| Original message ([an error occurred while processing this directive] Views )[an error occurred while processing this directive]
| Replies:
|
| VManOfMana 264th Post
 
Copper Customer
    
|  "Re(6):Anime outlook for Adultswim"
, posted Mon 24 Nov 16:38:
Gen got a point. Digisubs are a complete new beast compared to tape fansubs, and I am not sure it is a good thing.
In the old days, people had to dish out money for the tapes and shipping and wait for at least a month. And of course, there were a lot less titles available in fansub form. Nowadays, people is able to get almost anything that is on Japan right now within a week (or less) after it aired in Japan, and can get the episode less than a day after the fansub is out.
I can relate to what Gen said of the viewing rooms. On AnimeExpo 2003, I didn't go to any viewing room, which is a huge constract to the amount of time I spend watching (tape) fansubs on AnimeExpo 1999 and Otakon 2000. Either the title was subtitled, it didn't interest or *surprise*, I had already seen the first two episodes of it. The advantage was that I was able to spend time on other things, but the fact is that there is not much reason to go to the rooms anymore. Something that did amaze me was the amount of people carrying laptops around with CDs and CDs of fansubs, some of them watching licensed stuff (I carried some CDs myself as well, but spend all of my laptop time playing Eternal Fighter Zero - for some reason I felt bad about playing those CDs inside the con).
IMO, this has created a generation of selfish anime "fans" who call themselves fans just because they can get their anime fast and cheap. Worse, they actually whine when an episode is not out before a week after the original episode aired, or actually whine about having to wait in a queue to get the file. Wonder how many of those persons have actually bought the licensed DVDs of those shows the have leeched, or if they actually allocate a percentage of their income in supporting the industry.
I can bet that less than 20% of these persons would be anime fans if digisubs did not exist. Before, I used to see someone getting a fansub as a sign of fandom because the process was actually painful and cumbersome (despite being cheaper than going to the store), but now... what can I say? It's almost the opposite.
In the end, however, I don't think fansubs are at fault. Fansubs have a purpose, but people is misusing them.
Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Mon 24 Nov 16:44] |
| Gen 2265th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
    
   
| "fan sub" , posted Mon 24 Nov 16:52
quote:
Gen got a point. Digisubs are a complete new beast compared to tape fansubs, and I am not sure it is a good thing.
In the old days, people had to dish out money for the tapes and shipping and wait for at least a month. And of course, there were a lot less titles available in fansub form. Nowadays, people is able to get almost anything that is on Japan right now within a week (or less) after it aired in Japan, and can get the episode less than a day after the fansub is out.
I can relate to what Gen said of the viewing rooms. On AnimeExpo 2003, I didn't go to any viewing room, which is a huge constract to the amount of time I spend watching (tape) fansubs on AnimeExpo 1999 and Otakon 2000. Either the title was subtitled, it didn't interest or *surprise*, I had already seen the first two episodes of it. The advantage was that I was able to spend time on other things, but the fact is that there is not much reason to go to the rooms anymore. Something that did amaze me was the amount of people carrying laptops around with CDs and CDs of fansubs, some of them watching licensed stuff (I carried some CDs myself as well, but spend all of my laptop time playing Eternal Fighter Zero - for some reason I felt bad about playing those CDs inside the con).
IMO, this has created a generation of selfish anime "fans" who call themselves fans just because they can get their anime fast and cheap. Worse, they actually whine when an episode is not out before a week after the original episode aired, or actually whine about having to wait in a queue to get the file. Wonder how many of those persons have actually bought the licensed DVDs of those shows the have leeched, or if they actually allocate a percentage of their income in supporting the industry.
I can bet that less than 20% of these persons would be anime fans if digisubs did not exist. Before, I used to see someone getting a fansub as a sign of fandom because the process was actually painful and cumbersome (despite being cheaper than going to the store), but now... what can I say? It's almost the opposite.
In the end, however, I don't think fansubs are at fault. Fansubs have a purpose, but people is misusing them.
It's true, not all of them but a lot of internet fan sub downloading 'anime fans' are annoying and immature, though so is most of the internet I guess. People who would send two blank tapes and an un subbed movie across the country to a fan subber and get one of the blank tapes back months later with a fan sub recorded on it (the other was like payment) were always interesting people to me. (Of course there're variations on the above fan sub trading too.)
|
| Gojira 1202th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(7):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Mon 24 Nov 18:04
quote:
Gen got a point. Digisubs are a complete new beast compared to tape fansubs, and I am not sure it is a good thing.
In the old days, people had to dish out money for the tapes and shipping and wait for at least a month. And of course, there were a lot less titles available in fansub form. Nowadays, people is able to get almost anything that is on Japan right now within a week (or less) after it aired in Japan, and can get the episode less than a day after the fansub is out.
I can relate to what Gen said of the viewing rooms. On AnimeExpo 2003, I didn't go to any viewing room, which is a huge constract to the amount of time I spend watching (tape) fansubs on AnimeExpo 1999 and Otakon 2000. Either the title was subtitled, it didn't interest or *surprise*, I had already seen the first two episodes of it. The advantage was that I was able to spend time on other things, but the fact is that there is not much reason to go to the rooms anymore. Something that did amaze me was the amount of people carrying laptops around with CDs and CDs of fansubs, some of them watching licensed stuff (I carried some CDs myself as well, but spend all of my laptop time playing Eternal Fighter Zero - for some reason I felt bad about playing those CDs inside the con).
IMO, this has created a generation of selfish anime "fans" who call themselves fans just because they can get their anime fast and cheap. Worse, they actually whine when an episode is not out before a week after the original episode aired, or actually whine about having to wait in a queue to get the file. Wonder how many of those persons have actually bought the licensed DVDs of those shows the have leeched, or if they actually allocate a percentage of their income in supporting the industry.
I can bet that less than 20% of these persons would be anime fans if digisubs did not exist. Before, I used to see someone getting a fansub as a sign of fandom because the process was actually painful and cumbersome (despite being cheaper than going to the store), but now... what can I say? It's almost the opposite.
In the end, however, I don't think fansubs are at fault. Fansubs have a purpose, but people is misusing them.
Yeah, that's a lot of what I was thinking except for one thing: I really don't think fansubs are necessary any more. 15 years ago it was the only way to watch anime, but now that the industry has grown considerably they only serve as a way to reward impatience. The idea of fansubbing was mainly just for collectors but these days collecting seems to mean more the Pokemon sense of "gotta catch 'em all" running around and nabbing everything in sight than a respectable hobby.
|
| Radish 1919th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(7):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Mon 24 Nov 18:06:
quote:
Gen got a point. Digisubs are a complete new beast compared to tape fansubs, and I am not sure it is a good thing.
In the old days, people had to dish out money for the tapes and shipping and wait for at least a month. And of course, there were a lot less titles available in fansub form. Nowadays, people is able to get almost anything that is on Japan right now within a week (or less) after it aired in Japan, and can get the episode less than a day after the fansub is out.
I can relate to what Gen said of the viewing rooms. On AnimeExpo 2003, I didn't go to any viewing room, which is a huge constract to the amount of time I spend watching (tape) fansubs on AnimeExpo 1999 and Otakon 2000. Either the title was subtitled, it didn't interest or *surprise*, I had already seen the first two episodes of it. The advantage was that I was able to spend time on other things, but the fact is that there is not much reason to go to the rooms anymore. Something that did amaze me was the amount of people carrying laptops around with CDs and CDs of fansubs, some of them watching licensed stuff (I carried some CDs myself as well, but spend all of my laptop time playing Eternal Fighter Zero - for some reason I felt bad about playing those CDs inside the con).
IMO, this has created a generation of selfish anime "fans" who call themselves fans just because they can get their anime fast and cheap. Worse, they actually whine when an episode is not out before a week after the original episode aired, or actually whine about having to wait in a queue to get the file. Wonder how many of those persons have actually bought the licensed DVDs of those shows the have leeched, or if they actually allocate a percentage of their income in supporting the industry.
I can bet that less than 20% of these persons would be anime fans if digisubs did not exist. Before, I used to see someone getting a fansub as a sign of fandom because the process was actually painful and cumbersome (despite being cheaper than going to the store), but now... what can I say? It's almost the opposite.
In the end, however, I don't think fansubs are at fault. Fansubs have a purpose, but people is misusing them.
I remember back in the day when anime was ridiculously overpriced ($15 for 20 minute OMG tapes) and usually had very poor production value. I think that digisubbing had a at least some impact on getting anime more mainstream and thus easier to obtain.
Personally I think that the publishers should make their product more desirable so people would have an insentive (other than a moral one) to buy it. For example they could translate director's comentary, give promotional good, behind the scenes info, etc that digisubbers wouldn't be able to provide.
What's really scummy though are stores that rip digisubs to dvds and sell them. Making money of the hard work of others is reprehensible.
[this message was edited by Radish on Mon 24 Nov 18:08] |
| VManOfMana 264th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(9):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Mon 24 Nov 18:26
Correction: when I said "subtitled" in the AX03 viewing room experience, I meant to say "dubbed". I loathe dubs, especially the American ones.
Now, as of the price of R1 anime DVDs, I am not sure if complaining about the episodes/dollar ration is a good idea. Anime in the US is still a niche market, and they have to make up quantity with price, even though prices have actually gone lower.
And even at that, R1 DVDs are still way cheaper than R2 DVDs, which is what I actually get (saying why would lead to a long rant which is a little out of topic here). Think about how getting R2 DVDs can cost as much as $60 for 3 episodes (or $60 for ONE episode depending on the LE box), and then think about what you are paying right now.
But oh yeah, those Love Hina and Saikano R2 were very worth it ^___^ Now if I could find Love Hina Process 3 box without having to buy the full DVD collection...
Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
|
| DarkZero 498th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(8):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Mon 24 Nov 18:26
Does anyone else think it's just hilarious that all of these people are complaining about selfish, spoiled anime fans getting anime for free "a week after it aired in Japan"... when it just aired in Japan, FOR FREE, one week earlier, and those selfish, spoiled, freeloading Japanese fans actually had the gaul to "leech" it off their local broadcast channel? Or worse, *gasp*, taping it and then skipping the commercials? Or, just to show off how fast and easy they can skip commercials to all of their l33t J4p4n3s3 friends, they actually watch the show as it airs and then go to the bathroom during the commercials?
Years of $30 tapes with two episodes on them (I'm not talking about now, I'm talking about when a lot of us started watching anime) have convinced a generation of English-speaking anime fans that anime is something so special that to watch it for free just like Japanese people do is some sort of heinous sacrilege... unless you're Japanese, I guess. Please, get over it. They're watching TV shows for free and then buying the DVDs if they want to, just like all of us do with American shows. The fact that the shows aren't made in your own country doesn't make the situation any ethically different from, say, watching Justice League on Cartoon Network and not immediately running out to buy the DVDs the day they come out. It's the same thing.
Granted, it's a breach of copyright law, but it's also a breach of copyright law when you guys post anything to the image board, when you use most of your avatars, when you post translations of Japanese game articles, and basically whenever any human being dares to cough without permission from Cough, Inc. and its parent company, Bodily Functions Unlimited, L.L.C. Speaking of that, did they license "the sound of two astronauts getting it on in zero gravity" yet? I hear they've been after that one for a long time.
|
| Amakusa 367th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(9):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Mon 24 Nov 19:43
quote:
Please, get over it. They're watching TV shows for free and then buying the DVDs if they want to, just like all of us do with American shows. The fact that the shows aren't made in your own country doesn't make the situation any ethically different from, say, watching Justice League on Cartoon Network and not immediately running out to buy the DVDs the day they come out. It's the same thing.
You're trying to justify it, but it doesn't work that way.
The one thing you completely neglected to mention was that, when these shows are broadcast in Japan, they're meant for the audience they're broadcasting for-- Japanese viewers.
You're not one of them. Cold hard truth.
What it boils down to is you're saying "they're getting it free, so I should too." You feel OBLIGATED to have it for free for that reason.
Just because Joe over there got into Disneyland for free, doesn't mean YOU should, too.
Get over it. You're not obligated to anything until after you've earned it. And having a computer, high-speed Internet connection, a very large HDD, and paying for your electric bill DOES NOT mean you've earned the right to have it.
P.S. Cartoon Network is not free.
I found Kagami's sword in a junk yard.
I will rule the world and find that truly good cup of coffee.
"Dink-a-dink-a-dink-a-do."
|
| DarkZero 500th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(10):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Mon 24 Nov 20:44
quote:
The one thing you completely neglected to mention was that, when these shows are broadcast in Japan, they're meant for the audience they're broadcasting for-- Japanese viewers.
You're not one of them. Cold hard truth.
As I noted, I'm not seeing where the enormous ethical difference lies between watching an American TV show without the commercials and watching a Japanese TV show without the commercials. "You're not one of them" doesn't really clear that up for me. I can't tell you this with absolute certainty, but I'm pretty sure I already knew that I'm not Japanese before you pointed it out to me. Can't say for sure, though. But I definitely don't see where some ethical dilemma arises from that.
And I seriously doubt that you care about what the broadcasters "meant for" when you watch a TV show. Do you sit obediently through every commercial break, scanning it diligently for new products that might interest you? Or do you go to the bathroom, make a snack, or possibly even talk to the person next to you? Do you think that the broadcasters or their advertisers meant for you to be doing that instead of cleansing yourself of the sinful taint of "leeching" or "pirating" their show by watching the commercials intently?
People watch TV without the commercials. Most people, having owned VCRs for years or at least having something to do in their home other than watch every commercial, do not have a problem with this. So why should anyone suddenly start caring about the rights and intentions of broadcast TV stations because they're from another country? I could see this sort of point being applied to OVAs, or movies, or even pay channels like WoWoW, but broadcast TV? That seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
|
| Undead Fred 1112th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member+
| "Re(3):Re(10):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Tue 25 Nov 03:10
quote:
How about this; TV station pays the animators for the right to play the show on their station in their region. Animators don't get paid when pirate copy is watched.
Okay, I think I'm missing something- is the argument over downloading licensed anime fansubs, or anime that's been subbed that was taped off Japanese TV and hasn't been licensed yet? If it's the second one, then there is no issue. It was aired on TV. Recording ANYTHING from TV is not piracy in the slightest. Like DarkZero was saying, cutting out/ignoring commercials happens all the time, and it's not illegal. Buying a tape and copying it is piracy, seeing a show you like on TV and recording it is not. Animators get paid by the animation studio they work for. Television stations buy the rights to show the show on TV. TV stations get their money from selling air time for commercials. They don't get a thing for commercials captured on tape, and they don't lose anything if those commercials are edited out of a tape. They get their money for commercials that are aired, that's all. Repeat private viewings aren't even tracked. So, taping a show from TV isn't going to make an animator starve. They're getting paid just the same. It's not like downloading MP3's and robbing rich performers of their money (although personally I think it barely does anything to the particular performer, and more to the recording company, but that's a whole different issue). If the show gets licensed and DVD's are sold and people are copying the DVD's and sharing those, then you can argue that people are getting hurt by doing that. But if the show's still on the air, it's fair game. Anyway, who cares if you miss seeing some ads? It's not like we don't wake up with a million advertisements hanging over our faces every day (I can totally see that idea from Futurama happening where they invade your dreams with ads)...
If any of this didn't make sense or was not really related to the real argument, forgive me. It's really late and I need to go to sleep.
THAT'S DANNY. His hometown is New Orleans.
|
| VManOfMana 266th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(4):Re(10):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Tue 25 Nov 03:31:
I just want to have something clear:
I do not have anything against fansubs (heck, if it weren't for them I wouldn't have known of almost all of my favorite series - Saikano and Yamibou being the latest)
I do have a problem against the misuse of fansubs. That is, when fansubs are used as a cheap substitute of licensed DVDs without contributing at all to the industry. Granted, I do not buy all the DVD of all the licensed titles I have a fansub of (I don't buy R1 DVDs at all), but at least I support the industry by spending a bunch of my hard-earned money on R2 DVDs, laserdiscs, artbooks, CDs, and other merchandize.
On the other hand, I know people whose anime collection is 100% fansubs and even try to make profit out of them, and I find that disgusting.
Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Tue 25 Nov 03:34] |
| DarkZero 501th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(2):Re(10):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Tue 25 Nov 09:53
Well, as usual, the fansub thread has grown quickly and furiously. Please excuse my extra long no-holds-barred battle royale post.
Henaki:
quote:
Maybe if you had to give the channel 2 dollars a month, and you couldn't skip commercials, then it wouldn't be considered "free".
Remember, the fact that subs have NO COMMERCIALS inbetween them (and not to mention, we'd probably have trouble purchasing said items, which would make Japanese commercials inneficient in this market). It's pretty much stealing.
By that definition, you're stealing just as much when you tape a show with your VCR and fast forward through the commercials. Have you really never done that? Have you even felt bad about it when you've done it? I certainly haven't. TV channels bring us free content with commercials, but it's generally understood between both parties that it's just an act of polite fiction. If you still intend to use your VCR/DVD-R/TiVo for recording purposes in the future, you might as well download unlicensed TV anime, because the effect is the same.
Gen:
quote:
How about this; TV station pays the animators for the right to play the show on their station in their region. Animators don't get paid when pirate copy is watched.
Animators don't get paid when a Japanese person watches it on TV, either. Unless you have a Nielsen box (or the Japanese equivalent which I'm sure exists), what you watch is not catalogued or counted. So the animators are neither paid when you watch it on TV nor when you watch a pirated copy or even a VHS tape of the show that you've recorded. And if you don't even live in Japan, then you not only can't watch it on TV, but you can't have a Japanese equivalent to a Nielsen box, so no one gains or loses ANYTHING from your viewing of unlicensed anime fansubs.
Undead Fred:
quote:
Okay, I think I'm missing something- is the argument over downloading licensed anime fansubs, or anime that's been subbed that was taped off Japanese TV and hasn't been licensed yet?
I think people use each new fansub thread to dump out whatever is in their head regarding fansubs at the time and as people begin to respond to that, the thread starts to become two or three simultaneous conversations. So technically, it's both. Or neither. I'm still not sure what the topic of my discussion with Amakusa is about, so I'm just sort of following his lead and responding to whatever interesting things he says on a post-by-post basis. I could've sworn we were talking about one thing, but now we're talking about another, and I really don't mind that.
I guess the fansub thread is sort of a "roll with the punches" kind of deal. Everyone takes each other's points and runs in a completely new direction, and the fun of it is chasing them down and continuing the conversation, except on a completely different topic. I hope that made sense, because it's hard to speak sensibly about the absolutely senseless mechanics of the monthly fansub thread.
Iggy:
quote:
This makes me want to ask : what is TiVo?
A TiVo is a new form of video recorder that lets you record TV shows onto a built-in hard drive as MPEG-2 files. While it's certainly a novel idea and has a nice user interface, it's mostly noted for its ability to skip commercials using a "30 Second Skip" button. The fact that that feature is considered both interesting and controversial has mystified me for years now, because I bought a VCR that skips commercials automatically with no button pressing at all roughly two or three years before the first TiVo was released.
They're actually called DVRs (Digital Video Recorders), by the way, but they're usually just called "TiVo", after the first company that released one. Sort of like the way everyone calls gelatin desserts "Jello".
And now, for the main event! Ladies and gentlemen, the steel cage match! Amakusa vs. The Intercontinental Champion of Long-Winded Posts!
quote:
IMO, this has created a generation of selfish anime "fans" who call themselves fans just because they can get their anime fast and cheap. Worse, they actually whine when an episode is not out before a week after the original episode aired, or actually whine about having to wait in a queue to get the file. Wonder how many of those persons have actually bought the licensed DVDs of those shows the have leeched, or if they actually allocate a percentage of their income in supporting the industry.
NO ONE gives a crap about people taping shows on their VCR except you.
So, wait a second. Your concern is that digital fansubs have... turned anime fans into self-centered selfish jackasses? Come on, now. That's like a wolf being bitten by a werewolf. Or a blue car getting blue paint splashed onto it. There's just no way that you could possibly transform a fandom full of self-centered jackasses into a fandom full of self-centered jackasses.
Six or seven years ago, back in the "good old days" of VHS fansubs that so many of you seem to be pining for, the ratio of morons to reasonable people in anime fandom was as bad, if not worse, than it is today. It was filled with people that had stacks of fansubs, pirated VHS tapes, pirated laserdiscs, and yes, even pirated CDs and MP3 soundtracks. Worse, because anime was so obscure, you had to put up with their attitudes. They had never watched anything that wasn't made by Hollywood or Toronto before and were convinced that Slayers was Le Foreign Cinema and that a night of elves raping each other was time spent in the wrappings of culture and refinement, like a ballet or an opera... where elves rape each other.
We may have moved away from arguments that basically boiled down to "I'm better than you because I'm watching anime that was only made TWO YEARS AGO and you're still watching Record of Lodoss War" and "Ha! You only have EIGHTY laserdiscs? I feel so sorry for poverty-stricken hobos like you" to kids showing off their laptops full of digital fansubs, but the ratio is still the same. There's a small number of anime fans that are ignorant, whiny jackasses, but the majority are no different than the people on this board. They occasionally make new threads about "OMG, I can't believe what they just did in SutePri 14 (random number). What do you think happens next week?!" and warn each other about new Digi Charat Nyo eps on the image board, but they mostly keep their fansub habit to themselves and don't complain about inconsistent releases.
In short, the past was nowhere near as good as you remember and the present is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be. A few loud fools make things look worse than they are, but they're really the minority. They just look more numerous than they are because they speak and act so loudly, like a little cat forcing its back up and hissing at a dog.
|
| Undead Fred 1114th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member+
| "Re(3):Re(10):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Tue 25 Nov 14:30
quote:
Undead Fred:
I think people use each new fansub thread to dump out whatever is in their head regarding fansubs at the time and as people begin to respond to that, the thread starts to become two or three simultaneous conversations. So technically, it's both. Or neither. I'm still not sure what the topic of my discussion with Amakusa is about, so I'm just sort of following his lead and responding to whatever interesting things he says on a post-by-post basis. I could've sworn we were talking about one thing, but now we're talking about another, and I really don't mind that.
I guess the fansub thread is sort of a "roll with the punches" kind of deal. Everyone takes each other's points and runs in a completely new direction, and the fun of it is chasing them down and continuing the conversation, except on a completely different topic. I hope that made sense, because it's hard to speak sensibly about the absolutely senseless mechanics of the monthly fansub thread.
Yeah, I kind of figured. I was actually expecting to see a flame war by the time I came back here to check the responses on this thread because of the way Amakusa reacted to something someone said ("NO ONE gives a crap about this except YOU blarg blarg blarg" or something along those lines).
THAT'S DANNY. His hometown is New Orleans.
|
| Bootation 314th Post
Bronze Customer
|  "Re(4):Re(10):Anime outlook for Adultswim"
, posted Tue 25 Nov 15:08
quote:
Undead Fred:
I think people use each new fansub thread to dump out whatever is in their head regarding fansubs at the time and as people begin to respond to that, the thread starts to become two or three simultaneous conversations. So technically, it's both. Or neither. I'm still not sure what the topic of my discussion with Amakusa is about, so I'm just sort of following his lead and responding to whatever interesting things he says on a post-by-post basis. I could've sworn we were talking about one thing, but now we're talking about another, and I really don't mind that.
I guess the fansub thread is sort of a "roll with the punches" kind of deal. Everyone takes each other's points and runs in a completely new direction, and the fun of it is chasing them down and continuing the conversation, except on a completely different topic. I hope that made sense, because it's hard to speak sensibly about the absolutely senseless mechanics of the monthly fansub thread.
Yeah, I kind of figured. I was actually expecting to see a flame war by the time I came back here to check the responses on this thread because of the way Amakusa reacted to something someone said ("NO ONE gives a crap about this except YOU blarg blarg blarg" or something along those lines).
Fansub are usually of way way higher quality than the commercial watered down stuff they release in the us. They should just leave in the Japanese commercials tho. Those are pretty interesting and really if they left those in then i mean its almost like watching tv.
My Webpage Dude
|
| Gen 2277th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Re(10):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Tue 25 Nov 16:13:
quote
How about this; TV station pays the animators for the right to play the show on their station in their region. Animators don't get paid when pirate copy is watched.
Animators don't get paid when a Japanese person watches it on TV, either. Unless you have a Nielsen box (or the Japanese equivalent which I'm sure exists), what you watch is not catalogued or counted. So the animators are neither paid when you watch it on TV nor when you watch a pirated copy or even a VHS tape of the show that you've recorded. And if you don't even live in Japan, then you not only can't watch it on TV, but you can't have a Japanese equivalent to a Nielsen box, so no one gains or loses ANYTHING from your viewing of unlicensed anime fansubs.
Tradionally a corporation that runs the TV stations pays the animation studio for the episodes. For example Fox pays production costs for episodes of Futurama. Cartoon network and some other station pay for the rights to re run Futurama, which gives additional income to the owners.
I wasn't talking about individual tv viewers putting money into a slot in their TVs. However, I think you all know this already, Nielson ratings are a simi-scientific sample that represents what everyone the country is watching, and they are then used to set advertising rates. TV stations only profit from advertising. Advertisers are betting that the ads will increase their sales and that's how they can profit and pay TV companies. Then the TV company, given that expected income they can justify paying for more episodes of the show. The money can be traced from TV airings to individual animators pockets.
For a show like Futurama, a company like Fox can also profit from home video sales. Rumor has it that home video sales may lead to a new production of Family gut.
If someone tapes a show off TV and sends a copy to their friend in another country, I kind of don't care that much, especially given that the owner companies themselves don't seem to care about stuff like that. If someone's pirating thousands of coppies or selling for profit pirate copies that's where I'd start to care.
edit:
quote:
Six or seven years ago, back in the "good old days" of VHS fansubs that so many of you seem to be pining for, the ratio of morons to reasonable people in anime fandom was as bad, if not worse, than it is today. It was filled with people that had stacks of fansubs, pirated VHS tapes, pirated laserdiscs, and yes, even pirated CDs and MP3 soundtracks. Worse, because anime was so obscure, you had to put up with their attitudes. They had never watched anything that wasn't made by Hollywood or Toronto before and were convinced that Slayers was Le Foreign Cinema and that a night of elves raping each other was time spent in the wrappings of culture and refinement, like a ballet or an opera... where elves rape each other.
Eh? No! People I knew who'd have a large collection 7 years ago (or farther) or had a vhs fan sub weren't like that. Some of them were say a bit socially querky but they weren't like thinking elf porn anime was saucy French high culture and they're attitudes weren't assholey. There was a time when it was true that the niche of anime fans were on average notably smarter than the average population. (If the average is still higher now it's only by a hair.) Several animes were thought of higher art than typical domestic stuff by lots of fans, which was basically correct. I never heard problemic sas (like denigrating people who hadn't seen anime for example) from them about it though. By now there's definately more morons, the internet gives them more access to anime and to other people.
Meeting a rare other fan outside of a con was an interesting experiance. (In a con too.) At least the ones I had met at that time.
A few years later came instead the kid with a knock off dragon ball t-shirt he picked up at a skate shop, acting like he discovered anime for Spain when there was actual "Columbuses" who had watched black and white Astroboy decades ago, not just the fans but perhapse even those TV executives who decided to play it overseas could be called that... There came more shows, Speed Racer; There were people who had been having anime mini-cons inside sci-fi conventions for years and years before there were specific conventions; Sub/dub companies emerged; Anime cons were so much fun; VHS, Beta, Laserdisc, DVD... Then a Bizkiteer sees dragon ball and insults you. OK sorry end rant now.
[this message was edited by Gen on Wed 26 Nov 02:24] |
| Undead Fred 1118th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member+
| "Re(6):Re(10):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Wed 26 Nov 00:22
quote:
Bottom line is, you're not Japanese, there is nothing short of a miracle that will TURN you Japanese, so do your goddamned part and pay for it.
Dude, if it's unlicensed, how in the hell can you pay for it unless you move to Japan to buy candy and soft drinks or whatever? If it's not on VHS or DVD or anything for sale yet, how are you gonna "do your part and pay for it" if there's no way to buy it? Yes, you're doing something bad if you're watching pirated copies of buyable anime, but if it's subbed from something FROM TV, there is no issue. If you're talking about licensed stuff, I agree. But I thought DarkZero was talking about unlicensed anime. In the case of unlicensed anime, there is no issue. There's nothing wrong with downloading it. I mean, subbing groups remove anime from their DL lists if it gets licensed (well, most do... I'm sure there are some that still offer them anyway...).
THAT'S DANNY. His hometown is New Orleans.
|
| VManOfMana 269th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(7):Re(10):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Wed 26 Nov 12:21:
Yes, when it comes to unlicensed anime there is not much of a problem legally speaking since companies tolerate fansubs. My main problem is how people handle things.
On the tape era, AFAIK there were not much cases where people would harrass the subber to relese more episdes of the title. Now, it is very common to see people whining on forums about the latest episode not being out yet or complaining about some episode taking too much to download. IMO, the main difference is how fansubs are being seen. My impression is that in the tape era fansubs were seen as a luxury you had to work for despite being "free" (let's face it, they weren't with about $7 a tape) and people was actually patient at getting them. Now it seems to me that the "selfish generation" I mentioned before take fansubs for granted, and think that they have the right to complaint when they don't have the next episode ASAP, as if the subber or distro had the responsibility to make it available within 24 hours and have it in an efficient distribution system.
Also, I have seen a change of attitude towards the life of fansubs after the title is licensed. All of the people I know of the tape fansub era also buy the licensed DVDs even after getting a fansub, while keeping a fansub for archival purposes if not getting rid of the fansub. Now, most of the poeple I know or have seen have an attitude of "why buy when I can download for free?" or "why buy why when I have already downloaded and watched for free?". Heck, there is people who consider themselves "l337" because they don't have to pay for their anime.
Now, on DarkZero's argument that Japanese people can watch it on TV for free, there is a main difference. If you are in Japan and want to have the series without buying the DVD, you would have to program your VCR and tape all of the episodes. Sounds pretty easy for a single series, but now imagine doing it for every single series that is available on fansub. The main problem of DarkZero's argument is that in the case of fansubs, the hard work (all the taping, encoding and translating) is not done by you. And for what I remember taping a show is legal as long as you keep it for yourself, and that is not the case of fansubs.
I think fansubs are good when they are used for their original purpose. Get to know what's new out there so you can see what to buy (when it gets licensed). Most of the merchandize and DVDs I got are related to series I first knew of with fansubs, with Rayearth, Sailor Moon and Saint Seiya being the main exceptions, as I first saw them in Mexican TV. The series I have spend the most on (Love Hina and Saikano) were introduced to me via fansubs. A lot of people nowadays, however, use fansubs as their sole source of anime, and sometimes go further than that, by leeching scanned versions of full artbooks and manga (but those go to another topic) or downloading full soundtrack CDs, meaning that their merchanidze collection is also based on piracy. People is getting used to just go and leech stuff they want.
It's easy to like something that is taken for granted.
Of course the way I see things have to do a lot with my personal experience. I moved to the US in 1997 and got into anime 1998, which was the beginning of the end of tape fansubs, and fortunately, I didn't get to know retards of the tape era.
Edit: added stuff to some paragraphs.
Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Wed 26 Nov 14:43] |
| Gojira 1211th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(8):Re(10):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Wed 26 Nov 13:19:
quote:
Dude, if it's unlicensed, how in the hell can you pay for it unless you move to Japan to buy candy and soft drinks or whatever? If it's not on VHS or DVD or anything for sale yet, how are you gonna "do your part and pay for it" if there's no way to buy it? Yes, you're doing something bad if you're watching pirated copies of buyable anime, but if it's subbed from something FROM TV, there is no issue. If you're talking about licensed stuff, I agree. But I thought DarkZero was talking about unlicensed anime. In the case of unlicensed anime, there is no issue. There's nothing wrong with downloading it. I mean, subbing groups remove anime from their DL lists if it gets licensed (well, most do... I'm sure there are some that still offer them anyway...).
That's just it. If it's unlicensed, you CAN'T pay for it. So obviously you seem to think that means you should get it for free, which is the problem. If I ask you "hey, how much for your TV" and you say "I'm not selling it right now but might in the future" then by this logic I can just steal it. Doesn't make it right.
It doesn't matter if you watch the commercials or skip them. If you're out of the demographic, aka "Living in Japan" you have no good effect on the industry through what you're doing. You're only hurting it by watching some unlicensed anime now for nothing and then when it finally comes out later you won't bother to buy it, watch it, whatever. You're punishing companies in the future for being busy with hundreds of other works now, which you're NOT watching or buying because you're too busy downloading stuff you can't possibly buy. Moreover, if enough people do what you do it won't help the title to get licensed for anyone who ISN'T downloading fansubs. That's the main problem.
Sure, there are some who buy it anyway... the smart ones, the collectors. But it's become increasingly harder to convince most normal fans to buy something they've already seen. That's where we are now, and I don't see a solution happening, just lots of rampant selfishness.
EDIT: spelling
[this message was edited by Gojira on Wed 26 Nov 13:22] |
| Radish 1923th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(9):Re(10):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Wed 26 Nov 14:33
quote:
That's just it. If it's unlicensed, you CAN'T pay for it. So obviously you seem to think that means you should get it for free, which is the problem. If I ask you "hey, how much for your TV" and you say "I'm not selling it right now but might in the future" then by this logic I can just steal it. Doesn't make it right.
It doesn't matter if you watch the commercials or skip them. If you're out of the demographic, aka "Living in Japan" you have no good effect on the industry through what you're doing. You're only hurting it by watching some unlicensed anime now for nothing and then when it finally comes out later you won't bother to buy it, watch it, whatever. You're punishing companies in the future for being busy with hundreds of other works now, which you're NOT watching or buying because you're too busy downloading stuff you can't possibly buy. Moreover, if enough people do what you do it won't help the title to get licensed for anyone who ISN'T downloading fansubs. That's the main problem.
Sure, there are some who buy it anyway... the smart ones, the collectors. But it's become increasingly harder to convince most normal fans to buy something they've already seen. That's where we are now, and I don't see a solution happening, just lots of rampant selfishness.
EDIT: spelling
I can go to Suncoast and see tons of DVDs for tv shows that get broadcast in this country and yet those seem to sell even though people saw them before. Your point doesn't really make sense since the people who buy DVDs are the ones who will buy the show regardless if they've seen it or not. Also if you want the dub, you have no option but to buy it.
Also what's stopping the people who are going to watch fansubs and not buy the licensed product from waiting until the DVD release, then downloading the ripped DVD off a irc chatroom if fansubs weren't available?
Just because we're "out of the target demographic", watching fansubs when there is no current alternative doesn't help the animation companies, but I can't see how it hurts them unless they are abused, which no one in this thread is supporting.
Also the "I'll steal your tv" analogy doesn't work since the animation company doesn't loose anything if you watch a fansub. If everyone goes out and watches fansubs instead of buying the shows upon release, then they don't GAIN money that they deserve, but they don't lose anything physical like a store would if they were robbed.
|
| crazymax 311th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(8):Anime outlook for Adultswim" , posted Wed 26 Nov 16:05
quote:
I only download unlicensed anime. Know why? Usually because no one is gonna liscense it, when they do, I generally stop watching it through fansub (I might finish a saga to at least make sure I'm not waiting for years to see the end of it).
Again, they haven't liscensed the One Piece anime or Naruto, which are the only two anime I watch through fansub.
Also, I wish they put around 5-6 episodes of anime on a DVD, so it's at least worth buying. I hate seeing 2-3 episodes on 1 DVD. 10-15 dollars an episode is completely outrageous, it's about as bad as charging 18 dollars for 3 good songs, and 7-15 crap songs.
As an old old school anime fan ( going to NY and going to one of those hole in the wall Japanese Video rental stores that sold the previous month's television, thus no subs ), I was a fan of fansubs on vhs. Merely for the reason that intial companies tended to bring over the most basic or stupid stuff. When we fans would ask for the Fatal Fury movies to get brought over, I remember one companies rep looking at us like morons. "Why would anyone want to see a video based on a videogame?" Yeah who would?
Originally you could only see Ninja Scroll aka Wind Ninja Chronicles on fansub. Nowadays though, so many companies seek to bring out stuff so fast, in so many varieties, that that aspect of fansubbing is no longer necessary. If something is coming out here, I am all for getting it. If no one is listening to me, I'll get a fansub. I think it's a fair trade off. The people now who d-load anime nowadays, seem more like geek fanboys who wear their collection like some badge of honor. You can't have too much love for that sort.
But I think the real issue with the Adultswim's choices is not whether or not they make exotic anime picks. But whether or not they are choices made more to help dvd sales. With the exception of Wolf's Rain ( I hadn't heard of it coming to the states yet, perhaps it is ), the others are US bound, and will help spark interest in their dvd sales. I sometimes wonder if that helps them get their cartoons, if the company that holds the rights, specifically wants the 'free' advertisment.
|
|
|
"Re(5):Anime outlook for Adultswim" 
