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| Fygee 873th Post
 
Red Carpet Regular Member++
    
    
    
|  "FF 11 = Crap?"
, posted Tue 11 Nov 00:55
It really pains me to say this, but FF11 has been a huge disappointment for me so far.
The graphics are fantastic, the setting and visual style are great, I love the job system, I love having my own house with its personal moogle, I love how they've put a lot of content in the game, and I love how its almost 100% bug free.
Unfortunately, all that means jack because the gameplay is horribly boring and bland, and the general speed/pace of the game is SLOW.
Combat basically consists of two things. Either your physically attacking your enemy and hoping for the best once the battle ends 30 sec-2 minutes later (or longer), or casting the same spells on your enemy or party members ad nauseum. There's no real strategy involved that I can see, aside from choosing the right monster to fight so you don't die. Everything just feels far too automated and out of your control.
Also, your characters basically have the runspeed of any character in a Resident Evil game (i.e. they crawl), and the exp gain is awful. Sure, you gain levels fairly fast from 1-6, but after that it takes at least a solid day's gameplay to get another level up to 10. From there its two days for a level, and so on. Not even EQ was THAT bad.
Considering that this game has been around roughly a year and a half, I don't see any major changes to the above happening, so it would appear I just blew $50.
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| Magus Darkstar
173th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(1):FF 11 = Crap?" , posted Tue 11 Nov 01:00
quote:
It really pains me to say this, but FF11 has been a huge disappointment for me so far.
The graphics are fantastic, the setting and visual style are great, I love the job system, I love having my own house with its personal moogle, I love how they've put a lot of content in the game, and I love how its almost 100% bug free.
Unfortunately, all that means jack because the gameplay is horribly boring and bland, and the general speed/pace of the game is SLOW.
Combat basically consists of two things. Either your physically attacking your enemy and hoping for the best once the battle ends 30 sec-2 minutes later (or longer), or casting the same spells on your enemy or party members ad nauseum. There's no real strategy involved that I can see, aside from choosing the right monster to fight so you don't die. Everything just feels far too automated and out of your control.
Also, your characters basically have the runspeed of any character in a Resident Evil game (i.e. they crawl), and the exp gain is awful. Sure, you gain levels fairly fast from 1-6, but after that it takes at least a solid day's gameplay to get another level up to 10. From there its two days for a level, and so on. Not even EQ was THAT bad.
Considering that this game has been around roughly a year and a half, I don't see any major changes to the above happening, so it would appear I just blew $50.
I'm enjoying it. I'll agree with pretty much everything you said though, the level gain is extremely tedious after a point. Of course, by then, joining partys to fight high level monsters becomes necessary for a faster level gain.
Personally, one of the aspects of the game I love are the entertainment my Linkshell provides me. The constant chatter makes treks through the enemies more bareable.
But if you aren't enjoying yourself by now, I don't know what to tell you but the game just isn't for you.
|Darkstar Okonomiyaki| Now featuring Japanese TV show distrobution! Utaban Music Station Dramas get them here!
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| Fygee 874th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(3):FF 11 = Crap?" , posted Tue 11 Nov 05:11
quote:
i haven't played it.(really want to) But from wat i hear, once it gets hard to lvl, u can't do without a party. And as for combat, isn't every mmorpg like that? sry haven't played EQ...2 minutes a battle...now that would be shit.
Well, not every MMORPG is like that. A prime example would be Neocron, which borrows heavily from Deux Ex when it comes to combat. Unfortunately, that wouldn't work with this game though. ;)
I just wish they could add more to do during combat. Add more lower level weapon skills which are effective for different situations, add regional damage to add more strategy, or just speed everything up a bit so combat doesn't take as long.
I'm probably going to stick with it a bit longer to see if things improve, so hopefully they will.
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| DarkZero 461th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(4):FF 11 = Crap?" , posted Tue 11 Nov 06:14
quote:
I just wish they could add more to do during combat. Add more lower level weapon skills which are effective for different situations, add regional damage to add more strategy, or just speed everything up a bit so combat doesn't take as long.
I'm probably going to stick with it a bit longer to see if things improve, so hopefully they will.
You may want to wade through the guides over at GameFAQs for awhile to see if there's anything you're missing, or at least something that would interest you more. So far, a lot of the more interesting stuff that's been described there has been pretty obscure, like thief/warrior combos involving Sneak Attack and such that sound like they switch the Hate around so much that the monster would just spin around like a top for the entire battle. You might also want to wait it out until you get an advanced class, because certain classes, such as the Lancer, sound like they have a lot more to keep track of during battles.
And you did stop soloing entirely after level 10, right?
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| TiamatRoar 547th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(1):FF 11 = Crap?" , posted Tue 11 Nov 10:51
quote:
It really pains me to say this, but FF11 has been a huge disappointment for me so far.
The graphics are fantastic, the setting and visual style are great, I love the job system, I love having my own house with its personal moogle, I love how they've put a lot of content in the game, and I love how its almost 100% bug free.
Unfortunately, all that means jack because the gameplay is horribly boring and bland, and the general speed/pace of the game is SLOW.
Combat basically consists of two things. Either your physically attacking your enemy and hoping for the best once the battle ends 30 sec-2 minutes later (or longer), or casting the same spells on your enemy or party members ad nauseum. There's no real strategy involved that I can see, aside from choosing the right monster to fight so you don't die. Everything just feels far too automated and out of your control.
Also, your characters basically have the runspeed of any character in a Resident Evil game (i.e. they crawl), and the exp gain is awful. Sure, you gain levels fairly fast from 1-6, but after that it takes at least a solid day's gameplay to get another level up to 10. From there its two days for a level, and so on. Not even EQ was THAT bad.
Considering that this game has been around roughly a year and a half, I don't see any major changes to the above happening, so it would appear I just blew $50.
Wow, that sounds nearly exactly like descriptions of Everquest that I heard back then to me. ...as well as a lot of other MMORPGs, come to think of it.
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
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| DarkZero 464th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(5):Do all MMORPGs just suck?" , posted Tue 11 Nov 22:15
I don't think the problems with MMORPGs really require a massive paradigm shift so much as a gentle tweaking. There are a lot of players out there that really enjoy RPG gameplay and even dungeon hack gameplay, as well as a lot of people that are more interested in crafting and selling items than engaging in combat. The problem is that almost every MMORPG right now has screwed up all of the minor details.
They still start you off as a weakling that fights cute little bunnies and later moves up to monsters and humanoids instead of starting you off as a reasonably well-equipped person that fights monsters and humanoids and then moves up to Godzilla, which is what every single RPG and action game on Earth does. They still cap your running speed to a that of a quadriplegic sloth and require you to buy a chocobo or a pecopeco just to get half the running speed of the average console RPG character. They still don't offer you half as many minigames or diversions as any Suikoden or Final Fantasy game, and the few minigames that they do have never let you advance your character or attain larger amounts of money than you would fighting, which every console RPG has learned to do. They still haven't implemented any sort of strategy into the gameplay to keep you from settling into an Attack-Attack-Special Attack-Attack rhythm for hours on end. And they're still keeping the basics away from you. Every Star Wars game lets you start out as a Jedi and eventually become a badass Super Jedi like Obi-Wan or Darth Vader... except Star Wars Galaxies, which forces you to spend months mastering pottery skills, medical skills, weapon smithing, and other assorted weirdness before you can scrap all of it and start a new character who is "force sensitive" (weak-ass Jedi).
Fixing these problems does not require turning MMORPGs into lag-filled pseudo-action games or scrapping the levelling system for something that advances your character in almost the exact same way. These developers just have to get their heads of out of their asses and be ambitious enough to make a world where everyone is fairly capable and eventually levels their way up into being a badass, rather than a world of crippled retards that hope that one day, after two years of tedious dungeon hacking, they can be almost as cool as Cloud was when he reached level 6 approximately 42 minutes into FFVII.
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| TiamatRoar 548th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(6):Do all MMORPGs just suck?" , posted Tue 11 Nov 22:31
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a world of crippled retards that hope that one day, after two years of tedious dungeon hacking, they can be almost as cool as Cloud was when he reached level 6 approximately 42 minutes into FFVII.
*dies laughing*
Funny but true.
On the action note, I think a game like Diablo 1 and 2 have the whole random numbers combined with playing skill also being a factor in dodging attacks thing down right, I think. Problem being that with the current technology, an engine like that can really only support 8 people in a game at a time, and even that can cause extreme lag. So I guess until technology improves, we're doomed to have these battle systems where all you do is point and click all day. But some day, we can have Diablo-ish action where you can build up stats AND do something besides point and click then wait during battle, as well as participate in one hundred and one mini-games from chocobo racing to gambling to card games against other players, meanwhile building and designing and furnishing your own multifloored house complex all in glorious 3D for you to show off to your friends, before you all band together to fight through a dungeoun where a powerful boss monster awaits at the end to give you the fight of your life, followed by merriment and feasting by all as they revel in the spoils of the hunt. ...some day.
I still play Ultima Online, myself. My character there is a tamer. Sure, it might have taken characters three years of levelling to be able to kill a dragon that Cloud could have killed with one hand tied behind his back, but I guess at least my character controls his own dragons since he's an animal tamer. But even that kinda gets boring after a while. Instead of point and click, it's hit your macro for "Dragon of whoopass kill" then point and click (and cast healing spells on your pet. Weeee). Well, at least Ultima Online has the Recall spell that lets you instantly get from town to town and dungeoun to dungeoun, unlike most other MMORPGs where you have to walk across the world at a sloth's pace. Eeeeew. Now if only it weren't doing 101 other things to piss me off.
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
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| Radish 1865th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
  
    
| "Re(6):Do all MMORPGs just suck?" , posted Tue 11 Nov 22:36
quote:
I don't think the problems with MMORPGs really require a massive paradigm shift so much as a gentle tweaking. There are a lot of players out there that really enjoy RPG gameplay and even dungeon hack gameplay, as well as a lot of people that are more interested in crafting and selling items than engaging in combat. The problem is that almost every MMORPG right now has screwed up all of the minor details.
They still start you off as a weakling that fights cute little bunnies and later moves up to monsters and humanoids instead of starting you off as a reasonably well-equipped person that fights monsters and humanoids and then moves up to Godzilla, which is what every single RPG and action game on Earth does. They still cap your running speed to a that of a quadriplegic sloth and require you to buy a chocobo or a pecopeco just to get half the running speed of the average console RPG character. They still don't offer you half as many minigames or diversions as any Suikoden or Final Fantasy game, and the few minigames that they do have never let you advance your character or attain larger amounts of money than you would fighting, which every console RPG has learned to do. They still haven't implemented any sort of strategy into the gameplay to keep you from settling into an Attack-Attack-Special Attack-Attack rhythm for hours on end. And they're still keeping the basics away from you. Every Star Wars game lets you start out as a Jedi and eventually become a badass Super Jedi like Obi-Wan or Darth Vader... except Star Wars Galaxies, which forces you to spend months mastering pottery skills, medical skills, weapon smithing, and other assorted weirdness before you can scrap all of it and start a new character who is "force sensitive" (weak-ass Jedi).
Fixing these problems does not require turning MMORPGs into lag-filled pseudo-action games or scrapping the levelling system for something that advances your character in almost the exact same way. These developers just have to get their heads of out of their asses and be ambitious enough to make a world where everyone is fairly capable and eventually levels their way up into being a badass, rather than a world of crippled retards that hope that one day, after two years of tedious dungeon hacking, they can be almost as cool as Cloud was when he reached level 6 approximately 42 minutes into FFVII.
There's lots of strategy to FFXI if you're willing to learn it. Most of the current US players haven't had time to learn how to play yet and end up in terrible parties while people who do yokodama, skillchains, mana bursts, hold back on offensive spells, etc can rip through enemies.
Also less minigames is ALWAYS a good thing. With a few exceptions like the snowboarding in FFVII or the card game in Sakura Taisen 2, minigames are tiresome and not fun. FFX had to be the worst offender in this case.
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| DarkZero 465th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(7):Do all MMORPGs just suck?" , posted Wed 12 Nov 00:15
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There's lots of strategy to FFXI if you're willing to learn it. Most of the current US players haven't had time to learn how to play yet and end up in terrible parties while people who do yokodama, skillchains, mana bursts, hold back on offensive spells, etc can rip through enemies.
I actually mentioned that (or at least alluded to it) in my original post in this thread, but I should've mentioned it again in my second post. It sounded like I was bashing FFXI with ALL of those complaints and I really didn't mean that. I'm told that there is a lot of strategy involved in FFXI within parties and that you actually level fairly well when you're in a party full of good (read: skilled, not high level) players. I'm not sure to what extent all of these claims are true due to the fact that all MMORPGs seem to get either a "this sucks" or a "these designers make Einstein look like a dumbass" reaction during its first few months of play, but so far it seems like there's some merit to it.
quote:
Also less minigames is ALWAYS a good thing. With a few exceptions like the snowboarding in FFVII or the card game in Sakura Taisen 2, minigames are tiresome and not fun. FFX had to be the worst offender in this case.
Again, I should've been more specific, because the minigames thing didn't come out the way I meant it to. I didn't mean the mainstream sort of minigames that you see in RPGs, like FFVII snowboarding, Breath of Fire III rope-tugging, or -- and I shudder to even mention this travesty -- the feat of jackassery that Square calls a "Gummi Ship".
I meant minigames more along the lines of the collectible card game in FFVIII, the Chocobo breeding/racing in FFVII, the various card games in Suikoden III, or maybe, if it's actually possible, a version of Blitzball that works. They're usually not that much fun in RPGs because you don't get as much for them as you would for going out and fighting rare monsters in some ultra-tough portion of the world map, but in MMORPGs I think they would be a fun diversion for the type of player that prefers to sit around selling items instead levelling. If they could provide a few rare items and more gold in an hour or two than fighting monsters does in the same amount of time, I think they could be a fun diversion for when you and your friends are just plain sick of "the grind". Most minigames bore me to death, but there have certainly been some gems out there, and they're usually the ones that are the easiest to program and the least graphically intensive, which should make them an easy fit for an MMORPG.
Or hey, maybe I'm alone on that one. I dunno.
JJJ:
quote:
an MMORPG will never be able to create the same environment a console RPG provides. not everyone will play the game for the sake of a story or for the sake of the roleplaying game experience. we live in a power-hungry world. for most people, getting to level x is more important than living the adventure of a lifetime
MAybe if there was an MMORPG that let me live the adventure of a lifetime, I'd be less concerned with getting to level X. So far, not many have done that.
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| Amakusa 356th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(8):Do all MMORPGs just suck?" , posted Wed 12 Nov 19:21
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MAybe if there was an MMORPG that let me live the adventure of a lifetime, I'd be less concerned with getting to level X. So far, not many have done that.
Sad to say, but that's kind of the way I feel about Diablo II. It's like "hey, let's kill Duriel" or "hey, I killed Duriel already, let's help some other people kill Duriel."
When I played Ragnarok Online, I swear most of the time I was going around like "man, I need to get another level so I can max out Heal." And that's where it struck me where the difference is.
Mind, I think both games are/were fun, but the approach to that 'fun' factor is pretty different. As much as I know people hate comparing MMORPGs to Diablo II. Perhaps it's the differences between the two that MAKE the difference. I mean, everyone knows that MMORPGs require monthly fees to keep going, but that also signals a committment of time and money. That's the kind of thing that hangs over your head for as long as you play the game. And then you go to Diablo II, once you bought it, you don't have to commit time OR money to it. You can let it rot in hell for all you care, and still come back to it a year later and keep playing.
In a sense, it may be the psychological aspect above that might make a difference to people. The time committment to playing through a MMORPG is immense due to the nature of the game, that it's almost as if the makers artificially extended the XP scale to make sure everyone sticks around if they want to become god characters, or hell, do something that's actually interesting.
I'm tellin' ya, knocking up snails with a club isn't THAT fun.
I found Kagami's sword in a junk yard.
I will rule the world and find that truly good cup of coffee.
"Dink-a-dink-a-dink-a-do."
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"Re(1):Do all MMORPGs just suck?" 
