in my opinion (in my earlier post) the art style implicates otherwise.
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| Pollyanna 2762th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Thanks" , posted Sat 26 Sep 19:50
quote:
But OK, let's accept that the art style is telling you Dudley is not black, but from India or anywhere else for a while. What does the art style for Ryu tell you? If going by your logic, obviously he's not asian because he doesn't have asian features. Or what about Ibuki? I'm just curious.
What art are we talking about here? If we're comparing apples to apples, then it's Ikeno's 3rd Strike art. To me, both Ryu and Ibuki look decidedly asian. I can't see how you could mistake them for anything else. Even if they don't look exactly like "real asians", their features are deliberate enough. That's what I mean by "cue". The same "deliberate" features in Dudley's art are what's throwing people off, I think.
If you look at like...Kinu's old SF3 art, I don't think anyone would doubt that Dudley was a black guy. Akiman's gives me essentially the same feel. It wasn't until Ikeno's that I thought "wait, he is supposed to be black, right?"
I'm not arguing Dudley's race, I'm just arguing the argument, but I'm basing it on the assumption that it's Ikeno's art that's causing the argument in the first place.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| Maou 1802th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(5):Thanks" , posted Sat 26 Sep 22:50
quote:
I'm supporting the "Dudley is Cap's way of making up for Balrog's stereotypical appearance" take on things.
This thread does make me wonder: how many of you have actually met a lot of Black people? To some this question may sound ridiculous, but keep in mind that this is an international board, and there are some places in the world (and even within the U.S. itself) where there is little to no interaction with any Black people.
I mean, looking through this thread it almost seems like folks are saying that Black people NEVER look like Dudley does in his 3rd Strike portrait. Blacks come in all shapes and sizes, and it is not at all out of the question for a Black person to look like Dudley's 3rd Strike art.
Indeed, attacked Dudley weeps over our confusion.
IronD's right, though, and it's sort of like I was saying: even in real life, a lot of folks never think of a black Englishman (accentwise or dress) who certainly wouldn't go along with any archtypes we have for what a black person would "look like."
Actually, the info in the new Street Fighter artbooks might be able to tell us some things, too.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| nobinobita 620th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(1):Thanks" , posted Sun 27 Sep 06:29
quote:
Just look at Ryu, Makoto, Ibuki... do they look japanese to you? or are they descendants from some spaniards/argentineans/persians? What about Chun Li? and Yun/Yang? Do they look chinese to you as well? they look caucasian to me. Why are you trying to justify Dudley's "non black" looks, yet ignoring everyone else in the very exact game?
To me Dudley is a cool british black guy, just as Ryu is japanese and Chun Li chinese, nothing more.
Hey Onslaught, thanks for starting a very interesting (and DICEY!) thread!
Lets do an experiment. Take a look at this face:
: )
OK. First thought that comes to mind, just shout it out.
What race is that face?
What gender?
Obviously it's just a smiley (or more specifically a colon and end parenthesis), but it's enough information for people to start creating all sorts of associations from their own experience.
The question of race in cartoons and drawings is very interesting because most people have such an innate, unconscious, immediate reaction and it feels very obvious, but it's not universal at all. Everyone brings something different to the table.
For instance, all those SFvcharacters Onslaught named do look and feel very Asian to me. Yun and Yang especially. In my collective experience, they can't be anything BUT cocky Chinese kids. In my life I've met many a Chinese teenager that looked and acted like them (minus the kung-fu powers). They got the attitude, wirey build and cocky posture down so perfectly.
Also, I think my older brother looks exactly like Ikeno's Ryu from Third Strike, especially the Eternal Challenge cover . I was showing some family photos to my friends in college and many of them remarked the exact same thing without me bringing it up. And of course, there are also people who think that Ryu looks white (this exact subject has somehow come up multiple times in my life).
I think this sort of thing is mostly determined by the environment you are raised in. If you grow up in mainstream America, your template for a human being is probably set to white. If you watch the Simpsons, you know that everyone with yellow skin is white, and Asians are defined by having white skin. Heck, most people probably think of Arthur as a white kid, in spite of him being, well, an Aardvark (I always thought he was hispanic cos he reminded me of my friend Raoul who wore glasses). There's nothing inherently menacing about this, it's just how the collective unconscious of the country tends to think. It only becomes a negative factor when people run into others who think and feel differently, and suddenly there's a seemingly uncrossable chasm between you and your fellow man (a term which I use to refer to all of humanity--sorry ladies).
This subject is really fascinating to me. It really is worth talking about, and I'm kind of glad it came up here where the community is very international (and very civilized!).
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| nobinobita 621th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(4):Thanks" , posted Sun 27 Sep 06:42
quote:
What art are we talking about here? If we're comparing apples to apples, then it's Ikeno's 3rd Strike art. To me, both Ryu and Ibuki look decidedly asian. I can't see how you could mistake them for anything else. Even if they don't look exactly like "real asians", their features are deliberate enough. That's what I mean by "cue". The same "deliberate" features in Dudley's art are what's throwing people off, I think.
If you look at like...Kinu's old SF3 art, I don't think anyone would doubt that Dudley was a black guy. Akiman's gives me essentially the same feel. It wasn't until Ikeno's that I thought "wait, he is supposed to be black, right?"
I'm not arguing Dudley's race, I'm just arguing the argument, but I'm basing it on the assumption that it's Ikeno's art that's causing the argument in the first place.
Hey Polly, do you ever associate race with drawing style? I mean unconsciously, because I doubt most people will pick up a cartoon and think "well, lets see what race do we have here?".
I noticed that alot of my friends who are artists (of varying cultural and ethnic backgrounds) are more sensitive to drawing style rather than obvious racial markers in the characters depicted. So if you show me an Anime face, I immediately think Asian, and if you show me a super hero face i'll probably think "white dude".
But beyond that, I don't really have a problem with people not sticking to racial markers and just drawing very iconic faces to represent every race. Because within every race there's so much mind boggling variety in how a person can look and it's too limiting for an artist to only stick to popularly accepted racial markers.
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| ONSLAUGHT 3862th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Thanks" , posted Sun 27 Sep 06:56
quote:
For instance, all those SFvcharacters Onslaught named do look and feel very Asian to me. Yun and Yang especially. In my collective experience, they can't be anything BUT cocky Chinese kids. In my life I've met many a Chinese teenager that looked and acted like them (minus the kung-fu powers). They got the attitude, wirey build and cocky posture down so perfectly.
Yes, they feel asian beacuase those are the traits infused into their characters, you know, the cocky and flashy american (Ken) Vs the disciplined and focused japanese (Ryu) feel right because their personalities are well definied by this point. The thing is, we're talking about the portraits in the game. Sure, someone said (Pollyana?) that the asian characters look very asian with certain illustrators, but to me they look nothing like asians. What if Ryu was, let's say, from Germany, and they used the very same illustrations they've used up to this point; would you be like "German? No way, he's clearly japanese!" or would you accept it because he's just a very stylized representation of what a german guy would look like to a japanese artist?
All of you had some cool points this far, and I alwyas love what most of you guys have to say on any subject, but my point is that we can't tell the nationalities/ethnicity of the SF character just by looking at the portraits of their faces, and let's forget about Chun Li's chinese dress or Ryu's Gi, I'm talking strictly by the faces.
Speaking of which, how can you tell Sagat is from Thailand?
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| nobinobita 622th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(4):Thanks" , posted Sun 27 Sep 07:27
And one more thing (I can't help myself!).
I think there are lots of remarkable differences between the general aesthetic values between cultures. I apologize if this comes off as an East vs West thing, but hopefully I'll explain myself well enough to justify such generalizations.
For the purpose of this discussion I will use the following definitions:
Western = descended from Christian European Culture.
Eastern = descended from Confucian Culture.
In very general terms, Western art has a greater emphasis on Charicature while Eastern art tends to emphasize iconography. There's of course a million exceptions to the rule and lots of overlap between both cultures, but I don't have the time to go into them (but feel free to point them out to me).
So if you look at classical European art, there's a greater history of accurate portraiture. And if you look at Eastern art, it's more about the language of the lines, colors and composition rather than accurate reproduction of reality. These preferences have bled down to cartoons in popular culture.
If you watch any Disney animated feature there's a great tradition of charicature in the characters. Many classic Disney characters are given features somewhat similar to their voice actor, or other existing actors (Alladin's eyebrows were inspired by Tom Cruise). Most Anime characters are extremely iconic, and have very generalized features but are very easily identified by the particular drawing style they're executed in.
I think it's the leaning towards the iconic that throws off alot of western viewers of Manga and Anime. Because Western culture has a greater tendency towards charicature, the lack thereof leaves lots of room for unconsciously formed associations. This leads to thoughts like "well, they don't LOOK specifically Japanese, so they must be white."
I grew up with Japanese cartoons as a part of mainstream culture, so I never really questioned race in those cartoons. I just assumed that most of the characters were Asian like me. If they introduced a non Asian character with the same iconic features, it didn't bother me . That was just how they were drawn.
When I watched Robotech/Macross as a kid I saw Rick Hunter as a conventionally good looking young man. If I had to imagine him in real life, he could have been played by Leslie Cheung or Johnny Depp, either one would work for me since they were both "cool looking" people in the same way a cartoon character was cool. When I watched Peter Pan, i didn't think of Wendy as a pretty white girl, I just thought of her as a pretty girl. It wasn't until much later in life that race became a bigger issue in everything, including cartoons and drawing, which are like my sanctuary. At first I was resentful because I felt like thinking about things in terms of race was forced on me, but over the years I've learned not to take things personally, and now it really fascinates me how people's lives and the way they SEE life can be hugely influenced by invisible forces beyond their direct control.
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| Pollyanna 2763th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Thanks" , posted Sun 27 Sep 07:35
quote:
Hey Polly, do you ever associate race with drawing style? I mean unconsciously, because I doubt most people will pick up a cartoon and think "well, lets see what race do we have here?".
I don't so much because anime characters so often have races that totally betray their designs, or have mixed/imaginary heritages. (I like how the races and names have mixed so much in (Tomino) Gundam, for example.)
Unless the artist portrays the characters with a deliberate look (Urasawa does this with caricature...Inoue's characters look distinctly Japanese to me), then I just think they're "anime race". Sometimes, even if their race is expressly stated, it's hard to imagine them as such with their designs.
I don't read many American-style comics, but usually a character's race seems to be more evident? Like, asian characters really look asian.
I hope I didn't miss your point.
But the cincher, I think, deals with this...
quote:
Yes, they feel asian beacuase those are the traits infused into their characters, you know, the cocky and flashy american (Ken) Vs the disciplined and focused japanese (Ryu) feel right because their personalities are well definied by this point. The thing is, we're talking about the portraits in the game. Sure, someone said (Pollyana?) that the asian characters look very asian with certain illustrators, but to me they look nothing like asians. What if Ryu was, let's say, from Germany, and they used the very same illustrations they've used up to this point; would you be like "German? No way, he's clearly japanese!" or would you accept it because he's just a very stylized representation of what a german guy would look like to a japanese artist?
All of you had some cool points this far, and I alwyas love what most of you guys have to say on any subject, but my point is that we can't tell the nationalities/ethnicity of the SF character just by looking at the portraits of their faces, and let's forget about Chun Li's chinese dress or Ryu's Gi, I'm talking strictly by the faces.
Speaking of which, how can you tell Sagat is from Thailand?
If you showed me Ryu's SF Zero art, naked, I could not tell you where he was from, no. But Ikeno's 3S art? I think I'd have a pretty good idea. Same with all the other asian characters.
Buuuut...I think I know what the issue is. To me, those characters blatantly look like their race...or a cartoon(ish) depiction of it. Still...under scrutiny...like...Makoto? She doesn't really look Japanese, even though I see her as such.
I think what it is is that I'm accustomed to the Japanese cues for race. I understand where they're coming from with the depiction, even if it isn't technically accurate.
I live and breath anime and manga. As a fan, but more than that, I work on the stuff relentlessly for a living. It would make sense for me to be in tune with racial cues used by at least some Japanese artists. Maybe those cues aren't actually correct, and maybe they don't set off anything to some people, but (in the case of Ikeno's art at least) they make sense to me.
But this varies from artist to artist of course. I could never guess Sagat's race. Is he actually supposed to be Thai? I thought his country was Thailand because of his martial art. And Ken (especially in the SF Zero art) looks way too Japanese (or at least way too much like the Japanese characters) all the time.
I think you make a good point, and it's one that's probably right in most situations, but I do think Ikeno's art, with me at least, is an exception. I can't say for 100% because I can't go back in time and un-know the character's races, but I do feel that his cues are obvious enough.
青春謳歌 弱肉強食
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| nobinobita 623th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(3):Thanks" , posted Sun 27 Sep 07:39
quote:
Speaking of which, how can you tell Sagat is from Thailand?
This is an interesting question, because you're talking about a character made for a Japanese audience, and you're probably assessing it from outside the sphere it was intended for.
I'd like to answer this question with an anecdote. My aunt is Chinese, but she grew up in Thailand. She want to college in America in the 70s. One of her good friends from college was a Japanese guy. One day she was surprised to find him asking her about Muay Thai. She was shocked that anyone outside of Thailand knew about Thai kick boxing, but this guy thought it was the coolest thing in the world, because by the 70s, there was a history of Japanese Karateka challenging people from other fighting disciplines, and they would frequently get their asses kicked by Muay Thai fighters (the only school that held their own against Kick Boxers was Mas Oyama's Kyokushin school of karate--which I think is the inspiration for Makoto but i'm getting off subject).
Anyway, the Japanese were very proud of their martial arts traditions. But then sometime around the 70s, they started losing fights to Thai Kick Boxers. This was probably a great source of fascination and anxiety for followers of Karate. So I think Sagat is the personification of this.
It doesn't matter that he doesn't look specifically Thai because he's the personification of fear and intimidation in human form.
There's no rule that an artist has a responsibility to make a character look racially convincing, because there's no rule for how people look (humans are just too dang varied in every population) and there's certainly no accounting for how your art will be interpreted on a personal level, much less an international level.
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| Hagen de Merak 1023th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(5):Thanks" , posted Sun 27 Sep 08:27
quote:
I'm supporting the "Dudley is Cap's way of making up for Balrog's stereotypical appearance" take on things.
This thread does make me wonder: how many of you have actually met a lot of Black people? To some this question may sound ridiculous, but keep in mind that this is an international board, and there are some places in the world (and even within the U.S. itself) where there is little to no interaction with any Black people.
I mean, looking through this thread it almost seems like folks are saying that Black people NEVER look like Dudley does in his 3rd Strike portrait. Blacks come in all shapes and sizes, and it is not at all out of the question for a Black person to look like Dudley's 3rd Strike art.
You make a very good point, maybe I haven't met enough black people to make me assume Dudley is black. However, I have met many people with Middle Eastern/Indian decent. Especially back in college. Dudley's "cues" (as Pollyana mentions) make me believe he is of that heritage. Especially since a few of those people were, British, yes British, not American. So as you brought up, it makes me wonder, how many here have met alot of people with middle/eastern indian decent? not to say they all look like Dudley, but definitely alot of the ones ive met have very similiar features. Again, I'm not saying hes not black, I'm just giving my point of view and personal experience. Another finding that supports my point of view, is the resemblance he has to Darun Mister from the EX series. (I linked a drawing of him up top)
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| Maese 527th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(6):Thanks" , posted Sun 27 Sep 10:53
This topic is taking fascinating proportions.
Probably the most confusing of Dudley's "cues" would be his greek-like profile. While some of us may be used to see other kind of noses on black people from African descent, it is also true that such traits can be much less evident in european black people. As a soccer fan, I have seen many dutch, french, swedish, etc. black players with facial features pretty similar to Dudley's. That's why I did not have any problem accepting Dudley as a black man from the beggining. He's british, after all. While I see where the Indian/Middle Eastern theory comes from, I think we're reading too much into it.
It's just as IronD said. Dudley is only a stylish black guy, as opposed to the barbaric and primitive Boxer from SFII. And, along the lines of what Nobita and Polly are saying, let's not forget that Dudley is a depiction of a "stylish, refined black guy" from a japanese artist. That implies s lot of things. Let's see.
Knowing that Street Fighter is artistically an eminently japanese product, I never had any trouble identifying Ryu as japanese or Chun Li as chinese. That's the way most japanese artist represents those ethnicities nowadays. I can't see how could you take Ryu's face for, let's say, a german face. If Capcom wanted to depict a german guy, they would make him blond and blue eyed 99 times out of 100. Probably big nosed as well.
Much like I have little trouble identifying this guy on the pamphlet as japanese, althogh obviously little do real japanese people look like that. That was just the way western media depicted japanese people on those times. It was not supposed to be "realistic" nor "accurate". For fuck's sake, even the skin is YELLOW! Offensive and poor tasted as it may be, it is simply a caricature, as Nobita pointed out earlier. Dudley, Ryu, Chun Li... are all but caricatures as well, albeit created in another style and context, from another cultural and, if you allow me, historical point of view. It's all about different "codes" for depicting the same things. You have to know and assume them in order to understand.
In fact, it may sound like a boutade and probably is, but based on my experience I think Sakura, Ryu, Makoto, Ibuki & Co. look pretty much like present day japanese to me. Of course nobody (westerner or easterner, black or white) would have eyes as huge as them, but keeping in mind they're just mere cartoons, they offer a somewhat accurate depiction of their ethnicity. Perhaps we have the same trouble as with Dudley here: people who don't think Ryu's face is japanese enough propably has not met many japanese people in real life.
As for Sagat goes... well, sure, his face could be either thai, or eastern-european, or even selenite descent if you will. But I think he just was supposed to be a scary, big thai guy. back in the 90s videogames were a simple matter and mindsets behind them tend to be simple as well: he does muai-thai, so he should be thailandese. I don't see much more than that. Probably he's so tall and mighty to resemble the infamous Tong Po of Kickboxer, the source where much of the popularity that muai-thai had on late 80s-early 90s came from.
Then again, what would be our lovely Dictator ethnicity, then? he was supposed to be from Thailand on the very first SFII!
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| Spoon 1811th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(6):Thanks" , posted Mon 28 Sep 03:14
quote:
I just think they're "anime race".
This is pretty much how I feel about it, most of the time. I don't really dwell on it, especially given how with some artists all that really distinguishes one character from another is their hair and clothing. From time to time their race is significant, but plenty of times it really isn't, and that just gives me all the more reason (or perhaps has just brainwashed me) to not really think about it.
Sometimes they try to make things really obvious and caricatured (this black guy will have an afro, huge black man lips and black skin and etc.), but they're usually trying to make some kind of pointed example with that.
Other times they tell me, "so and so is from here!" and following my training I accept it immediately and don't think about it. Unless that character is said to be from Japan but has blond hair and blue eyes, in which case they obviously have American or European (usually German) blood in them, because that's what anime teaches me.
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charicature and composition
There's a strong iconographic and ideographic history in Chinese art, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was intimately related to the ideographic nature of the Chinese written language.
Composition is a funny note for me because the mathematics of perspective is a topic I've had to study, and the relationship between composition and perspective is an interesting one in pre-Renaissance Western art. Though there was some understanding of the nature of distance/close objects, the geometric and mathematical principles of perspectively were not as thoroughly understood or as rigorously documented as they were in the Renaissance area... and you had plenty of artists deliberately breaking understood ideas of distance/size relationships with then-orthodox enlargement of significant figures/symbols in the piece in lieu of the "rules" of perspective. That technical point to me is an interesting mash of iconic representation vs. realistic depiction/reproduction, but now we're really getting off-topic.
quote:
New Horizons
...no, this isn't actually a quote from a prior post. I just wanted a categorical division. Points to anybody who knows what I'm talking about with New Horizons.
Now there's a new topic I'm curious about: many of us seem to live in or have had very diverse cultural experiences. I make no secret of the fact that I've spent 99% of my life in the great cultural smorgasbord of Vancouver, but what about some of you fellows? Do many of you live in highly multicultural areas, or have you simply done a lot of travelling?
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"Re(2):Input required" , posted Fri 25 Sep 15:46
"Re(2):Input required" , posted Fri 25 Sep 16:43
