New Zelda trailer - http://www.mmcafe.com/ Forums


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Joe Randel
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"New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 04:37post reply

Woo, yeah!

Warning... it's got spiders in it.

boo!






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tenguman
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"Re(1):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 05:48post reply

quote:
Woo, yeah!

Warning... it's got spiders in it.

boo!



Sweet Lord, this is just too much.

Thanks for the link.





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"Re(1):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 05:57post reply

To tell the truth, I've been highly unimpressed by the trailer. It just doesn't show anythig really new in comparison to the E3 trailer. More battles, more riding... The spider boss was nice, but nothing impressed me much.





Kikkoken
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"Re(2):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 06:04post reply

This is going to sell like hot cakes. Delectable.





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"Re(1):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 06:06post reply

I like the ghost part. It seems to be coming along ok.





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"Re(1):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 06:53post reply

quote:

Warning... it's got spiders in it.




Blast...well, thanks for the warning.





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Burning Ranger
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"Re(1):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 08:42post reply

quote:
Woo, yeah!

Warning... it's got spiders in it.

boo!



This takes place after Wind Waker?

What I like:

1. How some of it looks like Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid (the swimming looks like a scene from Snake eater).
2. It moved so fluidly!
3. Bringing back the adult-presentation (1 exception, see below).
4. I like the music.

What I don't like:
1. Is it me, or is the character design going back to pre-Ocarina of Time? I don't think Link is wearing legging. I guess its good for the old schoolers, but it just doesn't look right now.





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"Re(1):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 09:49post reply

quote:
Woo, yeah!

Warning... it's got spiders in it.

boo!



Oh man, it keeps looking better and better. Lots of different animals/creatures to ride on instead of just Epona. I think some people were watching Lord of the Rings too much to create that terrible spider boss. But I will kill it and rejoice.

Thanks for the link.





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"Re(1):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 10:16post reply

quote:
Woo, yeah!


Unimpressive.
It looks like the N64 Zeldas, just with prettier graphics.





Dragon-warrior
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"Re(2):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 10:19post reply

quote:

Unimpressive.
It looks like the N64 Zeldas, just with prettier graphics.


what is impressive? what do you want link to do?
I liked the WW and i think i will love this one too.





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"Re(3):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 10:24post reply

quote:

what is impressive? what do you want link to do?


Impressive would be a non 3D Zelda that exploited the full power of the GC. Just think about a Link to the Past or a Link's Awakening with High res sprites, a gigantic world, good music, and everything that made the Zelda games from the Nes, Snes and GB the great titles they are.
Zelda lost his charm when it went to 3D.





Cain Highwind
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"Re(4):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 11:09post reply

quote:

what is impressive? what do you want link to do?

Impressive would be a non 3D Zelda that exploited the full power of the GC. Just think about a Link to the Past or a Link's Awakening with High res sprites, a gigantic world, good music, and everything that made the Zelda games from the Nes, Snes and GB the great titles they are.
Zelda lost his charm when it went to 3D.



A respectable opinion, but one I humbly disagree with. It's fact that there are two groups of Zelda fans, The 2D Lovers/3D Haters and 3D/Complete series lovers.

Anyway, love or hate the series, it still looks to be one of the most beautiful console games to come out in a while, and like the Gamespot impressions say, the LotR style really adds a lot.

I'm also interested in the fact that the menus seemed removed completely, maybe they've finally reduced the amount of "You've got Item" messages and the other verbose text. If anything, IMHO, THAT has ruined the original charm of Zelda, not the gameplay or the 3D.





Cain Highwind
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"Re(2):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 11:12post reply

quote:

What I don't like:
1. Is it me, or is the character design going back to pre-Ocarina of Time? I don't think Link is wearing legging. I guess its good for the old schoolers, but it just doesn't look right now.



Oh he is, it's just a dark brown with more rough texture and not the White Spandex like stuff he wears in OoT. I would link you the official artwork but I don't have a link off hand.





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"Re(4):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 16:04post reply

quote:
Impressive would be a non 3D Zelda that exploited the full power of the GC. Just think about a Link to the Past or a Link's Awakening with High res sprites, a gigantic world, good music, and everything that made the Zelda games from the Nes, Snes and GB the great titles they are.
Zelda lost his charm when it went to 3D.

I think you would like the Four Swords Adventures for Gamecube, then. The world isn't exactly "huge" (it's broken up level-by-level), but it has the same gameplay mechanics and graphical style as A Link to the Past only in high-res and with great sound. Admittedly, you can only enjoy the game to its full extent with multiple players, but if you're itching for old-school gameplay on a modern console, then it's still a great game to play solo.

As far as the 3D Zeldas go, I was also fairly disappointed by Ocarina of Time. So much so that I never even tried Majora's Mask. However, I'm currently playing through Windwaker right now, and I'm absolutely loving it. A lot of what you mentioned is present in Windwaker even though it's 3D. The world is absolutely HUGE, and the game preserves all the charm and character of the old-school 2D games. That's why I'm slightly worried about this new Zelda. It looks too much like the N64 games to me, but it's way too early to say anything definitively right now. I just hope they keep the gameplay mechanics and dungeon/puzzle design from Windwaker since they're abandoning the graphical style.





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"Re(5):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 17:52post reply

Zelda 3 is the game where the series jumped the shark. Beside the first 2 games on 8 bit and the Capcom games, this series is worthless childish crap.





Cain Highwind
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"Re(6):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 18:39post reply

quote:
Zelda 3 is the game where the series jumped the shark. Beside the first 2 games on 8 bit and the Capcom games, this series is worthless childish crap.



Yikes! That's harsh Iggy. You make me cry ;_;





NARUTO
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"Re(4):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 18:53post reply

quote:

Impressive would be a non 3D Zelda that exploited the full power of the GC. Just think about a Link to the Past or a Link's Awakening with High res sprites, a gigantic world, good music, and everything that made the Zelda games from the Nes, Snes and GB the great titles they are.
Zelda lost his charm when it went to 3D.


Well, even if I have nothing against the 3D episode, (except WW, bleh..) I agree with you.
Your idea of a top 2D zelda, some kind of link to the past 2, worked to the wazoo, is ideed something I would like to see.






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Kikkoken
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"Re(6):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 21:48post reply

quote:
Zelda 3 is the game where the series jumped the shark.


Lucky shark!





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"Re(7):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 22:48post reply

I like Zelda, but the problem with Zelda is that it's kind of the same formula repeated over and over and over and over...

They live off of nostolgia, Nintendo...

I enjoyed Windwaker but I didn't see it through to the end... I think the greatest acheivement of that game was the feeling that you were exploring an unknown world, on a ship... however you were still basically forced to go in one direction... it would be nice if you had more autonomy...





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Iggy
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"Re(7):New Zelda trailer" , posted Fri 11 Mar 23:37post reply

quote:
Lucky shark!


You would want to be jumped over by an ugly polygon model with pointy hears and nose?





Burning Ranger
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"Re(8):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sat 12 Mar 01:30post reply

quote:
I like Zelda, but the problem with Zelda is that it's kind of the same formula repeated over and over and over and over...

They live off of nostolgia, Nintendo...

I enjoyed Windwaker but I didn't see it through to the end... I think the greatest acheivement of that game was the feeling that you were exploring an unknown world, on a ship... however you were still basically forced to go in one direction... it would be nice if you had more autonomy...



I agree. You know (and this may be extreme), I want to see a futuristic Zelda game, where Hyrule would be a futuristic world with Blade Runner-style cities and Link, in addition to his sword and shield, could use guns.





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Iggy
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"Re(9):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sat 12 Mar 02:21post reply

quote:
You know (and this may be extreme), I want to see a futuristic Zelda game, where Hyrule would be a futuristic world with Blade Runner-style cities and Link, in addition to his sword and shield, could use guns.

                _
              //.|
             //./|
           //./| |
          //./ /|. |
        //./|/::/| |
        □/ / // | |
        | |/.;;;;//.  | ||
        | | ;;;;;;//   | |||      l⌒)=|二二フ
        | |.;;;//    | |.||      ∩|∩
        | |//..    | | ||.     (゚Д゚ ) <Those are your final words?
        | |/.     | |. ||     |    )
 ______.| |___//| ||___  | | |__
        | |   //  |. ̄    (__(__)/.|          ∧_∧ ∧_∧ ∧ ∧
  ∩∩ .   (| |⌒/. ∧ ∧⊃          //|         (´-`;)(@・ )(;´∀)
ナー( ゚д゚)(⌒| |// (;´Д`) ←B.R.    //  |        ∧∧ ∧ ∧ ∧_∧. ∧∧
  (    ).  | |/ (⊃ /  ⊂.⊃.   //   |       (∀・ )(ー゚* )(   )(´∀`
  | | |   | |    /   └─┘ //   /.      ∧_∧ ∧ ∧ ∧ ∧. ∧_∧
  (__)_) | |  /         //   /       <_`  )(´・ω)(д゚` )(
        | |/         //   /.       ∧_∧ ∧ ∧ ∧_∧. ∧_∧
        ~~         //   /        (д- )(   )(*゚ー゚)(TдT)






KTallguy
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"Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sat 12 Mar 03:26post reply

Hehehe... =)





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Kikkoken
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"Re(8):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sat 12 Mar 04:36:post reply

quote:
Lucky shark!

You would want to be jumped over by an ugly polygon model with pointy hears and nose?


Stop pretending you did not get my pun with the French language.





[this message was edited by Kikkoken on Sat 12 Mar 04:37]

deisied
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"Re(9):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sat 12 Mar 05:20post reply

Well, I guess I was "impressed" by the same kind of things everyone else is supposed to be. Thing is, as relatively nice as it looks, nothing about the technology particularly justifies it clearly being more of the exact same thing. It's a gamecube achievement, and an achievement of this generation, but it still isn't that level where the idea of what you're looking at alone overshadows the larger picture which is -- Holy crap this is Ocarina with Wind Waker effects and physics. -- And cmon, I even like Wind Waker, but Nintendo is milking it more pathetically than I've ever seen here.

Here they are! They're giving us what we've always wanted!!!! What is that exactly? Ocarina Link without the rough edges? He's pretty much been this age before, it's not that big of a deal. All this has become is a follow up to that infamous little trailer clip that we were all promised, and now whatever this game is, as long as it's that, given how much people whined about it, this game is going to be perfectly okay, and that's not okay.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is. OMG I CAN'T WAIT TO SHOOT ARROWS AT GHOSTS INSTEAD OF WACKY GOBLINS OR WHATEVER THE HELL.

Oh, and just so you know, that music isn't going to play behind anything you do in the game. Keep that in mind.





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"Re(9):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sat 12 Mar 06:24post reply

quote:
Stop pretending you did not get my pun with the French language.


Tu aimerais sauter Zelda ? Tu aimerais te faire sauter par une cartouche super NES de Zelda 3 ? Tu veux qu'on en parle ?

I DON'T UNDERSTAND !!!!





Burning Ranger
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"Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sat 12 Mar 06:53post reply

quote:
You know (and this may be extreme), I want to see a futuristic Zelda game, where Hyrule would be a futuristic world with Blade Runner-style cities and Link, in addition to his sword and shield, could use guns.
                _
              //.|
             //./|
           //./| |
          //./ /|. |
        //./|/::/| |
        □/ / // | |
        | |/.;;;;//.  | ||
        | | ;;;;;;//   | |||      l⌒)=|二二フ
        | |.;;;//    | |.||      ∩|∩
        | |//..    | | ||.     (゚Д゚ ) <Those are your final words?
        | |/.     | |. ||     |    )
 ______.| |___//| ||___  | | |__
        | |   //  |. ̄    (__(__)/.|          ∧_∧ ∧_∧ ∧ ∧
  ∩∩ .   (| |⌒/. ∧ ∧⊃          //|         (´-`;)(@・ )(;´∀)
ナー( ゚д゚)(⌒| |// (;´Д`) ←B.R.    //  |        ∧∧ ∧ ∧ ∧_∧. ∧∧
  (    ).  | |/ (⊃ /  ⊂.⊃.   //   |       (∀・ )(ー゚* )(   )(´∀`
  | | |   | |    /   └─┘ //   /.      ∧_∧ ∧ ∧ ∧ ∧. ∧_∧
  (__)_) | |  /         //   /       <_`  )(´・ω)(д゚` )(
        | |/         //   /.       ∧_∧ ∧ ∧ ∧_∧. ∧_∧
        ~~         //   /        (д- )(   )(*゚ー゚)(TдT)




Hypocrites! And you're all the ones complaining that the new Zelda is more of the same! SHAME ON YOU ALL! *CRIES*





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Grahf
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"Re(2):Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sat 12 Mar 07:15post reply

Eh, sounds to me like what everyone wants is a 2D Morrowind or something. If you want something different so bad, then maybe you shouldn't expect it from an already established series that's pushing 20 years old now.





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"Question" , posted Sat 12 Mar 07:21post reply

quote:
Eh, sounds to me like what everyone wants is a 2D Morrowind


What's a Morrowind?





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"Re(1):Question" , posted Sat 12 Mar 07:36post reply

quote:
What's a Morrowind?

Morrowind was an RPG for PC and Xbox that came out a few years ago that was absolutely nonlinear and took place in a gigantic world. It played kind of like a single-player MMORPG. There was a main quest (sort of) that consisted of a bunch of loosely connected quests, but you are in no way confined to follow it. The game was actually a little too nonlinear for my tastes, but it was refreshing to see the concept taken so far. For me, Morrowind always comes to mind when people complain that games are too linear, formulaic, and small.

In my opinion, it's worth playing simply out of curiosity. I think there were also a couple expansions that came out later I never played. More info on the game's homepage. Apparently a sequel has recently been announced too.





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"Re(2):Question" , posted Sat 12 Mar 09:22:post reply

Open ended RPGs became more or less crap to me after playing the horror that is Saga Frontier. It's not like real life is all THAT open ended anyways. We're as much victims of circumstances as we're people of free will. As far as Zelda goes, while I still haven't beaten a single Zelda game, I think 3D Zelda games are a necessity in our time and I think this game will rock.

OT: Back when Link to the Past came out, I was too busy playing Square games. And everyone tells me to beat the NES Zelda before OOT and WW, but I always find something else to play on my ridiculously long backlog playlist. (currently Ninja Gaiden) At this rate, I'll never play Zelda 2005. Same goes for Metroid and others.

edit: as long as we're on this 2D/3D tangent, I think some games make the 3D transition well like Ninja Gaiden, Metroid Prime, Mario 64, and OOT. I'm still waiting for Sonic to join this group. (granted I beat both Sonic Adventures and had a blast) I guess reinventing old classics are ok since I've never beaten many of them.





[this message was edited by Phoenix on Sat 12 Mar 09:37]

ONSLAUGHT
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"Re(2):Question" , posted Sat 12 Mar 15:47post reply

quote:
Awesome Morrowin explanation


Thanks, but those open ended RPG's are not my cup of tea. When I said "huge world", I meant tons of dungeons, several towns, and a good variety of areas to explore. Instead of having 6 temples for example, you could have 20 or so. Making them optional would be a good idea, since I don't think everyone would like to go through 20 mazes...





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"Re(3):Question" , posted Sat 12 Mar 17:31post reply

quote:
Open ended RPGs became more or less crap to me after playing the horror that is Saga Frontier. It's not like real life is all THAT open ended anyways. We're as much victims of circumstances as we're people of free will.

I guess the correct name for this games is "free scenario RPG", since "open ended" means you can have any ending you want, even though your party will always end with killing the big bad guy and voilà (open ended would be more something like Tactics Ogre for example).
And the point of free scenario RPG is not to emulate life or anything. It's to give you as much freedom as possible. Freedom doesn't exist in real life.

Also, Saga Frontier never existed and it was all a huge collective hallucination caused by some space monster or something. Saga series only appeared on GB, SFC and PS2.





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"Re(2):Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sat 12 Mar 19:14post reply

The game looks impressive and I'm going to try my hardest to wait patiently for this title. New Zelda games always make me happy.

Oh and I crap on the 2D/3D arguments, The only bad Zelda games were the CDi games and those technically don't count. All the Zelda games kick ass in one way or another, end of story.





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"Re(3):Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sat 12 Mar 19:20:post reply

Ocarina of Time was a great game for me... it was definitely the hardest Zelda I have played, and it was pretty lengthy as a quest. Wind Waker was okay, but it felt like a rerun of OOT.

And Zelda seemed to get too easy once the heart meter went by 1/4ths instead of 1/2ths. I never died in Wind Waker and beat the game, and it was the same for Minish Cap.

Zelda was fun in 3D, but I agree it didn't feel the same as the 2D predecessors. Zelda made a much better transition to 3D than genres like Mario and Castlevania, that's for sure.





[this message was edited by EddyT on Sat 12 Mar 19:21]

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"Re(4):Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sun 13 Mar 00:49post reply

I felt comfortable when Zelda went to 3D, even when I was a hardcore Sega fan (Sonic Adventure should have got 1998 Game of the year, not OoT). Still, I don't think Wind Waker ever measured up IMHO. I still prefer OoT to this day.





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"Re(4):Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sun 13 Mar 04:01post reply

quote:
Ocarina of Time was a great game for me... it was definitely the hardest Zelda I have played, and it was pretty lengthy as a quest.


You really need to play The Legend of Zelda and The Adventure of Link then.







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"What about MM?" , posted Sun 13 Mar 05:24:post reply

With all the love/hate for OoT I really have to wonder how people here felt about Majora's Mask? On the one hand it's gameplay was an extension of OoT (so the haters would still hate it) but its emphasis on time management and problem solving made it a very different game (so the lovers will hate it too?).

So what's the opinion here?





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[this message was edited by Variable Savior on Sun 13 Mar 05:26]

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"Re(1):What about MM?" , posted Sun 13 Mar 09:27post reply

quote:

So what's the opinion here?



In my opinion, good, but way too short. Only 4 dungeons is a joke.





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"Re(2):What about MM?" , posted Sun 13 Mar 09:32post reply

That's not really the point though. It wasn't "the next Ocarina of Time", it doesn't matter that there were only 4.

Dungeons are probably my least favorite part of Zelda games...despite the fact that they try to the main content most of the time.





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"Re(1):What about MM?" , posted Sun 13 Mar 09:44post reply

quote:
With all the love/hate for OoT I really have to wonder how people here felt about Majora's Mask? On the one hand it's gameplay was an extension of OoT (so the haters would still hate it) but its emphasis on time management and problem solving made it a very different game (so the lovers will hate it too?).

So what's the opinion here?


Well, personally, I liked Majora's Mask. While it did have some problems (I found the game to be way too short and sometimes the time thing was a bit annoying), it had plenty of good things going for it. For example, the time thing actually worked for the game at times since it enabled the game to have events going on at certain times that were interesting and would have been hard to pull off if there was no time thing. I found some of the areas to be pretty nice as well (for instance the mountains and the valley of the dead). Plus, some of the masks were fun to play with. Overall though, I agree with you that if someone didn't like OoT, there is a high chance if not 100% chance of them not liking MM also. Oh well... I enjoyed it. Oh, but it was a bit depressing how you could save shit loads of people and then when you reset time, everyone is having a shitty existance again. Every time I would go to the final dungeon, I would reset time, do as many good things as possible, then head off to the last boss.






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"Re(1):New Zelda trailer" , posted Sun 13 Mar 11:28post reply

After awhile, it comes back to this:
Ultima 7 Black Gate is what we need. And do not add in all the lame anti-theft stuff. Ultima 7 has buckets of optional caves and dungeons (many of which seem pointless, some of which are nicely hidden), a very interactive world complete with people that have daily schedules and need to sleep, day/night cycles and weather, chaotic and gory combat, game mechanics that are loose where they need to be, and the ability to stop time like Dio. You can go out at night and discreetly hunt torch-carrying town guards for money, equiment, and exp. You can kill everybody in town, then haul their corpses back to the king for resurrection. You can rob people's stores by breaking in at night, and then selling their wares back to them. Nearly the entire world is open to you from the outset. The main "quest" is really just a way of guiding you between the towns to the final dungeon; you are in no way obliged to follow it. In my first "play through" (I didn't beat the game AT ALL), I was having so much fun just playing around and exploring its world. Ultima 7 Black Gate is totally unlike all the japanese console style RPGs in execution and play, and sometimes that's what we need: something that isn't built about the conventions we're used to.

In fact all the bugs and exploits you will find in the game only make the game more fun, and that to me is the mark of a truly great game. And sometimes when you do accidentally corrupt your savegame by filling every container in the city of Britain and then some with loot, the game will actually tell you that the savegame is corrupt, and will offer to fix your savegame. Too good.

Ultima Underworld is awfully good, too. But it's awfully old looking. Nevermind that, though, because it's so far ahead of its time (and so well made) that a better RPG of its style hasn't really been made... the closest thing there is to it, is Morrowind (which is even more open ended), which in fact apes its gameplay.

We now return to your daily raging debate of people who want new life breathed into a series, but refuse to accept any radical change to that series.





Sano
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"Re(3):Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Mon 14 Mar 08:45post reply

quote:
The game looks impressive and I'm going to try my hardest to wait patiently for this title. New Zelda games always make me happy.

Oh and I crap on the 2D/3D arguments, The only bad Zelda games were the CDi games and those technically don't count. All the Zelda games kick ass in one way or another, end of story.



Even though I've yet to play Wind Waker and I won't play this game since I don't think I'll ever own a Gamecube, I agree. I've played and finished just about every other Zelda game including the Nintendo 64 games and I think it's a very strong series. Oracle of Seasons/Ages is one of my favorites, especially because of the great puzzles in Seasons. And Ages, well, you can't play one without the other. And I think I'm one of the few who just really really loves Zelda II The Adventure of Link, but I'm a big fan of side scrolling.

The next Zelda game I plan to buy is Minish Cap, but I don't know when I'll get around to it.





Ryu and Chun-Li forever!

Spoon
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"Re(4):Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Mon 14 Mar 12:29post reply

quote:
And I think I'm one of the few who just really really loves Zelda II The Adventure of Link,


Zelda 2 is a good game; I've beaten it too many times on my NES. Though I have to say that once you figure out the jumping crouch slash technique, the fights become far too easy.

Most people don't like it because it doesn't play like Zelda 1.





EddyT
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"Re(5):Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Mon 14 Mar 17:06post reply

quote:

You really need to play The Legend of Zelda and The Adventure of Link then.



I beat both quests in Legend of Zelda without ever picking up a sword.

That actually made the game hard, but using an actual sword made it much easier.





EddyT
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"Re(6):Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Mon 14 Mar 17:08:post reply

quote:

You really need to play The Legend of Zelda and The Adventure of Link then.




I beat both quests in Legend of Zelda without ever picking up a sword.

That actually made the game hard, but using an actual sword made it much easier.

I honestly didn't think Zelda II was that hard compared to Zelda I or OoT. What made OoT hard for me was the puzzles, not the difficulty of the bosses or anything like that. I didn't use a hintbook at all for the game, although I did use hintbooks for Zelda I and II way back in the day. So I guess w/o hintbooks it would have been much tougher on me.





[this message was edited by EddyT on Mon 14 Mar 17:13]

Spoon
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"Re(7):Re(10):New Zelda trailer" , posted Mon 14 Mar 18:27post reply

quote:

Zelda 2 not that hard


This is true. It's a heckuva lot easier than the 2nd quest of Zelda 1.

There really aren't that many truly tricky spots in Zelda 2, especially if you talk with the townsfolk. Except for one dastardly trick in the final dungeon, I'd say that the dungeons also aren't that hard to figure out. The presence of levelling also makes the game easier, in general.