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"London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 01:01post reply

I don't think any regular poster here lives in London, but even a selfish asshole like myself can't help thinking about what happenned there today.

I hope everyone, friends, lurkers and alternate personalities, is alright.





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"Re(1):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 01:05post reply

quote:
I don't think any regular poster here lives in London, but even a selfish asshole like myself can't help thinking about what happenned there today.

I hope everyone, friends, lurkers and alternate personalities, is alright.



I agree.

It's acts like this that make me sick. It just doesn't make sense...






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"Re(1):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 01:09post reply

I was upset too. I hope everyone is all right. My thoughts go out to all the folks that went through that.





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"Re(2):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 01:28post reply

quote:

It's acts like this that make me sick. It just doesn't make sense...



makes sense if you want to turn places like the US and england into martial law-controlled regimes, to weaken control of the general people (as though that even needed to be done!).

I'm sure Red Falcon has LOTS to say about this, but won't. He's probably really busy just now anyway.





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"Re(3):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 01:33post reply

The only remotely english person not far from the MMC multiverse I can think of is Simoniker from IC/GSutra. Also there's that guy Yakumo who's from Liverpool.

I guess we're lucky the MMC european community is mostly latin/mediterranean.





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"Re(1):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 01:35post reply

quote:
I don't think any regular poster here lives in London, but even a selfish asshole like myself can't help thinking about what happenned there today.

I hope everyone, friends, lurkers and alternate personalities, is alright.



Yeah my just mom went back home there a few days ago so it's pretty freaky. I'm not too worried since she staying with my Aunt in the boonies, but she did go through through Heathrow. It sucks since the phones are either down for security concerns or they are getting hammered by people calling to check on loved ones.






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"Re(4):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 01:57post reply

quote:
I guess we're lucky the MMC european community is mostly latin/mediterranean.



Well... We got the bombings in Madrid last year, I wouldn't call that luck.


Hopefuly, this time the death doesn't seem to be as many as in Madrid or in the 11-S, but that isn't too comforting, either.





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"Re(4):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 02:29post reply

simoniker lives in the US though - so red falcon's as relevant, britishness-wise.





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"Re(5):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 02:39post reply

quote:

Well... We got the bombings in Madrid last year, I wouldn't call that luck.



Yeah, we got a series of bombings in France too, exactly ten years ago. I was obviously refering to this morning's events only.





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"Re(6):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 02:59post reply

quote:
Yeah, we got a series of bombings in France too, exactly ten years ago. I was obviously refering to this morning's events only.


You know it's not the same. The 11-S, Madrid and London events are obviously connected.





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"Re(7):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 03:23post reply

İstanbul was bombed,too.It was 1 or 2 years ago.It was connected to 11-S and Madrid.I really dont know London connected to those events? It might be g-8 thing.If the news dont say otherwise.

The world is not safe for the innocent people.


Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
Fuck all the twisted dumb brains who are thirsty for innocent people's blood.I hope theyll be raped by elephants or whales

End of Spoiler







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"Re(8):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 04:02post reply

quote:

The world is not safe for the innocent people.



it's never been safe for anyone, in fact.

so by 'fuck those who thirst for innocent blood,' do you mean every major government in the world? I agree then, completely.





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"Re(2):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 04:04post reply

quote:
I don't think any regular poster here lives in London, but even a selfish asshole like myself can't help thinking about what happenned there today.

I hope everyone, friends, lurkers and alternate personalities, is alright.


I agree.

It's acts like this that make me sick. It just doesn't make sense...



I'm with you there, it's horrible. My prayers go out for all those injured and those who passed on, caught in this horrible injustice. I hope the criminals responsible see a harsh and brutal justice brought upon them.






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"Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 04:23post reply

quote:
harsh and brutal justice brought upon them.


Then it wouldn't be justice, would it?
It's always the same: An attack happens somewhere, and people jump into conclusions and claim the heads of those who did it, but they never think what made them do it. If you people want the responsibles to meet "harsh and brutal justice", or to be raped by a whale, then you're not better than them. It's because of people with this kind of mentality that leads to this shit happening all over the world. "Terrorists" are acting like this because they think a lot like you "Oh, they're invading us/killing us/messing with us/whatever, let's bomb them/blow them/behead them/etc. in response", and it's not only that, money and power is often always involved. I'm afraid this will lead to racial tension, to hate against certain minorities, conflict will breed conflict, a witch hunt will start and the government will now have "right" to attack those who it considers the enemy ("See? we have the right to attack now because they did it first" and people will agree with this), it's a vicious circle that will never end.
It sucks the attacks are never guided to those in power, to those that are responsible for this shit happening in the first place, it's sad people always suffer due to the greedy and shitty governments, but then again we're humans after all, and we're doomed to kill each other because we can't see that beyond every material possesion, race or belief, we're the same.
Oh well...





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"Re(3):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 04:23:post reply

quote:
I hope the criminals responsible see a harsh and brutal justice brought upon them.



hear hear! bring tony blair to justice for entering the war against the will of the people.

though I don't necessarily agree with the idea of perpetuating the violence, but hey, that's just me.

[edit]
me and onslaught.





[this message was edited by exodus on Fri 8 Jul 04:25]

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"Re(1):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 04:27post reply

quote:
I don't think any regular poster here lives in London, but even a selfish asshole like myself can't help thinking about what happenned there today.

I hope everyone, friends, lurkers and alternate personalities, is alright.



Wasn't Gunsmith from Orochinagi.com based in London?

Also, isn't it wierd about the timing of this disaster? It was only yesterday when London was named the site of the 2012 Olympic games.





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"Re(1):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 04:33:post reply

Everything Onsy said there is pretty much 100% agreed with. It's essentially a cycle perpetuated by people who don't actually think about WHY these things happen and try to address the problems at their roots; it's always "kill X person/people in retaliation", so it will continue until people finally learn the lesson (which, let's face it, won't ever happen) ANYWAY, back to the grind stone. They say "ignorance is bliss", but it's at the root of all of this (on both ends)

Edit: Obviously this doesn't JUSTIFY the killing of civilians, but the point is there is a much better way of combatting this than "blowing the shit out of them." What SHOULD be being fought is a perception and a belief about the West (and to a degree the Moslem world too), NOT any real organization; if "Al Qaeda is destroyed", another Al Qaeda will be along a few years later, UNLESS perceptions are radically altered (and even then such organizations will still surely exist, they just won't have the drawing power or allure). Of course, changing these perceptions would require actions which have pretty much a 0% chance of ever actually happening. Washington warned the American people of "playing favorites" with Nations in his farewell address, and now the whole Israel conflict (as well as America's general policies in the Mid-East) have come back to bite it on the ass, as well as anyone else involved.

Just as a quiz here, can any of you Americans give the year Bin Laden first issued his intifada against the U.S. and what his conditions were (and for bonus points, how many times he has attacked the U.S. or U.S. interests prior to 9/11?)





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 8 Jul 04:46]

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"Re(2):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 04:39post reply

word, falcon.
btw, do you have an aim address or something? I can't recall. if so, email it to meeeeeeeee





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"Re(3):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 05:01post reply

I don't agree with the Iraq war but saying this was retaliation for UK committing troops was just an excuse. Most of the Madrid terrorist cells were installed long before the war ever began. What other purpose did they have being there other than to plan something in the future?

And like was mentioned before, there have been bombings in France and Turkey, two nations that hardly supported the war.

The problem is Bush f-cked it up, we should have been striking at terrorists Mossad-style through special ops, when they do not see it coming.

Sending our armies into the heart of a country only makes things worse.





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"Re(4):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 05:30post reply

What matters to me here (beside the fact I obviously think as Onsy and RF do) is the repercutions this event will have on our local political life.

Thank god, we shouldn't get rid of Chirac before 2007, but this kind of shit hapenning near us is exactly the kind of thing that will be used by Sarko (a dangerous little dwarf thirsty with power who only answers to the violence in the suburbs with more cops and more legislation, Giuliani in worse) to climb up to power.





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"Re(4):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 05:57post reply

quote:
Sending our armies into the heart of a country only makes things worse.


I agree.Also its weird that still bush couldnt find the usame bin ladeen,but he finds saddam .almost four years after incident still no usame or someone high in the organization found? That just wierd.
And now bush's new target is Iran.
He would say smthng like this
"We heard usame is in Iran so we decided to take over the whole country.We would use extra excuse like freedom or democrasy to take over.If we cant find him there, we're going to look after next oil country."
My country's southeast part (im living in south -mediterrean zone-) is neighbour to iraq and iran.So this war issues makes me see nightmares about being in war nowadays.

P.S.:Im not anti american.I love America and Americans.I know that a lot of american people was against to war.I just dont like so-called patriotic bush goverment.

P.S.2:My grammar is not good.It is risky to get in serious talk.So sorry about that.





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"Re(4):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 06:00:post reply

quote:
And like was mentioned before, there have been bombings in France and Turkey, two nations that hardly supported the war.
Uh, the France bombings were in 1995 and were intended to force more French involvement in the war in Algeria, and the bombings in Istanbul were directed at Synagogues and the British Consulate. They were not directed at Turkish people, although many Turks died anyway (much the same as with the Kenya bombings, which were directed at U.S. interests) Not ALL bombings are triggered by the same reasons, nor are they done by the same group (Al Qaeda was not behind the 1995 France bombings, and some blame the Greater Eastern Islamic Raider's Front for the Istanbul bombings, although admittedly it seems unlikely they were entirely behind it.) Don't assume everything revolves around "the war", but I don't think you meant it that way. Mossad breaks all kinds of international laws, BTW, and if the U.S. would start Mossad-like ops and word would get out, it would be just as effective a propaganda tool as Gitmo is, currently. Israel is at the core of the whole problem and it's a prime example of exactly what Washington warned Americans about, but I'm DEFINATELY not getting any deeper in tot he Israel stuff, it's way too touchy. Besides, as a "model nation", the U.S. should make more efforts NOT to do that sort of thing; what kind of message does that send? I know this kind of thing brings out a lot of emotion in people, but they HAVE to be looked at from a logical perspective.

Edit: Quiz is still open, BTW. Anybody?





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 8 Jul 06:29]

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"Re(5):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 06:23post reply

I work about five minutes away from the Twin Towers and I was in the area when the Towers fell, so I definitly know who desperate these situations are and how powerless people feel. My condolences and prayers go out to the people of London. I know a few SRKers from England, hope they are okay. (Sano goes to visit the SRK London thread...)





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"Re(5):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 06:34post reply

quote:
It sucks the attacks are never guided to those in power, to those that are responsible for this shit happening in the first place, it's sad people always suffer due to the greedy and shitty governments, but then again we're humans after all, and we're doomed to kill each other because we can't see that beyond every material possesion, race or belief, we're the same.
Oh well...

(beside the fact I obviously think as Onsy and RF do)

I... uh... fourth that. All this is so frustrating... Why? Why do we humans had to have this much greed and pride, this need for vengeance, (self-)destruction and the like?!

That's why I like videogames and similar. Help me escape. -sigh- x_x





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"Re(6):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 07:06post reply

Wait, what happened? I've been stuck in class for 5 hours and there's no news on right now so I have no idea.





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"Re(7):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 07:32:post reply

quote:
Wait, what happened? I've been stuck in class for 5 hours and there's no news on right now so I have no idea.


This might be of some help http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/london_bombings
I was playing Metroid Prime 2 (Godamn Sky temple keys!) and came to check the board, I don't watch news on TV and didn't check Yahoo news like always, and at first I thought this was some kind of witty remark on Iggy's part against London's Olympic victory, but when I read the replies, I knew something was wrong, I went to yahoo and the rest is history.





[this message was edited by ONSLAUGHT on Fri 8 Jul 07:33]

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"Re(5):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 07:45post reply

I don't like your tone Red. Every time read something political from you I can't but help imagine you as someone willing to get riled up and do something unspeakable; so as what you say isn't just rehtoric.

I mean if we put each other in each other's shoes and we come to mutual conclusion of eyes or eyes and more eyes. What next can be done? How do you go about stopping this kind of violence?

I find it ridiculous that with all a terrorist organitations' power money and followers their only voice and option to sway others is to kill innocents. No change or revolution has to target innocent blood: Velvet revolution, ferdinand marcos, Cedar, Lucio Gutierrez, Ghandi, Women's rights, King. People can sway each others hearts and minds without blowing up a bus of school children. Thats a fact not a some far out ideology or a pipe. And those vile actions and thinking is what keeps their opposition on a moral high ground no matter how false the ground it is.





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"Re(8):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 07:47post reply

Not so much from London but I'm from Scotland i.e. part of the UK, so this morning was a bit of a shock to switch on the news. Man, hope some of my Uni buddies are fine visiting home (London) during the summer...






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"Re(6):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 07:50:post reply

quote:
I find it ridiculous that with all a terrorist organitations' power money and followers their only voice and option to sway others is to kill innocents. No change or revolution has to target innocent blood: Velvet revolution, ferdinand marcos, Cedar, Lucio Gutierrez, Ghandi, Women's rights, King. People can sway each others hearts and minds without blowing up a bus of school children. Thats a fact not a some far out ideology or a pipe. And those vile actions and thinking is what keeps their opposition on a moral high ground no matter how false the ground it is.

Christ, I'm not JUSTIFYING it, I'm just saying if you meet violence with violence, you WILL NOT STOP IT. I think the goal of people is to STOP the attacks, not just kill people in retaliation. If people actually want to STOP this, you can not just respond to every violent action with a violent action, you have to change the way of thinking that causes these kind of feelings towards the west. Look as the Israelis, they've been responding with violence for years and has it stopped suicide bombings against their country? NO, VIOLENT RETALIATION DOES NOT WORK. Why the fuck do you think the French got out of Algeria? Attacks against French interests dropped exponentially BECAUSE they didn't "give in". And what the fuck are you talking about, I didn't say "go in there and kill 'em" NOR did I say "It's okay for them to kill people", I said the exact opposite! Did you even UNDERSTAND what I said? I was responding to Mike's theory that the U.S. should use MOSSAD style tactics to counter this with some factual information about previous attacks, I wasn't SAYING "blowing up civilians is okay" NOR was I saying "killing them in retaliation" is okay. How the fuck can you break a cycle of violence if you become a part of it? Next time read the whole thread before you respond!





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 8 Jul 07:55]

Black_Hayato
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"Re(7):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 08:03post reply

I read the posts, but your postion just didn't seen clear imo.





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"Re(7):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 08:23:post reply

quote:
Did you even UNDERSTAND what I said?



you need to ask that question?

the idea of hesitance towards retaliation is always viewed as either weak, a concession, or justification for whomever wronged someone, largely because people seem to be doctored to feel that way (the US gov't has done a GREAT job of making people feel this way - to the extent of our changing the word 'french' to 'freedom' in many parts of the nation for a time).

The fact remains that violence begets violence - but violence will never stop. We can and will just continue to kill each other until we're all dead. I mean...that's just how it's going to go.

The thing that bugs me is that when we blow up a hospital or something, and it's an accident, everyone shrugs. *meh, these things happen in war*
but when someone kills innocents on purpose, they're evil. I personally think that whoever gave the order to shoot a target anywhere near a non-military hospital is every bit as much of a 'terrorist.'

Plus, seriously - who's innocent anyway? who's guilty? If they blew up the parliment, would people think - oh, well at least they didn't blow up the innocents. OK, well *I* might think that, but would most people?


[edit]

a repositioning:

I find it ridiculous that with all [the united states] power, money, and followers the only voice and option to sway others is to kill [snip].





[this message was edited by exodus on Fri 8 Jul 08:26]

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"Re(8):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 08:30:post reply

quote:
I read the posts, but your postion just didn't seen clear imo.

Sorry, that REALLY angered me, but I'm better now. Sorry, but you were essentially putting words in my mouth. This isn't a war against a conventional enemy like in the Great War or the Second World War, conventional methods will not work. For the enemy, it's already a religious war; western powers will have to do their best to convince the Mid-East that this isn't a war against Islam, but it may already be too late. There are ANY number of things the west could do to reduce the number of attacks, but most of the options are just too ugly to face up to (I.E., withdrawing support for Israel). Truth to tell, even if the West DOES try to change the way it acts in some of these circumstances, it might very well not make any difference, this conflict has been brewing for decades. At this point, the only thing that might really be viable is to try and change the madrassis and place hope in the next generation.

Edit: Anybody? Need clues?





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 8 Jul 08:43]

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"Re(8):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 08:45post reply

I find it ridiculous that with all [the united states] power, money, and followers the only voice and option to sway others is to kill [snip].



I had a feeling when I posted that it would be rephrased that way. But the US doesn't only fight in that way, most of the time its other ways its often chastised for, like economic or political. Yet the terrorists fight in one way only. I don't see them moving ppl towards their with other means.





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"Re(9):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 09:11post reply

quote:
Yet the terrorists fight in one way only. I don't see them moving ppl towards their with other means.



hehe, yeah, then they wouldn't be terrorists, basically.





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"Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 09:50post reply

quote:

hehe, yeah, then they wouldn't be terrorists, basically.


I really just want to know how messed up you need to be to misinterpret religious texts to the point that killing innocent people nets you a place in the eternal afterlife with a harem of virgins.

(Insert gag for levity around religious conversation) Being around a bunch of virgins for what seems like an eternity isn't so great. I was in my highschool marching band.

Anyone else thinking about how London just got the next (next) Olympic games? This act puts them on Terror Level Paranoid for the next seven years until the event has passed.





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"Re(2):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 10:12:post reply

quote:
Anyone else thinking about how London just got the next (next) Olympic games? This act puts them on Terror Level Paranoid for the next seven years until the event has passed.

Ho ho, you'd better believe it! (especially considering the history of terrorist incidents at the Olympics.. who can forget the 1972 Munich hostage crisis or the more recent 1996 bombings in Atlanta?)

Edit: And it isn't like the use of religion to motivate people to violence is a new activity; frankly, most Abrahamic religious texts DO incite violence AND simultaneously speak out against it. The bible says disrespectful children should be stoned to death, just as an example (It also says blacks are destined to be slaves, this is the well-known "Curse of Ham"..every Southerner's favorite defense in antebellum America!) Christians are HISTORICALLY the worst of the bunch, all sorts of atrocities have been committed in the "name of God" from the crusades to the Inquisition to pogroms in Russia, so this isn't anything new. Nothing is better at giving people a sense of "righteousness" than religion!

Edit: Of course, this isn't meant to offend anyone, just a commentary on how dangerous religious extremism is. Just look at the abortion clinic bombings or murders of surgeons willing to perform abortions in the U.S. I've always found it amusing these people will "protect life" by killing and harassing others. There was even a list of all known surgeons willing to perform abortions floating around a few years ago; the site has been shut down for a while, but the document is still circulated amongst certain violent religious circles. Again, I'm NOT defending this, I'm just pointing out that religions and violence have a very long history with each other.

I guess the thing to worry about now is whether there will be further attacks in London. The cell responsible for this has blown its cover and is still on the loose; unless they're apprehended quickly, further attacks are probably likely.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 8 Jul 10:46]

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"Re(1):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 11:23post reply

Oi. Events like these are just some of the reasons I hate religion in any form...





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"Re(9):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 11:34:post reply

As much as we tend to avoid religious issues, I suppose the topic has come up already somehow. I just find it ironic that the Bible has been telling us "earth is doomed" for milleniums. It's also ironic that tiny Israel, God's people, is always at the heart of all of this. The cycle of (ethnic and otherwise) hate has gone beyond brewing for ages. It's been in motion for way too long now and nothing will completely stop it. As long as money exists in the world...people will fight over it. And no side is right. (West nor M. East)

I believe Ishmael the forsaken son's story is told in Genesis. (Abraham's son through Sarah's maid- with Sarah's permission) And now we got Isaac's (Abramham's son through Sarah) and Ishmael's descendants (Israel and Palestine respectively) battling to this day- a battle that's central to the global cycle of hate that will bring about the end of the world. Anyway I'm getting off point.

My heart goes out to London obviously. As for Falcon's religions and Christianity post, I realize that you are just making a point. I would also like to point out that those who murder abortion surgeons and stuff are no more Christians than I am a Muslim. That is to say that lots of people who claim to be Christians (or do things in the name of God) are actually Christians in their words, actions, and beliefs. Using terrorists to justify objecting to religion is illogical.





[this message was edited by Phoenix on Fri 8 Jul 11:42]

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"Re(3):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 11:38:post reply

My condolensces to all the families who lost loved ones today. With that said, I fifth, sixth, and seventh everything said by Onsy, RF, et al. Violence begets violence and terrorism isn't going to stop until everyone's dead or humanity in general begins to evolve their way of thinking about conflict resolution. "Bring it on" they will.

quote:
Edit: And it isn't like the use of religion to motivate people to violence is a new activity; frankly, most Abrahamic religious texts DO incite violence AND simultaneously speak out against it. The bible says disrespectful children should be stoned to death, just as an example (It also says blacks are destined to be slaves, this is the well-known "Curse of Ham"..every Southerner's favorite defense in antebellum America!) Christians are HISTORICALLY the worst of the bunch, all sorts of atrocities have been committed in the "name of God" from the crusades to the Inquisition to pogroms in Russia, so this isn't anything new. Nothing is better at giving people a sense of "righteousness" than religion!
Couldn't have put it better myself... I'm a firm believer in live and let live (the only thing I hate more than hostile religious folk are hostile atheists), but monotheistic religions believe in absolutes which leave zero room for compromise or negotiation. Couple that with a belief in a flowery afterlife and the hopelessness caused by decades of poverty and you've got a never-ending line of people ready and even eager to die over pretty much nothing (land disputes and Westernization mostly... though I may jihad myself if I see one more Starbucks).
quote:
I guess the thing to worry about now is whether there will be further attacks in London. The cell responsible for this has blown its cover and is still on the loose; unless they're apprehended quickly, further attacks are probably likely.
I wouldn't bet on it. If time has proven anything, it's that terrorists are a patient bunch. They seem to wait just long enough so that people become complacent. I don't think we'll see any major terrorist activity (outside of the usual places) for a while.

Edit:
quote:
As for Falcon's religions and Christianity post, I realize that you are just making a point. I would also like to point out that those who murder abortion surgeons and stuff are no more Christians than I am a Muslim.
A frequently used cop-out. They most certainly are Christians. Same with the Salem witch hunters, the inquisitors (who were far too inquisitive as Eddie Izzard would say), and every other person who's killed in the name of Jesus. Are they good Christians? You tell me. Depending on the bible verse you choose, you could easily argue either way.





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"Re(8):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 11:55post reply

quote:
Wait, what happened? I've been stuck in class for 5 hours and there's no news on right now so I have no idea.

This might be of some help http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/london_bombings
I was playing Metroid Prime 2 (Godamn Sky temple keys!) and came to check the board, I don't watch news on TV and didn't check Yahoo news like always, and at first I thought this was some kind of witty remark on Iggy's part against London's Olympic victory, but when I read the replies, I knew something was wrong, I went to yahoo and the rest is history.



That link doesn't work but I found it anyway. Geez, that's terrible. My condolences to all those involved in this. Hopefully the few people that I know in London are okay.

I also thought he was talking about the Olympics, because Paris was supposed to be the front-runner for it and London got it anyway. But it seems that's not really on anyone's mind at the moment.

I seem to remember this exact same thing happening in Spain (?) not too long ago, like last year... not as fatal, but I remember seeing some video footage of people riding an escalator down into a subway and BOOM, puff of smoke. Same group? Or just copycats?





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"Re(9):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 12:27post reply

quote:
I seem to remember this exact same thing happening in Spain (?) not too long ago, like last year... not as fatal, but I remember seeing some video footage of people riding an escalator down into a subway and BOOM, puff of smoke. Same group? Or just copycats?

Different, but related group, and it was actually more fatal. See, Al-Qaida has become sort of a "franchise" operation; they're extremely decentralized now, and in fact it's quite likely many different cells are planning attacks other cells have no knowledge of.





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"Re(4):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 12:36:post reply

quote:

A frequently used cop-out. They most certainly are Christians. Same with the Salem witch hunters, the inquisitors (who were far too inquisitive as Eddie Izzard would say), and every other person who's killed in the name of Jesus. Are they good Christians? You tell me. Depending on the bible verse you choose, you could easily argue either way.



Cop out? They most certainly are not Christians. Salem witch hunters and inquisitors were not Christians. They just claimed to be so. Let me quote my previous post here: "That is to say that lots of people who claim to be Christians (or do things in the name of God) are NOT actually Christians in their words, actions, and beliefs." My main point is this: a Christian is someone who lives by the beliefs of Christianity and murderers do not live by those beliefs.





[this message was edited by Phoenix on Fri 8 Jul 12:45]

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"Re(2):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 12:45:post reply

quote:
I really just want to know how messed up you need to be to misinterpret religious texts to the point that killing innocent people nets you a place in the eternal afterlife with a harem of virgins.

I'm a muslim and i can explain that(as much as i can with my broken english)

There's a belief in our religion:
When you protect your land youll be awarded. How? -When enemy COMES into your land. Threatens your and your loved ones' LIFE, FREEDOM, HONOR then your allowed to struggle, fightback to the enemy (you cant fight out of your land if its cihad - belief war - otherwise that means MURDER and its one of big sins) And If you die as you fight to PROTECT yourself, your land etc...You named ŞEHİT/martyr and you're going to heaven directly and your honored. But fucking twisted brained terrorists use this to brainwash.

However theres some rules too. If you have hostaged an enemy-soldier and unarmed him/her, he/she must be treated as a GUEST. You hear it correctly. It is the way it should be if you really are a muslim.Also you shouldnt kill innocent people on purpose or anyway.You shouldnt harm anybody if its not the enemy.Unarmed and made harmless enemy is also defenceless and innocent.
And what those terrorist doing (they're so-called muslims)...Killing innocent people < they dont care if its children or poor-old people >, cutting hostages throats and taking in camera who is not even soldier or smthng.

About the virgin harem thing; in our religions sex before marriage is not allowed. Its a sin. Its not a big sin as much as murder though. In Türkiye most people dont took it nice but its changing. People are behaving with more tolerance. But In Middle east this issue still a taboo.So most of those guys didnt lost their virginity till they're married. The point is; they say young ignorant brains "if you do this youre going to be a ŞEHİT/martyr,youll be in heaven, you'll got whatever you want,and there will be thousands of virgin lovers will serve you Forever and ever. Seriously they brainwash young people with this.
So i believe and most of the real muslims believes that real answer is in the holy book of Islam.Young brains should not let anyone or anyhing (such as traditions not connected to religion) brainwash you.

I hope i can add smthng to this conversation.
P.S.:Any other muslim guy can tell my mistakes if im making some, since im not a "religion teacher".





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"Re(9):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 12:52post reply

One of the bombings was very close to where I was born. I hope noone I know is hurt...

I find it strange that every time the Full Metal Panic anime is close to being released, a terrorist related incident occurs. I hope they don't delay the air date again this time?

Rugal:
As for the quiz, Bin Laden issued it in February 1998. The details are here:
http://www.emergency.com/bladen98.htm
I had forgotten the date; it seems so long ago. I remember the part about killing all Americans anywhere, but not the parts about liberating the mosque and lands.

As for attacks, does the World Trade Centre bombing (1993) count? Rumours has it that it had Al-queda links.





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"Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 13:01:post reply

quote:
Rugal:
As for the quiz, Bin Laden issued it in February 1998. The details are here:
http://www.emergency.com/bladen98.htm
I had forgotten the date; it seems so long ago. I remember the part about killing all Americans anywhere, but not the parts about liberating the mosque and lands.

Nope, he issued one before this! Edit:And yeah, the WTC attack counts. Also, to clarify, the 1998 fatwa was a "re-issuing" of his original fatwa.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 8 Jul 13:03]

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"Re(2):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 13:13post reply

quote:
I don't think any regular poster here lives in London, but even a selfish asshole like myself can't help thinking about what happenned there today.

I hope everyone, friends, lurkers and alternate personalities, is alright.


Wasn't Gunsmith from Orochinagi.com based in London?

Also, isn't it wierd about the timing of this disaster? It was only yesterday when London was named the site of the 2012 Olympic games.



Cripes, this was very sudden... though with the G8 summit, the timing is understandable. My condolences..

Gunsmith is alive and well, just contacted him.





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"Re(3):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 13:50post reply

I'm praying for the best for everyone in London. Shocked and sad...

quote:

The fact remains that violence begets violence - but violence will never stop. We can and will just continue to kill each other until we're all dead. I mean...that's just how it's going to go.



I hope that we can somehow change this backwards point of view that the world seems to hold.

I do love the idealized America that as children growing up in the US, we are all taught to appreciate. However the idealized America, and the America of today are 2 different beasts entirely. I'm of the firm belief that Bush's actions across the world have only made things worse, not only for the US but for our allies.

It's a shame that these terrorist attacks will continue, and we all know they will. I just hope that we can find another solution, other than blowing up hospitals looking for Bin Laden and making shaky connections between 9/11 and Saddam in order to establish a base in the middle east.

....





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"Re(4):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 14:16post reply

Personally I think the one thing that could make a big change is turn Jerusalem into a UN-occupied nation state of its own much like the vatican city, only secular and open to all religions. Because lets face it, for centuries Christians, Jews, and Muslims are going to fight over it and it will switch ownership over and over.

I think if it belonged to neither the Israelis or the Palestinians that might help.





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"Re(2):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 18:57post reply

Quiz related, since none in the US seems to know/want to post:
I remember 2 Al Quaeda attacks, apart from the WTC bombing Holiday mentioned: A motorboat-bomb crashed into a US ship, suicide style. Also, the bombings in the US embassy in... Nigeria, maybe? I don't recall the exact country, it was in Africa.

And yes, responding with violence against violence is not the answer. But being naive isn't either. The polices of all countries must investigate and cooperate, to find all the terrorist cells as possible, and bring them to justice. And when I say justice, I don't mean Guantanamo, but a decent jail and a real trial.





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"Re(5):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 19:05post reply

Well I've nothing else to add to the terrorists subject...

All I can tell is that I fell really sad for all the people who have to suffer from this, and all the fireman from our station are ready to leave for england if needed.
Dogs are ready too!






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"Re(6):London" , posted Fri 8 Jul 20:22:post reply

quote:
Well I've nothing else to add to the terrorists subject...

All I can tell is that I fell really sad for all the people who have to suffer from this, and all the fireman from our station are ready to leave for england if needed.
Dogs are ready too!


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[this message was edited by kikkoken on Fri 8 Jul 20:24]

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"Re(8):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 20:58post reply

quote:
to the extent of our changing the word 'french' to 'freedom' in many parts of the nation for a time

Wasn't until just now I noticed the irony in that.

You know. Parallel revolutions. Big statue in the bay.

HUR HUR.





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"Re(5):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 02:52post reply

quote:
Cop out? They most certainly are not Christians. Salem witch hunters and inquisitors were not Christians. They just claimed to be so. Let me quote my previous post here: "That is to say that lots of people who claim to be Christians (or do things in the name of God) are NOT actually Christians in their words, actions, and beliefs." My main point is this: a Christian is someone who lives by the beliefs of Christianity and murderers do not live by those beliefs.
I'm well aware of what your point was. It's the same tired argument repeated ad nauseum by people who wish to disassociate themselves from the seedy history/modern extremists of their faith and can't accept the fact that monotheistic patriarchies are part of the problem.

Now allow me to clarify my point: just because they do things you and I don't think are Christian acts doesn't mean you get to withdraw their status as Christian. If they say they're Christian, they're Christian, regardless of their actions. Were the things they did un-Christlike? I would say yes... as would most Christians. Rather than simply dismissing them as crazies and taking away their membership card, though, perhaps Christians (and Muslims) should stop and examine why their supposedly benign, loving faith breeds so many people full of hate.

I'll get the ball rolling: one of the problems with Christianity (and all of the other Abrahamic faiths) is that since their scriptures were written/edited over the course of 2,000 years by hundreds of different people, each with their own voices, problems, and axes to grind, a) you can interpret those scriptures to justify just about any ridiculous act in the name of God (see slavery, mass murder, devaluing of women, homophobia, etc.) and b) they were written by primitive versions of ourselves, many of whose ideals and worldviews don't apply to modern humanity (though many Christians would be well-served by re-reading the part about "judge not lest ye be judged").

Don't mean to come off as self-righteous and/or totally down on Christians/monotheists. I may be agnostic/humanist/deist/whatever the word of the week is for non-spiritual, but I have no personal beef against those of faith and try hard not to pick fights with reasonable non-idiots. With that said, I do firmly believe that we're never going to put forth reasonable solutions to the problems of the modern world until we accept that closed-minded faith in absolutes is a deterrant to compromise and acceptance.





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"Re(3):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 04:59post reply

quote:

(...or the more recent 1996 bombings in Atlanta?)


Wasn't that Atlanta situation more of an outside case? Some crazy person just looking for trouble, with no cause.

quote:
Christians are HISTORICALLY the worst of the bunch...


They're also historically the biggest and therefore have had their share of black sheep amongst the flock.

I'm a firm believer that God is the greatest concept in this universe and Religion is far from that pillar. It's a shame when anyone twists such overall wholesome concepts to the point of hypocracy.

The people of London are a hardy bunch, having survived V2 rockets and bombing raids in the past. But they can't stay as safe from terrorists who will be willing to attack the very subway tunnels they took shelter in during those times. It will be a larger tragedy if their spirit is broken by any subsequent attacks.

Oh, and adding to that thing about former US attacks linked to Bin Laden, don't forget the previous attempt at bombing the lower structure of the Twin Towers which failed.
Clinton had a clear chance at taking Bin Laden out after activity like that, but balked at the thought of any potential civilian casualties adding to his Monica scandal and future impeachment.





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"Re(3):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 05:59post reply

Mr. Falcon
1992 - to bring an end to the Western occupation of Islamic lands

quote:

I remember 2 Al Quaeda attacks, apart from the WTC bombing Holiday mentioned: A motorboat-bomb crashed into a US ship, suicide style. Also, the bombings in the US embassy in... Nigeria, maybe?



There where two seperate bomings in Kenya and Tanzania. If you count those individualy, I can think of five attacks: Yemon car bombing, 1st WTC, USS Cole. There are other attacks that could potentially be linked to Osama as well, but I don't remember if his involvement was proven in those or just speculated.





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"Re(6):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 06:14:post reply

quote:
Now allow me to clarify my point: just because they do things you and I don't think are Christian acts doesn't mean you get to withdraw their status as Christian.
The Cathecism of the Catholic Church talks about a "Just War Theory", a series of considerations that would make a war justified. It was taken into public light after the WTC incidents. No matter how much you read the bible, Jesus teaching go against ANY kind of use of violence, even in self defense (as unpopular as that is, but hey, christian life is supposed to be the hard path). But it still exists inside of the catholic teachings.

Does that makes the Catholic Church less christian?





[this message was edited by Rid on Sat 9 Jul 06:14]

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"Re(6):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 06:29:post reply

quote:
I do firmly believe that we're never going to put forth reasonable solutions to the problems of the modern world until we accept that closed-minded faith in absolutes is a deterrant to compromise and acceptance.



OT:
So you're saying all monotheistic religions are obstacles to world peace. Unlike new age faiths and stuff that embrace the claim that all religions lead to the same God. Well, this is an entirely different beast and we're all free to make our own choices.

"If they say they're Christian, they're Christian, regardless of their actions."

No offence but that statement is completely illogical. I stand by my previous statement that being a Christian is determined by your words, actions, and beliefs. (all 3) There is no membership card. The status of being a "Christian" is something only known between you and God. I could be a satanist and a canibal. How would you know otherwise? Going to church, reading the Bible, praying, acting like a Christian in front of other people...none of these things mean that you are a Christian. What matters is what's in your heart. "If they say they're Christian, they're Christian no matter what they do?" No. That's like saying "if they say they're vegetarians, they're vegetarians even though they're eating juicy steaks."

Also it's not something fundamentally wrong with the beliefs of Christianity that "breeds" messed up people. It's definitely true that Christians and the church have committed many wrongs throughout history. But then they've also done lots of good. Christians are "people" and human beings are fallible. Churches are also composed of fallible beings. Christianity is a "relationship" with God. And all Christians struggle with this relationship and fall in and out of it throughout their lives. (kinda like couples do) That's what makes us human- the struggle. Some overcome this struggle but many don't.

But to place the blame of some people's mistakes upon the belief itself to claim that Christianity breeds these kinds of people is foolish. Are you really trying to say that Christianity breeds murderers and pillagers? It's the people not the belief.





[this message was edited by Phoenix on Sat 9 Jul 06:39]

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"Re(4):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 07:06:post reply

quote:
But they can't stay as safe from terrorists who will be willing to attack the very subway tunnels they took shelter in during those times. It will be a larger tragedy if their spirit is broken by any subsequent attacks.
Don't forget IRA bombings (who recieved most of their money from U.S. donations! The U.S. public was the IRA's number one financial supplier, and Moammar Gadhafi was their main weapons supplier. Quite a team up!)

Edit: I think Orochiyashiro is saying that Christian religious texts both extoll violence AND condemn it; it all depends on which pieces you choose to believe. It's also a living document; parts which are considered to be no longer culturally appropriate are often expunged (as the story of Lilith, or mentionings of the Behemoth and Leviathan, who are often changed to "hippo" and "crocodile" respectively in many modern versions). So DEPENDING ON WHICH PARTS of the bible you choose to obey, they're debateably good christians. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if texts of their time were considerably more forceful in terms of how to react to "heathens", as it's a consistently changing document. Also, remember that according to Catholicism, the Pope is the voice of God on Earth and has "Papal Infalliability", which means what he says becomes Church Doctrine; if he says "Destroy the Heathen", that's the official line of the Church. Can you really say people of the time were "bad Christians" when they were essentially obeying exactly what Church Doctrine dictates? Is one branch of Christianity "better" than another because they take a different interpretation of the Bible? Getting back to the "sense of righteousness" issue, has anybody read Frederick Douglass' autobiography? As he observes, "the masters who prayed the hardest were invariably the most cruel." It all gets back to the "if you believe you're right on RELIGIOUS grounds, you can do pretty much anything" concept.

For the record, my personal belief is that there IS probably some sort of god or god-like beings out there; every religion humans have created is wrong, IMO.(humans DO create religions; Judaism and thus Christianity borrows heavily from Zoroastrianism, and the Hebrews were originally a polytheistic people anyway; they changed to a monotheistic people as their lifestyle changed and they became town-builders rather than nomadic sheep herders; their war-god "Yaweh" eventually became their sole God and his roles changed, although they still included a heavy dose of violence. Most of the Abrahamic religions are "elitist" in that "only those who follow will achieve salvation"; this was essentially a tool created by the Hebrews to make themselves feel better about how they were consistently trampled by all of the technologically superior peoples who surrounded them) Now, I KNOW this post will offend some people, but that's not my intent, and I recognize religions are capable of good, too. Just think of this as the observations of a neutral party on why religious fervor can be very dangerous.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Sat 9 Jul 08:29]

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"Re(7):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 08:06post reply

quote:
It's definitely true that Christians and the church have committed many wrongs throughout history. But then they've also done lots of good. Christians are "people" and human beings are fallible. Churches are also composed of fallible beings. Christianity is a "relationship" with God. And all Christians struggle with this relationship and fall in and out of it throughout their lives. (kinda like couples do) That's what makes us human- the struggle. Some overcome this struggle but many don't.

But to place the blame of some people's mistakes upon the belief itself to claim that Christianity breeds these kinds of people is foolish. Are you really trying to say that Christianity breeds murderers and pillagers? It's the people not the belief.




I couldn't agree more, Phoenix. What an emotive reply, it moved me deeply...





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"Re(8):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 08:12post reply

Regarding what Red Falcon said, I think that the problem is not that they are Christians/Muslims/Jews or not at the eyes of the others, but the fact that they think they are and believe so fanatically in what those religions teach, that they make their own twisted interpretation just to justify the acts they commit.

It doesn't matter if Muslims doesn't consider Bin Laden a true believer: He think he is a true believer, and will do anything to harm the enemies of the Muslim, using his own wrong and twisted interpretations of the Koran.





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"Re(9):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 08:15:post reply

quote:

It doesn't matter if Muslims doesn't consider Bin Laden a true believer: He think he is a true believer, and will do anything to harm the enemies of the Muslim, using his own wrong and twisted interpretations of the Koran.

EXACTLY, but depending on what parts of the Koran (or any religious text you believe) it's debateable whether they're actually "twisted" or not. Most Abrahamic religious texts are very vague and don't make a lot of sense, and can thus be interpreted any number of ways. This is obviously not meant to bash them or anything, but it's true; that's why there are religious debates within these respective religions almost constantly. They're arguing over just how things are meant to be interpreted or what they actually mean.

Edit: I realize I've gone AMAZINGLY off topic, I'll try and stop. Hopefully some clues will be found that might lead the investigators to the bombers; those unexploded devices might be a BIG help, as the cell-phone used as a timer in one of the Madrid bombs was.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Sat 9 Jul 08:37]

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"Re(9):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 09:13post reply

quote:
It doesn't matter if Muslims doesn't consider Bin Laden a true believer: He think he is a true believer, and will do anything to harm the enemies of the Muslim, using his own wrong and twisted interpretations of the Koran.


Muslims can't fight out of their land.Muslims cant harm innocent people.Thats what koran told us.If someone attack your country - by getting in the country- then you fight back make them get out of your country completely.you cant go their country and fight there to defence yourself.and usame bin ladin is not a real muslim whatever he says.He is just saying im muslim and im fighting for islam and all he does is break the rules of koran.

Simply in our religion its forbidden to kill someone who is not attacking you to kill at that moment.





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"answer" , posted Sat 9 Jul 16:14post reply

My thoughts are with the Londoners & all those wrongly affected.

Its hidden, so you others should answer too before you highlight!:


Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
1996, 6

End of Spoiler


If you want to type something I didn't, I think there's bonus points if you list what each of them were.

Arg! Making me post things!! ;-) Don't make me post anymore until late July.






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"Re(7):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 16:34post reply

This will be my last post on the matter... it almost feels disrespectful to quarrel over minutia given the original subject.
quote:
No offence but that statement is completely illogical. I stand by my previous statement that being a Christian is determined by your words, actions, and beliefs.
And I stand by my response that that's the standard cop-out used to disassociate yourself from the less desirable elements of Christianity.
quote:
The status of being a "Christian" is something only known between you and God.
I see. So how exactly does that disprove my "If they say they're Christian, they're Christian" point? Do you know who's talking to God and who's not? If you're one of the new-wave, "personal relationship with Jesus" Christians that don't particularly care about dogma, then you have no right to judge who's Christian and who's not. If Jesus told them to kill people, who are you to say they're wrong? If you don't, then I'm pretty sure you're making that assessment based on the teachings of the bible, which we've already discussed as being contradictory and highly unreliable for point-proving.

My point: monotheistic religions deal in the language of absolutes (black and white, good and evil, us and them) and circular logic and are counter-productive when you're trying to solve complex problems in the real world where there's more gray than anything else.

That and I'm bitter because they single-handedly destroyed human sexuality. ;)

Once again, I'm not trying to dump on any one faith and certainly not you in particular, Phoenix. You seem like a decent enough guy and I'm sure your faith helps you in your day to day life in some way. I've spent so many years studying the cultural and historical aspects of religion (which fascinate me to no end) that it's difficult to gather any sort of enthusiasm for spirituality.





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KTallguy
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"Re(8):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sun 10 Jul 00:48post reply

What's the formal definition of a Christian?





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"Re(9):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sun 10 Jul 01:45post reply

quote:
What's the formal definition of a Christian?

A guy that expects somebody else to actually read the Bible and explain it to him.





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"Re(10):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sun 10 Jul 09:45post reply

hahah! Good one !





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"Re(8):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sun 10 Jul 21:57:post reply

"If Jesus told them to kill people, who are you to say they're wrong?"

I really have nothing to say to this.

"If you don't, then I'm pretty sure you're making that assessment based on the teachings of the bible, which we've already discussed as being contradictory and highly unreliable for point-proving."

The validity/accuracy/etc. of the Bible is a whole field of its own and something that has been studied for thousands of years. And suffice to say that the book has withstood the test of time. It's the most scrutinized/attacked/defended book ever and the most widely read/distributed book ever. That and I disagree with the claim of it being contradictory/highly unreliable for point proving etc. I suppose the best way would be to read/study the book ourselves. Quite honestly, I still haven't finished the whole thing. But the thing has been written over the span of thousands of years by more than 40 different authors and yet it's consistent throughout. I understand your point about monotheistic religions being black and white though. It's just the nature of the beast. I also happen to have respect for you fyi and thx for the discussion. Sorry about late reply and resurrecting the thread with OT, I was away for a few days. *leaves self open to various earring bombs, SABs, and V slashers*





[this message was edited by Phoenix on Sun 10 Jul 22:12]