Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku. - http://www.mmcafe.com/ Forums


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sabo10
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"Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku." , posted Tue 18 Jan 18:38:post reply

Do you think that animated “lolicon” material should be made illegal?
Yes.
No.


To be clear, in this instance, “lolicon” is used to describe animated material such as anime, comics, or videogames that have explicit sexual depictions involving children characters.

Please vote "yes" if you think that comics (doujinshi) or adult videogames (erogames) or animation that contain this kind of material should be made illegal to produce in Japan.

-----------------------------

Recently, a story was posted on the anime news network titled “Lolicon Backlash in Japan.”

The story.

It covered a group called CASPAR, “a Japanese non-profit-organization founded in 1989, that is campaigning for regulation regarding the depiction of of minors in pornographic comics and adult video games.”

What I find more interesting, are the responses to the story, here:

The responses to the story.

The story isn’t really noteworthy, insomuch as there will always be some group snapping at the heels of any kind of offensive media in any country. What I find interesting is that in the lengthy thread of responses to the story, how many English speaking anime fans strongly agree with CASPAR’s stance on the issue. I was a bit shocked, and it seems to me as very intolerant coming from these people, who are registered and active users on an anime news site, and who claim to be fans of Japanese animation. I wonder if such a backlash against lolicon material exists amongst Japanese fans.





[this message was edited by sabo10 on Wed 19 Jan 04:37]

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Undead Fred
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"Re(1):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Tue 18 Jan 19:00post reply

quote:
The story.

Their reaction sort of reminds me of the whole violent videogame backlash. I didn't think that sort of situation in the article was much of a problem at all over there...





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"Re(1):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Tue 18 Jan 19:52post reply

OH NO!

The issues are at hand!





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DarkZero
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"Re(2):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Tue 18 Jan 20:07post reply

quote:
The story.
Their reaction sort of reminds me of the whole violent videogame backlash. I didn't think that sort of situation in the article was much of a problem at all over there...



As of the first page and a half, it seemed pretty reasonable to me. Of course, there were the kids and/or barely literate adults with kneejerk emotional arguments who think "it's disturbing" and "it sickens me" are arguments against free speech (fools like these can be expected in any discussion on any subject), but the rest of it was a well-considered set of ideas for and against lolicon material.

I think the most interesting, though, was an idea that wasn't immediately responded to. Someone mentioned the vast amount of anime that would be banned under such a standard, and it's not an insignificant amount. Take Neon Genesis Evangelion, for example. If it weren't outright banned by such legislation, then any future work resembling it (and possibly future video releases of NGE itself) would fall under its chilling effect. If it wasn't handled absolutely perfectly, such a law would force a pretty significant cultural shift for Japanese media, considering that there's a vast amount of material that displays underage nudity in some form or another, and usually in a pretty casual way.

Then again, I keep hearing about "Japanese backlash against --thing in media--", followed by, "OH NOES! THEY'RE BECOMING US!!!" and then never see any effect from it in the coming years. Everyone said that NGE was pretty controversial and that it created some sort of huge backlash in TV anime, but I've never really seen any reduction in blood or breasts in TV anime since. And Battle Royale, rather than sending a chilling effect through Japanese media, earned itself a sequel.





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"Re(3):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Tue 18 Jan 20:39:post reply

Two issues.

1:
quote:

"The utmost priority of the constitution is to guarantee fundamental human rights. I believe the freedom of expression does not allow for the depiction of little girls being violently raped, depriving them of their basic human rights."


....So you can't create stories where character's rights are violated?

2:
quote:

"The subsequent "Child Obscenity and Pornography Prevention Act of 2002 banned only virtual images that are indistinguishable from real child porn, and prohibits all obscene pornographic images of prepubescent children."


....So does that mean that people who have lolicon doujinshi in America can be charged the same as someone with (real) child pornography?

The first question is sarcastic...the second is genuine.





[this message was edited by Pollyanna on Tue 18 Jan 20:46]

Mokona
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"Re(4):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Wed 19 Jan 03:34:post reply

I thought it was already considered as child pornography (in some countries at least, I thought I heard of people leaving japan with some anime/manga material featuring underage characters and being confiscated/fined/prosecuted, but I could be wrong)!
I don't really mind, in a way, but if it fuels "real" child pornography, then I guess it wouldn't hurt banning it. Making a direct link is not easy though, since I don't think the target audience is the same. I mean, I assume pedophiles get no "buzz" out of this sort of hentai material. Then again, if someone is twisted enough to get sexually excited by a child, anything could excite them I guess...
Of course, I assume we're talking about anything with direct sexual content. Not some soft H thing with little girls in a swimsuit.





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[this message was edited by Mokona on Wed 19 Jan 03:36]

DarkZero
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"Re(4):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Wed 19 Jan 03:57post reply

quote:

2:

"The subsequent "Child Obscenity and Pornography Prevention Act of 2002 banned only virtual images that are indistinguishable from real child porn, and prohibits all obscene pornographic images of prepubescent children."

....So does that mean that people who have lolicon doujinshi in America can be charged the same as someone with (real) child pornography?

The first question is sarcastic...the second is genuine.



The original law was very broad and covered any depiction of children in sexual situations, or even just child nudity. As a lot of media outlets pointed out, this meant that that, in effect, the Coppertone baby on the cover of Coppertone sunscreen was banned.

The modified law only covers artificial child pornography that's indistinguishable from the real thing. Basically, photoshopping someone's family photos of two children to look like they're having sex, or taking an image of a naked woman and photoshopping her features down to the point where she looks like a naked child. I believe the reasoning was that even though it doesn't have the key element of child pornography, which is that the actual creation of child pornography is the sexual abuse of a child, its presence just makes child pornography too damned hard to prosecute, because anyone can just claim, "It's just a really good virtual child porn photo!" and their case becomes infinitely harder to prosecute.





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"Re(1):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Wed 19 Jan 04:13post reply

This will blow over in a month or two like the whole "ban janitors in primary schools" thing.





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DarkZero
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"Re(2):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Wed 19 Jan 04:18post reply

quote:
This will blow over in a month or two like the whole "ban janitors in primary schools" thing.



You can't just throw out something that hilarious without explaining it, dude.





sabo10
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"Re(3):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Wed 19 Jan 04:47:post reply

Wow, if people are voting seriously, then I am very surprised to see that even on this forum, which is probably more biased towards Japanese pop culture than average, that currently, 20% still would basically like to see software creators like Littlewitch put out of business or jailed.

I wonder how that could compare to the percentage if you polled Japanese fans at Akihabara or Comiket or someplace.

Some of you are probably joking though, because you think this is a pointless topic. I am always interested in free speech and censorship stories, and I thought it would be fun to take a poll to see where MMCafe stands on this matter.





[this message was edited by sabo10 on Wed 19 Jan 04:49]

Mokona
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"Re(4):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Wed 19 Jan 05:23post reply

quote:
Wow, if people are voting seriously, then I am very surprised to see that even on this forum, which is probably more biased towards Japanese pop culture than average, that currently, 20% still would basically like to see software creators like Littlewitch put out of business or jailed.

I wonder how that could compare to the percentage if you polled Japanese fans at Akihabara or Comiket or someplace.

Some of you are probably joking though, because you think this is a pointless topic. I am always interested in free speech and censorship stories, and I thought it would be fun to take a poll to see where MMCafe stands on this matter.


I voted yes without reading all the posts and assuming we were talking about "animated child sex" (as in pornography, depiction of sexual acts) which I think is as bad as the real thing, since it might (emphasis on the "might") trigger/fuel the real deal. You can't joke about those things.
I was watching a documentary on Child pornography on the internet the other day, and they were something that was really true in a sad way : they were basically saying that "when you think of all the energy and million $ that RIAA/MPAA put to bring P2P down and so little is made about online pedophiles..."





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DarkZero
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"Re(5):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Wed 19 Jan 05:51post reply

quote:

I voted yes without reading all the posts and assuming we were talking about "animated child sex" (as in pornography, depiction of sexual acts) which I think is as bad as the real thing, since it might (emphasis on the "might") trigger/fuel the real deal. You can't joke about those things.
I was watching a documentary on Child pornography on the internet the other day, and they were something that was really true in a sad way : they were basically saying that "when you think of all the energy and million $ that RIAA/MPAA put to bring P2P down and so little is made about online pedophiles..."



The reason that the capture of online pedophiles isn't as well-publicized as the RIAA and MPAA lawsuits is because A) it's an everyday thing, unlike the entertainment industry suing sixteen-year-old girls, and B) it's often handled by small FBI or local police sting operations. Pedophiles with child pornography stored on their hard drives are caught every day by the FBI and local police, but you don't see articles like "700 online pedophiles caught this month" because the same number of pedophiles are probably caught every single month of the year. It's no more interesting than "Man Takes Garbage Out; Says It's Kinda Heavy After Christmas" or "Scientists Unanimously Claim That Water Is Wet!"

This is the same kind of flawed thinking that causes legislation like this. People think that because something is being splashed across the front page of every newspaper in the nation, that means that it's COMMON, rather than a rare, unique event that the press thinks people might be interested in. So when a bunch of Japanese citizens see front page news for five days straight about a single kidnapping and murder case, they assume that something needs to be done because, obviously, if it's that well publicized, it's in danger of happening anywhere around them every minute of the day. It's actually the other way around.





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"Re(3):Lolicon backlash amongst American otaku" , posted Wed 19 Jan 06:40:post reply

quote:
You can't just throw out something that hilarious without explaining it, dude.

Nobody remembers when that janitor went nuts and stabbed some kids in a Japanese elementary school a few years back? Discussion about banning janitors in schools was rampant for a month or so, then it died out.

Edit: Come to think of it, this happens a lot. Japanese freak out whenever something bad happens and start throwing words like "ban" or "regulate" around like confetti, and nothing ever happens unless it's "magic mushrooms". Sean Connery says "No!" to drugs!

Edit: SPELL.





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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Wed 19 Jan 11:41]

Burning Ranger
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"A very gray subject" , posted Wed 19 Jan 07:59post reply

The ramifications of this topic are far reaching. Hell, consider literary works! I know the novel "Lolita" is critically acclaimed, though it depicts sexual relationships with minors. And many noteworthy authors, including Joyce Carol Oates, has written stories depicting sex with children. But then, you don't hear about this often in the media, don't you? Why doesn't the government go after these books?

Strange world we live in, huh?





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"Re(1):Lolicon" , posted Wed 19 Jan 08:57post reply

Just put a lable on it and don't sell it or make it easily obtainable to minors. Also any culture should know better than exposing to children to certain things. THE END.


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"Re(1):A very gray subject" , posted Wed 19 Jan 09:00post reply

quote:
The ramifications of this topic are far reaching. Hell, consider literary works! I know the novel "Lolita" is critically acclaimed, though it depicts sexual relationships with minors. And many noteworthy authors, including Joyce Carol Oates, has written stories depicting sex with children. But then, you don't hear about this often in the media, don't you? Why doesn't the government go after these books?

Strange world we live in, huh?

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highlandcattle
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"Re(2):A very gray subject" , posted Wed 19 Jan 20:07post reply

I dunno why it should be illegal might be a good replacement for real pedophiles out there.Besides Anime characters never look really human anyways,they look more like freaky aliens.And perhaps it is legal on their planet to have sex with minors





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Burning Ranger
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"Re(3):A very gray subject" , posted Thu 20 Jan 00:31post reply

quote:
I dunno why it should be illegal might be a good replacement for real pedophiles out there.Besides Anime characters never look really human anyways,they look more like freaky aliens.And perhaps it is legal on their planet to have sex with minors



Until Earth conquers this planet and imposes its laws on it!





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exodus
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"Re(4):A very gray subject" , posted Thu 20 Jan 03:53post reply

I agree - those that can't differentiate between fantasy and reality are already going to do fucked up things. Something shouldn't be banned just because it makes people uncomfortable. It's not going to cause people to go molest children, it's more of a deterrent for those who would. Anyone who disagrees must also consider whether videogames make people kill, steal cars, roll around giant spiky balls to accumulate cats and crabs...





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"Re(5):A very gray subject" , posted Thu 20 Jan 04:12post reply

quote:
roll around giant spiky balls to accumulate cats and crabs...


Man, I've been trying to get one of those... where d'ya find yours?

I think I agree with your latest points. I guess it is a gray subject, and I don't believe there is a real problem with that sort of art/entertainment. People who're screwed up inside are already screwed up inside... it doesn't make a big difference!





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"Re(6):A very gray subject" , posted Thu 20 Jan 05:43post reply

this whole discussion just makes me want to go raid zepy's doujinshi collection.





sabo10
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"Re(6):A very gray subject" , posted Thu 20 Jan 05:48:post reply

O.K.

Most of you are entirely missing the point. Currently, in Japan, it is completely legal to draw pictures of whatever you want, including of young children having sex. Just as long as the genitalia is obscured. (Finished with your sharp intake of breath?) It will never be illegal to do so, because, in order to be effective, the law would have to have ridiculous phrases like "sukebe imouto kyaras are entirely illegal however, turupeta neesan types can be deemed appropriate if..." and you get the idea. It is pointless to argue about.

The real issue at hand is, are these people who actually think that such laws should be passed, imposing government regulation on artistic freedom of speech, even entitled to play Japanese videogames, read comics, or watch animation in the first place? The answer is of course, No, they are not. If they really do think such a way, they should probably go back to church instead of enjoying Japanese pop subculture.





[this message was edited by sabo10 on Thu 20 Jan 06:04]

jiji
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"Re(7):A very gray subject" , posted Thu 20 Jan 05:55post reply

Gray is correct. I don't particularly like seeing children sexualized (see: popotan), but I don't think such material should be made illegal outright, because nobody's being harmed by or in the course of its production. As long as the material is used and distributed responsibly, I don't see a problem with its existence.





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"Re(8):A very gray subject" , posted Thu 20 Jan 06:50post reply

quote:
Gray is correct. I don't particularly like seeing children sexualized (see: popotan), but I don't think such material should be made illegal outright, because nobody's being harmed by or in the course of its production. As long as the material is used and distributed responsibly, I don't see a problem with its existence.


I second that.





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Mosquiton
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"Re(9):A very gray subject" , posted Thu 20 Jan 07:14post reply

From the article:

"In 2002 the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a 6-year-old law banning virtual child pornography. The subsequent "Child Obscenity and Pornography Prevention Act of 2002 banned only virtual images that are indistinguishable from real child porn, and prohibits all obscene pornographic images of prepubescent children."


This seems like a reasonable way of dealing with it to me.





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"Re(10):A very gray subject" , posted Thu 20 Jan 07:46:post reply

quote:

This seems like a reasonable way of dealing with it to me.



yeah, though still in the grey area of freedom of expression. I think that the as long as actual child porn is illegal (which maybe what the above is saying), then it's all good. This should already be true though, as it is tech. illegal for minors to have sex regardless, and consent cannot be given as an excuse if they're under 18 - as such child porn can be viewed only as an act of subjugation, never freedom of expression, as one person's rights are getting squashed in favor of another, which trumps the whole thing.

I think that already exists in japan, and basically, that's what should stay. People should be able to draw nazis porking fetuses if they want to, that's where the 'freedom to express' issue comes in.

[edit]
also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think japan has a much lower rate of this sort of actual incident (ie molestation of minors) than the US does. but that could just be because nobody reports it...still though.





[this message was edited by exodus on Thu 20 Jan 08:23]