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| Pollyanna 1549th Post
 
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
    
    
    
    
|  "Re(6):Tales of the Tempest" , posted Tue 13 Dec 06:01
quote:
Honestly, I've never seen the appeal of Tales games. What is it? Is it the battle system? The storylines never seem too exciting. The characters, maybe? Someone explain why there are so many, released about six months apart, please.
OK...well, I'm the sort of Tales pseudo fan that bitches about the series, but plays every game. It's all about the battle system for me.
The characters, on the whole, are irritating anime stereotypes. A lot of people like characters like this...and in a way, I can't fault them. I like just about any ojousama character, even if she's a stereotype and Tales games are good at throwing just the right stereotypes at you. There are very few characters I -really- like in Tales games, though many of them are at least enjoyable.
If you're the type of person who can watch a lot of anime, you're the type of person who will probably like many of the Tales characters.
I went back and played more Tales of Rebirth, which has a cast of mostly unlikable characters, but THE best battle system I've ever encountered. The sprites are also beautiful.
The stories range from tolerable (ToS) to embarrassing (ToD2)...so I don't see the appeal there. ToP had its moments, I guess.
Oh, and the cutscenes. They're gorgeous. Absolutely beautiful.
I have high hopes for Tales of the Abyss, which looks nice, has great animation in the battles and the best-looking cast of characters I've seen in a Tales game.
As for releases...well, they ARE too frequent, but I don't think they hurt the quality of the "real" games. Like...well, I bitched and bitched about how Legendia shouldn't have come out, and then it turns out to be a shitty game. It just had the "Tales" name on it, but none of the same staff. So it wouldn't have any negative effect on the quality of Rebirth/Abyss. I have also never considered the portable ones as a "real" part of the series, but rather, something for Tales fans to play on the go. I'm not sure that the main staff works on those, either, though the DS one would probably be the first to really get in the way of other game's development.
So, if you just look at the time between Rebirth and Abyss, it's not too bad, though I think another 6 months might do everyone some good.
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| gorgeous
33th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(7):Tales of the Tempest" , posted Tue 13 Dec 18:24
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I have to wonder if the quality suffers, with the number of Tales games they're putting out. It really does feel like too much, especially for an RPG series.
Tales games are the bread of the RPG kingdom. They're plain and filling; the name is affixed onto the package by a (slightly) caring publisher who wishes to assure the public that the game they're buying is the kind of game they want, and that it won't, at least, suck.
The stories are trite and boring; yet the setups are always clean. There's little waste and never any mess. That kind of game just . . . appeals to the people who played Lufia or Ys instead of Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest -- or people who would have, had they been around, back then.
See, I consider Rebirth the pinnacle of the series, and Legendia is number two. Symphonia is a damned wicked joke, Eternia is really good, and Abyss is . . . alright. It looks a little too much like Symphonia, though.
Ooh! Watch the patents! "Tales of Virtua Fighter Kids" is probably coming soon. That'd be great.
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| Amakusa 657th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(8):Tales of the Tempest" , posted Wed 14 Dec 14:13
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The stories are trite and boring; yet the setups are always clean. There's little waste and never any mess. That kind of game just . . . appeals to the people who played Lufia or Ys instead of Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest -- or people who would have, had they been around, back then.
See, I consider Rebirth the pinnacle of the series, and Legendia is number two. Symphonia is a damned wicked joke, Eternia is really good, and Abyss is . . . alright. It looks a little too much like Symphonia, though.
I only played three of the Tales games: Phantasia, Eternia, and Symphonia. I only truly liked Phantasia... but then it might have something to do with the fact that it was the one I played in complete Japanese without any real understanding as to what the story was about. Eternia was just average for me. Symphonia was such utter crap that I can't understand how anyone would like to play that over Star Ocean: Till the End of Time.
And hell, liking Lufia or Ys or Dragon Quest or whatnot has no correlation to how much you'd like the Tales series. Lufia had the puzzles going for it. Ys has the music and hack-and-slash going for it. Dragon Quest always had it going for it.
I found Kagami's sword in a junk yard.
I will rule the world and find that truly good cup of coffee.
"Dink-a-dink-a-dink-a-do."
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34th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(9):Tales of the Tempest" , posted Wed 14 Dec 16:31
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And hell, liking Lufia or Ys or Dragon Quest or whatnot has no correlation to how much you'd like the Tales series. Lufia had the puzzles going for it. Ys has the music and hack-and-slash going for it. Dragon Quest always had it going for it.
Okay, maybe I should have said people who liked Lufia more than Final Fantasy yet played every Final Fantasy anyway.
Then again saying "Final Fantasy" these days is kind of hitting on a gray area. I mean, "Final Fantasy" has become this mammoth... blob, these days. It's hard to say you're a fan. (And it's sadly not that hard to end up buying the game, anyway. Slef-conscious enemy of The Machine as I might be, I will still end up owning FFXII. Which I guess is going to be a good game, anyway.)
Yeah, Symphonia is shit. I hate how it basically talks down to you right from the beginning. I mean, I know a writer is allowed to have their own visions for a project, and I respect that, though the game is just careening downhill from the opening screen -- the hero's holding, what, water buckets or books or something in class because he's been acting up?
"OH YEAH, YOUR CHARACTER IS A BUFFOON AND A TROUBLEMAKER *ELBOW JAB*." It's kind of obnoxious. And everything happens as predicted.
Rebirth has a wonderful opening, on the other hand. It really is a wonderful sketch of a story. I like how the hero is of the ice-elemental. I like his being given that one element. Like, a lot of people complained about Super Mario Sunshine for taking place all on an island; they wanted more varied backdrops -- volcanoes and snowfields and shit. I like Rebirth's gusto from the start. And I like how gently it sketches the characters. It goes on to tell a story with plenty of little invented-on-the-fly cliffhangers and drop-offs. It's great entertainment; more than "games," "Tales" games are essentially just "entertainment." Only they're not universal -- they're "entertainment" for people who are heavy into RPGs. And as such, "Rebirth," I declare, is the most entertaining entertainment they've yet released.
Phantasia just isn't good storytelling. The battle system is interesting, yet strangely more tolerable if you've played later Tales games first. It has heart and it has ideas; it just doesn't EXECUTE any of them.
Destiny executed Phantasia's ideas, yet is a little too dry.
Eternia is the first "revolution" the series faced post-FFVII. It has guts. I think it's the first-last Tales game with guts, whatever that means.
Rebirth is better because it's a patient study of what made Eternia appeal to people: namely, that "I'm playing an RPG feeling." People who played FF back then played it and thought, "Yeah, I'm having an emotional experience." The people who enjoyed that emotional experience imagined only FF could give it to them, so didn't bother with other RPGs. The people who genuinely LIKED the item-managing, the dungeon-slogging, the up-leveling -- they're the ones who fell headlong into Lufia, and found it better. In Japan, at least, "Tales" games have always been for those people: RPG fans.
Legendia is very good in the ways that "Chrono Cross" is better than "Chrono Trigger." I mean, I personally like Trigger better than Cross, though Cross still has some amazing ideas. Legendia has some ideas, too. It just doesn't feel like a "Tales" game -- or, like a solidly-built generic RPG. It feels loose and on-edge. It's also very personal and contemplating. The soundtrack evokes this.
Second-best soundtrack of the year, by the way, after SaGa, if I do say so myself.
I wrote a lot!
OMG!!
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| Pollyanna 1552th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(10):Tales of the Tempest" , posted Wed 14 Dec 18:04
This is mostly in response to Tim, but I'd love for more people to get in on the discussion, though it may result in some "import snobbery" from me, as usual.
CHAPTER ONE: SYMPHONIA
I don't think predictability and a lame main character are good excuses not to like a Tales game, since that sort of thing is rampant in the series. Actually, let me rephrase that. You can dislike any game for any reason, but that doesn't make it bad.
I mean, I hated Lloyd and I wasn't a big fan of the plot, but my main complaints with the game are that it's too long and too easy. Lloyd was interesting for 20 hours AT THE MOST. That's being very generous. But the game was twice that long, and the characters stopped developing or being interesting long before it was over. Some of them were dead in the water.
But I expect that in a Tales game, and ToS still had Regal and Presea, who managed to be interesting to the end. That still places it above some games with characters that were NEVER interesting.
Also, I think ToS had better skits than any of the other games. Well, it had funnier skits. Dramatic ones are a waste of time. The characters may be too one dimensional to develop over 40 hours, but you can at least laugh at them for that long. A good way to trick yourself into enjoying Lloyd is to count how many times he says "Fuzakeruna". It's sick, and I can't count that high.
But the worst problem with the game is its ridiculous lack of difficulty. I played the PS2 one, so Regal had lots of interesting moves and was fun to play. His hiougi was especially cool, and for the last 3rd of the game, it was my only objective in any battle. However, the requirements for it were ridiculous, and I spent many boss fights simply standing in front of the boss, getting hit.
Even if I didn't touch the controller, I could still win the fight and I didn't stop to level ONCE. That's completely absurd.
What I'm getting at is not that there aren't good reasons to think ToS is a bad game, just that "crappy story and characters" don't apply in a series plagued with such shortcomings.
ACT 2: REBIRTH
Rebirth was beautiful and the fight system is perfect. That's all it needed to keep me happy for the time I played it.
I didn't like any of the characters with the possible exception of Claire (who is more like an archetype). I think Veigue was a GOOD character, though. He was abnormal for a main character, and I liked how he was rather unlikable. But he had the best girlfriend ever, and although I hated how the game beat around the bush with your rescue mission, I really felt like Claire was WORTH rescuing.
I can't speak for the plot as a whole, since I didn't finish the game. I felt like it wasn't going anywhere 18 hours in, and that's WAY too long to be screwing around. Also, the skits generally suck. The characters have almost nothing good to say. Oh, and the racism theme is old and tired.
Also, the dual hiougi system was stupid. Not only was it useless and just for show, it relied on luck to be pulled off at all. Also, enhancing your weapons got old fast.
The opening was indeed good, though...and it had enough momentum to fool me into thinking that I wasn't following a formula and not getting anywhere for quite a while.
INTERMISSION-DESTINY 1 AND 2
I can only guess that the reasonably-likable characters in ToD have contributed to its lasting success. I think ToD is easily the worst in the series. The battle system is poor, it looks ugly and the plot is boring.
ToD2 (have you played that one, by the way?) on the other hand may have the worst story ever written, but it was at least entertaining. The characters were tolerable, it looked good, and the battle system was great. It may be the only Tales game with a good hiougi system, actually. Even though I can't make myself say "ToD2 is a great game", I had the most fun with it, and that counts for a lot.
SECTION 3 -PHANTASIA
I think the ToP battle system still holds up today because it's not an "early" Tales system, but a system of its own. The thing I like about it, is that while it looks like an action-based system, in actuality, it's not far from a real-time RPG setup.Unlike other Tales games, you're controlling your entire team. Cless may be the guy you're "officially" moving, but you're still giving orders with menus and hotkeys to manage the action going on. Sure, you do that to an extent in other Tales games, but you're mostly relying on AI.
Oddly, I found the plot and characters, however uninteresting, tolerable, if not enjoyable. I think it's because it does, indeed, have "heart".
EPILOGUE-ETERNIA AND BEYOND...
I can't seem to complain about Eternia, and I think that says a lot for it. I don't dislike the characters, the story was at least mildly interesting, and it was the first Tales game to look good and have a good action-based battle system.
As for Legendia...maybe I could like it if it wasn't a "Tales" game. But a Tales game with a battle system that bad is no child of mine.
APPENDIX
In the end, ALL Tales games need more dynamic story telling, interesting characters and challenge. I always feel this way when a new one comes out, but I have high hopes for Abyss. I really mean it this time, though.
Also, while Legendia and (to a greater extent) Minstrel Song have excellent soundtracks, I have to place Shadow of the Collosus AT LEAST a notch above Legendia.
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| Pollyanna 1558th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(4):Re(10):Tales of the Abyssssss!!!!" , posted Sat 17 Dec 18:56
Awww...I was hoping people would talk more about Tales stuff.
Anyway, I just got ToA and I've been playing it when I'm not sleeping, eating or exercising, so I'm dying to say a few things.
So far, it's quite excellent. Much to my surprise, the characters are highly enjoyable, and the plot is very dynamic.
I'm surprised to see so many little twists and surprises in a Tales game. It's not like there have been tremendous plot twists or crazy developments, but there are little surprises everywhere you go, and it's hard to tell what's going to happen next (even if some inevitable plot points are obvious from the start).
The battle system is not quite as good as Rebirth, but at least the hiougi/FOF stuff is more sensible and rewarding. The FOF system is something new that activates when a character casts a spell. When a spell is cast, it makes a small elemental marker on the ground. When a spell of the same elemental is cast, the marker turns into a larger magic circle. If you perform a compatible technique in the circle, then you get a dramatic (and powerful) elemental special tech. I find myself spending many battles just trying to pull this off (which happens pretty frequently, actually).
Videos made it look more "3D" in that you could run around in any direction, like in Star Ocean. It's actually nothing like that. While you CAN run in all directions as you like (if you hold down L2), it's not true 3D, but more like an infinite number of 2D lines like in a normal Tales game. So, whatever character you're targeting, you'll move towards on a line if you run forward or attack (on semi auto at least).
However, there is still a 3D/strategic element to it in that some areas can become crowded and dangerous and some attacks hit an area that covers several "lines". Still, it's less like 3D and more like an evolution of the Rebirth system.
I'm not happy to lose the tech/ougi (no MP) system from Rebirth, but altogether, the fights are faster and smoother (great animation!). They did keep the "randomly activated effects on equipment" system, though I'm not sure anyone was really a fan of that.
My only complaint isn't really a complaint so much as a fear. The game has been VERY plot heavy with precious little gameplay. The plot has been good enough to keep me totally engaged, but I hope to get a bit more gameplay focus in the future. I'm afraid that the plot will fall apart at any second and I'll have to look for the 12 pieces of something or other for the rest of the game.
I really love the cast, but I hope they can continue to be interesting for the rest of the game. In ToS, I liked most of the cast at first, but was totally sick of them by the end.
Oh, and the skits have been very enjoyable so far. I felt like the Rebirth characters didn't have anything interesting to say (too many "sad sack" characters) outside of the main plot, but the Abyss ones are all relatively exciting.
I just hope they can develop Luke into a character that manages to be interesting, because I know he can't be a spoiled ass for the whole game, as badly as I want him to.
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| Pollyanna 1559th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(6):Re(10):Tales of the Abyssssss!!!!" , posted Sun 18 Dec 05:38
quote:
Nobody wanted Cecil (FF4) and the main guy from Grandia 2 to change, but they did.
Any relationship with Phantasia/Symphonia? So far the three Fujishima Tales (counting the first Narikiri) have been related...
I don't necessarily agree with what you said about changing, but I agree in theory enough to say "yeah, you're right".
Anyway, erm...well, I haven't seen anything in the game to indicate other Tales tie-ins other than the Shikkoku no Tsubasa/Jet Black Wings. There's a big tree in the opening, though. Heheh...I'm not anywhere near the end, so it's a bit early to say.
As for Luke changing...well, it's sort of necessary in his case. He's a terrible person. Arrogant, ignorant and short-tempered. He sort of has an excuse though, and I sort of feel sorry for him sometimes. His character has had some interesting developments so far, so I hope the trend continues and he can manage to turn into a hero without betraying who he is. I have to love a guy that hates the mascot character so much, though.
One thing I forgot to mention that I really like, is the addition of conversations during boss fights (like in the last fight in ToD2). The exchange between Arietta, Anise and Luke was pretty enjoyable.
Zepy: Do you know how learning skills works? It seems as if it's based on move count (as before) with a level requirement thrown in. I can't quite tell.
Also, did you like the Rebirth battle system? I never talked to you about it. As much as I liked that aspect of it, I just couldn't get through the game.
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| Pollyanna 1562th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(1):2nd Popularity Contest results" , posted Tue 20 Dec 04:20
Rid:
The crazy thing here is that Leon is actually at an unfair disadvantage, since his votes are scattered across two "characters". I like Leon because he's ridiculous, but this level of popularity is frightning. Still, I think there are far worse injustices on the character poll.
Zepy:
Just to make sure we're on the same page here, let me confirm what the moves in Tales games are called. I call the physical attack techniques (x button) "techs". The moves that combine two techs are "ougi". Is that right?
Anyway, my character have learned techs and ougi outside of leveling up, so I assumed there was a number of uses importance. Even if you don't have it for techs, it seems necessary for ougi. Otherwise you can learn an ougi with two techs you've only used once each? That seems a little off. Also, I don't know if there are "paths" like in ToS where you learn one tech/spell, but not another.
The system was so much better in ToR (than usual Tales) because you were encouraged to use all of your techs for reasons other than "getting the count up." In fact, you had to, since you didn't have magic and had to manage your "tech gauges" to keep doing damage, finish the enemy off with the right one (to get smash points to make ougi) and do ougi.
In ToA, I find it silly how I'll do one move over and over until I run out of TP. It feels primitive in reference to how things were handled in ToR. I really liked the other gauge in ToR, too. (forgot the official name) When it's high you can guard break and perform ougi, but when it's low you can get HP back from defeating enemies. With no healing spells (just regen circles), managing HP was a survival necessity.
The number of moves you have is also a bit much in ToA, since normally I would have my ougi replace my techs, but now I can't, because they don't necessarily have the affiliation to do FOF moves. So now, I'm using up all my hotkeys just for Guy or Luke.
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"Tales of the Tempest" , posted Mon 12 Dec 21:26:
the gods themselves are put to flight and the Buddhas vanish"
