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| Iggy 8465th Post
 
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
     
     
     
     
     
|  "The Vampire Savior appreciation thread" , posted Sun 20 Apr 09:15
Vampire Savior is my favorite fighting game ever. Maybe my favorite game.
I go back to it from regularly, and each time I am amazed by the love that crafted the slightest detail, the shades, the tiny animations, the musical brio, and the personality of each character. The ambiance is so unique, a delicate balance of gore and lust mixed in a huge bowl of Tex Avery that always bring a smile on my face.
Therefore, here is my propaganda thread. Feel free to participate.
Vampire is a series most of us think we know, because we have played with Morrigan and Felicia in a crossover or another. Needless to say, these versions had little to do with their original selves.
So, why that version of Vampire?
While Hunter 1 still has some fans, Savior 1 has more and, well, it's my favorite.
The game has been released on several consoles. Some ports are good, some are not, but the PS2 compilation has everything you can dream of, arcade-perfect, and more, so there shouldn't be the slightest hesitation. The loadings are lightening-fast, and the game can even be installed on HD.
Also, as a nice bonus: the compilation hasn't been done by Capcom USA, so the cover art is a gorgeous drawing by Ikeno, not a bewildering fanart by someone from Udon.
But what kind of game is it? And why is it different?
First and foremost, even though Vampire is the series that created the chain combo system, none of them is a combo game: you have to read your opponent’s mind, and each mistake can cost you a lot of energy.
Each character is really different from the other, and it isn’t a game where you can select at random and use some general aggressive or defensive tactic whoever your character is. One of the (numerous) failures of Capcom Fighting Jam was that the Vampire characters roughtly felt the same (compared to the stiffness of the rest of the cast), and even nerfed, they dominated. On the other hand, in Savior, nearly each character seems to come from a different game. Most players specialize in one or two of them, rarely three.
One of the particular features of Savior is that the fights are by downs, not by rounds: you aren’t healed when you deplete your opponent’s life, and that makes comebacks much more difficult. You can’t just surrender a round and store some gauge for the final round: the game is very unforgiving.
What makes the game quite different from SF2 is that you jump a lot. Several characters are safer in the air then on the ground, and nearly half of the cast has some sort of flight, hovering or multiple-jump feature. The trouble is that none of them has the same, so you really have to learn the particularities of your character from his most basic move (or select a character that stays on the ground if you rather).
Of course, the game being from an older generation, flying doesn’t allow you to launch and air-combo for dozens of seconds like a MvC2 or a Melty Blood. No character can fly away and play the timeout like Petshop: flying is aggressive in Savior, the game has been created at core with the air game in mind, and how to react when your character can’t fly.
Therefore, flying is not necessary to win, on the contrary. Some ground characters are amongst the strongest, and vice versa.
Another thing that enhance the importance of the air moves is the air guard. But it’s an aggressive air guard: it can only protect you from aerial attacks. What it means is simple: you can air guard a shôryûken, but not a standing uppercut.
Important consequence of this: even if your character has a projectile and a shôryûken, don’t play it like a Ryû clone or you will get raped to oblivion. Shôryûkens are weak in Savior.
A general overview of everyone before I get some sleep:
The three strongest characters are considered to be Sasquatch, Zabel and Q-Bee, in that order.
Sasquatch is easy to play as, has an incredibly strong rush game, and can rape almost everyone. Zabel is the strongest character... rhetorically. He has everything needed to win, but he is so deep no one can say they master him perfectly.
Finally, Q-Bee is the best flyer, a real pest, fast, and not so difficult to use when you know what to do. On the other hand, she has really low defense and can be killed by high damage combos very quickly.
Other strong characters : Gallon, with his powerful rush and special throw, or Bishamon, a very technical character. Buletta is an aggressive brat and has a rhetorical infinite to press your the enemy even more. Aulbath is more annoying than anything else with his unescapable bubble trap, and is neither very fun to play as or to fight.
Leilei and Dimitri are extremely difficult to master. But at least Leilei is very fun to play as, and many use her as a secondary character.
Felicia is OK I think.
Lilith is very interesting, a close combat specialist with huge damage potential, but she can die very easily.
The weaker characters are Victor (poor Victor), Jedah and, interestingly, Morrigan. The first two are still used because of their respective uniqueness (rush and tame for Victor, flying and zoning for Jedah) but Morrigan is one of the less interesting characters of the game, unfortunately.
Generally, Anakaris is considered to be the weakest; but he is so strange (even by the already strange standards of this game) that each Anakaris player has an unpredictable way to use his bizarre moves, and most tournament players say they would rather fight a powerful Sasquatch than a skilled Anakaris: at least, they know what to expect.
My other posts will try to present more clearly each character. Stay tuned!
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| Iron D 2857th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):The Vampire Savior appreciation thread" , posted Sun 20 Apr 13:18
Vampire Saviour was one of the few fighting games that I loved enough to actually buy an import copy of. This was back when it was first released on Saturn. I remember I got myself a summer job and saved up the money to get an import cartridge and the game. Both came up to about $75. I was only 15 or so at the time, and having been very poor $75 was a heck of a lot of money for me. Not only that, but I've never been good at saving money, so saving up my cash was actually a rare feat.
But it was worth it. I played that game to death, at one point owned the strategy guide made by Gamefan books (which I've since lost), and my sisters even got into it.
There are a couple of things that bug me though. First, the lack of character specific stages. The stages in this game are some awesome (Fetus of god, anyone?), but I always liked it better when each character had their own stage. Stage sharing always annoyed me. This is a nitpick however.
I also like the differences between it and other fighters. The already mentioned "down" system, pounces, the "dueling fireball" system where projectiles don't always just cancel each other out, etc.
A couple of questions: first, where can I go to read in depth strategy for the game? Shoryuken.com used to have a pretty good section, but I can't find it anymore. I played single player way more than anything else, and my sisters were the only competition that I had. One of my sisters was good, but between the two of us we weren't very high level players.
Second question: I am on the very brink of buying the PSP Vampire Saviour (even though I still have that same copy of VS I bought over a decade ago and it still works fine). I'll probably buy it no matter what is said here, but what should I know about it heading in? How does it rank among the console ports of VS?
Third question: Iggy gave me a rough idea, but does anyone have a complete tier listing? I'm not one of those tourney-driven tier whores, but tier lists have always been interesting and fun to read.
Fourth question: Does anyone know where I could maybe get another copy of that VS strategy guide? It's a very rare book, and Amazon didn't have it last time I checked.
Er.....
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| chazumaru 525th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re: The Vampire Savior tasty sandwich thread" , posted Sun 20 Apr 19:25
←It's the 10th anniversary of Vampire Savior SS版 this week!
Vampire Hunter (SS版) was probably the fighting game I played the most (maybe even more than 3S and RB2) simply because it was released on Saturn at the perfect time of my adolescent life. It is somehow the game that drove me to play fighting games in arcades. I could often find a few machines in Europe and it was one of the few games with a small enough community that I knew I would not get raped by super-strong players whenever I popped up a coin.
As a result, I was really pumped up for Vampire Savior, especially because it marked the apex of the Saturn's second life as the best machine for arcade ports (of course, by today's standards, this does not hold true at all anymore). VS will always be associated in my mind with the clear blue 4MB cartridge, and the game was leagues ahead of X-Men Vs. Street Fighter in terms of atmosphere, surprises and sheer fun.
I love the Saturn port mostly for affective reasons; it oddly combines elements of VS1 and VS2 to become a beast of its own, it brought up a care for dot-art never seen before in fighting games, and although it came around the same time as Ryuuko Gaiden and SFIIING (two technical masterpieces), the much stronger personality made up for its technical shortcomings.
Avoid the Dreamcast version at all costs.
Iggy I strongly suggest that you acquire a copy of All About Series Vol.20 All About Vampire Savior by Studio Bent Stuff (1997 / ISBN4-88554-474-2). This one is about the first arcade game specifically. It is not that easy to find from my experience but it is filled with interesting stuff (trivia, sketches, interviews, etc).
Also "theoretical" and "rhetorical" are two different words.
IT'S THE BLACK PUDDING!
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| Nekros
21th Post
New Customer
| "Re(1):Re: The Vampire Savior tasty sandwich t" , posted Sun 20 Apr 19:49
quote:
Vampire Hunter (SS版) was probably the fighting game I played the most (maybe even more than 3S and RB2) simply because it was released on Saturn at the perfect time of my adolescent life. It is somehow the game that drove me to play fighting games in arcades
Same story here. I simply love this series, it deserves moe attention. The games were fantastic and full of original traits and gameplay choices. Me and my friends of the time spent LOTS of hours playing Hunter and Savior on SS and, to me, is the best fighting series ever.
Strangely, I'm an Aulbath player. Used him since Hunter (were he was better) and never get annoyed by his moves. I don't use the bubble EX a lot, I prefer spamming combos and grabs and I like way he plays because he's a ground character with a good anti-aerial and great speed.
Sincerely if someone (Arc, SNK, whatever) is hired by Capcom to make a new Vampire in 2D I would be glad and very pleased, but if a reprise of this series is like SF4 I'd prefer set it to eternal rest.
Oh, maybe and HD remixed done in Japan works well.
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| Iggy 8466th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Anakaris" , posted Sun 20 Apr 20:06
IronD : the PSP game has some sort of survival mode (the chaos tower) that isn’t in any other version. Beside that, I’ve heard the port was pretty bad (with long loading times, wrong proportions, etc).
As for the tiers, maybe Dimitri is higher now that some dedicated players studied him. Jedah must be above Victor, maybe on par with Lilith. With all the years of practice, some Zabel players finally mastered most of his possibilities and rose above many Sasquatchs. But generally speaking, I don’t think I made huge mistakes in my tier. Savior isn’t a really balanced game (less than Hunter in a way, but less unfair), and low tier characters have a really though time against Buletta or Sasquatch.
Individual characters : I’ll start with the king of kings, and I'll do Q Bee next; I hope it will help to solve Red Falcon’s problem. I think I’ll use VS.com as the general basis, with some Zabelron and All About VS to cover my lack of skills.
Anakaris
Anakaris is a character the core system of the game abandoned completely. He lacks systems all the others characters have and use proficiently: throws, advanced guard, and guard cancel. (actually, he has a guard cancel, but it sucks so much it's better to pretend he has none).
But on the other hand, he can do stuff none of the other characters can. The most important of all is his long hovering time. In a game where the air guard is so powerful, this alone is a huge benefit.
So, yeah, Anakaris is bottom tier. Without core game systems, he has a huge disadvantage against everyone else, and can sometimes die without a single opportunity to come back. But he can also win with surprising constancy, and sometimes totally revert the tier diagram. Like many characters of the game, Anakaris’s strength lies between the hands of the player.
Strengths
Anakaris has very poor defenses. But his attacks are quite powerful: the air pyramid ( ,  or  +  ) can be very tricky to guard when pressuring a downed opponent. But it is slow, so don’t abuse it (on the other hand, its very slowness can catch the opponent off guard). His combos are powerful as well, and the cobra blow and ES cobra blow are delightful.
His defenses are poor, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist. He has long reaching moves, isn’t afraid of projectiles, can keep the opponent away and can teleport from the side of the screen when cornered. He also has this very unique move, the togame no ana (hole of punishment?), to swallow opponents trying to pressure him while he’s down. And it doesn’t even uses a gauge!
But one of his best assets is the  . It is actually one of the very best anti airs of the whole game: it’s fast, reaches high while Anakaris stays very low and safe, deals decent damage, and, since it’s a ground move, it can’t be air guarded. Of course, it has long recovery time, BUT you can chain combo with  to shorten the lag (and gain a few pixels of gauge in the process).
Jedah, Leilei and especially Q Bee, to answer Red Falcon’s question, hate this move.
Finally, the biggest advantage of Anakaris is his uniqueness. He has so many strange proprieties that many fighting game automatisms don’t work against him, and it’s very easy to let the opponent enter a sort of routine, then surprise him and land a devastating combo in his back.
Weaknesses
The biggest is of course the lack of basic systems. No advanced guard means huge trouble against the powerful rushes of Sasquatch and Galon. There is nearly nothing Anakaris can do against such an aggressive long dash, and the fight can very well end in a near perfect. The guard cancel is pathetic: not only does it uses a gauge, but after you’ve used it you are almost certain to face a normal throw.
The lack of normal throw is also a big disadvantage for a normally aggressive character. When in a situation where you should normally throw your opponent Anakaris is at risk to be the one thrown (like after his guard cancel). Also, since he can’t advanced guard, you have to specifically think of the risk of being thrown and input the antithrow manually, while the other characters just have to smash buttons to be safe in any situation.
His other weakness is his size. He is the biggest character of the game, and that makes him an easy target for the likes of Buletta and Leilei.
An Anakaris player must keep these weaknesses in mind at all time, and focus on winning the match before being dominated. One single mistake can cost the whole match, especially because of the down system. Anakaris is one of the characters that require the most patience, efforts, experience and love, but he is also one of the most original and fun character to use once you begin to know him.
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| Iggy 8467th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):Re: The Vampire Savior tasty sandwich t" , posted Sun 20 Apr 20:22
quote:
Iggy I strongly suggest that you acquire a copy of All About Series Vol.20 All About Vampire Savior by Studio Bent Stuff (1997 / ISBN4-88554-474-2). This one is about the first arcade game specifically. It is not that easy to find from my experience but it is filled with interesting stuff (trivia, sketches, interviews, etc).
Actually, Amazon.jp has it, and send it to me immediately after I asked them to, so I guess they have some left? It is indeed ridiculously handsome (like those of Warzard and SF3, that I bought along)
Also, the Vampire Graphic File that came out last year is gorgeous, with every piece of drawing ever made (even the fabulous covers of the PSP and PS2 games, and even some truly horrible third zone drawing for the novels and some Udon comics covers). I think it only forgot Demitri in SvC1, a real shame (but understandable). Well, now I think of it, it just doesn't mention any NGP game either, so that explains it.
quote:
Also "theoretical" and "rhetorical" are two different words.
Damn! The dangers of automatic spelling correctors.
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| Iggy 8468th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Q Bee" , posted Mon 21 Apr 00:09
quote:
What was wrong with the DC version?
From what I recall, the version was like HSF2, and all the characters had versions that "looked like" what they were/could have been in the other games of the series.
Not only was that not very convincing, but the game had some bugs (features), Savior versions were far from being faithful to the originals, and the anime moves (special moves whose animation continue while the opponent is being hit, which not only looks cool but also allow to move afterward) are gone, compromising several strategies.
It's not a total blasphemy (it's not the PS1 version) but it's still far away from a good Savior1 port. It has all sort of bonus, but it neglects the basic work.
Q-Bee
The most important trait of Q-Bee is the incredible speed of her low air dash ( ). It allows her to launch a high combo and chain once on the ground even faster than Sasquatch can. Of course, it all depend on the speed of the player, but no tournament player is able to react effectively to a fast homing air dash.
This is not her only weapon. Pushing  while jumping allows her to hover, which can be as tricky to master as it is to counter. Also, her vulnerability window is very specific, and needs to be learned both by the Q-Bee player and by players who want to hit her.
While she considered the third strongest character of the tier, several weaknesses prevent her from raising above Zabel and Sasquatch. She is a powerful character, but can die very easily and requires a lot of concentration.
Strengths
Once again, her low air dash. It is very versatile, and when done very low has basically the same properties as Sasquatch’s dash forward.
Her vulnerability window while in the air is very small. Almost everyone is Savior is safer in the air than on the ground, but it is particularly true for Q-Bee. Her jump is fast and powerful, so you should jump every time you feel in danger on the ground. Since she will mostly attack from the air, it is not rare to see a Q-Bee spending the most of the match flying.
Her normal moves are so good (except the crouching ones), you can win some matches without even using your special, ES and EX.
She also has a hidden strength: the way she wakes up. She is the character that wakes up the fastest. Her animation is very small, and can mess up the strategy of your opponent if he tries to pressure you routinely. If he doesn’t pay attention, you will be the one comboing his sorry ass as soon as he comes closer to your body.
Weaknesses
First, she has very low defense, and a good combo can take away a huge chunk of her life. Her air dash is powerful but requires a lot of practice and attention from the player, and it also requires a joystick in good condition: an old arcade cabinet with tired controls is especially though. Air dashes are powerful as long as they land a hit; many missed dashes lead to an early Q-bee death.
As I said, she has a very tiny vulnerability window while in the air, but on the ground, she is bigger than she seems and can be hit by moves that seem to stop just before her face. Also, when she crouch, she is lower than any other character, but also larger. That lets her wide open for crossups, and… well, either way she shouldn’t stay on the ground, so serves her well if she does.
She also doesn't have any convincing antiair: her best one may be her crouching strong punch, which does poor damage and can be air guarded.
In general, Q-Bee is strong in the air and weak on the ground, which means the first thing a player on the ground will do is to jump. This makes her easy to play as, since the basics are quite simple, but also easy to predict. It is difficult to surprise your opponent with Q-Bee, and every move you will do with her will have its share of immediate danger.
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| Iron D 2859th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):Anakaris" , posted Mon 21 Apr 14:05
quote:
IronD : the PSP game has some sort of survival mode (the chaos tower) that isn’t in any other version. Beside that, I’ve heard the port was pretty bad (with long loading times, wrong proportions, etc).
As for the tiers, maybe Dimitri is higher now that some dedicated players studied him. Jedah must be above Victor, maybe on par with Lilith. With all the years of practice, some Zabel players finally mastered most of his possibilities and rose above many Sasquatchs. But generally speaking, I don’t think I made huge mistakes in my tier. Savior isn’t a really balanced game (less than Hunter in a way, but less unfair), and low tier characters have a really though time against Buletta or Sasquatch.
Thankee Sai.
Er.....
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| Iggy 8470th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Bulleta" , posted Tue 22 Apr 04:14
quote:
I never could get much out of anyone DF powers and always felt like I was missing out on something. So what DF's were good and how best to use them?
Most of the dark forces are either useless or weird. In most cases, you have better things to do with your gauge.
Red Falcon: Damn it, I'm afraid I'm too rusty to properly answer that (not having fought a lot of Q-Bee in my time doesn't help either). I usually spend a lot of time hovering with Anakaris. Maybe it's better to air guard? At worse she could hit you but not chain afterward... The problem of the togame no ana is that it's only useful when the opponent doesn't see it coming, so it can't be used mindlessly. Sorry I can't help more.
Bulleta
Bulleta is one of the more particular characters of an already particular cast. She requires a kind of dedication and experience that apply only to her, in order to use her as well as to fight her. She’s strong, but not top class. On the other hand, an unprepared opponent can be eaten up pretty easily by a skilled Bulleta. Also, several characters have a really though time against her.
Strengths
Bulleta is the only character of the game to have a real double jump. Her vulnerability window while in the air is really small, she has powerful air chain combos, and can easily counterattack with a  after a successful air guard.
Her Happy&Missile is one of the weakest projectile in term of projectile repelling, but it always cancels the opponent's, which make it really handy. Its ES version deals good damage, and it’s not uncommon to be bugged by annoying Bulletas jumping around, fleeing and launching missiles at random.
Her raising at the beginning of a jump is a great overhead and gives a lot of opportunities. It is also very easy to use, and every player should know at least one or two ways to deal with this particular attack if they want to survive.
Her ground dash is powerful, and can end in an overhead or a throw. The larger characters in particular should be especially careful against her.
Finally, she has an extremely difficult and not very damaging infinite with this dash. As an infinite, it isn’t very useful, but as a way to pressure your opponent and keep him from attacking, it does wonders.
Weaknesses
Bulleta doesn’t like being attacked on the ground. She is much safer in the air; in other words, she is in real danger as long as she is anywhere else.
First, her anti-airs require a lot of attention and experience. She has several (high happy&missile, backdash  or backdash  ), but neither is very effective.
Sometimes, you’re better just running under your opponent. Even though she has a great dash, it is easier said than done.
Another weakness is the fact the commands of some normal moves overwrite the one of her normal throw. When Bulleta leads the game, she can use her command throw, but when she has to throw to protect herself, she has to know exactly what her opponent is doing or she might just do a  or standing , which isn’t something you want in most cases.
Beautiful Memories has a long invincibility frame, but it’s so slow you risk a painful punishment every time you use it. Her guard cancel makes her move and doesn’t deal any damage.
In conclusion, even though Bulleta is a good at attacking on the ground, she must never stay there for long periods of time. Good Bulleta users must learn how to create their own opportunity to jump quickly into safety.
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| HAYATO 861th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "My VH appreciation post" , posted Wed 23 Apr 05:59
Oh, how I miss the days when Vampire Hunter on Sega Saturn was my favorite fighting game... I stayed tru e to it even after purchasing SFA2 and MSH, both games hat I loved, but didn't hooked me up as strongly as VH did.
I still consider VH as the pinnacle of the Darkstalkers series and whenever I hear people talking about the franchise, I can't help joining them, even to these days (yeah, such is the influence VH still has over me)...
Too bad that we don't have more games of its kind nowadays, although it's likely for the better, judging by Capcom's current "show me moh' money, bro!!" policy... It's time to admit it, boys: OUR Capcom died after SFIII, and it'll never come back
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| Iggy 8505th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Thread revival : Bishamon" , posted Mon 26 May 01:20
Yeah, I was about to write that article on U : Saga, but then Chaz asked me to change my priorities, and here I come. If you want a close-up on any other character, feel free to ask.
Bishamon
Bishamon used to be considered absolute top-tier in the first tournaments, and still remains one of the strongest characters in the game.
His aggressive moves are extremely effective, and an opponent must be an expert at advanced guarding to react to his powerful dashes. On the defensive side, he has maybe the best guard cancel of the game, great antiairs, and a strong stand-up game.
On the other hand, Bishamon’s strengths relies heavily on the player’s own skills (though arguably less than Zabel), and requires quite a lot of training to be used effectively.
But the learning curve is smooth (and, again, shorter than Zabel's), and Bishamon is an extremely interesting technical character to play with.
Strengths
Bishamon should be played aggressively, and pressure the opponent for the whole fight.
Once in range, a simple dash attack can have devastating consequences. If guarded, Bishamon can use his very fast karamedama, or his normal throw which allow him to act first even if escaped.
And if this wasn’t enough, his attacks from the air are really effective, and the only characters that can shoot him down after he has jumped are those who have an invincible antiair. Bishamon can overhead really easily from the very first frames of his jump, then chain afterward, or even pressure with an air karamedama.
As I said, Bishamon can also be played really effectively on the defensive side, but with a lot of experience.
His antiairs include (against an opponent jumping from far or middle range) his forward strong punch (but you need to know exactly the range of your move, and try to hit with the extremity of your blade) or his jôdan iaigiri (if you time it to hit the opponent in the air with the top of your blade, you can easily follow up with a togakubisarashi for big damage).
At closer range, the air MP → SP can take care of most situations (but it requires an excellent timing, and according to the situation, a forward, neutral or backward jump).
Against flying (but unfortunately not Q-Bee) or step-dashing (Gallon, Felicia and Sasquatch) opponents, crouching LP can do wonders. In most cases, a well timed karamedama can be comboed into a delicious togakubisarashi.
But Bishamon’s major asset is his guard cancel, and especially the EX version of it. GCs are one of the most difficult systems in such a fast game, and mastering Bishamon requires a perfect ability to GC. The normal version is one of Bishamon’s only effective weapons against Q-Bee’s most devastating attacks, and in most cases, it is so effective that it can be used as a weapon of dissuasion to gain psychological advantage on your opponent.
The EXGC is just insane. The first hit can’t be guarded, and all the hits afterwards are guarantied to hit. There isn’t a single move in the game this EXGC can’t counter. And if that wasn’t enough, the opponent will be cut in two on the ground after this move, and will take longer time to recover than usual. If you have some white damage in your life gauge, most of it should be gone when your opponent finally stands up. A single EXGC can gyakuten many desperate situations.
Also, if the opponent turtles, you can replenish your gauge with crouching MP, gedan.iaigiri or karamedama. He will have a hard time to attack (especially at mid-far range), and you will have plenty of ammo for your EXGC.
Most players use him that way: first, some pokes for chip damage, then, with enough gauge, vicious attack and instant kill. Bishamon can trap some characters with his ES karamedama in an extremely satisfying unguardable loop.
Weaknesses
His main weakness is the amount of time and effort he requires to be played at its best.
The karamedama, one of Bishamon’s main weapons, has strange properties and requires to know exactly your opponent’s size to hit him correctly. Some shorter characters are even immune to it in some situations, preventing you from using a valuable asset.
As I said in the antiair section, you need to know the exact range of all your moves to counter a jumping opponent, and a few pixels of error can result in a double counter, or even an unilateral hit from your opponent.
In the same line of thought, the GC and EXGC are vital parts of his game. If you can’t use this, you will face several situations where you’ll get trapped by your opponent with absolutely no way to escape. A Bishamon that can’t use his GC is amongst the weakest characters of the game.
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| Toxico 4408th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
|  "Re(1):The Vampire Savior appreciation thread" , posted Thu 19 Jun 04:31:
quote:
But what kind of game is it? And why is it different?
First and foremost, even though Vampire is the series that created the chain combo system
Hyo hyo hyo, I was trying to keep this to myself, but World Heroes 2 already had a chain system; it was simple, but albeit had it first; Gan Gan also had one, but I don't know if it predates the Vampire games.
Now Iggy tan loses his "I look cool with sunshades" bonus and is forced to add another character analysis before the next week, or face León Jaluto's (Leonhalt) 'perfectly spoken spanish' wrath.
quote:
[pun intended]Iggy dono, blah blah please review[/pun intended] Sasquatch, Lilith, Aulbath, Felicia and Jedah, in that order.
quote:
Say, what about EX Bishamon? Is he considered better or worse than the default version?
Here is kind good old fat bearded afro Toxic doing his part to keep questions alive.
The only evil of the word; is the one in the heart of men
[this message was edited by Toxico on Thu 19 Jun 04:37] |
| Iggy 8520th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):The Vampire Savior appreciation thread" , posted Thu 19 Jun 04:47
I hate you so very very very much. I'll try to do Sasquatch... sometime. Cleaning your appartment for the first time in 2 years LEARNING A NEW LANGUAGE IN YOUR SPARE TIME IS HARD, PEOPLE.
quote:
Say, what about EX Bishamon? Is he considered better or worse than the default version?
Short answer : I have no idea. He was only playable in Savior 2 / Hunter 2, which have had several tweaks and (un)balance adjustments (I think Morrigan and Jedah are amongst the strongest of Savior 2, and I don't know where Bishamon ranks).
But I guess he must be low-OK-ish, since he has the same normal moves and GC as Bishamon. He lost his karamedama, which alone makes him much, much weaker and boring, but he won a powerful antiair, which might make him easier to play for a n00b.
But even if this antiair is good,, it's not very useful in this game as I already said. All in all, I don't see what could make him better or more interesting to play than the normal Bishamon.
|
| Iggy 8527th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "The "Yiff in hell furfags" extra long post" , posted Mon 23 Jun 07:18
If by “Anakaris’ anti-ground move”, you mean the Naraku no Ana, it’s basically just a long range throw. Just jump over it. If you mean the Togame no Ana, it’s even easier: it basically opens a Naraku no Ana in the middle of Anakaris’ body on the ground.
Since he’s on the ground, you can’t attack, so just let him open, then close: after the hole has closed, he will still appear to lie on the ground, but he will actually be vulnerable to any move (though any attack will knock him away, making it difficult to pull out a real combo).
The Togame no Ana is an especially risky move to use: most of the time, it shouldn’t work twice on the same opponent.
For an effective use of Q-Bee’s supers (as for everyone’s, really) the best thing to do is to just watch a bunch of videos. As far as I can tell, players barely use Qj to prevent a nearly cornered opponent from moving and just pressuring him even farther in the corner. +B doesn’t seem really effective at all: in most situations, most of your normal moves will be enough. Its only advantage is that it’s fast enough to not be countered ever, in any situation.
In general, the EX moves aren’t really useful in Savior (still more than Dark Forces, but never as much as most ES moves). And even less than most other fighting games, it’s never a good idea to stick to one strategy or one move, as powerful as it may seem (disregard this in some cases, today’s main dish in particular).
Sasquatch
One of the three most powerful characters of the game, and was considered as the strongest until recent research ranked Zabel slightly over him.
But compared to Zabel’s level of mastery required, Sasquatch’s main weapon is incredibly basic: its lightning-fast dash overhead, which can be very easily chained into a devastating combo.
If that wasn’t enough, his command throw is extremely effective, he has good mind games, most of his normal moves are either fast, or reach far, or deal good damage, or have all three advantages, and he has a good selection of antiairs. Also, while his main tactic (the fast overhead) looks like Q Bee’s and Zabel’s, remember that it’s a simple ground dash, not an low air dash: it means it’s easier to do, and also that it doesn’t require a joystick in perfect condition to execute.
his strengths
Well, I’ve summed them all up, really. His dash attacks are very easy to pull out, and you never risk to miss your command and input something else. His long dash alone is enough to kill Anakaris (or any player who doesn’t master the AG), (or any player not used to Qatch (not that being used to him offers much more opportunities, really)).
His jump attacks are ridiculous, and his jumping SP can even crush antiairs with a good invincibility window.
Of course, let’s not forget that his strength and his resistance are the best out of the top tiers. His resistance allows him to withstand quite a few blows, so you can make a few mistakes without risking the loss a whole bar, something Zabel and especially Q-Bee can’t afford.
Out of his normal attacks, the standing MP's attack window can crush almost any move of the game unilaterally without trading the hit, and his crouching SK is one of the longest reaching moves in the game.
The ES Big Tower is fast, has fast recovery time and hits through the whole screen. A well-timed Big Brunch (the half circle command throw) can eat away half of a power gauge, so you don’t even have to bother with the 360° throw. Yeah, that sums up Sasquatch pretty well : his 360° and especially the 720° are the most damaging moves of the game, (on par with Victor’s, but with even greater range)… but you’ll never use them because you don’t need them. That’s just how silly powerful Sasquatch is.
Finally, less overwhelming but still good to keep in mind: Sasquatch can stand up with a roll forward faster than most characters, and his follow up move (up+any button on a down opponent) has a very small vulnerability frame, which makes it harder to counter.
his weaknesses
You wish.
If there had to be one, it would be Sasquatch’s relatively poor defense. He has good antiairs (crouching SP, Big Tower and especially ES Big Tower, or his standing SK which is surprisingly good at crushing crossups like Lilith’s), but they all require specific ranges and timing. They can't be spammed over and over at the slightest attack. This means once Sasquatch is down, it can be difficult to react to powerful pressure games like Demitri’s.
His attack is as powerful as it is simple to predict, since most Sasquatchs will just dash forward over and over, and the more they want to deal damage the simpler they pattern will become. Other tactics are just not as effective anyways.
Keep in mind that you only have one weapon; as powerful as it is, if your opponent sees through it, there’s not much you can do. The real key to become an effective Sasquatch player is to mix up various other approaches with the dash, and do everything it takes to not become an one-dimensional opponent.
Felicia
Felicia is the all-around character. She has some good overheads, good mind games, a good command throw, powerful combos, a good pressure game, fast dash, an OK GC, and good crouching moves. Of all the Savior characters, she seems to be the one with the biggest arsenal and the most effective grips on each and every system of the game.
But like most balanced characters, she doesn’t excel anywhere. Her overheads are not as good as Sasquatch’s and Zabel’s, her mind game is less effective than Demitri’s, her command throw is weaker than Gallon’s, her combos are not as damaging as Lilith’s, her pressure game is hampered by her Head Light (when she climbs on the opponent’s head), her GC are much weaker than Bishamon’s and Victor’s… And of course she doesn’t fly like Jedah and Q-Bee, and she’s not as weird and unpredictable as Anakaris.
I guess that’s why she’s one of the least popular characters of the whole Savior cast: you must use all of her half-assed arsenal to be totally effective, and even that doesn’t make her as rewarding as the characters that truly excel in some particular area of the gameplay. Well, at least, that’s why I don’t use her: she’s just plain boring. Mario Savior.
Strengths|
Well, she has it all. That’s the good thing with truly balanced characters: you can do anything. Her jump is fast, as are her overheads, crouching moves and throws. She is the exact opposite of Sasquatch: she has a wide variety of strategies, and she is good in any situations, attack as well as defense.
Her wake up move is a bit strange, but it travels fast and allows her to escape easily when cornered. Her wall jump is also a good asset when fleeing.
She doesn’t require perfect timings or precise knowledge to the pixel and frame of each and every move, so she feels less a burden than the other tactical characters (she can even be effective with a tired joystick and one or two broken buttons). She can do almost everything, and each player can pick up the tactics he likes.
Her EX Dancing flash is difficult to use because of its weird invincibility window, but is very effective when timed right, and it’s a rambu that locks even a jumping opponent. Her ESGC can’t be guarded, which is always nice. She can even use her dark force effectively for Christ’s sake!
Finally, one of her biggest advantages must be her lack of popularity. There is nothing like fighting someone who don’t know one tenth of your tricks.
weaknesses
When downed, Felicia is the character that takes the longest time to stand up. This is both an advantage and a weakness: it means you WILL be pressured when you’ll stand up, and pressure games are very powerful in Savior.
And… Well, pretty much, that’s all I can find to say. If balanced characters are your thing…
Gallon
Savior is definitely a strange game: a character with a 360° and a 720° becomes a rushing character, while a fast character with good pokes becomes a grabber.
Even though Gallon’s beast canon is a powerful weapon, the AG make it less effective than in Hunter (and for the same reason, his Dark force, a Geneijin/original combo, is totally useless). On the other hand, his throws work wonders in every situation.
His normal moves are not bad, but he lacks a fast and long reaching crouching move he could mix with his overhead. He has to rely on jumps, and then chose between standing attacks and throws. The throw sends the opponent in the corner, and allows Gallon to pressure him even further.
Strengths
The fast pace of Savior allow Gallon, one of the fastest characters of the game, to use even his normal throw with a deadly efficiency. After a quick jump, there’s nothing the opponent can do against a well timed throw or beast canon, allowing Gallon to set his own pace to the fight. Even if the throw misses, Gallon still has the upper hand and can continue to pressure up.
The first step of Gallon’s strategy is to come close quickly, and then throw. The second, and much more effective step, is to use the air Beast Canon to come close. The ABC allows to land from your jump much faster then expected, and if you hit, follow up with an ES Climb Razor.
ES Beast Canon is totally safe, since you can fly away if you mess up. If you hit, you can hit five times and take a good chunk of your opponent’s life. And if the opponent guards, you can mess with him and in several cases land a hit or two.
Gallon’s normal moves in the air are really good. His JHK has great range, and the JMK hits at a great angle. The JLK can be used in crossups. Even though he doesn’t fly, Gallon’s air game is one of his most important features.
And even better: being good in the air doesn’t make him suck on the ground! He lacks Felicia or Sasquatch’s fast crouching HK, but his crouching LP can lead to a surprise combo into his EX Moment Slice, while the crouching MK can stop most rushes then be comboed into an ES beast canon. Even though his throw is one of his main assets, Gallon is versatile enough to surprise the opponent with each new attack. Finally, his crouching HP makes an effective antiair.
Weaknesses
Gallon doesn’t like good antiairs. He is supposed to get close by jumping and dashing, so when he can’t, he’s in big trouble. Most characters lack a powerful invincible move to counter a pressuring opponent on stand up, and Gallon is no exception.
Gallon has very strong options, but he is more limited than Felicia. Against an opponent who can nail him on his particular weakness, he lacks alternative techniques to save his day.
|
| exodus 4133th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):The" , posted Mon 23 Jun 21:42
quote:
If by “Anakaris’ anti-ground move”, you mean the Naraku no Ana, it’s basically just a long range throw. Just jump over it. If you mean the Togame no Ana, it’s even easier: it basically opens a Naraku no Ana in the middle of Anakaris’ body on the ground.
Since he’s on the ground, you can’t attack, so just let him open, then close: after the hole has closed, he will still appear to lie on the ground, but he will actually be vulnerable to any move (though any attack will knock him away, making it difficult to pull out a real combo).
The Togame no Ana is an especially risky move to use: most of the time, it shouldn’t work twice on the same opponent.
For an effective use of Q-Bee’s supers (as for everyone’s, really) the best thing to do is to just watch a bunch of videos. As far as I can tell, players barely use Qj to prevent a nearly cornered opponent from moving and just pressuring him even farther in the corner. +B doesn’t seem really effective at all: in most situations, most of your normal moves will be enough. Its only advantage is that it’s fast enough to not be countered ever, in any situation.
In general, the EX moves aren’t really useful in Savior (still more than Dark Forces, but never as much as most ES moves). And even less than most other fighting games, it’s never a good idea to stick to one strategy or one move, as powerful as it may seem (disregard this in some cases, today’s main dish in particular).
Sasquatch
One of the three most powerful characters of the game, and was considered as the strongest until recent research ranked Zabel slightly over him.
But compared to Zabel’s level of mastery required, Sasquatch’s main weapon is incredibly basic: its lightning-fast dash overhead, which can be very easily chained into a devastating combo.
If that wasn’t enough, his command throw is extremely effective, he has good mind games, most of his normal moves are either fast, or reach far, or deal good damage, or have all three advantages, and he has a good selection of antiairs. Also, while his main tactic (the fast overhead) looks like Q Bee’s and Zabel’s, remember that it’s a simple ground dash, not an low air dash: it means it’s easier to do, and also that it doesn’t require a joystick in perfect condition to execute.
his strengths
Well, I’ve summed them all up, really. His dash attacks are very easy to pull out, and you never risk to miss your command and input something else. His long dash alone is enough to kill Anakaris (or any player who doesn’t master the AG), (or any player not used to Qatch (not that being used to him offers much more opportunities, really)).
His jump attacks are ridiculous, and his jumping SP can even crush antiairs with a good invincibility window.
Of course, let’s not forget that his strength and his resistance are the best out of the top tiers. His resistance allows him to withstand quite a few blows, so you can make a few mistakes without risking the loss a whole bar, something Zabel and especially Q-Bee can’t afford.
Out of his normal attacks, the standing MP's attack window can crush almost any move of the game unilaterally without trading the hit, and his crouching SK is one of the longest reaching moves in the game.
The ES Big Tower is fast, has fast recovery time and hits through the whole screen. A well-timed Big Brunch (the half circle command throw) can eat away half of a power gauge, so you don’t even have to bother with the 360° throw. Yeah, that sums up Sasquatch pretty well : his 360° and especially the 720° are the most damaging moves of the game, (on par with Victor’s, but with even greater range)… but you’ll never use them because you don’t need them. That’s just how silly powerful Sasquatch is.
Finally, less overwhelming but still good to keep in mind: Sasquatch can stand up with a roll forward faster than most characters, and his follow up move (up+any button on a down opponent) has a very small vulnerability frame, which makes it harder to counter.
his weaknesses
You wish.
If there had to be one, it would be Sasquatch’s relatively poor defense. He has good antiairs (crouching SP, Big Tower and especially ES Big Tower, or his standing SK which is surprisingly good at crushing crossups like Lilith’s), but they all require specific ranges and timing. They can't be spammed over and over at the slightest attack. This means once Sasquatch is down, it can be difficult to react to powerful pressure games like Demitri’s.
His attack is as powerful as it is simple to predict, since most Sasquatchs will just dash forward over and over, and the more they want to deal damage the simpler they pattern will become. Other tactics are just not as effective anyways.
Keep in mind that you only have one weapon; as powerful as it is, if your opponent sees through it, there’s not much you can do. The real key to become an effective Sasquatch player is to mix up various other approaches with the dash, and do everything it takes to not become an one-dimensional opponent.
Felicia
Felicia is the all-around character. She has some good overheads, good mind games, a good command throw, powerful combos, a good pressure game, fast dash, an OK GC, and good crouching moves. Of all the Savior characters, she seems to be the one with the biggest arsenal and the most effective grips on each and every system of the game.
But like most balanced characters, she doesn’t excel anywhere. Her overheads are not as good as Sasquatch’s and Zabel’s, her mind game is less effective than Demitri’s, her command throw is weaker than Gallon’s, her combos are not as damaging as Lilith’s, her pressure game is hampered by her Head Light (when she climbs on the opponent’s head), her GC are much weaker than Bishamon’s and Victor’s… And of course she doesn’t fly like Jedah and Q-Bee, and she’s not as weird and unpredictable as Anakaris.
I guess that’s why she’s one of the least popular characters of the whole Savior cast: you must use all of her half-assed arsenal to be totally effective, and even that doesn’t make her as rewarding as the characters that truly excel in some particular area of the gameplay. Well, at least, that’s why I don’t use her: she’s just plain boring. Mario Savior.
Strengths|
Well, she has it all. That’s the good thing with truly balanced characters: you can do anything. Her jump is fast, as are her overheads, crouching moves and throws. She is the exact opposite of Sasquatch: she has a wide variety of strategies, and she is good in any situations, attack as well as defense.
Her wake up move is a bit strange, but it travels fast and allows her to escape easily when cornered. Her wall jump is also a good asset when fleeing.
She doesn’t require perfect timings or precise knowledge to the pixel and frame of each and every move, so she feels less a burden than the other tactical characters (she can even be effective with a tired joystick and one or two broken buttons). She can do almost everything, and each player can pick up the tactics he likes.
Her EX Dancing flash is difficult to use because of its weird invincibility window, but is very effective when timed right, and it’s a rambu that locks even a jumping opponent. Her ESGC can’t be guarded, which is always nice. She can even use her dark force effectively for Christ’s sake!
Finally, one of her biggest advantages must be her lack of popularity. There is nothing like fighting someone who don’t know one tenth of your tricks.
weaknesses
When downed, Felicia is the character that takes the longest time to stand up. This is both an advantage and a weakness: it means you WILL be pressured when you’ll stand up, and pressure games are very powerful in Savior.
And… Well, pretty much, that’s all I can find to say. If balanced characters are your thing…
Gallon
Savior is definitely a strange game: a character with a 360° and a 720° becomes a rushing character, while a fast character with good pokes becomes a grabber.
Even though Gallon’s beast canon is a powerful weapon, the AG make it less effective than in Hunter (and for the same reason, his Dark force, a Geneijin/original combo, is totally useless). On the other hand, his throws work wonders in every situation.
His normal moves are not bad, but he lacks a fast and long reaching crouching move he could mix with his overhead. He has to rely on jumps, and then chose between standing attacks and throws. The throw sends the opponent in the corner, and allows Gallon to pressure him even further.
Strengths
The fast pace of Savior allow Gallon, one of the fastest characters of the game, to use even his normal throw with a deadly efficiency. After a quick jump, there’s nothing the opponent can do against a well timed throw or beast canon, allowing Gallon to set his own pace to the fight. Even if the throw misses, Gallon still has the upper hand and can continue to pressure up.
The first step of Gallon’s strategy is to come close quickly, and then throw. The second, and much more effective step, is to use the air Beast Canon to come close. The ABC allows to land from your jump much faster then expected, and if you hit, follow up with an ES Climb Razor.
ES Beast Canon is totally safe, since you can fly away if you mess up. If you hit, you can hit five times and take a good chunk of your opponent’s life. And if the opponent guards, you can mess with him and in several cases land a hit or two.
Gallon’s normal moves in the air are really good. His JHK has great range, and the JMK hits at a great angle. The JLK can be used in crossups. Even though he doesn’t fly, Gallon’s air game is one of his most important features.
And even better: being good in the air doesn’t make him suck on the ground! He lacks Felicia or Sasquatch’s fast crouching HK, but his crouching LP can lead to a surprise combo into his EX Moment Slice, while the crouching MK can stop most rushes then be comboed into an ES beast canon. Even though his throw is one of his main assets, Gallon is versatile enough to surprise the opponent with each new attack. Finally, his crouching HP makes an effective antiair.
Weaknesses
Gallon doesn’t like good antiairs. He is supposed to get close by jumping and dashing, so when he can’t, he’s in big trouble. Most characters lack a powerful invincible move to counter a pressuring opponent on stand up, and Gallon is no exception.
Gallon has very strong options, but he is more limited than Felicia. Against an opponent who can nail him on his particular weakness, he lacks alternative techniques to save his day.
no wonder you couldn't come to dinner last night!
|
| Iggy 8529th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):ZOMG!!! Seconding teh Novodan request!!" , posted Tue 24 Jun 09:05
quote:
LOL, I don't see this happening soon, based on how much Iggy despises him... But I second your request!!
Well, the problem is not that I don't like Donovan (well, I don't like him, but I talked about Felicia, and I'm going to talk about Zabel, who I don't like either) I just don't have anything to say on Savior2/Hunter2. And I'm not alone : for the characters I'm not familiar with, I'm basing my thing on various tournament-based sites, and no one is playing those games, so I would have no idea what to say. The game we all played was Savior 1, and nobody is interested in the others.
Capcom changed quite a lot of things there (the air chain combo, the dash attacks, the guard system...) not to mention they took away characters that were created and optimized for the game engine and replaced them with a wacky copy-and-paste job (like what SNKP is doing when they c&p NGBC characters in KOFXI or SvC characters in NW).
It is especially terrible for Pyron, who was nerfed like mad, had all his moves weaken and made slower, THEN was forced into a system that was not made for him so it prevents him from using any of his techniques, and nothing was made to offer him any new opportunity. In the end, Pyron in the home versions of Savior is the weakest character, much weaker than Anakaris, except not fun to play at all and without any clear concept behind his playstyle, except maybe trying to throw the opponent once or twice and then teleport away until the timer ends.
As for the two others... I guess Phobos must be really good if not overpowered, since his airgame in Hunter was really powerful and he can still hover around. Donovan... I have no idea. I don't even know how you're supposed to play him in Hunter.
But, yeah. Each character in Savior1 (except Morrigan, who was the only failure of the game) was created thoughtfully with several tactical options to make a truly varied game, where the players could explore every aspect of the engine. Then they threw all that away in the sequels, made the balance even worse, broke the system, and left it all pending.
So... No, I won't be able to talk about Savior 2 or Hunter 2, sorry.
quote:
Oh, BTW, does anyone know who this artwork belong to? I always thought it was CMRK/Bengus' but I recently heard it being Ikeno's... Is there anyone kind enough to shed some light on the topic?
I think it's by someone from the design team of Vampire Hunter. At least that's who it's credited to in the Vampire Graphic File. It could be CRMK, Ikeno, or some unknown guy.
For the next character, depending on the time I have, I'll either do another lot of three characters (the 3 "shotos", Demitri, Lilith, Morrigan) or my personal favourite after Anakaris : Leilei, one of the most interesting characters of the game. Except it may take longer just for her than for the three others. I don't know.
|
| Iggy 8530th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):ZOMG!!! Seconding teh Novodan request!!" , posted Tue 24 Jun 18:52
quote:
Wait, so these strategies are specifically for the arcade Vampire Saviour? Heck, I'm confused...what the heck are Hunter, Hunter 2 and Saviour 2? What are the differences?
Basically... I'm talking about the arcade Vampire Savior1, and the home versions build around this game : the PS2 version of course, but also the Saturn port, and to a lesser extend the DC, PS1 and PSP versions.
Vampire Hunter is Darkstalker 2, the game before Savior1 (Darkstalker 3). Even though each game looks like a +alpha version of the one before, they are really different engine-wise : you can think Vampire (1) is like SF2, Vampire Hunter (2) is like SSF2X, and Savior (3) is like SFZero2.
Then, after Savior1, the father of the series left Capcom, and some bright fuck had the brilliant idea to release two arcade games, called Hunter 2 and Savior 2. Both are actually Savior1 with random tweaks, Donovan, Phobos and Pyron added, and some characters taken out (Jedah, Q-Bee, Lilith and Bulleta were taken out of Hunter 2, and Sasquatch, Aulbath and Gallon out of Savior 2). Nobody played those, and that was the final straw that killed the series.
Finally, when Savior was ported to consoles, they ported Savior 1, then added Donovan, Phobos and Pyron as bonusses, and handed the "Hunter2/Savior2" problem as they could. The PS1 and the DC version have an option to play each character like in Savior 1 or in the sequels, like a "groove" system. Since Savior 1 stays the base of those ports, what I'm saying stays generally valid, as long as you have the characters play in their Savior 1 version. On the other hand, the PS2 version treats each game independently. And nothing I say applies to Vampire (Darkstalker1) nor Vampire Hunter 1 (Darkstalker 2).
In other words, Donovan/Phobos/Pyron are in all home versions, but since I never had the occasion to play Hunter2, Savior 2 or any home version them against a serious opponent, I have no idea of how they play (except Pyron).
|
| Iron D 2898th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):ZOMG!!! Seconding teh Novodan request!!" , posted Tue 24 Jun 19:21
quote:
Wait, so these strategies are specifically for the arcade Vampire Saviour? Heck, I'm confused...what the heck are Hunter, Hunter 2 and Saviour 2? What are the differences?
Basically... I'm talking about the arcade Vampire Savior1, and the home versions build around this game : the PS2 version of course, but also the Saturn port, and to a lesser extend the DC, PS1 and PSP versions.
Vampire Hunter is Darkstalker 2, the game before Savior1 (Darkstalker 3). Even though each game looks like a +alpha version of the one before, they are really different engine-wise : you can think Vampire (1) is like SF2, Vampire Hunter (2) is like SSF2X, and Savior (3) is like SFZero2.
Then, after Savior1, the father of the series left Capcom, and some bright fuck had the brilliant idea to release two arcade games, called Hunter 2 and Savior 2. Both are actually Savior1 with random tweaks, Donovan, Phobos and Pyron added, and some characters taken out (Jedah, Q-Bee, Lilith and Bulleta were taken out of Hunter 2, and Sasquatch, Aulbath and Gallon out of Savior 2). Nobody played those, and that was the final straw that killed the series.
Finally, when Savior was ported to consoles, they ported Savior 1, then added Donovan, Phobos and Pyron as bonusses, and handed the "Hunter2/Savior2" problem as they could. The PS1 and the DC version have an option to play each character like in Savior 1 or in the sequels, like a "groove" system. Since Savior 1 stays the base of those ports, what I'm saying stays generally valid, as long as you have the characters play in their Savior 1 version. On the other hand, the PS2 version treats each game independently. And nothing I say applies to Vampire (Darkstalker1) nor Vampire Hunter 1 (Darkstalker 2).
In other words, Donovan/Phobos/Pyron are in all home versions, but since I never had the occasion to play Hunter2, Savior 2 or any home version them against a serious opponent, I have no idea of how they play (except Pyron).
Oh...so Vampire Hunter is the American Night Warriors! I've known all these years that Darkstalkers is called Vampire in Japan, but I have no idea how I never knew that Night Warriors was Vampire Hunter. For some reason I thought it was just called Vampire 2.
On a side note of questionable relevance, while I know that the PS1 game is called Darkstalkers 3, the only arcade version of the game that I've ever played was called Vampire Saviour. I'd heard that the American arcade cabinets were called Darkstalkers 3 like the PS1 version.
Er.....
|
| Iggy 8642th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Leil-Lei" , posted Thu 18 Sep 05:22
I saw what you did here, you, you dirty you. You will pay. Someday.
Leilei
Leilei is an extremely tricky character. She has an air dash, an invisible ground dash, an overhead overture with the senpûbu, which allow her to control every possible place on screen (and often off screen). But she isn’t forced to be technical every time, and can also use fairly conventional techniques: her forward+button normal moves can hold back most attackers, she has plenty of great antiairs, destructive combos, and, most of all, THE Leilei move, the Tenraiha.
But each of these techniques has its share of drawback. Leilei is an extremely difficult character to master, but at the same time incredibly fun to play, and has a way to move around on screen that only belong to a Vampire character. She’s definitely not top tier, but several tournament players use her as a subcharacter.
Strengths
In one word : the Tenraiha. More on this latter.
Besides, her forward+punch moves make great antiairs, especially the forward+weak punch : the blade of the weapon is not considered part of Leilei’s body and is not vulnerable. Crouching middle punch and strong kick are perfect to stop most air dashes, and the latter can be cancelled into Tenraiha for a devastating followup.
Generally speaking, her moves are slow and leave her open to counters, but they reach far and deal good damage.
In the air, you can choose between your airdash or any of your normal moves to confuse your opponent. The jump middle punch is fast, has good range and can be used to pressure with a low airdash. The air strong punch can be used in several ways, especially mixed with the airdash. Leilei is not defenseless on the ground, but she is even more powerful in the air.
Weaknesses
Leilei is heavy. She’s big boned. She’s friggin’ FAT.
She walks even slower than Anakaris, doesn’t jump much faster, and generally has a lot of trouble to keep her opponent pressured. Anakaris himself can escape with his teleport, and against an opponent who can use the AG, Leilei will have a lot of trouble catching up. That’s why she has to use her slowest moves, those with a long and wide range. In theory, that works, but almost any AG or well timed move can nullify this technique. It’s not as useful as it appears to be.
Also, even though she doesn’t look like it, she is the largest character of the game. Crossups are very easy to do on her, as are throws, and… well, almost everything. Several traps, that can be evaded or AG’d by the other characters, can catch Leilei and there’s nothing she can do about it. Finally, several Leilei-only combos exist, making her the cutest punching-ball in the fighting game history.
These two major drawback require a lot of concentration to play Leilei effectively.
Move analysis
crouching strong kick
Her best antiair. It’s slow before and after the hit, but it’s incredibly reliable, even if your opponent unexpectedly jumps on you. But be careful : several characters can change their jump direction in mid-air, and you need to think carefully about it when you face such an opponent.
Fortunately, you can cancel this with a Tenraiha, with delicious results.
Ankihô : 236P
Leilei throws something on a different angle according to the strength of the button pushed. The strong one can’t be guarded while crouching. The ES version will make her throw 3 low projectiles that have to be guarded crouching.
Amongst the random projectiles, the hammer and the rock will down and stun the opponent for a second. When using medium or strong punch, those will come right after the Gôki doll (with weak punch, they will appear randomly).
The medium and strong can be used as counter moves, and the strong one is useful to confuse and pressure a downed opponent when mixed with a low attack (making them unguardable and opening the opponent to a delicious follow-up combo). The problem with this trick is that, like most tricks, it gets old quickly.
The weak projectile isn’t really useful. Just keep it in mind when you want to put some variety in your game.
Henkyôki 214P
Leilei will bang a gong. This will repel most projectiles in the game (including the likes of Jedah’s set projectile). Unfortunately, it will simply erase Bishamon’s karamedama, and Morrigan’s finishing shower, Aulbath’s poison and sonic waves, Felicia’s ES cat spike and another Leilei’s henkyôki will simply go through.
The strength of the punch will simply add more sound waves and take longer. The ES version hits 3 times and can be used in air combos.
This move is very useful to pressure your opponent after a low air dash, or cancel (or empty cancel) any normal move (or air dash).
Senpûbu 623P
Makes Leilei hang aroung the screen. Can be cancelled with K, and the angle at which Leilei will fall after that depends on the timing when you push your K button. This point is particularly important to make Leilei land where you need her, and must be learned to use her effectively.
Also, you can do another Senpûbu before touching the ground, then push K, then again, until you jump off screen (and mix an airdash in there for good mesure). There are several complicated ways to use this effectively, land everywhere, and confuse your opponent.
Hôtengeki 63214+medium or strong P
Command throw. There is no ES version, but its damage is on par with most characters’ ES command throws. Can be used after a ground dash, after a few pokes and projectiles.
Also, even though there is no ES version, you should push both buttons when you do that: it will make an ES Henkyôki which will catch the opponent if he tries to jump to escape your throw (and if he guards that, then he’s yours). This technique alone is extremely menacing, and an interesting card in Leilei’s game.
EX MOVES
Jireitô 41236KK
That sword move. Once the first one is out, even if you are hit, the other swords will come out and eventually punish your opponent. They can hit the opponent in the air, who will be open to an aircombo with a senpûbu.
It’s not really useful, not really damaging, but has its uses and can cover you while you airdash and pressure your opponent. But a simple AG can push you out of it, and you surely have better things to do with your gauge. At worst, you can use it as a surprise move, or to buy time, recover your energy or wait for the time over.
Finally, when cornered, you can AG+Jireitô to push back your opponent. Not great, but why not.
Chûkadan 41236PP
Useless.
Dark Force PK of the same strength.
Hyper armor. Useless, leaves you wide open when it ends, and, like everyone else, accidentally comes up when you are trying to AG. At least you have Linlin dancing in the background for you meanwhile.
Tenraiha weak kick, strong kick, medium punch, medium punch, up
This move is to Leilei what the shôryûken is to Ryû: a defining move, and her strongest asset, opening some traps as beautiful as Urien’s Aegis Reflector’s.
The hammer itself can’t be air guarded, and the spike balls fall randomly (and stay on screen for a long time) while you crush your opponent’s guard if any. If you trapped your opponent in the corner, several characters won't be able to do do anything against it (and in some cases, it can be a real nightmare even out of the corner). It can be used in several devastating combos as a delicious finisher, or, even better, as a punishment on a downed opponent, or as a cancel for a crouching strong kick or punch… Have I mentioned this move deals insane amounts of damage and is lightening fast?
You can also use it when you are cornered. Even if you don’t hit your opponents, some of them, afraid of the balls, will go back, freeing you and giving you new opportunities.
It is a difficult move to master, with tons of possibilities and with a flexibility that allows you to mix it with your own play style. On the other hand, anyone facing Leilei must know at least a way to evade this trap.
There’s something more I love with this move: it ends with "up", and it’s so unusual and beautiful to see a move go after such a simple input makes it much easier to remember then most other dialing commands.
I love Leilei. The incredible oddity of Anakris hides the slightly less weird characters of the game, and the cameos of Leilei in other games don't make much justice to what she is: an interesting and truly unique character.
Like everyone else in the game.
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| Iggy 8782th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Victor" , posted Sat 20 Dec 02:02:
Victor
While Victor looks like the Zangief of Vampire, the systems of the game make him much different from his SF2 counterpart.
The chain combos allow him to rely on something else than his throws to deal damage, and the mind game once the opponent is down is a big part of Victor’s tactics, maybe even deadlier than his 360°.
When the game was first released, big and slow Victor was considered only slightly stronger than Anakaris, but his particular electric combo system and his powerful GC made him slowly grow amongst players. He still has a hard time against the strongest characters, but he is far from helpless.
Strengths
The main key to win with Victor is to use his electric combos at their full potential. Unfortunately… I never really took the time to study them, so I’ll take the word of much better players than myself and just put it here.
The important thing to remember is that electricity hits your opponent without hit back, allowing you to land a full chain combo regularly. Ending those with a far SP or crouching SK will down your opponent, gaining even more advantage.
Victor is deadly at close range. His close WP has a small vulnerability window and bigger-than-it-seems offensive area, and of course it’s the first attack of most chain combos.
At mid-range, the risk is bigger, but your far MP or MK chained into a strong attack can work wonders.
A quick note on the Giga burn (623K): while not as fast as it could be, this move has a landing length of only one frame, so even if it is guarded, most enemies won’t be able to counterattack. All strengths of K have the exact same priority, while the EX is a bit slower. No need to take any risks there.
Even if you missed your opponent or had him guard your move, it still allows you to come closer at quasi-no risk and land a command throw, thanks to the landing speed. Your opponent will have to be very used to Victor to see it coming, and even then, if you pressure him enough, he may not have time to react..
As a GC, it’s still weaker than Bishamon’s (what isn’t?), but it’s still one of Victor’s main weapons. He is slow and has a hard time to reach fast and rushing opponent; this move alone can allow you to catch many fleeing opponents. Also, in most cases, you have 100% chances to land a up+attack follow up after this. Victor’s follow up attack is strong, and the EX version deals as much damage as a SP.
And how could I forget the Gherdenheim3, when Victor grabs the opponent between his butt cheeks? If you are one of those madmen who can 720° during a dash, please do, but the move is essentially a stronger version of the 360°, with the same basic properties.
Don’t torture yourself with this move: Victor has several other areas of his gameplay where cautious training will be much more useful than replacing a 360° by a 720°. Electric chain=>empty jump=>360° still hurts a LOT.
So, yeah, Victor has trouble moving around, but his air attacks are surprisingly strong, his anti air is very good, his GC is almost risk-free, and he even has his own system, the electric chain. If you manage to use all of Victor’s assets, nothing should scare you.
Weaknesses
As we’ve seen, Victor has a lot of hidden strong points; but he is a severely unbalanced character. His air attacks are strong but not infallible. His attacks are powerful and reach far, but leave you wide open if you miss. His command throws deal huge damage, but are hard to land and have a very long miss animation. You need to make as few mistakes as possible if you want to win the match.
Of course, like all slow characters, fast pests will give you a hard time. A flying and fleeing opponent will be a real pain in the ass.
But he is a very “Savioresque” character, with his unique gameplay and tactics, perfectly integrated in the game and in the cast, and, well, since it’s one of the saddest characters in the whole cast scenario-wise, he deserves at least some love.
Plus he can grab opponents with his butt cheeks.
EDIT : If I'm not mistaken, I have Jedah, Lilith, Morrigan, Demitri, Zabel and Aulbath remaining. I think I'll try Jedah next time, unless I have enough energy to do the three seemingly-hadô-shôryûken characters.
[this message was edited by Iggy on Sat 20 Dec 09:59] |
| Iron D 3116th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):Victor" , posted Sat 20 Dec 22:10
quote:
Victor
While Victor looks like the Zangief of Vampire, the systems of the game make him much different from his SF2 counterpart.
The chain combos allow him to rely on something else than his throws to deal damage, and the mind game once the opponent is down is a big part of Victor’s tactics, maybe even deadlier than his 360°.
When the game was first released, big and slow Victor was considered only slightly stronger than Anakaris, but his particular electric combo system and his powerful GC made him slowly grow amongst players. He still has a hard time against the strongest characters, but he is far from helpless.
Thanks, Iggy. This rundown of Victor confirmed my fears: even at higher level play, his command throws are almost useless.
You see, being the 360 grappler addict that I am, I was always looking to Victor to be my grappler for VS but...the way he was designed, combined with the general system of the game, didn't seem to support my hopes. As Iggy wrote here, he seemed to rely more on his electric normals.
Damn, as great as the Darkstalkers/Vampire series is, it's never had a true straight-up grappler type. I wouldn't even count VS Squatch, depsite the fact that he has two command throws and a 720 super. Neither he nor Victor seems to rely on these moves much.
Er.....
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| Iggy 8782th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Victor" , posted Sat 20 Dec 23:28
quote:
Damn, as great as the Darkstalkers/Vampire series is, it's never had a true straight-up grappler type. I wouldn't even count VS Squatch, depsite the fact that he has two command throws and a 720 super. Neither he nor Victor seems to rely on these moves much.
Well, Victor relies on his 360° (and 720 if you can), using the electric stun to get closer... But it's only 1/3 of his game, with the electric chain and the GC.
Sasquatch is definitely not a grappler, but only because the rest of his arsenal is so good there's no reason to use the throws. But maybe, since all Sasquatch look the same, a throw-heavy Sasquatch could be original and surprising?
As I said, the character that relies on throw the most is Gallon. Maybe not entirely by design, but the game system is such that the fast, rushing, combo oriented werewolf is the most capable of using his command throw.
Ah! And of course, the fact that EVERYONE (except, of course, Anakaris) has a command throw half circle+punch makes the grappler question a totally different matter than in any other game.
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| Toxico 4631th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "リレイズ" , posted Mon 19 Jan 11:31
quote:
Oooh, look what happened (it wasn't me, until now!). SOMEONE HAS CAST リレイズ ON THIS THREAD
As some cleaver animals might have already noticed, I have planted here and there evil seeds to turn Iggy into our lovable World Heroes Gorgeous dark side.
As shameless plug fun facts, while some of this is pretty obvious, there is some technical stuff that's most likely not documented anywhere :
In WH2J :
+ There is an universal 'roll recovery' in the game that's somewhat hard to perform, once you are hit with a sweep or certain attacks that know you down, press down with the pad or a strong attack button (I always do so with strong kick), at the same that that the knock down attack lands, the victim will do a 'roll recovery' while in mid air and will fall on his feet (this recovery can't be punished, but be carefull of delayed grabs when you do this). This is pretty good against characters that have a hellish knock down game (Like Rasputin or Ryoko). Some special moves can't be recovered from (like the Shark upper or the Ryuu Has). I think that this is the first game with a feature such as this.
+ If I do remember correctly, the 'bounce fire balls' defence is not present in the game, however there is still a special defense against fire balls, it must be done just like in 2 ('just defending' a fireball). Properly ejecuting it will evade thick damage.
+ Throw escape seems to be absent from this game (in 2 you could do so). However most throws have been strongly balanced are now do 'human' amounts of damage.
+ Hanzou can do a short jump by tapping jump twice (that is, forsaking his first jump and doing right from the bat his second jump). Fuuma can't take advantage from this, as his secomd jump is very large.
+ The Back Sway (tapping backwards twice) didn't have invincibility frames in WH2 (and I think only Shura could do it), in this game it has some hefty invincible frames at the start (It's annoying to fight, but nothing that a good old angry punky style beatdown in the corner won't solve).
+ If I remember correctly Kidd could link jabs to fierce punches, Fuma could do so with his crouching weak kick to crouching strong kick & Ryoko could do cr jab to cr strong kick. Most likely a lot of other characters can do these types of links, but my expertise of the cast is seemingly not inmensely valuable for this chapter of the saga. This is important for the next point.
+ The feint button can do some marvelous evil pressure tactics. For example Ryoko can link a crouching jab into a crouching fierce kick. From close distance, a crouching jab -> feint button -> special throw can be extremely evil. Specially once you realize that you can do crouching jab -> feint button -> crouching jab. Fuma could enjoy from feint -> throw, or feint -> En ryu ha
+ Ryoko's back says 日本一 (nippon ichi, japan's best / nº1 ), it was goddamned hard to read in game, only to be marveled and how easily it can be noticed from one of the game's wall papers.
This topic was brought to you by a 5 hours 6 way World Heroes death match, and a bunch of Castillo silver bottles.
Obscene voodoo dance teleport
目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
Last updated : 17/01/09 (96 personajes)
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| karasu99
48th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(1):リレイズ" , posted Tue 20 Jan 04:04
quote:
As some cleaver animals might have already noticed, I have planted here and there evil seeds to turn Iggy into our lovable World Heroes Gorgeous dark side.
Here, Toxico-sama, I'll help with the hijack.
I've noticed, by the way, your clever avoidance of talking about World Heroes Perfect-- what's the story with that? For me, WHP just doesn't feel as World Heroes-ish as WH2J, for some reason. Maybe it's the 2 and 2 button arrangement? All I can really note is that back in the Neo-CD era, WH2J looked incredible, but when I excitedly started up WHP, everything that moved... flickered. I was crushed. Clearly here that's not the case, since these games more accurately represent the actual MVS/AES versions. But maybe it's just psychological.
In any event, I was always a big fan of the series, especially in its early days. I played a lot of Kim Dragon, with his way over the top audio samples and his innovative (at the time) no charge, great-looking dragon kick. Even to this day, I love using Hanzo, Fuuma, Mudman, and Neo-Dio in Negibako.
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| Toxico 4633th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):リレイズ" , posted Tue 20 Jan 12:17
quote:
I've noticed, by the way, your clever avoidance of talking about World Heroes Perfect-- what's the story with that?
It's not the 4 buttons / 6 attacks at all, and if you take a good look you'll notice that Iggy was the one avoiding perfect (hence, I made an advice on the game that he happens to enjoy the most)
It's obvious that 'direction wise' WHP didn't kept most of the prettyness & wackyness of the previous titles (despise having excellent breath taking in game art).
While game play wise the game did took certain 'turns in the right direction' (special throws require a lot of accuracy, some incredibly meann overheads where introduced into the game, running became much better & more agressive, characters gained a 'personal' (& usually) weird action with the ABC command ), there are some features that didn't fell well into the game.
-> Crontrolled Guard Crush was a good idea, but escaping it accurately it's incredibly hard to perform (it's like recovering from dizzyness), with that at hand, they are very easy to do & very hard to escape, meaning that in mid / low level game play a player can get completely raped eating 3 or more +30% damage guard crushes without truly realizing what's going on, or how to escape.
-> Air defence didn't set well with the game, the fact that normal attacks means like running or normal attacks got boosted, add that the guard crush feature & you'll notice that players are usually safer in the air with a incredibly strong air defense, instead of fighting it out in the ground. This is very annoying to fight, specially since some characters can attack 5, 6 or 7 times while in mid air, after or before blocking.
-> Hero gauge could not be saved to when you needed to use an special move; when the bar is full you 'lost' the normal version of the move and you are forced to use the EX, having a different & unique command secuences to the EX moves would have made things better for a lot of characters.
-> Infinites made a Big come back into the series, in WH1 there it was this whole lot of 100% combos, & they where easy to land & abuse, in WH2 there it was also a bunch of them, but the more accurated engine made them hard to land & abuse (for example, Fuma had the most accurate & easy to use infinite, but I could play the entire day a someone vs Fuma battles without getting creamed by the infinite once. And that didn't require me to play any special strategies to avoid the infinite, the worst case was you being moronic with the ryuu has). in WH2J I only know of one infinite (for Ryoko) & it's almost impossible to land & do so it's not really a weapon, and it doesn't work on everybody. WHP followed the WH1 'wave' and has very easy to do, land & abuse infinites.
If you are at a high enough level you could play some very entertaining battles in WHP, but battling itself is usually more fun & has more personality in 2 or jet. However, I still think that you need to wash yourself in different parts of the saga from time to time, realizing how much the games changed with each chapter and how many things where introduced in each part really sets your sights straight on what the company wanted to say at the time, it's like if ADK was the Yuki of 90s.
Also, how should I put this? 「様」で我わないぞ、ひへ………… ひへ………… ひへ…………
目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
Last updated : 17/01/09 (96 personajes)
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| karasu99
50th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(3):リレイズ" , posted Wed 21 Jan 01:59
quote:
It's not the 4 buttons / 6 attacks at all, and if you take a good look you'll notice that Iggy was the one avoiding perfect (hence, I made an advice on the game that he happens to enjoy the most)
Ah, I think I must have just been confused. Thanks for the interesting write-up!
In any event, after reading your details I started up WHP for the first time in a while and played a few hours on it. Aesthetically, it's great, and the attacks, the animations, the backgrounds, they're all superior to WH2J. In fact, it made me realize just how bad some of the animations are in Jet-- I'm thinking especially of the pre-fight vs computer animations, which are almost embarrassing.
So in other words I was pleasantly surprised. My suspicion is that my bad feelings for Perfect are based almost entirely on evaluation of a sub-par Neo-CD translation from over a decade ago.
Now what you should do to complete the thread hijack, since you're clearly much more accomplished at the game than I am, is do a write-up of individual characters! (This is my thinly veiled attempt at begging some more info out of you)
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| Toxico 4636th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):リレイズ" , posted Wed 21 Jan 05:42
quote:
Iggy's just trying to get out of doing a write-up of Jedah. Still, the idea of a thread that illuminates the good points of the WH games is a nice idea. The WH series and I parted ways many years ago and ever since then I've been curious to know if the WH games managed to pull off anything interesting that should make me take a second look.
Naturally I plan on not moving a finger before the write up about Saviour is done ( ), Also in my current condition I can probably 'truly' cover indeeply half of the WHP cast (hence, I'll run some more serious dojo challenges within my friends).
If we speak about "What makes WH valuable?" you need to think if you "like a game where you can do things". Most of the WH cast have a very wide set of strenghts & characteristics (despise some of the characters having minimal move sets). If you put yourself in 1993 (WH2) or in 1994 (WH2J), there aren't many games that left you the sentation of "I closed in, pressured him, tricked him & beated him". The sense of 'I was in combat' that a good World Heroes match can leave it's, perhaps; impossible to match within the games of the time (For example most normal attacks are designed to use in close to the enemy, where as many other games of the time had a bunch of 'keep them away' moves (this is one of my strongest grips against SF)). In order to grasp those feelings the best thing is to play the game with people that understand & love the game (there it was a huge comunity down here). The concept of 'preemptive attack' is a huge part of the game
While knowing how to play by yourself & getting into the 1p experience you can perfectly grasp some of the elements that do make the game have the pacing that they do have, in time you'll realize that most of the joy does come from tricking a human opponent & trying not to get cheated by the enemy.
目に焼きつけて、死ぬがいい・・・
Last updated : 20/01/09 (96 personajes)
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| Iggy 8831th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Lilith" , posted Fri 6 Feb 18:37
OK. Toxico pretty much leaves me no choice but to go on with this thread, even though I can't compete with his insight on his game. I lose@forever.
Also, I've meant to study the three Hadô/Shôryû characters at once, but I haven't had time to work on it since 2009 began and I don't know when I'll be able to go on with Dimitri and Morrigan. At least Lilith is done, so here you go.
Generic introduction : All three Hado/Shôryû characters happen to be amongst the weakest of the game, and that isn't the least charming characteristic of Savior. We've seen why: the air guard makes any Shôryûken much weaker because your anti air is also an air attack (your character jumps when he performs it) and projectiles obey to their own sets of rules, and are generally not as useful to control a screen when half of the characters can fly over them.
If Dimitri, Lilith and Morrigan seem to share the same moveset, each of our three characters has his and her own particular techniques and flavor which make them all worthwhile additions to the cast.
Lilith
Lilith, being the most recent addition to the cast, is the least standard character of the three. While Morrigan can be considered an evolution of the Ryû/Ken stereotype, Lilith is, in turn, an evolution of Morrigan. And indeed, her projectile as slow and short ranged as Dan's gadôken, and her shining blade is so weak that many consider Lilith lacks any form of antiair. On the other hand, her luminous illusion is a bit stronger than her model's, and most of her strategy revolves around creating the opportunity to land a destructive chain combo ending with this move (a chain luminous).
Lilith as a lot of trouble against some characters, and the fragility of some of her most important moves is a concern of every instant, but the rather high speed of the game helps her to pressure downed opponents with her very useful dash. So, yeah, she's weak, but her general concept is extremely clear, which allows skilled players to win matches when all seems lost.
Moves
Soul Flash : 236P
Lilith’s projectile isn’t a hadôken at all. It has short range, is slow, and stops in mid-air.
The air version is extremely useful. 2369P will protect you when you dash forward, and is one of the most important techniques you will need to master early on.
The ground version is also useful to cancel moves such as standing middle punch or crouching middle kick. The ES version can be used like Jedah’s Dio Sega. With some practice, you can build an interesting and damaging combo with it.
Shining Blade : 623P
The antiair/guard cancel. Really weak compared to Morrigan and Dimitri’s : not only is it common to be crushed by an opponent’s jumping attack (even though, you know, beating those seems to be the main concept of this move) but the offense window doesn’t reach Lilith’s feet ; in other words, your GC won’t be able to hit a crouching opponent. The ESGC version is unguardable, but it doesn’t make it better at hitting small opponents.
But, well. Even a rotten Shôryûken is still a Shôryûken. Don’t trust it too much, but find out what distance and timing is safe to use it.
Merry Turn : 214K
Tatsumaki Senpûkyaku. The computer likes this move a lot. Unfortunately, it only seems useful because of the computer’s high attack and fast imput reaction; when you will be playing Lilith, you will find that it is hard to land, recover slowly, and is basically useless.
By the way, you can do the move in the air in Savior 2. Surprisingly, it didn’t made it any better.
Mystic Arrow : 63214P
This should be Lilith’s command throw… Except it isn’t. Before grabbing your opponent, Lilith will jump forward (the distance depends on the button pressed, but it also slightly autoaims your opponent).
It’s easy to predict, and slow to recover. Maybe you can use it as a surprise attack to cancel a standing weak or medium punch? Not very useful anyway. The ES version allows amusing follow ups (Luminous or Puppet Show) but that doesn’t make it any easier to use. Forget it.
EX MOVES
Luminous Illusion : WP WP forward WK SP
Lilith’s Darkness illusion. Great in combo, or even by itself, as a counter move. Lilith flies even in the ground version, and has a very small vulnerability window. Especially glorious when you have been thrown down by an opponent who likes applying pressure with crouching attacks.
The air version is slightly different from Morrigan’s, and is better. It has a frame of total invincibility on the beginning, and can be used either during an air chain combo or after you have air guarded anything (if your imput is fast enough). A very powerful move.
Splendor Love : 623KK
Strip-tease move. Can barely be used for chip damage and elegant finish.
Gloomy Puppet Show : 41236PP
If you feel like using 2 gauges for a very dangerous antiair where you have to anticipate your opponent’s move before he even jumps, go on. It’s possible to score over 200 points, but the damage stops at 108 points.
Lilith’s strength
The most striking asset of Lilith is the sheer amount of damage she can deal at very close range. It is possible to kill an opponent with two well timed chain luminous. Besides, her strong punch normal throw allows her to pressure with deadly accuracy. A lot of mind game will happen there, since a single low kick can lead to devastating consequences.
Her normal moves aren't that great, but her ground dash is so useful you can almost consider it as one of her special moves. This dash alone makes her a character with surprisingly long range on her normals. Her standing strong punch is terrific, attacks all heights, and the dash makes it even faster and deadlier. Don't forget the air Soul Flash to cover you, and the chain luminous afterwards.
She is also able to store some gauge very fast (well, depending on the player), which is invaluable when all of her game resolves around one EX move.
Weaknesses
First, her strong kick SUCKS. It's slow, it can't chain, its range is below par, etc.
As I said, Lilith lacks a good antiair. But even worse: she doesn't have a command throw to rely on and put your enemy down. To gain the advantage, you will have to play against the game system and try to shining blade at the very last moment, when your jumping opponent will input a normal move.
As an Anakaris player, I know how difficult it is to lack a command throw. You can't reliably break the guard of a turtling opponent, and you can't rely on your command throw to deal easy damage. Of course, pressuring a downed opponent is powerful, but if your opponent escapes your normal throw, there's no much Lilith can do. To make things worse, she even lacks a good overhead to cover this. For a character that relies so much on one close-range combo, that's the biggest flaw.
Finally, Lilith's gameplay is rather monotonous, and she may become easy to predict with some experience. She is a simple character, for better and for worse.
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| Iggy 8845th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Dimitri" , posted Fri 13 Feb 02:46:
Dimitri
There's one word that can perfectly describe Dimitri: plain.
You will need a lot of concentration and nerves to win consistently with him, and the only thing you’re going to get out of it is a bored audience.
Dimitri’s main fighting style revolves around shooting down your opponent and pressuring him when he wakes up. But it’s not because he has powerful pressure options: he’s as plain as can be, no particular strengths or weaknesses. The main reason why this strategy works well with Dimitri is because he excels in the step before the pressure: get his opponent down: crouching SK, Demon Cradle, (air) Chaos Flare or Bat Spin when hitting in the air, normal throw, command throw, and Midnight Pleasure (The Midnight Bliss doesn’t count, because you can’t pressure after it).
The first thing you’ll have to learn to play Dimitri is to study all these moves and think about how to best use them.
Once your opponent is down, you can get close and pressure him. To do so, you can walk, dash, or Bat Spin. Use the option most suited to your particular situation.
Now that you’re close, how are you going to pressure him? You can throw random normal moves he’ll probably block, or normal throw, or Pleasure. But Pleasure requires 2 gauges: you’ll have to think of your gauge at all times. The SP normal throw allows you to continue your pressuring even if the opponent ukemi after it, so don’t hesitate.
One thing you have to keep in mind at all times is that Dimitri is not very good when he has to attack. His best, and for some players only offensive option, is a normal jump+MK. It’s hard to punish with an anti air, rather a good crossup move, and open good opportunities when hitting deep.
Overall, Dimitri’s biggest problem is that it’s a high maintenance character with low returns. It’s not very hard to win with him (he’s considered mid-tier, I think?) but he’s just not that fun to play. Use him only if you find that playstyle appealing.
Moves
Chaos Flare: 236P
Hadôken. Stuns the opponent while the bat bites him (you can shorten the stun if you go wild on your controller). Weak/medium/strong/ES are faster and travel farther.
Like most projectiles in Savior, only shoot this when far away (and in some circumstances, even this can be dangerous). A good option would be to use it with a back dash. Most useful when you need to store more gauge. Even better: back jump SK→MK→low air chaos flare, especially against flying or huge opponents.
Demon Cradle: 623P
The best shôryûken of the game. It has real invincibility, and even more important, it only has a 1 frame landing latency. It deals good damage, and is one of the best GC as well. The ES version hits 8 times and is a fearsome weapon, and the ESGC is unguardable. The alternate Dash Demon Cradle, while tricky to use, is also particularly effective.
The lack of landing frames allow you to miss with it on purpose, as a feint (since you can do another Cradle immediately afterwards) or simply to store gauge. Just be careful against someone who knows the trick.
Bat Spin: 214K
An offensive teleport. Appears at different distances according to the strength of the button (the ES version appears at the same distance as the MK version).
It’s a very difficult move to use, because you can be punished even if your move hits. You need to be very careful when you use it to land a hit safely, and even chain with a ground combo. It doesn’t mean the move is useless: high level Dimitri players use this very effectively, for example to attack an opponent as he wakes up. Using it as a teleport, not a weapon, is slightly easier to do, and you can do a Midnight Pleasure immediately after landing.
Negative Stolen: 360°P
Most players forget the existence of this move, but it’s not useless by any mean. It’s not a great command throw, but it has one advantage over the normal one: you can do it during a dash, which is very useful in situations when you should do a Pleasure or a Bliss, but don’t have the gauge to do so; your opponent will think it’s safe to block, and you’ll get him. Just don’t use this too much: once your opponent is remembered of the move, it loses all its benefit.
EX Moves
Midnight Bliss 263PP
The woman transformation. Not very useful, since the Pleasure is better in every possible way, except it uses twice as much gauge. The Bliss only needs 1, and deals quite a lot of damage (and most of it is red damage).
Use it when you have only one gauge; for example after a jump, if you cancel the landing animation with a WK then Bliss.
Demon Billion: 263KK
Shoots lots of bats while Dimitri walks forward (keep an eye on his shadow). Slow, easy to counter, only useful when the computer uses it.
Midnight Pleasure: WP MP forward MK MK
Dimitri will grab your opponent immediately after you’ve pushed the last MK button. You can cancel anything, LK, LK→dash→Pleasure, whatever→dash Pleasure. 2 gauges is an expensive price to pay, but that’s 2 gauges well spent. Once you’ve mastered this move and the EX Demon Cradle, you will be able to kill an opponent in the blink of an eye.
Overview
Two moves: the Demon Cradle and the Midnight Pleasure.
The Cradle is extremely useful, even though it’s a bit hard to use if you try to play Dimitri like he was a SF2 character. The versatility of this move is wonderful: powerful antiair, reaching the other side of the screen when mixed with a dash, chain combo finisher, destructive ESGC…
Basically: study this move a lot, you can’t go wrong with it. This move alone could win a fight. And on the other hand, the biggest reason a Dimitri might lose would be the number of failed or misused cradle in a match.
The Pleasure doesn’t even require an explanation. And fortunately, to fuel the Pleasure and the ES Cradle, Dimitri happens to be one of the characters who can store some gauge the fastest, so go wild with it.
Finally, his invisible dash and the bat spin can be used to retreat safely on the other side of the screen.
But Dimitri has his share of weaknesses.
Once you’ve played some other characters, his bluntness might surprise you. His jump is short and straightforward, while his dash can’t be stopped by anything but a special move or a provocation. He has no overhead, is rather wide and tall, and has mediocre normals, which he can’t use during his dashes so Lilith’s techniques are totally out of the question.
In other words, once your opponent is down, you have 50% of chances to continue, and 50% to have your opponent escape and to have to start all over again. You can’t be aggressive too much, and think about the best opportunities to let the opponent come to you. But if you’re not aggressive enough, you won’t make your opponent fall down, and you won’t be able to deal any kind of significant damage.
The Demon Cradle is the key to everything. This move alone covers almost all of Dimitri’s defensive needs, and can turn the tables quickly.
But it doesn’t help the fact that there are so many more interesting characters to play as.
[this message was edited by Iggy on Fri 13 Feb 09:19] |
| Iggy 8845th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Morrigan" , posted Fri 13 Feb 09:30
…. But unfortunately, not Morrigan.
Everyone knows the Hadô (Soul Fist) Shôryû (Shadow Blade) Chain Darkness heroin.
For some reason, she’s always considered “a good character for a beginner”, but that’s something I never quite understood, with the weird dash-flight she usually has (and when she loses it, like in MvC2, it’s not even Morrigan anymore).
She was top tier in Vampire Hunter, then nerfed in Savior (and badly), then (badly) un-nerfed in Savior 2. All in all, the Savior 1 version keeps the Morrigan flavour, but seems to inherit all the weaknesses of Dimitri and Lilith without any of their strengths. Some players even think she’s weaker than Anakaris, and that’s saying a lot.
She pays for her excess in Hunter: she was one of the strongest attackers of the game, and had very strong defenses. But in Savior 1, she lost points on both sides, without gaining any new edge against the new characters and systems.
But she’s still Morrigan, and many players use her as a secondary character. After all, you can’t be totally helpless with a hadô/shôryû character, can you ?
Moves
Not much to say on her basic moves: the soul fist is good, but it’s the air version you will learn to love. The shadow blade is as strong as it can be in such a game, but has interesting properties: for example, Morrigan will land facing the opposing side after it, so you will need to input 423P if for a reason you ever want to do an home-made shôryûreppa : 4 before you land, 2 whenever, and 3 after you landed.
Not that it’s interesting or anything.
Also, the ES version doesn’t make Morrigan wider: the illusions are above her, and only the last silhouette of Morrigan is vulnerable, which makes the move much stronger (and the ESGC is unguardable, but you should know that).
Vector Drain: 63214P
The command throw might be Morrigan’s ultimate weapon. 4 frames to throw, 4 frames of invincibility, useful as a pressure weapon, after an empty jump, a dash attack or feint, etc. The dash SK+Vector Drain is so powerful it's nearly cheating. A character without a good invincible antiair will have a lot of trouble against it.
The ES version deals more damage, but that may not be the wisest use of your gauge. The normal version is damaging enough.
EX moves.
Valkyrie Turn: 63214KK
A mysterious move Morrigan kept in almost all of her incarnations. Mostly useful to escape very dangerous situations, like Aulbath’s bubble trap, Gallon’s Dragon Canon, Leilei’s Jiraitô or Tenraiha...
Darkness Illusion: WP WP forward WK SP
Terrible, terrible nerf: the move lost all glimpse of invincibility, and can even be crushed by weak punches. Only use it in combos. Unfortunately, Lilith seems to have fled her original body with most of the Illusion chromosomes, because her version is much better and deals more damage than the original.
Finishing Shower: MP WP back WK MK
A boring move that can only be used to finish a character very low in health. The only time you can actually hit someone with this is against Anakaris (which is both funny and sad). An Anakaris who would have misread your moves and launched a Togame no Ana will stay still long enough to be Finishing Showered (and you can combo with a Cryptic Needle! How do you say “neta combo” in English ?).
Cryptic Needle: forward, SP MP WP forward
Final EX move, and as mysterious as the Valkyrie and the Shower. It’s actually a projectile, and it deals almost only red damage, so it actually has a real use. Use it against any projectile, or a dash or jump you predict. Don’t use it too much, because it’s far from reliable. On the other hand, it’s your best weapon against a Tenraiha-happy Leilei that forgot to trap you in the corner. A weapon only high-level players use effectively.
Overview
Morrigan is still Morrigan. She has a lot of options when close, a Chain Darkness, and a lot of pressure options. Her normal throw deals the same damage when the opponent escapes the throw and when he doesn’t, and the command throw is very reliable. She’s much weaker than Sasquatch, but she remains an attack character at heart.
The air soul fist might not be as noticeable as the chain darkness and the command throw, but it's actually one of her biggest assets. It punish anti-air-happy players, and the ES air version hit fully and shoots the opponent down whether he is in the air or not.
She DOES have several useful options, even in this game.
But.
It’s hard to use them. Her air dash is not at all as easy to use as the other flying characters', and it is easier to punish. She is an attack character that has to get close to be effective, but her defense and even her attack are average at best. She is helpless at far range. She needs her Darkness illusion and ES moves, but is very bad at storing her gauge. Some high level Morrigan players even let the opponent hit them on the ground to gain a few pixels of power gauge.
The Shadow Blade is good, yes, but, it’s nothing as great as Dimitri’s Demon Cradle, and she can be heavily punished if she uses it mindlessly. And her defense is so low one error can mean the entire match is over.
In other words, one of the biggest weakness of Savior 1 Morrigan is that you can’t trust any of her weapons, yet you need them all the time.
|
| Iggy 8856th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Aulbath" , posted Sat 21 Feb 07:51
Ah, crap. I forgot Zabel.
AGAIN.
I always forget Zabel.
Anyway. Aulbath is the 3rd character I don’t like in a row, so sorry if I sound less interested recently.
But Aulbath is just not a thrilling character. The main technique with him involves building gauge as fast as possible, then trapping your opponent in the corner, killing him with an inescapable bubble trap, then having your face punched repeatedly IRL by your angry opponent.
The bubble trap is a stupid bug that should never have been in the game. Nobody likes the Bubble trap, nor Aulbath. The sad part is that since nobody ever use anything else with him, there are plenty of territory left unexplored: his normal and special moves are really good, his dash is great, most of his moves are safe on guard, he has several different throws that are both varied and powerful, and I’m sure he could have been amongst the top tiers of the game even without the bubble trap, if he had been studied thoughtfully. But why waste your time when you can abuse a bug move and be done with it?
Moves
Sonic Wave : hold back, forward+P
Good when you shift from defense to attack. Follow up with a standing SP. Very good ES version.
Poison Breath : hold back, forward+K
The key to the Bubble Trap. The ES version is so safe you can even trade a hit for it.
Trick Fish: 623K or K during back dash
Jump attack at a weird angle. Rather slow, not a great GC. The second input method is a great trick, but it gets old fast.
Crystal Lancer: 63214 P
The punch command throw. 1 frame throw, with invincibility, really great move. Dash, then Crystal.
With kick, it also has invincibility, but only throw at 6 frames. I suppose great technical Aulbath players, if they exist, can use it at their advantage, but I don't see how.
EX Moves
Sea Rage 41236PP
The tsunami. Not used a lot, but deals good damage, and a good pressure weapon.
In some very specific cases, like a Zabel who misused his hell's gate, your opponent might get stuck behind you when you do this, and eat obscene amount of damage. If you can foresee this, or an opponent trying to escape your bubble trap, try this ; it's hard to land perfectly, but the returns are huge.
Aqua Spread 632PP or KK
Water pillar. Useless.
Direct Scissors: 22PP (uses 3 gauges, only if you selected Aulbath with his original colors, with WP or MP).
A meta reference to a bug of the first Vampire game, where his crouching SP was an overhead.
Water Jail : 623PP
The bubble. Aulbath's signature move, which brings terror and hate to the Savior world since day 1.
It's actually a very versatile move, that skilled players can use in quite a lot of situations, as a trap, a shield, a feint...
But its main use is the bubble trap. Everybody loathe this, and it's very simple: in the corner, bubble→poison→chain combo starting with a jump attack and ending with a crouching strong kick→ repeat. For example, jump (WK→SP)→ground (standing Mpx2→standing MK→crouching SK)→bubble.
If you get the timing of the bubble right, you can imprison your opponent again, and repeat at nauseam.
Strength
The general style of Aulbath is to wait, build gauge, then launch a bubble trap. He has lots of moves to build this strategy, like the sonic wave and poison breath which can stop most attacks while building some gauge. His dash is also very good, can be used to run under an aggressive jump, and most of his moves are anime attacks (a special type of animation which allow to have your moves guarded at low risk, which were cut off the DC version). The powerful command throws further strengthen his dash. Finally, his low air WK is a great overhead.
And if having a strong attack and defense on the ground wasn't enough, he's also quite good in the air. Air guard an attack, then jump MP, for example, or mix a few weak attacks for good mesure, or escape on the ground...
And the bubble trap.
Weaknesses
Since Aulbath needs to temporize for the first part of the fight, he could have used a better antiair than what he currently has, and his GC is not very good... A very aggressive opponent might be hard to contain.
The bubble trap can be escaped, requiring you to adapt your strategy if your bubble missed.
Also, some people take very seriously players who use bugs and unescapable traps.
Just sayin'.
|
| Iron D 3177th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):Aulbath" , posted Sun 22 Feb 07:23:
quote:
Ah, crap. I forgot Zabel.
AGAIN.
I always forget Zabel.
Anyway. Aulbath is the 3rd character I don’t like in a row, so sorry if I sound less interested recently.
But Aulbath is just not a thrilling character. The main technique with him involves building gauge as fast as possible, then trapping your opponent in the corner, killing him with an inescapable bubble trap, then having your face punched repeatedly IRL by your angry opponent.
The bubble trap is a stupid bug that should never have been in the game. Nobody likes the Bubble trap, nor Aulbath. The sad part is that since nobody ever use anything else with him, there are plenty of territory left unexplored: his normal and special moves are really good, his dash is great, most of his moves are safe on guard, he has several different throws that are both varied and powerful, and I’m sure he could have been amongst the top tiers of the game even without the bubble trap, if he had been studied thoughtfully. But why waste your time when you can abuse a bug move and be done with it?
Moves
Sonic Wave : hold back, forward+P
Good when you shift from defense to attack. Follow up with a standing SP. Very good ES version.
Poison Breath : hold back, forward+K
The key to the Bubble Trap. The ES version is so safe you can even trade a hit for it.
Trick Fish: 623K or K during back dash
Jump attack at a weird angle. Rather slow, not a great GC. The second input method is a great trick, but it gets old fast.
Crystal Lancer: 63214 P
The punch command throw. 1 frame throw, with invincibility, really great move. Dash, then Crystal.
With kick, it also has invincibility, but only throw at 6 frames. I suppose great technical Aulbath players, if they exist, can use it at their advantage, but I don't see how.
EX Moves
Sea Rage 41236PP
The tsunami. Not used a lot, but deals good damage, and a good pressure weapon.
In some very specific cases, like a Zabel who misused his hell's gate, your opponent might get stuck behind you when you do this, and eat obscene amount of damage. If you can foresee this, or an opponent trying to escape your bubble trap, try this ; it's hard to land perfectly, but the returns are huge.
Aqua Spread 632PP or KK
Water pillar. Useless.
Direct Scissors: 22PP (uses 3 gauges, only if you selected Aulbath with his original colors, with WP or MP).
A meta reference to a bug of the first Vampire game, where his crouching SP was an overhead.
Water Jail : 623PP
The bubble. Aulbath's signature move, which brings terror and hate to the Savior world since day 1.
It's actually a very versatile move, that skilled players can use in quite a lot of situations, as a trap, a shield, a feint...
But its main use is the bubble trap. Everybody loathe this, and it's very simple: in the corner, bubble→poison→chain combo starting with a jump attack and ending with a crouching strong kick→ repeat. For example, jump (WK→SP)→ground (standing Mpx2→standing MK→crouching SK)→bubble.
If you get the timing of the bubble right, you can imprison your opponent again, and repeat at nauseam.
Strength
The general style of Aulbath is to wait, build gauge, then launch a bubble trap. He has lots of moves to build this strategy, like the sonic wave and poison breath which can stop most attacks while building some gauge. His dash is also very good, can be used to run under an aggressive jump, and most of his moves are anime attacks (a special type of animation which allow to have your moves guarded at low risk, which were cut off the DC version). The powerful command throws further strengthen his dash. Finally, his low air WK is a great overhead.
And if having a strong attack and defense on the ground wasn't enough, he's also quite good in the air. Air guard an attack, then jump MP, for example, or mix a few weak attacks for good mesure, or escape on the ground...
And the bubble trap.
Weaknesses
Since Aulbath needs to temporize for the first part of the fight, he could have used a better antiair than what he currently has, and his GC is not very good... A very aggressive opponent might be hard to contain.
The bubble trap can be escaped, requiring you to adapt your strategy if your bubble missed.
Also, some people take very seriously players who use bugs and unescapable traps.
Just sayin'.
Couldn't the bubble trap be escaped by doing a rolling wake-up out of the corner?
Also, while I know this write-up is based on the original arcade VS, would you (or anyone else) know if the bubble trap was nerfed in subsequent versions?
Can't wait for the Jedah write-up. I'm curious to know if Jedah has any useful strategy that DOESN'T involve his projectile.
Er.....
[this message was edited by Iron D on Sun 22 Feb 09:58] |
| Iggy 8859th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Aulbath" , posted Sun 22 Feb 21:42
quote:
Couldn't the bubble trap be escaped by doing a rolling wake-up out of the corner?
That's quite a difficult question.
There are 4 ways to wake up in this game: wake up normally (don't input anything), wake up faster (up+button), roll backward (back+button) or forward (forward+button). Each way has specific rules, and each character has specific length and speed as well, but according to the timing it was launched, the bubble can catch 3 of the 4 techniques. That make the last one (forward roll) quite predictable, and the worst part is that it's not a normal close-distance pressure game: Aulbath will need to be at a medium distance to launch his bubble, so a forward roll woul put you directly in his arms, ready to be thrown (there is a specific window when you wake up during which you can't throw).
Also, now I think of it, some moves have the special property to forbid alternate wake-up techniques, and Aulbath's SK is one of them, if I recall correctly.
So, yeah, you're screwed.
quote:
Also, while I know this write-up is based on the original arcade VS, would you (or anyone else) know if the bubble trap was nerfed in subsequent versions?
Well, you could say it was nerfed... Since that was the last game Aulbath ever appeared in (he was erased from Savior 2).
quote:
Can't wait for the Jedah write-up. I'm curious to know if Jedah has any useful strategy that DOESN'T involve his projectile.
Jedah should be the last character. I have Zabel left, then Jedah, then I can quit Internet forever.
|
| Iggy 8861th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Aulbath" , posted Mon 23 Feb 00:40:
quote:
What about SS Aulbath?
What about Vampire Hunter 2 Aulbath ?
SS Aulbath... Savior Saturn ? EX ? Savior 1 Arrange ? No change.
And nobody plays Hunter 2. I could go and check (well, I can't, but I would if I could), but since most of the changes were dumb and even more unbalancing (Super Jedah and Morrigan, nearly no nerf for Sasquatch, weird tweaks for lilith or Anakaris that didn't really add anything to their gameplay and made them comparatively even weaker...) I don't see the point.
Nekros: Oh, no, Aulbath is definitely not a weak character. His normals alone are good enough to pressure at any level, especially if the opponent doesn't GC consistently. He's a charge character that must not be played defensively like Guile, nor aggressively like Ash; he needs to be studied without any apriori.
And even if you don't use the bubble trap, you should learn to use it. It's a very interesting move, even more powerful than Qbee's honey.
[this message was edited by Iggy on Mon 23 Feb 00:42] |
| Iron D 3177th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Aulbath" , posted Mon 23 Feb 03:08
quote:
What about SS Aulbath?
What about Vampire Hunter 2 Aulbath ?
SS Aulbath... Savior Saturn ? EX ? Savior 1 Arrange ? No change.
And nobody plays Hunter 2. I could go and check (well, I can't, but I would if I could), but since most of the changes were dumb and even more unbalancing (Super Jedah and Morrigan, nearly no nerf for Sasquatch, weird tweaks for lilith or Anakaris that didn't really add anything to their gameplay and made them comparatively even weaker...) I don't see the point.
Nekros: Oh, no, Aulbath is definitely not a weak character. His normals alone are good enough to pressure at any level, especially if the opponent doesn't GC consistently. He's a charge character that must not be played defensively like Guile, nor aggressively like Ash; he needs to be studied without any apriori.
And even if you don't use the bubble trap, you should learn to use it. It's a very interesting move, even more powerful than Qbee's honey.
I see...your post that was a direct reply to my last one combined with this post answers my questions. Thank you, Sir.
Er.....
|
| Iggy 8864th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Zabel" , posted Sun 29 Mar 07:26
Zabel is the rhetorical strongest character of the game. He has great range, strong combos from low-air, powerful antiairs that adapt to any situations, a teleport to evade dangerous traps, crouching moonwalk, unblockable normals... He can do all, and be the best in most of these fields. The problem is that it's so difficult to use the full range of Zabel's arsenal that most high-level players don't manage to use everything at its full potential. They'd rather specialize on a narrower range. Years and years of practice are required to play Zabel at his full potential. And that's not figurative: the game is nearly 12 years old, and very few players in the world can pretend to master Zabel totally, if any.
Special moves
Death Hurricane: 214K
A tatsuununkyaku that can also be done in the air. The distance varies with the button, and when you do it in the air, the curve of the move goes down, which is surprising when done at low altitude.
It was insanely powerful in Hunter as a GC, but it was severely nerfed in Savior. It has its uses, but in most cases the risk is too great to be really worth it.
Skull Sting: 28K
In Hunter, you could kill a beginner by just doing MK/Sting over and over. This move was nerfed in Savior as well: it has a very tiny attack window, and is very hard to connect correctly.
It has its niche uses, like chomping the last pixels of life of a cornered enemy or jumping over Morrigan's finishing shower.
Death Phrase: 623K (Guard cancel only)
Don't get tricked by the animation: only the guitar can hit, not the sound waves.
There's not much to say about the move: it's an GC, nothing sensational. But the ES version is diabolical. When the ES version hits, the opponent is downed, without any way to wake up by rolling, so you can apply an unblocable jump WK on wake up and chain it all the way to an EX move, like jump WK→ jump MK→crouching WK→standingWK→Evil Scream or Death Voltage.
This is absurd.
Hell's Gate: 41236K
A great teleport move. Zabel is invincible on the exact frame the command is entered until the end of the move, and there is almost no lag afterward.
Useful when you are cornered, but predictable: use it when the opponent jumps or dashes towards you. Or back dash or air back dash, and when he comes after you, warp and punish.
Skull Punish: 63214P
The computer loves this move. It has no invincibility, but it's a 1 frame throw, and it deals huge damage. With Zabel's rush, it's a devastating weapon. With SP, it's much easier to pressure afterwards. The ES version deals even more damage, but you are at risk to do an Evil scream instead. If you really want an ES, push WK, MP and SP at the same time: that way, if the move misses, Zabel will do a weak death hurricane instead because of the prevalence of the moves. Or just use the SP version, and be quiet.
You can use it after a dash, an empty jump, a low air dash, to break a turtling opponent... Zabel's pokes are extremely good, so you can throw a couple of pokes to make him guard, then low air dash and command throw.
EX Moves
Hell Dunk: 623PP
A difficult move to use, but can be useful when the opponent is on the other side of the screen. Good red damage, though less than the other EX.
Be careful, because the opponent only has to input « up » to escape the move. But if you see a projectile or a back jump coming, go ahead.
Evil Scream: 64PP
Deals a lot of read damage, and allows a sure down follow-up, but may miss against a jumping opponent.
You don't have to do 654 (go neutral), and you can also input 63214+PP.
Death Voltage 63214KK
A stronger Death Hurricane. Useful in combos, or to punish an error. It's faster than the Evil Scream, hit in the air, useful in many situations.
In Hunter, you could do it during a low airdash and use it as an overhead, but the offensive window was narrowed and the course was changed in Savior to make this technique impossible.
Because of this nerf, it's not as strong as it looks, and can be risky if you don't use it carefully.
On the other hand, it's very useful against Jedah: he can't air guard when he glides. If he comes from above, at worst, you can trade a hit, especially since yours is an EX... And if he becomes scared of attacking, well, he's toast.
Most combos can end up with either a Death Voltage or an Evil Scream. Evil deals more red damage, but is a bit slower, doesn't reach as far and requires a fast cancel from your moves. (Death doesn't even requires canceling in most cases). Death seems safer, but an input error can transform it into an ES Death Hurricane.
Also, Evil won't hit a crouching gallon, and neither Evil nor Death will hit a crouching Q.Bee. Be careful about it.
Strengths of Zabel
There are so many I don't know where to begin.
First, the low air dash has an insane combo potential. ¼ of a gauge in red damage at medium range?
Even if you don't go for the most damaging combos, you can just wait for a simple crouching WKx2 to connect, then create your combo afterward. Even Sasquatch and Q-Bee lack a powerful combo starting with a crouching weak move.
His ground dash is also very good, and ground dash WP works wonders to start a surprise combo.
Also, he has the best protection available in the game: strong antiair normals:Sp, Sk, crouchingSP... Each has specific ranges at which they are useful, but if you master them all, there is no move you can't beat in the whole game. And even if you miss, you can still save yourself with a GC or AG.
And then, of course, there's the unguardable. The few other characters who have one require gauge, or specific situations; but Zabel's is just insane. It's a simple jump WK. The final extremity of the move is the ultimate weapon.
It's difficult, because the window is very tiny and every character have different heights, width and shapes, but even if you miss, at worse, it's guarded and you don't risk anything. And since Zabel’s strategy revolves a lot around his low air jump already, it raises the bar at absurd levels. Basically, Zabel can get away with ¼ of your life if you are anywhere on the ground up to half a screen of distance.
Finally, Zabel is the only character in Savior to have forward and back dashes, on the ground and on the air. Since the dash attacks are already powerful in the game, that gives him even more range, and a very easy way to run away if needed. Since there are no rounds in the game, you can dominate a whole match after a few blows.
Weaknesses
Don't you have better things to do with your life than spending years learning a single character in an obscure fighting game?
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| Iggy 8988th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Jedah" , posted Sun 29 Mar 10:05:
In one word: “poor kid”. Jedah's moveset allows a lot of freedom, which makes him a fabulously entertaining character to use, but that freedom doesn't translate into actual strength. He has some strengths, for example a good rushing game, and he's definitely not a hopeless character; but if you look at the whole picture, he is in a very difficult position. One can even wonder if there is any matchup that would be favorable for him.
The key for winning is to know all of your weaknesses and not allow the opponent to take advantage of any of them. Easier said than done, but manageable.
Another key point for Jedah is that he is a very popular character. Like Leilei, some people use him as a sub character, because he's fun to use. But on the other hand, it also means many people know his tricks, and most opponents will be familiar with him one way or the other.
■ Strengths
Jedah’s biggest selling point is the degree of freedom he can achieve in the air with his dash and his glide. He is also one of the characters with the best choice of overheads in the game. It doesn’t mean you can deal damage by pressing buttons randomly, but if you can position yourself with efficiency, you have a huge advantage upon the opponent. Repeated dashes give you a speedy rush game, especially the repeated dash SK which was so popular when the game was first released.
The height of the jump is also a strong asset. Jump=>glide can take you out of many tricky corner situations. You can, and you must, move a lot and take advantage of his leeway. Standing jump can also create a real barrier for your enemy, shutting him down as you get even more freedom.
Dio Sega is the only move in the game with its properties, which help bring Jedah’s originality even more. Placing it in key positions is the most important element in Jedah’s strategy. The ES Sega’s longer placement time allow to trade a hit without much concern as well. It is as good for defense as it is for offense.
And let’s not forget his awesome DF. More on this later.
■Weaknesses
The first one that jump in mind is the scarcity of moves that down the opponent. Jedah is the only character whose crouching SK can’t do that. He doesn’t have any special move to cover that either. None of his bread and butter ground combo does. He is the exact opposite of Dimitri in every possible way.
That alone buts a big strain on his rushing game. In a game where it is extremely important to win quickly because of the impact system, this is a fatal flaw. Even if you manage to land a destructive combo, you have to start your strategy from scratch, you have no way to apply more pressure and take advantage of what you’ve done.
Also, his normal are not very strong nor reliable, which doesn’t help.
I’m not saying he’s bad at everything, but it’s very hard to stay on top for the whole duration of the match with Jedah. You’ll spend most of your time concentrating on your weaknesses and how you can cover them, while even Anakaris has some periods when he dominates what’s going on (usually for small periods of 3 seconds, but still).
Jedah also has a lot of defense problems. First, he’s very tall. Standing, crouching, jumping, attacking, he still has one of the biggest vulnerability window in the game whatever he does. It is a very problematic point for such a mobile character.
His GC has a great horizontal reach, but it’s slow, and doesn’t reach up high, so it’s highly unreliable. The ESGC is useless, because the first 2 hit don’t down and you can have your ESGC countered, which doesn’t look good.
That means if the opponent gets close to you, your best option is to just move out of his way, which is neither easy nor very useful to deal damage.
Finally, his throws are crap. Not only can’t he use them to apply pressure, but his standing MP and SP, which sometimes come out when you try to tech hit a throw, are very, very bad.
And if you throw your opponent in the corner but he ukemi, he’ll be able to move before you and throw YOU. If only the command throw had been good, but there’s nothing good there either.
MOVES
■ Dio Sega 236+P
A projectile that stays in the air for a while. The altitude varies with the button pressed: on the ground, the stronger, the higher, and in the air, the stronger, the lower. The ES version is a bigger MP projectile that stays longer and hit 5 times. Also, it stays there even if Jedah takes damage after having thrown it, and trading a hit with an ESSega is an important part of Jedah's arsenal.
The important strategy is not to throw it on your opponent, but just in front of him. Having a Sega set as you attack makes everything much easier. Use the air version as a cancel for any move, especially while gliding or dashing. Extremely useful.
If the opponent tries to jump above it, you can push it back with an ADG on your Sega. Very useful when you can't shoot him down, or against someone with a strong air-to-ground arsenal.
■ Nero Fatica 214+P
Leaves nails trails while sliding back. It is considered as a throw, so it can't be guarded.
Its offensive range is not that wide, and it's not very reliable as an antiair. Also, it leaves you wide open after the slide back, especially when cornered if you don't have anywhere to flee. It is a very risky move that you must only use when you know what to do with it. For example, if the opponent guarded an air ES Sega, or if you see him about to jump. Most of all, DO NOT use it too often. Still, it's great against Lilith's high jump.
■ Ira Spinta 63214+K in the air
Makes you float, then rush down and grab your enemy. It's a throw, again. Be careful, as you're totally defenseless when you float. You also need to adjust your range with the correct button.
Like the Sega, it is used as a cancel move for normal air attacks. Can be useful when your opponent is cornered. On the other hand, if he knows you're going to use it, he'll counter when you're in the air, or run under you. Only use it as a surprise attack, very rarely.
Another very niche use is when you got yourself cornered. The weak version will catch the opponent as he rushes to you. Again, don't use that too much.
■ Ira Piano (P during Ira Spinta)
Replaces the above move with an attack. It's slower, so it can catch off guard an opponent that would have countered the former; but it can be guarded, and it's so slow it's almost useless.
■ Sp.Regio 623P (Guard Cancel)
The Guard Cancel. It's slow and not as reliable as you would need it. But it downs your opponent, which is extremely important for Jedah, and can create many opportunities to come back into the match. The ES version hits 3 times, but only the 3rd hit downs, so if this one miss, you're in a lot of trouble. Don't use the ES version too much, especially when the opponent is in the air.
Interesting detail: it is the farthest-reaching GC in the game. If an opponent throws a projectile at you when the fight begins, you could GC and hit him from your starting position. Very useful against an opponent that keeps shooting projectiles at you.
■ Sangue Passare 63214＋MK or SK near opponent
It’s a command throw, but it has no invincibility and takes 5 frames to actually grab your opponent. Its usefulness is more than questionable. The damage output is not bad, so if your opponent falls asleep, you can try to use it. Also, there is no ES version for this move.
(Amongst the silly, silly things Savior 2 did, it made this move completely invincible, which instantly transformed Jedah into an unstoppable monster. Making the Sp.Regio a normal move was a careless idea as well… What a stupid update).
EX MOVES
■ Finale Rosso 22+PP
Takes the opponent to another dimension. The gate appears the very frame the move is input, and automatically where the opponent stands. Of course, it can’t grab an opponent in the air (not even during the animation before jumping). You can follow-up after this.
The move leaves you wide open, so use it as a surprise attack from a distance, when the opponent does something slow like throwing a projectile at you, or when he jumps back (you can grab him during the landing animation).
Against the computer, just set a Sega and use this move at nauseam.
■ Prova di Servo 41236+KK+K
The contract move. He cuts his wrists, and the blood (which is not blood but whatever) grabs the opponent. But remember that as long as you don’t push the last K button, the move doesn’t do anything. Timing is important, because you’re wide open in the meantime.
It can be used in an offensive fashion, for example cancelling a few crouching WK, or immediately after landing when you dash attacked. But remember the risk after that is huge, so use that scarcely.
The damage output is bigger then Rosso’s, but Rosso leaves you in a better position afterwards to follow-up or pressure. Everything depends on the situation.
■ DARK FORCE : Sanctuario
Jedah’s DF is probably the only DF in the whole game that can be of any help, and probably the move that shows Jedah’s originality the most. It will make him fly freely in the air from the second it starts. Canceling it on the ground is perfectly safe (1 frame) while in the air, it leaves you open until you reach the ground.
■When should you use your DF?
This is the most destructive weapon out of Jedah’s arsenal. You can glide after an air Sega, and it allows an easy infinite combo that can last as long as your DF.
It’s also a good defensive weapon, for example to escape when you’re cornered, or to evade an opponent with a strong rushing game, but you are at risk to be shot down as you take off, which would put you in a difficult situation.
You should use it when you foresee it would make an enemy attack miss (for example a jump or a dash attack), then use the diversion to flee on the other side of the screen. But it’s difficult to shift from defense to attack with this move; instead of wasting precious time (and gauge) to create the opportunity to attack, you should differentiate these two uses. If you want to attack, use your DF when the enemy is down (after a throw, a glide or a Sega for example).
■What now?
Flying down on your opponent with a MK →SK, then once on the ground mix crouching and overheads (not your regular dashing overhead, but a low flying attack) is good, or add a few pokes to have the opponent retreat so you can cancel the DF safely.
When you’re going for your MK →SK chain, try to aim for an overhead. That way, you should be able to evade most antiair-type GC (except Dimitri’s).
Flying to the other side of the screen as soon as you start the DP is a good way to put yourself in security as well, to escape a powerful rush and recover some white damage. The most important here is to find a safe place to land.
It is rather difficult to move freely in the air, and getting hit even once can put you in very dangerous positions. It requires a lot of experience to be used correctly, but will be your bigger source of damage and best defensive weapon at the same time if you get the hold of it.
■Infinite during the DF
jump low, (WP →WK→ MP→ MK → SP → SK)×ｎ on a standing opponent.
Keep the joystick forward as you hit so you can follow your victim’s hit back, and you need to land then jump again between each loop, so it’s not easy to pull out at first.
Also, the number of hit is rather big, so it deals mostly white damage. It’s not the ultimate weapon you would wish it is, so try to use it to kill your enemy with the white damage.
■Other useful stuff with your DF
Low in the air, (MK → SK)×ｎ
An overhead from the air, using the DF’s special properties. Extremely useful. You can land and jump immediately for another overhead, but don’t forget to mix some crouching attack here and there to confuse your opponent.
Dash MP or SK → Weak or ES Dio Sega
During your DF, you can cancel your dash attack with a Sega then immediately land to cancel the lag of your projectile. This allow you to attack as soon as the trap is set, using it as a shield. Extremely useful.
Here! I'm done!
[this message was edited by Iggy on Sat 3 Oct 07:53] |
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