Is blue-ray and HD-DVD really the future? - http://www.mmcafe.com/ Forums


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crazymike
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"Is blue-ray and HD-DVD really the future?" , posted Tue 27 Mar 19:05post reply

While everyone is arguing about whether Sony will bring blue-ray to dominance with the PS3 or Microsoft with HD-DVD, think about the average consumer.

It is only in the last 3-4 years we've seen DVD player sales skyrocket and infiltrate the average consumers home. There is a library of tens of thousands of DVD's. I really don't think consumers are ready for a changeover so soon.

I think high-def DVD will go the way of SACD, exist only for the purist. Frankly I think movies in DVD are overrated anyway and don't look all that much greater than standard DVD's. Maybe my eyes deceive me, but they seem to not compare to television actually shot in HD to begin with.

Also, I think Sony and Toshiba are fools if they think the average consumer is going to throw out their existing DVD collection and re-buy old movies over the years in HD. By the time blue-ray and HD-DVD players are somewhat affordable, most of my "favorite" films I'll have already and I do not see myself forking out 30 dollars in cash for "The Pursuit of Happyness" in HD so I can see the individual whiskers in Will Smith's beard.






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Time Mage
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"Re(1):Is blue-ray and HD-DVD really the futur" , posted Tue 27 Mar 19:47post reply

I think they are the future... An imposed one.

I agree with you: the DVD is still very young, and your average consumer won't notice any difference between a DVD and a HD format, partly because many don't own a HD TV. However, the DVD was not really necessary either, and they managed to make everyone buy one. I am aware that the DVD has many more advantages over the VHS than the HD formats over the DVD, but what really sold the DVD was pure marketing, and that can be done with the new formats.

They won't convince me, and probably not many others from here, but the uninformed people (which is the vast majority) is easy to manipulate through a clever marketing campaign.





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"Re(1):Is blue-ray and HD-DVD really the futur" , posted Tue 27 Mar 19:50post reply

quote:
Also, I think Sony and Toshiba are fools if they think the average consumer is going to throw out their existing DVD collection and re-buy old movies over the years in HD. By the time blue-ray and HD-DVD players are somewhat affordable, most of my "favorite" films I'll have already and I do not see myself forking out 30 dollars in cash for "The Pursuit of Happyness" in HD so I can see the individual whiskers in Will Smith's beard.



I say pretty much the same thing about hi-def in general every day. I don't have perfect vision (though I don't need glasses), so HDTV is a total waste of money for me because I can barely tell the difference. Yet the asses in tech control are now trying to dictate that I will need an HDTV in order to do anything in the future. And since it's supposedly "replacing" the older TV, do we get the same size? Of course not, for the same price we have to scale back down to about half the TV size, except now you can see so clear, I'm told. If you sit close enough. It took me years to get a TV that I could see from 15 feet away, and now they expect me to buy one that I have to sit in front of like that retarded kid in Poltergeist. As if I need my eyes to get worse.





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"Re(2):Is blue-ray and HD-DVD really the futur" , posted Tue 27 Mar 20:59:post reply

quote:

I say pretty much the same thing about hi-def in general every day. I don't have perfect vision (though I don't need glasses), so HDTV is a total waste of money for me because I can barely tell the difference.



Seriously? I mean...I didn't think of HD too much myself until I got an HD TV. Well, actually...let me rephrase that. For watching TV, it didn't look much better than a very good normal TV, but after I got my 360, I started to see a real difference. Now I can tell a big difference between HD and non HD as well as different HD modes (I kept fighting with myself on which mode to use on Blue Dragon, finally deciding that regardless of possible animation issues, 1080 was just too pretty to pass up).

I use component cables for my PS2, but many games still look kinda muddy after playing 360, and the difference on DVD playback is noteworthy as well.

But the thing is, comparing it to a very good non-HD TV, it makes little to no difference on TV programs and little difference on non-HD video games. I think it's a totally different story for things made with HD in mind, though.

Of course, the same applies for Blue-Ray and HD-DVD...meaning, if you don't have the right setup, the difference is very minimal. If you have a super fancy HD TV, then I'm sure you can tell the difference...but that's a percentage of a percentage, and while HDTVs are quickly becoming the norm, super high end ones are not. People who think they're getting something fancy by watching Blue-Ray on a low-end HDTV are just fooling themselves.

The only thing that would make me say that DVDs were made successful due to marketing is the fact that they were essentially the same as LDs, which were insanely unpopular (whereas DVDs became very popular very quickly).

Still, DVDs had the advantage of being cheaper and smaller with more options and better picture quality. Beside that, the world had already accepted CDs over tapes, so it was quite natural to accept DVDs over VHS.

However, the new formats only have the advantage of better picture quality (and holding more data, but that's more important from a software perspective), so they seem more likely to end up like LDs (Better picture, but more expensive and more for people who are really into it).

On the other hand...now we're seeing next gen format DVDs that are dual-sided with a "normal" DVD version as well. If companies really push them, we may be getting next-gen formats as the norm for releases without alienating people who have not bought into the format yet. (although there's still the matter of price...)





[this message was edited by Pollyanna on Tue 27 Mar 21:01]

hikarutilmitt
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"Re(3):Is blue-ray and HD-DVD really the futur" , posted Tue 27 Mar 22:56post reply

The bottom line about HD things is jut like with DVDs back in the day: if you don't want to see a difference or don't care to then you probably won't. I was snapped up by HD back when it was in its infancy and super expensive simply because I COULD see a difference in the picture quality, and it does enhance the experience, to me. I don't watch House in HD just because I can see the scruffy beard on Hugh Laurie more clearly and defined, it's because the image is just plain better and easier on the eyes than the blurry, noisy mess that is the SDTV airing.

My dad actually wasn't that big on getting a DVD player or DVDs and "didn't see a difference to make it better than VHS tapes" (his own words) and then we bought him a DVD player for his birthday one year and suddenly he LOVES DVDs because they've actually gotten cheaper than VHS tapes were and he could finally see the quality difference. The same thing happened with HDTV, he and my mom both didn't care about HD that much until they were at my apartment one night and saw it. now they both really want it, but they can't justify the plunge quite yet.

The funny thing is that digital cable with the HD tier and some movies channels was cheaper than the regular, bare-bones cable they were getting.

With gaming the bonuses to HD are immediately noticeable, but the same can be said about running a PC game in 1280x960 over 640x480. I rather like the BRD format because you can get a very high resolution picture running progressive scan (hate rainbows, god I hate rainbows) and with an uncompressed soundtrack, something DVD simply couldn't offer, though DTS is still mighty nice.

At the same time, we're looking at the same issue with HDDVD and BRD as we did when DVDs were coming out: in the first generation or three you won't see massive gains on it, necessarily, because it IS a new format and some of the studios aren't used to putting out or even preparing that much HD content. People said DVDs weren't as good as laser discs and barely better than VHS back 10 years ago (up to even 6 years ago in some cases), but look at them now. You don't necessarily have to buy a Criterion or Superbit DVD release to get a well-authored DVD anymore, those end up remaining for the enthusiasts and people who just want a ton of content.

I think this just comes down to presence. Once someone is shown something that just hooks them, they see the difference and can then begin their trek to the new technology.





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"Re(1):Is blue-ray and HD-DVD really the futur" , posted Tue 27 Mar 22:56post reply

Pretty much what Polyanna said, if you have an HDTV set you can start to see the difference in video quality with BluRay and consoles that can output in HD. I only have a 1080i set and the difference is pretty much night and day.

But what will really push the format is probably an end to the war between Bluray and HD-DVD. Which will probably happen before the end of the year, with Bluray probably winning. It's already got Japan under control (With Bandai Visual switching to format after backing HDDVD). And with more of the big studios backing Bluray in the US it's probably just a matter of time before the war ends. Heck, Microsoft is even talking about a Bluray drive for the 360.

And while this does smell of a forced change, at least BluRay/HDDVD players are backwards compatable. The fact they still play DVD's means the DVD format will still be out there for at least a few more years...





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"Re(4):Is blue-ray and HD-DVD really the futur" , posted Tue 27 Mar 23:01post reply

quote:

At the same time, we're looking at the same issue with HDDVD and BRD as we did when DVDs were coming out: in the first generation or three you won't see massive gains on it, necessarily, because it IS a new format and some of the studios aren't used to putting out or even preparing that much HD content. People said DVDs weren't as good as laser discs and barely better than VHS back 10 years ago (up to even 6 years ago in some cases), but look at them now. You don't necessarily have to buy a Criterion or Superbit DVD release to get a well-authored DVD anymore, those end up remaining for the enthusiasts and people who just want a ton of content.

I think this just comes down to presence. Once someone is shown something that just hooks them, they see the difference and can then begin their trek to the new technology.



I know that for the first generation of Blu Ray discs the images weren't that much better than DVD since they used the same codec, MPEG2. But luckily the later ones have switched to a better codec HD codec and the difference is clear as day (Casino Royale looks great in HD).

What may be the selling point for high definition discs, though, is broadcast TV. I think alot of people are starting to get the idea of HD, and what may push the switch to BluRay/HDDVD is when they go to pick up a box set of a TV show they watched. I doubt alot of them will be willing to drop down from HD to SD...





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"Re(5):Is blue-ray and HD-DVD really the futur" , posted Tue 27 Mar 23:44post reply

Those reasons you all mention are really valid, but they start from the premise that you already have a good HDTV. Frankly, right now, I cannot see myself spending 800 on a new TV to be able to appreciate the differences from DVD to the new formats. In the future, when HDTVs become standard and cheaper, there will be more reasons to the new formats, but not now, I think. Or at least, not enough.





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hikarutilmitt
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"Re(6):Is blue-ray and HD-DVD really the futur" , posted Wed 28 Mar 02:26post reply

I know one thing that's going to bother me for a while is that when I get a PS3 I'll likely end up using that to play BRD until BRD-ROM drives for PCs become cheaper and they maybe find a way to easily (and legally) circumvent the stupid HDCP DRM crap they forced into the format (moreso HDVDVD than BRD, though, apparently) so that I can play BRD movies in my HTPC. I've already gotten used to using it for my DVDs and I love it, I don't want to have to buy a new video card just for that computer just so I can play movies I legally bought.





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"Yes!" , posted Wed 28 Mar 02:34:post reply

quote:
Those reasons you all mention are really valid, but they start from the premise that you already have a good HDTV. Frankly, right now, I cannot see myself spending 800 on a new TV to be able to appreciate the differences from DVD to the new formats. In the future, when HDTVs become standard and cheaper, there will be more reasons to the new formats, but not now, I think. Or at least, not enough.



Well, I bought an HDTV and a 360 the same day, but first I tested Gears of War on my 32" Sony Wega and then on my new TV and man, like Satoshi Miwa said "It's night and day". Now I cannot go back to a normal TV. I still need to test my TV with a PS3, but I won't buy one until the good games are launched.





[this message was edited by ONSLAUGHT on Wed 28 Mar 03:07]

Time Mage
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"Re(1):Yes!" , posted Wed 28 Mar 03:37post reply

Bunch of graphic whores... With money...





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"Re(2):Yes!" , posted Wed 28 Mar 04:51post reply

quote:
Bunch of graphic whores... With money...



My TV is still a 1980 MGA mitsubishi with 2 channels left I am in the same both with you, my HD is that right there

We will see the light one day.. One day..





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Undead Fred
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"Re(3):Yes!" , posted Wed 28 Mar 06:38post reply

While I'm open to getting an HDTV if I had the money for it, I'm not touching any of that stuff until I got some sort of HD-DVD/BluRay/whatever player that did that fake up-rez on normal DVD's (I had heard they exist anyway). And if they don't exist, I'm really not interested in re-buying my whole collection just for the sake of a prettier picture... and I'm sure plenty of other people feel the same.

I agree that this change-over's kind of early and forced... until HDTV's are the same price as regular crappy TV's, the cost of "but the picture's so much nicer!" isn't going to be a big enough reason to switch for a lot of people. As it's been said before, the difference between high-def and regular DVD's isn't as big as the difference between VHS and DVD (also similar to the difference between cassettes and CD's).

I'm interested, but not THAT interested just yet. Especially since I saw what a regular DVD looks like on an HD set.





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"Re(4):Yes!" , posted Wed 28 Mar 07:32post reply

Are HD TVs really expensive in places other than America? If you don't demand something really fancy and you catch a good deal, you can get a decent sized one for under $400.

Although they aren't top of the line, Best Buy has a generic brand HDTV line that's extremely cheap and perfectly adequate for most people.

Of course if you want one of those fancy-pants wall-hanging thin models, then you're gonna pay a lot.





Satoshi Miwa
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"Re(5):Yes!" , posted Wed 28 Mar 08:20post reply

quote:
Are HD TVs really expensive in places other than America? If you don't demand something really fancy and you catch a good deal, you can get a decent sized one for under $400.

Although they aren't top of the line, Best Buy has a generic brand HDTV line that's extremely cheap and perfectly adequate for most people.

Of course if you want one of those fancy-pants wall-hanging thin models, then you're gonna pay a lot.



I dunno about the states, but I've seen HD TV's up in Canada anywhere from $400 to $100. This ranges from 26" to 39" in Tubes, projection and LCD. Granted these are no name to somewhat brand name. But unless you want really big the prices are there





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"Re(5):Yes!" , posted Wed 28 Mar 09:01post reply

quote:
Are HD TVs really expensive in places other than America?

I don't know about the rest of America or Europe but here in Mexico, they are VERY expensive.
The cheapest and most generic LCD's cost 1600 USD...
Mine was a bit expensive ($2800 USD to be precise), but I don't regret buying it. I want to buy a bigger one though, but that won't happen in at least 3 years from now.





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"Re(6):DUnno" , posted Wed 28 Mar 09:03post reply

quote:
Are HD TVs really expensive in places other than America? If you don't demand something really fancy and you catch a good deal, you can get a decent sized one for under $400.

Although they aren't top of the line, Best Buy has a generic brand HDTV line that's extremely cheap and perfectly adequate for most people.

Of course if you want one of those fancy-pants wall-hanging thin models, then you're gonna pay a lot.


I dunno about the states, but I've seen HD TV's up in Canada anywhere from $400 to $100. This ranges from 26" to 39" in Tubes, projection and LCD. Granted these are no name to somewhat brand name. But unless you want really big the prices are there




One word: DiVX.

Physical media is for dinosaurs. Think about how easily dvds and cds are scratched. You can't trust that. Vhs and cassetes were more reliable but supposedly has less desireable analog technology.

Thats not to say hd technology doesnt look stupendous but its still the same old same old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_tv if they can make downloadable content quality compete with HD blue ray they might be onto something..

But really do we need more pasty faced nerds having pissing contests over their home theater setup. Why not try going outside and enjoying nature, get involved in politics. Right now i like to watch moives on my DS on the go.





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ONSLAUGHT
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"Re(7):DUnno" , posted Wed 28 Mar 11:28post reply

quote:
Why not try going outside and enjoying nature, get involved in politics.


Well, this is not the cas... bah, screw you.





hikarutilmitt
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"Re(7):DUnno" , posted Wed 28 Mar 15:23post reply

quote:
One word: DiVX.


A second word: outdated.

Lots of the "smart" groups that make rips or even fansub anime have been switching to the h.264 formats or just sticking with XviD, since DivX isn't really open-source and is still mostly poor quality for something they expect people to pay for (not saying people do or should, just that it's not "free"). And before anyone says it, yes, I'm aware of what XviD is. :P

Come to think of it, I haven't seen an ACTUAL DivX encoded file in forever, but I'm glad because the format always reminded me of the intense blunder that Circuit City and many consumers fell into when DVD and DivX were the new formats. At least most of us were smart and went DVD.





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"Re(8):DUnno" , posted Wed 28 Mar 19:05:post reply

I personally think that the future of movie media will be in read-only solid state form - kinda like buying flash drives with movies loaded in them. Solid state memory is getting cheaper and larger, and you'll solve a lot of physical optical disc and wonky laser read problems if everyone switches to this. So you can throw your player out, and just plug it into your TV and voila instant movie with super seek times.

The only problem about selling these will be packaging. Solid state memory is small so the box must be grossly larger than them?

Oh, and dumb kids and pets all around the world will end up swallowing more than a few of them





[this message was edited by Holiday on Wed 28 Mar 19:07]

Bata kun
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"Meh." , posted Thu 29 Mar 01:28:post reply

Even I own a couple of TV sets that's HD, I will never understand the deal with with them. Oh sure, you get better details, but you know what? I could care less about them.

Never mind the fact that they're expensive. They're a bother to set up and even if you do manage to set yours up properly, you have lots of complicated ways to deal with in regards of maintenance. The set up in my brother's room? It has so many instructions I will never catch on, which is a reason why I don't go there as much as I would.

To those that are behind times, don't worry. I still watch VHS more often than most people here and I still like watching from the set in my room, which is bordering with the other HD TV set. Watching with new devices is nice, but would seeing them convince me to buy them? No and even though I have a 360 in my household, I generally don't touch it willingly partially because it's in my brother's room.

I do happen to like Divx. Of course, you'd expect that from someone like me. Then again, groups do switch to Xvid because of quality reasons.

So, to answer the question, yes. However, it's a clamped down one and by that, I mean that not every home will end up with the materials seeing that they're expensive. Even if I was given $5,000, I'd likely end up blowing the money on mainly games.







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[this message was edited by Bata kun on Thu 29 Mar 01:44]

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"Re(1):Meh." , posted Thu 29 Mar 04:54post reply

quote:

Never mind the fact that they're expensive. They're a bother to set up and even if you do manage to set yours up properly, you have lots of complicated ways to deal with in regards of maintenance.



I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you have extremely high end ones or something? I've never seen an HDTV that's more than one plug or one menu more complicated than a normal one.

I mean, maybe me and my friends are the exception and we got "lucky easy HDTVs", but it seems like maybe you've had an unusually bad experience.





Satoshi Miwa
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"Re(2):Meh." , posted Thu 29 Mar 10:39post reply

quote:

Never mind the fact that they're expensive. They're a bother to set up and even if you do manage to set yours up properly, you have lots of complicated ways to deal with in regards of maintenance.


I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you have extremely high end ones or something? I've never seen an HDTV that's more than one plug or one menu more complicated than a normal one.

I mean, maybe me and my friends are the exception and we got "lucky easy HDTVs", but it seems like maybe you've had an unusually bad experience.



HDMI really makes the set up simple for my set. Just plug the cable in, switch to the input and it's all set in HD. Maybe older sets are problematic, but the new sets seem very simple to set up.

Now if you want to use stuff like PiP than your on your own, but than PiP is really gimmicky...





hikarutilmitt
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"Re(3):Meh." , posted Thu 29 Mar 10:45post reply

Yeah, my HDTV from 4 years ago isn't any more complicated than a normal TV. Component inputs match, DVI input matches, etc. there's nothing at all difficult about setting it up. You don't have to set the resolution it sets itself in the device you're using.





Bata kun
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"Scenario" , posted Thu 29 Mar 13:55post reply

quote:

Never mind the fact that they're expensive. They're a bother to set up and even if you do manage to set yours up properly, you have lots of complicated ways to deal with in regards of maintenance.


I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you have extremely high end ones or something? I've never seen an HDTV that's more than one plug or one menu more complicated than a normal one.

I mean, maybe me and my friends are the exception and we got "lucky easy HDTVs", but it seems like maybe you've had an unusually bad experience.



I'll try to give a scenario that'll make sense. Brothers scolded me for leaving the television on when I paused in a game. Apparently, you're supposed to put it in some sort of screen saver mode after you paused. Otherwise, it'll burst a part or something. I don't know, seeing that I'm not a tech wiz.

The point is that I don't like having to do this sort of routine every single bloody time. I'd rather pause and do what I need to do. Hope this helps.







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"Re(1):Scenario" , posted Thu 29 Mar 15:51post reply

quote:

I'll try to give a scenario that'll make sense. Brothers scolded me for leaving the television on when I paused in a game. Apparently, you're supposed to put it in some sort of screen saver mode after you paused. Otherwise, it'll burst a part or something. I don't know, seeing that I'm not a tech wiz.

The point is that I don't like having to do this sort of routine every single bloody time. I'd rather pause and do what I need to do. Hope this helps.



The reason why you're being scolded is because, if you leave a static image for a large period of time, you are forcing the device to show the same damn thing all the time and you'll make it burn the screen with it.

Screensavers prevent this by usually showing a black screen with something moving on it, avoiding showing something that is static. That's the rule, if the screensaver is well designed.

So, you can turn the screensaver on when you leave your game's paused, or you can switch the tv off. It's not that complicated isn't it? And this is not bad for HDTV sets, it's bad for regular TVs as well. Actually I know that this happens with regular TVs and PC monitors with tubes, I don't know about plasma and LCD screens. I guess it's bad as well.






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hikarutilmitt
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"Re(2):Scenario" , posted Thu 29 Mar 16:00post reply

Generally anything CRT-based like tube monitors or SDTVs or some HDTVs (projection and WEGA and such) has a chance of screen burn because of the phosphors. LCD and Plasma usually won't and DLP never will because of the technology it uses.





Pollyanna
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"Re(3):Scenario" , posted Thu 29 Mar 18:23post reply

Yeah, but you've gotta leave something on for a really long time to get screen burn. People who worry about it are probably overreacting or acting out of ignorance.





Bata kun
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"Re(4):Scenario" , posted Thu 29 Mar 23:54post reply

Well, I guess I can turn the screen off. Still, with so many complicated features, I'll probably never fully embrace it and just stick with my old fashioned set.







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"Re(8):DUnno" , posted Fri 30 Mar 07:06post reply

quote:

Lots of the "smart" groups that make rips or even fansub anime have been switching to the h.264 formats or just sticking with XviD, since DivX isn't really open-source and is still mostly poor quality for something they expect people to pay for (not saying people do or should, just that it's not "free"). And before anyone says it, yes, I'm aware of what XviD is. :P




Well seems most of the so-called "smart" groups are encoding to MKV, which is retarded because you can't watch it on a Divx player and not even a modded Xbox can handle most of the encodes. Watching anime on my PC isn't my thing.

Of course who is a pirate to bitch & complain.





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"Re(9):DUnno" , posted Fri 30 Mar 10:17post reply

I think any actual fansub group that releases shows in MKV or OGM format is utterly stupid because they're just containers for a video file and either another language (no point) or to keep the sub stream from being part of the image, but that's just ridiculous.

And rips I won't really talk about, since those are straight up piracy instead of the gray area of fansubs. :P