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| nobinobita 568th Post
 
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|  "Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Fri 24 Jul 07:15
Didn't mean to derail the DQ thread. Since this is a topic dear to my heart I thought it deserved its own thread. What is the last game that impressed you with its art/graphics/anything visual?
Here's what folks had to say so far, in chronological order:
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Exodus: you mean a modern game, right? because I have lots of examples of "wow, they did that with THIS hardware?"
I'd say muramasa, SF III, Ico, those all impressed me at the time (muramasa is contemporary, so).
Otherwise, I can certainly point to aspects I like, such as BioShock's production design, The Unfinished Swan's spare world...
actually come to think of it, lots of indies impress me. the misadventures of p.b. winterbottom, everything by amanita design, blueberry garden, etc.
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chazumaru: Speaking of Bioshock, I am convinced it influenced Kaneko for the (wonderful) outfit designs and general "retro Sci-Fi" atmosphere of the new Megaten game shown in this week's Famitsu.
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KTallguy: The last game that made me go "wow this game has nice art" is Demon's Souls.
It has got this totally oppressive, Diablo 1 style artwork, with some gore when it needs to. I really like the look and design of the enemies in the game, they take some generic designs and give them a lot of life with good animation and small touches here and there. Some of the bosses are Shadow of the Colossus style huge, and I like the designs for all of them. I also really like the armor and weapon designs, and the attack animations.
The environments impressed me the most though. Some of them are very beautiful, and some of them are just ugly as sin, but in a way that made me feel: "Jesus, I'm so disgusted and feel so oppressed, I'm not sure I want to go any further". They made me feel exactly how the protagonist must feel slogging through swamps made of god knows what.
Technically, there are a lot of problems with the engine, such as the lack of shadows and AA, and some silly ragdoll effects that can break the mood. But I was enjoying myself too much to notice.
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Maou: Discussion of Dragon Quest and visual design in the same thread? I love the Cafe!
For my most recent "wow's" in response to game art are the usual refrain from me: flOwer, Colossus, flOwer, Wish Room/Hotel Dusk, flOwer, Braid, flOwer, and flOwer. Since I'm still bumbling through Wish Room and love graphic adventures, I'd say I'm especially stuck on its outstanding black-and-white style (or is there a better word for it, nobi?) and animation-frame style art.
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exodus: huh, I didn't have that feeling at all, to me it seemed really generic (and more than that, clunky). There's always been something mythically interesting to me about Tower of Druaga-style clunky games, but it's more of a "why do people like this?" fascination than anything else.
I played it a bit at E3, and came away feeling pretty certain it would bomb. The graphics didn't really do it for me either. curious!!
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Pollyana: You guys gotta remember that Brandon doesn't like traditional RPGs. (Unless something has changed?)
...
A few quick things...
I thought Demon's Souls looked kind of generic at first, but once I saw more of it I began to appreciate its kind of...bleak look. The game has already beat the odds by gaining as much attention as it has.
...
I have mixed feelings about the new SMT, but I don't want to get into that in this thread.
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KTallguy: Demon's Souls is a weird beast. I thought it looked clunky too at first (and at E3), but it's one of those games that looks not-fun to play if someone is not good at it. Once you get good at it, the action is pretty great, with great backstab kills and all.
Also I can completely understand why someone would think it feels generic, and the first area sort of gives off that vibe, but as you continue and more areas are unlocked, it starts to shine more.
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exodus: well, it hasn't totally changed, but I do appreciate mid-period traditional RPGs, having finally beaten chrono trigger, and the super bland Brave Story, which was nostalgaic enough for me to get through. I also would've beaten the DS version of FFIII if someone hadn't stolen it. I got pretty far in Crisis Core too, though it's ultimately a bit boring.
For me, it's more about the graphics and the story, which both have to overcome the grinding (and it's nice when there's none necessary) and that's where I have trouble with DQ.
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Demon's Souls is a weird beast. I thought it looked clunky too at first (and at E3), but it's one of those games that looks not-fun to play if someone is not good at it. Once you get good at it, the action is pretty great, with great backstab kills and all.
playing it felt not fun, to me, but I can acnkowledge that there could potentially be more there. I just generally dislike 3D brawlers, and this seemed like a clunkier version of that, so it didn't do it for me. Maybe I'll try to get further into it if it sells poorly and gets discounted. I'm not paying full price for it though, it seems too unlikely to engage me. I dunno!
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| Pollyanna 2728th Post
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| "Re(1):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Fri 24 Jul 08:57
Graphics are important! Well...some element of the visual design is important at least. It doesn't have to be big budget or cutting edge, though.
For the record...for the sake of this post, I'm talking more about in-game type stuff rather than character-design type art.
That aside...
I'm always impressed at how good Armored Core looks. It suffer from obvious shortcomings, and yet the overall feel is so slick that it looks better than tons of games with twice the framerate and polygons. Of course, the music helps.
More recently, though...I was really impressed with the renders in Arc Rise Fantasia. Well, some of them at least. Cecille's face never stopped delighting me with how adorable it was and her dress was very well rendered as well (the way it moved with her attacks...you really got a feel for what kind of material it was made of). The unique "super moves" that the characters did also contributed a lot to their expressiveness. Altogether, the game just looked okay, (and the FMV was TERRIBLE) but the faces were arguable the best "anime-styled" renders I've ever seen.
The FMV in DQIX totally blew me away. I wasn't expecting something that looked that good. It really bridged the gap between 3-D and 2-D art. Er...in the cell-shaded way, I mean. Like, it's become common to use 3-D in place of 2-D animation and have it try to mimic the 2-D look. I've always hated the results, though. It's okay for in-game graphics, but just doesn't replace 2-D.
DQIX totally pulls it off, though. The cut scene that occurs about an hour into the game is probably the best plot-related cinema I've seen in a game. The opening isn't bad either, and both capture Toriyama's new(er) CG look really well.
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| Maou 1741th Post
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| "Re(2):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Fri 24 Jul 12:31:
Thanks, nobi! I was just lamenting that the random thread (or in this case, DQ derail) tendency wasn't giving enough conversations their due, and this one deserves it.
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Graphics are important! Well...some element of the visual design is important at least. It doesn't have to be big budget or cutting edge, though.
I agree! There's a difference between high production values (what many people simplistically think of when they think of "good" graphics) and good visual design. This is why this current generation of home consoles, largely dominated by American games at this point (360 in particular), holds so little appeal to me, just because American game design seems to so rarely get beyond this "space marine/military" drek that's infested the country since Doom or so. Like, these stupid space marines look pretty realistic in their grimy brown and gray metal corridors, but they're still stupid space marines in the same damn corridors they were running down in 1991.
Which of course is why Braid was a nice breath of fresh air. I didn't really care that much about the actual gameplay, even, but the design was pretty, and I enjoyed the visual lightening of the "title screen" as it surged together with music in the very beginning as Tim moves to the right into the level selection area.
FlOwer, of course, I'm just crazy about, probably the best art-gameplay integration I've seen this generation, and probably ever.
I really really do like Wish Room/Hotel Dusk's style, too. Outstanding, bold direction that manages to feel so natural despite being so unusual, which is a good sign, I figure.
Edit: Polly, speaking of Armored Core design, I wish that IC's Ollie would post here, I bet he could wax poetic about the series' art (and most other things). I don't even play AC, but his enthusiasm is infectuous.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 24 Jul 12:40] |
| exodus 4199th Post
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| "Re(3):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Sat 25 Jul 02:49
quote:
This is why this current generation of home consoles, largely dominated by American games at this point (360 in particular), holds so little appeal to me, just because American game design seems to so rarely get beyond this "space marine/military" drek that's infested the country since Doom or so. Like, these stupid space marines look pretty realistic in their grimy brown and gray metal corridors, but they're still stupid space marines in the same damn corridors they were running down in 1991.
not to get too much into the japan v america thing, but this happens to everyone. japan has generic androgynous character, america has generic space marines. america has corridors or open worlds, japan has invisible walls and inane gating. I think both have serious issues with creativity right now, but I do think there's actually more creativity coming out of the U.S. both in terms of game design and visual design. Unfortunately the two are usually not married to each other. Fallout 3 has really good design, and feels like a proper american RPG. but it's quite ugly. bioshock has great architecture and visual design, and the story intrigues, but it's pretty boring to play for more than a few hours.
all the best visual design in my opinion is coming from the indie community, which is much more prolific in the west than in japan. I love the doujin scene, obviously, but those games tend to only fall into two or three categories, visually. on the western side, there's a greater dynamic.
basically I'm just trying to say that I think the notion of america as an inferior place to design is outdated. It's japan that needs to catch up at this point, and I'm one of those who grew up on japanese games, and whose favorite console is still the pc engine. these days, japan is simply not making the best games out of the three major game-making regions.
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| karasu99
180th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(4):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Sat 25 Jul 03:21
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basically I'm just trying to say that I think the notion of america as an inferior place to design is outdated. It's japan that needs to catch up at this point, and I'm one of those who grew up on japanese games, and whose favorite console is still the pc engine. these days, japan is simply not making the best games out of the three major game-making regions.
I'll second this, although I think realistically that it's all three regions that are behind in terms of art direction, as well as game engine design, general concept, etc. Which is sad because just a few years back (well, okay, closer to the beginning of this decade, which we're now at the end of, heh) I felt as though the tide was turning. I'll also say that alongside doujin game makers and indie developers, there are also some pretty interesting designs and concepts being brought to market in the downloadable game side for all three major consoles now, even though there are still plenty of retreads, rereleases, and space marines there as well. Maou's favorite, flOwer, is a good example of this.
The problem is, it's really, really risky to deviate from a design that's been shown to work for the sake of appealing to the tiny minority of people like us here who want something different.
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| Maou 1745th Post
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| "Re(6):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Sat 25 Jul 05:14:
Brandon, I definitely agree with your point about US indie games having a stronger aesthetic than Japanese doujin (all moe all the time, it seems...and doesn't hurt that I haven't seen anything good on Japanese TV since Bebop). There's tons of creativity there, but Braids and flOwers aside, I think that overall, US games' visual design is still pretty stuck in the Hollywood marines nonsense. The US is certainly doing a better job in game design with current home systems, I agree, even if the graphic design is so bad that I don't want to play any of them.
But as we've probably talked about before, I would be very hard pressed to say that a good portion of America has a better sense of visual design or aesthetic than Japan. The care and attention to detail and visually distinctive ads, PR, company logos, packaging, anything...it's all so different in the US, I find, and I think this includes games by and large. US indie games may be better, and there of course is plenty of generic character design in Japanese games; there are plenty of outstanding American graphic designers, as well, but the volume is so much smaller, I get the distinct feeling that it's just not as much of a priority for most people by any stretch of the imagination. Whether or not one is a fan (and I am!) of Amano Yoshitaka, for instance, I think one wouldn't see that kind of artistic "risk" in selection of character designer happening in six flagship mainstream US games in a million years. This isn't meant to be a plug for or against one culture or another, but I think that in this area, one of two countries seems to be more interested in it.
edit: Oh, Ish is right, Mirror's Edge is awesome-looking. I wish there were more risktakers like that.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 25 Jul 05:19] |
| A Beholder
34th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(1):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Sat 25 Jul 10:01:
Monster Hunter, from the tip of my gunlance down to the piggy at my feet. The monsters, armor, everything is just so fun and the attention to detail amazing. It's the perfect combo of a base in reality and fantasy design.
Being slapped by a wyvern and rolling across the floor brings back nostalgic memories of Secret of Mana, where werewolves flash kick me across the room.
Hmmm I just read Dr. Slump again, so Toriyama's Dragon Quest designs are crawling back into my head. There's few things out there as iconic as that absent, yet determined stare of a slime.
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basically I'm just trying to say that I think the notion of america as an inferior place to design is outdated. It's japan that needs to catch up at this point, and I'm one of those who grew up on japanese games
I grew up sticking floppy discs into windowless PC's to go on D&D adventures and straining my eyes painting biceps on 28mm miniatures.
America is still an inferior place when it comes to videogame design, because videogames is not where America's best artists go.
I love Frank Frazetta's fantasy paintings, I love the world that Dark Crystal and Labyrnth created, but no western game actually has these styles.
The closest thing I've found to Frazetta barbarians is Capcom's Shadow of Rome (not even the goddamn Conan game looks like Frazetta!! Do you know how infuriating that is?), the closest thing to Labrynth's goblins are in Final Fantasy 9.
The closest game to capturing that deadly gygaxian dungeon crawl atmosphere is Demon's Souls. etc. etc.
I think that's the main difference between Japan and the West, Japan actually gets their awesome artists in videogames. Comparing Western games to the art design in other western media, the games are not the best of the west, and should not be used to judge western design by.
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. Whether or not one is a fan (and I am!) of Amano Yoshitaka, for instance, I think one wouldn't see that kind of artistic "risk" in selection of character designer happening in six flagship mainstream US games in a million years.
you may be interested to know that one of the most influential old fogeys in western fantasy literature, Michael Moorcock (created Elric, the skinny albino magic swordsman), is a huge fan of Amano and said his artwork best represents his writing.
http://www.nippon2007.us/GOH/Moorcock_tribute_to_amano.php
[this message was edited by A Beholder on Sat 25 Jul 11:00] |
| Pollyanna 2732th Post
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| "Re(2):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Sun 26 Jul 09:22
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Monster Hunter, from the tip of my gunlance down to the piggy at my feet. The monsters, armor, everything is just so fun and the attention to detail amazing. It's the perfect combo of a base in reality and fantasy design.
This is why I'm so sad that Capcom canceled MH3 for PS3. On the PSP, the characters/monsters look so detailed, despite being relatively low-poly and have so much personality in their animations, despite having a relatively low frame rate. Imagine what they could do with more powerful hardware!
I won't get too much into the Japan vs America thing, because I think it's silly. On a positive note, however, congratulations to America for making this argument possible, where it wouldn't have been a few years ago.
I thought the environments in Bioshock were really top notch. The overall design in the game was great, but the mediocre enemy renders with choppy frame rates really ruined the experience for me.
That and I have a very low tolerance for first-person. It's absolutely NOTHING like actually seeing something in first-person and comes with so many little things that get on my nerves. Mirror's Edge is a big offender. That game would've been great in 3rd person. Ah, but... again, trying to be positive, I think Killzone 2 handled things much more naturally.
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| Sensenic 1685th Post
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| "Re(5):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Mon 27 Jul 19:11
First of all I must say that I'm sort of a graphics whore for any game exhibing a characteristic art style. Anything that looks a little bit different, innovative or "personal" will at least interest me.
Thus I could list lots and lots of games here... Jet Set radio, Killer 7, Ookami, Loco Roco, House of the dead: Overkill... And many more I'm forgetting or that I put in the accidentally deleted before uploaded post yesterday. x_x
It is one of the reasons I got Project Rub too.
Answering literally to the thread title, I guess I'd have to say Valkyria Chronicles. Its "Canvas Engine" whatsoever was so beautiful I put quite a few hours into it, and watched the cutscenes of the chapters I didn't reach (I be slow and the game mine was not) from my roommate's saves, almost only for the eye-candy, despite its rather stereotypical anime-ish plot.
That's one reason I felt really disappointed when I learnt the sequel is going to the it-prints-money-nº2-in-Japan PSP, dropping the engine on the way (and looking even more generic-animu to boot. Setting's a high-school now, for valkyria's sake!).
The similar styled cutscenes are also the one reason that makes me want to play through PSP version of FFT, despite me sucking at tactic RPGs.
And I guess, as my tag would let you know, Flower, Sun and rain counts in too. Its 3D are friggin' fugly, but kind of charming at the same time. And the character portraits are really neat. Waiting for The Silver Case now.
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No mention of SF IV? For shame!
Well, yup, it's true that it does have a lot of graphical "personality".
And, as of now, I am following 3 games that atract me quite a lot, art-wise:
- One is Square's new FF cash-in, and old-school RPG lovin' Matrix Software's new game after the FFDS remakes, Hikari no 4 senshi. It somehow looks both so low-key and so beautiful at the same time... Some screenshots look like they were aquarella paintings (or whatever technique, far from an painting expert here). Particularly that uh... round-holed? tree.
Must add that the website itself was quite beautiful too while it had the counter on it (they all have counter teaser sites now... -_- ), with the dragon and the 4 warriors slowly getting drawn first, and painted later. I wish they kept the whole animation somewhere. Yoshida fan.
- Speaking of western games getting better at art styles, another one is, of course, A Boy and His Blob remake-reimagine. HUG BUTTON!
- And finally a recent discovery: What do you get when you mix Loco Roco/Patapon + Heart of Darkness + Free exploration shooter + French Canadian professional artist/animator?
Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet.
Wow.
貧乳神・・・
"Don't give me that crap about real life. There ain't no such animal."
-Felix Leiter-
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| Pollyanna 2735th Post
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| "Re(4):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Mon 27 Jul 21:15
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While I'm also kinda bummed that MH3 is a Wii game and not a PS3 game, have you seen screens of it? The game looks absolutely gorgeous for what the hardware can do! I don't blame them for going where Japan's userbase is, and it certain does seem to be shaping up well... but I do wish it happened to be on a system that could handle HD resolutions.
I was pretty "meh" about it until I saw the most recent (?) trailer. Of course I'm going to love it. I'm crazy about MH and it looks great...but still, it's just a fraction of how awesome a PS3 or 360 version would be.
I wonder if they released the game (the original that doesn't exist, not the Wii one) on 360 as well as PS3 and emphasized the online component if it would cause a surge in popularity outside of Japan.
Online was more necessary in the original MH than it is in the portable ones (which are "friendly" enough to play alone), but the PS2 wasn't seen as an online gaming platform. Neither is the Wii, for that matter.
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I haven't played Killzone, but I have played Mirror's Edge and I'm forced to disagree. A big part of what makes the game fun is the sense of immersion you get from being in 1st person. I've fallen down millions of bottomless pits in games, but I think ME is the only game where I've actually cringed and closed my eyes just before impact.
I understand what you're saying, but my problem isn't that it's in first person, it's the way that companies handle first person on the whole. I think putting it in FP was a perfectly clever idea, but for me, it doesn't make it immersive. In fact, it's just the opposite.
"First person" in games doesn't simulate "looking through the character's eyes". It's more like you just can't see your character. The way the camera is positioned...the way you move around...the "range" on what you touch...if this is simulating a person, this person has a bad leg, is running inside a cardboard box and looking through a tiny hole with the wrong prescription glasses. Oh, and sometimes they have hands on the end of sticks that they poke out at things.
This is MY problem more than the game's though...seeing as most players seem to accept these things as a part of first-person games (or don't think about it). I probably should have said "I would have enjoyed it perfectly well if it was in 3rd person". I don't know that the game itself would be particularly improved.
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| Sensenic 1688th Post
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| "Re(5):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Tue 28 Jul 00:08:
I was forgetting about Fez too.
One of the most hyped "independent" -not so really, since they started a company for it, but eh- games out there (maybe there with Braid?), but so far I think it's living up.
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"First person" in games doesn't simulate "looking through the character's eyes". It's more like you just can't see your character. The way the camera is positioned...the way you move around...the "range" on what you touch...if this is simulating a person, this person has a bad leg, is running inside a cardboard box and looking through a tiny hole with the wrong prescription glasses. Oh, and sometimes they have hands on the end of sticks that they poke out at things.
I completely understand your point, and the character not being able to see himself when looking down was one of the things that bothered most from FPS's back in the day.
Not much sense of immersion they didn't give, no.
But I have to say that with ME, they did work on it: Faith's still a little bit too "rigid", but you can see her body if you look down (or in front of her in jumps and so on), and they did widen the horizontal Field of View to simulate that of a human, even if the image gets slightly deformed in the process due to the screen being still short (even widescreen) and flat and not... eh, 130-sth degrees around your actual eyes.
Of course whether that succeeds or not is up to the user's perception (didn't quite work with me either, to tell the truth), but you have to give 'em that: they did try.
Maybe reimagining VR goggles could be a good next step for FPS's?
PS: FPS syndrome... Great video, had seen it a couple of days ago.
EDIT: Grammer vs Grammer
貧乳神・・・
"Don't give me that crap about real life. There ain't no such animal."
-Felix Leiter-
[this message was edited by Sensenic on Tue 28 Jul 00:15] |
| nobinobita 574th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(3):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Tue 28 Jul 03:26
Wow, so many great responses on art! I'm in BBS heaven!
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Graphics are important! Well...some element of the visual design is important at least. It doesn't have to be big budget or cutting edge, though. I agree! There's a difference between high production values (what many people simplistically think of when they think of "good" graphics) and good visual design.
That's so refreshing to hear! I always die a little inside when people discuss graphics only in terms of raw processing power and technical details.
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This is why this current generation of home consoles, largely dominated by American games at this point (360 in particular), holds so little appeal to me, just because American game design seems to so rarely get beyond this "space marine/military" drek that's infested the country since Doom or so. Like, these stupid space marines look pretty realistic in their grimy brown and gray metal corridors, but they're still stupid space marines in the same damn corridors they were running down in 1991.
Don't worry, I don't think you hate America! :p
For some reason stating a preference for one culture's sense of art design over another always sparks heated debate. You can say "I think Italian food is tops!" and that's fine, but when you say "I love Japanese art the best!" then you're closed minded (ya weeaboo!)!
Actually, the conversation here regarding that issue has been remarkably thoughtful and tempered. It's definitely a topic I'd like to get into more (maybe on another thread!), but it's something I gotta tread carefully over.
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Which of course is why Braid was a nice breath of fresh air.
I really need to give Braid a shot. I was initially a bit turned off by its prose style, and the game really lost me when I went to the official site and it stated "Braid treats your time and attention as precious." (@__@)
Buuuuut... i really should give it a shot. I mean, it's a milestone for indie games. Love it or hate it, it's an IMPORTANT game!
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all the best visual design in my opinion is coming from the indie community, which is much more prolific in the west than in japan. I love the doujin scene, obviously, but those games tend to only fall into two or three categories, visually. on the western side, there's a greater dynamic.
I don't think it's right to say the western indie gaming scene is far more prolific or varied. If anything, the Japanese scene is so prolific that there are scores of games that tend to look similar. And yet there are so many unique gems out there too, like Cave Story, Arm Joe, any of Kenta Cho's awesome Shmups, Vanguard Princess, countless porno games with incredible, incredible art... there's so much beatiful and distinct indie ware out there it makes my head spin thinking about how much time and skill and passion was invested into these games that were released for free, with very little promotion of the creators, with very little ego attached to the project, where the focus is on the game itself, and the love of the form rather than the charms and cleverness of the author. Even if you hate the style and feel of these games (I'm not saying you do, i just mean in general) you can't deny that there's alot of them, and for the most part, the creators really pour their hearts into them.
Japan is a very creative nation in general. For whatever reason, it's easy to dismiss ("they're just copiers", "it all looks the same" etc), but the art communities there are just incredible. Seriously, it's INSANE how much they can accomplish on their free time, with no funding.
And of course, America can be a creative powerhouse as well.
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I love Frank Frazetta's fantasy paintings, I love the world that Dark Crystal and Labyrnth created, but no western game actually has these styles.
The closest thing I've found to Frazetta barbarians is Capcom's Shadow of Rome (not even the goddamn Conan game looks like Frazetta!! Do you know how infuriating that is?), the closest thing to Labrynth's goblins are in Final Fantasy 9.
The closest game to capturing that deadly gygaxian dungeon crawl atmosphere is Demon's Souls. etc. etc.
Wow. Very well articulated! I do agree that there's a disparity between the truly great American art of the past, and the game art of the present. I'm constantly amazed at how many artists I meet that are not familiar with Frank Frazetta, Jack Kirby or Barry Windsor Smith! I've talked to alot of older artists about this. They tend to feel that the American youth of today aren't really connected to the great artists of our past (Frazetta, Kirby, Wyeths etc) because they are too focused on being "original", which is often an excuse for "limited". I could go on about this for hours...
I will say that there have been attempts in the past to bring in very accomplished contemporary artists into games. Like 9: The Last Resort which was based around the incredible, surrealistic, "low brow" art of Mark Ryden, one of the great painters of our time.
Great insight on Demon's Souls. I couldn't have put it better. Demon's Souls is the closest thing you're going to get to playing a classic, gritty, "dirty", Dungeon's and Dragons type pen and paper RPG in realtime. They really hit the mark with the mood and the visual style and most importantly, how it all comes together with the gameplay. Just because it's a Japanese game does not mean it can't present a great "western" flavored fantasy experience. Those things transcend cultures.
Also, are there any American games that you can get behind, art wise? Like what about Doug Tennapel's creations. Earthworm Jim and Skull Monkies were undeniably beautiful. And I'm sure you played "Eye of the Beholder" back in the day!
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| sfried 394th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(7):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Tue 28 Jul 14:38:
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Could you please list some good examples?
Kaiko and Rainbow Arts was one of the prominent sceners who would eventually end up making Apidya and Turrican (the later company becoming the now-late Factor 5 studios).
Shin'En is another German company following on the footsteps of Japanese game design. They may have started a little rough, but Iridion II was when they started getting "it" and their latest title in the series, Nanostray 2, is pretty good and gets pretty much all of the fundamentals of a solid Salamander clone (with Gradius V asthetics).
Without the demo-scene, there would also be no Star Fox, as Argonaut Software (and chief programmer Dylan Cuthbert, who would later found Q-Games, the developers of Fat Princess) would get their GameBoy debut with the much unheard of X (which was only released in Japan). Not to mention Introversion Software and their work on Darwinia had their roots in the demoscene.
Once again, the definition of "Western" has been highly skewed to mean largely "American". It is a mistake to ignore the European market, especially when it could be the last bastion of Elite-likes, Descent-likes, space-sims, and submersible-sims out there. Heck, I still play Independence War and it's sequel. They all have their roots as simple demo makers and it got them pretty far. It's not that different from doujin-scene success stories such as the likes of French-Bread.
It would also be a mistake to say that all Western artists are either from Latin and/or North American and completely ignoring Alessandro Barbucci and Barbara Canepa and their work on Sky Doll. The Italian's are out there along with the French when it comes to creating some really compelling stuff. It's just an entirely different scale.
[this message was edited by sfried on Tue 28 Jul 15:28] |
| Maou 1758th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(8):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Tue 28 Jul 23:08:
quote:
I don't think it's right to say the western indie gaming scene is far more prolific or variedBefore you get me started with the whole "Oh but the Japanese scene really is so much more prolific", I'd also like to point out Jeremy Parish's interesting insight on UK's Retro Gamer magazine and Japan's Continue quarterly.
See, they're not that different. Lots of unsung talented folks everywhere with grassroots heritage.
Sorry if it sounds like a rant, but I'm sick and tired of all these weeaboo oriented East vs. West arguments I've been seeing in games as of late. (Taking political classes during the summer doesn't help. Now if you would excuse me...)
Great post above about all the variety contained within the simple term "West," sfried. On the other hand, don't let an (American?) politics course cause you to fall into the trap the internet has of late of assuming that anyone who (regardless of origin) points to something that Japan may do well is just some dumb 15 year-old American nerd with awful Japanese. Yeah, the internet backlash against these types is understandable, but it's sort of given rise to a shrill, ignorant assumption whenever things Japanese are discussed. ("You don't want your movies dubbed or your games rewritten for the international release? You must be some Japan-obssessed nerd."-type stuff.) No sense in cutting off discussion just because lamer people have had a lamer version of it before, eh?
More complicated views are better, and so I like being reminded that the "West" could mean three different continents thanks to your post. If it's Western vs. Eastern design and not American vs. Japanese, it seems like the Western scene is necessarily going to be at least as robust if not more so thanks to the variety of countries...unless there's a thriving Korean indie scene I just don't know about that doesn't just imitate Japanese design?
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Tue 28 Jul 23:24] |
| exodus 4206th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(8):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Wed 5 Aug 05:29
quote:
You only mentioned those developers in this thread just now, actually.
hmm, weird. I can't find evidence that I mentioned them either, though I clearly remember typing that stuff! Oh well. They're mentioned now :P
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, actually. The UK specifically used to have an actual "style" that you could see. Consider the bitmap brothers games like Chaos Engine, or indeed most high-end amiga games. They had detailed bitmappy graphics, and nice animation - but in the transition to consoles, the UK's unique character seems to have gotten lost.
And I do think that may be because the demoscene lost some of its relevance to the game world, because previously, all these awesome graphics techniques were coming from there on the PC/Amiga, but as the industry moved console-ward, the demoscene guys became less relevant. Just some speculation.
It is a shame though - the only really european-style games I can identify are the french ones. Not that there's anything (in particular) wrong with the french!
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| nobinobita 580th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(10):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Fri 7 Aug 02:23
Sfried, thanks for the links. I hope you took my request for links as a polite request and not a challenge! I figured you had lots of passion and insight into games outside of the regular scope of N. America and Japan, and I'm glad you've shared some of that knowledge here.
I'm actually a big follower of most of the stuff you mentioned. I loved Turrican and the early games of Michel Ancel and I've brought up Sky Doll every time there's been a mention of interesting comics on this board. I'm also very big on pushing Enrique Fernandez on people. Check him out! His art is incredible! He's both skilled and fun. I think he's one of the best new comics artists of the last decade.
I think when people here discuss things in terms of "east" and "west" (at the very least when Exodus and I threw around the term) they're using the terms very generically for their convenience in making a quick, casual post on the internet. Buuuuut... sounds like we already got over that hump.
quote:
See, they're not that different. Lots of unsung talented folks everywhere with grassroots heritage.
That's exactly what I was hoping to convey earlier. I wasn't saying Japan is the best, just that one shouldn't diminish the achievements of one culture in order to lift up another. This seems to happen all the time, I guess it’s our tribal instincts? I'd love to live in a world where artists could be seen within their cultural context, but still be judged on their individual merits. As it stands, words like "American" or "Japanese" or "Western" come fully loaded with all sorts of expectations.
quote:
Samorost really struck me with its dreamlike style. The art style, in particular reminds me a lot of Rodney Matthews design.
samorost is pretty much the neatest looking thing in general.
Samorost is beautiful. Amanita design is doing WONDERFUL things. Their animation style really reminds me of the animated cult classic Fantastic Planet. I don't think this is a coincidence since Fantastic Planet was a French and Czechoslovakian co-production. Both nations have a rich art and animation history. If anyone is interested in a good starting point for Czech animation, do a youtube search for Jan Svankmajer. In fact, if you're interested in Eastern European animation in general, check out Soyuzmulzfilm. They're like, simultaneously the Disney, Warner Bros, Ghibli, Aardman and Brother's Quay of Russia. They've produced such an incredible variety of animation over the years, ranging from art flicks (as animation fans tend to expect from this part of the globe) to golden era hollywood style animation. Their work has been fairly popular throughout Asia, but they're pretty unheard of in the US outside of the odd Yuri Norstein movie they've produced here and there.
quote:
It is a shame though - the only really european-style games I can identify are the french ones. Not that there's anything (in particular) wrong with the french!
One thing I really appreciate about French artists in comics and animation is that they don't have a chip on their shoulder about foreign influence. They are able to take the best parts of art styles from the world over, and incorporate it into something new and unique.
For instance, the student films from Gobelins (widely regarded as the best animation school in the world) show a deep knowledge of classically American and Japanese animation techniques:
http://www.gobelins.fr/galerie/animation/
Or Lascars, a hit animted short series that recently became a feature film:
http://www.catsuka.com/news_detail.php?id=1243363067
It recalls both 90s American TV animation (Rugrats, Hey Arnold and other Nick Toons stuff) as well as the ideosyncratic movements and flat but volumetric drawings of the Yoshinori Kanada school of animation.
From the little experience I've had in France, it seems to me that the artists and the consumers there are more interested in the intrinsic quality of a work, rather than labeling it by its nationality.
Here's another example, an amazing Naruto Dojin fighting game made in flash:
http://www.narutomini.com/
The art style is very hipster friendly, it's the kind of stuff that young John K (Ren and Stimpy) fans are producing in the states, but it's lovingly employed to bring Naruto characters to life. I can't tell ya how many people I know that really liked Naruto, but then changed their minds once they started seeing what other kinds of folks were into it. There seems to be alot less of this unlearning from France, and I really dig that. Cos nothing is hipper than just being honest with what you like!
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"Re(7):Last game with art that impressed you" , posted Sat 25 Jul 07:03
"Re(6):Re(10):Last game with art that impresse" , posted Wed 18 Nov 20:12
