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| crazymike 1268th Post
 
Red Carpet Executive Member
  
    
    
    
|  "Fighting games & the "tier" tourny crowd" , posted Sat 3 Feb 06:37:
Was just commenting on gamefaqs boards the other day (or trolling, flaming, whatever) about GG:Accent Core being another rehash and not all that different to justify its release. Of course I got the shoryuken-esque monkies who swarmed around me saying "what, you don't notice that Ky's stun edge goes 10 degrees higher?" (okay that is a made-up exaggeration but you get the point).
But anyway I guess my point is, do you think the "tier" culture has ruined fighting games?
Instead of coming up with something new we instead get these "balance" releases which seem pointless in the end anyway because most tourny player end up doing Ryu v.s Ryu matches.
Whatever happened to playing for fun? I always enjoyed fighting games with my friends around the house, drinking beer, and talking shit to each other. We never argued whether one character's move was cheaper than the other or "that was not fair", we just played and had fun, which is what games are about. Hell my friends didn't even know what a tier was to begin with, they were just casual gamers.
Normally I would say the tier crowd can have their little subculture, that is fine by me, but it seems fighting game companies are pandering to them and intent on not doing anything new because they know that a few balance changes is what will please this 1% crowd to keep putting tokens in.
No game will be perfect, it will ALWAYS be broken. I always find it an oxymoron that hardcore players say "this version will balance things out" yet also say "well these guys are top tier..." if a game was truly balanced, there would be no tiers, every character would have an equal chance of winning.
Also, on a final note, I find it humorous that tiers seem to change on a yearly or even sometimes monthly basis LOL. The game didn't change, only the players. More proof tiers is a scam and that it is nothing more than a non-scientific view of looking at what characters are picked the most and tend to win at tournaments. It is ultimately up to the player not the game.
[this message was edited by crazymike on Sat 3 Feb 06:52] |
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| Time Mage 2503th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
 
| "Re(1):Fighting games & the" , posted Sat 3 Feb 07:35
Once fighting games ceased to be popular among the majority of gamers, they tended to specialize, and it's a logical thing.
If now the majority of the people who play this games are the ones that demand balancing, complex fighting engines, and that the game is tourney-worthy, you have to deliver them that. And, of course, balancing and tweaking an already existing game is easier and cheaper than making a new one, and the hardcore fans will be equally pleased.
I think I am in a point in between the casual fighting game player and the hardcore player: I do distinguish between the different versions changes and tweaks, and most of the time, I appreciate them. I'm not the one who is going to receive those usually small changes with joy, but I understand them. However, I can have the same fun with an older version of that game without thinking "I have to stop playing this, because this isn't what's played in tournaments", like some people think.
Maybe it is because that's my point of view, but I think it's the best way to approach the situation. It allows you to appreciate the changes while not being a tier taliban.
I'm the leading man. You know what they say abut the leading man? He NEVER dies.
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| Maese Spt 352th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(5):unf" , posted Sat 3 Feb 12:32
I think this "tier" fuss is pretty silly, but it actually has existed since forever... Heck, back on he good ol' days of Street Fighter 2, EVERYBODY knew they had to play with Ryu and Ken instead of Zangief or Honda if they really wanted to get any further in the game. That being said, I did see some awesome Zangief players back in he day, and I myself was pretty good with Honda... but you get my point.
The sad thing is that nowadays, whenever a new fighting game hits the arcades, everybody goes whinning like "ZOMG, BROKEN AS HELL!!!11". I guess they think it sounds pro, or cool, or something. It's very annoying.
Perhaps that means I've become a casual player, but so be it.
マツケン サンバ!!!!
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| Pollyanna 2158th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):unf" , posted Sat 3 Feb 12:34
quote:
It sucks that fighting games have turned into "OMG WHICH CHARACTER HAS THE MOST ADVANTAGES/KILLS EVERYONE ELSE FOR FREE",
First, I agree with Brandon's agreement, though I'm displeased that he agreed first, because now it just looks like I'm agreeing to agree.
Anyway, I think this is a slightly different issue. I hate those kind of people too, but I don't think they're necessarily in the same class as the people who would be excited about another GG tweak. (or rather, they're a different part of that class) Just because you can pick out every little minor change doesn't mean that you have a shitty attitude about only using the "best" character.
But yeah, it still pisses me off when I see people use Kula/Oswald/Gato in KOFXI. I mean, one of those, sure. Two? Maybe. But all 3? It irritates me because, as silly as it sounds, I think what characters you use, what colors you use and what strategies you use with those characters are a form of self-expression. Based on these elements, you sort of form a bond with the person you're playing...or I do at least.
But a group of people that use overpowered characters with one killer strategy only say "I suck" about themselves, and those who don't say "I don't such, but I always lose."
My big problem isn't just these people, but rather that only hard core players or idiots play in arcades. You can't be "good" at fighting games anymore. You're either so bad that it's funny, or so awesome that you can only play against other totally awesome people.
In my case, I beat every single crappy person and lose 90% of the time against the insane people. Naturally, the insane people get so good because they play whenever they can, so there's a pretty decent chance any time you go to the arcade, they'll be there. This discourages the decent players from playing and the crappy players from becoming decent.
Of course, these people have every right to kick ass all day long...it's not that they're doing anything WRONG, but I think it's creating an increasingly elitist market that's already fairly small.
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| crazymike 1269th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(6):unf" , posted Sat 3 Feb 16:02:
quote:
The sad thing is that nowadays, whenever a new fighting game hits the arcades, everybody goes whinning like "ZOMG, BROKEN AS HELL!!!11". I guess they think it sounds pro, or cool, or something. It's very annoying.
LOL and 6 months later, everybody "figures it out", and then say it is "perfect". Same story everytime.
Also I find it humorous how no matter how many new characters companies may try to put in, people still go back to the same "fireball, uppercut" characters. I thought Maki and Eagle were one of the most interesting additions in CvS2, but apparently their non-fireball style is not good enough to warrant seeing people use them alot.
[this message was edited by crazymike on Sat 3 Feb 16:06] |
| Iron D 2708th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):unf" , posted Sat 3 Feb 18:09
Heck, I can't even find these so-called "elite" players anymore...and I live in Southern California, US. There's supposed to be so many hardcore players of just about any fighting game out here, but I can't find them. I only see them talking smack on message boards these days.
But then again, it seems like tournaments and high level play are becoming console only to coincide with the decline of arcades.
I've never had that much of a problem with the hardcore players themselves, but the fact that companies feel like they can make a quick buck off of these people DOES annoy me. I have to admit that sometimes I get a real kick out of just sitting back and reading about all the minute details of a move like priority, frames, damage variation depending on whether or not it's a counter, etc. And, as dumb as they can be at times, tiers are fun to read and discuss as well.
This is all coming from someone who basically just plays fighting games by himself and isn't really all that good in versus play, so take it as you will....
Zelkin. Pimped.
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| Time Mage 2504th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(8):unf" , posted Sat 3 Feb 21:46
quote:
fighting games are fun when there is some one to play with, but playing a BROKEN fighting game with friends sucks beyond you imagination.
as RPGs require good story, good characters.
FPS good action, graphics.
Fighting games require to be FUN, and Balance.
Balance seems to be so hard specially with huge amount of characters.
But the balancing degree is also subjective. Sure, for hardcore Third Strike players, all is Chun Li, Yun and Ken, but for me and my group of friends, although we do know how to play quite well (we are in that "good players" group that defeats the crappy ones but loses to the "pros" Polly mentioned), the game is pretty much balanced, with the exception of Twelve and Sean, who just can't compete. And still, we usually play with random selection, so we use those two, too.
The same can be applied to GGXX(add the suffix you want). For tournament play, there might be 3-8 top characters, but in our group, there is no real distinction between the characters. Yes, I suck with May and play well with Faust, but my friend is a beast with May while not being so great with Faust.
So, I reiterate: Being able to understand and even use all the technical stuff like frames, situation-specific combos, and all those things I think is great and only adds to your enjoyment. Being a jerk, an elitist or a whiner because of it isn't.
I'm the leading man. You know what they say abut the leading man? He NEVER dies.
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| ZamIAm 1597th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(7):unf" , posted Sun 4 Feb 14:23
My primary problem is both the people abuse certain characters in top tiers and that the tier mindset seems to be what fuels some of the more mindless rehashes of various fighting games. The characters I enjoy tend to hover around the bottom tier barring one or two that is top tier but has to be played in a unique way. For example, Storm is my second favorite superhero and thus I enjoy using her in MvC2 but I can't wave dash to save my life and thus can't pull off those beastly semi infinite combos and thus "suck" since I have to play "normal". At the same time, it's hilarious to take out Akuma players with Twelve or Elena.
quote:
The sad thing is that nowadays, whenever a new fighting game hits the arcades, everybody goes whinning like "ZOMG, BROKEN AS HELL!!!11". I guess they think it sounds pro, or cool, or something. It's very annoying.
LOL and 6 months later, everybody "figures it out", and then say it is "perfect". Same story everytime.
Also I find it humorous how no matter how many new characters companies may try to put in, people still go back to the same "fireball, uppercut" characters. I thought Maki and Eagle were one of the most interesting additions in CvS2, but apparently their non-fireball style is not good enough to warrant seeing people use them alot.
Yet another reason why I miss Mindboggle years after it closed. I wonder if we ever did play against each other unknowingly (though it would have been on 3S or SvC).
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| Red Falcon 5753th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(9):unf" , posted Tue 6 Feb 12:51:
Hey, just because games have tiers (which they all do) doesn't mean you can't play them with your friends for fun; just don't expect everyone to be like-minded. As a member of the "tourney crowd", there are generally plenty of people who will use a variety of characters, especially in games where more characters are functional (GG, for example) but you have to deal with people who always play top tiers because frankly, most people are playing to win. Some games just have more characters who can actually work well then others. The tourney scene in the US is dominated by monetary prizes (this isn't as much the case in Japan, so you see better variety there, although top tier charas still win tournies) so people aren't going to pay a 20 dollar venue fee and then get up and use Sean or something (3S...) unless it's casuals. I'm a pretty decent player and in most games I play mid to low tier charas, but the best I've ever gotten was 2nd in a Zero 2 tourney long ago. People who play seriously most definately didn't "kill" fighters, they're the only reason they're still alive; as a side note, revisions of a game are a GOOD thing, not a bad thing; if people never revised games and just were always throwing in random ass new characters, there would probably be hardly a workeable game out there. We'd have a crapload of MvC2s with 50 charas and only about 6 who are actually playable, and nobody would care enough for the industry to remain interested (heck, the industry barely cares anymore as it is, because the casual gamer isn't interested in fighters) There, my poorly organized and random ramble is over. Just people take it seriously doesn't mean you aren't allowed to dick around with them, that's what half the fun is about and that is what casuals are for at tournies. Just don't expect the same gaming experience when people are playing for money. Also, just as an afterthought, to the scene's credit, MOST people are good sports and nice to hang around with; it really isn't fair to dismiss the whole scene as "jerks". I know of a few (no names shall be mentioned) but overall they're great people who just are serious about their hobby.
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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Tue 6 Feb 12:54] |
| Pollyanna 2162th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(10):unf" , posted Tue 6 Feb 16:12
quote:
People who play seriously most definately didn't "kill" fighters, they're the only reason they're still alive; as a side note, revisions of a game are a GOOD thing, not a bad thing; if people never revised games and just were always throwing in random ass new characters, there would probably be hardly a workeable game out there. We'd have a crapload of MvC2s with 50 charas and only about 6 who are actually playable, and nobody would care enough for the industry to remain interested (heck, the industry barely cares anymore as it is, because the casual gamer isn't interested in fighters)
I understand what you're saying, and I agree with everything except what I've quoted. MvsC2, miraculously, is still popular. I don't know how and I don't know why, but people still play it everywhere I go.
Upgrades instead of new games do turn off casual gamers. They turn me off, after a point. Guilty Gear has gone too far. I've lost interest now. Many many other Guilty Gear fans feel the same way. In the big picture, I'm sure "new" games would sell more than upgrades, the issue is that the cost that goes into making something completely new may viewed as too risky for developers. If they don't make a good game, then nobody will be interested in it at all.
Saying "nobody would care enough" implies that ONLY hard core people are interested in fighters and that they are only interested in balanced ones. If that were the case, then new, unbalanced fighters would never succeed on any level.
Personally, I like a mix of the two, but if I have the option of playing an upgrade with no new characters and few new moves vs a completely new game with only 6 "playable" characters, I'd rather take the 6, then be happy about the upgrade when they add 4 more.
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| Red Falcon 5754th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Re(10):unf" , posted Wed 7 Feb 12:52:
quote:
People who play seriously most definately didn't "kill" fighters, they're the only reason they're still alive; as a side note, revisions of a game are a GOOD thing, not a bad thing; if people never revised games and just were always throwing in random ass new characters, there would probably be hardly a workeable game out there. We'd have a crapload of MvC2s with 50 charas and only about 6 who are actually playable, and nobody would care enough for the industry to remain interested (heck, the industry barely cares anymore as it is, because the casual gamer isn't interested in fighters)
I understand what you're saying, and I agree with everything except what I've quoted. MvsC2, miraculously, is still popular. I don't know how and I don't know why, but people still play it everywhere I go.
Upgrades instead of new games do turn off casual gamers. They turn me off, after a point. Guilty Gear has gone too far. I've lost interest now. Many many other Guilty Gear fans feel the same way. In the big picture, I'm sure "new" games would sell more than upgrades, the issue is that the cost that goes into making something completely new may viewed as too risky for developers. If they don't make a good game, then nobody will be interested in it at all.
Saying "nobody would care enough" implies that ONLY hard core people are interested in fighters and that they are only interested in balanced ones. If that were the case, then new, unbalanced fighters would never succeed on any level.
Personally, I like a mix of the two, but if I have the option of playing an upgrade with no new characters and few new moves vs a completely new game with only 6 "playable" characters, I'd rather take the 6, then be happy about the upgrade when they add 4 more.
I also kind of understand what you're saying, but fact is MvC2 is nowhere near as popular as it once was (and I admit I let some personal bias against the game get in there.) All I can say is all the GG heads I know of are looking forward with "baited breath" to accent core and it seems to be rather popular in Japan at the moment, although I personally don't really care that much, I've rather lost interest in GG for various reasons.
Edit: And you're right, horribly broken fighters seem to be rather popular, or at least certain ones (hell, I'm fond of HnK myself...) Totally off topic, but is anyone else here still looking forward to checking out Battle Fantasia, or has all interest in it died and been replaced by interest in Arcana Heart for some cosmically cruel reason? >_<
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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Wed 7 Feb 13:05] |
| Pollyanna 2163th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Re(10):unf" , posted Wed 7 Feb 17:49
quote:
MvC2 is nowhere near as popular as it once was
It took TOO LONG for the popularity to dwindle. I used to become distressed when I saw that whatever time of the day it was, whatever day of the week it was, SOMEONE was playing the game. This went on for like, over 4 years after it came out. It's just NOT that great!
I'm not interested in Arcana Heart OR Battle Fantasia, though in Battle Fantasia's case, it's all aesthetics. It doesn't look good in stills or motion to me, but that doesn't mean I won't like it if I play it. It never came out, did it? It like went into beta, then went away?
As for HnK, although it's not especially well-balanced, you can use about half the characters, right? I mean, sure, that's only 5, but when you look at it as "half" that's not so bad. Still, the only time I see Shin win is against a junk character or another Shin.
I'm more turned off by the lack of wakeup game combined with the long, fairly easy combos. It's not just frustrating, it's boring to get nailed by the same, needlessly long combo over and over.
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| Dandy J
0th Post
New Customer
| "Re(1):Fighting games & the" , posted Thu 8 Feb 09:43
quote:
Was just commenting on gamefaqs boards the other day (or trolling, flaming, whatever) about GG:Accent Core being another rehash and not all that different to justify its release. Of course I got the shoryuken-esque monkies who swarmed around me saying "what, you don't notice that Ky's stun edge goes 10 degrees higher?" (okay that is a made-up exaggeration but you get the point).
Well, in this particular case, I heard that Slash wasn't even supposed to exist, and everything new in that was supposed to be for AC (plus everything new in AC), but Sega pressured them into releasing an upgrade before they were ready to.
quote:
No game will be perfect, it will ALWAYS be broken. I always find it an oxymoron that hardcore players say "this version will balance things out" yet also say "well these guys are top tier..." if a game was truly balanced, there would be no tiers, every character would have an equal chance of winning.
It's not really about balancing the game. Some people believe that but they've forgotten why the game is fun and why they play it. There are upgrades so the game can change, add new stuff so it says interesting and fresh.
quote:
Also I find it humorous how no matter how many new characters companies may try to put in, people still go back to the same "fireball, uppercut" characters.
Well that's just people sticking with what they know, and it really doesn't have much to do with "tier" players, either. Chun and Yun in 3rd Strike, Cammy, Sakura, Bison, Vega, Blanka, in cvs2, Gato, Oswald in KOFXI, every worthwhile character in mvc2 etc etc etc either don't have a fireball/uppercut game or aren't heavily reliant on it. I mean it's the same reason why people use the rocket launcher instead of the bio slime gun in UT or whatever; they already know how to use the fireball/anti-air game.
quote:
It is ultimately up to the player not the game.
If you play a game a lot with great players, eventually you will get to the point where you'll really see character deficiencies/advantages. That's just part of learning and playing a game a lot. But most people who talk about tiers really aren't even close to good enough (and don't play against people close to good enough) for it to matter, though they don't usually realize it. I know a few people that jump on bandwagons saying so-and-so character is broken or see something and say that character is too good, etc. Honestly both types of comments annoy me; either the "OMG that's too good so broken", or "it's the player not the game see this youtube video of Q winning?". I like to be at a happy medium. It's fine to recognize that some characters have advantages/weaknesses against other characters, it's fine to use top tiers, it's fine to play bottom tiers. Just don't complain. Don't complain that your character sucks or that other characters are too good. I mean do you think top Japanese Q players or whatever complain about Ken players? No, they use Q because they like playing him, not to make an excuse. If you really think a character sucks, then use another character. If you like the game itself, it won't bother you much. But sometimes character loyalty gets a little annoying, and I think does this person actually like playing this or do they just want to use this OMG SO SILLY crap character just for kicks? If they do, then why are they complaining? They should be having fun, because a fun attitude is what would cause you to do that in the first place.
Also about mvc2, there's a reason why that game has stayed alive for so long. It's fun. Even though the gameplay is really crazy and tough to learn, that game has everything you could ever want. You can rushdown, zone, lockdown, run/keepaway, chip, bait, whatever. You can do it all, and all that stuff is well represented in the game. Not only that, but the character ability is though the roof. Mvc2 is home to the most ridiculous "how do you block that?" rushdown, "how do you catch that?" runaway, "where can you go?" zoning/lockdown, and they all get equal time against each other.
So even if you don't like the game, at least recognize and appreciate why it's been around for so long. I mean tell me if you don't think these guys are having a lot of fun, 7 years after the damn game came out: http://www.denjin-video.com/video/mvc2/denjin-video.com-11-18-06-ffamvc2-ranbat-2-6.wmv
Anyway, I'm rambling so I'll cut it here. Also, this is my first post so, uh, hi guys.
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| Time Mage 2509th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Fighting games & the" , posted Thu 8 Feb 18:02
quote:
Anyway, I'm rambling so I'll cut it here. Also, this is my first post so, uh, hi guys.
Welcome to the cafe!
I fully agree with your post, so I don't have much to add, just an example: My main characters in Third Strike are Remy, Elena and Makoto. Out of those three, I'm much better with Remy or sometimes with Elena than with Makoto, even if she's considered way higher than the other two. I don't think I'm a bad player either, but unless you are at a really high level of competition, the differences between characters are not THAT important. Sure, I suffer against a Chun Li with meter, or against a good Ken, but it's manageable.
It's pronounced "nucular". Nu-cu-lar hehehe.
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"Re(1):unf" , posted Sat 3 Feb 06:55:
"Re(2):unf" , posted Sat 3 Feb 09:29
