3 Button or 4/6 button fighters? - http://www.mmcafe.com/ Forums


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sfried
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"3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Tue 6 Jan 14:31post reply

I could never seem to get my head around the purely weak/strong/fierce setup as opposed to the punching/kicking pairs with different strengths. That's one of the reasons I had difficulty trying to get into games like Asuka Burning 100% (oddly enough, subsequent fighters using this setup also coincided with appealing to those otaku types). Something in my mind can't make sense into equating what basic attack a character can make, especially when switching from one character to another. In other words, it's hard for me to notice a "consistent" pattern with the attacks other than the abstract concept of the weak/strong/fierce, and this is further complicated with special moves. (How come a :qcf: + :button-a: is an entirely different attack from :qcf: + :button-b: ? And how does that even correspond logically to what's going on screen?)

I don't encounter that same problem when playing games with the 4/6 button setup because logically a Shoryuken involves a fist, therefore it would only make sense that the special attack would involve using one of the punch buttons to execute. I just don't see that in 3 button setups, at least to what I've been exposed to.






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Toxico
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"Re(1):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Tue 6 Jan 14:45post reply

quote:
I just don't see that in 3 button setups, at least to what I've been exposed to.



You are being touchy with 3 buttons set ups. Look at Ryuuko or World Heroes, they have both strong & fierce for Kick & punches with that set up. A similar concept to your problem was encountered by me in RB1; the button layout went as "punch, kick & fierce". Fierce could be either punch or kick according to the circunstances or the chain you where using, after craking my head for a while I just thought to myself they just use the attacks that they are more proficent in.

Further poetic inquiring like "how come Heidern's throw is done with punch, but for Ralf is done with kick" was left to those thrusty coņac bottles.







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"Re(1):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Tue 6 Jan 15:25post reply

quote:
I could never seem to get my head around the purely weak/strong/fierce setup as opposed to the punching/kicking pairs with different strengths. That's one of the reasons I had difficulty trying to get into games like Asuka Burning 100% (oddly enough, subsequent fighters using this setup also coincided with appealing to those otaku types). Something in my mind can't make sense into equating what basic attack a character can make, especially when switching from one character to another. In other words, it's hard for me to notice a "consistent" pattern with the attacks other than the abstract concept of the weak/strong/fierce, and this is further complicated with special moves. (How come a :qcf: + :button-a: is an entirely different attack from :qcf: + :button-b: ? And how does that even correspond logically to what's going on screen?)

I don't encounter that same problem when playing games with the 4/6 button setup because logically a Shoryuken involves a fist, therefore it would only make sense that the special attack would involve using one of the punch buttons to execute. I just don't see that in 3 button setups, at least to what I've been exposed to.



First of all, for saying that 3 buttons is the reason why you couldn't get into Asuka XYZ%, you get like a billion points of negative rep.

I've always found ArcSys games to be quite funny when it comes to special moves and the buttons involved with them. After having been with SF for a long time, it felt nuts that QCF+Slash could do one special move, and QCF+HeavySlash wouldn't do any special move at all! After awhile of playing GG, I wholly stopped thinking about any of the buttons in terms of anything but an abstract mapping: I didn't try to think of them in any way that "made sense." HS is HS, for most characters it does more damage than P, etc. Then this whole acclimitization got tossed out the window when I got to play ArcSys' HnK for the first time, because it had weak/heavy punch/kick, which kicked me into my old way of thinking... but doing the same motion with different strengths of punch/kick could result in radically different moves (e.g. Kenshiro's QCF+LP = fireball, QCF+HP = a punch)!

I think I actually played QOH'98 before I got to play Asuka, and I actually felt that the ABC system was perfectly natural. There wasn't any weird conceptual oddity or paradigm jump I needed to play it. It was "ABC" and I was "okay".

Trying to make motions accurately reflect what a character is actually doing in their animation of that move was a big deal back when SF was new, but it was violated fast enough. After all, how does QCB+P look anything like Iori's rekkas? Instead we've got a large number of standardized motions for moves, and moves just get bound to them as people deem fit. In some cases, certain motions actually are significant to how a character is played (not merely charge vs. non-charge! Think like how Baiken's counters are done by a "b,db,d" motion; if she's blocking low and wants to do a counter, failing to do it fast enough will cause her to block high for a moment, and that could be fatal).

So in conclusion I think you need to drink more alcohol, as Toxico did.





Pollyanna
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"Re(2):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Tue 6 Jan 15:43post reply

I don't really think of moves in terms of "punch" or "kick" since most games just have "attack" anyway. There's nothing that says "I need a KICK" in this situation, since every character's punches and kicks are different. I mean, my head works in terms of "I need this kind of attack in this situation", but rather it's a punch or a kick is irrelevant. Classifying in terms of strength gets the point across just fine.

Now Tekken doesn't work for me. "Right" and "left" is completely meaningless, so it just turns into memorization.





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sfried
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"Re(2):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Tue 6 Jan 16:12:post reply

quote:
First of all, for saying that 3 buttons is the reason why you couldn't get into Asuka XYZ%, you get like a billion points of negative rep.

I've always found ArcSys games to be quite funny when it comes to special moves and the buttons involved with them. After having been with SF for a long time, it felt nuts that QCF+Slash could do one special move, and QCF+HeavySlash wouldn't do any special move at all! After awhile of playing GG, I wholly stopped thinking about any of the buttons in terms of anything but an abstract mapping: I didn't try to think of them in any way that "made sense." HS is HS, for most characters it does more damage than P, etc. Then this whole acclimitization got tossed out the window when I got to play ArcSys' HnK for the first time, because it had weak/heavy punch/kick, which kicked me into my old way of thinking... but doing the same motion with different strengths of punch/kick could result in radically different moves (e.g. Kenshiro's QCF+LP = fireball, QCF+HP = a punch)!

This is also the very reason I couldn't get into Guilty Gear. Once they tossed the logic down the window, playing it felt very archaic, if not snobbish to people who "should already know this already". While I understand the principles behind low/high/fierce, finding the equivallent move for another character becomes a task in itself, since there is no correspondence between the buttons other than the "three degrees". If only they made weak attack, for example, be consistently showing any character to make a projectile attack, while strong attacks would incur the use of melee, I could perhaps wrap my head around that stong consistent concepts throughout characters, rather than just a bunch of random assignments with no visual signifier.

By the way, I don't hate ArcSys games. I got into Hokuto, because the setup made sense. Two punches = One megapunch (Launcher), while punch + kick involves a very aggressive piercing attack (Strike). And while the QCFs moves may not have the same move translation, at least there is a basis for each attack (Fireball coming from the hand, punch).





[this message was edited by sfried on Tue 6 Jan 16:15]

Toxico
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"Re(3):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Tue 6 Jan 16:21post reply

quote:
Now Tekken doesn't work for me. "Right" and "left" is completely meaningless, so it just turns into memorization.



I thought that it was "kinda cute", how they attempted to do some sort differences on left handed & right handed fighters. Also they stick to some boxing & other sports rules (left is fast & flexible, right is slower & stronger).

The only true benefit from the system that I have lived is that if you are quick enough to see the throws you will realize the proper escape only by seeing it and not by reading it. There it where some very few exceptions to this.

The rule itself is "throws that are escaped with left (1) have the enemy left hand foward, and throws escaped with right (2) had the enemy right hand foward. 1+2 throw escapes had both enemy hands foward. A similar rule could be applies to escape reversals... By playing the game a lot I learned how to do & escape everything just by watching the game (for example, if the AI did a left left right kick combo, I could properly investigate it later knowing which buttons where used, and was only mystery left was only the command inputs, which are obvious most of the time).

Not to mention that I am left handed, & I played a lefty char, I was usually on every body's nerves just by properly teasing those right handed scrubs (for the record, the easiest way to see a character main hand in tekken bowling).







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Count Hihihi
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"Re(1):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Wed 7 Jan 03:45post reply

I can understand that initially a three button weak, medium and strong setup can cause confusion and feel strange if you are used to what capcom mostly used in their games, but.. why not just get over it and stop whining. What you are doing is restricting yourself from enjoying different kinds of games by refusing to adapt. Silly.

Oh, and the best three button fighter is Galaxy Fight.





sfried
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"Re(2):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Wed 7 Jan 11:17post reply

quote:
I can understand that initially a three button weak, medium and strong setup can cause confusion and feel strange if you are used to what capcom mostly used in their games, but.. why not just get over it and stop whining. What you are doing is restricting yourself from enjoying different kinds of games by refusing to adapt. Silly.
Because I know the setup could be better. And "getting used to it" is just a poor excuse for "yeah, we glossed over that design flaw". I'm not being restrictive. I just find it unfun.

I mean, I don't have problems with the three-button setup per-se, but it's just what they symbolize outside the context of the game: As I said earlier, weak/strong/fierce is an abstract concept with no visual bearing or reference. A generic weak attack for each character will be some completely arbitrary movement as its attack, where as three-button fighters in 3D games at least give you the basis of a "horizontal" or "vertical" movements to go by. Trying to just remotely memorize every single movement for input/effect for each fighter is daunting and unintuitive, whereas going by a point of reference (in this case,a 3D fighter's "horizontal" or "vertical" attacks) is much easier to figure out and execute quickly, not to mention specials can be mapped out with much more logic. It's harder to jump in and play a fighter that has no visual self-explanatory basis for its controls, since figuring out how to perform certain strings gets all boiled down to reading FAQs, and I'd much rather play the game than do that to just successfully perform a simple combo.





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"Re(3):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Wed 7 Jan 12:13post reply

Yeah, let's save the "stop whining" for gamefaqs and actually talk with sfried about the real issues: fighting games only need ONE button, the attack button, like Killer Instinct.* mashmashmash

*huge lie





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sfried
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"Re(4):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Wed 7 Jan 13:31post reply

Maybe I'm really just a fan of the old Capcom layout. I tried playing some Melty Blood and alot of the manuvers are confusing.





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"Re(5):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Thu 8 Jan 02:38post reply

I'll just say some of my favourite games have a 3+1 button layout: Jojo, Tatsunoko, and Samurai Spirits 0/Special.

I don't care for 3,4 or 6 buttons. 3+1 : now we're talking.





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"Re(5):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Thu 8 Jan 03:00post reply

quote:
Maybe I'm really just a fan of the old Capcom layout. I tried playing some Melty Blood and alot of the manuvers are confusing.



I think it's just a matter of familiarity and what you're used to.

I for one think the 6 button layout can be pretty superfluous compared to the 4 button KOF-style layout I'm familiar with. The medium punch and kick buttons, for me, almost seem unnecessary in many cases. But then I've also grown to love (again) the 3+1 layout, as Iggy mentions.





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"Re(6):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Thu 8 Jan 07:58post reply

quote:
I think it's just a matter of familiarity and what you're used to.


This.

For the longest time I couldn't stand using a block/guard button simply because it felt unnatural since every other fighter I played you just hold away/down-away and it blocks. When MK came out unless it was something obvious I usually never thought to hit another button to block and would eat attacks. Same thing was an issue with me and Virtua Fighter until I finally sat down and actively played VF4 on the PS2.

Now I just play with whatever is given to me. Hell, VF is only 3 buttons and only 2 of those are generically used for attacking!





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"Re(7):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Thu 8 Jan 09:02post reply

quote:
ally sat down and actively played VF4 on the PS2.

Now I just play with whatever is given to me. Hell, VF is only 3 buttons and only 2 of those are generically used for attacking!



Remember how VF3 had four buttons? Lolololololololol...


quote:
I for one think the 6 button layout can be pretty superfluous compared to the 4 button KOF-style layout I'm familiar with. The medium punch and kick buttons, for me, almost seem unnecessary in many cases.



See, I think the exact opposite. It always kind annoyed me that so many character in KoF had so many damned command normals, which I always saw as a result of there only being four buttons. If there was a legit six button layout, then those command normals could be mapped to one button, instead of having all of the directions on the stick+C as different attacks.

The best example I can think of to illustrate what I'm saying would be the CvS2 and SvC: Chaos. It was just fucking irritating to have the shotos crouching forward to become a damned command normal. Meanwhile, with the SNK character getting a six button layout in CvS2, many of the C+D attacks simply became fierce punches or roundhouse kicks. Plus, Yama's 214+P move is actually a punch button in all three of its variations instead of one of them being a kick, which just made more sense to me.





Er.....

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"Re(8):3 Button or 4/6 button fighters?" , posted Thu 8 Jan 11:37post reply

Necro in 3S is a good example of a character that really benefitted from having a 6-button layout.

On the ground, he has 12 distinct normals that can be done from a standing position and 8 normals that can be done from a crouching position, as well as UOH and throw. In the air, he has 7 air normals and 3 air command normals.

Not counting UOH and throw (he has two throws, too!), 20 ground normals would be a pain in the ass to do with 3 attack buttons. 4,5,6,1,2,3 = 6 directions available when grounded. 3 x 6 = 18. Yikes. What's more, those normals are all "any time" normals; they can be done any time, not just as part of some particular chain.





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"Poor D..." , posted Fri 9 Jan 07:08post reply

quote:
The best example I can think of to illustrate what I'm saying would be the CvS2 and SvC: Chaos. It was just fucking irritating to have the shotos crouching forward to become a damned command normal.



That's what you get for using shotos. You should have been using Tessa...or Lucky Glauber.





Iron D
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"Re(1):Poor D..." , posted Fri 9 Jan 08:58post reply

quote:
The best example I can think of to illustrate what I'm saying would be the CvS2 and SvC: Chaos. It was just fucking irritating to have the shotos crouching forward to become a damned command normal.


That's what you get for using shotos. You should have been using Tessa...or Lucky Glauber.




Fortunately Lucky Glauber didn't make it into either game...that little bitch.

Speaking of the little bitch, it seems like the American Sports team will 7 times out of 10 be the last team one fights before fighting Rugal in KoF 98, and by that point the difficulty is pretty high. That couple of losers (and Heavy D!) is incredibly hard at that point, and Glauber is the one I have the most trouble with. Seriously, I have more trouble with him than with Rugal himself.

How come the characters who are lowest tiered for competitive play are usually the toughest to beat when played by the computer in almost all fighting games?





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ZamIAm
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"Re(2):Poor D..." , posted Fri 9 Jan 09:25post reply

quote:
Fortunately Lucky Glauber didn't make it into either game...that little bitch.


Just because you see your likeness in him doesn't mean you should call him names.

quote:
Speaking of the little bitch, it seems like the American Sports team will 7 times out of 10 be the last team one fights before fighting Rugal in KoF 98, and by that point the difficulty is pretty high. That couple of losers (and Heavy D!) is incredibly hard at that point, and Glauber is the one I have the most trouble with. Seriously, I have more trouble with him than with Rugal himself.

How come the characters who are lowest tiered for competitive play are usually the toughest to beat when played by the computer in almost all fighting games?


I was under the impression that the USA Sports Team was actually MID tier but we are getting off topic...





Iron D
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"Re(3):Poor D..." , posted Fri 9 Jan 09:58post reply

quote:


I was under the impression that the USA Sports Team was actually MID tier but we are getting off topic...



I was actually referring to the individuals in this case, and Glauber was listed as bottom tier in two different lists that I've seen.





Er.....