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jiji
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"Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and you" , posted Mon 23 May 12:02:post reply

So it has come out that Sengoku Basara will be heavily modified for its US release as Devil Kings. All characters will be renamed so that they no longer have the names of Japanese historical figures, and the setting will no longer be feudal Japan. Nobunaga is now "Devil King," Yukimura Sanada is "Scorpio," Takeda Shingen is "Red Minotaur," Nouhime is "Lady Butterfly." Capcom's Hiroyuki Kobayashi explains:

quote:
In Japan, Devil Kings is called Sengoku Basara, and it focuses on Japanese history in the same sense that Dynasty Warriors focuses on Chinese history. So it's similar in that sense, but with a Capcom style, a Capcom flair to it.

We took the concept, and said, "What can we do to differentiate this to make this different from the Dynasty Warriors games?" And we decided the secret maybe lay in some other games Capcom has done. We said, "Let's give the characters a kind of Devil May Cry flair -- some really cool moves, like the kind of things you might see in Devil May Cry. Let's the characters and make them all vastly and distinctly different from one another, like Street Fighter II." That's the Japanese version.

Then, we said, "Okay, let's release it in North America -- what can we do to make it different again?" So we said, "Okay, we'll make it dark." Call it Devil Kings. The main character sold his soul to the devil. We'll darken up the background, give more moves, more ability to power your character up, and things like that for the American market.

IGN: Plus it's not historically accurate?

Kobayashi: The Japanese version of the game is based on Japanese history. There are some fantasy elements that didn't actually happen, of course, but enough of it is there.

With the U.S. version, we've taken that element out entirely. Some of the backgrounds may retain that eastern flair. Many of them don't and are brand new; many of the enemies are brand new; and it's no longer based around the idea of feudal Japan at all. That part of the game has now been changed to be darker, devilish.


So, since obviously no stupid Americans care a whit about Japanese history, Sengoku Basara will be turned into a fake Devil May Cry game so that it (Capcom hopes) will sell better in the US. I'd honestly thought that games like Onimusha, Kessen, and Samurai Warriors would make Japanese history more accepted and widely known in the US, but obviously Dante's dong is bigger.

This reminds me of modifications done to games in the 8- and 16-bit days, like with SMB2, Ranma 1/2/Street Combat, Magical Hat Adventure/Decap Attack, Contra/Probotector, Puyo Puyo/Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine, and so on. Guess we're not out of those days yet.





[this message was edited by jiji on Mon 23 May 15:30]

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kurushimi
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"Re(1):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Mon 23 May 12:12:post reply

You know, the real kick in the nuts is that they're actually adding features to the US version, so I can't just immediately decide to import it. Do I sacrifice extra enemies and weapons to retain the purity of the backdrop?

And I wonder if Capcom would pull a Square and re-release this new version in Japan as Gaijin-Edition.

Tale of Genji is suddenly starting to look better now...





[this message was edited by kurushimi on Mon 23 May 12:14]

Maou
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"Re(2):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Mon 23 May 13:11post reply

Gahahah, that does seem pretty insulting to the American audience, assuming they know what's been done to it. And the line, "Eastern flair??" Welcome to Orientalism, circa 1961. Population: Capcom.





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"Re(3):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Mon 23 May 16:46post reply

I remember a discution here with Sano I think, about Ôkami being too japanese with all those complicated names and all, and maybe he had a point.

Also, (the way I read it) they won't add ennemies, they will replace the japanese ennemies by dark american ennemies, so the american version won't have more things, it will have different things.





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kurushimi
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"Re(4):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Tue 24 May 05:02post reply

quote:
I remember a discution here with Sano I think, about Ôkami being too japanese with all those complicated names and all, and maybe he had a point.

Also, (the way I read it) they won't add ennemies, they will replace the japanese ennemies by dark american ennemies, so the american version won't have more things, it will have different things.



Hmmm, that might not be so bad then. I mean yes, I'm rather annoyed that they would have to Americanize a game to suit an audience, but most people don't really care what they're slashing/shooting/hitting, as long as it's fun. I guess I'm still insulted if only because I've taken East Asian History classes, so I actually can laugh and appreciate the liberties Capcom has taken with these Historical figures.



On Okami being too Japanese, I think that's more of a pronounciation barrier than anything else. I mean yes, Okami has all the Japanese mythology and mysticism going for it, but Otogi 1-2 did as well (albeit more loosely interpreted), and that didn't seem to be such an obstacle for American audiences.

There's a cultural barrier to be sure, but it's more along the lines of the types of games as opposed to the backdrop those games are made against. You know the usual suspects - dating sims and quirky titles like Yoshinoya. But even that is degrading, if the success of Katamari Damacy is any indication.

As a sidenote, if I ever run into someone who believed Romance of the Three Kingdoms was exactly as it happened in the Musou games, I would buy him/her a drink for providing me a good laugh.





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"Re(5):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Tue 24 May 07:00post reply

quote:
I remember a discution here with Sano I think, about Ôkami being too japanese with all those complicated names and all, and maybe he had a point.


I would hope that gamers would eventually get past that kind of thing. I mean, we have plenty of games with complicated, strange, and completely made up non-Japanese names.

Heck, actually keeping the original names after a while can itself become a link. How often do you run across historical or mythological names being used or reused in various games?

As well, games have been a success without changing things. Koei has an American success by actually keeping historical cultural references. They've been using RoTK since forever across various styles of games, and people *know* the characters and feel a connection in a new variation. While there has been a bit less of a flood of Nobunaga from Koei, it is there, and Nobunaga tends to be a subject for other games as well. Like, uhm, Capcom's own Onimusha?

quote:
Also, (the way I read it) they won't add ennemies, they will replace the japanese ennemies by dark american ennemies, so the american version won't have more things, it will have different things.


It does mention a power up system for the American version.

quote:
Hmmm, that might not be so bad then. I mean yes, I'm rather annoyed that they would have to Americanize a game to suit an audience, but most people don't really care what they're slashing/shooting/hitting, as long as it's fun.


Which is actually an argument against a need to change things. People don't care what they are hitting.

I'm not so sure it is an attempt to Americanize as much as it is an attempt to differentiate, and in the process they decide to Americanize. They seem to realize the game is going to be (and has been) seen as a Musou knock-off. They tried to make character designs and moves different in the Japanese version to counter, and are going even further in the US (where perhaps they think dumb Americans might think they are lifting the entire story rather than just the concept).

Which makes me wonder why they were making a Musou clone to begin with. I mean, it was obvious to them from the start, and now they are going through so much work to make it different. I guess they were hoping that at least in Japan the idea of being a Musou clone would bring them much more sales than actually being an original property.

quote:
As a sidenote, if I ever run into someone who believed Romance of the Three Kingdoms was exactly as it happened in the Musou games, I would buy him/her a drink for providing me a good laugh.


The Musou games change sections with each release, altering events and even general designs to staple areas. Though you still can find people who believe the general designs are accurate, like Zhang He.

You might find more that believe Romance of the Three Kingdoms was exactly as it happened in actual real history. (Or at least believe it more ferverently.)





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"Re(6):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Tue 24 May 19:45post reply

Another reason for the change of name would be ShinOnimusha.
Since this one is totally japanese (and a sequel to a well knows franchise), they may have thought it wasn't necessary to sell 2 japanese games in the US. And maybe it will lead them to keep japanese voices in Onimusha ? After all, they were in the E3 trailer.

Also, I'm a bit sad I won't be able to read the canon retards trying to put both Onimusha and Basara in the same continuity.





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"Re(6):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Wed 25 May 00:36post reply

I rather liked this quote from Kobayashi:

What I wanted to do this time is make a game that would really sell well in Japan.

He was talking about the differences between what has sold for Capcom in Japan verses what has done well overseas but I do like that one of his stated goals is to actually sell some games. It's nice to see a game maker come right out and state that.

quote:
I'm not so sure it is an attempt to Americanize as much as it is an attempt to differentiate, and in the process they decide to Americanize. They seem to realize the game is going to be (and has been) seen as a Musou knock-off. They tried to make character designs and moves different in the Japanese version to counter, and are going even further in the US (where perhaps they think dumb Americans might think they are lifting the entire story rather than just the concept).

Which makes me wonder why they were making a Musou clone to begin with. I mean, it was obvious to them from the start, and now they are going through so much work to make it different. I guess they were hoping that at least in Japan the idea of being a Musou clone would bring them much more sales than actually being an original property.



All the decisions made about this game feel like they came out of a committee, don't they? Go with a SM clone for the Japanese audience, tinker with the presentation to make it seem more like DMC for the Western audience... all of it feels very calculated. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad -I'm still looking forward to trying out the game- but it is a more conservative approach to making a game. Did someone at Capcom get sick of having artsy titles like Killer 7 on the roster that never actually seem to come out?

quote:
You might find more that believe Romance of the Three Kingdoms was exactly as it happened in actual real history. (Or at least believe it more ferverently.)


Those people amaze me. Out of all the things to get obsessive about a 14th century book written about events that may or may not have happened hundreds of years earlier seems like a strange choice.





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"Re(1):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Wed 25 May 01:48post reply

I just might have to get this.





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"Re(1):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Wed 25 May 04:11post reply

quote:

So, since obviously no stupid Americans care a whit about Japanese history, Sengoku Basara will be turned into a fake Devil May Cry game so that it (Capcom hopes) will sell better in the US. I'd honestly thought that games like Onimusha, Kessen, and Samurai Warriors would make Japanese history more accepted and widely known in the US, but obviously Dante's dong is bigger.


Actually, early on during the first day of the show, I saw Kobayashi standing in front of the game and asked him if Sengoku Basara and Devil Kings were the same game... but since we have that interview right there I'll just stop at name dropping. I also saw Dynasty Warriors series producer Tomoike at Koei that same day, but he looked to busy to just walk up at the time so I had to chat about the similarities between the games (not to mention some Onimusha/Ni-Oh intrigue) with a corporate VP.

Since I don't want to make too many name-dropping posts, I'll also mention that I stood around with Eiji Aonuma while had a few smokes at a media party. He seems like a decent enough guy.

I don't see anything wrong with retooling the title into Devil Kings, myself. I don't really need a Japanese faux-history lesson... plus they're putting some more work into the title as a result. They were already headed in an over-the-top, not very historical direction anyway (who was that chick with the mini-guns?). I'd say this is probably a better way to do it.

I don't really understand this talk about 'purity'... unless it refers to "pure cash-in on the popularity of Dynasty Warriors".

If it's fun, it's fun. I couldn't tell you though... I felt like I'd played it after glancing at the screen for a few minutes, so I didn't really feel a reason to pick up the controller.





/ / /

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"Re(7):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Wed 25 May 05:02post reply

quote:

Those people amaze me. Out of all the things to get obsessive about a 14th century book written about events that may or may not have happened hundreds of years earlier seems like a strange choice.



Well, historical accuracy is thrown up in the air with Three Kingdoms. You just have to say "I'll have to believe that this is what they believe". I'm very big on the book, though. I think it's one of the best books ever written.

HOWEVER, don't argue with me about the historical accuracy of Hsi Yu Chi. That one is 100% on.





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"Re(8):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Wed 25 May 07:11post reply

quote:
I don't really need a Japanese faux-history lesson.
What's that new poseur-french trend lately ? After Brandon's "Sengoku Basara in disguise - sans the japanese history theme and names".

YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED !





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"Re(9):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Wed 25 May 07:13post reply

quote:
What's that new poseur-french trend lately ? After Brandon's "Sengoku Basara in disguise - sans the japanese history theme and names".

YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED !



Whoa, the poseur-French has been around for a long time with fancypants people whose first language is English.

But I guess if Brandon and Polly aren't allowed, I'm not either. Sigh.





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"Frenchin'" , posted Wed 25 May 08:14:post reply

quote:
What's that new poseur-french trend lately ?



Oh, pardon my French, dear Iggy!

I hate to break the news to you, but it's the evolution of language, you lovely French bastard. Your mother tongue developed from Vulgar Latin anyway... It's nothing pristine, you know.

Besides, I'm living in Canada. There's French printed on the goddamn cereal boxes, right alongside the English. I'm completely allowed to create a verbal mélange.

Your pathetic maneuver to sabotage my flamboyant manner of written expression is futile.





/ / /

[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Wed 25 May 08:19]

Spoon
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"Re(1):Frenchin'" , posted Wed 25 May 08:36:post reply

quote:
What's that new poseur-french trend lately ?


Oh, pardon my French, dear Iggy!

I hate to break the news to you, but it's the evolution of language, you lovely French bastard. Your mother tongue developed from Vulgar Latin anyway... It's nothing pristine, you know.

Besides, I'm living in Canada. There's French printed on the goddamn cereal boxes, right alongside the English. I'm completely allowed to create a verbal mélange.

Your pathetic maneuver to sabotage my flamboyant manner of written expression is futile.



Damn those Canadiens, and their "Vive le Quebec libre!"

But then, I'm Canadian, so I suppose that I shouldn't preach intolerance and prejudice. But nothing can return the hours taken from me by French schooling. Well, at least I can read cereal boxes without worry. Cric Crac Croc!

And now we shout,
Vive le difference
even for such burning individuals as Iggy.





[this message was edited by Spoon on Wed 25 May 08:37]

Iggy
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"Re(2):Frenchin'" , posted Wed 25 May 16:37post reply

And that's how WW3 began.





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deisied
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"Re(1):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Wed 25 May 17:27post reply

It wouldn't be very Insert Credit of me to complain about this kind of thing like a normal person.

Just so you know though, in my totally un-Insert Credit heart of hearts, I am.





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"Re(2):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Wed 25 May 17:54post reply

hah!
Iggy, I'll have you know that sans and faux are in our dictionaries. we americans can steal whatever word we want from whatever language, and make it ours! HAH!





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"Re(3):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Wed 25 May 18:41post reply

quote:
Iggy, I'll have you know that sans and faux are in our dictionaries. we americans can steal whatever word we want from whatever language, and make it ours! HAH!
You american truely have no souls.
So, are you finally coming to buy one in France or what ?





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kurushimi
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"More Characters Added" , posted Thu 26 May 06:47post reply

Mmmmm, rather than say something of how annoying French people in Counterstrike can be, I'll swing this back to topic

http://www.capcom.co.jp/sengoku/chara.html

Many more...errr, Devils added.





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"Re(4):Sengoku Basara, Japanese history, and y" , posted Thu 26 May 07:14post reply

quote:

So, are you finally coming to buy one in France or what ?



yeah...
I've been working so much that it's been impossible to figure out when I'm going where. GEH!





jiji
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"Re(1):More Characters Added" , posted Thu 26 May 07:29post reply

I'll see you that character page and I'll raise you some seiyuu:

Masamune Date - Kazuya Nakai
Yukimura Sanada - Souichirou Hoshi
Nobunaga Oda - Norio Wakamoto
Nouhime - Yurika Hino
Kenshin Uesugi - Romi Park
Shingen Takeda - Tesshou Genda
Itsuki - Tomoko Kawakami
Zabii - Kouzou Shioya
Ranmaru Mori - Hiroki Shimowada
Mitsuhide Akechi - Shou Hayami
Kasuga - Natsuko Kuwatani
Toshiie Maeda - Tomohiro Tsuboi
Matsu - Yuuko Kaida
Sasuke Sarutobi - Takehito Koyasu

Theme song by T.M. Revolution





kurushimi
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"Re(2):More Characters Added" , posted Thu 26 May 09:19post reply

quote:
I'll see you that character page and I'll raise you some seiyuu:

Masamune Date - Kazuya Nakai
Yukimura Sanada - Souichirou Hoshi
Nobunaga Oda - Norio Wakamoto
Nouhime - Yurika Hino
Kenshin Uesugi - Romi Park
Shingen Takeda - Tesshou Genda
Itsuki - Tomoko Kawakami
Zabii - Kouzou Shioya
Ranmaru Mori - Hiroki Shimowada
Mitsuhide Akechi - Shou Hayami
Kasuga - Natsuko Kuwatani
Toshiie Maeda - Tomohiro Tsuboi
Matsu - Yuuko Kaida
Sasuke Sarutobi - Takehito Koyasu

Theme song by T.M. Revolution



Woah, that's some pretty high-caliber seiyuu there. Koyasu's in it? My intrigue grows!





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"Re(2):More Characters Added" , posted Thu 26 May 15:31post reply

quote:
I've been working so much that it's been impossible to figure out when I'm going where. GEH!

THIS IS NOT THE ANSWER YOUR FANS ARE WAITING FOR.

quote:
Nobunaga Oda - Norio Wakamoto

LOL.
quote:
Theme song by T.M. Revolution

Super LOL.





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Spoon
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"Re(3):More Characters Added" , posted Thu 26 May 15:36post reply

quote:
T.M. Revolution
Super LOL.



Hol Horse is going to unite feudal japan.





jiji
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"Re(4):More Characters Added" , posted Thu 26 May 16:18post reply

quote:
Hol Horse is going to unite feudal japan.


GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABORAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA