Lag problem on Taito's Type X : truth ? - http://www.mmcafe.com/ Forums


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Iggy
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"Lag problem on Taito's Type X : truth ?" , posted Mon 24 Mar 19:40post reply

You might remember the first location tests of KOF 98UM, when many people complained about the imput lag. It seems the lag is much lighter in the finished product, but it's still there, more or less.

Just today, I found an interesting post on a 98UM BBS. Of course, there is no way to know how reliable is the poster, and it might well be total bullshit. But if someone has any clue about technical stuff, I would be interested to hear more (I know how knowledgeable the MMC posters can be after the insightful comments on SF2HD here).

Sorry for the rough translation, I'm not very keen on computer architecture and stuff :

quote:
There is at least 2 frames of imput lag.
The Type-X (and X2) use the new JAMA model, which ALWAYS produces lag. Other machines like the MVS use the old one, so they don't have any.
Also, the machines based on a PC like the Type-X have two separate elements (???), one being the main element, and the other the signal element. There is at least 1 frame of lag when the data transits from one element to the other (something that didn't happened on older machines, since the two elements were combined in one).
It means SF4, Blaze Blue Whatever, Samurai Sen or KOF XII will have this very small lag. But since they are all new titles, we won't notice it : it will just be "the way the game plays". In 98UM's case, on the other hand, we all compare the imputs to the ones we are used to in 98, and that's why many experienced players feel the lag.
Since the board of Arcana 2 is an old JAMA modified in Korea, it might be lag-free ?







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Time Mage
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"Re(1):Lag problem on Taito's Type X : truth ?" , posted Mon 24 Mar 20:55post reply

I read reports about SFIV having input lag, so this might not be that difficult to believe.

However, and considering the importance of lag in fighting games, I''d be a bit surprised if the own developers didn't know this. I suppose they should have the tools to test and precisely measure the lag, right?

Anyway, as the quote says, this might only be noticeable on KOF98UM, because people already have the right timing in their heads from the original KOF98.

This is really interesting, so if you find more reports on this issue, I'd love to know about them.





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"Re(1):Lag problem on Taito's Type X : truth ?" , posted Mon 24 Mar 23:02post reply

quote:
Also, the machines based on a PC like the Type-X have two separate elements (???)


I suppose that this means that there are two "chipsets" that are "separate" within the board, and they exchange info through circuits. If the taito is indeed based on a Pc, then said lag problem is fairly possible and explainable, since my early days working on 386s I have always heard that "as more complicated chipset are created, "the more time" the electric signal takes to travel through the board", even though the distance / speed theorem applies on electronics, since the time it takes travel is so small, users don't usually realize that there is a delay, but as a gamer, I know that there are certain times where we really do as much use as we can from one second.

Also, pc hardware is considered among the "slowest" (or less efficient) type of circuits, even though we percieve them to be fairly fast.

I wonder if this statement imply that 98 the ps2 might be able to better handle this issue than the taito X2.





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"Re(2):Lag problem on Taito's Type X : truth ?" , posted Tue 25 Mar 06:19post reply

quote:
You might remember the first location tests of KOF 98UM, when many people complained about the imput lag. It seems the lag is much lighter in the finished product, but it's still there, more or less.

Just today, I found an interesting post on a 98UM BBS. Of course, there is no way to know how reliable is the poster, and it might well be total bullshit. But if someone has any clue about technical stuff, I would be interested to hear more (I know how knowledgeable the MMC posters can be after the insightful comments on SF2HD here).

Sorry for the rough translation, I'm not very keen on computer architecture and stuff :

There is at least 2 frames of imput lag.
The Type-X (and X2) use the new JAMA model, which ALWAYS produces lag. Other machines like the MVS use the old one, so they don't have any.
Also, the machines based on a PC like the Type-X have two separate elements (???), one being the main element, and the other the signal element. There is at least 1 frame of lag when the data transits from one element to the other (something that didn't happened on older machines, since the two elements were combined in one).
It means SF4, Blaze Blue Whatever, Samurai Sen or KOF XII will have this very small lag. But since they are all new titles, we won't notice it : it will just be "the way the game plays". In 98UM's case, on the other hand, we all compare the imputs to the ones we are used to in 98, and that's why many experienced players feel the lag.
Since the board of Arcana 2 is an old JAMA modified in Korea, it might be lag-free ?



The idea of "controller lag" can be a little funny. ALL games have controller lag to a certain degree; the question is just how much, and whether or not it's constant/consistent.

Differences of 1 frame from input tend not to be really noticeable, unless you are performing some profoundly difficult 1-frame links, in which case this difference can be significantly expressed... but only really if this delay fluctutates (imagine that sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not... when 1 frame is the measure of success/failure, you can imagine how nerve-wracking it would be!), or if you are comparing it to the same game without this delay (again, you can imagine needing to shift all your timing for that familiar 1-frame link by 1 frame).

What this post sounds like it's describing is that there is a divide between the input system on the JAMMA and the X2, such that there is some additional input conversion. This can result in controller latency, as is often observed when people use PS2/DC/whatever controller convertors and complain about lag. Emulation (which I doubt is a problem here) is another source of input latency; it is well-observed that many emulators cause input latency because of the additional processing that needs to be done. MAME is known to be one of the laggier emulators. Of course, "signal element" might be in reference to the output signal (i.e. video). So it might be a lag in 3 acts: input to main, main to display, and maybe even something in the display itself. To be honest, without proper experimentation or REALLY AUTHORITATIVE knowledge, pinning it down to a single thing and with such a precise value (i.e. 2 frames!) is really just speculation.

But like the source post said, if it's a new game and it's consistent throughout the game, it tends not to be terribly important unless the latency is so large that it makes the game feel weird.

Everyone's favourite video on this subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8wGYtqnd1A

It was noted that in the past, the DC version of SF2 was said to have "significant input lag", which has since proven to be false by the above. What's funnier, one of the proponents of that idea was the person who made that video! He later chalked it up to the game's slightly odd resolution that made it feel funny.