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| Iggy 8964th Post
 
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
     
     
     
     
     
|  "The TGS thread (Castlevania-free)" , posted Wed 16 Sep 07:22
First, we will now get the Famitsu scans one day earlier.
http://videogamerx.gamedonga.co.kr/zbxe/news_user_gamenews/1276559
Then, TOKIMEMO4 ON PSP.
It looks less awestupable then Love+.
Yushano kuseni Namaikida 3D (PSP)
In Square/Cavia's NieR Replicant, the bondage-loving busty bodyguard of the exhibitionist heroin is officially an hermaphrodite.
GO CAVIA!
Last Ranker (Capcom, PSP), already the game with the most WTF casting of the year, if not of the century.
Producer: Matsukawa (the grave robber of Gyakuten Saiban)
Director: Niinou Kazuya(Seikaijuu no Meikyuu, Seven Dragon)
Chara Design: Yoshikawa Tatsuya (DMC)
Scenario: Nojima Kazushige (KH2, FF7, 8, 10)
Music: Shimomura Yoko
WHAT THE WHAT IS THIS WHAT?
3DRPGH looks more and more like... well, what it was from the start: finally a Zelda game in 3D! So strange nobody at Nintendo thought about that before, really...
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| nobinobita 606th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(4):The TGS thread (Castlevania-free)" , posted Thu 17 Sep 02:31
quote:
Hey Nobi, you are the expert here but, to me, this is far from being so... perfect!
I think the game accomplishes alot with the low polygon, low res environment. Every contour of the models are well chosen and every pixel in the textures make sense, especially in relation to the exact resolution its being output at. It's remarkably competent. And the end effect is a nice, full looking game. Not just nice looking for DS, but just nice looking in general, cos it's very elegant (in conveying complex characters through simple forms) and it's very intentional.
So by "perfect" I mean that it seems to look exactly the way it should. My definition of perfect is not so universal and ultimate though. I mean, by these same terms Charlie's Angels 2 was a perfect looking movie.
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| sfried 410th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(5):The TGS thread (Castlevania-free)" , posted Thu 17 Sep 10:34:
quote:
I think the game accomplishes alot with the low polygon, low res environment. Every contour of the models are well chosen and every pixel in the textures make sense, especially in relation to the exact resolution its being output at. It's remarkably competent. And the end effect is a nice, full looking game. Not just nice looking for DS, but just nice looking in general, cos it's very elegant (in conveying complex characters through simple forms) and it's very intentional.
Not to mention what it looks like when the game is in motion.
Speaking of which, I don't know why I'm excited over Four Warriors of Light. (Like Saga2, also covered extensively by GAF) Matrix Software must be at its game with the DS hardware. It's like a living, breathing Commodore 64 game come to life in 3D.
(I mean HAYATO, how could you say a game that looks like this be considered unsightly just because it's on the DS?)
[this message was edited by sfried on Thu 17 Sep 10:35] |
| Spoon 1801th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(7):The TGS thread (Castlevania-free)" , posted Thu 17 Sep 10:35
quote:
One thing I hear alot is "90% is good enough!"
If you can actually get to 90% of what you intended that is a real achievement.
No one has the time and budget to do everything they want (unless they are badass organizational geniuses who know how to set realistic goals) so its always impressive and uplifting for me to see something in a game that looks or plays 100% the way it should (of course, this isn't a scientific 100%, just something based off of personal taste, experience and intuition).
If you can get 90%, either you have really low goals or you are somehow amazing... and if you are amazing, you will be setting higher goals that you inevitably will not achieve within the time you have :D
I have heard a sentiment that goes, "games which are released, no matter how good they are, probably come across as unplayable to the people that made/designed them." Such an incredible amount of stuff is cut during production of pretty much any game (even "seasonal rehash" games like Madden... I'm not kidding), that the finished product probably only somewhat resembles the original vision/intention. It'd be like breeding thoroughbreds racehorses and getting mules, but since a mule still looks like a horse, has four legs a tail and a head and can be ridden on with the same equipment as a horse, it will have to suffice.
I'd love to know what kind of stuff gets cut from SaGa games, since they are already excessively ambitious and slightly insane in the first place.
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| HAYATO 934th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(6):The TGS thread (Castlevania-free)" , posted Fri 18 Sep 10:04
quote:
(I mean HAYATO, how could you say a game that looks like this be considered unsightly just because it's on the DS?)
They are really beautiful games for a DS, that's out of question. The matter that bugs me so much is the awful trend of creating innovative games for such a low-end platform.
My point is, imagine how much better those games would benefit from a PS3, 360 or even a PSP release, not only in terms of graphics but also in gameplay depth and/or plot lenght, to say some easily improving issues...
Good games, usually based on original ideas/concepts are botched everyday in order to fit in the technically obsolete, albeit best-selling console.
In the meantime, us PSP users get graphically astonishing, overrated mocks of a game, such as FF:Dissidia or uninteresting ports of previous PS2 hits. Fortunately, the latter trend is gradually recceing but the former is increasing at an alarming pace...
I have high hopes on this "Last Ranker" game, I think projects like this are what PSP needs and we users deserve...
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| sfried 412th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(7):The TGS thread (Castlevania-free)" , posted Fri 18 Sep 11:48:
quote:
Good games, usually based on original ideas/concepts are botched everyday in order to fit in the technically obsolete, albeit best-selling console.
In the meantime, us PSP users get graphically astonishing, overrated mocks of a game, such as FF:Dissidia or uninteresting ports of previous PS2 hits. Fortunately, the latter trend is gradually recceing but the former is increasing at an alarming pace...
I have high hopes on this "Last Ranker" game, I think projects like this are what PSP needs and we users deserve...
Well, I think of the whole handhelds issue as more of Nintendo and Sony having switched places in the 32/64-bit era. I mean, sure, you're gonna have great games in both systems, but you can't blame developers for pushing the lower end platform because a)seeing it being accomplished is a feat in itself and b)it's a lot less riskier if it's released on a platform with the biggest market share. So I disagree about "original being botched" and see it more as ideas that even go through further refinement to fit within the limitations. Besides, even more original concepts usuallyinadvenrtantly spring up from such refinements (such as the invetion of the "combo" in fighters.
And it's just unfair to diss the DS's graphical capabilities considering what the fans of the original Playstation have claimed compared to N64's "muddy" visuals. (Even technically, the N64 had better spec, but that's another story for some other time I suppose.)
[this message was edited by sfried on Fri 18 Sep 11:51] |
| HAYATO 937th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(8):The TGS thread (Castlevania-free)" , posted Fri 18 Sep 16:36
quote:
Well, I think of the whole handhelds issue as more of Nintendo and Sony having switched places in the 32/64-bit era. I mean, sure, you're gonna have great games in both systems, but you can't blame developers for pushing the lower end platform because a)seeing it being accomplished is a feat in itself and b)it's a lot less riskier if it's released on a platform with the biggest market share. So I disagree about "original being botched" and see it more as ideas that even go through further refinement to fit within the limitations. Besides, even more original concepts usuallyinadvenrtantly spring up from such refinements (such as the invetion of the "combo" in fighters.
I'm not blaming developers, as it's only logical to act as they do in order to reach the wider range of customers (they have to earn a living after all). What I find so tragic is that these developers must constraint themselves and limit their creativity to a technologically outdated platform if they want to make a profit out of their products!!
Ninteno DS is a machine aimed to casual gamers (or even non-gamers) who look for some quick, aimless entertainment (from this point of view, it doesn't seem very different from a cellphone to me). All these people who got a DS to play "Dr Kawashima", "Professor Layton" and such non-games will find little appeal on things like the Castlevania and Contra series (even botched and crammed with non-gaming features to appeal to the mass as they are) and games such as the ones you pointed out. Fortunately, game business in Japan runs quite different to the rest of the world's and, being an almost self-sustainable market, there's plenty of room for everybody to earn a living. Otherwise, many game developers (basically all of them save the people behind "Pokemon", "Imagine..." and filth like that) would have died of starvation by now...
Casual gamers have entered our world, and we all are going to regret it...
And if you don't believe me about the "game botching" issue... just wait for "FF:vsXIII". it may end up being an utter mess like Dissidia, but I bet it'll be far more complex than it was intended to be back when it was catalogued as a mobile phone project. If only more games would make the same low-end/high end transition like this one...
quote:
And it's just unfair to diss the DS's graphical capabilities considering what the fans of the original Playstation have claimed compared to N64's "muddy" visuals. (Even technically, the N64 had better spec, but that's another story for some other time I suppose.)
It isn't unfair, it's only logical: never before in the history of videogames have coexisted 2 platforms on the same generation with such a technological gap between them. If things go on like this, I may be playing "Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia" and those nice games of yours on my PSP by the end of the year. If there's a platform powerful enough to emulate its counterpart, how much better would have the emulated games looked in case they were designed for this very platform originally? And, by "look" I mean what I stated in my previous post (yeah, I know this feels redundant, but bear with me boys)...
To Maese: Worthy brother, you know better than anyone this has nothing to do with me being a resented Segaist Sonyer, it's just a matter of principles. This isn't a mere platform war as those of old times, it's the future of gaming as we know it what's at stake!!!
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| sfried 414th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(9):The TGS thread (Castlevania-free)" , posted Fri 18 Sep 22:34:
quote:
Ninteno DS is a machine aimed to casual gamers (or even non-gamers) who look for some quick, aimless entertainment (from this point of view, it doesn't seem very different from a cellphone to me). All these people who got a DS to play "Dr Kawashima", "Professor Layton" and such non-games will find little appeal on things like the Castlevania and Contra series (even botched and crammed with non-gaming features to appeal to the mass as they are) and games such as the ones you pointed out. Fortunately, game business in Japan runs quite different to the rest of the world's and, being an almost self-sustainable market, there's plenty of room for everybody to earn a living. Otherwise, many game developers (basically all of them save the people behind "Pokemon", "Imagine..." and filth like that) would have died of starvation by now...
Casual gamers have entered our world, and we all are going to regret it...
I'm sorry you feel that way, because I fucking enjoy the goddamn Professor Layton games and it does not make me any less of a hardcore gamer. The term "casual" gamer is a mockery in itself.
What? Because I enjoy point-and-click adventure games does not mean I can't enjoy Castlevania and Contra? The hell?
quote:
It isn't unfair, it's only logical: never before in the history of videogames have coexisted 2 platforms on the same generation with such a technological gap between them. If things go on like this, I may be playing "Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia" and those nice games of yours on my PSP by the end of the year. If there's a platform powerful enough to emulate its counterpart, how much better would have the emulated games looked in case they were designed for this very platform originally? And, by "look" I mean what I stated in my previous post (yeah, I know this feels redundant, but bear with me boys)...
To Maese: Worthy brother, you know better than anyone this has nothing to do with me being a resented Segaist Sonyer, it's just a matter of principles. This isn't a mere platform war as those of old times, it's the future of gaming as we know it what's at stake!!!
Actrually, based on what you said, you make it seems like it is a matter of platform allegiance. The factions maybe different and the philosophical stances they take might have diverged, but the sides are the same and fanboys simply argue about who is "right" or "wrong". (That's the whole problem with console wars, in general. Nothing but to lengthen ones e-penis/e-boobsize over brand loyalty.)
Let me ask you this, if PSP was the lower, cheaper end console, wouldn't you still have rooted for it anyways?
Stop being such a DS-hater.
[this message was edited by sfried on Fri 18 Sep 22:38] |
| HAYATO 939th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(10):The TGS thread (Castlevania-free)" , posted Fri 18 Sep 23:58
quote:
What? Because I enjoy point-and-click adventure games does not mean I can't enjoy Castlevania and Contra? The hell?
Of course you can but, again, you aren't the average gamer Nintendo DS is aimed for. A hardcore gamer can of course enjoy non-games, as he's been in contact with different kinds of games for a long time (long enough at least to make him used to the basic elements of traditional gaming, such as the use of buttons, joypads and in-game mechanics like life bars, combos or items/inventory), but the opposite situation (a non-gamer liking hardcore games) is much more scarce. Would any grandpa or the average saleswoman (the bulk of DS gamers spectrum), who already had a tough time grasping the basic mechanics of gaming (if even) be attracted all of a sudden to such specific and niche games as Metroidvanias, hellish 3rd person shooters or japanese RPGs? Allow me to doubt it.
The matter is that, as non-gamers have beome the dominant species in today's market, companies willing to make a profit out of their projects must diversify their products to reach the biggest customers range. When programming for machines with similar specs (PS3, 360) there are no concerns, as they can easily port their games from one platform to another, or even launching them simultaneously, whatever suits them best.
On the contrary, when faced with a limited budget or an assigned project devised for a portable platform, they are forced to choose, because of that HUEG technological gap existing between them which, in practice renders impossible to make any kind of port or dual release (to do so they should make two entirely different games, something few current companies can afford).
As I stated before, those companies would choose the platform with the biggest market share, in order to secure the profitability of their games. Non-gamers are the ones who made Wii and DS so popular and still constitute the most of its market share, but that doesn't mean they have gone deeper in the world of gaming (that is, they are still at a loss when confronted with, for instance, "Portrait of Ruin"). Therefore, they won't buy anything else but non-games so, in the end we have titles launched on a platform whose main users base don't care about (i.e. the "tree falling on the empty forest" situation) and the companies benefits being much meager than they could have been, had they chosen any more hardcore-oriented platform...
quote:
Actrually, based on what you said, you make it seems like it is a matter of platform allegiance. The factions maybe different and the philosophical stances they take might have diverged, but the sides are the same and fanboys simply argue about who is "right" or "wrong". (That's the whole problem with console wars, in general. Nothing but to lengthen ones e-penis/e-boobsize over brand loyalty.)
Let me ask you this, if PSP was the lower, cheaper end console, wouldn't you still have rooted for it anyways?
Stop being such a DS-hater.
Probably not. I chose PSP due to the device's versatility (Custom Firmware, powerful emulation homebrew, multimedia capabilities). Were DS the one offering all of this, I would probably chosen it instead of PSP. Hell, even in the case they were equally powerful and versatile, I'd have gone for Nintendo's (back then I even considered to get one due to some hardcore games such as "Princess Peach" and Castlevania titles).
My previous state about being a Sonyer was a private joke I have with Maese (or any former Gamerah reader) although, truth to be told, Sony games used to appeal more to me.
PS: Yeah, you can laugh if you want, but I consider "Princess Peach" as a pretty hardcore game by today's standards. If you had met a 45 years old welder who borrows his daughter's DS to play "Prof. Layton" on the night shift and tells you how hard it was for him to get used to the mechanics (buttons, stylus et al.) you may begin to think otherwise...
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| HAYATO 942th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "The TotalGamerShow thread (non-gamers free)" , posted Sat 19 Sep 08:28:
quote:
 Pardon me, I have a question barely related to the topic currently derailing this thread.
First off, I'm probably not the person who should be wondering about this since I find the whole hardcore/casual designation to be arbitrary in its definition and to also be part of a mind-set that I don't subscribe to. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't videogames become popularized through early home systems such as the Atari and arcades? In both cases the games were designed to be as immediately accesible to as many people as possible. Most people would quickly die in most games -which with money gobbling arcade games was the point- but the games were still supposed to draw in a large audience. The subculture of people who enjoyed the games far more than the average person was an unexpected by-product. Doesn't that mean that the "casual" game is probably the more pure, original type of game while the "hardcore" is the aberration?
Sorry, my fault: when talking about "hardcore" and "casual" in my previous topics I tried to make a distinction between "standard" gamers (be them average players or true die-hard fanatics) and "new batch" gamers (salarymen, grandpas, young girls, etc). To further clarify the issue I'll call the former ones "gamers", while the latter ones will be labeled as "non-gamers" (pretty much what I did in my latest post).
When repeteadly exposed to different stimuli, any sane individual is able to discern what he likes and what he doesn't, what attracts one's interest and what doesn't.
When I was a little kid my father tried to instill into me his passion for cars and mechanics, to no avail. On the contrary, I felt attracted to those mesmerizing, bright virtual worlds coming to me from my room's TV. The same happens to me with other hobbies and traditional ways of entertainment. One could say, for instance, that I'm not into cars, football or fishing but I like movies, comics and videogames.
As anyone who takes interest in a hobby, I try to get the most out of it (being "the most" the personal measure one finds suitable) : I read about games, talk about games with my friends and I, of course, play games on a regular basis. Thus, I call myself a "gamer". Depending on how much time I devote to my hobby I could be labeled (via interaction with my environment and other gamers) as a "casual", "regular" or even "hardcore" gamer, but a gamer nonetheless.
Although it could sound strange (it surely does to me!), there are many people who react to games the same way I do to bass fishing contests: utter indiference (or even plain digust, trust me), be it due to ignorance or fully aware of what kind of entertainment videogames can offer. They are clearly non-gamers to me, aren't they?
Originally, videogames were concieved to reach as many people as possible, but only those who find them interesting go back to them on a regular basis while the remaining ones would move onto other hobbies they find more exciting or enrichening. Some other hobbies may include cooking, solving sudokus and various pasttimes, playing card games or even learning other languages...
An issue appears when trying to overlap or diffuse the boundaries between hobbies. Due to the versatile nature of computers, which allows us to use them as a sort of metamachines (making them act and assume functions of lower-end, dedicated machines) companies can design programs to emulate (or even completely replace) other traditional ways of entertainment. This way, they can reach a wider spectrum of clients: both gamers and non-gamers!! That wouldn't be problem per sé, save in the case that this sudden arrival of non-gamers could mean a threat to game production tendencies. That would really constitute an unexpected by-product... and that's exactly what's happening right now!!!
UPDATE: A similar, albeit far more vehement approach to the discussed topic can be found HERE.
[this message was edited by HAYATO on Sat 19 Sep 08:36] |
| ONSLAUGHT 3855th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Mmmhh.." , posted Sat 19 Sep 10:09
It's always interesting to see this "Hardcore Vs Casual" without the usual trolling of 99% of sites/blogs/bbs/portals out there.
While I somewhat agree with Ishamel about the arbitrariety of the branding, I also agree a lot with how Hayato feels.
Let's admit it, we all feel proud for being "there", in the beginnig of this hobby. Most of us started with the Atari consoles, arcades and the NES in the 80's, our tastes have evolved along with videogames, we started with rudimentary graphics and rudimentary mechanics. Who wasn't amazed with the graphics of a new console? I remember my jaw dropping when I saw a tv ad for Super Mario Bros. 3, and then with Super Mario World. Yes, we were "casuals" at first, but most of us turned that vogue/trend into a lifestyle, our primary hobby, and we were proud of it.
I don't know about other parts of the world, but here, in Mexico, you used to be treated like a pariah/nerd/outcast in ceratin circles just for liking videogames; sure, EVERYONE played SF II, but not even 5% of those gamers had a console or played any other games. SF II was like the exception to the rule because even the "cool" guys played it (I still know people that haven't played anything but SF II).
Suddenly videogames are cool! Everyone likes their wii sports, their wii fits and their guitar heroes. Videogames appear now on TV in shows about celebrity gossip or cooking. Everyone brand themselves as "gamers". I'm not blaming people for liking non-games, we can enjoy those with little to no trouble, but I doubt anyone here would invest more time in Nintendogs than Super Metroid or a good fighting game for example.
What I cannot stand is the flood of people that ask me about games because they're into games now; and it's not like they suddenly are playing RPGs or fighters, they're "playing" fucking Wii Fit or Guitar Hero! I can't go to a game store to look for an old or not so popular game without seeing boxes and boxes of Rock Bands, Wii Fits, Wii and DS shovelware everywhere! Sure, there always have been crap games, but at least they resembled some kind of game, now we have shit like Brainz Trainz or Petz that don't even qualify as games.
I always compare this to cinema where I live. Movies like The Host, Curse of the Golden Flower, The Last King of Scotland, Tropa de Elite etc. only last 4 or 6 days at most because nobody go to watch those kind of movies, yet shit like GI Joe, American Pie, Disaster/Epic/Dance Movie, any Adam Sandler/Rob Schneider/Ben Stiller stay in theater for like a month with tons of people watching them...
Remember the people I mentioned before? the ones turned suddenly into gamers? They see the wii as a novelty, as something cool, something they can play for a week and forget about it afterwards. They will buy the trendy games, they will play with their girlfriends/boyfriends, grandmas/grandpas, mom/dad... They will have fun and then move onto the next gadget, they won't buy the Beyond Good and Evils, the Okamis, or even the No More Heroes, they will buy anything that doesn't resemble a game, because they're not nerds playing kid stuff, they're grown ups enjoying their cutting edge new gadget, they will never own a Playstation or an Xbox with traditional controls, they will never download any wiiware game... These are the people that play the cellphone games and enjoy shallow entertainment...
I think I lost what I wanted to say, but I see the Wii and DS as piece of shit shovelware. Sure, there are good games for both systems, but that's natural, I bet even the N-Gage had at least one good game.
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| sfried 415th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(1):Mmmhh..More Okamiden shots" , posted Sat 19 Sep 12:49:
quote:
It's always interesting to see this "Hardcore Vs Casual" without the usual trolling of 99% of sites/blogs/bbs/portals out there.
...
I think I lost what I wanted to say, but I see the Wii and DS as piece of shit shovelware. Sure, there are good games for both systems, but that's natural, I bet even the N-Gage had at least one good game.
It's funny how you just ruined the argument with that statement alone. Now I know even MadMan's Cafe can have its senses bereft with fanboyish arguments.
I disagree entirely with the stance that games whould be viewed in the same vein as movies and music. This opens up a whole Pandora's Box (no pun) argument of the "games as art" movement, something which I've been trying to deter people from doing since these "auteurs" would often cite narrative structure as main principles of game design instead of, you know, gameplay.
"Casual" games, as Ishmael said, are games in their "purest sense". They have rules that are made clear. There is a challenge presented. The comparison is akin to sports. In fact, it is better to compare videogames to a sport than to movies. That's not to say that there is no "art" to creating the assets of the games, designing the structure of the rules, along with inventing new conditions for the player (as is to say that there can also be an "art" to programming). There are lots of games that blur the line between "casual" and "hardcore" (See various puzzles games played at competitive levels), and even these so-called "casual games" can enter the threshold of "hardcore" once the element of competition is introduced.
In the end, these labels are all seemingly arbitrary, market level classifications created by a more recent (and disgruntled) band of gamers in order to brand the Wii and the DS (or maybe just Nintendo's in general) audience as a sort of "subpar" set. This is nothing new, really: Remember the whole argument about games for "mature" audiences? Yup, same people who are conjuring this label up.
(The same argument can also be said about the arbitrary usage and classifications of "JRPGs" and "WRPGs", but that's another story for another day.)
What I don't understand is people are so desperate about making these distinctions, as if they're really clinging on to old hatreds.
quote:
Also, the DS (and downloadable games) represent the last best hope for adventure games, SO THEY ARE GOOD REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING ELSE, AND THAT'S FINAL.
Amen, brotha!
Going back to TGS, more beautiful Okamiden shots.
[this message was edited by sfried on Sat 19 Sep 12:56] |
| ONSLAUGHT 3856th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Mmmhh..More Okamiden shots" , posted Sat 19 Sep 15:32
quote:
I think I lost what I wanted to say, but I see the Wii and DS as piece of shit shovelware. Sure, there are good games for both systems, but that's natural, I bet even the N-Gage had at least one good game.
It's funny how you just ruined the argument with that statement alone. Now I know even MadMan's Cafe can have its senses bereft with fanboyish arguments.
I guess I deserve that. I wasn't clear enough due to my limitations in the english language, but that's my fault.
I also find funny how you're against branding, yet you're calling me fanboy just for stating my opinion, isn't that a bit contradictory to you? or is it perhaps my shitty english that is not allowing me to understand?
I never said anything against you, I was just saying how I perceive things, does that make me wrong and makes you right?
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| Spoon 1802th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(3):Mmmhh..More Okamiden shots" , posted Sat 19 Sep 15:39
There are so many people that play "casual" games with such devotion that call these people "casual gamers" is a bit of a misnomer.
We've seen people who have had computers set up in every room of their house so that they will never be apart from their favourite facebook/browser-based game. That's pretty hardcore, if you ask me.
I think it's folly to think of "casual games" as some kind of corrupting evil. Sure they may have zero appeal to you because the games are too simple, but they are not too simple for people who have never played games before... you know, like how we were, once? We should remember how hard Super Mario Bros. 1 was, or how in kindergarten we got beaten up by Glass Joe, or simply trying to play Street Fighter 2 with any kind of coherence when we were little.
Now, we can argue that the games we had as our entry points into playing games are better than a lot of the games that are churned out right now. That might have a bit more validity, but let's be realistic: Space Invaders by today's standards would be considered a casual game, and would go for about a dollar on the iPhone.
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| HAYATO 942th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(1):Mmmhh... sexy!!" , posted Sat 19 Sep 16:55
quote:
It's always interesting to see this "Hardcore Vs Casual" without the usual trolling of 99% of sites/blogs/bbs/portals out there.
While I somewhat agree with Ishamel about the arbitrariety of the branding, I also agree a lot with how Hayato feels.
Let's admit it, we all feel proud for being "there", in the beginnig of this hobby. Most of us started with the Atari consoles, arcades and the NES in the 80's, our tastes have evolved along with videogames, we started with rudimentary graphics and rudimentary mechanics. Who wasn't amazed with the graphics of a new console? I remember my jaw dropping when I saw a tv ad for Super Mario Bros. 3, and then with Super Mario World. Yes, we were "casuals" at first, but most of us turned that vogue/trend into a lifestyle, our primary hobby, and we were proud of it.
I don't know about other parts of the world, but here, in Mexico, you used to be treated like a pariah/nerd/outcast in ceratin circles just for liking videogames; sure, EVERYONE played SF II, but not even 5% of those gamers had a console or played any other games. SF II was like the exception to the rule because even the "cool" guys played it (I still know people that haven't played anything but SF II).
Suddenly videogames are cool! Everyone likes their wii sports, their wii fits and their guitar heroes. Videogames appear now on TV in shows about celebrity gossip or cooking. Everyone brand themselves as "gamers". I'm not blaming people for liking non-games, we can enjoy those with little to no trouble, but I doubt anyone here would invest more time in Nintendogs than Super Metroid or a good fighting game for example.
What I cannot stand is the flood of people that ask me about games because they're into games now; and it's not like they suddenly are playing RPGs or fighters, they're "playing" fucking Wii Fit or Guitar Hero! I can't go to a game store to look for an old or not so popular game without seeing boxes and boxes of Rock Bands, Wii Fits, Wii and DS shovelware everywhere! Sure, there always have been crap games, but at least they resembled some kind of game, now we have shit like Brainz Trainz or Petz that don't even qualify as games.
I always compare this to cinema where I live. Movies like The Host, Curse of the Golden Flower, The Last King of Scotland, Tropa de Elite etc. only last 4 or 6 days at most because nobody go to watch those kind of movies, yet shit like GI Joe, American Pie, Disaster/Epic/Dance Movie, any Adam Sandler/Rob Schneider/Ben Stiller stay in theater for like a month with tons of people watching them...
Remember the people I mentioned before? the ones turned suddenly into gamers? They see the wii as a novelty, as something cool, something they can play for a week and forget about it afterwards. They will buy the trendy games, they will play with their girlfriends/boyfriends, grandmas/grandpas, mom/dad... They will have fun and then move onto the next gadget, they won't buy the Beyond Good and Evils, the Okamis, or even the No More Heroes, they will buy anything that doesn't resemble a game, because they're not nerds playing kid stuff, they're grown ups enjoying their cutting edge new gadget, they will never own a Playstation or an Xbox with traditional controls, they will never download any wiiware game... These are the people that play the cellphone games and enjoy shallow entertainment...
I think I lost what I wanted to say, but I see the Wii and DS as piece of shit shovelware. Sure, there are good games for both systems, but that's natural, I bet even the N-Gage had at least one good game.
quote:
I hate to see games like Muramasa, Monster Hunter 3 and Arc Rise on Wii. The game suffers, the player suffers and the company suffers when it doesn't sell. Larger consumer base does not mean larger user base. Or wait...how should you say that? Larger install base does not mean larger consumer base? I mean, just because a large number of people own the system, that doesn't mean a large number of them are potential buyers.
Ah, what a relief to feel I've made my point clear at last. And alas!, what a joy to know I'm not alone in my eye-opening crusade...
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| nobinobita 610th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(1):Mmmhh.." , posted Sun 20 Sep 03:27:
Hayato, Onslaught, I can relate to how you feel, but do either of you actually own a DS or PSP?
I used to consider portable gaming inherently inferior to console gaming (a sacred affair that always takes place in front of the nicest TV you can afford in the comforts of your own home with no distractions). I knew that the DS was getting all these awesome games, but I resented it, because I wanted those games to come out for a proper console.
But then I finally bit the bullet and bought a DS and my world was flipped upside down. When you own the actual machine, when you're not just playing it at a kiosk or playing your friend's hand-held for a few minutes, when it's yours and yours alone it becomes just as intensely personal as a proper console. And if you're a hardcore gamer (by which I mean if you were in the GIA's target audience) then the DS and PSP are unquestionably the best systems around for you.
I can REALLY relate to alot of the anger that you feel towards the current state of things. I grew up on the Famicom and Megadrive and I read Gamefan and haunted arcades. I'm sure we'd be good friends if we grew up in the same cul-de-sac. I used to get really depressed that it seemed like the games I love are no longer being made and the games that are an anathema to me are the best sellers of the year (my beef is not with casual games so much as big, aggressively ugly next-gen games with no substantial gameplay, novelty mechanics hailed a "innovation" and awesomely effective marketing campaigns). I was filled with the feeling that todays average gamer is as interested in games as the average movie goer is interested in films, that is, they're not looking for a deep, rewarding, personal experience, they just want to pass some time.
But then I got a DS. And like Whitesword pointed out, I realised it has "more interesting games than I have time to play."
quote:
Today's DS and Wii are pretty much the Famicom or the Playstation of yesteryear.
I stand behind Maese's statement 100% (well, 100% if you replace "Wii" with "PSP").
The DS and PSP are getting the most interesting (gameplay, story and art-production wise) and varied games of this generation. Like it or not, this is because the DS has the biggest user base by far, and it's cheaper to produce games for. Because of this there's much less risk in creating games for it so you have far more freedom to experiment and reach out to niche audiences. Games are a business, so it all comes down to money.
Which is why its miraculous that companies like Level-5 can produce one astoundingly NEAT game after another. Games like Inazumen Eleven (a sports RPG! with great characters!) or Jeanne d'Arc, a hardcore console style turn based RPG with awesome art and an actually mature story (which the New York times praised as more intelligent and intruiging than Bioshock) (also a favorite game of porno super star Jenna Haze).
And then there's the upcoming Another World (I believe it's the first game Studio Ghibli is actually officially involved with--although I could swear they helped out w/Magic Pengel). That game's beautiful no matter how you swing it, even if its on a portable. And don't forget about the upcoming "Fantasy Life" an RPG that looks be have as rich a setting as any other, but with a focus on the mundane. You build up your every day life in a sunny fantasy world, but ah there's a twist (an actually interesting twist!), the world may be ending soon! How will you live out your last days when you're not the world saving hero? How does that change your priorities, your concept of value? Could this game work as a metaphor for the fear we feel towards the death of this very kind of game? I fully expect these questions to be tackled (in a non binary system) by Fantasy Life.
I'm just rambling at this point.
Anyway, I heartily, heartily suggest that if you're a card carrying hardcore gamer, you go out and buy a DS (and then a PSP if you have additional funds). It took years of harassment from my own hardcore gaming friends (who all have obscure PHDs in things like "psychometrics" so i have to listen to them), but I finally caved and bought one and its the best gaming related decision I've made in years.
Ah, and one more thing.
The DS is not only keeping traditional "hardcore" gaming alive, it's introducing it to a new generation. Kids these days would have very little interest in anything 2-d or sprite based if not for the DS. But now they're playing pretty hardcore RPGs like Pokemon (this is a good game, i promise you) and very hardcore twitch games like Metroid, Castlevania and Rockman. The DS is keeping games as we know them alive. Yes I would like these games in HD on my next-gen console, but I'm just too dang happy with the quality of DS and PSP games to feel bad about it.
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Sun 20 Sep 03:37] |
| Spoon 1803th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(2):Mmmhh.." , posted Sun 20 Sep 04:01
quote:
massive wall of non-spam text
I wouldn't mind seeing Rocket Slime done with a next-gen budget on a next-gen platform. It would surely be gigantic, allow for more than 4 players in multiplayer, and have a buttload of things for me to do and have tank battles larger and more dramatic than ever.
But if they did that, I'm not sure if it would have the lovely 16-bit style sprites (which are lovingly animated!) and tilesets which help make Rocket Slime utterly wonderful and utterly charming. I'm not certain that they'd be allowed to get away with that on a PS3.
A PSP allows me to play SNES games on the go, which I think is already worth owning a PSP for.
I don't even think going after the portables for being technologically behind the home consoles has ever been a valid argument. There has only been one time when portables have been anywhere close to being on par with home consoles, and that was the year when the PSP was released. The next year, the PS3 was released. Think about when the GameBoy came out... was it anywhere near what an NES could do, in terms of graphics, processing, or audio? The GameBoy color when compared to an N64? How about the GBA, when compared with the PS2-era consoles? Now we have the DS and it's compared to the Wii/PS3/360... the fact is, we've never had portables that could be compared to the home consoles on pure specs. Yet was ANYBODY bitter when Pokemon was released on GameBoy? All I remember when I saw shots of Pokemon in Nintendo Power was desperately wanting a GameBoy, not being furious that it wasn't going to be released in a more glorious form on a home console. Though I do remember dreaming of Pokemon being slotted in to a Super GameBoy slotted into an XBAND so that you could trade and battle with people around the world....
I grew up with a Famicom (which I couldn't buy games for in Canada! No gamefaqs and no internet, either!), and I have to say that the PSP and DS is full of games I want to play. Any game might be better if it had more awesome technology/scope/budget, but then they wouldn't be the same game anymore. They're made the way they are, and we take them (or not) as they come. Anything else is wishful thinking, and if you don't believe me, then go play the next-gen Bionic Commando.
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| Just a Person 1308th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(8):The TGS thread (Castlevania-free)" , posted Thu 24 Sep 03:40
quote:
Sorry, but what are the two of you talking about? Is Capcom going to announce a new version of Street Fighter IV already? Or are you just joking and I was the one who didn't understand (it wouldn't be the first time that happens...)?
There are some rumours/crap about SFIV' With Dudley, Makoto, Ibuki, Cody, Guy, Adon plus two new characters.
Really? But that doesn't seem very likely to me; Capcom took a long time to make just four new characters to SFIV, then took a good amount of months to get six well-known SF characters and insert them in the SFIV console versions. How much time would Capcom need to add more six returning fighters and create two original ones? And would the consoles handle it? And what about Dee Jay and T.Hawk, who were supposedly semi-ready to be added to SFIV?
The idea is great, though... IF Capcom makes this game, I'd love that!
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Hagen de Merak 1017th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(1):Mmmhh.." , posted Thu 24 Sep 17:32
quote:
It's always interesting to see this "Hardcore Vs Casual" without the usual trolling of 99% of sites/blogs/bbs/portals out there.
While I somewhat agree with Ishamel about the arbitrariety of the branding, I also agree a lot with how Hayato feels.
Let's admit it, we all feel proud for being "there", in the beginnig of this hobby. Most of us started with the Atari consoles, arcades and the NES in the 80's, our tastes have evolved along with videogames, we started with rudimentary graphics and rudimentary mechanics. Who wasn't amazed with the graphics of a new console? I remember my jaw dropping when I saw a tv ad for Super Mario Bros. 3, and then with Super Mario World. Yes, we were "casuals" at first, but most of us turned that vogue/trend into a lifestyle, our primary hobby, and we were proud of it.
I don't know about other parts of the world, but here, in Mexico, you used to be treated like a pariah/nerd/outcast in ceratin circles just for liking videogames; sure, EVERYONE played SF II, but not even 5% of those gamers had a console or played any other games. SF II was like the exception to the rule because even the "cool" guys played it (I still know people that haven't played anything but SF II).
Suddenly videogames are cool! Everyone likes their wii sports, their wii fits and their guitar heroes. Videogames appear now on TV in shows about celebrity gossip or cooking. Everyone brand themselves as "gamers". I'm not blaming people for liking non-games, we can enjoy those with little to no trouble, but I doubt anyone here would invest more time in Nintendogs than Super Metroid or a good fighting game for example.
What I cannot stand is the flood of people that ask me about games because they're into games now; and it's not like they suddenly are playing RPGs or fighters, they're "playing" fucking Wii Fit or Guitar Hero! I can't go to a game store to look for an old or not so popular game without seeing boxes and boxes of Rock Bands, Wii Fits, Wii and DS shovelware everywhere! Sure, there always have been crap games, but at least they resembled some kind of game, now we have shit like Brainz Trainz or Petz that don't even qualify as games.
I always compare this to cinema where I live. Movies like The Host, Curse of the Golden Flower, The Last King of Scotland, Tropa de Elite etc. only last 4 or 6 days at most because nobody go to watch those kind of movies, yet shit like GI Joe, American Pie, Disaster/Epic/Dance Movie, any Adam Sandler/Rob Schneider/Ben Stiller stay in theater for like a month with tons of people watching them...
Remember the people I mentioned before? the ones turned suddenly into gamers? They see the wii as a novelty, as something cool, something they can play for a week and forget about it afterwards. They will buy the trendy games, they will play with their girlfriends/boyfriends, grandmas/grandpas, mom/dad... They will have fun and then move onto the next gadget, they won't buy the Beyond Good and Evils, the Okamis, or even the No More Heroes, they will buy anything that doesn't resemble a game, because they're not nerds playing kid stuff, they're grown ups enjoying their cutting edge new gadget, they will never own a Playstation or an Xbox with traditional controls, they will never download any wiiware game... These are the people that play the cellphone games and enjoy shallow entertainment...
I think I lost what I wanted to say, but I see the Wii and DS as piece of shit shovelware. Sure, there are good games for both systems, but that's natural, I bet even the N-Gage had at least one good game.
I pretty much agree with you except for one thing. The DS. Have you actually played it? Lots of great games.Sadly for me, I'm not a hand-held gamer. I just can't spend my time staring at a tiny screen. To me it lessens the experience playing a great game on a hand-held. Sure I can play fighting game, or a quick side-scroller for a few minutes. But I can't imagine playing a long RPG, or any other game that requires a lot of time. I'd rather play games on my Television.
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| Maou 1810th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "gimme Elena" , posted Tue 29 Sep 13:07:
quote:
I remember kofoguz called it about this happening... ...I just wished it was not true.
Never doubt our wise, yoghurt-loving friend.
Even though I don't particularly like SF IV, this news makes me happy on principle, maybe just to see a modern fighter popular enough that it can have a small update...I'm surprised/interested to see if they can pull this off nowadays, past last decade's SF craze. Interesting too that it won't be at "full price"...or will it? Seems like a good time not to make Super SF IV a downloadable, but to offer some sort of online discount at least for the owners of the original.
But really, I'm just keen to see more Dudley. Got him on the mind lately, for some reason. And speaking of badass black (?) characters, 3D Elena would make my day/week/life. SFZero3 DeeJay says, "Ohhh-kay!"
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Tue 29 Sep 13:13] |
| Count Hihihi
186th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):Super SF IV..." , posted Tue 29 Sep 15:53
quote:
I really wish I could get excited about this, but after being underwhelmed by SFIV in a big way, I feel kind of taken advantage of. But then who am I to begrudge Capcom making gobs of money selling essentially the same game to people all over again. In fact, <sarcasm mode> I bet there won't be any SFIII characters in it since they're saving them up for the NEXT incremental version</sarcasm mode>.
Sorry all, I'm not usually this negative about things, but SFIV was just so disappointing to me ultimately.
I don't play SFIV, so I'm pretty neutral, or should I that I don't give a shit.. but anyway, I wonder why there is never such a reaction when Namco or Sega release another version of a fighting game. Or when yet another KoF game is announced.
Please, do tell.
Kotaku Ono and the Fanboy spirit.
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| Just a Person 1312th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):gimme Elena" , posted Tue 29 Sep 23:50
quote:
Seems pretty standard for a fighting game update. Actually, better than standard. 8 new characters is a lot. I can't see the point in complaining unless you just don't like SF4 to begin with. (in which case, you aren't the market, I don't think)
Yeah, I agree. It's quite like the new versions of SFII and SFIII, with substantial upgrades, possible gameplay tweaks, and it doesn't make the previous version of SFIV useless, as the balance adjustments in SSFIV won't probably please everyone, so some people may still prefer SFIV.
Anyway, some news: T.Hawk vs. Juri video. The quality isn't great, but we can see how the attacks are. Juri's Ultra is BRUTAL (and she also taunts the opponent during it... the girl is a psycho!)!
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| karasu99
219th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(3):gimme Elena" , posted Wed 30 Sep 00:23
quote:
Seems pretty standard for a fighting game update. Actually, better than standard. 8 new characters is a lot. I can't see the point in complaining unless you just don't like SF4 to begin with. (in which case, you aren't the market, I don't think)
I'm not crazy about SF4 myself, but not every game I buy can be my absolute favorite. I'd rather be playing a new KOF, but SF4 is what it is and I don't see any point in begrudging it anymore (personally, I mean).
Keep the fighting games coming!
No, you're absolutely right. I suspect I was just in a foul mood anyway last night when I posted that-- I should really be happy that fighting games are still being made, and that 8 new characters isn't insignificant. More accurately, I think I should say that I had really high expectations for SFIV, and that THAT is the reason why I was disappointed, and that SFIV is merely mediocre rather than bad. Still not sure I'll buy this one-- they'll have to really pull out the stops to get me back into a serious buying mood.
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| Maou 1813th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(4):gimme Elena" , posted Wed 30 Sep 01:08:
quote:
No, you're absolutely right. I suspect I was just in a foul mood anyway last night when I posted that-- I should really be happy that fighting games are still being made, and that 8 new characters isn't insignificant. More accurately, I think I should say that I had really high expectations for SFIV, and that THAT is the reason why I was disappointed, and that SFIV is merely mediocre rather than bad. Still not sure I'll buy this one-- they'll have to really pull out the stops to get me back into a serious buying mood.
Fair enough on both Polly and Karasu's points. I'm not crazy about IV, really don't like the III-style linking of standard specials into super moves, and don't like the dopey voice actors (besides our lord and master Vegamoto, of course)...and yet, for all that, I think I get the same pleasure out of watching people play Street Fighter so much again that I get out of convincing someone to play a favorite but non-mainstream game. "I'm not playing it right now, but I'm glad someone else is enjoying it and can sing its praises," or something like that.
edit: Kofoguz, I think new threads should always be started. Go for it! I worry about good conversations getting swallowed by Random Threads or going unnoticed.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Wed 30 Sep 01:12] |
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"Re(3):TGS vids" , posted Fri 25 Sep 05:44:
"Re(2):T HAWK" , posted Mon 28 Sep 10:08
