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Korigama
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"So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups..." , posted Fri 5 Aug 23:48:post reply

Am I the only one annoyed by the upcoming wave of creatively bankrupt tripe developers are putting out in an attempt to increase interest in the genre?

As far as I'm concerned, every so-called beat'em-up in the works (Final Fight: Streetwise, Beat Down, Urban Reign, The Warriors, and Crime Life) looks every bit as dull and uninspired as the next. As a result, I expect absolutely nothing in the way of anything interesting to be contributed to the genre anytime soon, and in fact, I see this trend only leading to it regressing, ensuring that nothing even close to a revival comes about. Of course, this is just my opinion, so perhaps there are more people that are actually thrilled with the direction being taken with these games than I think there are...





[this message was edited by Korigama on Fri 5 Aug 23:49]

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catalyst
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"Re(1):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 00:11post reply

quote:
Am I the only one annoyed by the upcoming wave of creatively bankrupt tripe developers are putting out in an attempt to increase interest in the genre?

As far as I'm concerned, every so-called beat'em-up in the works (Final Fight: Streetwise, Beat Down, Urban Reign, The Warriors, and Crime Life) looks every bit as dull and uninspired as the next. As a result, I expect absolutely nothing in the way of anything interesting to be contributed to the genre anytime soon, and in fact, I see this trend only leading to it regressing, ensuring that nothing even close to a revival comes about. Of course, this is just my opinion, so perhaps there are more people that are actually thrilled with the direction being taken with these games than I think there are...



Really in my opinion, I think that overtime from our first taste of Final fight and towards double dragon and so forth with other games our tastes in gaming improved. Looking at final fight streetwise persay would probably just be a minor upgrade in what a beat em has to offer besides the typical wave after wave of enemies.

I mean personally, If anyone could confirm this for me that would be great but, wasn't the bouncer supposed to have interactive backgrounds? All to the point where you could run to the walls performing jackie chan esque style stuns or throwing people into objects into the background? Thats what got me back into the genre, then I bought the game and was heavily disappointed. Personally thats what I would like to see more in a beat em up.

Though I guess really in the line end of things of beat em ups being uninspired I guess thats how the cookie crumbles persay since they are really simple with one objective. I love the beat em up genre but I honestly you could only do so much to it then, thats it.





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Korigama
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"Re(2):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 00:34:post reply

quote:


Really in my opinion, I think that overtime from our first taste of Final fight and towards double dragon and so forth with other games our tastes in gaming improved. Looking at final fight streetwise persay would probably just be a minor upgrade in what a beat em has to offer besides the typical wave after wave of enemies.

I mean personally, If anyone could confirm this for me that would be great but, wasn't the bouncer supposed to have interactive backgrounds? All to the point where you could run to the walls performing jackie chan esque style stuns or throwing people into objects into the background? Thats what got me back into the genre, then I bought the game and was heavily disappointed. Personally thats what I would like to see more in a beat em up.

Though I guess really in the line end of things of beat em ups being uninspired I guess thats how the cookie crumbles persay since they are really simple with one objective. I love the beat em up genre but I honestly you could only do so much to it then, thats it.



True, a lot more is expected these days, but therein lies another point: developers not only failing to create something with a sense of style or atmosphere (such as what was present with the Streets of Rage series), but failing to evolve the gameplay. Part of how this could be done would be to incorporate elements of the closest related genre, fighters, which worked quite well for refining the gameplay of Devil May Cry 3, despite it, of course, not being a beat'em-up. One example of what could evolve the gameplay of beat'em-ups is another element present in fighters, the distinction between low and overhead attacks (which has yet to be done, based on what I've observed), as well as providing an incentive to mix up attacks, which, again, is something that DMC3 saw fit to do.

Aside from the actual fighting, putting more of an emphasis on story would help, but at the same time, keeping the focus on the action. Occasionally changing up game mechanics for special sections of the game could also work to positive effect. Something that should be kept, however, is a more linear path for procession, leaving things open just enough to have a little explorative freedom, but nothing along the lines of the GTA-type roaming present in the upcoming beat'em-ups (which, as I see, only serves to promote a loss of focus).

As for The Bouncer, yes, originally, there was supposed to be a lot more to it, including in the way of environmental interaction, but it never happened. I was very much disappointed in how The Bouncer turned out, winding up having the style and the atmosphere necessary for making it stand out, but not having the gameplay necessary to keep it interesting. Furthermore, though having plenty of story was nice, more time is spent watching it than playing it, which makes things even worse.





[this message was edited by Korigama on Sat 6 Aug 00:58]

Shin Ramberk
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"Re(1):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 00:54post reply

I'd like a good beat'em up. Someone show me a good beat'em please!

I remember when I was in middle school/junior high, I'd love to play TMNT2 on my NES. This was the arcade port of TMNT for the NES. And this was a very basic style beat'em. But it was so much fun.

Those were the days.

Actually if you guys want a good beat'em. Play X-Men Legends. Destructable environment, team work, light strategy, light RPG elements, good storyline, very large cast of characters to choose from, easy but complex, good variety of villains and bosses, good difficulty. WHAT MORE CAN YOU ASK FOR.





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exodus
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"Re(2):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 01:05post reply

Well - I like the new final fight game. So there!

and people still play dynasty warriors, and the 'hack and slash' is basically the 3D evolution of the beat em up.





Iggy
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"Re(3):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 01:52post reply

exactly.
My favourite beat'm ups were Knights of the Round and King of Dragons (and the D&D games) which are closer to Sengoku Basara or Sengoku Mus˘ than to Urban Reign.





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"Re(3):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 01:53:post reply

I dunno. If you want a Final Fight Game to be more Anime-esque and less GTA like you can look into Beatdowns. If that doesn't float your boat and you want some old school Final Fight, Capcom Collections promises finally an Arcade perfect home port of Final Fight part 1. So you have some options.

But I think I'll skip out on Beatdowns and look into Final Fight Streetwise. Even if it turns out bad I'm really curious what they will do with Cody's character in the game and there are supposed to be other FF Guest stars in the game. Heh, I own Final Fight Revenge and crap like Zombie Belger and oh so feminine Poison is good for laughs at best. But as FFS stands I'm not passing judgement until I play the game.





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[this message was edited by Sano on Sat 6 Aug 01:54]

Mav
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"Re(4):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 02:44post reply

Behemoth, the creative folks behind Alien Hominid, is working on a beat 'em up with RPG elements. Should prove to have a classic feel, like AH.





sabo10
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"Re(1):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 02:57post reply

quote:
Am I the only one annoyed by the upcoming wave of creatively bankrupt tripe developers are putting out in an attempt to increase interest in the genre?


I dunno, this latest Castlevania game I played seemed pretty creative.

Link here.





tenguman
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"Re(2):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 03:17post reply

quote:
Am I the only one annoyed by the upcoming wave of creatively bankrupt tripe developers are putting out in an attempt to increase interest in the genre?

I dunno, this latest Castlevania game I played seemed pretty creative.

Link here.



What game is this image from?





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Toxico
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"Re(4):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 03:41:post reply

For what I think, Beat them up genre is just a different piece of cake for everyone; everyone things something different from them and for what I see that leads companies to well, not to satisfy everyone when the games comes.

For example for fighting games is easy; everyone wants the game to be somewhat fresh, have perfect balance, be fast and many other qualities; for beat 'em up things doesn't work as clearly, some people want insanely hard games that CAN be cleared if you are good enough, others don't care about it; others want complicated characters to use and others want easy to use powerhouse that will lead them to victory.... While the example might sound kind of 'superficial'; it just comes down to what the fans say, and they just won't say that much about these games...

For the record currently I'm playing Battle Circuit on my arcades; for the time being I have beated the game with everyone but Pink Ostrich.... When I can cough up enough free time I'll try to learn to play her/it and blast of Master Program for once and it all.







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[this message was edited by Toxico on Sat 6 Aug 03:42]

sabo10
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"Re(3):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 03:44post reply

quote:
What game is this image from?


BAITED!!





exodus
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"Re(4):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 04:21post reply

quote:
exactly.



UNITE!

yeah, I liked knights of the round quite a lot, and final fight 3.

I find the new final fight fun because it's like a hack and slash version of a beat em up, in some ways.





Iggy
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"Re(5):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 04:47post reply

quote:
Pink Ostrich

I've never heard of this game, and yet I know it's the best game ever.





Pollyanna
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"Re(6):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 04:57post reply

Nothing will ever beat Guardian Heroes. I like Zombie Revenge a lot, though...because it was possible to get really good at it, rather than throwing money at opposition.

And Sengoku Basara is awesome, but I just expressed my opinions on that in a different topic.





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"Re(5):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 04:58post reply

Now, wait, what is the difference between a hack and slash and a beat em up? I always defined beat em up games as the type where you take on large groups of enemies until you get to a boss type character. But does beat em up only refer to urban settings or games that rely on lots of punching and/or jump kicks? What loosely defined genre do games like AvP or Golden Axe fall into?

As a side note the plant in Battle Circuit is one of the greatest characters ever if just for the cut scenes where it stands around and has casual conversations in an office with a guy in a suit.





Toxico
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"Re(6):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 05:00:post reply

quote:
Pink Ostrich
I've never heard of this game, and yet I know it's the best game ever.



It's a Capcom game that uses a similar engine to AvP but has a futurist theme a la Captain Commando; it should be easy yo find pics, as the game should be emulated by now... The game itself can be fun and I think it's the last Capcom beat 'em up game....

Pink Ostrich is tough.

Edit: About the Ishmael Pollyana argue -> Samurai Shodown is called a fighting game same as Guilty Gear.... Those games work with different engines and principles and are quite different from each others (you could say that they COULD be exact opposites), but they are still in the same genre because fighting is the point of it...

Now, do you get my idea; or do I have to kidnap your childrens?????







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[this message was edited by Toxico on Sat 6 Aug 05:05]

Pollyanna
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"Re(6):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 05:00post reply

quote:
What loosely defined genre do games like AvP or Golden Axe fall into?



If you don't call Golden Axe a beat'em-up simply because you don't fight with your fists, then I don't want to talk to you anymore. (I don't mean you)

That's just silly.





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"Re(6):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 06:28post reply

quote:
Now, wait, what is the difference between a hack and slash and a beat em up?



roughly, I'd say a pure beat em up is something you can only do in 2D, where you have per-pixel precision, like a 2D fighting game with a 3rd plane of movement. Past that it's a 3D beat em up.

a hack and slash I consider to be a largely 3D creation, like dynasty warriors or sengoku basara, in which fighting is not based on distance, but timing. enemies will always be around you, it's a matter of when you swing your sword. these games also tend to have you fighting in all directions at once, with your weapons swinging around you, whereas beat em ups have you fighting and comboing in one direction.

does that sound reasonable?





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"Re(7):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 07:15post reply

I thought hack'n'slash was a termf or action RPGs.





Iggy
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"Re(7):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 07:23post reply

quote:
Now, do you get my idea; or do I have to kidnap your childrens?????


I can't decide which selfquote would be best to answer this... "A good child is a dead child" or "It's pointless to make children in a society where cannibalism is not hip anymore" ?





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"Re(8):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 10:07post reply

quote:

I can't decide which selfquote would be best to answer this... "A good child is a dead child" or "It's pointless to make children in a society where cannibalism is not hip anymore" ?



Iggy have you been reading Snowstorm's posts? Be afraid. Be very afraid.





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"Re(9):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 10:45:post reply

Best beat'em up I have played recently is Double Dragon for GBA. Otherwise, I haven't played a good one since the days of Streets of Rage 2, AvP and others.

I don't know when the 3D genre will ever have a great SSBEM. Maybe the world isn't ready for that to happen yet.





[this message was edited by EddyT on Sat 6 Aug 10:48]

CauseOfChaos
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"Re:So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 12:09:post reply

Since when have people stopped calling 2D Fighters "beat'em-ups"? I used to refer games like Streets of Rage as "Sideways Scrolling beat'em-ups", and Dynasty Warriors as "Hack'n Slashers".

And yeah, recent ones have been plain boring. The last one I've enjoyed was CVS2 (Don't laugh peeps, thats where I started my SNK experience!!!)

cause_of_chaos







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[this message was edited by CauseOfChaos on Sat 6 Aug 12:10]

Baines
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"Re(2):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 15:26:post reply

quote:
Looking at final fight streetwise persay would probably just be a minor upgrade in what a beat em has to offer besides the typical wave after wave of enemies.


One of the descriptions I read of Streetwise said you still fought enemies in waves.

quote:
I mean personally, If anyone could confirm this for me that would be great but, wasn't the bouncer supposed to have interactive backgrounds?


The original description of The Bouncer sounded pretty much matched a description of Powerstone, with phrases like "fights that look just like a Hollywood action movie" thrown into the mix.

Beat'em-ups in 3D so far have only really been successful in the Sengoku Musou mold, where increasing the enemy counts makes up for the lack of depth in the average beat'em-up engine. (And collectibles, leveling, free play of any of a large number of missions, and other aspects fight the longevity problem that classic beat'em-ups would have in today's market.)

X-Men Legends is a fun game, but even it fails on the replay aspect as well as the multiplayer ease aspect. (Strange for a game designed specifically with four player in mind to have half the missions force 1-3 players instead.) Personally, I could ask for a lot more from Legends. Free selection of all completed mission in the Danger Room with all characters available would be a start, and a player-adjustable difficulty slide for those missions would be the next (preferably not only with increases in hp/damage, but also more enemies and even some changes in enemies.) Legends really hurts in the replayable aspect, with alternate costumes being the only reward for starting over. Some of the characters are available only briefly, and there is nothing to do once you beat Master Mold but start over or quit.

And as someone else said, hack 'n slash is an description that really just means violence over thinking or role-playing or even much story. A hack 'n slash doesn't actually require weapons, though being primarily a fantasy game term weapons are generally assumed.





[this message was edited by Baines on Sat 6 Aug 15:33]

Iggy
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"Re(9):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 19:11post reply

quote:
Iggy have you been reading Snowstorm's posts? Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Who ?





Sano
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"Re(10):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups." , posted Sat 6 Aug 23:26:post reply

Snowstorm is a girl who runs a Project Justice Website. She thinks that the message behind Project Justice (Rival Schools) is that you shouldn't have babies and adopt, having babies is evil and wrong. She's most famous for being one of the only people who banned TiamatRoar and for time the late great SRK member Mummy-B mind raped her. RIP Mummy-B.





Ryu and Chun-Li forever!

[this message was edited by Sano on Sat 6 Aug 23:29]

Iggy
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"Re(2):Re(10):So many sorry excuses for beat'e" , posted Sun 7 Aug 00:38post reply

quote:
Snowstorm is a girl who runs a Project Justice Website.

I'm already afraid.
quote:
She thinks that the message behind Project Justice (Rival Schools) is that you shouldn't have babies and adopt, having babies is evil and wrong.

So far, nothing wrong.
quote:
She's most famous for being one of the only people who banned TiamatRoar

Yickes.
quote:
for time the late great SRK member Mummy-B mind raped her.

Can you explain the concept of "mind raping" for my foreign innocent mind please ?

She seems like a lovely person.





Sano
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"Re(3):Re(10):So many sorry excuses for beat'e" , posted Sun 7 Aug 01:00:post reply

quote:
Can you explain the concept of "mind raping" for my foreign innocent mind please ?

She seems like a lovely person.



Oh, Mummy-B just owned her in a debate about her not having children ways. "Mind raping" is the term us SRKers dubbed it, I'm not sure who was the first to say it. Lovely person? She banned Tiamatroar not once, but twice for tying to educate her about the storyline.





Ryu and Chun-Li forever!

[this message was edited by Sano on Sun 7 Aug 01:01]

Iggy
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"Re(4):Re(10):So many sorry excuses for beat'e" , posted Sun 7 Aug 02:35:post reply

quote:
Lovely person? She banned Tiamatroar not once, but twice for tying to educate her about the storyline.

Since I recall Tiamatroar as a very nice person when he posted here, I would LOVE to read the argument.





[this message was edited by Iggy on Sun 7 Aug 02:37]

Gojira
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"Re(5):Re(10):So many sorry excuses for beat'e" , posted Sun 7 Aug 06:05post reply

Personally I think that beat-em ups are just an antiquated simple genre these days, like shooters. That's not to say they're bad, just that, generally speaking, in beat-em ups you just fight, and in shooters you just shoot. It's hard for most people to accept that as a genre, since in general many genres these days have evolved to include the same features of fighting and/or shooting. So, when a pure one comes along it just looks so limited by comparison (empasis on "looks"). That doesn't necessarily mean it will end up playing as bad as it looks though.





catalyst
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"Re(3):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sun 7 Aug 07:31post reply

quote:
Looking at final fight streetwise persay would probably just be a minor upgrade in what a beat em has to offer besides the typical wave after wave of enemies.

One of the descriptions I read of Streetwise said you still fought enemies in waves.





Actually what I was speaking of was the mission esque GTA like sidemission what will occur in the game. The enemies of course comes in bundles, after watching one video on gamespot with Kyle fighting some new enemies on the new drugs floating around in streetwise, thats alot of enemies!





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Sano
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"Re(5):Re(10):So many sorry excuses for beat'e" , posted Sun 7 Aug 22:02:post reply

quote:
Lovely person? She banned Tiamatroar not once, but twice for tying to educate her about the storyline.
Since I recall Tiamatroar as a very nice person when he posted here, I would LOVE to read the argument.



The first time Snowstorm banned Tiamatroar is tough to find. The second time she banned him Tiamatroar posted under a different name and Snowstorm said "I know it's you Tiamatroar" and banned him again. That link is easier to find, but there isn't much to it.

Anyway, here's the late great Mummy-B (Goes by yamazato on this thread) vs. Snowstorm. Special thanks to thedude.com for giving me the link. Snowstorm gets a mental... "Beat'em up!" Who says I've strayed to far away from the topic...

Link





Ryu and Chun-Li forever!

[this message was edited by Sano on Sun 7 Aug 23:35]

Iggy
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"Re(6):Re(10):So many sorry excuses for beat'e" , posted Sun 7 Aug 22:44post reply

Wow.
She's....
She's huge.





Sano
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"Re(7):Re(10):So many sorry excuses for beat'e" , posted Mon 8 Aug 00:40post reply

quote:
Wow.
She's....
She's huge.



I've drawn the same conclusion.





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"Re(1):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Mon 8 Aug 05:26:post reply

About hack and slash... I'd say this is a term that can be applied to action games in general that fit certain criteria, and isn't necessarily limited to certain sub-genres. It implies a certain mindlessness and an absence of any notable activities outside combat. The phrase is often rendered as 'mindless hack and slash', and is epitomized in games such as Gauntlet: Dark Legacy, Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance, and Diablo.

That's just my working definition.

I really think you need weapons for a 'hack and slash' though. I can't think of any game I'd consider hack and slash without...


But as for beat 'em ups, you can beat a guy up with the assistance of weapons (or even guns, as in Capcom's Alien vs Predator. At any rate, I think that technique may be one of the crucial things that separates a beat 'em up from a hack and slash in my mind.

And speaking of beat 'em ups with weapons I'd like to take this opportunity to tell everyone that PIRATES OF DARK WATER for the SNES is a pretty damn excellent example of the genre... with weapons! Very unoriginal in most respects, but it does let you throw a strong weapon hit anytime you like, which can also be linked into combos. It's quite a fun game really... I need to look into who made it (haven't played it in many years).

But seriously, check it out. I played the hell out of the game with my bro back in the day. Great fun.





/ / /

[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Mon 8 Aug 05:40]

exodus
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"Re(1):Re:So many sorry excuses for beat'em-up" , posted Tue 9 Aug 02:40post reply

quote:
Since when have people stopped calling 2D Fighters "beat'em-ups"?



this was only ever done in europe, where everything's backwards anyway. And I think they actually stopped doing it there a while ago, cept maybe in france.





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"Re(2):Re:So many sorry excuses for beat'em-up" , posted Tue 9 Aug 07:30post reply

quote:
Since when have people stopped calling 2D Fighters "beat'em-ups"?


this was only ever done in europe, where everything's backwards anyway. And I think they actually stopped doing it there a while ago, cept maybe in france.



No. In france the usual term for 2D (and 3D) fighters is "jeu de baston". Beat'em ups are usually refered to as beat'em all for a reason so stupid it had to be added in Wikipedia last sunday. I am not messing with you.

But Brandon, honestly, look back at your old issues of Gamepro: everyone in the western world called fighters "beat'em ups" in the days of Street Fighter II, around 1991. The difference between regular beat'em ups and fighters was still unclear for a short period of time, and fighters were seen by most people as an evolution of beat'em ups where you'd jump straight to the boss. Most early fighters of the era felt like that - such as SNK's first challengers to SFII, Garou Densetsu and Ryuuko no Ken, which were much more focused on the solo game than on multiplayer versus. Multiplayer versus was a natural addition, but it's success was almost an accident. Nobody at the time thought it would become the most important aspect of fighters. Of course, with the ongoing success of SFII and it's multiplayer competition scene, things became more clear. But if you check back fighting games from 1991/1992, you can perceive how puzzled game designers were with what should be the main interest of fighters and how different they are from beat'em ups*. Another clear example of that situation is Sega's policy to counter the buzz around the SFII port on the Super Famicom. The game they chose was Bare Knuckles II, pushing much PR efforts on the fact it also had a versus mode and special moves just like that other beat'em up on the SFC which you guys don't need then kthanks.



*You can find a form of inheritance of this era in games like Metamoqester and Warzard





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"Re(3):Re:So many sorry excuses for beat'em-up" , posted Tue 9 Aug 09:31post reply

haha...well truly I have no place to talk. I never read anything about games until 1996, and even then, I only read one season of game informer, and the mmc, magic-box and Saturn World.

Then I didn't read anything else til starting IC.

So! My ideas here mean nothing, and I'll just side with what you say.