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| Time Mage 1814th Post
 
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
  
    
    
    
    
|  "What if DS4 where cell-shaded?"
, posted Sun 29 Feb 03:56:
In the hypotetical case that they made a DarkStalkers 4, and it where announced to have 3D graphics with the cell-shading technique... Do you think you would like it?
I'm assuming top-level cell shading techniques, with AT LEAST the level of detail and "2Dism" of Viewtiful Joe, so it would not look like a Tekken or a DOA (well they could add bounce to the girls ;)).
I know that most of us, if not all, would prefer a Hi-res, great-animation, giant cast 2D DarkStalkers 4, but being realistic I think that slowly, but steadily 2D fighting games are going to dissapear, and the first to fall are going to be the not-so-popular franchises, like DS.
So, what would you think?
Edit: Spelling.
[this message was edited by Time Mage on Sun 29 Feb 04:49] |
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| Gen 2533th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
 
| "Re(1):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Sun 29 Feb 04:28
quote:
In the hypotetical case that they made a DarkStalkers 4, and it where announced to have 3D graphics with the cell-shading technique... Do you think you would like it?
I'm assuming top-level cell shading techniques, with AT LEAST the level of detail and "2Dism" of Viewtiful Joe, so it would not look like a Tekken or a DOA (well they could add bounce to the girls ;)).
I know that mos of us, if not all, would prefer a Hi-res, great-animation, giant cast 2D DarkStalkers 4, but being realistic I think that slowly, but steadily 2D fighting games are going to dissapear, and the first to fall are going to be the not-so-popular franchises, like DS.
So, what would you think?
No!
They should just hand draw them in 2D in an animation style stead of making computer models pretend like they are 2d colored in pics.
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| Luisinan 785th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(1):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Sun 29 Feb 07:03
Interesting idea. And it would probably look good, but it wouldn't work because...
Capcom and SNK 2D fighters have top notch game engines and game play because of one thing- frame animation. Everything that can be done in a Cap/SNK 2D fighter can be timed based on the number of animation frames. Because of this, top level game play can be executed by just watching the frame animation carefully. A lot of stuff is actually calculated in frame counts in these fighters.
Granted, refined 3D fighters like Virtua Fighter have game play that revolves around careful observation of character animation- and its very similar to frame counting in 2D animation BUT its not exactly the same.
Ultimately, a non-2D sprite animated DS would probably fail because hardcore fans would reject it for throwing away the frame counting method that DS games have always used. Its a shame that DS character designs will probably never be used again but Capcom would be better off making a brand new game with this idea then reusing DS.
Also, I think some of the major complaints about SFEX was that all the characters played the same and game play was too mechanical. There is some truth to the similar fighting style to the characters, a lot of characters had identical basic attacks (ducking medium kicks, standing jabs, etc.) And the game play was a little formulaic too-- if you had the correct positioning, you had a 99% success rate of completing your combo (if you knew the exact timing of moves). In 2D fighters, things are more chaotic because your dealing with postioning + frames + timing. I love SFEX+A, but I can see how things were a little more simpler with that game.
Bored? "160"
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| NARUTO 2207th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Sun 29 Feb 11:39:
everyone here already know my opinion on the 2D/3D fighting games, so I won't bring everything ones more, but 2 things: 1st IMO a VS who have started to be in 2D should stay and die in 2D, so far there more people who bash a 2D game when is turned into 3D (like SF ex or MK for exemple). A good 3D game should be created from the begining to use the adventage the 3D can gives, like movement and such and note trying to adapt a 2D gameplay who won't match with the system.
Finaly as for DS especialy I think it'll be the hardest game to turn in 3D, since I can't see how they can made the crazy animation the characters have, like huge punch, weapon, just look at Phobos or Pyron, I don't see them in 3D.
Rid: I don't think that the publis prefer 3D vs game, 1st we all know that this board is full of 2D fan, and if you look at the last "ARCADIA fighting Opera" there is much more 2D games than 3D ones.
And for those who think that there is only 3 games in 3D in this tournament because ther is only 3 of those in the market, I'll answer them that if 3D "is" a so good point for Vs games why isn't there more of those 3D games than just 3?????
Still I agree on the Expensive /harder to make part, at this point it's up to the devepoper to know if he wants to me an easy game that sells normaly or a hard game where the sells can be the 2 times Less or 2 times mor. Strangely they didn't make the bet.
[this message was edited by NARUTO on Sun 29 Feb 11:44] |
| Time Mage 1814th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(5):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Sun 29 Feb 13:36
Well, I've realized that I haven't posted my opinion.
The reason I've posted this question is because I read somewhere (I think from Sano, quoting someone else) that some Capcom guy said that "In the time we take to make a totally new 2D fighter, we can do three 3D fighters that look 2D", or something similar to that.
So, we all agree that the costs are lower for 3D games. And it's commonly known that the average gamer will prefer a 3D game over a 2D one ALWAYS (an average gamer, mind you). Also, new techniques like the Cell Shading are closing the gap between 3D and 2D aesthetics, even if there's still a lot of work to do in that direction.
So, as much as we love 2D graphics (because, don't doubt it, I love 2D graphics), if the producers can do something with more or less the "feel" of a 2D game, with less effort, and the same or more sales, they will eventually do it.
And from my perspective, if I see a game that looks good and "2D-ish" and plays good (and in this case, with a DS feel), I'd buy it without a doubt.
Finally, a question for the 2D fundamentalists: If you eventually see a, let's say, 3D KOF that looks EXACTLY like if it was made in 2D, but with the added features that 3D graphics give (better hit detection, better animation, easy outfit change for the characters, etc...), Would you still refuse it, just because "it's 3D"?
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| Undead Fred 1371th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(4):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Sun 29 Feb 17:12
quote:
everyone here already know my opinion on the 2D/3D fighting games, so I won't bring everything ones more, but 2 things: 1st IMO a VS who have started to be in 2D should stay and die in 2D, so far there more people who bash a 2D game when is turned into 3D (like SF ex or MK for exemple). A good 3D game should be created from the begining to use the adventage the 3D can gives, like movement and such and note trying to adapt a 2D gameplay who won't match with the system.
Finaly as for DS especialy I think it'll be the hardest game to turn in 3D, since I can't see how they can made the crazy animation the characters have, like huge punch, weapon, just look at Phobos or Pyron, I don't see them in 3D.
Rid: I don't think that the publis prefer 3D vs game, 1st we all know that this board is full of 2D fan, and if you look at the last "ARCADIA fighting Opera" there is much more 2D games than 3D ones.
And for those who think that there is only 3 games in 3D in this tournament because ther is only 3 of those in the market, I'll answer them that if 3D "is" a so good point for Vs games why isn't there more of those 3D games than just 3?????
Still I agree on the Expensive /harder to make part, at this point it's up to the devepoper to know if he wants to me an easy game that sells normaly or a hard game where the sells can be the 2 times Less or 2 times mor. Strangely they didn't make the bet.
I wish there was some way to help people in general to learn to appreciate 2D. It's sad that 2D is apparently dying out when it shouldn't be.
I don't mind game spin-offs in 3D, as long as they're just spin-offs. If the "real" game stays in 2D, then I don't mind side 3D games. I'd play a 3D Darkstalkers game (although I don't see it happening unless they change character designs around to be "3D-friendly"... Felicia's hair might be a problem, at the very least). I'd just really really hate to see the series end up as a 3D-only game. Besides, Capcom's 2D fighters have ALWAYS been way way way better than their 3D games...
There are some really good 3D fighters out there, but I hate the idea of really good 2D games going 3D just because "the kids like the 3D these days" and no other reason. There's also the issue of the 2D game having such an effect on the production of the 3D game that it just ends up as the 2D game with 3D models and environments and a sidestep. That's not a guaranteed situation, but it can easily happen.
BLARGBLARG PLACE YOUR BETS!
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| OYashiroForever 726th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(6):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Sun 29 Feb 17:52
quote:
So, what would you think?
In the case of any and all of the Capcom 2D fighting game franchises, I would rather there be NO new release than a half-assed 3D bastardization. This isn't because I'm "hardc0re" or hate 3D. It's because:
1) Capcom has let go much of their fighting game staff. The glory days are over... I've faced the reality and dealt with it.
2) No 3D fighting game has ever captured the spirit, speed, and the technical/multi-leveled strategy of a good 2D fighting game yet. Not saying that it could never be done... I just don't think Capcom in its current impoverished, state can.
quote:
Finally, a question for the 2D fundamentalists: If you eventually see a, let's say, 3D KOF that looks EXACTLY like if it was made in 2D, but with the added features that 3D graphics give (better hit detection, better animation, easy outfit change for the characters, etc...), Would you still refuse it, just because "it's 3D"?
3D fighting games don't have "better" hit detection. They have different hit detection... I'd go in to the specifics, but it's too boring and technical and no one would care anyway. In addition, I'm willing to try any fighting game. However, I will probably always prefer 2D fighting games.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
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| VManOfMana 346th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(9):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Sun 29 Feb 18:25
Well, I ask myself. Isn't it possible to find a mix between both?
Essentially a 2D fighter is a set of sprites and a set of hit boxes placed at a specific set of frames of a movement. And if I am not mistaken, games like CvS2 and MvC2 are 3D games, with the characters being a texture applied to a plane polygon.
What I am thinking is, a fighter that is 100% 3D, but that has the elements that make a 2D fighter engine. That's what I think is the case of Viewtiful Joe, with animations completely based on polygons, but at the same time using hit boxes like any 2D fighter (actually, VJ still has 2D elements, with items like bombs and food being a plane polygon with a 2D texture, just like modern 2D fighters).
That way, we can combine the 3D eye-candy with what makes a 2D a great game. The fact that a game is 3D does not mean it has to use 3D hit detection.
Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
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| Gen 2535th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Sun 29 Feb 21:56
quote:
No!
They should just hand draw them in 2D in an animation style stead of making computer models pretend like they are 2d colored in pics.2D graphics drawbacks:
quote:
-2D don't sells, the market prefers 3D games
bad market!
quote:
-2D doesn't has support from the hardware developers, it's hard to publish 2D games for actual systems, due to those "quality restrictions"
bad Sony!
quote:
-the quality in 2D animation teams is dropping. Newer games like GGXX, RotD or PI:M hardly have the quality as SF3, Garou MOW or LB2.
:( quote:
-the idea behind cell shading isn't imitating 2D games, but anime-styled coloring,
Maybe you weren't refering to me but I know, it's the reason why it's called "cel" shaded, because it's imitating hand drawn cel animation.
quote:
shaand anime series aren't as static as 2D games, and much less only viewed from the side.
-2D game animation is considerably more expensive and suffers more from hardware limitation.
Example of a 3D game with 2D gameplay that works: Klonoa 2.
I think regular 3D is superior to "cel shaded" 3D.
I'd most want to play real 2D dark stalkers, then a 3D dark stalkers, and I'd least want to play 3D cel shaded Dark Stalkers, because cel shading looks like flash animation.
Think happy thoughts.
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| hikarutilmitt
169th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(10):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Sun 29 Feb 23:37
quote:
Well, I ask myself. Isn't it possible to find a mix between both?
Essentially a 2D fighter is a set of sprites and a set of hit boxes placed at a specific set of frames of a movement. And if I am not mistaken, games like CvS2 and MvC2 are 3D games, with the characters being a texture applied to a plane polygon.
What I am thinking is, a fighter that is 100% 3D, but that has the elements that make a 2D fighter engine. That's what I think is the case of Viewtiful Joe, with animations completely based on polygons, but at the same time using hit boxes like any 2D fighter (actually, VJ still has 2D elements, with items like bombs and food being a plane polygon with a 2D texture, just like modern 2D fighters).
That way, we can combine the 3D eye-candy with what makes a 2D a great game. The fact that a game is 3D does not mean it has to use 3D hit detection.
Good thing I'm not the only one replying in this topic that understands that fully.
Frame counting still isn't even really a 2D thing for the most part because frame-reading in 2D games is a different system altogether. You find out which frame of animation a move has hit boxes for in 2D fighters, and in 3D fighters it's how long a move takes to execute to get to its hit frames. So, basically, it's not REALLY frame counting.
Oddly, though VF is certainly the most balanced fighter out there, and is in 3D will full movement, it still uses hit boxes. The thing is, since it's a 3D fighter, you use frame counting to know how much of an advantage or disadvantage you have, as well as whether a mvoe is guaranteed to hit or not.
*has vomiting of the fingers tonight*
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| NARUTO 2209th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Mon 1 Mar 02:31
quote:
Finally, a question for the 2D fundamentalists: If you eventually see a, let's say, 3D KOF that looks EXACTLY like if it was made in 2D, but with the added features that 3D graphics give, Would you still refuse it, just because "it's 3D"?
I will.
Here's why, because in 3D a KOF won't be a true KOF for me. What I like in the KOF series are two things, Gampeplay, and graphic style. Turning the game in 3D will obviously make the graphic style goes away, since I doesn't really like the 3d graphisms this game already loses 1 of his point to me.
2nd, we surely know that the 3D won't have the outstanding graphisms they can do, they won't have a chance agaisnt VF4 for exemple who Have IMO the best 3D graphisms. So what's the point to make 3D graphisms that won't stand agaisnt the concurency???? If it's just for today kids, they can go in hell with them...
As for the gameplay, 2D gamplay and 3D gameplay doesn't match, even for game like Rival school I didn't have the feeling of playing a 2D game. KOF speed and combos are the key of MY style of play, but Combo in 3D game are limited, like someone says with a 5 hit your life bar is empty, Air play is in some kind nonexistant in 3D game, VF, Tekken and other absolutly doesn't use Jump/air as a 2D game will do, and even in game like SF ex or Rival school the air play isn't the same.
Have you tryed to start a combo by an Jump kick move in rival school??
Finaly, as you said Time mage, if the game alows 3D features, where the point of taking KOF licence for that??? I mean even a simple side step, will make dozen of special and super moves to turn completely use less...
fire ball for exemple: in a 2D game when a fire ball comes you have 3 option:
-1st: you "maybe" can negate it, reverse it.
-2nd: you can block it, with little damage.
-3rd: you can jump over it.
With your new side step, eveyone will become lazy and avoid it by the side, thus far fire bal will become really useless with the little chance they'll have to hit. And teleport moves won't bring you behind your oponent for sure, Dragon punch will be limited since the air-play is limited too...
And I don't talk about the special effect, the super moves that makes combos of 28 hit, and so on and so on...
Ready clearly what I said, 3D game AREN'T BAD, they AREN'T the demon you must kill, I just say that a 2D serie should NEVER be turned in a 3D games. if the serie start in 3D there is no problem but never turn one 2D to 3D and vice & versa.
quote:
There are some really good 3D fighters out there, but I hate the idea of really good 2D games going 3D just because "the kids like the 3D these days" and no other reason.
Agree to that.
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| Henaki
123th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Tue 2 Mar 21:16
To be honest, I like how 2D fighters use hitboxes as opposed to where the attack frames are, simply because it's actually more accurate.
I don't feel like missing some guy because his arm is slightly higher in his animation. There's more studying of the properties of the move, rather than how fast it comes out, and where it hits.
I think it's possible to do a good job making a 2D esque 3D figher. Just use a layering system for the hitboxes that keeps track of the position of the character relative to the actual field of play.
This will also cut down on work entirely, instead of drawing invididual sprites, you can have entire frames of movement from one character, and we can actually have STANCES in a 2D playing field! (GASP!!! SOMETHING COOL IN 2D THAT HASN'T BEEN DONE WELL YET!).
Anyway, I'm tired and ranting, so eh.
So...how about those...things....
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| Undead Fred 1380th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(7):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" , posted Wed 3 Mar 13:25
quote:
I will.
Here's why, because in 3D a KOF won't be a true KOF for me. What I like in the KOF series are two things, Gampeplay, and graphic style. Turning the game in 3D will obviously make the graphic style goes away, since I doesn't really like the 3d graphisms this game already loses 1 of his point to me.
2nd, we surely know that the 3D won't have the outstanding graphisms they can do, they won't have a chance agaisnt VF4 for exemple who Have IMO the best 3D graphisms. So what's the point to make 3D graphisms that won't stand agaisnt the concurency???? If it's just for today kids, they can go in hell with them...
As for the gameplay, 2D gamplay and 3D gameplay doesn't match, even for game like Rival school I didn't have the feeling of playing a 2D game. KOF speed and combos are the key of MY style of play, but Combo in 3D game are limited, like someone says with a 5 hit your life bar is empty, Air play is in some kind nonexistant in 3D game, VF, Tekken and other absolutly doesn't use Jump/air as a 2D game will do, and even in game like SF ex or Rival school the air play isn't the same.
Have you tryed to start a combo by an Jump kick move in rival school??
Finaly, as you said Time mage, if the game alows 3D features, where the point of taking KOF licence for that??? I mean even a simple side step, will make dozen of special and super moves to turn completely use less...
fire ball for exemple: in a 2D game when a fire ball comes you have 3 option:
-1st: you "maybe" can negate it, reverse it.
-2nd: you can block it, with little damage.
-3rd: you can jump over it.
With your new side step, eveyone will become lazy and avoid it by the side, thus far fire bal will become really useless with the little chance they'll have to hit. And teleport moves won't bring you behind your oponent for sure, Dragon punch will be limited since the air-play is limited too...
And I don't talk about the special effect, the super moves that makes combos of 28 hit, and so on and so on...
Ready clearly what I said, 3D game AREN'T BAD, they AREN'T the demon you must kill, I just say that a 2D serie should NEVER be turned in a 3D games. if the serie start in 3D there is no problem but never turn one 2D to 3D and vice & versa.
There you go. Very good points, and I agree.
Once again, it's not to say I wouldn't TRY the game if it were made, but a 2D game series officially converting to 3D is a bad idea. There are a great number of people that prefer the style of the 2D gameplay as well as the graphics, and going 3D for novelty's sake takes two of the biggest things that we liked about the game away. Yes, the characters are still there, but playing with them wouldn't be nearly as fun anymore. The gameplay might sort of REFERENCE the 2D play, but it will still be totally different.
Cel-shading the 3D graphics will never fool anyone into thinking that it's actually 2D graphics unless they fix the framerate to mimic 2D. Otherwise, you can totally tell it's just 3D graphics with a 2D shader. Now, if they get a really awesome shader on fairly high-red models and have stepped keyframes at 24-30fps THEN they might convince some people that it's a 2D game while using 3D graphics.... but then they'd still have to limit the camera movement so it doesn't tip people off... and so on and so on. If the plan is to make 3D graphics pretend to be REAL 2D stuff and not just reference it, then it would be a lot of work. Otherwise, people will be able to tell that it's not.
BLARGBLARG PLACE YOUR BETS!
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"Re(1):What if DS4 where cell-shaded?" 
