First Street Fighter Screenshot - http://www.mmcafe.com/ Forums


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repukken
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"First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 17:43:post reply

Check out the screenshot, what'd you guys think so far?

SF4 Image





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[this message was edited by repukken on Thu 6 Dec 17:43]

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EddyT
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"Re(1):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 18:36post reply

quote:
Check out the screenshot, what'd you guys think so far?

SF4 Image



I just hope it plays well, but at least now we can confirm it's 3D completely. So far, it looks okay to me.





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"Re(2):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 19:10post reply

quote:
Check out the screenshot, what'd you guys think so far?

SF4 Image


I just hope it plays well, but at least now we can confirm it's 3D completely. So far, it looks okay to me.



It needs to be renamed as Street Fighter EX 4...





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"Re(3):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 19:22post reply

quote:

It needs to be renamed as Street Fighter EX 4...



Beat me to it! I was about to make a SFEX comment!

I could harp on giant feet or poorly-rendered background people, but really at this point, the only thing worth saying is that if it was actually SFEX 4, I'd say "that's a pretty nice improvement and maybe some consolation that we'll never see a SF4"...but as SF4, well...I dunno...

Did that make any sense?





CPSIII
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"Re(3):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 19:28post reply

Your lack of faith is disturbing. This is probably the most pessemistic board I've ever seen, everything that's not some whacky anime stuff ist stomped into the ground.

Personally, I really dig the art style. I expected a Tekken or VF clone but this really pleases me... well except for the cover image of ryu that looks funky.





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CPSIII
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"Re(4):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 19:59post reply

By the way, Ryu, Ken, Chunli & Dalshim are confirmed and that it will have 2D gameplay.





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Just a Person
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"Re(5):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 20:15post reply

Well, it doesn't look bad. But given the graphic power provided by the current consoles and arcades, it could look a little bit better (unless this game is for Wii; then it would actually be a great looking game).

But who knows? Maybe it has a great animation that makes the graphics fit well into the game. Some 3D games aren't strong in graphics but they compensate in everything else (like the Smash Bros. series, for instance).

Oh, and the background looks nice. And Ryu looks a little older.

quote:
By the way, Ryu, Ken, Chunli & Dalshim are confirmed and that it will have 2D gameplay.



Really? Where was it confirmed??





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"Re(1):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 20:17post reply

My biggest concern is that the background is reminiscent of Chunli's SF2 one, and Ryű looks like they tried to insert polygons in that drawing by Akiman.
It's what the "tell us what YOU want to see in SF4" made me dread : the game is going to be some sort of fanboy's wet dream, with existing characters (and even backgrounds). There won't be any risk taken, not a single step away from existing titles.

Which means the game (series) won't really be able to be "a totally new series in the SF universe with its own flavour". At best, it's going to be a great homage, SFZero3 with SF3 characters in 3D, but without any personality of its own. Which might be cool, but... yet another dream match.
The game is created in the boundaries of that dreadful spiral that started in 98 and killed the genre by preventing it from creating anything new, because the weight of the past is too heavy to be shaken. What SF4 should have been is another SF3 : something that takes everybody by surprise, that all the fan loathe at first because fans don't want to be surprised.
Listening to the fans is the worst possible approach to create a new game. Fans (in general) are dumb, hate novelty and want a their favourite series (whichever it is) to be a rotten body that won't ever, ever be alive again.
I'm even sure the game will have a groove/ism system, which is the epitome of laziness and fear to take bold decisions.

BUT the problem is that nobody in its right state of mind think Capcom USA has the symbolic right to create anything.

Maybe, MAYBE, if they hire some (japanese) people historically tied with the series, and they communicate the hell out of it (which would require them to acknowledge "nobody likes us, so look, we are not creating anything, THEY are, if you don't like this new character, it means you don't like Akiman's art and YOU are the bad fan !!!"), they could get away with creating something new. They need that kind of lightning-rod : even if 90% of the staff is American, they need an Akiman shield.
Even if the game was made by (non-famous but gifted) japanese people, the project is doomed from the start because of the Capcom USA brand.

The way the game is shaping up, it's already doomed to be... SFEX4, SFZero3 3D, Hyper Street Fighter Homage, Ode to Street Fighter, whatever but not a rightful SF4.





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"Re(2):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 20:33post reply

Yup, this is deffinitely not a SF4...at least not for me. C.USA should forget their dream of being hero for resercting the serie. C.Japan could have done it too, but if they didn't there was a valid reason for it.






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"Re(2):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 20:48post reply

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3164756

I agree with iggy that listening to the fans is the worst way to go(Hooray Democracy... =/) everything else I do not.

Wait till you actually hear something about the game rather than judging from a single screen that the Game will be a SFZ3HD and not have anything new and will play like an update. Nothing points to that really... what ever you guys smoke, gimme some.

Capcom USA made Maximo, that's good enough for me to know that they are not completely incompetent. I liked it.

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Count Hihihi
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"Re(3):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 20:59post reply

Guys, do you remember when some Capcom Japan rep said that they will make SF4 when 3D has evolved to the point where it looks like anime.. ..it was something along those lines.

I like super deformed stuff, but this is just deformed. Can't wait to see Ryu throw a Shinkuu Polygen at mr jaggiepantz in the background. Imagine the damage a hurricane kick does with all that abnormal growth flying to your face.
Thanks Capcom.





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"Re(3):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 21:03post reply

quote:
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3164756


HAHAHAHAHAHACAN'T FINDWORDPLEASEKILLMENOW





Pollyanna
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"Re(4):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 21:41post reply

quote:
Your lack of faith is disturbing. This is probably the most pessemistic board I've ever seen, everything that's not some whacky anime stuff ist stomped into the ground.



I agree with the first half of that assessment, but second half denies me the right to complain about things that are "too wacky" and "too anime".





Just a Person
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"Re(4):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 22:10post reply

quote:
HAHAHAHAHAHACAN'T FINDWORDPLEASEKILLMENOW



Now, THAT's a bad image.

Since when has Ryu been on steroids??





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EddyT
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"Re(5):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 22:33:post reply

I'm still worried about the transition to 3D. Yes, I do prefer sprite-based art compared to 3D art when it comes to some fighters like SF, but what comes into question is how responsive and how fluid the game will be when everything is said and done. It's a very legitimate concern. We all know that SF has shined as one of the premier 2D fighters due to the solid gameplay. Almost every 3D fighter I've played feels quite clunky in comparison. We will see if our current arcade/console technology has improved to the point where a 2D series can make a successful jump to the 3D realm without any noticeable hitches.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree... SF going to 3D is truly the end of an era of 2D fighters. I will miss seeing great artwork in spriteworks... it truly has become a dying breed. Maybe someday there will be a 2D renaissance of sorts.





[this message was edited by EddyT on Thu 6 Dec 22:36]

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"Re(3):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 23:20post reply

quote:
Yup, this is deffinitely not a SF4...at least not for me. C.USA should forget their dream of being hero for resercting the serie. C.Japan could have done it too, but if they didn't there was a valid reason for it.



Their reason was not giving a shit.





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"Re(1):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Thu 6 Dec 23:38post reply

oof. a step down to sf3





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"Re(2):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 01:17:post reply

Its OK for a first shot I guess. The background folks could go up a few polygons since this game doesn't look like it will push the limits of the PS3/XBox360.

Kotaku is reporting that DIMPS is the developer

Link Here

Dhalsim is a weird choice for returning character. I hope only a couple more returning characters are announced(Akuma is pretty much a given at this point) and half or nearly half of the roster is new characters.





[this message was edited by GekigangerV on Fri 7 Dec 01:18]

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"Re(2):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 01:18post reply

ROCKS U LIKE A HURRIKANE~!!!

Man, this is really horrible! It gives off an okami vibe, but vile!





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"Re(3):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 01:25post reply

Ryu... seems a little too excited (in the screenshot)... or is that a banana in his pocket?





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"Re(3):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 01:38post reply

quote:
Its OK for a first shot I guess. The background folks could go up a few polygons since this game doesn't look like it will push the limits of the PS3/XBox360.

Kotaku is reporting that DIMPS is the developer

Link Here




Kotaku is full BS

It's developed at Capcom Japan





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"Re(2):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 02:18post reply

quote:

The way the game is shaping up, it's already doomed to be... SFEX4, SFZero3 3D, Hyper Street Fighter Homage, Ode to Street Fighter, whatever but not a rightful SF4.



Hey lets not jump to conclusions now. Lets play the game first then make a proper judgement. The graphics may be 3-d but at least they are trying to make it 2-d, and isn't gameplay the most important thing anyway?

...

hahahahahaha just kidding.

The game looks weird. Ryu's head is too big, and 3-d games have never ever played like 2-d games. If they really do care about gameplay as king, and they want to maintain the sharp 2-d feel of Street Fighter, why not you know... make it 2-d?

Oh well, at least they are using a ramp shader instead of a full on toon shader, which would have been truly insulting.

I hate 3-d that's supposed to look 2-d. It's just an excuse to not draw. Cell shading is to traditional animation as Sunny D is to fresh squeezed orange juice recently picked off of a tree by a beautiful tropical woman with a hand press orange juicer.





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"Re(4):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 02:58post reply

quote:
Its OK for a first shot I guess. The background folks could go up a few polygons since this game doesn't look like it will push the limits of the PS3/XBox360.

Kotaku is reporting that DIMPS is the developer

Link Here



Kotaku is full BS

It's developed at Capcom Japan




That's what I could of sworn also that it was developed at Capcom Japan. Sometimes I don't think they don't really acknowledge news real well or do great sleuthing.

quote:
Ryu... seems a little too excited (in the screenshot)... or is that a banana in his pocket?


On top of the steroids?! Who wouldn't be excited! It is a new SF4! Well heres to hope I suppose for the game eh.






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Just a Person
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"Re(4):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 03:26post reply

quote:
Ryu... seems a little too excited (in the screenshot)... or is that a banana in his pocket?



Maybe he's fighting Chunny ;)





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"Re(5):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 03:43post reply

You gota lott to learn befor you beet me, try again kid, eh eh eh eh!





KTallguy
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"Re(6):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 04:05post reply

I don't think the screenshot looks so horrible... but I really would like to hear how it plays.

Honestly, if the game plays well, the style or whatever won't really matter.

If Dimps is making it I'll be... sad.

Sure, part of me wishes it was in 2D, but it could be a million times worse.





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"Re(6):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 04:12:post reply

I don't know, I don't like how the first characters they're revealing are old characters that have been around since SF2. This feels like a step back after they wiped most of the old cast and introduced all those new characters in SF3.

I don't really mind the graphics as long as they are able to have a solid fighting game engine that isn't SFEX though.

What were all those whacky anime games that were loved here anyway? I must have been missing something.





[this message was edited by Zepy on Fri 7 Dec 04:12]

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"Re(7):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 04:14:post reply

quote:
I don't know, I don't like how the first characters they're revealing are old characters that have been around since SF2. This feels like a step back after they wiped most of the old cast and introduced all those new characters in SF3.



I agree!
and I also don't see the point of doing a game in 3D when you're keeping it to a 2D plane. lame.

and nobody has spoken of Ryu's giant erection yet?

[edit] - also, I started that Dimps rumor a while back, and Capcom saying development is being handled by Capcom Japan does not mean Dimps isn't developing it, just to say. They barely have anyone left on staff who knows how to make a fighter.





[this message was edited by exodus on Fri 7 Dec 04:16]

KTallguy
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"Re(8):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 04:18post reply

quote:

I agree!
and I also don't see the point of doing a game in 3D when you're keeping it to a 2D plane. lame.

and nobody has spoken of Ryu's giant erection yet?

[edit] - also, I started that Dimps rumor a while back, and Capcom saying development is being handled by Capcom Japan does not mean Dimps isn't developing it, just to say. They barely have anyone left on staff who knows how to make a fighter.



I think they're going to exploit the 3d plane somehow... either that or it's just there for aesthetics... too much is up in the air...

BTW, where did the original SF people end up ?

exodus, I totally understand your pessimism, but you never know, it ... might be good.





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"Re(9):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 04:28post reply

quote:
BTW, where did the original SF people end up ?

Dimps, Craft&Meister, Yuki, Tôkyô's sewers...

And I just noticed they didn't mention Alex. Go, SF3's real main character !





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"Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Fri 7 Dec 04:36post reply

If Alex and Ibuki are in the game, I'll be very very happy.

I really just want to see gameplay footage... really badly.





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EddyT
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"Re(2):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 06:59post reply

quote:
If Alex and Ibuki are in the game, I'll be very very happy.

I really just want to see gameplay footage... really badly.



That'd be nice, but something tells me that you will see more SF2 characters than SF3 characters. And Ibuki will probably not return. I hope she does come back, but it's probably not likely because she wasn't as popular as Cammy or Sakura.





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"Re(2):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 07:30post reply

quote:
If Alex and Ibuki are in the game, I'll be very very happy.


Alex SHOULD be in SFIV. More than Chun Li, Ken or Dalhshim. He's the previous SF main character!

Anyway, I like the screenshot. I'm not crazy about it, but I think it's solid, and looks good. I would have preferred SFIV in 2D, but if this is well done, I won't mind.





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"Re(3):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 07:39post reply

I'm still feeling kind of optimistic, myself. More shots and the info from the EGM feature could change that pretty quickly, though. I don't mind the look at all, but I do worry that the SF3 cast will get shafted.





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"Re(4):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 08:02post reply

I'm still really afraid about this just being a fanboy clusterfuck of a game. I don't want all returning characters from SFII. If I want to play as those characters I can play OLDER GAMES. Christ. The screenshot actually wasn't terrible, but I definitely didn't get a feeling that it was Street Fighter. Also Ryu's boner made me LOL.





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"Re(5):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 08:44post reply

http://www.destructoid.com/rumor-new-info-and-pictures-from-street-fighter-iv-leaked-58045.phtml

I...I'm not even going to bother anymore.





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"Re(6):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 08:58post reply

quote:
http://www.destructoid.com/rumor-new-info-and-pictures-from-street-fighter-iv-leaked-58045.phtml

I...I'm not even going to bother anymore.



Anyone still feeling optimistic?

NEW SIG! FUCK.





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Grave
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"Re(7):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 09:14post reply

SIGH.

Don't mind me. I'll be in the other room, sobbing quietly and playing KOF XI.





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"Re(7):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 09:15post reply

uh...wow. So, if this is true and IV is after II but before III then it's not REALLY IV. Blah. Also, those two new images are pretty odd... broken ankle hadouken ftw!





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"Re(6):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 09:21post reply

quote:
I...I'm not even going to bother anymore.



So hideous and disappointing that it's even funny.

It's like when you first realize that there is no santaclaus, but only your parents are getting fat and bready.





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"Re(6):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 09:21:post reply

quote:
http://www.destructoid.com/rumor-new-info-and-pictures-from-street-fighter-iv-leaked-58045.phtml

I...I'm not even going to bother anymore.



Wow, I was optimistic...right up until now.

If those rumors are true, screw this game. Auto combos are pathetic.





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[this message was edited by KTallguy on Fri 7 Dec 09:22]

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"Re(7):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 09:43post reply

Citizens demand Skullomania!





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"let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 09:57post reply

Now, now, guys, this is a bit too much, even for a bunch of haters such as we Cafers are. Let’s not jump into SO FRIGGIN’ MANY conclusions yet.

While I do think the character modeling looks hideous at best, and I admit after hearing about the returning characters I do share some of Iggy’s concerns as well, honestly I think Capcom has taken the only way they could. Let’s face it, speaking about fighting games, nowadays there is no way you can make a really impressive thing in good ol’ 2D style anymore, at least not anything that would feel so fresh and ground breaking as the original SFII felt back when it hit the arcades for the first time. Not to mention it would sure as hell ruin the gorgeous legacy of SF III. A 2D sequel would not live up to the enormous expectations.

2D fighters reached their top long ago, and going that way again would only result in another lame ŕ la ArcSysWork attempt that would only be OK for those die hard fans who are still playing KOF 95 with zealot devotion. But SF deserves better than that.

I am worried by many things on those screenshots, but overall I think Capcom has made the correct, or at least the most logical decision: trying to innovate and offering something visually different to other fighting games (3D or 2D) on the market. It always thought that, should there ever be a sequel to SF, a 2’5D cell shaded engine would be pretty much the only fitting approach. So it’s kind of a relief that they are at least trying to pull that kind of thing together… even if the execution does not seem too promising so far.

But I think a SF IV was not necessary to begin with, so what do I know.



tl, dr: it’s not 1996 anymore, gentlemen. The world moved on.






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"Re(7):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Fri 7 Dec 10:01post reply

quote:
http://www.destructoid.com/rumor-new-info-and-pictures-from-street-fighter-iv-leaked-58045.phtml

I...I'm not even going to bother anymore.


Wow, I was optimistic...right up until now.

If those rumors are true, screw this game. Auto combos are pathetic.



Agreed.

At this point, I think it's safe to say that Samurai Spirits SEN will probably do a better job of being a "second attempt at a 2D series in 3D", even if it doesn't do things like add pets back in. SF4 is just probably going to be another victim of the Capcom USA brand curse, and just prove those 2channers who said "Remember Sawada!" right...





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"Re(1):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 10:07:post reply

No, I agree with you for the most part, Maese Spt. However, the action shots are a mess, and it's hard to deny. I'm trying to relax and wait for video and text info from a reliable source, but it's hard.

If this game really does take place between SF2 and 3, I'll be pissed. I do not want SF Beta. Nor do I want them to pretend the SF3 cast doesn't exist just because the majority of gamers are too thick to realize there was a SF3, let alone three of them. And I certainly don't want auto combos anywhere near this.

I realize it's stupid to put too much stock in this info right now, but I really want this to be good. I am scared. :(





[this message was edited by Grave on Fri 7 Dec 10:08]

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"Re(2):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 10:15post reply

Two more new images, not sure if you guys seen this. Personally, I think the Ken doing the spin kick looks hella ugly...


2 New Images to SF4






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"Re(1):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 10:33post reply

quote:
Let’s face it, speaking about fighting games, nowadays there is no way you can make a really impressive thing in good ol’ 2D style anymore, at least not anything that would feel so fresh and ground breaking as the original SFII felt back when it hit the arcades for the first time.


Do you really think that it's impossible to do anything new in 2-d? I'm sure if a talented developer thought hard enough, they could do something pretty cool and innovative with the 2-d fighting game format.

I'm pretty sure the only reason they are doing it in 3d is because that will sell better according to their research.

I still hope it plays well, its just that without good graphics, the game has lost half its appeal to me.





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"Re(1):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 10:43post reply

Maese Spt

As usual, I disagree with you on a number of points, but I definitely think what you're saying has merit, especially in terms of an international market. If you think "Capcom of Japan has thrown away SF" and you have a US-headed project, perhaps primarily aimed at a US market, then this is not only a logical decision, it's a smart one.

However, I don't think that we've reached any kind of limit on 2D, and I'm disappointed that most companies are unwilling to produce more high-resolution 2D work.

While a low-detail cell-painted Arc Sys approach wouldn't be appropriate (unless it was SFZ4), I would love to see a 2D fighter that uses the same graphics system that VanillaWare used in Odin Sphere and Grim Grimoire. Wasn't something similar used in Rumble Fish?

Of course, this is an ideal, and I don't mean it as a counterpoint to your statement about Capcom doing the best thing they could. To me, though...if they could create a high-resolution 2D game that looked like an illustration in motion (which essentially HAS been done before), it would stick to their roots...be an obvious evolution AND turn heads.





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"Re(2):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 10:54post reply

It'd certainly be nice, but quite idealistic considering the times. If anyone produces a head-turning 2D game anytime soon, I suspect it'll be a small Japanese developer and will involve lots of little girls. Maybe nothing but little girls. I'd like to be wrong.

It would amuse and please me greatly if KOF XII turned out to be that game. I would definitely have liked SF4 to be that too, but there's a lot of positive things that can come from this, and I do think 3D presentation with 2D gameplay is an approach that guarantees more mainstream appeal, but trying too hard to assure mainstream appeal is also a good way to dumb things down in general.

In summary: it's too early to say anything smart about this with the limited information available so I am babbling a lot!





Maese Spt
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"Re(2):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 11:55post reply

quote:
Maese Spt

As usual, I disagree with you on a number of points


;_;

I’ll tell you a secret: actually, I wrote my comment BEFORE seeing the newer 2 screenshots. I really thought that that posing Ryu, ugly as he was, had some kind of potential. Now, after seeing the horrid Hurricane Kick Ken, I feel like swallowing up half of my remarks… probably you guys are right and this is gonna suck pretty badly after all.

I still think 2D fighters are dead, tough. In fact, the last nail on the coffin was SFIII. But man, what a wonderful nail! You can not possibly do anything better than that in “full 2D”, so there is no point in trying.

Anyway, don’t get me wrong. I’m only talking about fighting games. In other genres, much to my relief 2D are far from dead, as Odin Sphere and that upcoming Wii ghostly samurai story demonstrate. But I don’t think such kind of graphics and animation would look any good on a fighter, really. Thus, I think the cel shading was a good idea, even if Capcom does not seem to know how to implement it in an actually flashy and stunning way.

Oh, and maybe it’s just that I’m a cel shading whore, but I think the graphics are pretty good so far. It’s the character modeling what looks horrible.






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"Someone explain something to me (2d v 3d)" , posted Fri 7 Dec 12:45post reply

It might be that it's late right now and I just came back from a plane trip--or maybe I just don't get it.

But what is a *real* 2D fighter and a *real* 3d fighter? Think about this for a second...what really sets Street Fighter apart from Tekken? Don't tell me it's just about the graphics. I mean, when you play tekken, you really are playing on a 2D field with the exception of being able to briefly move side by side to "change planes", but really all you are doing is shifting to another 2D plane. But primarily, gameplay is mostly constrained in a X,Y plane with an occasionally shifting Z. How is this really so different from Street Fighter, which is based on an X,Y field (no Z)? In my mind at least, true 3D fighting would be something like Power Stone, with full fluid movement an X,Y,Z environment.

I say this because all this SF4 news is saying that the game will have 3D graphics, but 2D gameplay. But if history tells us anything, maybe real "3D" fighting has never really existed?





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"Re(3):Someone explain something to me (2d v 3" , posted Fri 7 Dec 13:07:post reply

quote:
It might be that it's late right now and I just came back from a plane trip--or maybe I just don't get it.



You are really setting your point with bad examples, tekken is a bad example as it truly was a 2d game with 3d graphics at the beggining; but later "evolved" to include a "very little" of 3d. And most other 3d fighters have been through very similar "evolution"

This is going to be a very big post, I know it...

More than the usage of 3d or 2d into gameplay; ancient 2d and 3d have set very different roots, 2d game went for a solid details that have defined their genres... and each game have built a lot from those roots.

One of the main points of the 2d vs 3d is that many of their fundamental differences will surely look lame if applied to the other genre; for example in early 3d games, we not only got that many characters where cloned into other entries, but even character that aren't cloned into each other share many moves and similarities. On old era 2d the most clones that I remember are the usual always original shoto palette head swaps from capcom. Also, many 3d games, both new and old; always boasted about "indepth" and "complexety" where as most 2d games went for the "heavily rooted in the basics" type of characters. Also, previously and perhaps even know, 2d character had more "persona" in their voice acting and animations; they weren't stuck with tons of universal moves and almost unrecognizable facial expressions....

...I myself refused to touch 3d games for years, because the characters of fatal fury projected a lot more of "persona" than tekken or virtual fighter character, more voices, more uniques animations for characters (albeit less moves), taunts and just a good old anime old school look vs a 7 blocks render pretending to be a human.

While I have been saying that very same statement that 2d isn't really that far of from 3d, there are many small tidbits and differences that players do notice, do care about and do scream about when each game "goes through the barrier" from 2d to 3d.





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[this message was edited by Toxico on Fri 7 Dec 13:11]

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"2D vs. 3D fighters" , posted Fri 7 Dec 13:35:post reply

quote:
But if history tells us anything, maybe real "3D" fighting has never really existed?

You're right about Tekken, Ranger, which is why it never really held up for me after 3.

But true 3D has existed for years in the truly trendsetting 3D fighters. First with Tobal 2 (no overseas release I gather, which is a damn shame), then with Soul Calibur. The way to tell is simple: up and down move your character further from or closer to the screen, and a trigger button is required to jump. These are two of the very finest 3D fighters ever made, and surely the most innovative (toss in Virtua too, though it's too plodding for my tastes), and it's because they truly made 3D fighting a reality with X-Y-Z available at all times rather than just layering a bunch of 2D fights on top of each other with a "sidestep" button.





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 7 Dec 13:41]

nobinobita
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"Re(3):Someone explain something to me (2d v 3" , posted Fri 7 Dec 13:56post reply

quote:
But if history tells us anything, maybe real "3D" fighting has never really existed?



The graphics are the key difference because graphics = controls = gameplay.

In every videogame, the moment you press a button it is registered by the engine. When people say a game has good or bad controls, what they are really talking about is how responsive or appropriate the animation is. Street Fighter has excellent controls cos the moves come out at a comfortable pace, while something like say... I dunno Shaq-Fu (and alot of current gen games) are over animated and take too long for the animations to initiate and finish.

This is the major difference that effects the gameplay between 2-d and 3-d games.

2-d games are typically hand drawn with clear key frames (that is in very general terms the exact beginning, peak and end of an action). Through the magic of traditional animation the artist can control every single frame of every action. They typically already know ahead of time exactly how long and how many frames each action is allowed to be.

This stands in sharp contrast to 3d fighters, which are mostly motion captured and have much less distinct key frames. With 3-d there's simultaneously more and less control. There's more control in that all data is infinitely editable and can be sped up or slowed down without a hitch. But there's less control in that people typically just let the computer make the decisions (hence Ryu gets a boner cos the engine folds his gi in a weird way).

The result of this is that 2d fighters all have a clear "pop" to the attacks (except for Shaq-fu which was rotoscoped anyway), while 3-d fighters seem much more loose (at least to me).

There's just more that you can get away with in 2-d, like quick 2 frame attacks, or meaty punches that stick out for longer than expected. Can you imagine Sagat's crouching Fierce in 3-d? It would just feel weird.

In 3-d although its handy that the computer can inbetween all the frames for you, this can also slow down gameplay (though soul Calibur does a good job of seperating upper and lower body movements and animation so controls are more responsive).

In a 2-d fighter, you have a very real very final X Y plane where you can learn to gauge distance and timing down to the pixel. This is trickier in a 3-d game where the camera is constantly changing angles to keep up with the action.

In a 2-d fighter, your moves typically come out when you input them. Not so for 3-d games where you dial a combo and wait for it to finish.

In a 2-d fighter, you typically have to connect to continue doing a combo. Not so in 3-d fighters, where your combos come out even if you're just hitting air. This results in fights that look like 2 conga line dancers shadow boxing until one accidentally hits the other one.

I think this is actually the secret to why 3d fighters are so successful. You can mash buttons and appear to know what you're doing. This is why my best friend can play Soul Calibur with his parents, but not Street Fighter. His parents think they're awesome at Soul Calibur, but they KNOW when their son lets them win in Street Fighter, because the visual distinction in skill level is so apparent.

Anyway, I'm sure you get my point. 2d and 3d games don't feel the same. They just dont have the same controls. Alot of the differences I mentioned have more to do with conventional approaches to 3d controls, vs actual limitations of the format, but i doubt any company is going to stray from those conventions any time soon.





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"ode to 3D" , posted Fri 7 Dec 14:13:post reply

quote:
they KNOW when their son lets them win in Street Fighter, because the visual distinction in skill level is so apparent.
Very good points, though I would give good 3D games more credit. The part about combos coming out even if you miss is great, but nonetheless the difference in skill level is still very apparent in 3D fighters, you just happen to be making more motions if suck than if you do in 2D, but a lack of graceful connection and flow in style is still absolutely clear.

You might get nailed a couple of times in Soul Calibur by some scrub just because they're unpredictable for lack of knowledge and you'll still get hit by attacks generated from unpredictable mashing that might not input properly in 2D, but that can be adapted to very quickly or just guard impacted. The difference in finesse still matters and I wouldn't dismiss a GOOD 3D fighter as a combo machine.

One advantage that might be brought up about the more laborious animation of 3D fighters is that there are new mental games that can be played with visual connection that are not possible in 2D. Whereas 2D fighters animate very quickly as you mention and thus a lot of the mind games and traps come from expecting whether people will trip/cross-up/grab when you've been knocked down and such, Soul Calibur's 3D animation enables you to literally have two moves that start out the exact same way but which end high or low, resulting in the mix-up and mind games and traps coming both from expectations and from very very fast visual reactions.

I'm a Nightmare/Siegfried guy, for instance, and there's plenty of those mid-animation fake-outs that exist in addition to the old 2D style trip-or-mid? traps you can do based on expectations alone (traps where you alternate between an Axel Kick trip and a Rook Splitter mid, both knockdowns). This aspect can keep certain well-made 3D fighters fresher than 2D sometimes. I've played thousands of hours of SFZero3 and Soul Calibur, my two fave fighting games, so I think there's strong merit in each very different animation and gameplay style.





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 7 Dec 14:19]

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"Re(4):Someone explain something to me (2d v 3" , posted Fri 7 Dec 14:39:post reply

quote:
But if history tells us anything, maybe real "3D" fighting has never really existed?


The graphics are the key difference because graphics = controls = gameplay.

In every videogame, the moment you press a button it is registered by the engine. When people say a game has good or bad controls, what they are really talking about is how responsive or appropriate the animation is. Street Fighter has excellent controls cos the moves come out at a comfortable pace, while something like say... I dunno Shaq-Fu (and alot of current gen games) are over animated and take too long for the animations to initiate and finish.

This is the major difference that effects the gameplay between 2-d and 3-d games.

2-d games are typically hand drawn with clear key frames (that is in very general terms the exact beginning, peak and end of an action). Through the magic of traditional animation the artist can control every single frame of every action. They typically already know ahead of time exactly how long and how many frames each action is allowed to be.

This stands in sharp contrast to 3d fighters, which are mostly motion captured and have much less distinct key frames. With 3-d there's simultaneously more and less control. There's more control in that all data is infinitely editable and can be sped up or slowed down without a hitch. But there's less control in that people typically just let the computer make the decisions (hence Ryu gets a boner cos the engine folds his gi in a weird way).

The result of this is that 2d fighters all have a clear "pop" to the attacks (except for Shaq-fu which was rotoscoped anyway), while 3-d fighters seem much more loose (at least to me).

There's just more that you can get away with in 2-d, like quick 2 frame attacks, or meaty punches that stick out for longer than expected. Can you imagine Sagat's crouching Fierce in 3-d? It would just feel weird.

In 3-d although its handy that the computer can inbetween all the frames for you, this can also slow down gameplay (though soul Calibur does a good job of seperating upper and lower body movements and animation so controls are more responsive).

In a 2-d fighter, you have a very real very final X Y plane where you can learn to gauge distance and timing down to the pixel. This is trickier in a 3-d game where the camera is constantly changing angles to keep up with the action.

In a 2-d fighter, your moves typically come out when you input them. Not so for 3-d games where you dial a combo and wait for it to finish.

In a 2-d fighter, you typically have to connect to continue doing a combo. Not so in 3-d fighters, where your combos come out even if you're just hitting air. This results in fights that look like 2 conga line dancers shadow boxing until one accidentally hits the other one.

I think this is actually the secret to why 3d fighters are so successful. You can mash buttons and appear to know what you're doing. This is why my best friend can play Soul Calibur with his parents, but not Street Fighter. His parents think they're awesome at Soul Calibur, but they KNOW when their son lets them win in Street Fighter, because the visual distinction in skill level is so apparent.

Anyway, I'm sure you get my point. 2d and 3d games don't feel the same. They just dont have the same controls. Alot of the differences I mentioned have more to do with conventional approaches to 3d controls, vs actual limitations of the format, but i doubt any company is going to stray from those conventions any time soon.

I agree with you at some points BUT i do believe there will be a 3D game out there that will feel 2D some day. some things you said are doable in 3D.
on sf4 though, cant complain about the gameplay for now but man the art direction sucks. It's SF EX4.

a good 2d but 3d graphics ive played is Castlvania chronicles on PSP. only problem i have with it is the hit box. CANT freakin distinguish the damn hitbox. but overall it looks and plays great.





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[this message was edited by D`Cloud on Fri 7 Dec 14:42]

EddyT
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"Re(2):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 14:45post reply

quote:
Maese Spt

As usual, I disagree with you on a number of points, but I definitely think what you're saying has merit, especially in terms of an international market. If you think "Capcom of Japan has thrown away SF" and you have a US-headed project, perhaps primarily aimed at a US market, then this is not only a logical decision, it's a smart one.

However, I don't think that we've reached any kind of limit on 2D, and I'm disappointed that most companies are unwilling to produce more high-resolution 2D work.

While a low-detail cell-painted Arc Sys approach wouldn't be appropriate (unless it was SFZ4), I would love to see a 2D fighter that uses the same graphics system that VanillaWare used in Odin Sphere and Grim Grimoire. Wasn't something similar used in Rumble Fish?

Of course, this is an ideal, and I don't mean it as a counterpoint to your statement about Capcom doing the best thing they could. To me, though...if they could create a high-resolution 2D game that looked like an illustration in motion (which essentially HAS been done before), it would stick to their roots...be an obvious evolution AND turn heads.



I second that emotion. Hi-Def gives 2D new life because it can show details and vibrancy that no other sprites could ever show. I never understood the mentality of companies thinking games HAVE to be in 3D to become popular with the crowd.

Then again, I do understand companies going the way of 3D because it's easier to manipulate 3D models, rather than draw a character in multiple animations.

Maybe 2D animation itself will be a lost art in about 10-20 years... who knows?





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"Re(3):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 15:45post reply

Visually I think 2-D hasn't reached its limit. My idea would have been to keep it 2d but farm out the work to an animation studio. A lot now directly scan and animate on comupters like production IG. The process of animation is cheaper, faster and more streamlined now a days. And it would be easier to translate from studio to game. The studio could just animate the detailed character models. Mulitiple gradients and shades wouldn't be a problem either since it would be their job. Then a guy from Capcom would check the animation and model.

If Capcom doesn't have the skill and ppl to do it there are places out there that do. Maybe its just about how much money they want to spend.





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"go for broke" , posted Fri 7 Dec 15:45post reply

Karma for letting CFAS get canned? Possibly.

I'll wait for shots of man-Chun and Afro Dhalsim before writing this off.





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"Re(2):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 18:39post reply

quote:
The game takes place after Super Street Fighter II Turbo and before SFIII. The good news is that the character roster will be made of many old-school brawlers and some entirely new ones. There are two new girls on the list. We will probably not see any SFIII characters.


And this:

quote:
If this game really does take place between SF2 and 3, I'll be pissed. I do not want SF Beta. Nor do I want them to pretend the SF3 cast doesn't exist just because the majority of gamers are too thick to realize there was a SF3, let alone three of them.


I now don-t care about the graphics. I care about having "Street Fighter Beta" instead of SFIV.

Damn, why do they have to ruin even the most optimistic people like me? ;_;





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"Re(1):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 18:45post reply

quote:
It always thought that, should there ever be a sequel to SF, a 2’5D cell shaded engine would be pretty much the only fitting approach.

But I think a SF IV was not necessary to begin with, so what do I know.

I agree with these two sentences.
Really, I don't think these two shots are THAT ugly. Especially if you think (hope?) you won't see the characters that way except during the replays. From a far away angle, it might look good.

My problem with this game lies far, faaar above.
And reading that "between SF2 and SF3" part, I think they just should have called the game "SF2 3D", ditch the HD remake, and they would have reached exactly the market they aimed for.
I don't want old characters reutrning, I don't want new characters, I don't want Capcom USA touching this series anymore.

OH ! On a totally different topic : please, tell me Capcom USA doesn't have the Vampire brand ?





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"Re(2):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 19:13post reply

quote:

OH ! On a totally different topic : please, tell me Capcom USA doesn't have the Vampire brand ?



I believe Street Fighter was the only "property" transferred to Capcom USA.

The rest (Vampire, Cyberbots, Rival Schools, etc.) are just... dormant-sleeping-dead.





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"Re(2):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 19:36post reply

quote:

OH ! On a totally different topic : please, tell me Capcom USA doesn't have the Vampire brand ?



Thankfully, this did not happen.
The IP rights of Vampire were instead sold to Udon comics three months ago.





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chazumaru
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"Re(3):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 19:39post reply

I was only kidding, Iggy-tan, don't jump!





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Just a Person
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"Re(2):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 20:28post reply

quote:
If this game really does take place between SF2 and 3, I'll be pissed. I do not want SF Beta. Nor do I want them to pretend the SF3 cast doesn't exist just because the majority of gamers are too thick to realize there was a SF3, let alone three of them.



I agree. And it would be weird to assume that the players don't care about SFIII; I always thought that SFIII 3rd. Strike was very popular, specially in these tournaments.

Then again, let's remember: so far, this info is JUST A RUMOUR. There are still chances that SFIV happens AFTER SFIII. And even if it happens between SSFIIX and SFIII, that doesn't prevent some of the SFIII characters (like, say, Dudley, Hugo, Sean, maybe Ibuki or Urien) from appearing.

BTW, what are the chances that grown-up Sakura appears in it??





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"Re(4):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Fri 7 Dec 20:39post reply

quote:
I was only kidding, Iggy-tan, don't jump!


You owe me a tea cup.





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"Re(9):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Sat 8 Dec 00:48post reply

quote:



BTW, where did the original SF people end up ?





Wanna know what happened to the SF 3 3 programming Team ??
Check this !





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"Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Sat 8 Dec 01:00post reply

I'm actually glad SF3 guys aren't making it in even if this is a rehash.

I just could never get over the bizarre characters from gil in his speedo to Necro running around with a miniature dwarf girl. It felt less like a fighting tourny or a story about martial arts and more like Darkstalkers.





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"Re(2):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Sat 8 Dec 01:46post reply

quote:
It felt less like a fighting tourny or a story about martial arts and more like Darkstalkers.



You say that like it's a bad thing





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"Re(2):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Sat 8 Dec 02:30post reply

quote:
I just could never get over the bizarre characters from gil in his speedo to Necro running around with a miniature dwarf girl. It felt less like a fighting tourny or a story about martial arts and more like Darkstalkers.

SF2 spoiler :


Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
there was a kabuki dancer-sumotori fighting a stretching fire-spitting yogi who hung the skulls of his enemies around his neck to preach non-violence.

End of Spoiler







HAYATO
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"Re(3):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Sat 8 Dec 02:50post reply

Well, it seems that SF parodies are the latest trend in Capcom : first SFII HD and now this...

I always thought that this project was unnecessary and truly handicapped since the very beginning of its conception but, after seeing those screenshots, I sincerelly hope this project becomes a botched aortion a la CFAS. It sure deserves it even more than the latter one...





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"Re(1):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 02:53post reply

quote:
Soul Calibur's 3D animation enables you to literally have two moves that start out the exact same way but which end high or low, resulting in the mix-up and mind games and traps coming both from expectations and from very very fast visual reactions.


Hmmmm I think i'll play Soul Calibur more seriously from now on cos those mixups sound awesome. I like 3d fighters actually (Soul Calibur and Tobal 2 being my favorites), I was just trying to stress that they tend to feel very different than 2d fighters, a point that you've supported even better than I have with your deeper knowledge of 3d fighter mechanics.

quote:
a good 2d but 3d graphics ive played is Castlvania chronicles on PSP. only problem i have with it is the hit box. CANT freakin distinguish the damn hitbox. but overall it looks and plays great.


That's exactly what I mean! 3d games feel too loose for me to fully get into. I also have no clue how Smash Bros works, because I never know when Im in range or actually have priority or not while striking. New Super Mario Bros had some good controls though... but still not as pixel sharp as any regular 16bit or 8bit mario.

quote:
Maybe 2D animation itself will be a lost art in about 10-20 years... who knows?


As long as Japan is around, 2d animation will be around. Also, I'm hoping that eventually 2d visuals will have a strong comeback in the US(at least in niche form) because the novelty of 3d realism will wear off. I think this can already be seen on a small scale looking at those Esurance commercials with the pink haired girl. If those were 3d cg, I doubt theyd be as eye catching and stylish popular as they are. Also, that movie Enchanted has some 2d sequences that mark Disney's return to traditional feature animation.
quote:

Visually I think 2-D hasn't reached its limit. My idea would have been to keep it 2d but farm out the work to an animation studio.


My God that's a fantastic idea. Can you imagine a fighter done in ultra hi res with animation by Takeshi Koike? Or Robert Valley? Norio Matsumoto? Or Hiroyuki Okiura? Or Ryo Chimo? Or just any of these guys in general:

http://catsuka.com/focuson_anim.php

The result would be a razor sharp, beautiful looking game the likes of which has never been done before. I think it would turn heads, even if you're not particularly into 2d fighters.





nobinobita
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"Re(3):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Sat 8 Dec 03:18post reply

SF3 also had tons of characters that fit more traditional and real world archtypes like Alex the traditional/US army wrestler, Hugo the Pro Wrestler, Sean who used some MMA moves, Makoto (my favorite) who takes her moves straight from the legendary God Hand Mas Oyama, Elena the Capoeira fighter (I know Capoeira is Brazilian, but its descended from African dancing and fighting traditions), Dudley the first atypical black boxer in videogames, Oro the kungfu hermit, Yun and Yang the Hong Kong kungfu/wang chung hoodlums, Makoto the ninja, Even Gill and Urien fit the world fighter idea with their immodest greek wrestling garb.

This has been said many times before, but I'll say it again. I like the SF3 cast because they really were a new generation of fighters with the same spirit as SF2 (that is a varied cast of "world warriors").

They also had a unique Capcom design sense that's more about reflecting the character than making them look as cool as possible.





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"Re(4):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Sat 8 Dec 04:16post reply

quote:
SF3 also had tons of characters that fit more traditional and real world archtypes like Alex the traditional/US army wrestler, Hugo the Pro Wrestler, Sean who used some MMA moves, Makoto (my favorite) who takes her moves straight from the legendary God Hand Mas Oyama, Elena the Capoeira fighter (I know Capoeira is Brazilian, but its descended from African dancing and fighting traditions), Dudley the first atypical black boxer in videogames, Oro the kungfu hermit, Yun and Yang the Hong Kong kungfu/wang chung hoodlums, Makoto the ninja, Even Gill and Urien fit the world fighter idea with their immodest greek wrestling garb.

This has been said many times before, but I'll say it again. I like the SF3 cast because they really were a new generation of fighters with the same spirit as SF2 (that is a varied cast of "world warriors").

They also had a unique Capcom design sense that's more about reflecting the character than making them look as cool as possible.



Phew i say it looks godawful. why didn't they go more Okami animation style. Why do you see Ryu's fucking dick in a videogame? This has got to be an american production. They are trying a new dead or alive angle except its male.

Huge fuck up.





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"Re(2):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 06:05post reply

quote:

The result would be a razor sharp, beautiful looking game the likes of which has never been done before. I think it would turn heads, even if you're not particularly into 2d fighters.



Or a total mess... nevermind how it actually plays.

In any case, a big part of the matter is how much money you're willing to invest into it and the strength of the game's direction. I'm reasonably sure that hiring studios like those to create sprites can't be cheap. But then, I wonder what kind of a budget a 2D fighter production these days could manage to get together anyway.





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"Re(3):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 06:47post reply

This is just the Capcom version of KOF: Maximum Impact... it'll likely be fun to play for a while but will never even be close to a tournament level fighting game... only they're trying to pass this off as a true sequel rather than a side series.





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"Re(3):let's fight like gentlemen" , posted Sat 8 Dec 06:52post reply

quote:
And it would be weird to assume that the players don't care about SFIII; I always thought that SFIII 3rd. Strike was very popular, specially in these tournaments.


Oh, it is very popular, in tournaments and among people like us. But we're not the people that move millions of copies and make games insanely profitable. The majority of casual players don't seem to know much about SF3 other than that it has a good reputation, assuming they do know of it at all. I've met quite a few who didn't.





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"Re(3):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 10:07post reply

quote:
But then, I wonder what kind of a budget a 2D fighter production these days could manage to get together anyway.



It's probably near impossible to make a game of Third Strike's caliber these days because of the high level of skill required to draw, animate and paint those sprites. The people that have those skills have probably moved up the chain to better paying jobs, leaving a vacuum in their wake.

Another problem is that even though solid 2-d graphics are more time consuming and difficult, companies don't want to spend as much money on them.

Then there's the issue of programming. Making a 3d game is just far more complex and time consuming and expensive than a 2d one from a programming perspective.

The only way I can think to get a 2d game into production would be to sell it as having a low production cost (cos the programming will be easier) and to guarantee that it will hit some good sales figure with the niche market. It's all about the bottom line. Street Fighter IV can only be in 3d because they don't have the vision (or reason) to believe that a 2d game can make as much money.

Someone just needs to provide them with a good (profitable) reason to make another 2d fighter.





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"Re(6):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Sat 8 Dec 11:09:post reply

quote:
I'm pretty sure we can all agree... SF going to 3D is truly the end of an era of 2D fighters.

In a way, I'd say Capcom vs SNK 2 was already the marking of the end to 2D fighters (the DC package strongly hinted that it'll be Capcom's last 2D fighter), but yeah, 2D fighters with 3D graphics have already become a norm.

Like this game that I liked but really flopped
And this recent game in beta testing

But SNKPlaymore will probably still continue to release 2D games. Arcana Heart and doujins will still be alive as well.





[this message was edited by Professor on Sat 8 Dec 11:15]

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"Re(4):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 11:12:post reply

yeah its kinda true. recently I've been playing alot of doujin fighters and just found out how great they are and that it seems the true extension of original 2d fighters lies there. look at melty blood or Akatsuki Blitzkampf for example. both started out as doujin and are now on arcades.

back to SFIV, I still think they can make a very close feel to 2d gameplay even with 3d graphics. I've been playing the new castlevania dracula X remake on the psp and the controls are the very tight and close to the 2d root because of how the camera is placed very far for a 3d game and the result is a flat playing field.

What I hope to see is that as I read some where in the internet( I cant remember what forum/website/blog it read it from) that these screenshots are taken from a replay or debugging tool and that the gameplay view is take from a far out camera similiar to castlevania dracula X





[this message was edited by badoor on Sat 8 Dec 11:31]

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"Re(7):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Sat 8 Dec 12:20post reply

quote:
I'm pretty sure we can all agree... SF going to 3D is truly the end of an era of 2D fighters.
In a way, I'd say Capcom vs SNK 2 was already the marking of the end to 2D fighters (the DC package strongly hinted that it'll be Capcom's last 2D fighter), but yeah, 2D fighters with 3D graphics have already become a norm.

Like this game that I liked but really flopped
And this recent game in beta testing

But SNKPlaymore will probably still continue to release 2D games. Arcana Heart and doujins will still be alive as well.



The problem with Battle Fantasia is that it's what... "not cool" or something? At least, that's what I hear from my circle.





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"Re(4):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 13:31:post reply

double post





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[this message was edited by D`Cloud on Sat 8 Dec 13:35]

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"Re(4):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 13:33post reply

quote:

It's probably near impossible to make a game of Third Strike's caliber these days because of the high level of skill required to draw, animate and paint those sprites. The people that have those skills have probably moved up the chain to better paying jobs, leaving a vacuum in their wake.


it still is IMO the only question is, is it worth it?

overall, i wont complain on the gameplay YET. basing on the screenshots, sf4's direction isn't great. its just sf ex in cell shade.

Battle fantasia: Yeah. That feels very 2d.. exactly what we were talking about before.. 2d stuff doable in 3d. maybe a bit more tweaking here and there...





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"Re(5):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 14:36post reply

Speaking of 2-D games, who here thinks SNK Playmore is starting to look at some bleak financial reality for the next KOF? Drawing new HD sprites for a new engine doesn't seem like something they could actually have the resources for...

Really, Capcom USA or Japan is in a Catch-22 here. Everyone says they want a 2-D game, but the costs/sales ratio would make that very unlikely (see KOF sales in Japan for the home market). They could reuse Sprites, but Capcom would get flamed for doing that (They don't have the leeway SNK Playmore does...Simply because the spites don't share the same visual style for SF like KOF does). So they went 3-D and are getting flamed.

So what's Capcom to do?

As for SF4, I won't right it off till I see it in action. The pictures are meh, but a lot can change between now and when the visuals are actually in.

The time line doesn't bother me either way. I'll wait till I hear the character line up before I give it a yay or a nay. If the line up has a good mix of returning and lots of new characters than the setting will mean squat. If it's SF2 3-D HD, than...it'll suck...





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"Re(6):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 16:59post reply

quote:

Really, Capcom USA or Japan is in a Catch-22 here. Everyone says they want a 2-D game, but the costs/sales ratio would make that very unlikely (see KOF sales in Japan for the home market). They could reuse Sprites, but Capcom would get flamed for doing that (They don't have the leeway SNK Playmore does...Simply because the spites don't share the same visual style for SF like KOF does). So they went 3-D and are getting flamed.

So what's Capcom to do?



Unlike SNK... Capcom has a lot of financial resources to use on a game like SFIV. With the success of Monster Hunter, Resident Evil and other major franchises, I couldn't see how money could be a problem for them.





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"Re(7):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 17:52post reply

quote:
Unlike SNK... Capcom has a lot of financial resources to use on a game like SFIV. With the success of Monster Hunter, Resident Evil and other major franchises, I couldn't see how money could be a problem for them.


Capcom has also wasted lots of money. They've had some pretty horrid development procedures, like continuing to throw money down a development wells or overestimating sales figures (and presumably budgeting to those overblown expectations.)

Even if they have money to spare, it still doesn't make sense for them to spend it on a game that the wouldn't believe would return it.

And remember that Capcom moved away from fighters because they felt their money was better spent on other genres which were generating much better sales.





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"Re(8):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 19:28:post reply

quote:

Capcom has also wasted lots of money. They've had some pretty horrid development procedures, like continuing to throw money down a development wells or overestimating sales figures (and presumably budgeting to those overblown expectations.)

Even if they have money to spare, it still doesn't make sense for them to spend it on a game that the wouldn't believe would return it.

And remember that Capcom moved away from fighters because they felt their money was better spent on other genres which were generating much better sales.



But... why not "waste money" on SF?

I see the point, but I still think it's possible that arcade fighting games can still turn profits. I mean, I see fighters like VF, Tekken and Guilty Gear get constant play in my area...





[this message was edited by EddyT on Sat 8 Dec 19:28]

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"Re(8):First Street Fighter 4 Screenshot" , posted Sat 8 Dec 19:43post reply

quote:
The problem with Battle Fantasia is that it's what... "not cool" or something? At least, that's what I hear from my circle.


Was it ? I had tremendous fun with that awesome 7-foot dwarf the 3 times I had the chance to play it...
What I heard was that the game was full of bugs and had terrible balance... ?





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"Re(9):ode to 3D" , posted Sat 8 Dec 23:35post reply

quote:
I mean, I see fighters like VF, Tekken and Guilty Gear get constant play in my area...



In my city,KoF 2002 still mauls something like 250 credits per day, every day; and has been doing so since it was released, and my city has less players than other cities.

Tekken tag mauled the same or more, before the machine broke down and it was removed.





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"Re(10):ode to 3D" , posted Sun 9 Dec 12:02post reply

The thing is Capcom has an idea of what costs it takes to make and produce a Street Fighter game, and can hold those costs up to sale data. Looking at that data is probably why Capcom has not worked on a 2D SF game for awhile.

I don't think Arcade games are unprofitable, the fact your seeing an upswing in arcade games means they are starting to come back (Even Capcom of Japan is getting back into it with a few games). However would those profits provide enough of a return for a new 2-D game? I doubt it...

(And I think SNK Playmore is learning that as we see the next KOF get more and more delayed)





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"Re(2):Re(10):ode to 3D" , posted Sun 9 Dec 18:39post reply

As much as I want to play and own the next KOF installment, it does not really bother me that it is not out. SNK Playmore can take their time to make this the "ultimate" 2-D fighter.
quote:
(And I think SNK Playmore is learning that as we see the next KOF get more and more delayed)







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nobinobita
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"Re(10):ode to 3D" , posted Mon 10 Dec 02:50post reply

quote:
In my city,KoF 2002 still mauls something like 250 credits per day, every day; and has been doing so since it was released, and my city has less players than other cities.


That's nice, but how many arcade machines are they selling? And then, how many different people are going to buy the games? You have to think about how the publisher is making money. It's probably the same small crowd coming back over and over to play, not a huge pool.

Still, I'm sure according to their research there is a consistent crowd that will always buy Street Fighter just for the name. They are sure to hit the hardcore crowd with sales, which is still a substantial amount of people world wide. It may not be in the millions, but its surely in the hundreds of thousands of sure sales.

If anything, maybe Capcom needs to be of the mind that Street Fighter can't be a mainstream hit anymore, but they can make it a small budget (2d) title and recoup the costs easily with no risk.

Which... is probably what they're doing with SFHD. Man, the future of Street Fighter is hopeless.

Which is why someone from this board needs to become a billionaire then start recklessly bankrolling games that they want to play with no regard for actual world wide profits.





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"Re(2):Re(10):ode to 3D" , posted Mon 10 Dec 04:43:post reply

quote:
start recklessly bankrolling games that they want to play with no regard for actual world wide profits.



Actually, I'm quite aware that; while the numbers on my arcades are neat, and it's more than just a small group replaying the game endlessly; even though that's "strong", it does not matter because, "it's not japan". While companies do care to some point wich effect their game has world wide, they mainly care for what's right at hand; and that's aiming to japanese audience.

Companies think that japan has the most amount of players, and each player has the most amount of money, and that each specific market has the most amount of impact, and before making their games famous in countries that they can't care less about; they have to be a big hit in their homeland, and that's only natural; you don't want a company, who's building is next door, trashing your products in your town, even if you are the biggest thing that has happended to the world right after Iggy in school girl uniform.

That's why most game have "japanese audience" strongly written all over the face, and while they add content to "drag in" people from other countries, their main focus roots are always strong, and even game play is designed to fit japanese "rhythm" tastes.





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[this message was edited by Toxico on Mon 10 Dec 04:46]

nobinobita
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"Re(3):Re(10):ode to 3D" , posted Mon 10 Dec 05:23post reply

quote:
Actually, I'm quite aware that; while the numbers on my arcades are neat, and it's more than just a small group replaying the game endlessly; even though that's "strong", it does not matter because, "it's not japan".



Sorry if I sounded condescending, my apologies :p

I don't think Japanese companies looking out for Japanese tastes is a bad thing though. I'd hate to think of a future where all games are watered down to appeal to a world wide market (which is were things are going now).

Oh also, check out this picture Akiman did a while back:

http://www.tothegame.com/res/game/5254/boxshot_us_large.jpg

I think that pic is pretty indicative of how Ryu is supposed to look in SFIV. I like that drawing alot, though I don't think that's the best version of Ryu to put in a new game.

I pray that latest the cover of EGM is not an actual Akiman drawing. If it is then he really doesn't care at all, because even his quickest laziest sketches in the past have looked better than that.





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"Re(4):Re(10):ode to 3D" , posted Mon 10 Dec 05:50post reply

quote:
Sorry if I sounded condescending, my apologies :p



I took no offense what so ever; I was just pointing out at how I know how my "market" is thought as weak, or really not thought off at all.

And, actually, I do care that the current game market is focusing in their audiences; in the good old times, companies made games without giving credit to a market at all; they didn't care what people thought; they did whatever they had in their minds, and they took out whatever they had in their chest; now they, the thing goes with number, it's like if game makers think that their own ideas wouldn't sell, but instead catching on the public idea will ensure success.





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makatiel
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"Re(4):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Mon 10 Dec 11:33post reply

quote:
SF3 also had tons of characters that fit more traditional and real world archtypes like Alex the traditional/US army wrestler, Hugo the Pro Wrestler, Sean who used some MMA moves, Makoto (my favorite) who takes her moves straight from the legendary God Hand Mas Oyama, Elena the Capoeira fighter (I know Capoeira is Brazilian, but its descended from African dancing and fighting traditions), Dudley the first atypical black boxer in videogames, Oro the kungfu hermit, Yun and Yang the Hong Kong kungfu/wang chung hoodlums, Makoto the ninja, Even Gill and Urien fit the world fighter idea with their immodest greek wrestling garb.

This has been said many times before, but I'll say it again. I like the SF3 cast because they really were a new generation of fighters with the same spirit as SF2 (that is a varied cast of "world warriors").

They also had a unique Capcom design sense that's more about reflecting the character than making them look as cool as possible.



Amen! The designs in SF3 were fucking awesome. I just don't see how a game with Blanka and Dhalsim in it can be "less weird" than SF3. I mean, serious, Blanka!

On a slightly different note, I don't understand why anyone likes Akiman. He sucks. Nishimura Kinu is his superior in every way.





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"Re(5):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Mon 10 Dec 12:16post reply

quote:

On a slightly different note, I don't understand why anyone likes Akiman. He sucks. Nishimura Kinu is his superior in every way.



I think most people like Kinu AND Akiman. I know I do. They're both good enough that there doesn't need to be an issue of "who is better".

I can see "I think Akiman is too funky" or "I don't know what Akiman is on" or "I hate Akiman's style", or "I don't GET Akiman", but I can't imagine someone looking at like...the SFII Anniversary Cover and saying "suck".

Regardless, the point is that Akiman is the SF character designer, and if it's a new SF, then by that token, it should have Akiman do the designs.

Of course, I'd take Kinu just as well...





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"Re(5):Re(10):ode to 3D" , posted Mon 10 Dec 15:58post reply

quote:
And, actually, I do care that the current game market is focusing in their audiences; in the good old times, companies made games without giving credit to a market at all; they didn't care what people thought; they did whatever they had in their minds, and they took out whatever they had in their chest; now they, the thing goes with number, it's like if game makers think that their own ideas wouldn't sell, but instead catching on the public idea will ensure success.


Which is a pretty good description of the design process behind SF4, everything being driven by fan response and market research, according to this post:
http://www.capcom.com/BBS/showpost.php?p=440928&postcount=20

Too bad Capcom of America didn't note that Snakes on a Plane became driven by such fan response as well.





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"Re(6):ode to 3D" , posted Mon 10 Dec 19:40post reply

quote:
Speaking of 2-D games, who here thinks SNK Playmore is starting to look at some bleak financial reality for the next KOF? Drawing new HD sprites for a new engine doesn't seem like something they could actually have the resources for...

Really, Capcom USA or Japan is in a Catch-22 here. Everyone says they want a 2-D game, but the costs/sales ratio would make that very unlikely (see KOF sales in Japan for the home market). They could reuse Sprites, but Capcom would get flamed for doing that (They don't have the leeway SNK Playmore does...Simply because the spites don't share the same visual style for SF like KOF does). So they went 3-D and are getting flamed.

So what's Capcom to do?

As for SF4, I won't right it off till I see it in action. The pictures are meh, but a lot can change between now and when the visuals are actually in.

The time line doesn't bother me either way. I'll wait till I hear the character line up before I give it a yay or a nay. If the line up has a good mix of returning and lots of new characters than the setting will mean squat. If it's SF2 3-D HD, than...it'll suck...

last time i heard 2d is cheaper..
anyway, sf4 is how you say...
Fan wankery? fan masturbatory material?





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"Re(4):Re(10):ode to 3D" , posted Mon 10 Dec 20:22post reply

quote:

I pray that latest the cover of EGM is not an actual Akiman drawing. If it is then he really doesn't care at all, because even his quickest laziest sketches in the past have looked better than that.



Unfortunately, that's what I have noticed from a majority of artists that I have liked in the past... most of them are video game character illustrators. It seems like later on in their careers, they try something new and start to draw differently. Although I admire their courage on the matter, at the same time they end up going away from the very things that I had loved about their artworks in the first place. The end result is usually a shade of their previous work. It's tough to see that.

Akiman is one of those artists, along with Bengus/CRMK. I thought Bengus was one of the most amazing artists I've ever seen... his anatomy and ability to express the figure was truly inspirational. I especially loved his works in Vampire Hunter and Zero 2. It got me to the point where I became serious and started to learn how to draw. I still do to this day, 12 years later.

However, when I saw his new works in Vampire Savior, it just seemed so stiff and drab compared to the Vampire Hunter illustrations. IMO, it hasn't been the same ever since then. It's a shame, but I still view his earlier works as one of the most influential sources of my life as an artist.

Tsukasa Kotobuki is also another artist that I really admired before, but his art isn't as awesome nowadays. Akiman still has some good drawings (like the Chun-Li illo with her sitting on top of a oil drum eating a BBQ pork bun), but other drawings of his aren't very appealing to me. I do have to agree that the EGM cover with Ryu does look to be a little lackluster.

One consistent artist that I still admire to this day... I love Kinu Nishimura's work. I'm glad she hasn't deviated much since her early days. She's actually gotten much better since, but her illustrations for Super SF X were impressive already.

Oh, and... I'd like to be that billionaire that will fund SFIV. I would get them to junk the 3D business and hire a big studio to do the spritework.





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"Re(6):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Mon 10 Dec 20:39post reply

quote:
I think most people like Kinu AND Akiman. I know I do. They're both good enough that there doesn't need to be an issue of "who is better".

Well IMO I never liked Aliman's art (there always an idiots to tell such kind of thing...^ ^) And finded Kinu much better...But more important in order to make the subject goes forward, I would add Edayan in the balance. He SFZ art were IO the best of the series. And as Rival school showed, his style is one of the easiest to but in 3D.






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IkariDC
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"Re(7):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Tue 11 Dec 03:45post reply

quote:
Well IMO I never liked Aliman's art (there always an idiots to tell such kind of thing...^ ^) And finded Kinu much better...But more important in order to make the subject goes forward, I would add Edayan in the balance. He SFZ art were IO the best of the series. And as Rival school showed, his style is one of the easiest to but in 3D.



Dude, you should at least double check what you write before posting, it would turn out a lot better, cos it seems you write in a hurry or something. Missing letters, and come on, Aliman! That kind of stuff is easy to correct when you re-read what you're going to post.

Akiman is the man, but that new Ryu drawing is awful.






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GekigangerV
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"EGM info" , posted Tue 11 Dec 06:19post reply

From neogaf

quote:
SF IV Info:

-Producer is Yoshinori Ono, who worked on SF Alpha, SF III, and oversaw Capcom Fighting Revolution

-Ono wants it to be the "second coming" of SF II. Wants it to feel like "homecoming" for SF II fans.

-Online play is planned with potential for microtransactions such as new characters and stages

-The look is not really similiar to the teaser trailer. A "cartoon-shaded style that manages to evoke SF II reimagined in 3d"

- runs in 60FPS

- Gameplay sticking with 2D- Ono wants to "preserve the strategic nature of SF II"

-camera doesn't budge

- Trying to get "as many SFII characters in as possible"

- Takes place after SFII Turbo and before SF III

-Controls are traditional- "in its current early state, the game feels remarkably close to Super SFII Turbo"

- Game is more aggressive- more about attacking than defending. Many of the SF III and Alpha gameplay systems have been scrapped.

- Producer says they haven't decided what platforms or even if there will be an arcade version. Version Shane played was running on a P.C

- Ono suggests Capcom could make a PS2 or DS version if "they deem the market suitable"

-Ono not enthusiastic about making it an exclusive- wants to get it out on as many platforms as possible



Not that excited about this game right now.





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"Re(1):EGM info" , posted Tue 11 Dec 06:54post reply

quote:

Not that excited about this game right now.



Why not? On top of SF2 HD we are now also getting SF2 3D!
Funny how Capcom was critisised for milking SF2 back in the day..





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"Re(8):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Tue 11 Dec 07:16post reply

quote:

Akiman is the man, but that new Ryu drawing is awful.



You mean the EGM one? I don't know that he drew that. As much as I love Akiman, when I look at it, I really can't tell. However, if he did work on it or anything regarding the game, I'm sure he'll be gushing about it on his blog any minute now.

It's really funny that he posted a photo of that model that "looks like Diana". When I went to the mall the other day and saw that ad, I said the same thing.





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"Re(9):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensho" , posted Tue 11 Dec 07:42post reply

quote:

Akiman is the man, but that new Ryu drawing is awful.


You mean the EGM one? I don't know that he drew that. As much as I love Akiman, when I look at it, I really can't tell. However, if he did work on it or anything regarding the game, I'm sure he'll be gushing about it on his blog any minute now.



No, it's just "I like Akiman and that EGM drawing sucks. Dunno who did it, he still rocks even if it's him".






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Grave
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"Re(2):EGM info" , posted Tue 11 Dec 09:26post reply

Yeah... it's getting harder and harder to get excited about this. I can't help but feel that they're targeting the people who totally remember playing SF2 on SNES in grade school and only want to play as Goolie and Rye-you.

I would say I feel betrayed but I think I would really feel betrayed if I didn't feel betrayed by a Capcom game!





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"Re(10):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Screensh" , posted Tue 11 Dec 09:50post reply

quote:

No, it's just "I like Akiman and that EGM drawing sucks. Dunno who did it, he still rocks even if it's him".



Haha I concur. I love Akiman and every artist at Capcom. I really don't think he did that cover though. I don't think he's capable of drawing that bad, cos even his sloppiest oekaki or slap-dash chun-li drawn for a fan still looks better than that hulking mass of ryu. BUT even if he did do it, he still rocks, as does every classic artist at Capcom.

I noticed no one's mentioned Ikeno yet, he deserves some love too.

I wonder if they know how influential they have been on young artists all over the world.





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"Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Sc" , posted Tue 11 Dec 10:17:post reply

More info here:
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=943709&topic=40073041


-Developed in-house
-Akiman is not involved
-Daigo IKENO is the character designer
-Y. Ono: "We still have a lot of people in Capcom R&D who worked on the original SF2, and many who joined the company because of that game"
"I don't want to brag, but if you look at Street Fighter III, we've pretty much done all that's possible with animated sprites"





[this message was edited by vava on Tue 11 Dec 10:54]

Fuchikoma
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"Street Fighter 2.5D" , posted Tue 11 Dec 11:03post reply

After the interview things look bad... it's obvious that they're just using the Street Fighter 4 title to get people to buy this thing since so many fans see SF4 as the second coming of Jesus... but if it takes place after SF2 and not SF3... it aint SF4. By that logic the Alpha series would have been SF3.

Also the fact they're ditching the more advanced fighting systems of the apha and 3 series and reverting back to original SF2 gameplay has me pretty disturbed... but then this is the director of Capcom Fighting Revolution...





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"Re(3):Re(10):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Sc" , posted Tue 11 Dec 11:54post reply

quote:

-Daigo IKENO is the character designer



I'll take it. Cheerfully, even. Although if all the characters turn out looking like they are...well, I'll just have to say "they're making him draw bad."





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"Re(1):Street Fighter 2.5D" , posted Tue 11 Dec 12:03post reply

quote:
After the interview things look bad...


What are you talking about???
Ono even mentions the importance signified by people vomiting when taking a heavy hit!





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"Re(3):Re(10):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Sc" , posted Tue 11 Dec 12:11:post reply

quote:
More info here:
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=943709&topic=40073041


-Developed in-house
-Akiman is not involved
-Daigo IKENO is the character designer
-Y. Ono: "We still have a lot of people in Capcom R&D who worked on the original SF2, and many who joined the company because of that game"


Thanks for the link! You just saved me five bucks and a trip to the book store.

Well, now that the shock and pain of 3d is wearing off... those new screens paint a better picture.

I don't hate them. In fact, if it were SFEX4 i'd like them alot. I appreciate that at the very least the muscles are mostly connecting correctly. Not very many games do that right. This is most impressive pages 70 and 71. They did a very good job with the forearm muscles curling around the bicep and attaching at the elbow. It reminds me a bit of Shadow of Rome, which had exellent character models. I think Ikeno and Ono both worked on that game as well right?

Its also nice that they seem to have dynamic facial expressions.

Also, i bet the cover and that first brushy picture of Ken was done by an EGM artist. They have some crummy in house (or outsourced i dunno) artists that sometime do covers and custom art.

PS No parrying = sucks
3-d vomit however = win

*just read the article. GAH! There are so many things wrong with what Ono has to say. He just sounds way too pandering.

Also, I love how they simultaneously describe the game as having an "uncanny living anime vibe" and having its "anime flavor surgically removed."

That's quality journalism there, befitting of the number one gaming magazine in the US!





[this message was edited by nobinobita on Tue 11 Dec 13:12]

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"Re(3):Re(10):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Sc" , posted Tue 11 Dec 15:31:post reply

quote:
More info here:
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=943709&topic=40073041



targeting a wider range of audiences. meh. ok im holding back comments for mow since ITS NOT FINISHED YET. i still dont feel good about the fanservices..

why the hell are they publicizing something that isnt remotely finished?





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[this message was edited by D`Cloud on Tue 11 Dec 15:33]

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"Re(1):Street Fighter 2.5D" , posted Tue 11 Dec 15:55post reply

quote:

Also the fact they're ditching the more advanced fighting systems of the apha and 3 series and reverting back to original SF2 gameplay has me pretty disturbed... but then this is the director of Capcom Fighting Revolution...



I'm one of those people that never got any good at SF3 because I couldn't parry to save my life. Whenever I played SF3, or Alpha, for that matter, I more or less played like it was SF2 (and I play KOF roughly the same way what with I couldn't combo to save my life, either). That probably means I suck horribly at fighting games, but I find a certain elegance in that simplicity.





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"Re(2):Street Fighter 2.5D" , posted Tue 11 Dec 19:29post reply

quote:
I'm one of those people that never got any good at SF3 because I couldn't parry to save my life. Whenever I played SF3, or Alpha, for that matter, I more or less played like it was SF2 (and I play KOF roughly the same way what with I couldn't combo to save my life, either). That probably means I suck horribly at fighting games, but I find a certain elegance in that simplicity.



Yeah, you suck. I mean, sorry, that's a pity, but fighting games (or games in general) shouldn't be always aimed at the lowest common denominator. Or aimed at nostalgic people.

The SFIII series were amazing, having only 4 of the original SSFIIT cast in their last installment, while having some of the best character designs of any 2D fighter. Original, effective, and representative.

Now, if their goal is to "include as many SFII characters as possible" that's already limiting the amount of new characters and characters returning from other SF titles as well.

And the time period: As stated above, if this is going to be before SFIII, it shouldn't be called SFIV, period.


Finally... I can't help but STILL being excited... ;_;





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"Re(3):Street Fighter 2.5D" , posted Tue 11 Dec 20:00post reply

quote:

Yeah, you suck. I mean, sorry, that's a pity, but fighting games (or games in general) shouldn't be always aimed at the lowest common denominator. Or aimed at nostalgic people.



In terms of gameplay, I think creating something that's easy to get into is a good idea for this game, though. Of course, I like a deal of complexity in my games, but the idea is to create something that is reasonably deep without being alienating. I think SF 2 fits that bill.

I can't play most fighting games with my friends. I have to say "here, I'll let you borrow it. Come back in two weeks and THEN we can play."





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"Re(4):Street Fighter 2.5D" , posted Tue 11 Dec 22:08post reply

quote:
In terms of gameplay, I think creating something that's easy to get into is a good idea for this game, though. Of course, I like a deal of complexity in my games, but the idea is to create something that is reasonably deep without being alienating. I think SF 2 fits that bill.


But Street Fighter III already managed to do that! If you just don't use parries, EX moves, or even supers, you are playing SFII. I have a friend that was really good at SFII but never touched any of the other SF games. When I played him in SFIII, and I didn't use any of the advanced tactics (parry, juggle combos, etc.), he usually beat me with Ryu. The games had the SFII engine, and then it had an added layer of depth for those who wanted to use it. Two people who never played anything but SFII and picked Ryu and Ken would feel right at home with SFIII. That's why I don't understand the removal of parries or other defensive maneuvers for those precise reasons. Of course, you can have a perfectly fine game without those, but "old players won't feel at home" is not the excuse.





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"Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):First Street Fighter 4 Sc" , posted Wed 12 Dec 00:29:post reply

quote:

-Daigo IKENO is the character designer


I'll take it. Cheerfully, even. Although if all the characters turn out looking like they are...well, I'll just have to say "they're making him draw bad."



The EGM illustration might not even be drawn by Capcom. Remember that cover art 11 years ago when SF3 was first revealed? That, uh, thing back then was clearly NOT official art. Anybody who's seen it should know what I'm talking about.

And let's get one thing straight: this is mainly CoA's project, for a GAME TO BE RELEASED IN THE US, developed by CoJ. Even if they weren't specifically asked to, CoJ is probably trying to make it "appeal to a US audience." They have used such a direction on numerous games before, and coincidentally Ono was the director of some of those games. So if the graphics look slightly amekomi I'd say that's no coincidence.





[this message was edited by Gojira on Wed 12 Dec 00:31]

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"SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Wed 12 Dec 13:54post reply

I'd cheer up if only they'd rename it. As a SF III fan I'm heavily disappointed that "Street Fighter IV" is just SF II 3D+ as opposed to something farther in the future. And for them to dump on SF Alpha and SF III's gameplay simultaneously worries me. The only positive are that it will hopefully clear up the "who won SF2 debate" (doubt it, it'll probably be left vauge) and the fact that possible online downloads could allow dream match setups (characters who "should" be in it but won't due to the timeline).

First Midway (well, okay maybe I should have seen the MKA fiasco ahead of time) now Capcom. I guess I'll just patiently wait for KOF XII to be canned and for Soul Calibur IV to have Cloud Strife, Sephiroth, and Master Chief as hidden characters.





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"Re(1):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Wed 12 Dec 15:03post reply

American video game magazines regularly hire outside artists to create cover art for their magazines. That's how we got a lot of Mortal Kombat and Metal Gear Solid artwork from popular American comic book artists. This piece of art that EGM is using for their SFIV cover illustration might be a commissioned piece.

In regards to them scrapping the 3S and Alpha stuff, I'm glad they did. I like the parry system but I want something new. I think most fans don't realize that if they got more of the same, they would quickly lose interest or not even be interested in the product all together.

Here's hoping it turns out well. The new game engine ideas sound interesting. It definitely seems geared towards aggressive play, which I like cause I'm tired of the cautious/defensive play of 3S.





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"Re(2):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Wed 12 Dec 16:32post reply

Are there any mirrors for the deleted scans on that thread? From what I gathered from them, I can't blame the guy for what he is doing, with that goal in his mind. Still, I can't agree with his reasoning for not doing it 2D, and overall it's a huge step back so in it's current form it doesn't appeal to me. Let's see how the finished game(s) turn out.

Also, isn't kind of fishy that he doesn't mention CUSA anywhere? He says it was his or his team's effort to make SFIV happen.






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"Re(3):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Wed 12 Dec 18:15post reply

quote:
Are there any mirrors for the deleted scans on that thread? From what I gathered from them, I can't blame the guy for what he is doing, with that goal in his mind. Still, I can't agree with his reasoning for not doing it 2D, and overall it's a huge step back so in it's current form it doesn't appeal to me. Let's see how the finished game(s) turn out.


Here you have all the scans:

http://www.anaitgames.com/?p=7065#more-7065


And I agree, with the goal he's pursuing, this is probably the best way to go... Sadly, I don't share his goal (bring SF back to those who remember the original SFII). I think that making too many old characters from SFII reappear will severely limit the amount of new faces possible, not to mention characters from the Alpha and III sagas.

quote:
Also, isn't kind of fishy that he doesn't mention CUSA anywhere? He says it was his or his team's effort to make SFIV happen.


Yeah, I wondered too. It seems that SFIV is being developed only because he insisted so much.





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"Re(4):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Wed 12 Dec 19:07post reply

quote:
I think that making too many old characters from SFII reappear will severely limit the amount of new faces possible, not to mention characters from the Alpha and III sagas.


I really wonder how "new" any new characters would be.

When you think about it, given how pandery the game is do they even need to make up "new" characters?

There's Haggar, Poison (not to mention the MANY other Final Fight stoogs, bosses, and playable characters from 1,2,3 and Streetwise they could tap into), 10 dolls that haven't been playable yet. Joe, Lee, Mike (if he's not offically Bison), and Retsu were never updated. What about some Slam Masters characters? They're in SF cannon techincally right? If Ingrid is now 'offically' a Street Fighter her buddies (Rook and DD?) could make the jump as well. What about Gouken? He's implied in the article and he'd be an easy enough Akuma reskinning... Go Hibiki could be a 'Shin/Evil' counterpart if my favorite character returns appealing to the crowd who want a "Dan who doesn't suck" for some reason (and on a similar note to dead mentor's being playable I always thought Chun-Li's pop would make a good hidden character maybe they could toss him in as well).... or tapping the same field that lead to Lily Kane being in KoF:MI2 Guile's Daughter or Wife, Ken's Son or Wife, Chun-Li's Students, Yun/Yan/Necro's girlfriends, Karin's butler, Gil's seceritary, and most importantly of all: Mikhail Gorbachev! (yes I know Zangeif's boss is not really Gorbachev, but do I care?!)

I guess what I'm saying it is: I'm gonna be REALLY surprised if they even bother to make a new character for the game instead of a "playable for the first time!" character... I'll be even more surprised if they make a new character they're visually appealing (Ingrid and friends didn't do it for me) and even MORE surprised if they make them visually appealing AND fun to play as AND with any sort of lasting effect. (cuz let's face it when they need to do SF5 the newbies in SF4 are gonna be the first cut so Sean and Remy can come back)

Also on a similar note: It's okay by me they want to bring back some SF2 character since they were popular and all... but they should at least do it Tekken 4 style and age them or something. I mean Tekken 4 was just as pandering with it's cast roaster as SF4 seems to be, but at least they had the tact to say Kazua was cloned and the game took place after number 3 and crap.






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"Re(4):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Wed 12 Dec 22:54:post reply

quote:

http://www.anaitgames.com/?p=7065#more-7065




Tch, air block....





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[this message was edited by Toxico on Wed 12 Dec 22:57]

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"Re(5):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Wed 12 Dec 23:31post reply

No. Forget those guys. If we don't even get SF3 characters, I certainly don't want to see Alexander the Grater. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Also, Tekken 4 sucks. And Kazuya was never cloned.

quote:
Tch, air block....



Looks like it, doesn't it? Don't worry, it's not. Even the text of the article confirms there's no air blocking. Probably a light attack of some sort.





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"Re(6):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Thu 13 Dec 01:14:post reply

quote:
Tekken 4 sucks


Tekken 4 was considered bad mainly because of bugs, inconcistences in the engine and stupid tier tidbits; line up wise, storyline wise and character design wise, it doesn't really enjoy of such ubber weak points; and that's what the previous post addressed.

After looking at the article, I strongly need the feel of "less shoto clones"





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[this message was edited by Toxico on Thu 13 Dec 01:18]

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"Re(6):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Thu 13 Dec 03:38post reply

quote:
No. Forget those guys. If we don't even get SF3 characters, I certainly don't want to see Alexander the Grater. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Also, Tekken 4 sucks. And Kazuya was never cloned.


I think you missed my point. I wasn't saying "OH! They should include..." I was saying "The game is catering so much to fanboys I bet instead of making up new, unseen/heard of characters they just start updating old exisiting ones." How Maki, Eagle, Yun, and Ingrid are "new characters" in some portable SFA3/SFZ3 ports when they've been around in other games.

Also, EVERY Tekken sucks. I just 4 as an example since just like SF it made the "next generation" jump then quickly reverted the cast to a pandery "best of" line-up. Tekken at least kept it in the future it didn't decide "you know this takes place BEFORE Kazuya was thrown in the lava, so between then and Tekken 3 is when we're setting this" (also Kazuya never cloned? Are you saying that in the "No Greedo NEVER shot first" denying a stupid storypoint way or did they retcon away his death? I don't follow Tekken and if they Rectoned away him falling in an active volcan... w t f?!)

Maybe I should have used "Mark of the Wolf" as the example? Since SNK worked some of those characters into KoF when the timelines matched up letting people have their old favorites AND the next generation rather then ignoring and overall cheapening the game set in the future.






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"Re(7):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Thu 13 Dec 04:13:post reply

quote:
(also Kazuya never cloned? Are you saying that in the "No Greedo NEVER shot first" denying a stupid storypoint way or did they retcon away his death? I don't follow Tekken and if they Rectoned away him falling in an active volcan... w t f?!)



Kazuya indeed died when thrown into the volcano, but scientifics "patched him up" and brought him back to life for 4; I thought he was cloned at first too; as being cloned makes much more sense tan being ressurected.

Also, relating KoF timeline to AoF and FF to set an example already means that you will never make a point





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[this message was edited by Toxico on Thu 13 Dec 04:24]

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"Re(8):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Thu 13 Dec 04:31post reply

quote:
Kazuya indeed died when thrown into the volcano, but scientifics "patched him up" and brought back to life for 4; I thought he was cloned as first too; as being cloned makes much more sense tan being ressurected.


Wow... I don't even start to "get" how someone can be patched up after falling in lava (does the devil gene prevent him from reducing to char or something?)

quote:
Also, relating KoF timeline to AoF and FF to set an example already means that you will never make a point



GODDAMMIT!!!! I completely forgot about AoF taking place in the 70's and everyone being "deaged" for KoF, causing KoF to techincally exist in a pocket universe outside the main AoF/FF/MotW continuity... I even pondered if Marco Roderigez ever made it onto the AoF team in a KoF game (I only know the Griffin Mask, Gato, and B.Janet were included)as I was typing that last thought so really I have no excuse to be that stupid.






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"Re(9):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Sat 15 Dec 00:05post reply

quote:
GODDAMMIT!!!! I completely forgot about AoF taking place in the 70's and everyone being "deaged" for KoF, causing KoF to techincally exist in a pocket universe outside the main AoF/FF/MotW continuity... I even pondered if Marco Roderigez ever made it onto the AoF team in a KoF game (I only know the Griffin Mask, Gato, and B.Janet were included)as I was typing that last thought so really I have no excuse to be that stupid.



While I knew they were "off" in timeline, I thought AOF had been shifted up 10-15 years so it could fit [shrug].

And while it isn't a rush, have you checked your email? I was wondering since I hadn't gotten a reply and was hoping it wasn't Hotmail being stupid again.





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"Re(10):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Sat 15 Dec 02:34:post reply

quote:
While I knew they were "off" in timeline, I thought AOF had been shifted up 10-15 years so it could fit [shrug].



It hasn't been properly stated how long is the time gap for AoF, as some games state different dates (For example, imagine that AoF 2 says 7 years, and buriki says 9 years, and dominated mind says another amount of years).

Not only AoF hand got bitten, but Fatal fury had many events screwed up ass well (by 94, Geese was supposed to be death in FF; but was discovered alive in fatal fury 3, and after that, geese demise in real bout and south town economical ruin where ignored by KoF).





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[this message was edited by Toxico on Sat 15 Dec 02:37]

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"Re(10):SF IV: Cry for the Future" , posted Sat 15 Dec 04:55post reply

quote:
I was wondering since I hadn't gotten a reply and was hoping it wasn't Hotmail being stupid again.



Off topic I know, but yes I have checked my e-mail lately.

Expect a reply late tomorrow or early Sunday.






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"First Artwork!" , posted Sat 15 Dec 23:21post reply

From Edge Magazine:
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r257/DCrider360/P1010276.jpg





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"Re(1):First Artwork!" , posted Sat 15 Dec 23:58post reply

quote:
From Edge Magazine:
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r257/DCrider360/P1010276.jpg


Is it the cover of a Ken X Ryű fanzine for the next comicket ?





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"Re(2):First Artwork!" , posted Sun 16 Dec 00:34post reply

quote:
From Edge Magazine:
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r257/DCrider360/P1010276.jpg

Is it the cover of a Ken X Ryű fanzine for the next comicket ?



So I am not the only one who felt serious Sol x Ky déjŕ vu vibes from that artwork...






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"Re(2):First Artwork!" , posted Sun 16 Dec 01:41post reply

quote:
From Edge Magazine:
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r257/DCrider360/P1010276.jpg

Is it the cover of a Ken X Ryű fanzine for the next comicket ?

That said, it's better than anything I saw of the in-game screenshots.


PS: Arngrim: way to still represent with the Wander and the Colossus pic. My favorite...I was just replaying it this week.





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"Re(3):First Artwork!" , posted Sun 16 Dec 02:15post reply

Say what you want, but I really like it. If only the models were closer to the looks of that artwork, specially on the faces...





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"Re(4):First Artwork!" , posted Sun 16 Dec 07:09post reply

Yeah, that's some really nice SF3 fan art.





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"Re(2):First Artwork!" , posted Sun 16 Dec 11:38:post reply

quote:
From Edge Magazine:
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r257/DCrider360/P1010276.jpg

Is it the cover of a Ken X Ryű fanzine for the next comicket ?



Yes... actually it is.

Will you wait in line with me to get it, Iggy? Maybe we can get it signed.

I hope this fanzine isn't yaoi. Those covers are so misleading. It's like "surprise buttsechs" to the eyes.





[this message was edited by EddyT on Sun 16 Dec 11:39]

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"Re(3):First Artwork!" , posted Thu 20 Dec 04:49post reply

I'm not trying to drudge up this whole mess again but I did want to note something: When I looked at the photos at the correct resolution and context in a magazine I was holding in my own two hands I found I appreciated the demo shots a lot more. It just goes to show that the internet makes everything terrible.





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"Re(4):First Artwork!" , posted Thu 20 Dec 06:57post reply

quote:
I'm not trying to drudge up this whole mess again but I did want to note something: When I looked at the photos at the correct resolution and context in a magazine I was holding in my own two hands I found I appreciated the demo shots a lot more. It just goes to show that the internet makes everything terrible.



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E5150
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"Re(5):First Artwork!" , posted Sat 22 Dec 07:30post reply

Here's the music from Ryu's stage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGP_EgWShVg





GekigangerV
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"Gameplay" , posted Sat 29 Dec 04:21:post reply

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=221917

Footage. LARGE file size.


*edit*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGuqh6v-gNk

Youtube link.

It appears that Dhalsim is rubbery like SNK vs Capcom.

Its too bad we didn't see a full round with the life, super, revenge bars.

I wonder if super can level up like Alpha. You see Ryu do two kinds of Shinkuu Hadoukens; one where the camera changes and another where it doesn't. Maybe that is the Ultra combo thing, but I thought those were short cinematic combos. I think we see Ken's, but I am not too sure.





[this message was edited by GekigangerV on Sat 29 Dec 06:31]

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"Re(1):Gameplay" , posted Sat 29 Dec 08:32post reply

quote:
I wonder if super can level up like Alpha. You see Ryu do two kinds of Shinkuu Hadoukens; one where the camera changes and another where it doesn't. Maybe that is the Ultra combo thing, but I thought those were short cinematic combos. I think we see Ken's, but I am not too sure.



I think that's the Ultra Combo, as well as Ken's Shinryuken. And I actually like the fact that it's cinematic, but not a sequence outside of the game, like many anime-based fighters.

Regarding the gameplay... The game in movement feels right to me. I like the pace, and I like the collisions (that's very important, at least to me). However, seeing the models in movement I'm not too fond of them. Not horrible, but not as good as I'd like. They look too bulky for my tastes. Maybe they'll grow on me over time, or they'll touch them a bit for better, I don't know.

I would have liked to see the revenge system in action, too.





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"Re(2):Gameplay" , posted Sat 29 Dec 09:27:post reply

SF2+3D=yawn.





[this message was edited by Iggy on Sat 29 Dec 09:30]

Just a Person
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"Re(2):Gameplay" , posted Sat 29 Dec 09:52post reply

quote:
Regarding the gameplay... The game in movement feels right to me. I like the pace, and I like the collisions (that's very important, at least to me). However, seeing the models in movement I'm not too fond of them. Not horrible, but not as good as I'd like. They look too bulky for my tastes. Maybe they'll grow on me over time, or they'll touch them a bit for better, I don't know.



Yeah, maybe the team working on this game will still update the character models. From what the 1UP people said, it seems that SFIV is still in a VERY early stage of development, so a lot of things may still change.

I agree about Ryu and Ken looking too bulky, and specially Ryu's face looked weird. Mainly when Ken hit him hard in the stomach, and Ryu's mouth became really huge... I mean, unrealistically huge (although SF was never about realism, so it may not be as bad as it seems).

But other than that, it looks very good, actually. Much better than what I was expecting (and I'm one of the most optimistic people over here). SFIV may actually be a great game. Now I hope some footage of bulky Dhalsim and unfinished Chun-Li appears on the net soon...





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"Re(3):Gameplay" , posted Sat 29 Dec 12:57post reply

It looks really good though the camera seems to be all over the place, it kinda ruins the perception and its hard to judge distances. At first when they said that with saving system you can do an invulnerable damaging attack I though of kof2003 tag attack which were really horrible but it seems that they have a really slow start-up. From what I understood you can cancel blocking (maybe like SVC:Chaos or Neogeo battle coliseum which I liked) and that is the replacement for parrying.





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"Re(1):Gameplay" , posted Sat 29 Dec 17:39post reply

quote:

*edit*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGuqh6v-gNk



Why do gaming journalists equate big and muscular with American?

That fat bearded guy has conveniently forgotten that SF characters have always been that big, and in fact, they were even bigger and more muscular in Alpha, which was the most overtly "anime" of all the Street Fighters.

I wish 1up would stop constantly making "east/west" comparisons, because I don't think they have a good grasp on such things.





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"Re(2):Gameplay" , posted Sat 29 Dec 20:32:post reply

quote:

*edit*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGuqh6v-gNk


Why do gaming journalists equate big and muscular with American?

That fat bearded guy has conveniently forgotten that SF characters have always been that big, and in fact, they were even bigger and more muscular in Alpha, which was the most overtly "anime" of all the Street Fighters.

I wish 1up would stop constantly making "east/west" comparisons, because I don't think they have a good grasp on such things.

i actually kinda agree with the big fat bearded guy.
feels like sfex with filter :P animation aint that great too.





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[this message was edited by D`Cloud on Sat 29 Dec 20:35]

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"Re(3):Gameplay" , posted Sat 29 Dec 22:16:post reply

quote:

feels like sfex with filter :P animation aint that great too.



The animation isn't anyone's fault, really. I don't think it COULD look good without changing the gameplay. As long as the game moves quickly and you can cancel moves, then it's not going to look right in 3D. That's one of the reasons why I dislike "fake" 2D games.

Also, as for the game looking "American"...well...I've seen a number of Japanese people make similar comments, so it's not just fat bearded Americans. I don't know if Japan knows "American" when they see it, but between Americans knowing "American" and Japanese knowing "not Japanese", I'd say the game has an "American" (or American friendly) flair to it.





[this message was edited by Pollyanna on Sat 29 Dec 22:23]

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"Re(4):Gameplay" , posted Sat 29 Dec 22:44post reply

quote:
"American"...well...I've seen a number of Japanese people make similar comments, so it's not just fat bearded Americans. I don't know if Japan knows "American" when they see it, but between Americans knowing "American" and Japanese knowing "not Japanese", I'd say the game has an "American" (or American friendly) flair to it.


I think the problem is not whether SF4 looks American or not, but really whether the previous SF, or even most of Capcom's historical production, looks purely Japanese or Americanized-Japanese.
Remember Capcom always loved the American culture, from Final Fight to making X-men games with purely japanese teams, before the TV series or movies made them widely popular, not just "for American audiences" but also because the staff liked the comics (the same staff who did the Jojo fighting game, for the same reason).
Or the fact that most of the monsters in Vampire are references to western, and more specifically cheesy American movies (mummy, werewolf, creature of the black lagoon...). Even Bishamon is less of a folkloric Japanese creature and more of a "Japanese frightening thing anyone who saw a samurai movie in its life could identify". The only monster that feels really Japanese would be... Phobos I think ?
And as for Street Fighter, I really don't feel SF2 or 3 look that Japanese, neither the art nor the general art direction. And let's not even begin with Third Strike's music. It's a Japanese take on popular American aesthetics.

People who think SF4 doesn't look Japanese are right. Those who think it doesn't look Japanese enough either haven't played much Street Fighter or don't really know what Japanese means. And that counts for American and Japanese people all alike.





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"Re(5):Gameplay" , posted Sat 29 Dec 22:59post reply

Of course. French people can tell Americans and Japanese what's American and what's Japanese when Americans and Japanes-es can't do it for themselves.





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"Re(6):Gameplay" , posted Sat 29 Dec 23:15post reply

quote:
Of course. French people can tell Americans and Japanese what's American and what's Japanese when Americans and Japanes-es can't do it for themselves.


Why, of course we can. What's the point of being French if we can't ?





D`Cloud
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"Re(4):Gameplay" , posted Sun 30 Dec 01:26post reply

quote:

feels like sfex with filter :P animation aint that great too.


The animation isn't anyone's fault, really. I don't think it COULD look good without changing the gameplay. As long as the game moves quickly and you can cancel moves, then it's not going to look right in 3D. That's one of the reasons why I dislike "fake" 2D games.

Also, as for the game looking "American"...well...I've seen a number of Japanese people make similar comments, so it's not just fat bearded Americans. I don't know if Japan knows "American" when they see it, but between Americans knowing "American" and Japanese knowing "not Japanese", I'd say the game has an "American" (or American friendly) flair to it.

prof posted this 3d game that had great 2d animation feel a while ago.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwjJa9l1cSo

snappy animation.. not as linear as sf4





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nobinobita
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"Re(5):Gameplay" , posted Sun 30 Dec 04:00post reply

quote:

People who think SF4 doesn't look Japanese are right. Those who think it doesn't look Japanese enough either haven't played much Street Fighter or don't really know what Japanese means. And that counts for American and Japanese people all alike.



I agree that SF4 looks more American, but it's not cos of what the fat man said, that they're big and muscular. It's got more to do with the modeling and color choices.

SF2 never looked traditionally anime or ukyo-e, but it still looked very much like a Japanese game from that time period, even in the way it was influenced by American pop culture.

Japanese artists have always been very international with their influences. Japan is the most literate country in the world, and their artists generally look to just about anything for inspiration. Capcom artists use color like impressionists, with anatomy like Rodin. Kazushi Hagiwara incorporated elements of Gustave Dore's bible and Divine Commedy prints into the later chapters of Bastard. Yukito Kishiro was heavily influenced by 2000AD British comics when working on the original GUNM. Kentaro Miura makes Hieronymus Bosch style monsters, prefering to make them creepy and ugly instead of just "cool" looking. Animes from Madhouse like "Combustible Campus Guardress" were incorporating Mike Mignola style shading way before Mignola ever even had his own properties turned into animation.

There's so much variety to Japanese pop culture art out there that it's really silly to limit it to just big eyes and pretty boys (even if that is what makes up half the stuff that's actually brought out to the states)

hmmmm, now I'm curious, what do you all think looks "Japanese" about Japanese art?





D`Cloud
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"Re(6):Gameplay" , posted Sun 30 Dec 05:02post reply

quote:

People who think SF4 doesn't look Japanese are right. Those who think it doesn't look Japanese enough either haven't played much Street Fighter or don't really know what Japanese means. And that counts for American and Japanese people all alike.


I agree that SF4 looks more American, but it's not cos of what the fat man said, that they're big and muscular. It's got more to do with the modeling and color choices.

SF2 never looked traditionally anime or ukyo-e, but it still looked very much like a Japanese game from that time period, even in the way it was influenced by American pop culture.

Japanese artists have always been very international with their influences. Japan is the most literate country in the world, and their artists generally look to just about anything for inspiration. Capcom artists use color like impressionists, with anatomy like Rodin. Kazushi Hagiwara incorporated elements of Gustave Dore's bible and Divine Commedy prints into the later chapters of Bastard. Yukito Kishiro was heavily influenced by 2000AD British comics when working on the original GUNM. Kentaro Miura makes Hieronymus Bosch style monsters, prefering to make them creepy and ugly instead of just "cool" looking. Animes from Madhouse like "Combustible Campus Guardress" were incorporating Mike Mignola style shading way before Mignola ever even had his own properties turned into animation.

There's so much variety to Japanese pop culture art out there that it's really silly to limit it to just big eyes and pretty boys (even if that is what makes up half the stuff that's actually brought out to the states)

hmmmm, now I'm curious, what do you all think looks "Japanese" about Japanese art?

im looking at the samurai spirits sen and for me its very close to being japanesey.. although it has some influences of american here and there





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"Re(7):Gameplay" , posted Sun 30 Dec 06:21post reply

When I think of Ryu I think of his WW win pose where he had a gigantic, freaky grin, a hulking body and clubbed feet with an odd assortment of toes. It makes me happy to see that version of Ryu is back and ready to go in SF4. What constitutes a successful game varies from person to person but that bit of Ken landing that punch to Ryu's gut was lovely in its own violent way and was much closer to what I see when I think of SF than any of the slap-happy A groove CC's from A3. Whether or not the game will be any good is still to be determined but I do like the retro idea of punching someone and making it look like it actually hurts.

I also like that the gameplay clips have already shown up on YouTube for those who feel like watching the game instead of game journalists.





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"Re(8):Gameplay" , posted Sun 30 Dec 06:43:post reply

quote:
What constitutes a successful game varies from person to person but that bit of Ken landing that punch to Ryu's gut was lovely in its own violent way and was much closer to what I see when I think of SF than any of the slap-happy A groove CC's from A3.



I know what you mean, and I appreciate that they're doing dynamic facial expressions, but that face looked goofy. It looked like Ryu was saying "MAAAAAAAAAAAH". It looked awkward. It would look better if he just gritted his teeth, or threw up or something, anything other than making the model open its mouth as wide as possible.

Also, thanks for the links! I really do hope this game shapes up and is fun to play.





[this message was edited by nobinobita on Sun 30 Dec 06:56]

Tai-Pan
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"Re(8):Gameplay" , posted Sun 30 Dec 07:29post reply

quote:
When I think of Ryu I think of his WW win pose where he had a gigantic, freaky grin, a hulking body and clubbed feet with an odd assortment of toes. It makes me happy to see that version of Ryu is back and ready to go in SF4. What constitutes a successful game varies from person to person but that bit of Ken landing that punch to Ryu's gut was lovely in its own violent way and was much closer to what I see when I think of SF than any of the slap-happy A groove CC's from A3. Whether or not the game will be any good is still to be determined but I do like the retro idea of punching someone and making it look like it actually hurts.





I totally agree.





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"Re(8):Gameplay" , posted Sun 30 Dec 08:12post reply

quote:
YouTube


My gosh, it looked like people playing with mattel toys instead of a game.... Of course, that could be wonderful if properly implemented.





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"Re(9):Gameplay" , posted Sun 30 Dec 12:41post reply

It looks like they're using deformations to exaggerate movement, which I like. I also like that they're not using cel-shading. And the camera movement doesn't look any more distracting than SF3 Super Arts. My only concern is the speed, which looks sluggish, but that might only be the video slowing the footage down to fill time.





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"Re(10):Gameplay" , posted Sun 30 Dec 14:07post reply

I'm not getting in an argument about what is or isn't American or Japanese. I don't have nearly enough time to spare.

Also...

quote:
My only concern is the speed, which looks sluggish, but that might only be the video slowing the footage down to fill time.



Actually, I believe they said the final product may be SLOWER.

But the final product could be a lot of things.

Annnd....

D`Cloud

I had Battle Fantasia in mind as well when I made that statement. I can agree that it animates much better than SF 4 and that it shows less of the 3D in 2D problem, but I don't think it's devoid of the issues, just "reasonably devoid" of the issues. Certainly "comparably devoid".

What do you mean less linear, though? It's completely linear.





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"Re(2):Re(10):Gameplay" , posted Mon 31 Dec 00:30post reply

quote:
I'm not getting in an argument about what is or isn't American or Japanese. I don't have nearly enough time to spare.

Also...

My only concern is the speed, which looks sluggish, but that might only be the video slowing the footage down to fill time.


Actually, I believe they said the final product may be SLOWER.

But the final product could be a lot of things.

Annnd....

D`Cloud

I had Battle Fantasia in mind as well when I made that statement. I can agree that it animates much better than SF 4 and that it shows less of the 3D in 2D problem, but I don't think it's devoid of the issues, just "reasonably devoid" of the issues. Certainly "comparably devoid".

What do you mean less linear, though? It's completely linear.

yes battlefantasia needs refinement but it knows what it should feel like.
by linear i mean in animation.. its snappy. it gives the uhmp factor. how the hell do i explain this in words?

instead of 1,3,5, its 1,2,5.
1 starting to punch and 5 the end frame punch.





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"Re(3):Re(10):Gameplay" , posted Mon 31 Dec 01:19post reply

I think Ishmael has the best comment so far, it really does hark back to the SF2 days that I love, big damage, hard hitting fists.

I hated how the Alpha games degenerated into longer lifebars and whacking your opponent 30 times in a row. What I loved about SF2 was your opponent could knock you down to almost 0 health yet you could still feasibly come back and win it with a few well timed hits and combos.





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"Re(5):Gameplay" , posted Mon 31 Dec 19:38post reply

quote:
prof posted this 3d game that had great 2d animation feel a while ago.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwjJa9l1cSo

snappy animation.. not as linear as sf4



Has anyone seen this game in person? Does it really look that much like Gulity Gear or is the fact every YouTube video is slightly fuzzy making the graphics look a lot more like 'crisp 2D sprites' then they really are?






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"Re(6):Gameplay" , posted Tue 8 Jan 01:20post reply

The Magic Box has posted some pictures of SF4 that they acquired from who knows where. The look on Ken's face as he eats a point-blank super is great. Distortion and exaggeration are standard in the presentation of 2D fighters but SF4 is the only 3D game I can think of that is trying to replicate that feel. Now I can't wait for Blanka to show up so I can not check out his animation but see if his opponents will flop around with visible skeletons when they get electrocuted.





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"Re(7):Gameplay" , posted Tue 8 Jan 02:54post reply

quote:
The Magic Box has posted some pictures of SF4 that they acquired from who knows where. The look on Ken's face as he eats a point-blank super is great. Distortion and exaggeration are standard in the presentation of 2D fighters but SF4 is the only 3D game I can think of that is trying to replicate that feel. Now I can't wait for Blanka to show up so I can not check out his animation but see if his opponents will flop around with visible skeletons when they get electrocuted.



Ken's face in the first screenshot looks hideous, really badly made, like something from MK4.

The other pictures look good, though. It's nice to see that Ryu's belt has some ideograms in it, while Ken's don't (it would be cool trying to give more visual differences between Ken and Ryu).





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"Re(8):Gameplay" , posted Tue 8 Jan 05:59post reply

quote:

Ken's face in the first screenshot looks hideous, really badly made, like something from MK4.
Oh man, Battle Arena Toushinden lives on in 2008!


...sorry, Toushinden.





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nobinobita
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"Re(7):Gameplay" , posted Tue 8 Jan 07:57:post reply

quote:
The Magic Box has posted some pictures of SF4 that they acquired from who knows where.



There are so many places where the characters joints are horribly out of place. They seem to be articulated like action figures, with very obvious and simple jointing of limbs (especially with the shoulders and ankles). It could easily just be a problem with the rig in its early stages though (i hope!)

I'm starting to appreciate the colorful look of the game too. It's got a nice supersaturated feel to it without being garish.





[this message was edited by nobinobita on Wed 9 Jan 00:53]

nobinobita
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"Ikeno Interview on 1up" , posted Tue 8 Jan 08:05post reply

There's a great interview with Ikeno on 1up:

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pager.offset=0&cId=3165156

Well, actually it's a pretty terrible interview. The interviewer tries very hard to be charming and ingratiating and says some pretty ignorant stuff like (while speaking of Ken and Ryu):

"there's not really much to their character designs. They're two guys wearing karate uniforms. If Street Fighter II hadn't been so successful, they would have disappeared like so many other Ken and Ryu clones."

Ikeno's answers are great though. And I'm glad that they took the initiative to interview him in the first place. Another treat is there are some very awesome drawings of his for SF4. Just quick sketches, but they are beautiful.





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"Re(1):Ikeno Interview on 1up" , posted Tue 8 Jan 17:53post reply

quote:

Ikeno's answers are great though. And I'm glad that they took the initiative to interview him in the first place. Another treat is there are some very awesome drawings of his for SF4. Just quick sketches, but they are beautiful.



Interesting answers indeed! I'm actually quite surprised to learn he puts his personal tastes aside when designing this game, and the fact he doesn't like to draw girls! The reasoning to that is great too. It's just like the complete opposite from most japanese artists.






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"New Character" , posted Wed 9 Jan 17:19:post reply

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/GekiV/60944_viploader555739_122_336lo.jpg

New Street Fighter IV character from NEOgaf.

Crimson Viper.

Looks like a toned down Falcoon design from KOF Maximum Impact.

They are saying at NEOGAF that she's a pro-wrestler, but I don't see anything in the text about that.





[this message was edited by GekigangerV on Wed 9 Jan 17:21]

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"Re(1):New Character" , posted Wed 9 Jan 18:10post reply

quote:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/GekiV/60944_viploader555739_122_336lo.jpg

New Street Fighter IV character from NEOgaf.

Crimson Viper.

Looks like a toned down Falcoon design from KOF Maximum Impact.

They are saying at NEOGAF that she's a pro-wrestler, but I don't see anything in the text about that.

so they dont want to have exotic looking characters but rather have fashion/disaster model looking characters. Hmmm.





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"Re(2):New Character" , posted Wed 9 Jan 19:16post reply

quote:
so they dont want to have exotic looking characters but rather have fashion/disaster model looking characters. Hmmm.


Excuse me sir, but do you have your fashion police badge ?
Yeah, that's what I thought.

As for the character, it all depends the way she moves and (hopefully doesn't) bounce.





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"Re(2):New Character" , posted Wed 9 Jan 19:18post reply

quote:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/GekiV/60944_viploader555739_122_336lo.jpg

New Street Fighter IV character from NEOgaf.

Crimson Viper.

Looks like a toned down Falcoon design from KOF Maximum Impact.

They are saying at NEOGAF that she's a pro-wrestler, but I don't see anything in the text about that.
so they dont want to have exotic looking characters but rather have fashion/disaster model looking characters. Hmmm.



Yup. Well, not really a bad design... it just looks very different from what we've seen in Street Fighter (and considering people like Blanka or Necro were already part of the SF cast, that's saying a lot).

Her name is also different from usual SF names (it kinda remindis me of that Way of the Warrior game...), even writing just C.Viper instead of Crimson Viper.

HOWEVER, we still need to wait and see how she fights. Maybe she'll turn out to be a great character (not only gameplay-wise) in the game.





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"Re(3):New Character" , posted Thu 10 Jan 00:19post reply

She's REALLY different from the typical SF design, wow. Now I'm confused: Didn't Ono say he wanted to preserve the "SFII spirit"? Well, she looks, at first glance, really out of place, design-wise. It's not a bad design per se, but to me, she would fit better in KOFXII or Tekken 6. However, she has bonus design points for resembling Vanessa a bit.

Maybe once she starts moving and we get different shots at her design, she'll look less out of place.





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"Re(4):New Character" , posted Thu 10 Jan 00:32post reply

quote:
She's REALLY different from the typical SF design, wow. Now I'm confused: Didn't Ono say he wanted to preserve the "SFII spirit"? Well, she looks, at first glance, really out of place, design-wise. It's not a bad design per se, but to me, she would fit better in KOFXII or Tekken 6. However, she has bonus design points for resembling Vanessa a bit.

Maybe once she starts moving and we get different shots at her design, she'll look less out of place.



Completely agree with all your points TM. We'll have to see how she looks while in movement to better judge her but initially, she does look a little out of place.





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"Re(4):New Character" , posted Thu 10 Jan 00:46post reply

quote:
Well, she looks, at first glance, really out of place, design-wise. It's not a bad design per se, but to me, she would fit better in KOFXII or Tekken 6.

I kinda disagree. She's definitely not a Falcoon or Nona absurdity, while being still too strange to be a (human) Tekken character.
I think she would fit pretty well in SF3, which puzzles me even more when they act like it never happened.





Ishmael
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"Re(5):New Character" , posted Thu 10 Jan 00:54post reply

I need to see more of her hair before I can make a decision on her. Still, after playing KoFXI and experiencing the horror that is Momoko it's refreshing to see a new female character who is an actual woman.





KTallguy
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"Re(5):New Character" , posted Thu 10 Jan 03:54:post reply

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Completely agree with all your points TM. We'll have to see how she looks while in movement to better judge her but initially, she does look a little out of place.



Yea, I'm not so sure about her yet. I wonder what her fighting style is... doesn't the article say that she is Vega's concubine or something?





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[this message was edited by KTallguy on Thu 10 Jan 03:54]

Baines
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"Re(5):New Character" , posted Thu 10 Jan 04:15post reply

quote:
I think she would fit pretty well in SF3, which puzzles me even more when they act like it never happened.


Something about her design makes me think of a guy like Dudley. As you say, she would fit in SF3. But they are ignoring SF3 in part because people rejected its designs, only for the new character to look like the far end of an SF3 style character?

As for KOF, I see more a mixture of Mature (top), King (pants), and Benimaru (hair) than Vanessa. She wouldn't even have to be a Falcoon KOF:MI design, because she'd fit right into the main series.

The name almost makes me think of SFEX, as it would go right along with Doctrine Dark and Cracker Jack.





Mosquiton
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"Re(6):New Character" , posted Thu 10 Jan 09:16post reply

quote:
I see more a mixture of Mature (top), King (pants), and Benimaru (hair) than Vanessa. She wouldn't even have to be a Falcoon KOF:MI design, because she'd fit right into the main series.



I thin people are getting Vanessa from the tie between the tits and the gloves.

I personally am not a huge fan of the huge hair.





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Maou
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"Re(6):New Character" , posted Thu 10 Jan 13:09post reply

quote:
But they are ignoring SF3 in part because people rejected its designs, only for the new character to look like the far end of an SF3 style character?
Now that you mention that, she does look like Remy (which is to say, KOF), though that's probably not a good thing. Even if I was partial to Sakura and company, I thought SF3's art was hot hot hot. Well, except Remy. It always seemed like that poor sap had like 2 frames of animation when everyone else had thousands, but maybe that was just boredom with him setting in.





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