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| sfried 382th Post
 
Silver Customer
  
    
|  "Combos for beginner levels: Where to start?" , posted Tue 21 Jul 08:16
More fighting game confession time. (I know Ed's gonna hate me for this.)
I recently got to run Vanguard Princess (yeah, I know... ) on my computer since I've been looking for a good fighter to practice my motion commands with. (I'm too poor to even buy a PS2 at the moment, and VG is free to boot.) I've beaten Easy (no contiues) and Normal (2) with Haruka and know her basic moveset, but I have yet to learn how the assists come into play. But that's not the reason why I downloaded it in the first place...
I've been trying to learn what's the basic rule in creating basic combos. I've heard VG is more in line with the "old-school" mentality of fighters, so it might just be my thing since I've had difficulty adjusting to most Arc System Works title (possible exception is Hokuto). I tend to be more methodical that reactionary, but I've been trying to get out of that scrub mentallity of being too turtely. The trouble is, I don't know how to start with my offence.
Do most combos usually start with the launcher? I sused to have that implication that combos were a string of special moves, but that didn't prove to be the case once I caught on. What are the most basic normals one should remember when making a combo? I've learned the basic throw because of Ed (and I'm trying to still master how to execute that when I need it the most), but are there special ones that toss people in particular directions? I know most normals also have priority over other attacks, but is there a correlation between a  and a  in terms of their quickness (i.e. do heavier punches take longer to execute)? Sweeps seem to be cruicial from what I've seen, too.
Also, most people interpret the combo as having "ended" once the character falls to the ground and recovers, which isn't how I've usually seen it. My basic example from the above game:
 
(Shoryuken motion lands some distance between me and attacker. At this point the attacker is down.)
  (Mid-range attack as attacker is getting up.)
  (Set-up)
 (Long range attack with medium charge time)
I hope I'm interpreting this right...
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Replies: |
| hikarutilmitt 498th Post
Gold Customer
 
| "Re(1):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Tue 21 Jul 08:42
quote:
More fighting game confession time. (I know Ed's gonna hate me for this.)
I recently got to run Vanguard Princess (yeah, I know...) on my computer since I've been looking for a good fighter to practice my motion commands with. (I'm too poor to even buy a PS2 at the moment, and VG is free to boot.) I've beaten Easy (no contiues) and Normal (2) with Haruka and know her basic moveset, but I have yet to learn how the assists come into play. But that's not the reason why I downloaded it in the first place...
I've been trying to learn what's the basic rule in creating basic combos. I've heard VG is more in line with the "old-school" mentality of fighters, so it might just be my thing since I've had difficulty adjusting to most Arc System Works title (possible exception is Hokuto). I tend to be more methodical that reactionary, but I've been trying to get out of that scrub mentallity of being too turtely. The trouble is, I don't know how to start with my offence.
Do most combos usually start with the launcher? I sused to have that implication that combos were a string of special moves, but that didn't prove to be the case once I caught on. What are the most basic normals one should remember when making a combo? I've learned the basic throw because of Ed (and I'm trying to still master how to execute that when I need it the most), but are there special ones that toss people in particular directions? I know most normals also have priority over other attacks, but is there a correlation between a and a in terms of their quickness (i.e. do heavier punches take longer to execute)? Sweeps seem to be cruicial from what I've seen, too.
Also, most people interpret the combo as having "ended" once the character falls to the ground and recovers, which isn't how I've usually seen it. My basic example from the above game:
(Shoryuken motion lands some distance between me and attacker. At this point the attacker is down.)
(Mid-range attack as attacker is getting up.)
(Set-up)
(Long range attack with medium charge time)
I hope I'm interpreting this right...
The general convention is that a combo is a set of moves that cannot be blocked once the first attack hits and ends when the character drops and is in a situation where they can block again (sch as when the character has been knocked down, most of the time).
This can be further complicated by some games having a struggle system s you can end up with a combo or a "true" combo like in VF where a combo is still a combo but some part of it can be struggled out of, the true combo being one that is the above: unblockable/unavoidable after hit 1.
Really, combos can be made up of just about anything, including just some type of movement to position yourself for the next hit (again, VF has a lot of these).
Attack quickness and hit type matters a lot simply because sometimes you will be able to wail on lp when a mp won't hit or you can only land a single hp when you could also do 3 lps. Then you have subsystem of damage scaling and juggling to adhere to.
I know it seems an odd choice, but the Street Fighter EX series, specifically EX+@ and EX2+ on the PSone, has an excellent training mode in the home ports that can sort of teach you some of the more strict timing and execution required for a typical 2D fighter. You can then take that and modify how it works based on the engine of the game you play. VF4Evolution on PS2 has an even better one, but that applies to 3D fighters like VF, Tekken and to a lesser extent SC.
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| hikarutilmitt 499th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(3):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Tue 21 Jul 12:40
quote:
I know it seems an odd choice, but the Street Fighter EX series, specifically EX+@ and EX2+ on the PSone, has an excellent training mode in the home ports that can sort of teach you some of the more strict timing and execution required for a typical 2D fighter. You can then take that and modify how it works based on the engine of the game you play. VF4Evolution on PS2 has an even better one, but that applies to 3D fighters like VF, Tekken and to a lesser extent SC.
Once again, I only have a PC at my disposal. Perhaps I might look for Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO for GameCube if I had some cash.
The general convention is that a combo is a set of moves that cannot be blocked once the first attack hits and ends when the character drops and is in a situation where they can block again (sch as when the character has been knocked down, most of the time).So does that mean all combos have to be of the juggling sort? One of the problems I have right now is getting player 2 to attack me in practice mode, since I'm still unsure about which moves are blockable and which ones aren't. (I do play story mode to sort of sniff out those moves based on the ones I seem to get punished for.)
A lot of them will have juggling, but by no means is it necessary. A good portion of the ones in Street Fighter are ground-based and relatively short.
You could always, I dunno, buy/rent/borrow a copy of SFEX+@ and use ePSXe to play it on. CvS2 isn't really a good point to learn combos from because a lot of them are very timing intensive and not always orthodox. The reason I suggested the games I did is because they also teach you execution, which is a large part of comboing.
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| Spoon 1794th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
  
    
    
| "Re(1):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Tue 21 Jul 14:14
quote:
I recently got to run Vanguard Princess (yeah, I know...) on my computer since I've been looking for a good fighter to practice my motion commands with. (I'm too poor to even buy a PS2 at the moment, and VG is free to boot.) I've beaten Easy (no contiues) and Normal (2) with Haruka and know her basic moveset, but I have yet to learn how the assists come into play. But that's not the reason why I downloaded it in the first place...
I've been trying to learn what's the basic rule in creating basic combos. I've heard VG is more in line with the "old-school" mentality of fighters, so it might just be my thing since I've had difficulty adjusting to most Arc System Works title (possible exception is Hokuto). I tend to be more methodical that reactionary, but I've been trying to get out of that scrub mentallity of being too turtely. The trouble is, I don't know how to start with my offence.
Do most combos usually start with the launcher? I sused to have that implication that combos were a string of special moves, but that didn't prove to be the case once I caught on. What are the most basic normals one should remember when making a combo? I've learned the basic throw because of Ed (and I'm trying to still master how to execute that when I need it the most), but are there special ones that toss people in particular directions? I know most normals also have priority over other attacks, but is there a correlation between a and a in terms of their quickness (i.e. do heavier punches take longer to execute)? Sweeps seem to be cruicial from what I've seen, too.
Also, most people interpret the combo as having "ended" once the character falls to the ground and recovers, which isn't how I've usually seen it. My basic example from the above game:
(Shoryuken motion lands some distance between me and attacker. At this point the attacker is down.)
(Mid-range attack as attacker is getting up.)
(Set-up)
(Long range attack with medium charge time)
I hope I'm interpreting this right...
Alright, first thing's first:
Vanguard Princess is a weird game. It doesn't exactly fit into the comboing style of any recent game.
Some more VP specific stuff:
Many moves in Vanguard Princess simply aren't cancellable. Chain combos are limited. Some characters are inherently more combo-friendly than others. Kurumi, in spite of only having one special move, can chain combo her normals from her neutral A. Even if you are using Eri, who has some easy links and can cancel normals into rekkas, your combos will still be relatively short/limited unless you make use of your assist in your combos. Trying to figure out just what combos, given the relative newness of the game and the lack of information, will require both experimentation and some intuition... and maybe luck. This need for discovery may or may not come across as fun to you.
Some fighting game general stuff:
Combos come in all shapes and sizes. You have some standard BnBs that start off of safe attacks or also function as poke strings, and you have some others that start off of bigger, slower moves that you might use either as big punishers or as gambles. In CvS2, a lot of characters can start reliable combos off of crouching jabs/shorts. 3S and SF4 have the whole hitconfirmable poke thing going on, where safe pokes can be converted into big damage on reaction if the attacker has meter. And then you have stuff like Faust's 6HS (a big slow overhead), which starts a dead easy combo that does a ton of damage, and which you can gamble with since it's an overhead. The whole business of launchers is very game-specific: Tekken would seem to have some launchers that are actually good pokes. But don't concern yourself too much with whether or not you NEED to start combos with launchers; it's just a game-specific detail.
I don't really get the last part of what you're asking. A combo is a series of hits dealing inescapable damage starting from the first hit. That definition is fixed. If at some point the thing being combo'd could've escaped from the hits, it's not a combo anymore. Sometimes combos are intentionally broken so that a new combo opportunity with reset damage scaling can be started, but that's getting into something else.
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| sfried 384th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(2):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Tue 21 Jul 14:50
quote:
A lot of them will have juggling, but by no means is it necessary. A good portion of the ones in Street Fighter are ground-based and relatively short.
You could always, I dunno, buy/rent/borrow a copy of SFEX+@ and use ePSXe to play it on. CvS2 isn't really a good point to learn combos from because a lot of them are very timing intensive and not always orthodox. The reason I suggested the games I did is because they also teach you execution, which is a large part of comboing.
Thanks for the thoughts behind the recommendation. I'll try to see where I might find a copy used at a flee market or something, if I could find those around here.
quote:
Some fighting game general stuff:
Combos come in all shapes and sizes. You have some standard BnBs that start off of safe attacks or also function as poke strings, and you have some others that start off of bigger, slower moves that you might use either as big punishers or as gambles. In CvS2, a lot of characters can start reliable combos off of crouching jabs/shorts. 3S and SF4 have the whole hitconfirmable poke thing going on, where safe pokes can be converted into big damage on reaction if the attacker has meter. And then you have stuff like Faust's 6HS (a big slow overhead), which starts a dead easy combo that does a ton of damage, and which you can gamble with since it's an overhead. The whole business of launchers is very game-specific: Tekken would seem to have some launchers that are actually good pokes. But don't concern yourself too much with whether or not you NEED to start combos with launchers; it's just a game-specific detail.
quote:
Some more VP specific stuff:
Many moves in Vanguard Princess simply aren't cancellable. Chain combos are limited. Some characters are inherently more combo-friendly than others. Kurumi, in spite of only having one special move, can chain combo her normals from her neutral A. Even if you are using Eri, who has some easy links and can cancel normals into rekkas, your combos will still be relatively short/limited unless you make use of your assist in your combos. Trying to figure out just what combos, given the relative newness of the game and the lack of information, will require both experimentation and some intuition... and maybe luck. This need for discovery may or may not come across as fun to you.
I see. I'm not a combo heavy/driven player myself, but I am willing to learn the basics. I do like discovering things by myself, and find Vanguard Princess within my reach of time investment (since it's free and already setup in my computer).
Perhaps the netplay should help me get better at it?
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| Professor 2561th Post
MMCafe Owner
     
| "Re(3):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Thu 23 Jul 20:29
If you're trying to practice basic *basic* fighting game combos, it's probably better to try your hands on a Street Fighter clone. One reccomendation is Parotte Fighters, which is another female-based free PC game downloadable from here.
If you're intent on learning from Vanguard Princess, try using Eri on version 1.00 because she can do pretty much everything without the need of assists. That includes buffering, chains, ground combos and juggles. (If you don't know some of these terms, I'd be glad to answer.)
It's better to use practice mode than onｌine play if you just want to learn combos. If your attacks are connecting, the combo count will show up on the screen. If it disappears or turns red, it's stopped connecting.
FYI, there's lots of ways of starting your offense. Youtube has a lot of fighting game videos, and watching them should give you some good clues.
To answer two of your other questions, the strength of the normal attack determines its execution speed, damage, and knockback time. That's to say, stronger normal attacks come out slower, but they're more powerful and they leave the opponent opened up for a longer timeframe.
As for throws, in most games, you can determine the direction by holding left or right.
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| Maou 1742th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(5):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Fri 24 Jul 13:12:
quote:
Also another thing that I might add is that I'm new to this "canceling" buisness, as I'm not often sure how to pull it off, and what advantages I would have over a non-canceled move.
By cancelling do you just mean "two-in-ones," as they're also called? If we're talking about the same principles and terminology as Street Fighter (and sorry if not---it's the only 2D game I play), then cancelling IS the combo ability you're seeking. Like, your move cancels into another in that its retraction doesn't happen...you do a jab and before your guy returns his arm to his side, he's gone straight into a hadouken animation, so if the first jab connects, the next move is guaranteed, as well. But then, maybe this isn't what you meant? I may leave it to experts like the Professor, Spoon, and Eddy, wherever he is.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 24 Jul 13:15] |
| Professor 2564th Post
MMCafe Owner
| "Re(5):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Fri 24 Jul 23:18:
quote:
I'm having trouble running Parotte Fighter for the moment and I swear I'm using the exact same method I used to get Vanguard Princess to run (Extract using WinRAR in Japanese mode; rename folder, executable and .kgt; run in AppLocal).
I have version 1.01, but I'm going to try out this Parotte Fighters game you recommended. What exactly do you mean by "buffering"? I've heard of "chains" before, but I'm not too sure about its definition.
Also another thing that I might add is that I'm new to this "canceling" buisness, as I'm not often sure how to pull it off, and what advantages I would have over a non-canceled move.
Arrgh, I didn't know about that, sorry. This page apparently has a solution with the System locale and user locale, though I don't know if it's worth the trouble or if it'll work for you. Might be better to check the game's promo first and see if it interests you.
"Buffering" is another term for "Cancelling". Personally, I like to call it cancelling.
Cancelling is essencially this: Let's say you hit the opponent with a fierce punch. If you input a special move while you're about to hit the opponent, you can literally "cancel" the rest of the feirce punch's animation (where you pull back your punch), and go straight into doing your special move.
So what does a cancel look like and what's its use? This image should be self explanatory. The top is without cancelling, the bottom is w/cancelling.
[this message was edited by Professor on Fri 24 Jul 23:22] |
| Maou 1744th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(6):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Sat 25 Jul 04:55:
quote:
"Buffering" is another term for "Cancelling". Personally, I like to call it cancelling.
The Professor's explanation sounds good...incidentally, is "buffering" a third English phrase for cancelling? I always assumed it was just cancel=two-in-one, and that buffering must be the same as the negative edge.
Anyway, Iron D's explanation is interesting in that it's a theoretically more advanced idea, the negative edge, even if it's easier to do. Sfried, if you want get what cancelling is on the most basic level, a simple jab into another jab into a shouryuuken will do. As the Professor's explanation shows, you do the second move of the combo so quickly that it activates before the first move retracts. What you'll need to know and experiment with is -which- basic moves (punches, kicks) are cancellable, and not all are. This is totally dependent on the character, though you can usually bet that standing weak and mid punches will work. If you have someone who can cancel a fierce punch, then that's important to know. Similarly, crouching is totally variable. Like a crucial cancel for Ken or Ryuu (but not Sakura) is to do a crouching medium kick into a shouryuuken. Sakura's crouching kick isn't animated in the same way, and can't possibly cancel. Iron D's negative edge is ironically a little easier to do ultimately, in that he's literally using one button input for two different moves to make a fast combo, but learning to do this won't teach you how to do a basic cancel out of a normal punch or kick.
I wish Versus Books were still around, since they have the very best English language explanation for all this in its complexity. And Gamest is gone, too, so...
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 25 Jul 04:59] |
| Maou 1746th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(8):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Sat 25 Jul 05:37:
quote:
Ah, Versus books.I still have, and read, their SFA2 strategy guide. This one book I believe is more responsible for me playing SF competently than any strategy guide I've read anywhere.
Oh yeah. I read the Versus Guide before I ever even bought Zero 2 and played it at home the first time. In between them and my Gamest books, thereis nothing I don't understand! Not that I can do it, since they all make it sound so effortless, but!
Oh, and I think of negative edge as a means of cancelling, it's totally legit and not a different concept, didn't mean to make it sound like it was unrelated. I just remember how at the beginning I would try that but find it a bit hard to branch out...like, I'd punch, do a hadouken motion, then release the punch to do my negative edge, but that didn't get me any better at chaining jabs into shouryuukens and whatnot. It's a totally invaluable way to do cancels, though, you're right. I don't do it enough, which is why I don't do charge characters well, I bet.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 25 Jul 05:39] |
| Toxico 4762th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
 
|  "Re(6):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Sat 25 Jul 07:24:
quote:
"Buffering" is another term for "Cancelling". Personally, I like to call it cancelling.
The terms are quite similar, but they also have proper differences. Buffering is mainly a technique to short cut a cancel to something.
I'll give an easy example in kof terms, because my brain is tired and I don't want to type out actually hard examples of it.
Let's say that you are playing Clark in 02 UM.
+ Cancelling a close standing weak kick with his ultra argentine (DM) would be be :
close standing , 
+ Now, buffering the DM with that weak kick would be :
,
The merit of the buffer would be that you can pull out easier something that would need to be inputted fast and accurately otherwise. In the first example, the DM would have need to be done extremely quickly, but in the second example you don't need to do any quick stick movements at all.
Buffering usually changes with the character you are using, the game you are playing and what you are actually trying to pull out. Canceling is much more simplier, as it's a quite standard concept for almost every hadoken based game.
quote:
This image should be self explanatory
Yes, you use cheats 
目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
Last updated : 08/05/09 (99 personajes)
[this message was edited by Toxico on Sat 25 Jul 07:29] |
| sfried 388th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(7):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Sat 25 Jul 09:19:
quote:
The terms are quite similar, but they also have proper differences. Buffering is mainly a technique to short cut a cancel to something.
I'll give an easy example in kof terms, because my brain is tired and I don't want to type out actually hard examples of it.
Let's say that you are playing Clark in 02 UM.*stuff*
Uh...I didn't quite get all that.
quote:
Anyway, Iron D's explanation is interesting in that it's a theoretically more advanced idea, the negative edge, even if it's easier to do. Sfried, if you want get what cancelling is on the most basic level, a simple jab into another jab into a shouryuuken will do. As the Professor's explanation shows, you do the second move of the combo so quickly that it activates before the first move retracts. What you'll need to know and experiment with is -which- basic moves (punches, kicks) are cancellable, and not all are. This is totally dependent on the character, though you can usually bet that standing weak and mid punches will work. If you have someone who can cancel a fierce punch, then that's important to know. Similarly, crouching is totally variable.
So, in essence, the moves start to execute one after another quicker than it would be to input them one by one, is that right?
Is execution speed a crucial factor in trying to get a combo to work? I know I might have a certain "execution lag time" so to speak since sometimes I'm trying to pull off the specific special off my brain, Then there's that whole issue with trying to fudge with the controls while pulling off the sting; incidently, this is where the problem of "button mashing" occurs (brain not being able to keep up with the fingers).
Right now, I'm trying Eri in Vanguard Princes 1.01, and I don't know if I'm getting this right (since I'm seeing a red number):
  ++++
I'm not sure if speed of execution has anything to do with [the red number appearing], since I'm rather new with using this character. Perhaps I should spend more time until all of her moves become second nature?
[this message was edited by sfried on Sat 25 Jul 11:09] |
| Maou 1747th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(8):Combos for beginner levels: Where to st" , posted Sat 25 Jul 11:35:
Yeah, it's all about speed and whether the opening move of the combo is cancellable. It's not only that the moves execute quicker because they don't fully retract before going into the next one, it's that they are unblockable as a result. Again, sorry I can't speak about Vanguard Princess, but the idea is that if you have a move that is cancellable (and again, not all are, this is where research comes in), you can do it and then do another move (often a hissatsuwaza special) so quickly that the second move literally interrupts the end of the first and is unblockable, by virtue of the first move having "cancel" properties. With a cancel, unlike if you did a jab and then did a hadouken separately, your opponent only has once chance to block (the quicker, easier-to-land jab). A close-range projectile is too dangerous, but if it's coming out of a cancel, there's a bunch of guaranteed damage in someone's face. This is where combos start, and once you have it going, you can connect crazy amounts of things, start juggling, etc. Of course, if the first move is blocked, you're outta luck.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 25 Jul 11:38] |
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Now since you're crouching in order to do the low forward, you are already doing the 
. So while you're crouching you're already doing the 
