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| Baines
80th Post
 
Occasional Customer
  
|  "Re(2):New SS Tenka loke tests" , posted Sat 28 May 05:43
quote:
I can't believe some of the character art they're using. I mean, in most cases it's not even for characters I like, so I shouldn't care, but it just looks so...badly drawn! Far too many characters look horribly generic.
In the case of the portraits and other pictures, it looks like they are trying to copy the art style of the first two games.
For facial portraits, Tam Tam's mask looks the same as SS1 artwork. Kyoshiro has that "real guy in facepaint" look that he had in SS1 and SS2 artwork. Jubei and Wan-Fu as well.
Nakoruru, Charlotte, Haohmaru, and Ukyo look similar to the old style as well, though you can see a difference. The Tenka pictures are a bit simpler(?) or just more "generic simple anime"(?) than the attempted realism of the various SS1 and SS2 artwork. Nakoruru in the promo poster looks pretty close old artwork of her as well, just in a more simplistic (or cleaner but duller) anime style than the originals.
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| Baines
83th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(2):just a second" , posted Sat 28 May 17:18:
quote:
This is Alpha 3. Anything goes.
It is one of my biggest problems with Alpha 3, that characters felt like they escaped some comedy game. Street Fighter has always had "weird" characters in the mix (Blanka in SF2, Rose in SFA, DeeJay, Dan, etc), but Alpha 3 threw sense out the window. Complete joke Blanka, jailbird Cody, R Mika, the whole clone and psycho drive storyline... It didn't feel like Street Fighter anymore.
SamSho has done the same a few times already. The changes in 3 and further in 4. (Shizumaru escaped from an anime. Kazuki and Sogetsu are boring.) SS0 goes even further with its new additions, of which most or even all feel like they came from other games or sources. And now Tenka is not only going even further, they are further recycling old sprites for that real SFA3 design clash feel (and adding a bunch of modes ala SFA3)?
[this message was edited by Baines on Sat 28 May 17:23] |
| Ultima 398th Post
Silver Customer
  
 
| "Philistine (Was: Re(3):just a second)" , posted Sun 29 May 00:47
It is one of my biggest problems with Alpha 3, that characters felt like they escaped some comedy game. Street Fighter has always had "weird" characters in the mix (Blanka in SF2, Rose in SFA, DeeJay, Dan, etc), but Alpha 3 threw sense out the window. Complete joke Blanka, jailbird Cody, R Mika, the whole clone and psycho drive storyline... It didn't feel like Street Fighter anymore.
Jailbird Cody was one of the most brilliant design choices Capcom has ever done. They took one of their most boring character concepts and instantly made him fresh and interesting. The outfit did take a while to get used to though.
And Dan was not "weird". He was a joke. From the beginning he was meant to be a joke, but Capcom made him a little too good in SFA for anyone to notice. He just continues the trend in SFA2/3. It's kinda sad they drew Blanka into the mix by making them friends, but oh well. Much like SF2, SFA3 was actually quite balanced in its seriousness-to-sillyness stuff.
> SamSho has done the same a few times already. The changes in 3 and further in 4. (Shizumaru escaped from an anime. Kazuki and Sogetsu are boring.)
The character additions in SS3/4 were fine. Quite fitting with SS ("escaped from an anime"? You talk as if Shizumaru was the first one. Have you never seen Ninja Scroll and noted the similarity between it and SS?). No, what SNK did was foolishly and needlessly tear apart the perfectly good system they had in SS2 and replaced it with a bunch of rubbish. And they built on that rubbish foundation in SS4 instead of removing it entirely and starting from scratch. With SS0 they finally got rid of most of the taint of SS3/4 and replaced it with some good stuff.
I'm a little worried about trying to incorporate all of the crap back into the game in the form of grooves, but I shall need to play it myself to confirm. But right now, the SS3 and SS4 modes had better have their damage nerfed because otherwise I see them ruling the game.
> SS0 goes even further with its new additions, of which most or even all feel like they came from other games or sources.
It's nothing new, really. They've done it before. And who cares as long as it plays well, like SS0/SS0S did/do?
> And now Tenka is not only going even further, they are further recycling old sprites for that real SFA3 design clash feel (and adding a bunch of modes ala SFA3)?
If this game turns out to be even remotely as good/popular as SFA3, it would be only be to its benefit (not that SFA3 didn't have its share of problems, the biggest of which was the bad hit detection, followed by CC infinites, but it was still one of the better SF games and its one of my favourites).
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Ultima - The Right arm of Scrub Voltron
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| Baines
84th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(1):Philistine (Was: just a second)" , posted Sun 29 May 05:43
quote:
Jailbird Cody was one of the most brilliant design choices Capcom has ever done. They took one of their most boring character concepts and instantly made him fresh and interesting.
Fresh and interesting? I almost expect to see Charlie Chaplin or the Marx Brothers in his ending.
Final Fight Cody was fairly generic, being the blond t-shirt and jeans American. That just means he has potential for a serious design. Jailbird Cody isn't that design. Graphically, he is in the same ludicrous style as R Mika. It is as if Capcom wanted to either insult the character or were just afraid people would think him a Terry Bogard clone.
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And Dan was not "weird". He was a joke. From the beginning he was meant to be a joke, but Capcom made him a little too good in SFA for anyone to notice.
Everyone noticed Dan was meant to be a joke. The difference is that he was a quite playable character and people liked the extra challenge. Apparently Capcom, after finding him to actually be a decent character, decided to go to extra efforts to remove that quality in future appearances.
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"escaped from an anime"? You talk as if Shizumaru was the first one. Have you never seen Ninja Scroll and noted the similarity between it and SS?
Characters like Nicotine still fit the established style of the game. Jubei Ninja Chronicles looked as much like SS as the reverse.
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No, what SNK did was foolishly and needlessly tear apart the perfectly good system they had in SS2 and replaced it with a bunch of rubbish. And they built on that rubbish foundation in SS4 instead of removing it entirely and starting from scratch.
There was more to the differences than just the engine change. The change in importance in storyline not only causes problems for purists, but it also affects actual character designs and evolutions. The series became more Japan-centric, and the world feeling is lost in character designs present. The series loses a bit of focus and starts to run together.
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With SS0 they finally got rid of most of the taint of SS3/4 and replaced it with some good stuff.
Like playable Poppy? Arrow spam girl? The Kenshin version of Asura? A boss less inspired than Zankuro and twice as annoying? (What happened to the days of original Amakusa and Mizuki, where you felt like it was a relatively fair fight? Well, until Amakusa runaway teleports the last 10 seconds of a match.)
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It's nothing new, really. They've done it before. And who cares as long as it plays well, like SS0/SS0S did/do?
More than a few people might disagree that SS0 plays well. And though I don't like it, support for SS2 or SS4 being the better game has generally been split fairly 50/50.
quote:
If this game turns out to be even remotely as good/popular as SFA3, it would be only be to its benefit (not that SFA3 didn't have its share of problems, the biggest of which was the bad hit detection, followed by CC infinites, but it was still one of the better SF games and its one of my favourites).
Personally, I wouldn't use "good" in reference to SFA3. For me, it marks the bottom of the Alpha series in quality and design, and I also find it to be one of the worst (and my least favorite) SF games in general. It is Capcom not caring, and just throwing everything together rather than really trying.
And there isn't any chance of Tenka being as popular as SFA3. For one thing, it isn't Street Fighter. The only real chance it would have at this point in 2D fighter life is if Playmore did a Guilty Gear X on the graphics and the engine both, and still kept a healthy sized roster.
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| Spoon 1014th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
    
 
| "Re(2):Philistine (Was: just a second)" , posted Sun 29 May 06:10
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Personally, I wouldn't use "good" in reference to SFA3. For me, it marks the bottom of the Alpha series in quality and design, and I also find it to be one of the worst (and my least favorite) SF games in general.
When stuff like this starts flying out (and it already did a heckuva lot earlier...), then there is no longer any room or possibility for debate. So I suggest we all stop spamming the thread with non-debate and instead return to Imoya hate, which is still hip xxx years running.
But since mmcafe is full of irrationality, I will contribute to the "debate": people that think SFA3 is a bad game are wrong. At the very least, I fail to see how SFA1 is a better game than SFA3, or how the customs in SFA2 make it a "better" game than SFA3 (which is not the same as saying they make it a "worse" game). Yes, yes, the CC infinites can get pretty lame pretty fast, but you might also suddenly realize that you can either agree not to use them or set the games to be best 3/5, which gives each player more chances at getting BS wins. Hey, it works in T5 where you regularly lose 30-40% of your health off of basic combos with 120% life, and that's not even getting into the wall combos and stuff. And let's not get started on blah blah character design!!! because those "debates" always reek of idiocy.
...and a ghostly Charlie Chaplain would be an awesome fighting game character.
And just what DOES the robot look like? Anybody have some pictures/footage of him?
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| Rid 6650th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
     
    
| "Re(2):Philistine (Was: just a second)" , posted Sun 29 May 06:46
(I just want to do one of these fancy point by point replies, so nonsense comes now.)
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Jailbird Cody was one of the most brilliant design choices Capcom has ever done. They took one of their most boring character concepts and instantly made him fresh and interesting.
But, what about the people that want Tyris Flare to be a playable character? It's not fair, specially due to the early death of the Conan-styled games and the designers of her GA2 and GA3 sprite.
And I know she's from a Sega game, but I'm not an Eternal Champions fan. And much less of its X-Perts spinoff.
quote:
And Dan was not "weird". He was a joke. From the beginning he was meant to be a joke, but Capcom made him a little too good in SFA for anyone to notice.
Like the atheist, dislexic, insomniac, who stays awake late at night wondering if there really is a dog. Now THAT is a joke character. Not like I can´t do better jokes, I'm just not in the mood.
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"escaped from an anime"? You talk as if Shizumaru was the first one. Have you never seen Ninja Scroll and noted the similarity between it and SS?
But why did he escaped? Who was chasing him? Why nobody tells me? And I still have to see the point about ninja scroll. It is fun, but not nearly as fun as fan say. Then again I like Samurai Champloo so don't mind me.
If somebody escapes from an anime I just hope it's a cute girl like Fuu, and not a shotakon-friendly unbrella-fetish boy.
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No, what SNK did was foolishly and needlessly tear apart the perfectly good system they had in SS2 and replaced it with a bunch of rubbish. And they built on that rubbish foundation in SS4 instead of removing it entirely and starting from scratch.
If they teared it apart, that means that you can't play SS2 anymore? Strangely rubbish is defined as "Foolish discourse; nonsense." which really applies to internet arguing.
If SNK has to tear apart something, I vote for Shermie's dress. Or Iori's trendy haircut.
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With SS0 they finally got rid of most of the taint of SS3/4 and replaced it with some good stuff.
They got ME??? That explains why people like the game so much! And if by good stuff you mean Mina's pantsu, you have the support of most on Japan on those.
quote:
If this game turns out to be even remotely as good/popular as SFA3, it would be only be to its benefit (not that SFA3 didn't have its share of problems, the biggest of which was the bad hit detection, followed by CC infinites, but it was still one of the better SF games and its one of my favourites).
The Karin fandom someday will conquer the galaxy. No matter how the game plays, if she's in, it can't be bad.
But... they removed Rose's best palette from SFA2, sadly. Nobody is perfect I guess.
Well, nobody but Karin.
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| Baines
86th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Mizuki" , posted Sun 29 May 06:57
quote:
My eyes are bleeding.
Mizuki had some evil tricks, and could be difficult, but I never felt like I was cheated when I lost to her.
She was no Rugal, with Genocide Cutters launching the moment you even thought of attacking. While her happy fun ball super hurt, it was nothing like what guys like Igniz would later do. She had high damage normals, but it was an SS game where nearly everyone had high damage normals. She doesn't turn invulnerable for half the match. She doesn't hide offscreen, unlike Capcom's version of Onslaught. She doesn't kill you 1.5 seconds into the match. The rules of the game don't actually change when you fight her.
(Nor does she have insane power that she either doesn't use or which she can't use well. Unlike Justice, Gill, Orochi, and plenty of other bosses.)
Sure, SS3 Zankuro was a lot easier than Mizuki (thanks in part to how heavily basic pattern based SS3 was), but he wasn't as "fair" to me as Mizuki. Heck, he was even designed so that the back infinites that worked on everyone else didn't work on him. And though it has been quite a long time, wasn't there a funkiness on there being a final win or lose round with him, rather than just a standard two of three match?
Mizuki was one of the few fighting game bosses I actually liked to fight, being a challenge without feeling like a cheat, while also not breaking down into simple patterns. (There are things you can do to her though.)
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| Spoon 1018th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(3):Philistine (Was: just a second)" , posted Sun 29 May 12:42:
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The Karin fandom someday will conquer the galaxy. No matter how the game plays, if she's in, it can't be bad.
CFJ is really testing the limits on this.
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Iori's trendy haircut
I've always wondered about stuff like this. Iori was introduced... in like '94? Or was it 1995? Anyway, at least 10 years ago.
TEN YEARS AGO.
And yet even today, he still seems pretty cool, and not for reasons like, "he embodies an 80's cliche" (which he doesn't). Now, it's a different thing to say that his KOF sprite looks dated (which it does). But how is it that Iori's haircut manages too to not look like a ridiculous anachronism? And I don't happen to see rockers every day, either.
I should say something related to the original topic.
The robot looks neato, but I'd like even more to see him (it?) in action. I wonder if it will play Go with me.
[this message was edited by Spoon on Sun 29 May 12:53] |
| Iggy 6594th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Philistine (Was: just a second)" , posted Sun 29 May 16:49:
quote:
how the customs in SFA2 make it a "better" game than SFA3 (which is not the same as saying they make it a "worse" game).
I don't like any game of the series, but my hate for grooves/modes/Ism makes me prefer the second.
As for Mizuki
quote:
She doesn't kill you 1.5 seconds into the match.
Objkection to that.
So, yeah, she was a great boss, with a clever AI and all, and they don't do bosses like that now, the bosses now are cheap and ugly, I totally agree with that.
But the cheap bosses of today are beatable if you go in pattern mode.
Of course, I may be just a very bad SSS player, but I only beat Mizuki twice, and I remember the number of times I won, but then I had to win a second round and all my hopes vanished. Mizuki was classy, clever, with good weapons and all, and to me she was the second most difficult boss ever (the first being Geese in AoF2).
quote:
Mizuki was one of the few fighting game bosses I actually liked to fight, being a challenge without feeling like a cheat, while also not breaking down into simple patterns. (There are things you can do to her though.)
So, yes, we agree that she was the greatestest of all. But please agree that she was incredibly hard.
ねんがんの ネ申ゲーをてにいれたぞ！
[this message was edited by Iggy on Sun 29 May 17:09] |
| Baines
87th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(4):Philistine (Was: just a second)" , posted Sun 29 May 17:50
quote:
But the cheap Ignitz and other bosses fomr nowaday are easy because they have dicernable patterns that make them easy to beat once you see them. With dedication, you can beat them in a few tries.
But you don't beat them through skill. You beat them because you found exploits in their scripting. Sometimes by doing almost nonsensical actions.
Worse, the odds become so incredibly stacked at times that you may almost be forced to use exploits to beat them. At that point you aren't even playing the original fighting game, you are forced into playing some puzzle game devolved subset.
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Of course, I may be just a very bad SSS player, but I only beat Mizuki twice, and I remember the number of times I won, but then I had to win a second round and all my hopes vanished.
Perhaps we have a slightly different view from my playing primarily Nakoruru. Nak, being underpowered, found several CPU matchups in SS2 to be difficult. Mizuki was only the end of a long and difficult journey, and wasn't really too much beyond the rest in difficulty. CPU Genjuro has killed me faster than Mizuki ever tried. And while technically not a boss, I would judge Kuroko as more difficult than Mizuki.
Though not the fairest comparison due to different power levels, I one credited SS2 from start to finish with Nakoruru only once, while I could one credit SS3 almost in my sleep simply from knowing simple exploitable patterns for every CPU matchup. No infinites, no even moderate combos, not even a complex thought. In the case of Zankuro, I'd even got in the habit of letting (outright baiting actually) him connect his POW move just because I had a followup finish that I liked. Despite Zankuro being mind-numbingly easier than Mizuki, I find Mizuki to be the fairer fight between the two.
quote:
So, yes, we agree that she was the greatestest of all. But please agree that she was incredibly hard.
I didn't say she wasn't hard, just that she was a relatively "fair" fight for a CPU boss. Hard and fair aren't exclusive. Whenever I challenged a better human player than myself, I expected the match to be hard but also fair. (Not counting human cheating, or insane differences, or the like.)
Personally, I'd prefer more "fair" bosses than the overpowered but exploitable variety most games have.
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| Nate 563th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(5):Philistine (Was: just a second)" , posted Sun 29 May 18:38
quote:
I think Mizuki and Rugal from KOF '94 were the best and hardest bosses to beat. I remember that I played KOF '94 for 3 years straight a long time ago... and I was only able to beat Rugal a total of 4 times during that time on one credit. Mizuki... well, I never really was good enough to beat her, or the game itself, on one credit. I did see half the endings by virtue of watching my friend play.
The only character I can beat Mizuki as fairly consistently (yes, one-credit even on really lucky runs) is of course Hahaan (Charlotte). I'm not really sure why. Even then, Mizuki can be a nightmare sometimes. What I find strange, though, is that occasionally when you get to Mizuki she'll play very dumb and let herself get smacked around by things she never would other times.
Nonetheless, I don't feel like Mizuki has any attacks that are too good or ones you can't find a way around, unlike later SNK bosses. Some characters get thrown a lot more against her, but you just have to play more carefully. I've never felt like she was made to be stupidly powerful; rather, she is a challenging boss who plays intelligently (usually). If only Imoya could get their act together and put together bosses that don't simply throw unavoidable overprioritized crap at you all the time.
ワンダフル! ビューティフル! エキサイティング!
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| Iggy 6597th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Philistine (Was: just a second)" , posted Sun 29 May 19:37:
quote:
The only character I can beat Mizuki as fairly consistently (yes, one-credit even on really lucky runs) is of course Hahaan (Charlotte).
Lucky guy... the only character I managed to beat her in 1 credit was.. Hanzô, the guy I never picked (it was a mistake from the start).
I think the other time I beat her was either with Genj or with Kabuki, I don't remember. Maybe Nicotine ? Meeeeh.
Speaking of this, I have a long story of picking characters I don't like and finish a game with them. I used to hate Dahlsim, until in SFZero2, the random gave him to me and I beat the game straight easily (it was maybe the 3rd time I played the game ?)
Also, in TRF1 on PS2, I took Sheryl, but I hadn't trained to see her moves, I kinda forgot she was supposed to be a really technical character.
I tried her commands during the first matches, understood a few basic tricks, and 1 credited the game, even Hazama, without problem.
Meh.
ねんがんの ネ申ゲーをてにいれたぞ！
[this message was edited by Iggy on Sun 29 May 19:46] |
| Ultima 401th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(6):Philistine (Was: just a second)" , posted Wed 1 Jun 03:58
Reply to what Baines said:
re: SFA3
People *who are actually good at Street Fighter* are split on whether SFA3 or SFA2 is the better game. SFA2 has a hideously boringly top tier and stupidly powerful CCS and ACs. SFA3 has awful hit detection and CC infinites. It's a matter of which bothers you less. Both have their pros and cons. Me, I prefer A3. However, NO ONE in their right mind thinks that SFA3 is a worse game than SFA1, though. If you think SFA1 is a better game than SFA3, you need to show me this mutant version of SFA1, cause it doesn't exist in this plane of existence.
re: Cody
In terms of design, Cody was only a slight update to Joe, possibly the most generic and boring characters Capcom has ever created. SFA3 Cody's storyline direction and change of character turned him from "Joe Street Fighter" with no personality to "Fallen Hero" with actual character traits. Okay, the jailbird outfit was kinda dumb. I'll grant that. But I got used to it. Everything else about the redeign is brilliant.
re: Mizuki
First of all, Mizuki had dumb patterns just like most other bosses. The simplest pattern I know of to beat Mizuki is with Galford/Hanzo = just teleport behing her and piledrive her ass (a pattern that works against mnay CPU opponents actually). I've gotten double perfects against Mizuki with that. Some characters can easily just poke her to death, like Gen-an and Earthquake.
But even with all of that, I would claim that Mizuki is NOT fair. She's the fairest of the SS bosses, but that doesn't mean that she's "fair". She reads controller inputs, which is NEVER fair. You do something, then she can counter it perfectly. Baines claims she doesn't turn invincible for half the match - obviously he doesn't remember when Mizuki goes into teleporting sprees, where she IS, in fact, invincible. Especially if you throw a projectile from full screen - before you even finish the motion, she's already teleporting behind you, even if you knocked her down first. Even in a game that is rife with dash & throw abuse, she's very difficult to throw, but she has no trouble throwing you repeatedly. She also has that annoying habit of going into "block everything you do, then counter for big damage; if you do nothing, walk up and throw" mode, that few characters can stop if she's determined to do it. The only reason why Mizuki is beatable is because she's doesn't abuse her powers as often like some other bosses, and sometimes she goes into stupid mode and just doesn't do anything. But at least half the time when I beat her, I get the feeling that I'm winning by luck, not skill. I can beat her on 1 credit one time, and then spend 15 credits trying to beat her next time using the same tactics.
So no sir, Mizuki is not fair either. She IS the best SS boss though.
(Oh, and Kuroko is much worse than Mizuki. Smarter AI, even harder to throw, and way WAY more powerful arsenal. I've beaten him with Hanzo/Galford teleport-SPD pattern, but it's random. Never beaten him with anyone else).
SS3 Zankuro is even more unfair, because all he does is block and counter. But then again, he dies to endless crouching kicks. He's an awful boss.
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Ultima - The Right arm of Scrub Voltron
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