Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy X-3. - http://www.mmcafe.com/ Forums


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deisied
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"Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy X-3." , posted Tue 9 May 06:50post reply

"They pulled a serious bait-and-switch on us. Sword-and-gun-wielding heroine who looks like Yuna, flipping her way around a high-tech, futuristic world."

Fantastic. And America will be watching the trailer half a year before they even get to touch XII.

Also, Nomura directing the Anti-FFXIII? What?

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6149412.html






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crazymike
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"Re(1):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Tue 9 May 07:45post reply

Frankly I am all Final Fantasied-out.

Kind of sucks FF VI remake is gonna be for the GBA instead of the DS where they could have done it in 3D like FF III remake.





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"Re(1):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Tue 9 May 08:24post reply

Screens for XIII, Versus XIII, and Agito XIII at the bottom.

http://www.gamespot.com/e3/e3live.html





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"Re(2):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Tue 9 May 08:43post reply

I... don't... get it. They're making 3 FFXIIIs? One is going to be like Kingdom Hearts?

...

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"Re(3):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Tue 9 May 09:02post reply

To me, it's just not Final Fantasy anymore. The whole gaming synergy of the different titles is KINDA interesting. But the fact that it's just the same ol' cyberpunkish designs Nomura churns out, I'm just not interested.





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"Re(3):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Tue 9 May 15:00post reply

quote:
I... don't... get it. They're making 3 FFXIIIs? One is going to be like Kingdom Hearts?

...

*pushes Ichijou button*



Uh huh.

http://www.the-magicbox.com/0605/game060508a.shtml





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"Re(2):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Tue 9 May 18:43post reply

quote:
Frankly I am all Final Fantasied-out.



Me too, but I really think this three-fold strategy *could* be interesting... that is, if they manage to build up an interesting enough world to sustain the three stories.

I've had it with Nomura's clonic designs (enough is enough, lol), but at least one of the games will have its music score composed by the ever-gorgeous Yoko Shimomura, and that sounds promising enough for me. Meanwhile, let's wait and see how the project develops...


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How the heck is Uematsu working on a FF again? I thought he had ran away for good!






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"Re(4):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Tue 9 May 18:56post reply

quote:
To me, it's just not Final Fantasy anymore.



I don't think there IS a Final Fantasy anymore. FF12 wasn't "FF" either.

I'll miss "final fantasy", but I have to make sure my sentimentality doesn't make me biased against the new games.

I AM irritated that we get several games with Nomura designs, though. I don't specifically dislike Nomura, but I don't want a double dose of him, either.





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"Re(5):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Tue 9 May 20:53post reply

quote:
To me, it's just not Final Fantasy anymore.


I don't think there IS a Final Fantasy anymore. FF12 wasn't "FF" either.



Well when I first saw the trailers for FFXII I was excited because I really felt like I was seeing FF Tactics and despite the gameplay changes, I still felt like I was looking at a real FF game. I'll always find Yoshida to be a true successor to Amano's style.

This however, sure as a game, it looks great and I'll probably play it. I just don't see it as "The latest Final Fantasy", but rather "The latest game from Nomura and Company"





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"Re(6):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Wed 10 May 00:32:post reply

I was actually pleasantly impressed with Yoshida in XII. Nose-less designs in Tactics and Vagrant were cute, but weren't as seriously good chara designs in my mind, but XII was different. Funny thing about Nomura designs is that while they don't really impress me from the start, I end up liking them once I play through the game. X and VIII had pretty sharp designs, despite not having the heavy gimmicks of VII's characters. But I can see that they hardly wow from the start, and deep down I still think that a major series like Final Fantasy worked better with the more distinctive, sophisticated style of Amano. Sort of like the classy atmosphere Kojima added to the Dracula/CV series.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Wed 10 May 00:34]

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"Re(7):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Wed 10 May 13:22post reply

I like Nomura, but his designs seem to be getting less and less distinct. Too many colors and segmented parts all over the place. That said, each final fantasy is supposed to be different, and there hasn't really been one with a dedicated future setting yet, so that might be pretty neat.

quote:
I still think that a major series like Final Fantasy worked better with the more distinctive, sophisticated style of Amano. Sort of like the classy atmosphere Kojima added to the Dracula/CV series.



I think Amano is long overdue for a comeback, now that the next gen systems are capable of doing his intricate designs justice in real time.





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"Re(7):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Wed 10 May 18:01post reply

I dunno if this means anything but this article claims Amano has a role in FFXIII.

http://www.ffinsider.net/news/1146243223.php





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"Re(8):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Wed 10 May 21:34post reply

The only disapointment yet, is that the vids only shows the "Yuna like" part, and not the "Versus" one...or I missed something.






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"Re(9):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Thu 11 May 16:54post reply

quote:
The only disapointment yet, is that the vids only shows the "Yuna like" part, and not the "Versus" one...or I missed something.



Well they're two different games, that'll get two different trailers, buddy. And since Versus is basically a "sequel" as much as it is another side, we probably won't be seeing it fleshed out for a little bit.





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"Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantas" , posted Thu 11 May 17:31post reply

I am sick of Nomura's character designs. SICK. They all look too darned alike. I swear that 99% of Nomura's females are indestinguishable outside of hairdo's and eye colors. Does this guy know how to make characters that don't look exactly the same?

I really miss Amano. His characters also had an element of similarity, but his style changed and evolved over the years, while Nomura is still drawing the same characters he was drawing a decade ago.





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"Re(5):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Thu 11 May 20:07post reply

quote:
To me, it's just not Final Fantasy anymore.

I don't think there IS a Final Fantasy anymore. FF12 wasn't "FF" either.

Hey!
[whiney]
I said that back then (FF12 hardly being a FF anymore) and I got "bashed"!

Finally someone who understands me!
[/whiney]
quote:

I'll miss "final fantasy", but I have to make sure my sentimentality doesn't make me biased against the new games.


Agreed.

I wish they'd drop the name, tho'... You know, like meaning "we're done with FF. Now we're going to start sth new." And, since there has to be merchandising somewhere: "And better!"

But they'll never be that stupid





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"Re(2):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final" , posted Fri 12 May 00:49:post reply

quote:

I really miss Amano.

Understandable. The cafe talks about this every so often...Amano is one of my favorite artists, and though his whispy, art nouveau-type work can also tend to look similar (see Celes-Garnet, Klulu-Tina, and so on) in the same way that Nomura's may, I think that in the technical and stylistic areas, Amano is just more sophisticated and distinctive. Nomura's designs may be sharper than many a designer from less major RPG companies (besides Game Arts, who always comes through), Amano is on a whole different, non-anime level.

Meanwhile, I'm very excited that to hear from RPGFan that even if Uematsu isn't the main soundtrack guy, they've got Hamauzu, who was simply amazing and easily stole the show in FFX. Plus, he made me get the soundtracks for SaGa Frontier II and Unlimited SaGa, even if I fear SaGA like the plague.

I'm actually kind of intrigued whether the Square staff will keep varying for new FF's, as it has between X, XII, and XIII now compared to the relatively fixed group there was earlier. Could keep things fresh. For all the hubub about new folk on FFXII and the lack of Sakaguchi, it totally slipped my mind that replacement director Itou was co-director for VI, the best in the series.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 12 May 00:49]

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"Re(6):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Fri 12 May 03:44post reply

quote:

[whiney]
I said that back then (FF12 hardly being a FF anymore) and I got "bashed"!

Finally someone who understands me!
[/whiney]



I had to finish FF12 before I realized this. Well, maybe I was partway through. Visually, it was evident from the beginning, like "this is Vagrant Story 2." I'm talking visually and thematically and stuff, though. Not gameplay.

My biggest problem with FF12 in the end is that they "fixed the wrong problem." Like...in most FF game random encounters don't take any thought. You can win the fights without even looking at the screen. So now you have gambits to do things for you. There's no reason to plug in the same command over and over, and it's fun to set up little tactics for your people.

BUT PRESSING BUTTONS ISN'T THE PROBLEM! The problem is that the fights are boring to begin with! The solution is to make more interesting fights, not make the boring fights easier to tolerate!

There's a period, about 2/3-3/4 through the game where at least 75% of the enemies start with a status buff on them and/or hit you with 4-6 status ailments at once. Is that supposed to be a good idea? Does that add depth!? Having to dispell them and yourself, then buff yourself again every 2 minutes!?

But the game ended STRONG. It had like...8 boss fights...good ones. So my final verdict was "beautiful, with wasted potential."

Speaking of beautiful, Yoshida is my king. I like Amano's designs, and I'd love to see them represented with a visually stunning new FF, but Yoshida can take his place and I'll never complain. He has no place in the new scifi FF world, though.





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"Re(7):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Fri 12 May 17:32post reply

Well IMO, I would take the FFXIII as solid info right now... Remember, each time a FF open a new support (FF7 PSX, FFX PS2) they are more or less midified from their 1st apperence.

-The 1st FF7 pics we did have was a N64 version who was looking like a FF6 edit, and when the game was finaly shown on PSX, it was really something else.

-For FFX it was less important, but once again the 1st trailer did show a black haired tidus (it was better!) with some different clothes runing in a free 3D world and entering a temple, booth place that wasn't in the game...who wasn't free in the map as well...Even a 2nd trailer did show Leviathan as a classical summon, who never appear in the game.

Fate? curse? or just time needed? I'm deffinitely sure taht more or less thing will change at the next TGS and at the E3 2007...






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"Re(8):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Fri 12 May 23:32post reply

quote:

-The 1st FF7 pics we did have was a N64 version who was looking like a FF6 edit, and when the game was finaly shown on PSX, it was really something else.



That was never meant to be FF7, it was deliberately FF6 characters.





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"Re(9):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantasy" , posted Sat 13 May 00:53post reply

quote:

That was never meant to be FF7, it was deliberately FF6 characters.

True, it was just a tech demo. On the other hand, remember the very first pictures of VII that were released? (In the US, the venerable Game Players magazine had them.) They turned out to be fairly different battle models, along with camera control.





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"Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final Fantas" , posted Sat 13 May 07:50post reply

I used to understand this a little when everyone was kinda worked up about Tifa/Rinoa/Garnet/Yuna all being CLEARLY TEH SAME CHARACTER because they were all brunettes. I mean, 4 leading ladies with vaguely shoulder length brown hair in a row IS a little lame, but...I can't say I really understand people's claims that Nomura's designs "all look the same". Does a clearly identifiable style and habit permeate his characters? Of course, that's what makes it a style. But, are characters anywhere near unidentifiable? I don't think so.

Tifa doesn't look like Dominique doesn't look like Lulu doesn't look like Selphie doesn't look like this girl doesn't really look like anybody. Actually, people seem to say FFXIII's girl looks like somebody else every time they say it. I'm almost convinced I have a Nomura translator implanted into my eye and everyone else who sees his work sees three crayon scribbles in slightly different degrees of closeness to each other. A few days ago I saw a thread demanding that this new female character looks exactly like Cloud and Squall. I don't understand. If anything, I'd say she looks like sort of an anime-ish Ashe that's softer in face, but harder in expression, and wears a remix of FFX-2 Yuna's outfit. But to me that's still more just the air she gives off more than her being pumped right out of the same factory or anything.

Another thing too. Whether Nomura's designs stay similar or not, they're expressed differently as per the art direction of all these games anyway. The way designs are translated to the game in FFVII are way different than Kingdom Hearts, and then this game. That puts even more distance between them. Each game's characters at least look like they come from that game.

Anyway, people sure like to yell about Nomura. Even before FFIX people were already yelling about his designs, and he'd barely had chance to sink in yet. I don't adore the guy or anything, and his influences on game design are questionable enough in being a whole 'nother reason to yell about him. But for the mere sake of "I THINK I SAW THAT CLUMP OF HAIR ON ANOTHER CHARACTER!!!!", I don't think that's good enough reason to demand he needs to fall off the planet and never apply himself to a game again.





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"Re(2):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final" , posted Sat 13 May 11:49post reply

I think this is a good post in Nomura's favor. I never really saw the similarity in his characters with the women (and Garnet wasn't even his chara, and she was supposed to have blonde hair anyway in Amano's sketches). VIII's characters were VERY different from VII because of the way the art direction went, I agree (much more mature designs), though I do see Tidus channelling quite a bit of Squall (that is to say, normal, longish contemporary Japanese-style hair). But the characters certainly don't look identical to me, either.

My thought is more that while Nomura's designs are good anime-styled works, more distinctive artists like Amano (and now, Yoshida) give a classier feel than the average RPG production. Final Fantasy deserves something than leaves a deeper impression.





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"Re(3):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final" , posted Sat 13 May 15:12:post reply

quote:

My thought is more that while Nomura's designs are good anime-styled works, more distinctive artists like Amano (and now, Yoshida) give a classier feel than the average RPG production. Final Fantasy deserves something than leaves a deeper impression.



I totally agree.

And I don't dislike Nomura as a character designer/director (I think he does a -mostly- good job with KH, and I haven't especially disliked his designs in anything), but he's a shoddy illustrator and his stuff just satisfies. It doesn't challenge anything and it doesn't impress.

All his characters in FF7 had like...the same face, but that didn't show in the game and their designs have been updated now, so no harm done. I do feel that the characters in his illustrations, even if their designs are solid, are lacking life and distinguishing/interesting facial characteristics. This isn't a Nomura thing as much as a general "anime art" problem with many artists.

As for his stuff looking the same across games...since every FF has such a drastically different visual style, and he didn't work on 9 and 12, are people just comparing his 7, 8 and 10 stuff? I think the issue here is that the main guy and girl in all the recent FFs (regardless of if Nomura worked on them or not) have a sort of similar look. Not that they look ALIKE, but they're the same TYPE of character. So you get "another prettyboy with stylish, longish hair."

edit:spelling.





[this message was edited by Pollyanna on Sat 13 May 19:37]

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"Re(4):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final" , posted Sat 13 May 15:49post reply

quote:

My thought is more that while Nomura's designs are good anime-styled works, more distinctive artists like Amano (and now, Yoshida) give a classier feel than the average RPG production. Final Fantasy deserves something than leaves a deeper impression.


Thirded.





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"Re(5):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final" , posted Sat 13 May 19:35post reply

The problem with Nomura isn't, in my opinion, tht his designs are similar. They are similar in a way, as deisied said, mostly because they share the same style. However, that's no to blame, because most artists have a very distinguishable style.
What I think makes Nomura's desings worse than others is because they reek JPop from all their angles. And personally, the JPop look may look curious once, maybe twice, but having the entire JPop population adapted to his designs is horrible and vulgar, thus lacking the style Pollyanna mentioned.





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"Re(6):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final" , posted Sun 14 May 02:35:post reply

Yeah, the J-pop analysis is an interesting one, and of course it got worse with X-2, which thankfully I've never played. While his stuff is a step above most anime-styled chara designs, FF can and should do better, since out of the countless artists with anime styles, I think that only Game Arts games tend to stick out in my mind as truly inspired anime designs, what with the illustrator for Grandia II and of course Kubooka for Lunar.





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[this message was edited by Maou on Sun 14 May 02:36]

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"Re(7):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final" , posted Sun 14 May 10:17post reply

On the subject of Amano, I don't think using his art was ever a question of system capability. It's more a problem of presentation and creativity.

A simple realistic style like Nomura allows them to pour numerous smaller details into the visuals. If you look at Amano's art, it's too surreal for any kind of visual medium that isn't based in 2 dimensions. His lines don't connect, his characters don't emote, his proportions mutate wildly between perspectives and his general composition is all bright colors.

I'm not saying it's bad - in fact I love his artwork - but in order for it to be accessible in a way that will be universally accepted, a huge amount of work will be required of Square Enix, as the console itself can only do so much no matter how powerful it is. That's not to say it can't be done, it's just that with all the work and budget required I don't think they'd be willing to risk producing something so visually esoteric.





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"Re(8):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final" , posted Sun 14 May 19:25post reply

quote:
I'm not saying it's bad - in fact I love his artwork - but in order for it to be accessible in a way that will be universally accepted, a huge amount of work will be required of Square Enix, as the console itself can only do so much no matter how powerful it is. That's not to say it can't be done, it's just that with all the work and budget required I don't think they'd be willing to risk producing something so visually esoteric.


Well, look at the PSX FFVI cinemas: They're done with Amano style, andd quite successfully, in my opinion. And since the new generation of consoles can make graphics of that quality or even better, returning to Amano wouldn't be so impossible.





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"Re(9):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final" , posted Sun 14 May 20:29post reply

quote:

Well, look at the PSX FFVI cinemas: They're done with Amano style, andd quite successfully, in my opinion. And since the new generation of consoles can make graphics of that quality or even better, returning to Amano wouldn't be so impossible.



I dunno, I found those to be quite hideous. They were OK for the time, I guess. It shows that it's theoretically possible, but the overall look was too "glossy". I don't know that Amano style agrees with FMV unless it has crazy filters and effects on it.

If they were to try to flesh out Amano's designs in a game, Amano would have to flesh out his designs first. His FF work is good from a design perspective, but as far as his art goes, many of his illustrations are rendered in much more detail. I think if he were to design characters with the intent of having them turned into renders, they could create something that looked really outstanding.

Of course, the game would have to be RICH with textures. Textures textures textures. It couldn't just be "Amano" in terms of characters. If they wanted to make a good product, they'd have to make the world and monsters look "Amano", too (that was one of the best things about the 2D FFs, to me...as there's no "Nomura World" look).

Since Amano's a fancy pants fine artist now, I don't know if he'd be up for it. I still think his best work is from Gatchaman.





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"Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a. Final" , posted Sun 14 May 20:46post reply

quote:
I dunno, I found those to be quite hideous. They were OK for the time, I guess.



Nah, I thought it was pretty damn awful even at the time, both artistically and even as far as CG quality went. I don't really know what they were thinking with that stuff, but I wouldn't be able to call it "Amano" without thinking somebody should be offended.





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"Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Mon 15 May 15:44post reply

All of this reminded me of the gallery of theFF gallery Amano has posted up these days. It's just so much classier. I also always enjoyed his re-imaginings of Nomura's characters for VII, VIII, and X. His more ephemeral style works especially well for X's Asian-style designs, in my opinion. The gallery even has some pictures that for some odd reason aren't in the Digicube FFIX and X art collections, though Flash is annoying and I don't think it can save images. Enjoyable, at any rate.





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"Re(3):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Mon 15 May 19:39post reply

I'm sticking with my argument that Nomura's designs are way too similar. It's quite possible to have a style without characters looking almost exactly the same.

Also, why does Nomura have so many shoulder length, brunette dark eyed female leads? Maybe if he put a little variety in his characters, part of his problem would be fixed. And seeing a FFXIII demo with yet ANOTHER character fitting this description...it's a bit much.

And let's not forget the guy's lack of range of emotion. It's a little difficult to describe, but his character's tend to be happy or pissed. Nowhere in between, and nowhere outside that range either.

I used to like Nomura, especially in the days of FFVII and VIII. But now it's just gotten old.





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"Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Mon 15 May 19:51:post reply

quote:
It's quite possible to have a style without characters looking almost exactly the same.


What characters look almost exactly the same?

quote:
Also, why does Nomura have so many shoulder length, brunette dark eyed female leads?


In a way I almost think it's more interesting to prove how different characters can be within the bounds of realistic similarity than it is to make every new character have a new, different pastel color of hair just to set them apart right from the get go. Instant anime candy-coated recognizability isn't an immediately more respectable way to go. I mean, maybe he has so many of those characters because there are like 2 billion of them in existence, and it's actually not that weird. Either way, the most notable similarity left at this point is FFVII:AC Tifa and Rinoa. None of the rest of them actually look particularly similar at all. If anything though, FFVII:AC gave Tifa a realistic enough face that you could probably distinguish her easily enough from someone else with the same damn outfit if you had to. When you're working with FFVII's copy-paste faces and in-game pixellation, that's kind of a different story.

quote:
And seeing a FFXIII demo with yet ANOTHER character fitting this description...it's a bit much.


She doesn't fit the description. She has reddish hair and blue eyes, mirroring the Final Fantasy Versus XIII lead's blue hair and red eyes. That, and her hair doesn't really even go past her ears.

quote:
And let's not forget the guy's lack of range of emotion. It's a little difficult to describe, but his character's tend to be happy or pissed. Nowhere in between, and nowhere outside that range either.


Eh. That's more on the fault of immature writing than his designs themselves.





[this message was edited by deisied on Mon 15 May 20:06]

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"Re(5):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Tue 16 May 16:32post reply

quote:

What characters look almost exactly the same?


Well geez, how about all of his human males and females? For the most part, all you have is differences in eye color, hair color, and hair length. There's not much differences in the bodies even. I'm no professional artist or anything, but I've seen artists who can actually make their characters distinctive. Unfortunately, such a thing seems to be rare.


quote:
I mean, maybe he has so many of those characters because there are like 2 billion of them in existence, and it's actually not that weird.


Too bad FF isn't set in the real world. Besides, you'd think that when somebody works on the same videogame franchise, they would try to actually make the characters in each game very distinctive from characters in past games. Especially when, for the most part, the FF games are each in a seperate reality.


quote:
She doesn't fit the description. She has reddish hair and blue eyes, mirroring the Final Fantasy Versus XIII lead's blue hair and red eyes. That, and her hair doesn't really even go past her ears.



See? The only differences are the hair color, length, and eye color. And despite these differences I still got that deja vu feeling.





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"Re(6):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Tue 16 May 17:20post reply

quote:

Well geez, how about all of his human males and females? For the most part, all you have is differences in eye color, hair color, and hair length.



Don't you think it's normal? It's the same guy drawing those characters. How many different manga-ka, for example, draw completely different characters in their different stories? Similarities without being exactly the same from one character to another are kinda their signature. An artist does have similarities in his work especially when drawing human characters.

quote:

See? The only differences are the hair color, length, and eye color. And despite these differences I still got that deja vu feeling.



Of course, we all have that deja vu feeling. Like I said, you open a manga of one manga-ka and then you open another manga with a different title of the very same manga-ka, you know what kind of drawings will be in there. But you aren't disappointed, right? Because the story is different and that's what we want from the same manga-ka.





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"Re(6):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Tue 16 May 17:42post reply

quote:
Well geez, how about all of his human males and females?


Awesome, buddy. Would've been cool if you managed to give an example instead of just basically saying "I WAS RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE. LOL." At least respond if you're gonna waste time responding.

quote:
Besides, you'd think that when somebody works on the same videogame franchise, they would try to actually make the characters in each game very distinctive from characters in past games.


You didn't listen too much to what I said. If more effort is put into just making sure whatever they're doing now is as different as possible to what they were doing before, they probably won't be paying too much attention to what they're doing right now. That's certainly not immediately the best way to go. Making a design just fit the idea of the character isn't really the worst thing that can happen, whether that character idea manages to fit within the concept of another human with brown hair or not.

I mean, I'm not really sure what you want here. Rinoa's a human female with brown hair. That doesn't make her a clone. Was she supposed to have antlers? Was she supposed to be 8 feet tall? There's only so much you can do within context and style before you're just trying to effing hard. Then again, according to you, you couldn't pick Quistis out of a line-up of eight Rinoas. I guess it doesn't matter much what they did.


quote:
See? The only differences are the hair color, length, and eye color. And despite these differences I still got that deja vu feeling.


No...those aren't the only differences. I only listed the differeces regarding your standard of similarity. Thing is, I don't think you're even trying very hard here. It seems to me more like you just like having this opinion and will go ahead and say whatever thing fits easily into that idea and leave it at that. Have fun with that, I guess.





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"Re(7):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Tue 16 May 23:59post reply

I wouldn't get too mad about it. I think at any rate the thing that makes people find all the designs similar is the facial features, or lack thereof, as Polly pointed out. Maybe it's just that Nomura put more attention, for better or for worse, on clothing, but that his rather simple faces don't really stand out one way or the other, and tend to blend together in people's minds.





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"Re(7):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Wed 17 May 12:21:post reply

quote:
Awesome, buddy. Would've been cool if you managed to give an example instead of just basically saying "I WAS RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE. LOL."


What do you want me to do, Deisied? Go hunt down Nomura pictures and put them up for pic by pic comparisons? I'm too lazy for that. Besides, you've made it clear that you've seen the art, so you should know what I'm talking about.

quote:
At least respond if you're gonna waste time responding.


Er...what?

quote:
You didn't listen too much to what I said. If more effort is put into just making sure whatever they're doing now is as different as possible to what they were doing before, they probably won't be paying too much attention to what they're doing right now. That's certainly not immediately the best way to go. Making a design just fit the idea of the character isn't really the worst thing that can happen, whether that character idea manages to fit within the concept of another human with brown hair or not.


You're making it sound like it takes a college degree to design characters who aren't similar. I'm no artist, but I've seen it done before. It's a little thing called "innovation". You can create characters who are unique from each other, or you can keep spitting out what is essentially the same characters. I feel that Nomura is doing the latter.

quote:
I mean, I'm not really sure what you want here. Rinoa's a human female with brown hair. That doesn't make her a clone. Was she supposed to have antlers? Was she supposed to be 8 feet tall?


How about making different facial structures? Different brows? Cheeks? Jaws? Noses? Do you get the point?

quote:
There's only so much you can do within context and style before you're just trying to effing hard. Then again, according to you, you couldn't pick Quistis out of a line-up of eight Rinoas. I guess it doesn't matter much what they did.


Picking Quistis out of a bunch of Rinoas wouldn't be a problem. Just pick the blonde. Now, picking Quistis (without her glasses) out of a bunch of Aya Breas on the other hand...


quote:
No...those aren't the only differences. I only listed the differeces regarding your standard of similarity. Thing is, I don't think you're even trying very hard here. It seems to me more like you just like having this opinion and will go ahead and say whatever thing fits easily into that idea and leave it at that. Have fun with that, I guess.



I could easily say the same about you, with your "it's Nomura's style!" excuse. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe having characters who look nearly identical is just that much more common in manga and anime. I don't honestly have too much experience with either, but the name "Akira Toriyama" does come to mind...

Edit: Scratch that. I can think of an anime style artist who can make their characters look distinct: the person who did the art for the first two SF3s and the Capcom art for CvS and CvS2. I can't even remember the name right now, but this artist made Hibiki and Mai and Yuri not look like triplets, and they're all Asians with long hair. Even Ken and Ryo looked different. So being anime style wouldn't be a valid excuse for Nomura's character designs either...





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[this message was edited by Iron D on Wed 17 May 12:38]

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"Re(8):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Fri 19 May 02:18post reply

Nomura





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"Re(9):Re(10):Re(10):Hermaphrodites ahoy" , posted Fri 19 May 03:02post reply

quote:
Nomura



There are about 100 things I could say about this (most of them about #12), but it could be a trap!





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"Re(7):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Fri 19 May 03:40post reply

quote:

It's the same guy drawing those characters. How many different manga-ka, for example, draw completely different characters in their different stories? Similarities without being exactly the same from one character to another are kinda their signature. An artist does have similarities in his work especially when drawing human characters.



I admit you have a point, but I'm just tired of Nomura's style. Artists usually improve, or at least evolve throughout the years... Nomura's stuff was somewhat cool back in late 90s, but now he's become just another random guy making flashy designs for a videogame.






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"Re(8):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Sat 20 May 05:25post reply

I don't really see the problem in the FF13 designs, so far. That said, I don't understand what Square's thinking by his incredibly strong presence in the company over the last several years.
Has any other game company so popular relied so heavily on one person in the art department?

They obviously have the money to get anyone they want. My theory! Nomura is some incredible personality they can't bear to lose. He's the office prankster. Puts their staplers in the fridge overnight. Rearranges furniture when nobody's looking. Tells good racial jokes. That kook.





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"Re(9):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Sun 21 May 13:13post reply

Final Fantasy XIII will not have online functions
Each episode will have different and independent characters, the stories also takes place in different times in history
The only things in common for the 3 titles are Chocobos, Moggles, magic and myths around the Crystals
The Legend of the Crystals is the central theme of the 3 games
The latin word "Versus" in Final Fantasy Versus XIII means the change of a direction
The latin word "Agito" in Final Fantasy XIII Agito means stimulus or moving violently, this game will have action elements implemented in the system


http://www.the-magicbox.com/0605/game060517a.shtml





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"Re(9):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Sun 21 May 13:17post reply

quote:
I don't really see the problem in the FF13 designs, so far. That said, I don't understand what Square's thinking by his incredibly strong presence in the company over the last several years.
Has any other game company so popular relied so heavily on one person in the art department?



This is actually not too far from what Falcoon's doing to SNK-Playmore, actually. ::Shudder::





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"Re(8):Re(10):Re(10):Final Fantasy XIII a.k.a." , posted Mon 22 May 01:25:post reply

quote:
How about making different facial structures? Different brows? Cheeks? Jaws? Noses? Do you get the point?



That new girl in FFXIII has a much different jaw line than any other female that Nomura has drawn. And she looks like she has a much higher nose bridge than any past girls either.
The shape of her eye's differ quite a bit from Yuna, Tifa, etc





[this message was edited by Saiki on Mon 22 May 02:21]

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"My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Thu 25 May 20:22post reply

Square Enix revealed that there will be a total of 6 projects surrounding the Final Fantasy XIII theme Fabula Nova Crystallis. So far 3 titles have been announced: Final Fantasy XIII, Final Fantasy Versus III and Final Fantasy XIII Agito. Furthermore, Square Enix views both Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy XIII as 20-year projects, both franchises will continue to expand and be remembered by players.





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"Re(1):My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Thu 25 May 20:35post reply

quote:
Square Enix revealed that there will be a total of 6 projects surrounding the Final Fantasy XIII theme Fabula Nova Crystallis. So far 3 titles have been announced: Final Fantasy XIII, Final Fantasy Versus III and Final Fantasy XIII Agito. Furthermore, Square Enix views both Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy XIII as 20-year projects, both franchises will continue to expand and be remembered by players.


The Horror!

I don't care much about FFXIII for now, but...

They'll be making sequels and prequels for FFVII till 2017?!



Ermm.... BTW, source, please? ^_^





Time for some long due Samus Aran love...

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"Re(2):My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Thu 25 May 21:09post reply

quote:
Square Enix revealed that there will be a total of 6 projects surrounding the Final Fantasy XIII theme Fabula Nova Crystallis. So far 3 titles have been announced: Final Fantasy XIII, Final Fantasy Versus III and Final Fantasy XIII Agito. Furthermore, Square Enix views both Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy XIII as 20-year projects, both franchises will continue to expand and be remembered by players.



Assuming they don't mean it's 6 projects over the span of 20 years, I'm sure at least two of the other three are either PSP, DS or mobile phone games. Maybe a Wii project too. I can't see them developing more than 2 FFXIII games for PS3 though. That'd be just beyond ridiculous.





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"Re(2):My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Thu 25 May 21:09post reply

quote:

Ermm.... BTW, source, please? ^_^



The MagicBox, I'm afraid...





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"Re(3):My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Thu 25 May 21:45post reply

quote:

Ermm.... BTW, source, please? ^_^


The MagicBox, I'm afraid...


Oh, I see.





Time for some long due Samus Aran love...

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"Re(4):My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Thu 25 May 22:44post reply

Uwah!! That's scary!

I'm tired of SquarEnix trying to make profit of FFVII over and over again as if it was the cold cash cow.

Damn SquarEnix, focus on important projects like Valkyrie Profile Silmeria and stop exploiting Cloud and company. I'm not sure if I can tolerate another "Final Fantasy VII : ..."

I'm afraid SquarEnix will finally make a Cave's Pink Sweets-like video featuring Tifa and Aeris cosplayers with a softcore sexual innuendo and a real-life Sephirot posing and laughing. *shivers*

......and 6 projects around FFXIII??? Come on gimme a break. In my opinion, it's pushing the fans of the saga a little too much.

The only funny thing I find is that "agito" sounds kinda silly when added to the FFXIII name, taking into account it has sort of the spanish meaning.






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"Re(4):My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Fri 26 May 02:43post reply

quote:

Ermm.... BTW, source, please? ^_^


The MagicBox, I'm afraid...

Oh, I see.



Yeah. Confirmed'd though. The six titles thing just isn't nearly as set in stone as magicbox made it sound. It's still basically the same prospect though.

Hey. At least Square can't be called the Final Fantasy company anymore! Now they're the Final Fantasy VII and XIII company. Funtastic.





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"Re(5):My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Fri 26 May 03:19post reply

Just to point out : Squenix officially denied working on any PS3 remake of FF7.





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"Re(6):My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Fri 26 May 03:41post reply

quote:
Just to point out : Squenix officially denied working on any PS3 remake of FF7.



Well yeah. But with a 20 year vision for the Compilation of FF7 in mind, what's to stop them from getting started on it really? I've lost most of my hope for them not making it now.





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"Re(7):My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Fri 26 May 04:44post reply

quote:
Well yeah. But with a 20 year vision for the Compilation of FF7 in mind, what's to stop them from getting started on it really? I've lost most of my hope for them not making it now.


The smae thing that stops Capcom from doing more fighting games, SNK fro giving a sequel to Last Blade, Taito from creating a sequel to G-Darius or Sega from creating anymore good games : the fact they don't do everything the rumors say they do.





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"Re(8):My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Fri 26 May 04:51:post reply

quote:
The smae thing that stops Capcom from doing more fighting games, SNK fro giving a sequel to Last Blade, Taito from creating a sequel to G-Darius or Sega from creating anymore good games : the fact they don't do everything the rumors say they do.



It's Square though. And I'm not even usually heading up the Cynic's Bandwagon. This isn't MotW2, it's Final Fantasy VII.

Anyway, like I said, I don't even want the remake.

Edit: Another thing: Capcom, SNK, Taito, and Sega don't really have the staff to be making any of those games you mentioned. Pretty much all those guys got abandoned. Square still has its precious Nomura, and a boner for FFVII to match the one the fans have.

Side Note: MotW2 probably wasn't the best example on my part. Falcoon revealed the game to have been completed to about 80% in an interview a while back. It just wasn't wrapped up and released.





[this message was edited by deisied on Fri 26 May 04:57]

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"Re(6):My God. Take a quick glance at this." , posted Fri 26 May 06:18post reply

In case someone didn't hear before, they've stated in several interviews that they would like to do a remake of FFVII, but they didn't have a time planned for it in part because they were busy with other things right now (a fact that doesn't seem like it'll change anytime soon)





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"remake or not remake?" , posted Fri 26 May 09:13post reply

You know, if you really think about it, FF VII is one of those games who SCREAMS for a remake. One of those games you remember with certain degree of tenderness and nostalgy, but you wouldn't dare to touch again, because you know for sure such a reckless action would ruin that good old memories.

FFVII has not aged well...I for one would be delighted to play a FFVII version whose character models wouldn't look as colored bricks, the music wouldn't sound as friggin' NES midis and, hopefully, with a deeper development of certain characters and a clearer exposition of certain events. Oh, and with an intelligible translation, of course. But maybe it's just me...






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"Re(1):remake or not remake?" , posted Fri 26 May 09:19post reply

It's not that an ideal prospect of a remake doesn't appeal to me, it's that a realistic prospect of a remake doesn't. It's a tough situation.





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"Re(2):remake or not remake?" , posted Fri 26 May 15:21:post reply

quote:
It's not that an ideal prospect of a remake doesn't appeal to me, it's that a realistic prospect of a remake doesn't.


-deisied-

'Nuff said.

----------
Now, a question: Since I don't really care about FFXIII, for now, should I believe IGN's version of the news, where FF7 was brought up only as an example of what they're planning to do with 13, or TMB's version, where FF7 (or rather, "FF Compilation") was also being worked on?
I know IGN's more reliable, but I just wanna make sure...

EDIT:
Teh chart

So it seems it's definitely IGN's version...

What I can gather, from the one up in the right and counter-clockwise:
- Game for PSP takes place 6 years before: Crisis Core
- Character goods (meh)
- Game for cell-phones that takes place from 6 years before to FF7: Before Crisis
- Game for PS2, 3 years after: Dirge of Cerberus
- Movie that takes place 2 years after: Advent Children
- ?
- More character goods (more meh)





Time for some long due Samus Aran love...

"It's you know like when you die and you can't quite believe it"
An undead friend.

[this message was edited by Sensenic on Fri 26 May 16:49]

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"Re(3):remake or not remake?" , posted Fri 26 May 16:56post reply

You know what they should do? Remake FFVII for the N64.





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"Re(4):remake or not remake?" , posted Sat 27 May 00:07post reply

quote:
You know what they should do? Remake FFVII for the N64.



I would prefer it for SNES in glorious 2D sprites.






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"Re(1):remake or not remake?" , posted Sat 27 May 01:10post reply

quote:
You know, if you really think about it, FF VII is one of those games who SCREAMS for a remake. One of those games you remember with certain degree of tenderness and nostalgy, but you wouldn't dare to touch again, because you know for sure such a reckless action would ruin that good old memories.




Personally I honestly do not think it needs a remake. I like FF7 as much as any other fan would but not beyond the point, however i'll be glad to take flames on this coming statement. I simply feel that it really isn't necessary and it is just an everyday rpg. I don't see how fans try to make it out as a complex as freud or one of Socrates quotes in terms of story or just all around RPG. It feels just too simple.

Just the typical megalomaniac trying to do something with the world. Taking an example of Aeris's death in the story as tragic in gaming history really kind of befuddles me more or less makes me think of a desperate to catch attention for the game. I mean hell if you want to see tragic look at FF4 people died left and right thats funny in a.. akward sickening way but anyways.

I guess maybe at the prime during that time period when FF7 was out the graphics pretty much did the selling for the game which retroactively cancels my statement right there and will do the same for the remake of FF7 as well. Am I judging FF7 to harshly or should I look at it from another perspective that allows FF7 to be deemable as a remake besides the obvious with all the attention its getting and obvious simplicity of it?






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"Re(2):remake or not remake?" , posted Sat 27 May 02:52:post reply

I'm not surprised, and you needn't take flames for that. FFVII is a throughly middle-class Final Fantasy (which still is a good deal better than many an RPG), but certainly not the best or most cohesive. It's a fine game, but it doesn't really beg for a remake any more than Final Fantasy V did since it basically had ugly FFIV sprites instead of VI's amazing ones. It can have its re-release just like FFI-VI have so far, on a portable or in a lesser-scale project. It's a decent story (in Japanese, anyway), but on a story and gameplay level, not urgently more important than any other older RPG.

It's just that it was so many newcomers' first time they ever bothered to test their brains on an RPG once they saw (then-) flashy graphics. Hearing pop culture people like Gackt demand a remake to do the game justice just show a pretty shallow involvment with RPG's, I expect.





人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は...

[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 27 May 02:54]

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"Re(3):remake or not remake?" , posted Sat 27 May 03:47post reply

quote:
It's just that it was so many newcomers' first time they ever bothered to test their brains on an RPG once they saw (then-) flashy graphics. Hearing pop culture people like Gackt demand a remake to do the game justice just show a pretty shallow involvment with RPG's, I expect.


That is exactly why FFVII should be re-made. What set FFVII apart from any RPG's that came before it was that it was the first title to be pushed out of the niche category it was in and to become a hit with Western audiences. I can still remember when I saw a life sized cardboard cut-out of Cloud in the middle of a grocery store as part of a Pepsi promotion. At that point I realized that the perception of videogames in the US had taken a shift. The cultural saturation and mainstream success of FFVII is what it's actual legacy is. Complaints that there are RPG's that have more robust or complicated plots or game engines than FFVII are not only subjective but are missing the point.





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"Re(4):remake or not remake?" , posted Sat 27 May 19:24post reply

To me it's obvious they shouldn't bother with a remake.

The reason FFVII was marketable was originally because it was the first of the series to ever be presented in 3D, giving it mainstream marketable visual depth. Every aspect of it was enhanced by this fact.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to recapture that feeling with a remake. Those who would play it for the first time will just look at it as another new game that offers nothing better than what FFXIII can offer. Those who play it because they "loved" the original FFVII will look at it as an incremental update to something they were already too familiar with.

We have been mired in the same mode of presentation for the last 10 years. Until the market changes, remakes of 3D games with movie-like presentation into prettier 3D games with movie-like presentation are pretty much guaranteed to underwhelm a great number of people.