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| DarkZero 1099th Post
 
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|  "Re(1):I have lost count" , posted Sat 12 Feb 00:44
quote:
the best part was Wolverine with a Canadian accent. :)
How true that was a great accent...they should have included Colosuss too.
So is this the current storyline? Is Magneto back AGAIN?
Magneto's been back for most of a year now, ever since X-Men Reload (which, yes, occurred right after Magneto's death). Magneto, Xavier, and Calisto are leading Excalibur together in Genosha with a bunch of new mutants. Dark Beast is in there too, as a villain.
I've never gotten to read any issues of the new Excalibur, but from the previews I saw, the beginning of one of the early issues was hilarious. Magneto and Xavier have a conversation about "faking Magneto's death" and predicting "when" Jean Grey will be back, which was just a huge middle finger to everyone involved with the previous X-Men story arc. It's unfortunate that they brought so many characters back during the Reload and now they've started offing them again, like whichever X-Man is going to bite it in the next issue of Wolverine.
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| Baines
24th Post
New Customer
| "Re(5):I have lost count" , posted Sat 12 Feb 04:48
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Then why is everyone and their mother were praising Grant Morrison's run?
Why did the editors even allow this garbage go through?
Why? Because Morrison's run brought the book back up to numbers that it hadn't seen in years, and was ultimately one of the best storylines that X-Men had seen in decades.
Some of the reader problems come from people either missing important details or just not bothering. (Some of the writers following Morrison for example didn't have a clue about it.)
Morrison actually tried to respect prior works, and it led to problems. People hated Cyclops' attitude problem, but it was there because Morrison wasn't ignoring the prior storyline where Apocalypse and Cyclops were fused. Morrison wanted the deceased Colossus back, but unlike every other writer (including Whedon), he didn't bring him back.
As for Marvel itself, apparently near the end the people in charge decided that they hated Morrison's run. Once he left, they pretty much ordered everything to be rewritten and reversed. Chuck Austen for example said that he was ordered to bring Xorn in as a real character (while under Morrison, Xorn was just a fake identity assumed by Magneto). Cassandra Nova was written as escaped and forgotten, while under Morrison she had already become Ernst (who vanished post-Morrison). To "save" Magneto from being a mass murderer, Marvel had him rewritten to be a delusional mutant who thought he was Magneto, despite Morrison's Magneto being under the influence/control of Sublime when he went wacko.
Claremont in particular seems to be quite happy to walk over Morrison, when Morrison had a pretty good respect for Claremont.
Oh, and Claremont's new Excalibur is laughable garbage. Though I hear the last issue supposedly reached the level of readable.
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| digitalboy
116th Post
Regular Customer
|  "Re(6):I have lost count" , posted Sat 12 Feb 05:38
quote:
Then why is everyone and their mother were praising Grant Morrison's run?
Why did the editors even allow this garbage go through?
Why? Because Morrison's run brought the book back up to numbers that it hadn't seen in years, and was ultimately one of the best storylines that X-Men had seen in decades.
Some of the reader problems come from people either missing important details or just not bothering. (Some of the writers following Morrison for example didn't have a clue about it.)
Morrison actually tried to respect prior works, and it led to problems. People hated Cyclops' attitude problem, but it was there because Morrison wasn't ignoring the prior storyline where Apocalypse and Cyclops were fused. Morrison wanted the deceased Colossus back, but unlike every other writer (including Whedon), he didn't bring him back.
As for Marvel itself, apparently near the end the people in charge decided that they hated Morrison's run. Once he left, they pretty much ordered everything to be rewritten and reversed. Chuck Austen for example said that he was ordered to bring Xorn in as a real character (while under Morrison, Xorn was just a fake identity assumed by Magneto). Cassandra Nova was written as escaped and forgotten, while under Morrison she had already become Ernst (who vanished post-Morrison). To "save" Magneto from being a mass murderer, Marvel had him rewritten to be a delusional mutant who thought he was Magneto, despite Morrison's Magneto being under the influence/control of Sublime when he went wacko.
Claremont in particular seems to be quite happy to walk over Morrison, when Morrison had a pretty good respect for Claremont.
Oh, and Claremont's new Excalibur is laughable garbage. Though I hear the last issue supposedly reached the level of readable.
UGH.
My head hurts from trying to make sense of the continuity.
But thank you Baines and Sano for explaining some points of Morrison's run to me. I liked Emma's "costume" and well, that is about it, from Morrison's stint.
Back to the continuity, I read a rumor about Marvel will be running a huge cross over. A cross over that can be compared to Crisis On Infinite Earths or even Zero Hour. Where Marvel will be rebooting the Marvel continuity, can anyone provide any evidence or explain to me that I need sleep and it's just a rumor and this is a run on sentence.
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| DarkZero 1102th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member+
| "Re(6):I have lost count" , posted Sat 12 Feb 13:45:
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To "save" Magneto from being a mass murderer, Marvel had him rewritten to be a delusional mutant who thought he was Magneto, despite Morrison's Magneto being under the influence/control of Sublime when he went wacko.
Uhhh, I think it's a little more likely that they rewrote Morrison's Magneto as an imposter because it's a little easier to swallow than, "Apparently, my secondary mutation is a detachable skull! Someone rolled it back over to my body and now I'm just peachy!"
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Magneto's been back for most of a year now, ever since X-Men Reload (which, yes, occurred right after Magneto's death).
GAY.
Seriously though, what did anyone expect? The guy kills off two characters who have been around for about 35 years and then just ends his run with that. I guess it was a nice way to end his little masterpiece, but did he seriously think that no one would bring them back, just like they've been brought back all the other times? It's one thing to kill a character like Colossus and have a reasonable expectation that no one will bring him back outside of What Ifs and alternate timelines, but you can't just kill two of the most important X-Men characters and expect everybody to just deal with it.
I'm not saying that any of this business about bringing characters back is good writing, but just that Morrison had to know that it was going to happen when he did this. Did he really expect that the other writers would turn the next few issues of their X-Men comics into sobfests for all the characters that knew Jean and Magneto, and then spend the next God-knows-how-many number of issues dealing with the consequences of their deaths?
"Gee, thanks, Grant! This is great stuff you've forced me to write for the next few years! Thanks, Buddy!"
Of course not.
[this message was edited by DarkZero on Sat 12 Feb 14:29] |
| Shin Ramberk
85th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(8):I have lost count" , posted Sat 12 Feb 15:14
quote:
"Gee, thanks, Grant! This is great stuff you've forced me to write for the next few years! Thanks, Buddy!"
Of course not.
LOL! Funniest thing I've read all day!
Whatever way you feel about Morrison, there's a few points that you should understand. First, its totally unacceptable for Marvel to revive Magneto and Jean so quickly. This was an inevitable thing of course, but it does two very bad things. First thing it does, it sends the message to other writers that Marvel ultimately doesn't care what kind of work you produce for them, they'll over turn it real quickly if they see fit. What quality writer is going to want to work under those conditions? Secondly, it makes deaths even more meaningless then they already are because the next month, the character is revived.
Other big point. Morrison's run had gotten great reviews and he boosted sales quite a bit. Morrison put in some great ideas in the book. And he did respect past continuity.
I don't know whose idea it was to piss all over Morrison's work, but its been a long time since I've read a Claremont book. And its been an even longer time since I've read something by Chuck Austen.
I'm barely reading X-Men again and its because of Peter Milligan. I will buy Whedon's X-Men when it comes out in hardcover (inevitable).
Anyway. I think its STUPID, MORONIC, DISGUSTING what Marvel and its writers did to Morrisons run. The guy actually did put up some great ideas, a great big storyline, and respected continuity. He was the perfect writer. His writing and storytellng style may not have suited your tastes but he did GREAT. Its just disgusting how his ideas got treated afterwards.
Last thing, even Claremont started to reference things from Morrison's X-men book in his own X-Treme X-Men book. Thats how influential and important Morrison's work was.
Go buy the new Warlock series by Marvel. It is good support this title!
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| Sano 1475th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
  
| "Re(9):I have lost count" , posted Sat 12 Feb 21:19:
Colossus' comeback sales have gone through the roof. Same with Phoenix End Song AKA Jean Grey's return, same with Magneto's return, and when the numbers come in, same with Psylocke's return. Bringing characters back to life makes Marvel money. They'll do anything for money now (cough, cough, selling the Marvel vs. rights to the Antichrist/EA) but since they were recently bankrupt, I can't blame them that much. Sure, they've pulled themselves out of bankruptcy but it is always a threat that looms over their heads. DC is owned by Warner Bros., they don't exactly have the same exact threat looming over their heads unless the WB itself goes bankrupt and even if that were to happen, the WB would just merge with someone else.
[this message was edited by Sano on Sat 12 Feb 21:22] |
| Baines
25th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(7):I have lost count" , posted Sun 13 Feb 12:24
Marvel is planning a major crossover called "The House of M" that will supposedly revolve around Magneto, and may also explain the current Magneto mess. (Excalibur, which returned Magneto, has repeatedly had hints that either it isn't really Magneto or something else weird is going on.)
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Seriously though, what did anyone expect? The guy kills off two characters who have been around for about 35 years and then just ends his run with that. I guess it was a nice way to end his little masterpiece, but did he seriously think that no one would bring them back, just like they've been brought back all the other times?
Morrison supposedly had one story condition when Marvel hired him, that they not reverse what he was going to do with Scott, Emma, and Jean. Presumably, Marvel knew from the start that he intended to kill Jean. Morrison's condition even planned for the reversal that Marvel had used before.
Quick history: When Phoenix was first killed, Claremont wrote Scott into permanent retirement. Scott left the X-Men, met a new redhead, married her, and even fathered a child. Marvel brought back Jean, and then decided they wanted Scott and Jean together. So Scott simply abandoned his wife and child to return to Jean. Marvel's "solution" to such an un-heroic action was to then turn Scott's wife into an evil duplicate of Jean.
Magneto was presumed dead when Morrison started his run. Morrison ends with Magneto beheaded by Wolverine, which actually returned him to the pre-Morrison status (of being gutted by Wolverine). It wasn't that Magneto was beheaded that upset Marvel. Xavier has been cloned, Magneto reverted to a baby, Jean is a revolving door when it comes to death, etc. What threw Marvel into a complete fit was that a drug-using Magneto had pretty much turned New York into a death camp for humans. (But it wasn't really Magneto, it was Magneto under the influence or even control of Sublime, a millenia-old sentience that kept mutants in check through such actions.) It was Morrison's last couple of arcs that caused Marvel to go rabid, as until then they were quite happy with the major sales increase he had caused.
As for reviving characters in general. Right before Morrison's run, Marvel had a new policy that "Dead stay dead." Marvel then had an overhyped fake death of Silver Surfer, but nobody noticed or cared so that didn't matter. Right after Morrison left, Marvel immediately reversed their policy in order to bring back Magneto and prep a Phoenix series. That is why Psylocke is now returning and Colossus already has returned.
And just a note, one or two issues after Morrison left, a letters column comment even promised Jean and Scott would get back together.
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| Lupin 2925th Post
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| "Re(6):I have lost count" , posted Mon 14 Feb 21:05
I don't follow Marvel that closely. Is it justifiable that fake Magneto was killed that way because of the fact that he wasn't the real one?
Also wouldn't Marvel have to approve of killing off characters, and it would not be just something that writers on a limited run can do whenever?
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Morrison supposedly had one story condition when Marvel hired him, that they not reverse what he was going to do with Scott, Emma, and Jean. Presumably, Marvel knew from the start that he intended to kill Jean. Morrison's condition even planned for the reversal that Marvel had used before.
Oh. hmmm.....
Also, durring a recent period when Marvel was making a push for new talent, I read on the 'net that they were looking for creative people who were willing to take the characters in their own direction so to speak... They didn't want stories that took place between issue number 415 and 417 of some older comic. It seemed they were saying that you should be very familiar with their characters but do something 'fresh' while not being bogged down with continuity. This was probably around the period of the said comic run.
Would you say that "piss all over Morrison's work" is an accurate description? If so was there a bitter dispute at Marvel which Morrison reacted to by killing famous characters and Marvel reacted to by overwriting his work?
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That is why Psylocke is now returning
Oh cool, she's like my favorite, just because of the looks+powers.
As for Pheonix, it would seem regular that they'd have her die and be resurected over and over.
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Heh, heh. Quesada's positon on death is hilarious now. He said at the beginning of 2005 "I said it once and I'll say it again. (This in itself is a lie because what he said once before was the dead will stay dead) Dead people are not coming back to life unless it makes perfect sense for them to do so." Um... not a single one of Marvel's 'rebirths' as of late make one lick of sense.
Does his quote mean it has to make some sort of perifieral timing of financial sense, or does it mean the method of the character coming back to life has to make sense, or storywise, or?
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| Baines
30th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(7):I have lost count" , posted Tue 15 Feb 07:34:
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If so was there a bitter dispute at Marvel which Morrison reacted to by killing famous characters and Marvel reacted to by overwriting his work?
Morrison didn't kill famous characters out of spite. He was just doing what Marvel hired him to do, which was to take the book in a new direction. I don't see how Marvel could have missed his plan to kill Jean, unless they were too desperate to even ask. And Magneto was considered dead before Morrison started. Emma Frost was restored by Jean/Phoenix under Morrison (for storyline reasons, to show Jean coming into Phoenix' power). No named mutants were shown dead from Genosha's destruction. A third stringer was killed under Morrison, whose name I can't recall. The rest that Morrison offed were his own creations. Claremont killed Psylocke, not Morrison. And Colossus was already dead. Morrison had an alternate future where people die, but that was averted by Phoenix/Jean's actions at the end of his run.
Marvel trampled on Morrison because once he got where he was going, they decided they didn't want to be there. People at Marvel didn't seem to understand the basic nuances of the run (like Magneto's portrayal), and found they didn't actually like the changes that they had actually comissioned.
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Does his quote mean it has to make some sort of perifieral timing of financial sense, or does it mean the method of the character coming back to life has to make sense, or storywise, or?
The context of the original comment was that death in the Marvel universe had become meaningless due to its revolving door nature. Since that detracted from story potential (unspoken comment being that it wasn't getting the sales figures that it once did), policy was being changed and characters that were killed would now stay dead. Unless it were a planned short-term for the sake of storyline death. Emma being shattered under Morrison would be an example. She didn't really die, because she was in solid diamond form and her mind was strong enough to hold onto the pieces until Phoenix got over her anger long enough to put the parts back together. (And Beast actually went through the effort of collecting all the pieces.)
Supposedly, Claremont had intended Psylocke's death to be temporary, but it was apparently too long term for the policy. (And going by her return, the end result seemed to be to just remove all the recent nonsense that Claremont had inflicted upon her in his prior short run of Uncanny. She's still in Revanche's Asian body, just without the Crimson Dawn stuff.)
The new policy is that much more a joke as the old policy already addressed storyline deaths in a reasonable matter. The new policy really is just a return to the revolving door, as shown by the quick return of so many characters. Colossus didn't return for storyline purposes, Colossus returned because Whedon didn't want Colossus dead. Same goes for Psylocke. Marvel decided they didn't want Magneto or Jean dead. House of M isn't a storyline reason to bring back Magneto, it is an excuse.
Edit: Forgot the point that the dead stay dead policy was in regards to on-panel deaths. A writer could still claim someone died off-panel only to show them return. Which makes sense.
[this message was edited by Baines on Tue 15 Feb 07:42] |
| Baines
34th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(3):Another Flic by Gardner! Dark Phoenix R" , posted Sun 20 Feb 09:34
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Psylocke's tits ain't that big... I think Gardner was just pointing out how much of a... sex symbol she is... yeah, that's the nicest way of saying it.
The old description of Asian Psylocke is that she is a "nimbo," or "ninja bimbo." Pretty much the whole reason behind her getting an Asian body and ninja skills was so that artists could draw a sexy Asian ninja chick that only wore a skintight one piece bikini and some ribbon. (Apparently "reserved overly clothed British woman" wasn't matching the chosen target demographics.)
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The Movie is based on the current storyline. Some things go back a few months like the death of fishboy and Cyclops assigning Wolverine to every team, but with Jean and Psylocke's return, it's up to date I'd say. ^_^
Wolverine is always on every team. Heck, he was showing up in X-Treme X-Men even when Storm's team had disassociated themselves from Xavier.
Strange that while they mentioned twice Colossus returning from the dead, they didn't mention that Psylocke just returned. Particularly strange considering that they could have made a decent joke in comparison to Jean, considering that the X-Men don't even know how or why Psylocke returned or whether she is even good or evil...
Too bad this movie wasn't anywhere near as funny as the first. :/ The first works whether or not you know the recent story history, and particularly makes fun of the stupidity that happened post-Morrison. The new one...doesn't really. *shrug* Wolverine was the best part, with a few other sections. But there were so many jokes missed and so long between good ones. :/ It didn't really feel like something made by someone who knew the recent history, unlike the first.
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| Sano 1504th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(4):Another Flic by Gardner! Dark Phoenix R" , posted Sun 20 Feb 09:51
Wolverine was on the teams before, but in the new storyline after Morrison Cyclops made a point to put Wolverine on all of the teams with him telling Cyclops "I know you're confident in my abilities, but do you have to put me on every X team?" And with Cyclops dishing out the orders in the movie, it's what it best reminded me of.
And he wasn't always part of all the teams. When the X-Men first seperated into teams, the Blue and Gold team, Wolverine was only on the Blue Team which also consisted of Cyclops, Beast, Gambit, Psylocke, Rogue and Jubilee. The Gold Team had Storm, Iceman, Jean Grey, Colossus, Bishop and Archangel.
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"I have lost count" , posted Sat 12 Feb 00:05
