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| talbaineric 5520th Post
 
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
     
     
     
     
     
|  "Critics hated it"
, posted Wed 5 Nov 15:08
Man. In a way,this kind of pisses me off. Why the fuck are critics attacking all the good flicks lately?
Matrix Revolutions,however,as TheBeast and B.N.V. politely put it. It wasn't great at all. It sucked. Reloaded kind of was wack and made me left wondering at the end. But this was yawn-fest. Only die-hard Matrix fans will like this. I hope it falls out of the top slot right away. There are better movies coming out or are already out(Love Actually,Brother Bear,Scary Movie 3,Kill Bill,e.t.c.)
Thank God the price this was before the matinee. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth the 9.50 or so.(depending on the theatres prices here).
For those who actually like this movie,sorry. But those,like Beast's and BNV's,are my humble 2 cents. 
TALBAINANDCAMMY.COM! Celebrating 3 years of T&C Fanship.
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| OYashiroForever 600th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Matrix 3: Electric Boogaloo" , posted Thu 6 Nov 00:22:
Haven't completely wrapped my head around it all yet, but I definitely enjoyed it. The end of the movie was as clear as the day is long if you're familiar with eastern myth and religious symbolism. I understand that that's kind of like saying "you don't get it" to defend the series (a mistake most of the virulently pro-Matrix folk tend to make), but there you have it. There was tons of overblown, ham-fisted dialogue, I kinda wanted to see a little more action inside "the Matrix", and I absolutely hate that kid (the white boy, not the little Indian lass), but the Zion fight was intense and I thought the series was wrapped up in a beautifully symbolic way. Critics who whine about the movie having no character or emotion clearly are writing their reviews without watching the movie.
I still prefer the first movie, but the third one certainly has its own charm and I'll be buying the "inevitable" super-duper SE box set on DVD whenever it shows up.
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
Edit: The final sequence has nothing to do with Dragon Ball and everything to do with Superman II ("Kneel before me, son of Jor-el!"). If it had been like Dragon Ball, the one fight would've lasted 8 hours, consisted of the same 4 or 5 sequences of attack animation repeated over and over again, and every single other minor character from the series would've attacked Smith first and been killed. Then, of course, they would play the power-up/fight/power-up/fight game for hours, their hair would get progressively longer, and their muscles would stretch in to ridiculous, inhuman proportions. Oh, and they would have had to tell each other between each sequence of powering up what percentage of their full ability they were using. Then it would be somewhat like Dragon Ball.
End of Spoiler
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
No... I'm not a fan.
End of Spoiler
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
[this message was edited by OYashiroForever on Thu 6 Nov 00:32] |
| Sensenic 889th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(3):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Thu 6 Nov 13:59:
Like everybody here (it seems), I'd liked it more if they had stopped after the first one... but I didn't dislike their final idea, and reaaally hope they don't decide to make more sequels and screw it completely to get more money, that'd probably be... -_-{ugh...
So, Revolutions was more or less as I thought it'd be, guess I can say I liked it. To me it had the same flaws of Reloaded and the same strong points.
The flaw, the big one IMHO, would be this element present in most of the real world scenes and the dialogues in general. All those really felt to me, as Rolling Stone's review stated it (although I don't agree with the rest), "high on its own grandiosity". This feeling I'm being given today that all the movies have to be big, and I mean BIG, also EPIC, DRAMATIC, SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER EVER IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE IMAGINED, etc. all these scenes gave it to me and, naaaw, me no likes. Me prefers the more "intimistic" (did I say it right?) background of the first one, or even all those Matrix fight scenes in the second one, with all its efectism (also too much IMO), are better than those epic battle scenes like in those superproductions back at... 40s-50s was it? with tones of extras and such. We're returning to that, and I don't like it. Of course this's 100% pure personal opinion, not trying to state it as an objective fact.
The good points: The parallelism between quotidian things and computer terminology; for example, the back doors that appear in Reloaded, when the Merovingian programs an "aphrodisiac cake", the little girl's sky, blah, blah, blah....I specially like how they show the programs, as also alive and intelligent beings who have developed their society, parallel to the human's one, in the Matrix and "surroundings". Yeah, I know it's not an original idea, there were Level 13 and other movies before, but I like how they showed them, their acts as normal people trying to do their best to keep living (and how those who are not "useful" anymore run away and hide to survive).
Another thing I liked a lot, from the ending this time: the idea of "peace" they give. That is, from Revolutions on, the machines will continue "living" from those who decide to stay in Matrix, while the free ones will be able to reconstruct their world freely with no fear of being attacked. While I guess for many people the happy ending would have been the humans beating the crap out of the machines and exterminating them, I consider this one better because, as stated above, the machines have proved themselves to be also intelligent therefore living creatures, so they have the right to live.
Hey, don't look at me that way, I like Trigun  . Love and peace forever! All living creatures can live together without fighting ones against the others.
So, can say I liked these 2 sequels for the Matrix, couldn't care less about Zion. Of course, I prefer more the 2nd over this one.
About the plot, one question: I think I overall understand it (atleastmoreorlessorperhapsorwhatever) but there's this one thing I just can't figure out. What the hell did Neo or Smith do.... or better, what the hell did the Oracle have them to do that was different from all the previous times, so Neo could negotiate peace with the machines? According to Smith's last lines, all that fighting has happened with all their previous versions, so... what has been the difference this time so the machines (and the Architect) had to accept Neo's (and the Oracle's) terms? Maybe she let Smith take over too much this time? Hmmm.... just can't figure it out.
PS: And no, I'm not a hardcore Matrix fan either, I have no problem criticising any bad aspect I might find.
quote:
84
What does this mean?
EDIT: Made it (a liiittle) more intelligible. Don't expect miracles, though
Mwahahaha! I'm gonna murder someone...
How do you say "sushi" in Japanese? :D
Victoria Beckham (not confirmed)
[this message was edited by Sensenic on Thu 6 Nov 14:09] |
| Juan 3568th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Thu 6 Nov 14:17
Smith wasnt supposed to become virus like, that never happened before on the Matrix. In the end Smith wanted to destroy everything, machines and humans. So with one common enemy, the machines and humans worked toghether.
Monkey didnt tell you that.
quote:
About the plot, one question: I think I overall understand it (atleastmoreorlessorperhapsorwhatever) but there's this one thing I just can't figure out. What the hell did Neo or Smith do.... or better, what the hell did the Oracle have them to do that was different from all the previous times, so Neo could negotiate peace with the machines? According to Smith's last lines, all that fighting has happened with all their previous versions, so... what has been the difference this time so the machines (and the Architect) had to accept Neo's (and the Oracle's) terms? Maybe she let Smith take over too much this time? Hmmm.... just can't figure it out.
PS: And no, I'm not a hardcore Matrix fan either, I have no problem criticising any bad aspect I might find.
84
What does this mean?
EDIT: Made it (a liiittle) more intelligible. Don't expect miracles, though
I am Viewtiful you scumbag!
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| EddyT
214th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(9):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 02:13:
quote:
Uh-huh. I'd agree. But then my question still stands. What was the difference between this time and the previous ones, so the machines, both the "hardware" and the "software", had to accept peace?
I'm not sure what you mean with the question... especially about "difference between this time and previous ones". Could you rephrase it? Do you mean previous movies?
I think the machines had no choice but to help the humans, due to the fact that Smith was bent on taking over both worlds and destroying everything. Humans, machines and software alike.
I think the machines decided on peace and not war with the humans anymore, due to Neo's courage and his responses to the machines' questions about his true intentions on fighting Smith in the Matrix.
Oh yeah, I thought the movie was okay, but it's like Return of the Jedi for me... the least impressive out of the trilogy. I do have to admit the movie was really suspensful, though.
[this message was edited by EddyT on Fri 7 Nov 02:15] |
| Sensenic 894th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(10):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 05:44:
quote:
I'm not sure what you mean with the question... especially about "difference between this time and previous ones". Could you rephrase it? Do you mean previous movies?
I think the machines had no choice but to help the humans, due to the fact that Smith was bent on taking over both worlds and destroying everything. Humans, machines and software alike.
I think the machines decided on peace and not war with the humans anymore, due to Neo's courage and his responses to the machines' questions about his true intentions on fighting Smith in the Matrix.
Okay, lemme explain it. Sorry in advance if I can't make myself clear...
quote:
From what I understand, after Neo beat Smith at the end of the original Matrix, Smith became an anomaly as well... basically a rogue program that didn't terminate properly due to Neo's interference. That's how he gained the ability to bend the rules of The Matrix.
He was able to manipulate the "self-inflicted wound" guy on the ship by taking over his alter ego in the Matrix world. You know... where he'd stab a person with his hand and they'd be covered with that metallic stuff until they became a clone of him. His new-found freedom from being an Agent (basically being a slave program for the mainframe) also granted Smith the hability to possess other Agents and other rogue programs too. That's why you saw all those Smith clones all over the place during the final showdown with Neo at the end of Revolutions. He took over basically everyone.
Correct me if I happen to be wrong. This is just what I observed after watching the first 2 movies.
Uh-huh. I'd agree. But then my question still stands. What was the difference between this time and the previous ones, so the machines, both the "hardware" and the "software", had to accept peace?
Then I'd start with an "Oooops" because I musnderstood you and I don't agree. I know all you explain, and I thought the same as you and Juan until the very end of the movie, when Smith and Neo "recall"; when they realize it's "unavoidable", in Smith's words.
So, what do I mean when I say the "previous times"? Remember Reloaded? The Architect says that statistically, from time to time, since they first built the Matrix as it is, some anomaly or anomalies (too bad I can't remember if he used plural or singular  ) would appear, jeopardizing the stability of the whole system. What did they (the Architect and the Oracle) do then? Giving this anomaly/these anomalies a big story to be part of. Let the anomaly (the One) build a human Resistance, a Zion, control this resistance and in the end, put the One in front of the Architect showing him the whole truth so he would decide to sacrify Zion and restart again the whole story in order to save the whole mankind. So when I said the "previous times" I referred to the previous loops of this story, the previous "Ones".
So far, it'd seem that the difference that allowed the Oracle and the present One, Neo, to negotiate peace would've been Smith's presence. That's what you said, that's what Juan said, that's what I thought until that final scene. But in that final scene you can see, or better, I "deduced" that this final battle also happened the other times, so there had been a Virus anomaly the other times. Maybe, now that I think of it, it was created each time by and from the original human anomaly (the One), as in The Matrix, but then he'd have become an anomaly (as I call it, the Virus) by himself each time too.
Why do I think that? For various reasons:
- In Reloaded you see that the Oracle can't see the future, she just remembers what the other Ones (and the rest of the rebels) did, and acts consequently. In other words, she's only playing a role, but she plays it very, very good. She knows how to talk to people in order to make them do what she wants and so, but I definitely think she can't do anything like reading the future. So, supposing this, then in Revolutions we see her telling Neo that Smith is himself, clearly (to me) refering to the end of the final battle. She's saying they're both anomalies that will eventually cancel each other. As happened.
- Another one: Smith's fear and Neo's comprehension, as they understand that they're repeating the same story, like the Architect stated to him. Neo thought he'd marked the difference by going through the left door (was it the left one?) but then he comprehends (I guess) he was there to cancel Smith so Matrix can reset and everything returns to normal, as Smith starts to fear that he's gonna lose anyway, that's why he's not convinced of his victory even when he absorbs Neo. No?
- And the final one: the dialog between the Oracle and the Architect, where you can see they both were above all this mess, monitoring and controlling everything so all happened as they prevued. The difference would be that, this time, the Oracle was the one in control of the situation, so the Architect had to give up and allow peace, as the machines in the real world had to give up too.
So, then, my question is: Supposing that the Neo-Smith, or better, One-Virus fight happened all the previous times an anomaly appeared, what did Neo do, or what did the Oracle make Neo or Smith do so Smith would become such a menace to humans and machines? My guess is that she just somehow let him go out of control trusting that Neo would eventually be able to cancel Smith. And viceversa :)
Arf. Arf.
Mwahahaha! I'm gonna murder someone...
How do you say "sushi" in Japanese? :D
Victoria Beckham (not confirmed)
[this message was edited by Sensenic on Fri 7 Nov 05:52] |
| Sensenic 895th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(4):Re(10):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 09:17:
quote:
I think the reason Smith becomes afraid is because he has taken the "powers" of the Oracle and can "see" the future.
(It was established that when Smith takes over someone inside the Matrix he also takes their knowledge and power in the scene where he faces the Oracle)
So, at first he is very confident since he has "seen" that he beats Neo or that Neo dies. But as the fight is about to end, he realises that somehow he is going to die anyway and things will change (...)
Of course, I could be wrong or not making any sense since I'm very very tired.
Hmmmm.... Yeah, sounds good. I agree with you, as long as the "Smith seeing his future" part is metaphorical and it means that he realizes he's exactly following the Oracle's plan (I know, I know, I am stubborn about my own convictions/ideas/youknowwhatImean) that ends up with their deaths.
In this case, then, there could have not been a Smith the previous times, so his presence would have been the difference (as Juan and EddyT said), and the Oracle would've just taken advantage of it to make up her plot and guide Neo to reach peace.
Boy, Ain't I picky? But yeah! Sounds really good!
quote:
those who want to be free will be free and Zion and the machines will have peace.
(...until humans screw up, since apparently you can trust a machine to keep it's side of a deal.)
Thats a very good point. Specially since according to the Animatrix (second reinassance) the humans srtarted this whole mess to begin with.
Couldn't agree more, even when I still haven't seen Animatrix (some of these days, some of these days...). We humans always go around screwing up things... u_u'
quote:
Edit: It was very mean of Smith to throw the cookies on the wall!!!
Let me guess.... you didn't like Smith throwing hte cookies on the wall, did you? 
EDIT: I meant "Could have not", not "Could not have". Damn word order.
Mwahahaha! I'm gonna murder someone...
How do you say "sushi" in Japanese? :D
Victoria Beckham (not confirmed)
[this message was edited by Sensenic on Fri 7 Nov 09:19] |
| NARUTO 1878th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(10):Re(10):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Sat 8 Nov 04:38
I lkied the movie, maybe it got some bad point like a "too much comercial ending" with nothing really explained but the movie was good.
The problem, doesn't come from revolution, it comes from reloaded and revolution, like many of us think.
Many detail like the twin didn't clear death, the usless Merovingian in the revolution, or the gun fight/battle balance in the 1, who slowly disappear...
IMO the movies will never turn like it, here I'll show you some exemple of how I will have make it....
1: the architec bullshit will never be this was I will have made a core to the matrix some kind of seed of overflowing data, to show a drive "hard-drive" saw the problem with a really "Program-like" point of view, not something with "Humanish" thought...
2: the matrix will have create a negative neo to handel him them she must think to smith, thing who will make a 1 vs 1 vs 1 final battle.
3: what happen to human, machine and matrix program will have been showed after smith death.
4: Smith will have evolved in a other way, for exemple after "copy and paste" him an "human being" and program I will try to swallow other data, like water, iron, wind...
5:the Matrix warrior will have the power other changing the matrix at will, for exemple, in a fight a pipe, will turn in a sword, after, a hit and them in a gun...
Of course all of those are only my thought and many of us will have changed some other thing.
I still think IMO that a 4 and 5 sequel can arise the trilogy..
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| GekigangerV 763th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Sat 8 Nov 05:08
As for comparing the final battle to Dragon Ball, if you know your anime beyond that, I'd rather compare the final battle to either X or the video game, Psychic Force which made me think of more. I thought the kung fu sequences in the abondoned building was awesome, too.
This movie kind of turned out different from what I expected but I thought it was pretty good. This triology is not as awesome and bad ass as the other man vs. machine one known as the Terminator series.
The problem was "choice." That was the problems with the other previous versions of the Matrix. The first versions of the Matrix was meant to be a perfect world, but people did not accept it as real and kept on waking up. It was the Oracle who suggested to the Architect to go along with this and re-design the Matrix to suit human civilization. If people were to have more free will, so would the programs that would watch over them such as the Agents. But as you see Agent Smith shows it. It was first demonstrated when he tried to interrogate (sp?) Morpheus in the first movie when you see him freaking out a bit. Then when he was "free" he started going out of control. Supposbly, behavior like his was what led to the re-booting of some of the previous versions of the Matrix.
Since Morpheus seemed to be freed from a previous anamoly, I'm guessing it was not that long ago that the Matrix had to be re-programmed since the anamoly of "the one" is necessary to the machines and the humans in re-starting.
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
Well, it's pretty interesting that Neo could still have powers outside the matrix. As long as the source exists, he'll still have something which is pretty interesting.
End of Spoiler
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| Ikari Loona
28th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(3):OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Sat 8 Nov 22:32
I'm not sure if what happened was:
- by having access to Neo and the whole Matrix world, the Machine Boss (or "Deus Ex Machina"?... I could swear I saw such a character name in the credits...) had now a much firmer grip on Smith once he "possessed" Neo, and thus was able to delete(?) him, maybe sacrificing Neo's life in the process, and returning all other programs to their original state, since apparently the smith clones automatically shared information and powers he adquired from different people (which would explain why he could both fly and have the Oracle's access to a much broader view in time and sapce of events in the Matrix - this assuming the Oracle can't fly, which other beings were surely capable of, considering the creatures we get to see in the 2nd and 3rd movie) - thus, if you "kill" one, the "death factor" gets to be spread around, nullifying Smith's presence in that world.
- Smith was dumb by wrapping hmself around Neo, since he was previously killed when Neo got inside him - the initiative was his this time, but the consequence was the same... he surely glowed and cracked pretty much in the same manner...
The unanswered questions that piss me off:
- how the heck did smith manage to completely possess a real human anyway - once unplugged, bane should have to "software factors" for Smith to cling to and retain his grip on him... unless the Matrix programs' hardware and software is made to somehow replicate a human brain's functioning... which would kinda explain the whole deal with "rogue programs", I guess...
The actor who played Bane did an awesome job of replicating the Smith speech pattern though.. during the movie I wondered if it was actually the same actor with a fake beard and some clever makeup techniques applied to him...
- why the heck did Smith Bane keep cutting himself?... Yes, human bodies are rather fragile, but one cut would be enough to figure that out... maybe that was a part of the destructive tendencies that threatned both the humans and machines?...
- what are the machines going to do with Neo's body?... Could it have something to do with the Architect's plans for him had he crossed the other door in Reloaded?... The "light machine-o-vision" Neo experienced during blindness does make me wonder if he's somehow part machine... that would explain the Architect's command in the 2nd movie about him being "mostly human" or something like that, and having a consisted biological base to work with would explain why all of the previous iterations of the Neo anomaly all looked the same, despite being separated by at least a century...
- what's the whole deal about Seraph's wings, apart from the fact that a seraphim is the highest in the hierarchy of angels?... I find him one of the coolest new characters to have been introduced in Reloaded, and more info on him would be appreciated...
In the end, The Oracle and the Architect probably carry on with their "good cop/bad cop" routine to keep humans under control - he provides the mathematical inflexibility of a planned control system, while she appears to be helping the humans by simply giving them some incomplete information as guidance, which is a lot more than they get from any other program.
I suppose their little conversation about the humans who which to leave is referring to the leniency they've had regarding the Zion folk who unplug humans - "we let them go, as they'd be more of a problem staying here as wildcards than they'd be in Zion, unable to affect our actions".
So maybe the Smith virus happened before too, and the events of the three movies are contantly being repeated with few variations, but it still seems more likely to me that his outbeak was a new factor, as the whole reloaded trajectory towards the Architect's room and the decision in it could have happened without Smith even existing...
"Beat the machine that works in your head!" - Guano Apes "Open Your Eyes"
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| DarkZero 451th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(4):OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Sun 9 Nov 03:27
They mentioned at one point in Revolutions that Smith was an attempt to counterbalance the systemic anomaly in the Matrix. In other words, once Neo killed him for the first time, he was designated as the "Anti-One", a being with equal strength to The One that could keep him from becoming completely uncontrolled. The fight between The One and his counterbalance never occurred in any of the previous generations of the Matrix because Neo's predecessors all chose to take the Architect's offer, allow Zion to be destroyed, and then allow their code to be disseminated (which I read as "dissolved"). Neo's choice in Reloaded to save Trinity instead of saving Zion was what allowed Neo to grow as The One and gain the power to control things outside of the Matrix, as well as what gave Smith enough time to absorb more and more people and gain powers like future sight (The Oracle) and weather control (the little Indian girl).
quote:
- how the heck did smith manage to completely possess a real human anyway - once unplugged, bane should have to "software factors" for Smith to cling to and retain his grip on him... unless the Matrix programs' hardware and software is made to somehow replicate a human brain's functioning... which would kinda explain the whole deal with "rogue programs", I guess...
I'm assuming that if human beings can have helpful programs like helicopter piloting and motorcycle hot-wiring downloaded into their brains, then they can have malicious programs downloaded into their brains, as well. But this follows the same problem that both Reloaded and Revolutions repeatedly suffered from -- they don't explain anything concretely. Just like they don't explain what happened to the previous counterbalances (who I'm guessing were the other Smiths that Smith refers to when he says "I am a Smith" in the first movie) when Neo's predecessors chose to take the Architect's offer. Obviously the counterbalance must've been neutralized somehow, because they obviously didn't replicate endlessly like Smith did and take over the Matrix, but they don't tell you how. It's just the only explanation that makes sense.
quote:
- why the heck did Smith Bane keep cutting himself?... Yes, human bodies are rather fragile, but one cut would be enough to figure that out... maybe that was a part of the destructive tendencies that threatned both the humans and machines?...
The most reasonable explanation I've seen is that he was testing out his new world, much like Neo was testing out the Matrix in the first movie when he used the dojo and building-jump training programs. But again, they just leave you with the only reasonable explanation, not one that's actually explained.
And personally, my only problem with the movie was the very end. It was cliche and it sucked. Every villain that absorbs people is always defeated by absorbing something that poisons it. The way Smith was defeated wasn't any different from the way Spider-Man defeated Hydro-Man in the Spider-Man animated series or how Captain Janeway defeated the Borg on Voyager. If someone's in a sci-fi/superhero/fantasy story and their special ability is absorbing stuff, they always die the same way: they absorb something, but this time they choke on it and die.
They also piled the old "arrogant villain" cliche onto Smith, which I've always hated. The arrogant villain always works the same way. He takes a hostage and then throws them away instead of killing them. He stops to chat and lets the hero catch his breath and strategize. He ties all but two of his several thousand arms behind his back and fights with a massive handicap. It's all just so old and lame. It's also out of character, because Smith has never held back before. In The Matrix, he tried to kill Trinity, killed Neo, set up a deal that killed the crew, and only held back on Morpheus because he needed the keys to Zion. In Reloaded, he used his full power on Neo, killed the keymaster, tried to kill Morpheus, and the only reason he didn't follow Neo into the Architect's room was because he couldn't open the door. But in Revolutions, he starts being lenient on hostages and fights Neo without his full power? It's totally inconsistent and out of character.
The rest of it was great, though. I loved every minute of the whole trilogy up until those last thirty minutes of the six to seven hour story. I guess now I know exactly how Star Wars fans felt when Return of the Jedi came out. Great... great... getting better... wow, that was cool... wait a second, what the fuck is an Ewok?!?!?!
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| Juke Joint Jezebel 2467th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
|  "Re(1):OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion"
, posted Sun 9 Nov 04:03:
this thread is long already, so i'm gonna try to keep this short and sweet (like a midget). avoiding the storyline (and instead focusing on how the movie was compiled), there's a couple of things i noticed in this chapter that made it different than the others
1. didn't start off with an action scene
in the others, there was a beautiful introduction battle that caught the viewer's eye. this one started off pretty slow. i personally don't mind "slow" movies (i'm not a complete action whore) but imo it kinda broke the pattern they had set
2. kid that talks too much
i'm sure that little girl will turn out to be a great actress one day, but i honestly believe that children should not have roles in movies where they talk a lot. i don't think they're old enough to understand how to present to an audience that certain range of emotions. the kid just kept yammering on, like she was sagely or something. i guess it'd kinda fit her character since she was a program, but i couldn't convince myself that what she was saying was from the heart and not from a piece of paper she had memorized
3. no emotion (and/or bad dialogue)
in this movie, a lot of characters said a lot of nonsensical things or presented emotions that i just didn't buy.
i know Reeves isn't the best actor in the world, but when he was talking with the Oracle, i couldn't stop thinking about how stupid/annoying his questions/replies were. i remember whispering to myself "god, who wrote this?"
and one thing i didn't believe was that leader guy's fury (the one that was opposed to Niobe giving her ship to Neo). to me, it seemed like he was screaming just because it was fun. his words made sense but his voice was a lie.
there's several other occasions i could list about characters displaying no emotion or more downright silly dialogue, but i won't bring them up unless someone requests it
4. too many characters to follow
there were way too many characters that we were supposed to care about. like the two-man (two-woman, rather) explosives team, the 16-year-old kid, the guy who led the "Goliaths" (hehe, StarCraft term. those huge machinegun Magitek-armor things), not to mention the main characters and any other side characters i may have left out. it got a bit confusing at times and each story was too short. there just wasn't enough time for us to establish a link with the character.
if you've read this far into my post, i'm sure you can already tell that emotion is a very important element to me. i could care less about the outcome of a character if i have no emotional link with them. whether or not any of those side characters died or triumphed, my feelings towards them would have still remained the same
5. hm, Trinity's death
i can't pinpoint it but they messed it up somehow. maybe it's how they gave her that long speech after being wounded or something else, but they definitely fucked up her death. when i watched Reloaded, a few tears fell when she almost died. i had to bite my cheek and wipe my face quick before any of my friends noticed. but in Revolutions, something changed. "fucking die already," i remember thinking. i'm not sure how my emotional link with that character got cut off, but it did. kinda pisses me off; i really like Trinity so why didn't i feel anything when she died?
6. when you've reached a certain point in your power, things can get wacky
i've seen it happen in Dragon Ball and it also happened here. for those of you that have actually watched Dragon Ball (and not just Z), you can remember down-to-Earth battles that didn't just consist of flying, and charging, and other zany things. can't expect them to stick with their old style of fighting if they have these new abilities. kinda a shame. we didn't see much matrix action in this Matrix. just an ok gun scene and two dudes flying around.
a quick poke at the story .. you know, Smith probably could've defeated Neo if he wasn't so bold. 999999999999999999999999 vs 1 HE CANT STOP YOU ALL. and don't be pompous and try to absorb him. kill him. stop his mind from functioning
there's probably a couple of other things i could list but i'll just leave it at that. i've already spent at least an hour writing this. jeez, and i said i'd keep it short. sorry. although i've pointed out a lot of things i disliked in this final movie, there were a few things i thought were awesome. i loved how they portrayed the robot army. swarms and swarms and swarms of drone warriors. it's exactly as i had imagined them. and i loved the Eurotrash! onslaught's dream! and that babe that was with the Frenchie .. my god. although the ending didn't explain a damn thing, it's exactly as i had expected it. lots of people in the theater, including my friends, were pretty pissed about the ending. i was just laughing. but if it was up to me, i probably would've ended it somewhat similar. what do people want? how would they react to a flashforward X years into the future? robots and humans helping eachother out, and giving eachother highfives, and building shit together? good thing they cut the ending off there. leave the rest to our perverse imaginations
reading a lot of your opinions is pretty interesting. made a lot of sense of things i probably wouldn't have been able to figure out myself
and now, a couple of replies to a couple of quotes
quote:
and I absolutely hate that kid
i thought he was gonna whip out some tight skateboarding skillz on those robots. (i'm serious.) i was very disappointed
quote:
Smith didnt have to throw the cookies on the wall. she took ALL DAMN DAY TO MAKE THEM.
if she started making them earlier, Neo and the little girl probably would've finished them all before Smith(s) came! BLAME THE SLO-RACLE
quote:
DarkZero
i won't even try to quote you. but even before i hit "post," it's interesting how we share a lot of the same opinions
quote:
And why did the machine leader have a baby face.
lmao
i thought i was the only one. i was probably the only one in the theater laughing at that
quote:
Persophone was HOT.
agreed. fucking hell
Darkworld Jazz
[this message was edited by Juke Joint Jezebel on Sun 9 Nov 05:07] |
| DarkZero 452th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(3):OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Sun 9 Nov 05:59
Hopefully brief addendum:
I saw a lot of bitching about something on Slashdot and it made me want to clarify something. When I said I hated the last thirty minutes or so, I didn't actually mean that. I meant the space between Trinity dying and the Oracle and Architect talking to one another. Trinity dying was okay and so was the very end of the movie. The Machine City, Deus Ex Machina, the final Neo vs. Smith fight, that horrible sci-fi cliche where all of the drones suddenly become pacified and/or dormant right as they're about to slaughter everyone, and everything else in that space was cringe-inducing, like a fifteen to twenty minute Zion rave scene.
Second, I never voiced my hatred for that scene where the Oracle explains why Neo has his powers outside of the Matrix. That was just idiotic and out of character. He asks an extremely important question, the Oracle gives him the ridiculous bullshit answer, "Because you're still connected to the Source", and instead of using his new favorite phrase, the phrase that emphasizes his newfound backbone -- "You didn't answer my question." -- he just moves on. He's angry, he feels betrayed, he doesn't trust her any more, and he probably has even less tolerance for her during that conversation than he ever had for the Architect... but any old non-answer that she can come up with is A-OK with him?
The fact that there was suddenly levity and humor in some of the movie's dialogue was jarring enough. They didn't need to make odd changes to Neo and Smith on top of it.
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| Luisinan 550th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(4):OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Sun 9 Nov 12:27
After reading the newer post here are some replies to your thoughts.
Neo vs Smith-- did make sense.
You can't make the hero or the villain omnipotent in a story. If we did, both Neo or Smith woulda won with the flick of their wrist. That's shit storytelling. Either way, neither of them was omnipotent to begin with. I think the 1 vs 1 was appropriate for them anyway.
It's also good stoytelling for it to be a 1 vs 1 fight. Sometimes you throw out logic to make a better story. We all wanted a 1 versus 1 fight for Neo and Smith. Not another burly brawl.
Smith's character change. Dark Zero brought this up. I see it as a progression. By the third movie Smith became insane. He became a nihilst. He got more angry then usual. Remember the infamous laughing scene (I love that scene, funny but great). I think that's why he did what he did- I think Smith was becoming a little human too. That's why he wanted a 1 on 1 duel with Neo too. He had become a bit arrogant but it was also a matter of pride-- he wanted to beat Neo without the help of anyone else (or other selves). I think it was him going a bit nutty and I liked that.
I agree with DarkZero about some of the flaws that he pointed out. But I just don't think they were humongous flaws. It's a pathetic defense to say this, but I'll say it, some things are best left ambiguous so that folks can have something to talk about.
Trin's death was semi-lame. But, pff, what can you do. This movie actually got me a little teary eyed in certain parts-- even though it had some 'original Star Wars campiness (TM)' in it.
Like I said, I really felt worried and scared for the characters. And yeah, some lines and acting were a bit off. I'm not a Matrix apologist!
The ending was cheezy, but whatever!
Bored? "160"
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| Sensenic 899th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(5):OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Mon 10 Nov 03:49:
A couple of points I wanted to comment: First of all I agree with JJJ about Trinity's death and the dialogues in general. The former was definitely too long, it made you think "Die already and let the movie continue!".
The latter were sooo full stereotypical, deep-and-philosophical-wannabe lines and phrases that, IMO, they wanted to be so rich that they got turned out to be really poor. Meh.
As for Smith's actions in the final battle, first lemme tell you, Darkzero, I still don't agree with the Oracle having the power of "seeing the future" (but I'll thank because I hadn't noticed the little girl having the ability to change weather This starts to look like the X-Men  ), she's "only" really fuckin' intelligent. So if Smith sees his victory is because the Oracle had already "calculated" that it would end up this way, as she also calculated that he'd absorb Neo (out of pride, I completely agree with Luisinan about Smith's "evolution") and that then Neo would sacrifice himself (that'd be why she "trusted him").
But the main question here is "Why didn't all the other Smiths fight?" and the answer I give it is "Because it wasn't necessary, and smith knew it". You know, I'd keep asking myself that same question during the whole fight because I thought eventually Neo would win, but all made perfect sense when Smith turned out to be the "winner". The other, euh..., "clones" didn't fight because Smith knew beforehand, thanks to the Oracle's "power", that the "Oracle-eyed" Smith alone would be perfectly capable of winning Neo, as it was proven later.
EDIT: Former <-> Latter
Mwahahaha! I'm gonna murder someone...
How do you say "sushi" in Japanese? :D
Victoria Beckham (not confirmed)
[this message was edited by Sensenic on Mon 10 Nov 03:50] |
| DarkZero 455th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(5):OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Mon 10 Nov 06:17
quote:
Smith's character change. Dark Zero brought this up. I see it as a progression. By the third movie Smith became insane. He became a nihilst. He got more angry then usual. Remember the infamous laughing scene (I love that scene, funny but great). I think that's why he did what he did- I think Smith was becoming a little human too. That's why he wanted a 1 on 1 duel with Neo too. He had become a bit arrogant but it was also a matter of pride-- he wanted to beat Neo without the help of anyone else (or other selves). I think it was him going a bit nutty and I liked that.
I agree with DarkZero about some of the flaws that he pointed out. But I just don't think they were humongous flaws. It's a pathetic defense to say this, but I'll say it, some things are best left ambiguous so that folks can have something to talk about.
I'll accept that Smith fighting with massive handicaps was just a progression of the sort of insanity that he showed in the first movie during the infamous "It's the smell!" speech, as well as the Oracle's influence upon him (which Sensenic mentioned), even though that goes back to the whole Hydro-Man/Parasite/Borg Queen cliche that I still think is ridiculous. But "some things are best left ambiguous" is, indeed, a pathetic defense. I don't mind some things being left ambiguous, like where Neo went at the end, what Neo actually was (some characters seem to refer to him as a program or some sort of man-machine hybrid, even though he seems like a flesh-and-blood human being), who/what the other incarnations of Neo and Smith were, how much control the Oracle and the Architect actually had over everything, etc. But there are some parts where there was no room for ambiguity. The quick explanation of Smith as a counter-anomaly that always appears to balance out The One doesn't make anything ambiguous. It just shoves a big plot hole into everything that the Architect explained. The same goes for Neo's uninterested reaction to what the Oracle says about the powers he has outside of the Matrix. The answer itself might've made things sort of ambiguous, but it really just makes the writing really inconsistent because Neo isn't the sort of character that accepts those answers any more.
And you're right, they're not humongous flaws. They're just little plot holes and inconsistencies that don't need to be there and shouldn't just be brushed off as some sort of brilliant counterculture ambiguity on the part of the Wachowskis. They're errors and I guess I'm preying upon them mostly because they're being widely touted as some sort of brilliant and inspired move on the writers' part. Plot errors are a minor annoyance until someone tries to pretend that they're something intentional, brilliant, or even just excusable. They are not. They're foolish mistakes on the part of the writers.
And you can't tell me that the whole Borg Queen thing wasn't a humongous flaw. When you watch a movie that uses the same lame science fiction cliche that Star Trek: Voyager based an episode off of, you know that there are better ways that your time could be spent. Like eating paint chips. Or watching the absolute worst episode of Spider-Man: The Animated Series in the show's entire multi-year run just to see how incredibly common this cliche is.
Hydro-Man: Worst. Spidey. Villain. Ever.
Even. Worse. Than. Shocker.
Sensenic:
quote:
A couple of points I wanted to comment: First of all I agree with JJJ about Trinity's death and the dialogues in general. The former was definitely too long, it made you think "Die already and let the movie continue!".
The latter were sooo full stereotypical, deep-and-philosophical-wannabe lines and phrases that, IMO, they wanted to be so rich that they got turned out to be really poor. Meh.
I've actually seen this reaction to Revolutions repeated pretty often and while I definitely understand it, it still mystifies me in a way. I wasn't bothered by the quasi-philosophical lines from Neo, Smith, the Oracle, or the Merovingian so much as the cliche action hero dialogue and one-liners from Neo and the humans in the Zion. "Because I choose to" really made me cringe, because the thing I liked about Neo was that he was completely unlike any other action hero. No one liners, no overt macho jackassery... just a nice, polite, understated kind of guy that only taunted his opponents through stances and hand movements. Again, it seemed like some of the writing went really out of character, or at least "evolved" or "grew" from really non-standard situations and dialogue to some truly cliche sci-fi action movie crap. Neo started out as a quiet, polite sort of hero with Smith, a very restrained but malevolent individual, as his enemy, but by the end it was the standard one liner spewing hero vs. the arrogant-to-a-fault super evil villain.
And I don't think anybody enjoyed all the one liners and cheap war movie dialogue from Lock, Mifune, and The Kid. The war scenes as a whole were great, but the dialogue and characters were easily the weakest part of it. The infantry babes were cool, though. They were pretty cliche too, but at least they didn't complete the cliche by hamming it up with melodramatic war movie dialogue.
quote:
As for Smith's actions in the final battle, first lemme tell you, Darkzero, I still don't agree with the Oracle having the power of "seeing the future" (but I'll thank because I hadn't noticed the little girl having the ability to change weather This starts to look like the X-Men ), she's "only" really fuckin' intelligent. So if Smith sees his victory is because the Oracle had already "calculated" that it would end up this way, as she also calculated that he'd absorb Neo (out of pride, I completely agree with Luisinan about Smith's "evolution") and that then Neo would sacrifice himself (that'd be why she "trusted him").
Yes, yes, she doesn't really "see the future", she has a kind of foreknowledge by knowing most of the variables of the Matrix and calculating the future outcomes of them with her immense intellect... six of one, half dozen of another. Regardless of the mechanic behind it, she has knowledge of the future and it's an ability that she passed on to Smith. That still goes back to Hydro-Man and the Borg Queen, though.
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| Luisinan 552th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(6):OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Mon 10 Nov 08:07
Hrm. I'll only argue on the Neo/Smith fight. The other points I agree or just agree to disagree.
Anyway, how would you have ended the trilogy DarkZero? The Matrix borrows a ton of conventions and ideas from many other films and genres. We didn't know it in Matrix 1, but Smith and Neo were meant to be opposites- nemesis. So, when it came to the final battle, it would be them two- one on one.
I still hold the notion that Smith's decision to fight Neo alone was acceptable because:
(a) he was insane (damn, I love that laughing scene)
(b) he was acting vain (gotta defeat Neo alone)
(c) it was the best option for Smith (one on one, all his powered focused on one body)
(d) it was the best option for the story (c'mon, it's better then burly brawl x 1000)
Yeah, I think Smith did fall a little in the 'arrogant villain complex'. But I don't think it was a cop out on the behalf of the writers because they had written themselves into a corner. I believe the W-brothers wanted that 1 on 1 fight, and I believe everything in the three films led up to that fight.
A side note. Writing about this makes really see how Smith and Neo really mirror each other in opposite ways. In the first movie Neo was the confused newbie while Smith was the cool, collected veteran. By the end, Neo is in total control and Smith is just losing it cause he's power drunk. And then you have the blatant symbolism where Neo is "the One" and Smith is "the Many". Hrm. Are the W-Brothers anti-Socialists or what!
Bored? "160"
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| Gen 2167th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):Matrix 3: Electric Boogaloo" , posted Mon 10 Nov 17:25:
quote:
The end of the movie was as clear as the day is long if you're familiar with eastern myth and religious symbolism.
I feel like I got the movie without thinking about eastern myth / religious symbolism. Some stuff like the power of the human mind and a savior you'd have to get for the movie... However I don't think this movie is especially deep. I don't care that much, but if you'd like to please share what outside knowledge would enhase "getting" the movie?
sabo10quote:
gaygayx
hey that name looks kinda cool, "gaygayx" well it reminds me of Xexex or Xexyz
NARUTOquote:
BTW, this is just a question but in an interview, the actors who have played the 2 twins in reloaded, say that they aren't in the revolution. so far nothing great..
BUT! they say that they will think for the 4 and 5...so what is it? an hoax? a misunderstood? or truht?
Keanu and Laurence have said that they're done with the serries. I'm sure the studio will make more unless the directors hava a controlling interest and opt to put the franchise to rest.
Sensenicquote:
About the plot, one question: I think I overall understand it (atleastmoreorlessorperhapsorwhatever) but there's this one thing I just can't figure out. What the hell did Neo or Smith do.... or better, what the hell did the Oracle have them to do that was different from all the previous times, so Neo could negotiate peace with the machines? According to Smith's last lines, all that fighting has happened with all their previous versions, so... what has been the difference this time so the machines (and the Architect) had to accept Neo's (and the Oracle's) terms? Maybe she let Smith take over too much this time? Hmmm.... just can't figure it out.
The Oracle just provided guidance same as always I'm guessing. The Oracle made a choice to side with Neo that made her appearance change, but I assumed that was just so they could recast the actor. One difference may have been Neo's decision in the 2nd movie to walk through the door way unexpected by the Archetect. Smith was apparently victorious the times before. This "One" apparently changed Smith like Juan was saying. Smith grew out of the programs' control. Neo was able to reach the machine city, the "source" to talk to the giant mulitple bug head. So Neo and the programs agreed that there would be peace if Neo stopped Smith. We don't know exactly what happened to the other Ones other than the fact that there are people still in the Matrix. The difference this time apparently is just that this One, Neo, made a few different decisions and mainly was able to enter an agreement with the machines to stop the out of control Smith. The machines follow through on keeping peace is simpally there because they're keeping their word.
Sensenicquote:
I used to think that too. Since the end of Reloaded and almost during the whole movie, but when Smith has started to remember... when Neo has understood it was unavoidable (I guess because he remembered too)... then I've started to think this was in the Architect's plans too. He said they did all that to solve certain anomalies that appeared from time to time, so I guessed he was refering to both the One and the Virus (the Oracle, who's the mastermind behind all this, also tells Neo Smith is him). They'd be a simultanious anomaly that appears in both sides, humans and programs.
I think some of the things relating to the One were added to the Archtect's Matrix plan in order to maintain better control, but I don't think Smith going out of control or Neo succeeding in getting peace were part of his plan. These are things the Archect's plan would try to avoid.
I remember her saying that Smith is the negative version of Neo. I didn't catch that the One phenomina occured both in humans and machines but maybe that's in there. Some of this stuff in the movie I think they just hodgepodge make up as they go along.
Juanquote:
I tought Neo was the only anomaly. I DONT KNOW MAYBE SOMEONE ELSE DOES.
I think the human One was the only major anomaly, at least originally. If Smith became such an "anomaly" it's because Neo made him that way.
quote:
Smith didnt have to throw the cookies on the wall. she took ALL DAMN DAY TO MAKE THEM.
heh some people were giggling at that part in the theater. They also giggled when that one ship captain got all pissed off and at a few other such parts.
EddyT
hmm yeah I guess that is right.
Sensenicquote:
- In Reloaded you see that the Oracle can't see the future, she just remembers what the other Ones (and the rest of the rebels) did, and acts consequently.
That's interesting. I didn't catch that she has no predictive ability, I'm sure she can remember previous versions of the Matrix like that but I thought she was a program designed to predict things too.
That doesn't mean she can predict everything perfectly, just probably better than anyone else. There was a line about how she didn't know something at one point but she believed, right?
quote:
- Another one: Smith's fear and Neo's comprehension, as they understand that they're repeating the same story, like the Architect stated to him. Neo thought he'd marked the difference by going through the left door (was it the left one?) but then he comprehends (I guess) he was there to cancel Smith so Matrix can reset and everything returns to normal, as Smith starts to fear that he's gonna lose anyway, that's why he's not convinced of his victory even when he absorbs Neo. No?
Yes Smith is afraid it didn't work, and it didn't.
quote:
- And the final one: the dialog between the Oracle and the Architect, where you can see they both were above all this mess, monitoring and controlling everything so all happened as they prevued. The difference would be that, this time, the Oracle was the one in control of the situation, so the Architect had to give up and allow peace, as the machines in the real world had to give up too.
The archetect seems to be oversith for the Matrix in addition to designer. Oracle manipulated things but I don't think she controlls things especially or was persuing a selfish personal agenda, I think she really wanted to help humans. The Archetect wasn't happy about peace and probably about loosing a large chunk of their power supply but he obviously didn't have enough controll to stop it. However he's not exactly miserable or depressed about it either, it's not the end of the world. I think it's more than just a game between the two players the Oracle and the Archetect. In which everyone else are just board pieces. The Archetect was just doing his job and the Oracle kindly decided to help humans. Apparently in all previous times the Archetect was able to maintain the Matrix save for reseting it several times, but reseting it probably wasn't super terrible for the Archetect and his resources. This time the Oracle's side won.
quote:
So, then, my question is: Supposing that the Neo-Smith, or better, One-Virus fight happened all the previous times an anomaly appeared, what did Neo do, or what did the Oracle make Neo or Smith do so Smith would become such a menace to humans and machines? My guess is that she just somehow let him go out of control trusting that Neo would eventually be able to cancel Smith. And viceversa :)
I think the Oracle just provide's guidance and this one's on Neo. In the end of the first movie they blew up Smith. I think it was an after the fact decision to bring Smith back because the actor was cool in the role / it was a striking character for the audiance etc.. So Neo either advertantly or inadvertantly cause a strange change in Smith when he appeared to try to destroy him but actually was "hacking" him (perhaps when he jumped inside it) to make changes for the future, or tried to destoy him but accidently changed the program rather than completely destroying it. I didn't see the movie explain Neo's intent or actions in this. Only Smith had said that Neo changed him and took away his purpose.
Omarquote:
think the reason Smith becomes afraid is because he has taken the "powers" of the Oracle and can "see" the future.
that could be so. Didn't Smith say to Neo, before Smith had taken over the Oracle, that he had came after the other Ones previous to meeting Neo though?
GekigangerVquote:
Since Morpheus seemed to be freed from a previous anamoly, I'm guessing it was not that long ago that the Matrix had to be re-programmed since the anamoly of "the one" is necessary to the machines and the humans in re-starting.
I think Morpheous would have been freed by other freed regular humans.
Burning Kyoquote:
I have only 1 question after watched this movie : How Smith died ?
Neo allowed himself to be defeated by Smith in order to be in a position where Smith could be stopped. In the movie they said that programs that didn't have a purpose were deleted. My friend said that Neo being killed by Smith fulfilled Smith's purpose of killing Neo and thus Smith ceased to exist. I disagree for the following reasons. 1 The little girl program didn't have a purpose but wasn't deleted. 2 Smith said he didn't have a purpose after Neo separated him from the main controll or whatever but he didn't get delted, and then he may have picked a new purpose only afterword of destroying Neo. 3 The Oracle, a program absorbed by Smith, was returned to normal after Smith was defeated. So thus Neo wasn't necessarily killed when absorbed by Smith and thus Smith wouldn't necessarily have fullfilled the purpose of killing Neo.
Ikari Leonaquote:
- by having access to Neo and the whole Matrix world, the Machine Boss (or "Deus Ex Machina"?... I could swear I saw such a character name in the credits...) had now a much firmer grip on Smith once he "possessed" Neo, and thus was able to delete
Maybe however my opinion is that Neo did it himself.
quote:
how the heck did smith manage to completely possess a real human anyway - once unplugged, bane should have to "software factors"
I could come up with an answer that is somewhat technobable. Sense the Matrix with billions of human minds/nervous systems/bodies/whatever pluged into it allows humans to interact and their are programs in the matrix apparently as complicated as humans, and humans are able to go in and out of the matrix, and Smith is able to take over other people in the Matrix, it's not that much of a stretch that he could take over someone who was then removed from the link to the matrix and still have the Smith copy controlling the body even outside of the matrix.
quote:
- why the heck did Smith Bane keep cutting himself?... Yes, human bodies are rather fragile, but one cut would be enough to figure that out... maybe that was a part of the destructive tendencies that threatned both the humans and machines?...
I don't think that part was in the movie? Perhaps the human realized that Smith was in his head and tried to kill himself to stop Smith, but Smith was able to take over before that. Perhaps Smith tried cutting the body for some evil reason like to see what it was like.
quote:
- what are the machines going to do with Neo's body?... Could it have something to do with the Architect's plans for him had he crossed the other door in Reloaded?... The "light machine-o-vision" Neo experienced during blindness does make me wonder if he's somehow part machine... that would explain the Architect's command in the 2nd movie about him being "mostly human" or something like that, and having a consisted biological base to work with would explain why all of the previous iterations of the Neo anomaly all looked the same, despite being separated by at least a century...
Assuming he's dead they are either going to dump him, recycle him, leave him there, leave him there for the humans to pick up, or return him to the humans. Sense they are at piece it would seem that they'd return the them to the humans.
I think Neo being the One leads to him being able to visualize the machine's energy.
I think the only unhuman thing about Neo is the connections to the Matrix that all the people attached to it have had.
I'm not sure if those video screens in the Archetect's crib were meant to be exact videos of the previous Ones or perhpase things previous Ones have said but with Neo's face, or perhaps predictions of what Neo would say. I think they were guesses of what Neo would say.
quote:
what's the whole deal about Seraph's wings, apart from the fact that a seraphim is the highest in the hierarchy of angels?... I find him one of the coolest new characters to have been introduced in Reloaded, and more info on him would be appreciated
His wings?
DarkZeroquote:
But this follows the same problem that both Reloaded and Revolutions repeatedly suffered from -- they don't explain anything concretely
That's true they don't explain a number of things, and probably overexplain a few others.
well I've read like 3/5ths of the thread time for a break. food...
[this message was edited by Gen on Mon 10 Nov 17:26] |
| ONSLAUGHT 2456th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "MESSATSU" , posted Mon 10 Nov 19:10
quote:
Original message (850 Views )37
TheBeast1588th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
"OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion thread" , posted Wed 5 Nov 08:54
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Your take on the The Matrix Revolutions...
Guess the critics were right after all. It was very much a pretty disappointing wrap-up to what could be a great triology, from someone like me who have enjoyed the first two.
I suppose the ending was meant to be so, so I am not disappointed at how it ended, but the process at which it ended. The whole final movie didn't present anything new that we haven't seen from the first two before, and that sucks. It is essentially just a lot of crappy man vs machine scenes before it arrived at an ending that basically just pleases majority of the audience. That makes it all just seem like the two sequels were rather redundant and unnecessary, and that beats the initial intended purpose of the first Matrix movie, which is to provoke radical changes in thinking mindset (in a way redefining movie-making standards as well...)
Once again, I fell prey to money-making movies. Darn.
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BlackNinjaVinny666th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"Re(1).gif) TheMatrix Revolution discussion " , posted Wed 5 Nov 13:57
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The movie was WAYYYYYYY to rushed and it showed. The Hell coatroom shootout was a rehash of the lobby int he first one, which pissed me off, because again I get shafted in the gun department with this movie :( The only thing worth seeing was the Zion fight, in my opinion. That was fuckign intense. The end fight blew too. Seriously, all the fake stories that people posted of the movie were a Hell of alot better then this one.
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Gojira1184th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member+
"Re(1)TheMatrix Revolution discussion " , posted Wed 5 Nov 14:53
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I always laugh my ass off whenever the actors have to look at that crappy old screen saver and pretend it means something
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talbaineric5520th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Critics hated it" , posted Wed 5 Nov 15:08
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Man. In a way,this kind of pisses me off. Why the fuck are critics attacking all the good flicks lately?
Matrix Revolutions,however,as TheBeast and B.N.V. politely put it. It wasn't great at all. It sucked. Reloaded kind of was wack and made me left wondering at the end. But this was yawn-fest. Only die-hard Matrix fans will like this. I hope it falls out of the top slot right away. There are better movies coming out or are already out(Love Actually,Brother Bear,Scary Movie 3,Kill Bill,e.t.c.)
Thank God the price this was before the matinee. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth the 9.50 or so.(depending on the theatres prices here).
For those who actually like this movie,sorry. But those,like Beast's and BNV's,are my humble 2 cents.
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Porcellino400th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(2)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Wed 5 Nov 15:10
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I wanted answers and I wanted a great climax for the trilogy...I had both things so It's more than ok with me.
The war in Zion could't be more intense and the last battle was longer and way harder than I expected.
Also found the plot different from everything ppl has been posting around and I found it very very interesting since It was...mmm....was...different :P better than expected.
I don't think Matrix Revolutions is a masterpiece unable to be improved but since hating it is the most 'in-fashion' I'll leave it to everyone else that job ^_^
*Sorry, my English is bad but today is even WORST..dunnowhy...me....need...sleep..*
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Tobanaibutaha...tadanobutada....
bootation296th Post
Copper Customer
"Re(3)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Wed 5 Nov 20:15
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I wanted answers and I wanted a great climax for the trilogy...I had both things so It's more than ok with me.
The war in Zion could't be more intense and the last battle was longer and way harder than I expected.
Also found the plot different from everything ppl has been posting around and I found it very very interesting since It was...mmm....was...different :P better than expected.
I don't think Matrix Revolutions is a masterpiece unable to be improved but since hating it is the most 'in-fashion' I'll leave it to everyone else that job ^_^
*Sorry, my English is bad but today is even WORST..dunnowhy...me....need...sleep..*
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That movie was hella intense. It seems like they left it open for another sequel or something. There was a few things i didnt really understand. Like the end. All in all it was enjoyable.
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LenaShock
38th Post
Rare Customer
"Re(4)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Wed 5 Nov 20:25
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in the rain scene all I could think is Neo blasting his KI and becoming blond and Smith morphing in a giant gorilla... well... the brothers said the matrix has SOME influence from japanese animation, but the whole sequence of scenes is a copy and paste of a dragon ball episode...
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Oh my Engrish... so let's Practice...
bootation297th Post
Copper Customer
"Re(5)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Wed 5 Nov 20:45
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in the rain scene all I could think is Neo blasting his KI and becoming blond and Smith morphing in a giant gorilla... well... the brothers said the matrix has SOME influence from japanese animation, but the whole sequence of scenes is a copy and paste of a dragon ball episode...
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Yeah but the martial art wasnt as good. I kept hoping Neo would power up and be like cup his hands really slow and go..."KA MEY,
HA MEY, HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But instead well.
smith...=(
It really was a pretty sweet movie tho.
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OYashiroForever600th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"Matrix 3: Electric Boogaloo" , posted Thu 6 Nov 00
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Haven't completely wrapped my head around it all yet, but I definitely enjoyed it. The end of the movie was as clear as the day is long if you're familiar with eastern myth and religious symbolism. I understand that that's kind of like saying "you don't get it" to defend the series (a mistake most of the virulently pro-Matrix folk tend to make), but there you have it. There was tons of overblown, ham-fisted dialogue, I kinda wanted to see a little more action inside "the Matrix", and I absolutely hate that kid (the white boy, not the little Indian lass), but the Zion fight was intense and I thought the series was wrapped up in a beautifully symbolic way. Critics who whine about the movie having no character or emotion clearly are writing their reviews without watching the movie.
I still prefer the first movie, but the third one certainly has its own charm and I'll be buying the "inevitable" super-duper SE box set on DVD whenever it shows up.
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Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
Edit: The final sequence has nothing to do with Dragon Ball and everything to do with Superman II ("Kneel before me, son of Jor-el!"). If it had been like Dragon Ball, the one fight would've lasted 8 hours, consisted of the same 4 or 5 sequences of attack animation repeated over and over again, and every single other minor character from the series would've attacked Smith first and been killed. Then, of course, they would play the power-up/fight/power-up/fight game for hours, their hair would get progressively longer, and their muscles would stretch in to ridiculous, inhuman proportions. Oh, and they would have had to tell each other between each sequence of powering up what percentage of their full ability they were using. Then it would be somewhat like Dragon Ball.
End of Spoiler
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Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
No... I'm not a fan.
End of Spoiler
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"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
[this message was edited by OYashiroForever on Thu 6 Nov 00:32]
sabo10762th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
"Re(1):Matrix 3: Electric Boogaloo" , posted Thu 6 Nov 01
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movie was for fagets
they should have called it gaytrix revolutions or matrix gayvolutions or gaytrix gayvolutions or gaygayx gaygaygaygays
also neo = osama bin laden
that was the only cool part
also it seems no one in this thread seems to be able to understand the subtle (gay) points of this movie (they where very gay)
I'm afraid here, (and in the rolling stone) are the only two places where you will hear it WITHOUT THE SPIN.
edit: If I wanted to fuck around with all of that eastern mythology bullshit, I'd go home and stick my dick in a fortune cookie.
edit 2: DAT'S WUT I TINK
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Welcone
Needless to say
Please give me the Jesus advent
[this message was edited by sabo10 on Thu 6 Nov 01:17]
NARUTO1869th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
"Re(2):Matrix 3: Electric Boogaloo" , posted Thu 6 Nov 02:38
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BTW, this is just a question but in an interview, the actors who have played the 2 twins in reloaded, say that they aren't in the revolution. so far nothing great..
BUT! they say that they will think for the 4 and 5...so what is it?
an hoax? a misunderstood? or truht?
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Porcellino402th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(2):Matrix 3: Electric Boogaloo" , posted Thu 6 Nov 02:42
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84
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Tobanaibutaha...tadanobutada....
Sensenic889th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
"Re(3):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Thu 6 Nov 13
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Like everybody here (it seems), I'd liked it more if they had stopped after the first one... but I didn't dislike their final idea, and reaaally hope they don't decide to make more sequels and screw it completely to get more money, that'd probably be... -_-{ugh...
So, Revolutions was more or less as I thought it'd be, guess I can say I liked it. To me it had the same flaws of Reloaded and the same strong points.
The flaw, the big one IMHO, would be this element present in most of the real world scenes and the dialogues in general. All those really felt to me, as Rolling Stone's review stated it (although I don't agree with the rest), "high on its own grandiosity". This feeling I'm being given today that all the movies have to be big, and I mean BIG, also EPIC, DRAMATIC, SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER EVER IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE IMAGINED, etc. all these scenes gave it to me and, naaaw, me no likes. Me prefers the more "intimistic" (did I say it right?) background of the first one, or even all those Matrix fight scenes in the second one, with all its efectism (also too much IMO), are better than those epic battle scenes like in those superproductions back at... 40s-50s was it? with tones of extras and such. We're returning to that, and I don't like it. Of course this's 100% pure personal opinion, not trying to state it as an objective fact.
The good points: The parallelism between quotidian things and computer terminology; for example, the back doors that appear in Reloaded, when the Merovingian programs an "aphrodisiac cake", the little girl's sky, blah, blah, blah....I specially like how they show the programs, as also alive and intelligent beings who have developed their society, parallel to the human's one, in the Matrix and "surroundings". Yeah, I know it's not an original idea, there were Level 13 and other movies before, but I like how they showed them, their acts as normal people trying to do their best to keep living (and how those who are not "useful" anymore run away and hide to survive).
Another thing I liked a lot, from the ending this time: the idea of "peace" they give. That is, from Revolutions on, the machines will continue "living" from those who decide to stay in Matrix, while the free ones will be able to reconstruct their world freely with no fear of being attacked. While I guess for many people the happy ending would have been the humans beating the crap out of the machines and exterminating them, I consider this one better because, as stated above, the machines have proved themselves to be also intelligent therefore living creatures, so they have the right to live.
Hey, don't look at me that way, I like Trigun . Love and peace forever! All living creatures can live together without fighting ones against the others.
So, can say I liked these 2 sequels for the Matrix, couldn't care less about Zion. Of course, I prefer more the 2nd over this one.
About the plot, one question: I think I overall understand it (atleastmoreorlessorperhapsorwhatever) but there's this one thing I just can't figure out. What the hell did Neo or Smith do.... or better, what the hell did the Oracle have them to do that was different from all the previous times, so Neo could negotiate peace with the machines? According to Smith's last lines, all that fighting has happened with all their previous versions, so... what has been the difference this time so the machines (and the Architect) had to accept Neo's (and the Oracle's) terms? Maybe she let Smith take over too much this time? Hmmm.... just can't figure it out.
PS: And no, I'm not a hardcore Matrix fan either, I have no problem criticising any bad aspect I might find.
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84
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What does this mean?
EDIT: Made it (a liiittle) more intelligible. Don't expect miracles, though
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Mwahahaha! I'm gonna murder someone...
How do you say "sushi" in Japanese? :D
Victoria Beckham (not confirmed)
[this message was edited by Sensenic on Thu 6 Nov 14:09]
Juan3568th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(4):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Thu 6 Nov 14:17
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Smith wasnt supposed to become virus like, that never happened before on the Matrix. In the end Smith wanted to destroy everything, machines and humans. So with one common enemy, the machines and humans worked toghether.
Monkey didnt tell you that.
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About the plot, one question: I think I overall understand it (atleastmoreorlessorperhapsorwhatever) but there's this one thing I just can't figure out. What the hell did Neo or Smith do.... or better, what the hell did the Oracle have them to do that was different from all the previous times, so Neo could negotiate peace with the machines? According to Smith's last lines, all that fighting has happened with all their previous versions, so... what has been the difference this time so the machines (and the Architect) had to accept Neo's (and the Oracle's) terms? Maybe she let Smith take over too much this time? Hmmm.... just can't figure it out.
PS: And no, I'm not a hardcore Matrix fan either, I have no problem criticising any bad aspect I might find.
84
What does this mean?
EDIT: Made it (a liiittle) more intelligible. Don't expect miracles, though
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I am Viewtiful you scumbag!
Sensenic891th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
"Re(5):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Thu 6 Nov 14
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Smith wasnt supposed to become virus like, that never happened before on the Matrix. In the end Smith wanted to destroy everything, machines and humans. So with one common enemy, the machines and humans worked toghether.
Monkey didnt tell you that.
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I used to think that too. Since the end of Reloaded and almost during the whole movie, but when Smith has started to remember... when Neo has understood it was unavoidable (I guess because he remembered too)... then I've started to think this was in the Architect's plans too. He said they did all that to solve certain anomalies that appeared from time to time, so I guessed he was refering to both the One and the Virus (the Oracle, who's the mastermind behind all this, also tells Neo Smith is him). They'd be a simultanious anomaly that appears in both sides, humans and programs.
I think.
Not a Monkey Told you That
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Mwahahaha! I'm gonna murder someone...
How do you say "sushi" in Japanese? :D
Victoria Beckham (not confirmed)
[this message was edited by Sensenic on Thu 6 Nov 14:25]
Juan3569th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(6):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Thu 6 Nov 14:26
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I tought Neo was the only anomaly. I DONT KNOW MAYBE SOMEONE ELSE DOES.
Smith didnt have to throw the cookies on the wall. she took ALL DAMN DAY TO MAKE THEM.
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I thought that at the end of Reloaded and almost during the whole movie, but when Smith has started to remember... when Neo has understood it was unavoidable (I guess because he remembered too)... then I started to think this was in the Architect's plans too. He said they did all that to solve certain anomalies that appeared from time to time, so I guessed he was refering to both the One and the Virus (the Oracle, who's the mastermind behind all this, also tells Neo Smith is him) they'd be a simultanious anomaly that appears in both sides, humans and programs.
I think.
Not a Monkey Told you That
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I am Viewtiful you scumbag!
EddyT
213th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(7):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 01
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I tought Neo was the only anomaly. I DONT KNOW MAYBE SOMEONE ELSE DOES.
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From what I understand, after Neo beat Smith at the end of the original Matrix, Smith became an anomaly as well... basically a rogue program that didn't terminate properly due to Neo's interference. That's how he gained the ability to bend the rules of The Matrix.
He was able to manipulate the "self-inflicted wound" guy on the ship by taking over his alter ego in the Matrix world. You know... where he'd stab a person with his hand and they'd be covered with that metallic stuff until they became a clone of him. His new-found freedom from being an Agent (basically being a slave program for the mainframe) also granted Smith the ability to possess other Agents and other rogue programs too. That's why you saw all those Smith clones all over the place during the final showdown with Neo at the end of Revolutions. He took over basically everyone.
Correct me if I happen to be wrong. This is just what I observed after watching the first 2 movies.
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[this message was edited by EddyT on Fri 7 Nov 01:57]
Sensenic892th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
"Re(8):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 01:53
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From what I understand, after Neo beat Smith at the end of the original Matrix, Smith became an anomaly as well... basically a rogue program that didn't terminate properly due to Neo's interference. That's how he was able to bend the rules of The Matrix, possess real-world people jacked in and manipulate the "self-inflicted wound" guy. He was free from being an Agent and also gained the ability to possess Agents and other rogue programs too.
Correct me if I happen to be wrong. This is just what I observed after watching the first 2 movies.
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Uh-huh. I'd agree. But then my question still stands. What was the difference between this time and the previous ones, so the machines, both the "hardware" and the "software", had to accept peace?
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Mwahahaha! I'm gonna murder someone...
How do you say "sushi" in Japanese? :D
Victoria Beckham (not confirmed)
EddyT
214th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(9):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 02
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Uh-huh. I'd agree. But then my question still stands. What was the difference between this time and the previous ones, so the machines, both the "hardware" and the "software", had to accept peace?
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I'm not sure what you mean with the question... especially about "difference between this time and previous ones". Could you rephrase it? Do you mean previous movies?
I think the machines had no choice but to help the humans, due to the fact that Smith was bent on taking over both worlds and destroying everything. Humans, machines and software alike.
I think the machines decided on peace and not war with the humans anymore, due to Neo's courage and his responses to the machines' questions about his true intentions on fighting Smith in the Matrix.
Oh yeah, I thought the movie was okay, but it's like Return of the Jedi for me... the least impressive out of the trilogy. I do have to admit the movie was really suspensful, though.
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[this message was edited by EddyT on Fri 7 Nov 02:15]
Sensenic894th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
"Re(10):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 05
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I'm not sure what you mean with the question... especially about "difference between this time and previous ones". Could you rephrase it? Do you mean previous movies?
I think the machines had no choice but to help the humans, due to the fact that Smith was bent on taking over both worlds and destroying everything. Humans, machines and software alike.
I think the machines decided on peace and not war with the humans anymore, due to Neo's courage and his responses to the machines' questions about his true intentions on fighting Smith in the Matrix.
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Okay, lemme explain it. Sorry in advance if I can't make myself clear...
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From what I understand, after Neo beat Smith at the end of the original Matrix, Smith became an anomaly as well... basically a rogue program that didn't terminate properly due to Neo's interference. That's how he gained the ability to bend the rules of The Matrix.
He was able to manipulate the "self-inflicted wound" guy on the ship by taking over his alter ego in the Matrix world. You know... where he'd stab a person with his hand and they'd be covered with that metallic stuff until they became a clone of him. His new-found freedom from being an Agent (basically being a slave program for the mainframe) also granted Smith the hability to possess other Agents and other rogue programs too. That's why you saw all those Smith clones all over the place during the final showdown with Neo at the end of Revolutions. He took over basically everyone.
Correct me if I happen to be wrong. This is just what I observed after watching the first 2 movies.
Uh-huh. I'd agree. But then my question still stands. What was the difference between this time and the previous ones, so the machines, both the "hardware" and the "software", had to accept peace?
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Then I'd start with an "Oooops" because I musnderstood you and I don't agree. I know all you explain, and I thought the same as you and Juan until the very end of the movie, when Smith and Neo "recall"; when they realize it's "unavoidable", in Smith's words.
So, what do I mean when I say the "previous times"? Remember Reloaded? The Architect says that statistically, from time to time, since they first built the Matrix as it is, some anomaly or anomalies (too bad I can't remember if he used plural or singular ) would appear, jeopardizing the stability of the whole system. What did they (the Architect and the Oracle) do then? Giving this anomaly/these anomalies a big story to be part of. Let the anomaly (the One) build a human Resistance, a Zion, control this resistance and in the end, put the One in front of the Architect showing him the whole truth so he would decide to sacrify Zion and restart again the whole story in order to save the whole mankind. So when I said the "previous times" I referred to the previous loops of this story, the previous "Ones".
So far, it'd seem that the difference that allowed the Oracle and the present One, Neo, to negotiate peace would've been Smith's presence. That's what you said, that's what Juan said, that's what I thought until that final scene. But in that final scene you can see, or better, I "deduced" that this final battle also happened the other times, so there had been a Virus anomaly the other times. Maybe, now that I think of it, it was created each time by and from the original human anomaly (the One), as in The Matrix, but then he'd have become an anomaly (as I call it, the Virus) by himself each time too.
Why do I think that? For various reasons:
- In Reloaded you see that the Oracle can't see the future, she just remembers what the other Ones (and the rest of the rebels) did, and acts consequently. In other words, she's only playing a role, but she plays it very, very good. She knows how to talk to people in order to make them do what she wants and so, but I definitely think she can't do anything like reading the future. So, supposing this, then in Revolutions we see her telling Neo that Smith is himself, clearly (to me) refering to the end of the final battle. She's saying they're both anomalies that will eventually cancel each other. As happened.
- Another one: Smith's fear and Neo's comprehension, as they understand that they're repeating the same story, like the Architect stated to him. Neo thought he'd marked the difference by going through the left door (was it the left one?) but then he comprehends (I guess) he was there to cancel Smith so Matrix can reset and everything returns to normal, as Smith starts to fear that he's gonna lose anyway, that's why he's not convinced of his victory even when he absorbs Neo. No?
- And the final one: the dialog between the Oracle and the Architect, where you can see they both were above all this mess, monitoring and controlling everything so all happened as they prevued. The difference would be that, this time, the Oracle was the one in control of the situation, so the Architect had to give up and allow peace, as the machines in the real world had to give up too.
So, then, my question is: Supposing that the Neo-Smith, or better, One-Virus fight happened all the previous times an anomaly appeared, what did Neo do, or what did the Oracle make Neo or Smith do so Smith would become such a menace to humans and machines? My guess is that she just somehow let him go out of control trusting that Neo would eventually be able to cancel Smith. And viceversa :)
Arf. Arf.
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Mwahahaha! I'm gonna murder someone...
How do you say "sushi" in Japanese? :D
Victoria Beckham (not confirmed)
[this message was edited by Sensenic on Fri 7 Nov 05:52]
Omar292th Post
Copper Customer
"Re(2).gif) Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 08
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- Another one: Smith's fear and Neo's comprehension, as they understand that they're repeating the same story, like the Architect stated to him. Neo thought he'd marked the difference by going through the left door (was it the left one?) but then he comprehends (I guess) he was there to cancel Smith so Matrix can reset and everything returns to normal, as Smith starts to fear that he's gonna lose anyway, that's why he's not convinced of his victory even when he absorbs Neo. No?
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I think the reason Smith becomes afraid is because he has taken the "powers" of the Oracle and can "see" the future.
(It was established that when Smith takes over someone inside the Matrix he also takes their knowledge and power in the scene where he faces the Oracle)
So, at first he is very confident since he has "seen" that he beats Neo or that Neo dies. But as the fight is about to end, he realises that somehow he is going to die anyway and things will change: those who want to be free will be free and Zion and the machines will have peace.
(...until humans screw up, since apparently you can trust a machine to keep it's side of a deal.)
Of course, I could be wrong or not making any sense since I'm very very tired.
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"Nothing suits better than a dead man's shirt"
[this message was edited by Omar on Fri 7 Nov 08:15]
Juan3571th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(3)Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 08
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Thats a very good point. Specially since according to the Animatrix (second reinassance) the humans srtarted this whole mess to begin with.
Edit: It was very mean of Smith to throw the cookies on the wall!!!
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(...until humans screw up, since apparently you can trust a machine to keep it's side of a deal.)
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I am Viewtiful you scumbag!
[this message was edited by Juan on Fri 7 Nov 08:17]
Sensenic895th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
"Re(4)Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 09
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I think the reason Smith becomes afraid is because he has taken the "powers" of the Oracle and can "see" the future.
(It was established that when Smith takes over someone inside the Matrix he also takes their knowledge and power in the scene where he faces the Oracle)
So, at first he is very confident since he has "seen" that he beats Neo or that Neo dies. But as the fight is about to end, he realises that somehow he is going to die anyway and things will change (...)
Of course, I could be wrong or not making any sense since I'm very very tired.
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Hmmmm.... Yeah, sounds good. I agree with you, as long as the "Smith seeing his future" part is metaphorical and it means that he realizes he's exactly following the Oracle's plan (I know, I know, I am stubborn about my own convictions/ideas/youknowwhatImean) that ends up with their deaths.
In this case, then, there could have not been a Smith the previous times, so his presence would have been the difference (as Juan and EddyT said), and the Oracle would've just taken advantage of it to make up her plot and guide Neo to reach peace.
Boy, Ain't I picky? But yeah! Sounds really good!
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those who want to be free will be free and Zion and the machines will have peace.
(...until humans screw up, since apparently you can trust a machine to keep it's side of a deal.)
Thats a very good point. Specially since according to the Animatrix (second reinassance) the humans srtarted this whole mess to begin with.
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Couldn't agree more, even when I still haven't seen Animatrix (some of these days, some of these days...). We humans always go around screwing up things... u_u'
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Edit: It was very mean of Smith to throw the cookies on the wall!!!
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Let me guess.... you didn't like Smith throwing hte cookies on the wall, did you?
EDIT: I meant "Could have not", not "Could not have". Damn word order.
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Mwahahaha! I'm gonna murder someone...
How do you say "sushi" in Japanese? :D
Victoria Beckham (not confirmed)
[this message was edited by Sensenic on Fri 7 Nov 09:19]
Juan3572th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(5)Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 12
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Link Here
Theres 4 complete episodes of the animatrix. They have second reinassance part 1 and 2. Also watch detective story, very damn cool, but thats more of a side story.
Edit: drunk.
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Couldn't agree more, even when I still haven't seen Animatrix (some of these days, some of these days...). We humans always go around screwing up things... u_u'
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I am Viewtiful you scumbag!
[this message was edited by Juan on Fri 7 Nov 12:09]
Sensenic898th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
"Re(6)Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 12
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Link Here
Theres 4 complete episodes of the animatrix. They have second reinassance part 1 and 2. Also watch detective story, very damn cool, but thats more of a side story.
Edit: drunk.
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Viele Danke
EDIT: Sober.
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Mwahahaha! I'm gonna murder someone...
How do you say "sushi" in Japanese? :D
Victoria Beckham (not confirmed)
[this message was edited by Sensenic on Fri 7 Nov 12:39]
EddyT
215th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(7)Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 15:16
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I love talking about this movie... makes me think.
Yeah, I think Smith and Neo made the difference to save both worlds. Remember that the Frenchman was considered "The One" at one time... from what Persephone said in Reloaded when she felt the comparisons to Neo. But the Frenchman became corrupted (I don't think they explained why) and basically fell into the trap of the Matrix's temptations. It makes me wonder if the Frenchman was an actual human like Neo.
My brain hurts. :S
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Omar292th Post
Copper Customer
"Re(8)Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Fri 7 Nov 18:32
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Remember that the Frenchman was considered "The One" at one time... from what Persephone said in Reloaded when she felt the comparisons to Neo.
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I think the comparision she made was related to how passionate and in love was Neo with Trinity, and how the Frenchman used to be like him, not that he used to be an anomaly of the ecuation.
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"Nothing suits better than a dead man's shirt"
EddyT
216th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(9)Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Sat 8 Nov 00:59
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I think the comparision she made was related to how passionate and in love was Neo with Trinity, and how the Frenchman used to be like him, not that he used to be an anomaly of the ecuation.
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Really? Whoops... I thought she meant otherwise. Sorry. I gotta watch that part again... I guess I took that out of context
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NARUTO1878th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
"Re(10)Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Sat 8 Nov 04:38
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I lkied the movie, maybe it got some bad point like a "too much comercial ending" with nothing really explained but the movie was good.
The problem, doesn't come from revolution, it comes from reloaded and revolution, like many of us think.
Many detail like the twin didn't clear death, the usless Merovingian in the revolution, or the gun fight/battle balance in the 1, who slowly disappear...
IMO the movies will never turn like it, here I'll show you some exemple of how I will have make it....
1: the architec bullshit will never be this was I will have made a core to the matrix some kind of seed of overflowing data, to show a drive "hard-drive" saw the problem with a really "Program-like" point of view, not something with "Humanish" thought...
2: the matrix will have create a negative neo to handel him them she must think to smith, thing who will make a 1 vs 1 vs 1 final battle.
3: what happen to human, machine and matrix program will have been showed after smith death.
4: Smith will have evolved in a other way, for exemple after "copy and paste" him an "human being" and program I will try to swallow other data, like water, iron, wind...
5:the Matrix warrior will have the power other changing the matrix at will, for exemple, in a fight a pipe, will turn in a sword, after, a hit and them in a gun...
Of course all of those are only my thought and many of us will have changed some other thing.
I still think IMO that a 4 and 5 sequel can arise the trilogy..
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GekigangerV763th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
"Re(2)Re(10):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Sat 8 Nov 05:08
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As for comparing the final battle to Dragon Ball, if you know your anime beyond that, I'd rather compare the final battle to either X or the video game, Psychic Force which made me think of more. I thought the kung fu sequences in the abondoned building was awesome, too.
This movie kind of turned out different from what I expected but I thought it was pretty good. This triology is not as awesome and bad ass as the other man vs. machine one known as the Terminator series.
The problem was "choice." That was the problems with the other previous versions of the Matrix. The first versions of the Matrix was meant to be a perfect world, but people did not accept it as real and kept on waking up. It was the Oracle who suggested to the Architect to go along with this and re-design the Matrix to suit human civilization. If people were to have more free will, so would the programs that would watch over them such as the Agents. But as you see Agent Smith shows it. It was first demonstrated when he tried to interrogate (sp?) Morpheus in the first movie when you see him freaking out a bit. Then when he was "free" he started going out of control. Supposbly, behavior like his was what led to the re-booting of some of the previous versions of the Matrix.
Since Morpheus seemed to be freed from a previous anamoly, I'm guessing it was not that long ago that the Matrix had to be re-programmed since the anamoly of "the one" is necessary to the machines and the humans in re-starting.
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Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
Well, it's pretty interesting that Neo could still have powers outside the matrix. As long as the source exists, he'll still have something which is pretty interesting.
End of Spoiler
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Luisinan548th Post
New Red Carpet Member
"Re(3)Re(10):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Sat 8 Nov 16:02
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I liked it. I dont understand all the disappointment. There were some slow parts and everything got settled with a battle and 1 on 1 fight. I loved the film-- more then Reloaded. This one had more emotion and intensity. I really felt worried for all the characters- they were mortal, anyone could die at any moment. The human/machine battle was intense, even a little long. The biggest disappointment for me was that really only two things happened. The battle and the fight.
And after I heard that Neo didn't destroy the Matrix I guessed the ending half way through the film. It's all about balance people. The Giraffe told me that. Eastern philosophy.
As for Neo/Smith. I think Smith always had the POTENTIAL to be the anomaly, but didn't become it until he faced Neo. Neo always was the anomaly.
I'm still tricked out how Neo can do his thing in real life. And why did the machine leader have a baby face. It didn't even need a face, Neo was 'blind'! I guess it was for the viewers.
Overall, I liked it. Yeah, it didn't have anything new. Except an intense battle. Reloaded and Matrix had better, 'newer' action scenes. The Neo/Smith fight was excelent IMO though. The gun fights shoulda been better. The white kid was annoying. The Indian girl was cute. The trainmaster was nasty but fun. Too bad Frenchy didn't die but his lady was HOT with all her cleavage hanging out.
And Trin shoulda got a slightly better death scene.
Oh yeah, Persophone was HOT.
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Bored? "160"
Burning Kyo1881th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
"Re(1)TheMatrix Revolution discussion " , posted Sat 8 Nov 16:13
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I have only 1 question after watched this movie : How Smith died ?
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鮮やかな世界は音も無く静かに闇に消えて行く
Luisinan549th Post
New Red Carpet Member
"Re(2)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Sat 8 Nov 21:01
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quote:
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I have only 1 question after watched this movie : How Smith died ?
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My understanding is that Smith absorbed Neo and they cancelled each other out. I believe Neo willingly let himself be absorbed because he knew this was the only way to defeat Smith. They had become complete equals-- there couldn't have been any other way. Well, that's what I think anyway.
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Bored? "160"
Juan3573th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(4)Re(10):Matrix 3 (long post)" , posted Sat 8 Nov 21:44
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Speaking of which. Take a look at the revolutions trailer where he is talking to sinistar i mean the machine leader. They edited out the blood and scars out of his face.
Neat anti-spoiler!
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I'm still tricked out how Neo can do his thing in real life. And why did the machine leader have a baby face. It didn't even need a face, Neo was 'blind'! I guess it was for the viewers.
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I am Viewtiful you scumbag!
Ikari Loona
28th Post
Rare Customer
"Re(3)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Sat 8 Nov 22:32
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I'm not sure if what happened was:
- by having access to Neo and the whole Matrix world, the Machine Boss (or "Deus Ex Machina"?... I could swear I saw such a character name in the credits...) had now a much firmer grip on Smith once he "possessed" Neo, and thus was able to delete(?) him, maybe sacrificing Neo's life in the process, and returning all other programs to their original state, since apparently the smith clones automatically shared information and powers he adquired from different people (which would explain why he could both fly and have the Oracle's access to a much broader view in time and sapce of events in the Matrix - this assuming the Oracle can't fly, which other beings were surely capable of, considering the creatures we get to see in the 2nd and 3rd movie) - thus, if you "kill" one, the "death factor" gets to be spread around, nullifying Smith's presence in that world.
- Smith was dumb by wrapping hmself around Neo, since he was previously killed when Neo got inside him - the initiative was his this time, but the consequence was the same... he surely glowed and cracked pretty much in the same manner...
The unanswered questions that piss me off:
- how the heck did smith manage to completely possess a real human anyway - once unplugged, bane should have to "software factors" for Smith to cling to and retain his grip on him... unless the Matrix programs' hardware and software is made to somehow replicate a human brain's functioning... which would kinda explain the whole deal with "rogue programs", I guess...
The actor who played Bane did an awesome job of replicating the Smith speech pattern though.. during the movie I wondered if it was actually the same actor with a fake beard and some clever makeup techniques applied to him...
- why the heck did Smith Bane keep cutting himself?... Yes, human bodies are rather fragile, but one cut would be enough to figure that out... maybe that was a part of the destructive tendencies that threatned both the humans and machines?...
- what are the machines going to do with Neo's body?... Could it have something to do with the Architect's plans for him had he crossed the other door in Reloaded?... The "light machine-o-vision" Neo experienced during blindness does make me wonder if he's somehow part machine... that would explain the Architect's command in the 2nd movie about him being "mostly human" or something like that, and having a consisted biological base to work with would explain why all of the previous iterations of the Neo anomaly all looked the same, despite being separated by at least a century...
- what's the whole deal about Seraph's wings, apart from the fact that a seraphim is the highest in the hierarchy of angels?... I find him one of the coolest new characters to have been introduced in Reloaded, and more info on him would be appreciated...
In the end, The Oracle and the Architect probably carry on with their "good cop/bad cop" routine to keep humans under control - he provides the mathematical inflexibility of a planned control system, while she appears to be helping the humans by simply giving them some incomplete information as guidance, which is a lot more than they get from any other program.
I suppose their little conversation about the humans who which to leave is referring to the leniency they've had regarding the Zion folk who unplug humans - "we let them go, as they'd be more of a problem staying here as wildcards than they'd be in Zion, unable to affect our actions".
So maybe the Smith virus happened before too, and the events of the three movies are contantly being repeated with few variations, but it still seems more likely to me that his outbeak was a new factor, as the whole reloaded trajectory towards the Architect's room and the decision in it could have happened without Smith even existing...
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"Beat the machine that works in your head!" - Guano Apes "Open Your Eyes"
DarkZero451th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(4)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Sun 9 Nov 03:27
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They mentioned at one point in Revolutions that Smith was an attempt to counterbalance the systemic anomaly in the Matrix. In other words, once Neo killed him for the first time, he was designated as the "Anti-One", a being with equal strength to The One that could keep him from becoming completely uncontrolled. The fight between The One and his counterbalance never occurred in any of the previous generations of the Matrix because Neo's predecessors all chose to take the Architect's offer, allow Zion to be destroyed, and then allow their code to be disseminated (which I read as "dissolved"). Neo's choice in Reloaded to save Trinity instead of saving Zion was what allowed Neo to grow as The One and gain the power to control things outside of the Matrix, as well as what gave Smith enough time to absorb more and more people and gain powers like future sight (The Oracle) and weather control (the little Indian girl).
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- how the heck did smith manage to completely possess a real human anyway - once unplugged, bane should have to "software factors" for Smith to cling to and retain his grip on him... unless the Matrix programs' hardware and software is made to somehow replicate a human brain's functioning... which would kinda explain the whole deal with "rogue programs", I guess...
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I'm assuming that if human beings can have helpful programs like helicopter piloting and motorcycle hot-wiring downloaded into their brains, then they can have malicious programs downloaded into their brains, as well. But this follows the same problem that both Reloaded and Revolutions repeatedly suffered from -- they don't explain anything concretely. Just like they don't explain what happened to the previous counterbalances (who I'm guessing were the other Smiths that Smith refers to when he says "I am a Smith" in the first movie) when Neo's predecessors chose to take the Architect's offer. Obviously the counterbalance must've been neutralized somehow, because they obviously didn't replicate endlessly like Smith did and take over the Matrix, but they don't tell you how. It's just the only explanation that makes sense.
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- why the heck did Smith Bane keep cutting himself?... Yes, human bodies are rather fragile, but one cut would be enough to figure that out... maybe that was a part of the destructive tendencies that threatned both the humans and machines?...
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The most reasonable explanation I've seen is that he was testing out his new world, much like Neo was testing out the Matrix in the first movie when he used the dojo and building-jump training programs. But again, they just leave you with the only reasonable explanation, not one that's actually explained.
And personally, my only problem with the movie was the very end. It was cliche and it sucked. Every villain that absorbs people is always defeated by absorbing something that poisons it. The way Smith was defeated wasn't any different from the way Spider-Man defeated Hydro-Man in the Spider-Man animated series or how Captain Janeway defeated the Borg on Voyager. If someone's in a sci-fi/superhero/fantasy story and their special ability is absorbing stuff, they always die the same way: they absorb something, but this time they choke on it and die.
They also piled the old "arrogant villain" cliche onto Smith, which I've always hated. The arrogant villain always works the same way. He takes a hostage and then throws them away instead of killing them. He stops to chat and lets the hero catch his breath and strategize. He ties all but two of his several thousand arms behind his back and fights with a massive handicap. It's all just so old and lame. It's also out of character, because Smith has never held back before. In The Matrix, he tried to kill Trinity, killed Neo, set up a deal that killed the crew, and only held back on Morpheus because he needed the keys to Zion. In Reloaded, he used his full power on Neo, killed the keymaster, tried to kill Morpheus, and the only reason he didn't follow Neo into the Architect's room was because he couldn't open the door. But in Revolutions, he starts being lenient on hostages and fights Neo without his full power? It's totally inconsistent and out of character.
The rest of it was great, though. I loved every minute of the whole trilogy up until those last thirty minutes of the six to seven hour story. I guess now I know exactly how Star Wars fans felt when Return of the Jedi came out. Great... great... getting better... wow, that was cool... wait a second, what the fuck is an Ewok?!?!?!
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Juke Joint Jezebel2467th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(1)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Sun 9 Nov 04
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this thread is long already, so i'm gonna try to keep this short and sweet (like a midget). avoiding the storyline (and instead focusing on how the movie was compiled), there's a couple of things i noticed in this chapter that made it different than the others
1. didn't start off with an action scene
in the others, there was a beautiful introduction battle that caught the viewer's eye. this one started off pretty slow. i personally don't mind "slow" movies (i'm not a complete action whore) but imo it kinda broke the pattern they had set
2. kid that talks too much
i'm sure that little girl will turn out to be a great actress one day, but i honestly believe that children should not have roles in movies where they talk a lot. i don't think they're old enough to understand how to present to an audience that certain range of emotions. the kid just kept yammering on, like she was sagely or something. i guess it'd kinda fit her character since she was a program, but i couldn't convince myself that what she was saying was from the heart and not from a piece of paper she had memorized
3. no emotion (and/or bad dialogue)
in this movie, a lot of characters said a lot of nonsensical things or presented emotions that i just didn't buy.
i know Reeves isn't the best actor in the world, but when he was talking with the Oracle, i couldn't stop thinking about how stupid/annoying his questions/replies were. i remember whispering to myself "god, who wrote this?"
and one thing i didn't believe was that leader guy's fury (the one that was opposed to Niobe giving her ship to Neo). to me, it seemed like he was screaming just because it was fun. his words made sense but his voice was a lie.
there's several other occasions i could list about characters displaying no emotion or more downright silly dialogue, but i won't bring them up unless someone requests it
4. too many characters to follow
there were way too many characters that we were supposed to care about. like the two-man (two-woman, rather) explosives team, the 16-year-old kid, the guy who led the "Goliaths" (hehe, StarCraft term. those huge machinegun Magitek-armor things), not to mention the main characters and any other side characters i may have left out. it got a bit confusing at times and each story was too short. there just wasn't enough time for us to establish a link with the character.
if you've read this far into my post, i'm sure you can already tell that emotion is a very important element to me. i could care less about the outcome of a character if i have no emotional link with them. whether or not any of those side characters died or triumphed, my feelings towards them would have still remained the same
5. hm, Trinity's death
i can't pinpoint it but they messed it up somehow. maybe it's how they gave her that long speech after being wounded or something else, but they definitely fucked up her death. when i watched Reloaded, a few tears fell when she almost died. i had to bite my cheek and wipe my face quick before any of my friends noticed. but in Revolutions, something changed. "fucking die already," i remember thinking. i'm not sure how my emotional link with that character got cut off, but it did. kinda pisses me off; i really like Trinity so why didn't i feel anything when she died?
6. when you've reached a certain point in your power, things can get wacky
i've seen it happen in Dragon Ball and it also happened here. for those of you that have actually watched Dragon Ball (and not just Z), you can remember down-to-Earth battles that didn't just consist of flying, and charging, and other zany things. can't expect them to stick with their old style of fighting if they have these new abilities. kinda a shame. we didn't see much matrix action in this Matrix. just an ok gun scene and two dudes flying around.
a quick poke at the story .. you know, Smith probably could've defeated Neo if he wasn't so bold. 999999999999999999999999 vs 1 HE CANT STOP YOU ALL. and don't be pompous and try to absorb him. kill him. stop his mind from functioning
there's probably a couple of other things i could list but i'll just leave it at that. i've already spent at least an hour writing this. jeez, and i said i'd keep it short. sorry. although i've pointed out a lot of things i disliked in this final movie, there were a few things i thought were awesome. i loved how they portrayed the robot army. swarms and swarms and swarms of drone warriors. it's exactly as i had imagined them. and i loved the Eurotrash! onslaught's dream! and that babe that was with the Frenchie .. my god. although the ending didn't explain a damn thing, it's exactly as i had expected it. lots of people in the theater, including my friends, were pretty pissed about the ending. i was just laughing. but if it was up to me, i probably would've ended it somewhat similar. what do people want? how would they react to a flashforward X years into the future? robots and humans helping eachother out, and giving eachother highfives, and building shit together? good thing they cut the ending off there. leave the rest to our perverse imaginations
reading a lot of your opinions is pretty interesting. made a lot of sense of things i probably wouldn't have been able to figure out myself
and now, a couple of replies to a couple of quotes
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and I absolutely hate that kid
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i thought he was gonna whip out some tight skateboarding skillz on those robots. (i'm serious.) i was very disappointed
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Smith didnt have to throw the cookies on the wall. she took ALL DAMN DAY TO MAKE THEM.
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if she started making them earlier, Neo and the little girl probably would've finished them all before Smith(s) came! BLAME THE SLO-RACLE
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DarkZero
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i won't even try to quote you. but even before i hit "post," it's interesting how we share a lot of the same opinions
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And why did the machine leader have a baby face.
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lmao
i thought i was the only one. i was probably the only one in the theater laughing at that
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Persophone was HOT.
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agreed. fucking hell
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Darkworld Jazz
[this message was edited by Juke Joint Jezebel on Sun 9 Nov 05:07]
Juke Joint Jezebel2467th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(2)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Sun 9 Nov 04
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jesus i can't stop thinking about how hot Persephone was. my eyes were glued on her when she was on the screen. not just her chest and body either. that face, her eyes, those sultry fucking lips
EDIT:
i think i'll try to get my hands on one of those Reloaded posters now. screw the teasers, let's see the face. or maybe get both. yes
hey cool, sunrise
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permanent erection
[this message was edited by Juke Joint Jezebel on Sun 9 Nov 04:18]
DarkZero452th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(3)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Sun 9 Nov 05:59
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Hopefully brief addendum:
I saw a lot of bitching about something on Slashdot and it made me want to clarify something. When I said I hated the last thirty minutes or so, I didn't actually mean that. I meant the space between Trinity dying and the Oracle and Architect talking to one another. Trinity dying was okay and so was the very end of the movie. The Machine City, Deus Ex Machina, the final Neo vs. Smith fight, that horrible sci-fi cliche where all of the drones suddenly become pacified and/or dormant right as they're about to slaughter everyone, and everything else in that space was cringe-inducing, like a fifteen to twenty minute Zion rave scene.
Second, I never voiced my hatred for that scene where the Oracle explains why Neo has his powers outside of the Matrix. That was just idiotic and out of character. He asks an extremely important question, the Oracle gives him the ridiculous bullshit answer, "Because you're still connected to the Source", and instead of using his new favorite phrase, the phrase that emphasizes his newfound backbone -- "You didn't answer my question." -- he just moves on. He's angry, he feels betrayed, he doesn't trust her any more, and he probably has even less tolerance for her during that conversation than he ever had for the Architect... but any old non-answer that she can come up with is A-OK with him?
The fact that there was suddenly levity and humor in some of the movie's dialogue was jarring enough. They didn't need to make odd changes to Neo and Smith on top of it.
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Luisinan550th Post
New Red Carpet Member
"Re(4)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Sun 9 Nov 12:27
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After reading the newer post here are some replies to your thoughts.
Neo vs Smith-- did make sense.
You can't make the hero or the villain omnipotent in a story. If we did, both Neo or Smith woulda won with the flick of their wrist. That's shit storytelling. Either way, neither of them was omnipotent to begin with. I think the 1 vs 1 was appropriate for them anyway.
It's also good stoytelling for it to be a 1 vs 1 fight. Sometimes you throw out logic to make a better story. We all wanted a 1 versus 1 fight for Neo and Smith. Not another burly brawl.
Smith's character change. Dark Zero brought this up. I see it as a progression. By the third movie Smith became insane. He became a nihilst. He got more angry then usual. Remember the infamous laughing scene (I love that scene, funny but great). I think that's why he did what he did- I think Smith was becoming a little human too. That's why he wanted a 1 on 1 duel with Neo too. He had become a bit arrogant but it was also a matter of pride-- he wanted to beat Neo without the help of anyone else (or other selves). I think it was him going a bit nutty and I liked that.
I agree with DarkZero about some of the flaws that he pointed out. But I just don't think they were humongous flaws. It's a pathetic defense to say this, but I'll say it, some things are best left ambiguous so that folks can have something to talk about.
Trin's death was semi-lame. But, pff, what can you do. This movie actually got me a little teary eyed in certain parts-- even though it had some 'original Star Wars campiness (TM)' in it.
Like I said, I really felt worried and scared for the characters. And yeah, some lines and acting were a bit off. I'm not a Matrix apologist!
The ending was cheezy, but whatever!
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Bored? "160"
Sensenic899th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
"Re(5)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Mon 10 Nov 03
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A couple of points I wanted to comment: First of all I agree with JJJ about Trinity's death and the dialogues in general. The former was definitely too long, it made you think "Die already and let the movie continue!".
The latter were sooo full stereotypical, deep-and-philosophical-wannabe lines and phrases that, IMO, they wanted to be so rich that they got turned out to be really poor. Meh.
As for Smith's actions in the final battle, first lemme tell you, Darkzero, I still don't agree with the Oracle having the power of "seeing the future" (but I'll thank because I hadn't noticed the little girl having the ability to change weather This starts to look like the X-Men ), she's "only" really fuckin' intelligent. So if Smith sees his victory is because the Oracle had already "calculated" that it would end up this way, as she also calculated that he'd absorb Neo (out of pride, I completely agree with Luisinan about Smith's "evolution") and that then Neo would sacrifice himself (that'd be why she "trusted him").
But the main question here is "Why didn't all the other Smiths fight?" and the answer I give it is "Because it wasn't necessary, and smith knew it". You know, I'd keep asking myself that same question during the whole fight because I thought eventually Neo would win, but all made perfect sense when Smith turned out to be the "winner". The other, euh..., "clones" didn't fight because Smith knew beforehand, thanks to the Oracle's "power", that the "Oracle-eyed" Smith alone would be perfectly capable of winning Neo, as it was proven later.
EDIT: Former <-> Latter
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Mwahahaha! I'm gonna murder someone...
How do you say "sushi" in Japanese? :D
Victoria Beckham (not confirmed)
[this message was edited by Sensenic on Mon 10 Nov 03:50]
DarkZero455th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(5)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Mon 10 Nov 06:17
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Smith's character change. Dark Zero brought this up. I see it as a progression. By the third movie Smith became insane. He became a nihilst. He got more angry then usual. Remember the infamous laughing scene (I love that scene, funny but great). I think that's why he did what he did- I think Smith was becoming a little human too. That's why he wanted a 1 on 1 duel with Neo too. He had become a bit arrogant but it was also a matter of pride-- he wanted to beat Neo without the help of anyone else (or other selves). I think it was him going a bit nutty and I liked that.
I agree with DarkZero about some of the flaws that he pointed out. But I just don't think they were humongous flaws. It's a pathetic defense to say this, but I'll say it, some things are best left ambiguous so that folks can have something to talk about.
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I'll accept that Smith fighting with massive handicaps was just a progression of the sort of insanity that he showed in the first movie during the infamous "It's the smell!" speech, as well as the Oracle's influence upon him (which Sensenic mentioned), even though that goes back to the whole Hydro-Man/Parasite/Borg Queen cliche that I still think is ridiculous. But "some things are best left ambiguous" is, indeed, a pathetic defense. I don't mind some things being left ambiguous, like where Neo went at the end, what Neo actually was (some characters seem to refer to him as a program or some sort of man-machine hybrid, even though he seems like a flesh-and-blood human being), who/what the other incarnations of Neo and Smith were, how much control the Oracle and the Architect actually had over everything, etc. But there are some parts where there was no room for ambiguity. The quick explanation of Smith as a counter-anomaly that always appears to balance out The One doesn't make anything ambiguous. It just shoves a big plot hole into everything that the Architect explained. The same goes for Neo's uninterested reaction to what the Oracle says about the powers he has outside of the Matrix. The answer itself might've made things sort of ambiguous, but it really just makes the writing really inconsistent because Neo isn't the sort of character that accepts those answers any more.
And you're right, they're not humongous flaws. They're just little plot holes and inconsistencies that don't need to be there and shouldn't just be brushed off as some sort of brilliant counterculture ambiguity on the part of the Wachowskis. They're errors and I guess I'm preying upon them mostly because they're being widely touted as some sort of brilliant and inspired move on the writers' part. Plot errors are a minor annoyance until someone tries to pretend that they're something intentional, brilliant, or even just excusable. They are not. They're foolish mistakes on the part of the writers.
And you can't tell me that the whole Borg Queen thing wasn't a humongous flaw. When you watch a movie that uses the same lame science fiction cliche that Star Trek: Voyager based an episode off of, you know that there are better ways that your time could be spent. Like eating paint chips. Or watching the absolute worst episode of Spider-Man: The Animated Series in the show's entire multi-year run just to see how incredibly common this cliche is.
Hydro-Man: Worst. Spidey. Villain. Ever.
Even. Worse. Than. Shocker.
Sensenic:
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A couple of points I wanted to comment: First of all I agree with JJJ about Trinity's death and the dialogues in general. The former was definitely too long, it made you think "Die already and let the movie continue!".
The latter were sooo full stereotypical, deep-and-philosophical-wannabe lines and phrases that, IMO, they wanted to be so rich that they got turned out to be really poor. Meh.
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I've actually seen this reaction to Revolutions repeated pretty often and while I definitely understand it, it still mystifies me in a way. I wasn't bothered by the quasi-philosophical lines from Neo, Smith, the Oracle, or the Merovingian so much as the cliche action hero dialogue and one-liners from Neo and the humans in the Zion. "Because I choose to" really made me cringe, because the thing I liked about Neo was that he was completely unlike any other action hero. No one liners, no overt macho jackassery... just a nice, polite, understated kind of guy that only taunted his opponents through stances and hand movements. Again, it seemed like some of the writing went really out of character, or at least "evolved" or "grew" from really non-standard situations and dialogue to some truly cliche sci-fi action movie crap. Neo started out as a quiet, polite sort of hero with Smith, a very restrained but malevolent individual, as his enemy, but by the end it was the standard one liner spewing hero vs. the arrogant-to-a-fault super evil villain.
And I don't think anybody enjoyed all the one liners and cheap war movie dialogue from Lock, Mifune, and The Kid. The war scenes as a whole were great, but the dialogue and characters were easily the weakest part of it. The infantry babes were cool, though. They were pretty cliche too, but at least they didn't complete the cliche by hamming it up with melodramatic war movie dialogue.
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As for Smith's actions in the final battle, first lemme tell you, Darkzero, I still don't agree with the Oracle having the power of "seeing the future" (but I'll thank because I hadn't noticed the little girl having the ability to change weather This starts to look like the X-Men ), she's "only" really fuckin' intelligent. So if Smith sees his victory is because the Oracle had already "calculated" that it would end up this way, as she also calculated that he'd absorb Neo (out of pride, I completely agree with Luisinan about Smith's "evolution") and that then Neo would sacrifice himself (that'd be why she "trusted him").
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Yes, yes, she doesn't really "see the future", she has a kind of foreknowledge by knowing most of the variables of the Matrix and calculating the future outcomes of them with her immense intellect... six of one, half dozen of another. Regardless of the mechanic behind it, she has knowledge of the future and it's an ability that she passed on to Smith. That still goes back to Hydro-Man and the Borg Queen, though.
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Luisinan552th Post
New Red Carpet Member
"Re(6)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Mon 10 Nov 08:07
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Hrm. I'll only argue on the Neo/Smith fight. The other points I agree or just agree to disagree.
Anyway, how would you have ended the trilogy DarkZero? The Matrix borrows a ton of conventions and ideas from many other films and genres. We didn't know it in Matrix 1, but Smith and Neo were meant to be opposites- nemesis. So, when it came to the final battle, it would be them two- one on one.
I still hold the notion that Smith's decision to fight Neo alone was acceptable because:
(a) he was insane (damn, I love that laughing scene)
(b) he was acting vain (gotta defeat Neo alone)
(c) it was the best option for Smith (one on one, all his powered focused on one body)
(d) it was the best option for the story (c'mon, it's better then burly brawl x 1000)
Yeah, I think Smith did fall a little in the 'arrogant villain complex'. But I don't think it was a cop out on the behalf of the writers because they had written themselves into a corner. I believe the W-brothers wanted that 1 on 1 fight, and I believe everything in the three films led up to that fight.
A side note. Writing about this makes really see how Smith and Neo really mirror each other in opposite ways. In the first movie Neo was the confused newbie while Smith was the cool, collected veteran. By the end, Neo is in total control and Smith is just losing it cause he's power drunk. And then you have the blatant symbolism where Neo is "the One" and Smith is "the Many". Hrm. Are the W-Brothers anti-Socialists or what!
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Bored? "160"
ONSLAUGHT2453th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Revoultions sucked so much ass" , posted Mon 10 Nov 13:22
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when i watched Reloaded, a few tears fell when she almost died. i had to bite my cheek and wipe my face quick before any of my friends noticed.
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Haha, you're gay!
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and i loved the Eurotrash! onslaught's dream!
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Stop messing with my dreams you bastard!
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Juan3576th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"euro" , posted Mon 10 Nov 13:33
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Thats funny. When I saw the gimp that got matrix kicked by Trinity, it reminded me of Onslaught.
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and i loved the Eurotrash! onslaught's dream!
Stop messing with my dreams you bastard!
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I am Viewtiful you scumbag!
ONSLAUGHT2454th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Bond Age" , posted Mon 10 Nov 13:51
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Thats funny. When I saw the gimp that got matrix kicked by Trinity, it reminded me of Onslaught.
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Is he really called Eurotrash? or is it just nonsense coming from JJJ?
I think the Güachobsqui broders ripped off my idea
So sad =(
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Juke Joint Jezebel2472th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(1):Bond Age" , posted Mon 10 Nov 13:53
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Is he really called Eurotrash?
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nah he's not Eurotrash. i was referring to the people in Frenchie's club
we just call him "onslaught's dream"
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Darkworld Jazz
ONSLAUGHT2455th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Bond Age Revolutions" , posted Mon 10 Nov 13:55
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we just call him "onslaught's dream"
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Why are you so mean? =(
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Gen2167th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(1):Matrix 3: Electric Boogaloo" , posted Mon 10 Nov 17
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The end of the movie was as clear as the day is long if you're familiar with eastern myth and religious symbolism.
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I feel like I got the movie without thinking about eastern myth / religious symbolism. Some stuff like the power of the human mind and a savior you'd have to get for the movie... However I don't think this movie is especially deep. I don't care that much, but if you'd like to please share what outside knowledge would enhase "getting" the movie?
sabo10
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gaygayx
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hey that name looks kinda cool, "gaygayx" well it reminds me of Xexex or Xexyz
NARUTO
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BTW, this is just a question but in an interview, the actors who have played the 2 twins in reloaded, say that they aren't in the revolution. so far nothing great..
BUT! they say that they will think for the 4 and 5...so what is it? an hoax? a misunderstood? or truht?
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Keanu and Laurence have said that they're done with the serries. I'm sure the studio will make more unless the directors hava a controlling interest and opt to put the franchise to rest.
Sensenic
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About the plot, one question: I think I overall understand it (atleastmoreorlessorperhapsorwhatever) but there's this one thing I just can't figure out. What the hell did Neo or Smith do.... or better, what the hell did the Oracle have them to do that was different from all the previous times, so Neo could negotiate peace with the machines? According to Smith's last lines, all that fighting has happened with all their previous versions, so... what has been the difference this time so the machines (and the Architect) had to accept Neo's (and the Oracle's) terms? Maybe she let Smith take over too much this time? Hmmm.... just can't figure it out.
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The Oracle just provided guidance same as always I'm guessing. The Oracle made a choice to side with Neo that made her appearance change, but I assumed that was just so they could recast the actor. One difference may have been Neo's decision in the 2nd movie to walk through the door way unexpected by the Archetect. Smith was apparently victorious the times before. This "One" apparently changed Smith like Juan was saying. Smith grew out of the programs' control. Neo was able to reach the machine city, the "source" to talk to the giant mulitple bug head. So Neo and the programs agreed that there would be peace if Neo stopped Smith. We don't know exactly what happened to the other Ones other than the fact that there are people still in the Matrix. The difference this time apparently is just that this One, Neo, made a few different decisions and mainly was able to enter an agreement with the machines to stop the out of control Smith. The machines follow through on keeping peace is simpally there because they're keeping their word.
Sensenic
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I used to think that too. Since the end of Reloaded and almost during the whole movie, but when Smith has started to remember... when Neo has understood it was unavoidable (I guess because he remembered too)... then I've started to think this was in the Architect's plans too. He said they did all that to solve certain anomalies that appeared from time to time, so I guessed he was refering to both the One and the Virus (the Oracle, who's the mastermind behind all this, also tells Neo Smith is him). They'd be a simultanious anomaly that appears in both sides, humans and programs.
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I think some of the things relating to the One were added to the Archtect's Matrix plan in order to maintain better control, but I don't think Smith going out of control or Neo succeeding in getting peace were part of his plan. These are things the Archect's plan would try to avoid.
I remember her saying that Smith is the negative version of Neo. I didn't catch that the One phenomina occured both in humans and machines but maybe that's in there. Some of this stuff in the movie I think they just hodgepodge make up as they go along.
Juan
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I tought Neo was the only anomaly. I DONT KNOW MAYBE SOMEONE ELSE DOES.
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I think the human One was the only major anomaly, at least originally. If Smith became such an "anomaly" it's because Neo made him that way.
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Smith didnt have to throw the cookies on the wall. she took ALL DAMN DAY TO MAKE THEM.
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heh some people were giggling at that part in the theater. They also giggled when that one ship captain got all pissed off and at a few other such parts.
EddyT
hmm yeah I guess that is right.
Sensenic
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- In Reloaded you see that the Oracle can't see the future, she just remembers what the other Ones (and the rest of the rebels) did, and acts consequently.
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That's interesting. I didn't catch that she has no predictive ability, I'm sure she can remember previous versions of the Matrix like that but I thought she was a program designed to predict things too.
That doesn't mean she can predict everything perfectly, just probably better than anyone else. There was a line about how she didn't know something at one point but she believed, right?
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- Another one: Smith's fear and Neo's comprehension, as they understand that they're repeating the same story, like the Architect stated to him. Neo thought he'd marked the difference by going through the left door (was it the left one?) but then he comprehends (I guess) he was there to cancel Smith so Matrix can reset and everything returns to normal, as Smith starts to fear that he's gonna lose anyway, that's why he's not convinced of his victory even when he absorbs Neo. No?
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Yes Smith is afraid it didn't work, and it didn't.
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- And the final one: the dialog between the Oracle and the Architect, where you can see they both were above all this mess, monitoring and controlling everything so all happened as they prevued. The difference would be that, this time, the Oracle was the one in control of the situation, so the Architect had to give up and allow peace, as the machines in the real world had to give up too.
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The archetect seems to be oversith for the Matrix in addition to designer. Oracle manipulated things but I don't think she controlls things especially or was persuing a selfish personal agenda, I think she really wanted to help humans. The Archetect wasn't happy about peace and probably about loosing a large chunk of their power supply but he obviously didn't have enough controll to stop it. However he's not exactly miserable or depressed about it either, it's not the end of the world. I think it's more than just a game between the two players the Oracle and the Archetect. In which everyone else are just board pieces. The Archetect was just doing his job and the Oracle kindly decided to help humans. Apparently in all previous times the Archetect was able to maintain the Matrix save for reseting it several times, but reseting it probably wasn't super terrible for the Archetect and his resources. This time the Oracle's side won.
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So, then, my question is: Supposing that the Neo-Smith, or better, One-Virus fight happened all the previous times an anomaly appeared, what did Neo do, or what did the Oracle make Neo or Smith do so Smith would become such a menace to humans and machines? My guess is that she just somehow let him go out of control trusting that Neo would eventually be able to cancel Smith. And viceversa :)
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I think the Oracle just provide's guidance and this one's on Neo. In the end of the first movie they blew up Smith. I think it was an after the fact decision to bring Smith back because the actor was cool in the role / it was a striking character for the audiance etc.. So Neo either advertantly or inadvertantly cause a strange change in Smith when he appeared to try to destroy him but actually was "hacking" him (perhaps when he jumped inside it) to make changes for the future, or tried to destoy him but accidently changed the program rather than completely destroying it. I didn't see the movie explain Neo's intent or actions in this. Only Smith had said that Neo changed him and took away his purpose.
Omar
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think the reason Smith becomes afraid is because he has taken the "powers" of the Oracle and can "see" the future.
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that could be so. Didn't Smith say to Neo, before Smith had taken over the Oracle, that he had came after the other Ones previous to meeting Neo though?
GekigangerV
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Since Morpheus seemed to be freed from a previous anamoly, I'm guessing it was not that long ago that the Matrix had to be re-programmed since the anamoly of "the one" is necessary to the machines and the humans in re-starting.
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I think Morpheous would have been freed by other freed regular humans.
Burning Kyo
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I have only 1 question after watched this movie : How Smith died ?
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Neo allowed himself to be defeated by Smith in order to be in a position where Smith could be stopped. In the movie they said that programs that didn't have a purpose were deleted. My friend said that Neo being killed by Smith fulfilled Smith's purpose of killing Neo and thus Smith ceased to exist. I disagree for the following reasons. 1 The little girl program didn't have a purpose but wasn't deleted. 2 Smith said he didn't have a purpose after Neo separated him from the main controll or whatever but he didn't get delted, and then he may have picked a new purpose only afterword of destroying Neo. 3 The Oracle, a program absorbed by Smith, was returned to normal after Smith was defeated. So thus Neo wasn't necessarily killed when absorbed by Smith and thus Smith wouldn't necessarily have fullfilled the purpose of killing Neo.
Ikari Leona
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- by having access to Neo and the whole Matrix world, the Machine Boss (or "Deus Ex Machina"?... I could swear I saw such a character name in the credits...) had now a much firmer grip on Smith once he "possessed" Neo, and thus was able to delete
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Maybe however my opinion is that Neo did it himself.
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how the heck did smith manage to completely possess a real human anyway - once unplugged, bane should have to "software factors"
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I could come up with an answer that is somewhat technobable. Sense the Matrix with billions of human minds/nervous systems/bodies/whatever pluged into it allows humans to interact and their are programs in the matrix apparently as complicated as humans, and humans are able to go in and out of the matrix, and Smith is able to take over other people in the Matrix, it's not that much of a stretch that he could take over someone who was then removed from the link to the matrix and still have the Smith copy controlling the body even outside of the matrix.
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- why the heck did Smith Bane keep cutting himself?... Yes, human bodies are rather fragile, but one cut would be enough to figure that out... maybe that was a part of the destructive tendencies that threatned both the humans and machines?...
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I don't think that part was in the movie? Perhaps the human realized that Smith was in his head and tried to kill himself to stop Smith, but Smith was able to take over before that. Perhaps Smith tried cutting the body for some evil reason like to see what it was like.
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- what are the machines going to do with Neo's body?... Could it have something to do with the Architect's plans for him had he crossed the other door in Reloaded?... The "light machine-o-vision" Neo experienced during blindness does make me wonder if he's somehow part machine... that would explain the Architect's command in the 2nd movie about him being "mostly human" or something like that, and having a consisted biological base to work with would explain why all of the previous iterations of the Neo anomaly all looked the same, despite being separated by at least a century...
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Assuming he's dead they are either going to dump him, recycle him, leave him there, leave him there for the humans to pick up, or return him to the humans. Sense they are at piece it would seem that they'd return the them to the humans.
I think Neo being the One leads to him being able to visualize the machine's energy.
I think the only unhuman thing about Neo is the connections to the Matrix that all the people attached to it have had.
I'm not sure if those video screens in the Archetect's crib were meant to be exact videos of the previous Ones or perhpase things previous Ones have said but with Neo's face, or perhaps predictions of what Neo would say. I think they were guesses of what Neo would say.
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what's the whole deal about Seraph's wings, apart from the fact that a seraphim is the highest in the hierarchy of angels?... I find him one of the coolest new characters to have been introduced in Reloaded, and more info on him would be appreciated
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His wings?
DarkZero
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But this follows the same problem that both Reloaded and Revolutions repeatedly suffered from -- they don't explain anything concretely
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That's true they don't explain a number of things, and probably overexplain a few others.
well I've read like 3/5ths of the thread time for a break. food...
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[this message was edited by Gen on Mon 10 Nov 17:26]
Gen2168th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(2)TheMatrix Revolution discussion" , posted Mon 10 Nov 18
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5. hm, Trinity's death
i can't pinpoint it but they messed it up somehow. maybe it's how they gave her that long speech after being wounded or something else, but they definitely fucked up her death. when i watched Reloaded, a few tears fell when she almost died. i had to bite my cheek and wipe my face quick before any of my friends noticed. but in Revolutions, something changed. "fucking die already," i remember thinking. i'm not sure how my emotional link with that character got cut off, but it did. kinda pisses me off; i really like Trinity so why didn't i feel anything when she died?
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yeah, I didn't like that seen either. She could have not died and the story been better. It was a little too drawn out.
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and now, a couple of replies to a couple of quotes
and I absolutely hate that kid
i thought he was gonna whip out some tight skateboarding skillz on those robots. (i'm serious.) i was very disappointed
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I think you guys don't like him because he looks like a Limp Bizkiteer. I'm not fond of the type.
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And why did the machine leader have a baby face.
lmao
i thought i was the only one. i was probably the only one in the theater laughing at that
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I didn't even notice that it looked like a baby it was too garbled.
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Persophone was HOT.
agreed. fucking hell
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Luisinan
Smith fights Neo one on one because he believes he has foreknowledge of the outcome of the fight being his victory. So thus the other hims / other ones of him can just watch.
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[this message was edited by Gen on Mon 10 Nov 18:38]
Very accurate movie summary
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"OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion thread" 
"Re(2):OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion" 
"Re(3):OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion" 
Not a Monkey Told you That
"Re(1):OT(!?):TheMatrix Revolution discussion " 
"Re(1):I can't believe Neo had to kill Trinity" 
