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| snkneoshingo2k3
12th Post
 
New Customer
|  "Re(1):KOF 2003 thread, part II"
, posted Fri 31 Oct 13:37
quote:
As Rugal wisely suggested, let's leave the old KOF2003 thread, it was geting slow, even for cable users.
Last Blade 2 Team!!! (Hey, they could travel in time with the Dragon powers, or some stupid excuse like that...)
Hello,I'm back.First things first;finally,we get our first tiny,but appetizing,peek at The King Of Fighters 2003.But,it's shocking that 2 days before the latest Arcadia magazine was released,we already knew what it had about KOF 2003, and it turned out just as Iggy told me;nothing but special exclusive news.Ergo,just as Rugal Bernstein mentioned,SNK Playmore should give us the lowdown on the participants of the 10th KOF starting from next Thursday.On another note,remember the personal request I have done to TRIEU on the Snk-Capcom forums about info on KOF 2003 two weeks ago? Well,I've decided to kick myself out of the forums,but not because TRIEU didn't answer(I don't blame him,seeing how busy he is,especially because of his professional ties with SNK Playmore),but because no one responded at all.And the same thing happened when I thanked them for bringing my SNK Playmore summary to the forums;not even a "You're welcome!".Thank God I've got the best home a true 2D fighting game fanatic can get.See you later,dudes!
You can't be finished!
Stand up you simp!
RyuSVC Chaos:SNK Vs.Capcom
SNK Playmore2003 2D Forever!
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| Time Mage 1675th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
 
    
    
    
   
| "Re(2):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Fri 31 Oct 15:02
quote:
On another note,remember the personal request I have done to TRIEU on the Snk-Capcom forums about info on KOF 2003 two weeks ago? Well,I've decided to kick myself out of the forums,but not because TRIEU didn't answer(I don't blame him,seeing how busy he is,especially because of his professional ties with SNK Playmore),but because no one responded at all.And the same thing happened when I thanked them for bringing my SNK Playmore summary to the forums;not even a "You're welcome!".Thank God I've got the best home a true 2D fighting game fanatic can get.See you later,dudes!
One little, tiny advice: Don't expect in the internet, nor in real life to be thanked for whatever you do, or to always be replied and all. Y'know, sometimes, not much can be added to what you've posted, and other times people just won't care. Also, don't expect that all your questions will be responded, because some people just don't care if a "newbie" asks for something, or simply they don't know or they can't reply.
You can post other things, read the forums (posting is not a necessity), or simply get known by giving your opinion here and there, or make funny, non-offensive jokes (this is more difficult). Instant popularity is difficult to gain, and (in my opinion) not very good. I myself prefer to be slowly known, and contribute in whatever I can, without having to be "The news machine". And lastly, have fun.
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| talbaineric 5515th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
   
| "Re(3):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Fri 31 Oct 19:01
quote:
On another note,remember the personal request I have done to TRIEU on the Snk-Capcom forums about info on KOF 2003 two weeks ago? Well,I've decided to kick myself out of the forums,but not because TRIEU didn't answer(I don't blame him,seeing how busy he is,especially because of his professional ties with SNK Playmore),but because no one responded at all.And the same thing happened when I thanked them for bringing my SNK Playmore summary to the forums;not even a "You're welcome!".Thank God I've got the best home a true 2D fighting game fanatic can get.See you later,dudes!
One little, tiny advice: Don't expect in the internet, nor in real life to be thanked for whatever you do, or to always be replied and all. Y'know, sometimes, not much can be added to what you've posted, and other times people just won't care. Also, don't expect that all your questions will be responded, because some people just don't care if a "newbie" asks for something, or simply they don't know or they can't reply.
You can post other things, read the forums (posting is not a necessity), or simply get known by giving your opinion here and there, or make funny, non-offensive jokes (this is more difficult). Instant popularity is difficult to gain, and (in my opinion) not very good. I myself prefer to be slowly known, and contribute in whatever I can, without having to be "The news machine". And lastly, have fun.
Heh. Yeah. The internet tends to suck that way. :p
I'm hyped at the prospect of The Griffon being there. And it seems a mix of illustrators are on KOF 2k3(Terry and Griffon didn't look like Falcoon's work to me)
I bet November will bring a whole bunch of KOF 2k3 news.
TALBAINANDCAMMY.COM! Celebrating 3 years of T&C Fanship.
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| Izek
101th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(6):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Fri 31 Oct 21:28
quote:
It was at a coffee shop along a street. Terry Bogard was nowhere to be seen.
Two strong-looking guys were sitting outside the coffee chop. One was a kickboxer while the other was a professional wrestler. They were Joe Higashi and Griffon Mask respectively.
Joe: "...Don't just sit there. Try the tea!"
Griffon: "No."
Joe: "Then at least take that bird mask off."
Griffon: "This isn't a bird! It's the mask of a griffon!
Joe: "Hey, I don't care okay!! Just take it off!! Your stupid mask is making me look stupid too!"
Griffon: "Hmph. It's a hero's responsibility to be noticed by others."
Joe: (Terry, Andy, where are you guys? I need help here... *faint*)
Of course, Joe has always loved receiving attention. However, this kind of attention was more
like being part of a freak show than the typical attention he would expect from his fans.
Kid: "Wow!! Griffon Mask!! Can I have your autograph please?"
Griffon: "Haha! Sure."
The satisfied kid then noticed Joe after he had gotten Griffon's autograph.
Kid: "Hey... Um, can I have your autograph too? You are the GREAT NINJA MINAMI, right? Didn't
you lose to Griffon Mask in the last title match? I heard you've become his servant..."
Joe (interrupting the kid): "Hey kid, listen to me very carefully..."
Kid: "Ye... yeah?"
Joe: "I'm the great one that..."
Terry: "Hey, so you're the GREAT NINJA MINAMI! ...Heh, sorry I'm late."
Joe: "Ack! Terry! You're late! Don't do this to me ever again!"
The ever charismatic (and tough) Terry was standing at the entrance of the coffee shop.
Terry: "Hey kid, be sure to address him as "Mister" next time, or else he might turn you into a frog with his ninja skills!"
Kid (scared): "OK... I got it!"
Terry: "You've got their signatures, right? I need to talk with them about something important. Go play over there."
Kid: "Okay."
Joe, who had just become a 'powerful ninja' was getting very annoyed. He then ordered aligator steak (which really confused the waiter) while Terry simply ordered a cup of coffee.
Terry: "Take it easy, Mr. Minami..."
Joe: "You're good at handling kids. I'm kinda jealous."
Griffon: "You just don't know how to love 'em."
Joe: "Mind your own business... Hey, where's Andy? He's going to be in this year's KOF too, right?"
Terry shrugged.
Joe: "Hey hey, what's with that? ...So Mr. Bird Mask here will become Andy's substitute?"
Griffon: "It's not a bird. I'm Griffon Mask."
Terry sipped his coffee.
Terry: "Yep. Remember Andy's young apprentice?"
Joe: "Apprentice? Oh, that something something-maru kid."
Terry: "He got sick."
Joe: "......"
Terry: "Hokotomaru's illness wasn't life-threatening but to Andy, it was a far more complicated
matter. As a result, Andy didn't want to leave Japan."
Joe: "Dang. For being a Sensei (teacher), he's gotten too soft."
Terry: "Don't talk like that. You wouldn't believe how hard Andy pushes him. Japanese people call that... er... was it "Koshi-Kondo" or something?"
Griffon: "Koshi-kondou. A word that describes the beautiful relationship between the master and his apprentice. Your brother must be a great person."
Terry and Griffon then shook each other's hands politely.
Joe: "Heh heh. Let's become good friends then. Wanna learn more nice Japanese words? 'Atchi ike kono bus~!!' (meaning 'Get lost bitch!') Try that heh."
Griffon: "Heh, 'atchi ike kono bus'? What does that mean? Anyway, I heard the organiser for this year's KOF is a Japanese. I'll remember those words you just said when he announces the champion."
Joe: "Hehehe... I'll also remember to teach you more beautiful phrases from the Japanese language later."
Terry finished up his coffee and began talking again.
Terry: "All right, then it's all settled. The three of us are going to be in the same team this year. So let's do our best!!"
Joe: "I'll be fine as long as that bird doesn't do anything funny."
Griffon (ignoring Joe): "I'll be fine too, as long as I can fight fair and square."
Terry: "OK! It'll all be good. I'll be going to visit my dad's grave."
Joe: "Hm? You're going to pay him a visit now?"
Terry: "Yes. This is very important for me. I always do that before I go to a tournament. Sorry to trouble you, but can you guys wait for me?"
Joe: "Are you kidding me?! Don't leave me alone with this bird here! I wanna go too."
Griffon: "I'm not a bird... I'm Griffon Mask."
Joe: "Shut up! 'Bird Man' is more suitable for you!! Bird man, bird man, bird man, bird man~"
Griffon: "That's GRIFFON MASK alright!!!!"
Terry simply looked up at the sky.
Terry: (Dad... How should we go about it this year?)
Joe: "Shut it, bird man! I oughta pluck and eat you raw!"
Griffon: "You should go clean up your ears. My name is Griffon Mask!!"
Courtesy of: Kofonline.
Guess Andy ain't in there for sure.
Would anyone mind having less characters? I mean that would imply that they would have more frames and everything. But would you settle for about 20 with a good framerate instead of 40 with the current framerate?
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| Luisinan 534th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(7):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Fri 31 Oct 21:55
quote:
Would anyone mind having less characters? I mean that would imply that they would have more frames and everything. But would you settle for about 20 with a good framerate instead of 40 with the current framerate?
Woah, if you cut 20 characters and use that extra space for more animation for the remaining 20, your gonna have some high quality animation. But that's not a good solution, here's why:
KOF actually has very good animation. Better animation then SFA3 actually. Maybe even better sprite animation then the Marvel games. The problem with KOF though is two-fold. The hardware is old and the animation style isn't flashy.
I love the KOF sprite style. I love the 'realistic' approach to KOF designs and to their sprites. I'm tired of the anime Alpha, Marvel and Guilty Gear style. I love the KOF style. The problem here is that, this style just isn't very popular. The characters look too thin, too flat, and sometimes colorless-- and that makes them look cheap, dated and boring to some people. So adding more animation ain't gonna help one bit. What SNKP needs to do is use large sprites, They don't even need to be high res, but at least the size of SF3 sprites, with the 64-color pallete per sprite that the CPS3 can do.
But that's the problem, KOF can't get larger sprites because of the hardware limitations. Even if they made larger sprites, they'd seriously have to cut back in the animation. So it's a catch-22. Make larger sprites, that's great, but now your animation sucks.
The solution? There isn't a solution because SNKP is still using the Neo Geo. If they really start using the Atomiswave and they make new sprites from scratch, well, then we can talk about getting larger, 64-color per sprite, SF3 fluid animation.
I firmly believe that SNKP can put out SF3 fluid animation, they're just grounded by the hardware. Like I said, KOF has fluid animation, just go download any good KOF sprites- they're very detailed and fluid. They're just small, color-limited, and a bit washed out. All problems associated with the hardware IMO.
A neat solution that I don't think many have thought of, is to take the PS2/Sony backwards compatibility approach. Why doesn't SNKP release new hardware that is as strong as Naomi board, but completely backwards compatible with the old Neo Geo carts. That way you get the best of both worlds. Ha? Hum? Made you look. Now, at least we're getting an Atomiswave and PS2 KOF. A new Garou team. Things are looking up.
Damnit. Like I've been saying, Playmore isn't f-ing around. Playmore isn't SNK. Playmore is what SNK should have been. The old SNK had the talent up the wazoo. They just didn't have the business savy that Playmore has.
You gotta praise SNKP for fighting like a lone wolf with a Kusanagi flame.
Bored? "160"
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| DarkZero 437th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(8):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Fri 31 Oct 22:24
Luisinan, all we're looking for is KOF animation that is of the same quality as Mark of the Wolves or Last Blade 2. That's not impossible on the MVS hardware, because, y'know... MotW and LB2 are MVS games. I'm not entirely sure if it's a matter of hardware limitations with that many characters or simply the fact that updating KOF's huge roster for an MVS game is financially idiotic for SNKP, but either way, they could definitely reach MotW-level animation with fewer characters. We'd just like to get the animation to the point where it looks reasonable, but KOF really has the worst animation and color palette of any game I've played in years. It's obviously not just because of the hardware, but also the roster.
Hopefully SNKP will be brave enough with KOF2k3 to repeat what they did in '99 and cut out some extraneous characters. Chizuru, Vice, Mature, Billy, and Yamazaki were all popular characters, but they cut them out and trimmed down the roster. Hopefully this year they'll be willing to do the same to Seth, Ramon, Hinako, Maxima, Whip, Bao, and perhaps even Lin or Vanessa without adding in an equal number of characters. Hopefully the move to 3-on-3 will help as well, because some of the teams were just becoming needlessly bloated.
And here's hoping for a Kim-Jhun-May Lee Korean team. I never want to see Chang or Choi ever again.
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| Satoshi_Miwa 2407th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(10):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Fri 31 Oct 22:45
quote:
No, if anything, they need to cut the more staple characters. But then, they'll never have the balls to get rid of Kyo or Iori.
Remember, nobody ever thought they'd axe King.
Billy is like the Ross Perot of KOF. Can't decide whether to stay in or stay out.
And look at the feedback axing King got them for 2002. Although that may have been more becuase of the dream match nature of the game than anything else.
I'm hoping they get rather bold with the roster shake up, and have more than 40% of the roster as new characters. It's a new story, so some shake up would be good. And while I'd miss some of the characters, they can always be put a souped up Dream Match on the Atomiswave down the road with their Sammy deal...
And a less than bold prediction! Marco will be on the Art of Fighting team, probably replacing Takuma. Which would be...groovy cool....
Separated at Birth?
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| iggy 1962th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(4):Re(10):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sat 1 Nov 01:25:
quote:
;_;
I really like terry.
AND JOE.
JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOE!!!!!!!!!
Hmm, well, the problem with cutting character for more frames is that it won't work with kof. Why? because kof, like ALL the crossover games is a character game (well, a キャラゲ-), which means that the roster is much more important than the system. Look at the proportion of female characters. The mere fact of saying KOF 2002 would have only 1/3 of the cast of female character started riots on 2ch. Erase King? Angry fanboys shout. Popularity is everything. Erase Chang and Choi? Angry fanboys will shout as well. (I'm very surprised so few people are concerned by the departure of Andy, I thought he was more popular than that). I'm sure SvC Chaos would not have been so bashed from the beginning if the 8 hidden characters had been playable from the start, let alone Athena and RA ; and actually, their presence did brought many people back to the game, regardless of his flaws system-wise.
Then, look at KOF 99 : OK, the system was crappy, but they erased Vice, Mature, CYS or Chizuru to put in characters who only began to be interesting the next year ('99 Whip? Ha!) and most of the complains I've heard were about the roster, not the system. (and on a side note, they should have killed Iori and Leona if they wanted to be coherent with the story. But their popularity was so huge they couldn't erase them, even with their new scenario stuff. Unfortunately, Shermie never went farther then the 5th place of the popularity rankings, and it didn't work for her). But I barely heard anyone complaining about the presence of Iori and Leona. Popular characters returning, even if they are seemingly deads in the scenario, are OK. Popular characters who die and stay dead are not.
Basically, what I'm saying is : new sprites, more animation, etc : keep them for a new game like MOTW. KOF is about characters. A kof with less than 30 characters will fail miserably. (Think to SS0 : the people who complained about the 7 years old graphics made as much (as few?) noise then the ones who complained about the absence of a specific character. And when you speak missing characters in SS0, you say Gen An, Nicotine, Sieger, Wan fu... except Cham cham, it's a freak show. In other words, the complains about the outdated graphics were surprisingly rares. If they had erased not very interesting characters to have everything redrawn nicely, they woud have been placated. I'm not talking only about female characters like Charlotte or drama queens like Basara ; even Gaira is more popular than I would have ever thought.)
Sorry if I don't make a lot of sense, I just wake up, I have nothing to eat and it's too cold out there to go buy food.
...
Gnaaaaah.
立派すぎるのも、観念するのですよ。
[this message was edited by iggy on Sat 1 Nov 01:31] |
| beto
23th Post
New Customer
| "Re(9):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sat 1 Nov 11:41
quote:
I'd rather see radical gameplay changes on them (99-00 Robert anyone?)
I agree. The new Robert was fantastic. But people whined and they changed him back.
And about removing characters, i don't see what's the big deal. Do people play games because of characters or gameplay?
My favorite character in any game is King. But the fact she was not in 2K2 didn't bother me one bit. I just put someone else in her place. It made Angel part of my team.
People are too caught up in the old characters. Making Kyo and Iori secret was genious, IMO. But then they came back when people whined.
I think they should only keep the people that make sense in the plot (Kensou, Long, Lin...). Changing everybody is not possible because it wouldn't be a sequel, but i think changing 75%, 80% (some new, some from old SNK games) or so of the roster would be fine.
Of course, they will keep Terry, Kyo, Iori, Ryo, because people whine. SF3 is proof of that.
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| TiamatRoar 542th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(5):Re(10):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sat 1 Nov 15:33
I think there aren't many complaints about Andy being cut because everyone should be kinda used to it by now. In all the Capcom vs SNK crossover games, if there had to be any Fatal Fury staples cut, Andy was always the first to go. So it was a pretty simple transition to make him the first to go when a Fatal Fury character had to be cut for The Griffon. I find it doubtful that you'll find many people complaining about The Griffon being added in because it's about time that some MOTW characters showed up, and those people would thus look like nostalgic freaks if they complained about his addition over Andy. Thus, because they can't complain about Griffon being in, which means that a Fatal Fury character has to be cut to make room for him, and because Andy is always the first to go when a Fatal Fury character is cut, they can't really copmlain about Andy being cut, either.
...at least, that's my theory.
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
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| Hagen de Merak 553th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(6):Re(10):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sat 1 Nov 21:50
quote:
I think there aren't many complaints about Andy being cut because everyone should be kinda used to it by now. In all the Capcom vs SNK crossover games, if there had to be any Fatal Fury staples cut, Andy was always the first to go. So it was a pretty simple transition to make him the first to go when a Fatal Fury character had to be cut for The Griffon. I find it doubtful that you'll find many people complaining about The Griffon being added in because it's about time that some MOTW characters showed up, and those people would thus look like nostalgic freaks if they complained about his addition over Andy. Thus, because they can't complain about Griffon being in, which means that a Fatal Fury character has to be cut to make room for him, and because Andy is always the first to go when a Fatal Fury character is cut, they can't really copmlain about Andy being cut, either.
...at least, that's my theory.
yeah, andy is one of my favorite characters. but it didnt really bother me that he was cut because, well, im just to it.
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| DKW
245th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Idle commentary" , posted Sun 2 Nov 01:00
I won't speculate on the final roster or anything involving the gameplay...my enthusiasm for this franchise has seriously nosedived, and it's going to take a lot to get me worked up about it again.
But it's not like I got a whole lot else to do right now, so...
Re. Andy - Personally, I think it's a damn shame that he got railroaded (kinda like Eiji Kisaragi, only much slower). I continue to be utterly baffled as to how SNK 'n Friends has continually screwed over a legion of great or promising characters, often for the most ridiculous of reasons...like, would it really be that hard to dream up a scenario where K9999 somehow DOES NOT ACTUALLY SUCCEED IN WHACKING FOXY?? (Actually, if '02 is any indication, it's questionable as to whether he did, but I'm touching that with Billy Kane's pole.)
And frankly, virtually all the raps against him are either ridiculous or problems that should be incredibly easy to solve. He's got Mai in his pocket and that ticks off a gazillion fanboys? Break them up. It's obvious that he's just not tying the knot, and nobody gives a crap about the Shiranui clan anyway, so make a clean break and let them both move on. His new gameplay stinks? Go back to the old gameplay. He doesn't have a gripping story? Give him one. Creative effort used to be so easy for SNK...why is it so impossible now?
More than anything, I think this illustrates the danger of the designers or fans falling so in love with an archtype that it cripples the character (with the endless Sie & Athena clown-fest being the perfect example of this). It also didn't help (stop me if you've heard this before!) that KOF has recently placed an inordinate amount of attention on a tiny minority of characters, leaving many once-great characters twisting in the wind.
That said...sad to say I'm probably not going to miss him all that much. I mean, what the heck is he, anyway? A wannabe member of some obscure ninja family (that's NEVER been explored in ANY detail ANYWHERE, I hasten to add). And he doesn't have any of the anytime-anyplace mentality that's allowed Terry Bogard, Rugal Bernstein, the Ikaris, Kyo Kusanagi et al to have a purpose in KOF long after their initial rationales have expired. I look at him now, and dangit, he's still the same freedom-loving man of the world who took the long tour of Venice over 11 years ago. Now it looks like it's time for him to make the vacation permanent.
Re. cuts - I've never, never, ever had anything positive to say about the addition-by-subtraction mindset, and it's starting to get downright scary in KOF.
In a nutshell, if you excise all the "old" characters because they're "boring" (which, again, is not exactly Fermat's Last Theorem) and also cut anyone who's "weird" or "out of place" or "sucky"...who the hell is left?
There's a reason certain characters stick around for year after year: people use them. Look how long it took the Street Fighter crowd to warm up to anyone other than Ryu or Ken in SF3. Cutting out the dependable, familiar, and, oh yeah, easy to use characters may be ballsy, but sometimes ballsy is just a synonym for moronic.
Re. continuuity - First off, I'm astonished that anyone even bothers to hash this out anymore, given that fighting game designers of all stripes gleefully take a damn thresher to it whenever the mood strikes (AOF2 Special Stage, anyone?).
As far as MOTW goes, please remember that we don't have a definite year for it. I've heard everything from 2001 to 2009, for crying out loud. Furthermore, it happens an indeterminate amount of time after Geese's final (snicker, chuckle, guffaw) death, an event WE ALSO DO NOT HAVE A DEFINITE DATE FOR. So there's no reason The Griffon can't be in '03...he can't break, violate, or override something that never existed in the first place.
And there's no way that little tyke in '01 is Rock Howard. 
***
Almost certainly more to come. For some reason, I'm keenly interested in the direction Playmore's going with this.
homepage - http://home.hawaii.rr.com/dkwff
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| Time Mage 1677th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(2):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sun 2 Nov 03:28
quote:
Last Blade 2 Team!!! (Hey, they could travel in time with the Dragon powers, or some stupid excuse like that...)
It isn't a bad idea Time mage, but time travel isn't needed...it could be the succesor of the last blade characters...
for exemple Kaede's succesor, a girl who share the same power as yuki but now, and a man who have learn Shigen fighting style....
IMO I wish to see Evil Shin Bao as a boss!!!^^
Well, I don't care about the story, as long as the gameplay is good, that's why I want a LB2 team. The excuse to put it in the game is irrelevant to me.
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| Luisinan 535th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(2):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sun 2 Nov 03:38
DKW, I don't get it. You get down on SNKP for not improving Andy, but then you go on and declare that he's a lost cause? Weird!
Anyway, my 2 cents on this is that people get down on SNKP for bad gameplay and character designs, but SNKP has only released 2 KOF games. 2K1 and 2K2. The whole NESTS mess started with the original SNK.
Secondly, character designing will always be about hits, misses and surprises. Although, I'm loathe to say this, it does seem that post-98 designs have more 'spotty'. I liked all of the new designs in 94-97. I liked most of the new designs in 99-01 except for K9999, Vannesa, Seth, Ramon, Hinako, Bao and May Lee. That's a lot of characters, but I did like the New Hero and NEST team characters, mostly.
Anyway, here's my wish list.
Takuma retires and is replaced with Marco.
Shingo forms a new team.
And.. Hell, I don't know what other changes to make. I would retire the Japan team but all three of them are too popular-- but storywise, they no longer belong in KOF. What would be cool is if Kyo, Iori, K' and Kula became secret characters.
I don't know, I'm just babbling.
Bored? "160"
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| Fatality
34th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(3):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sun 2 Nov 04:45
quote:
DKW, I don't get it. You get down on SNKP for not improving Andy, but then you go on and declare that he's a lost cause? Weird!
Anyway, my 2 cents on this is that people get down on SNKP for bad gameplay and character designs, but SNKP has only released 2 KOF games. 2K1 and 2K2. The whole NESTS mess started with the original SNK.
Secondly, character designing will always be about hits, misses and surprises. Although, I'm loathe to say this, it does seem that post-98 designs have more 'spotty'. I liked all of the new designs in 94-97. I liked most of the new designs in 99-01 except for K9999, Vannesa, Seth, Ramon, Hinako, Bao and May Lee. That's a lot of characters, but I did like the New Hero and NEST team characters, mostly.
Anyway, here's my wish list.
Takuma retires and is replaced with Marco.
Shingo forms a new team.
And.. Hell, I don't know what other changes to make. I would retire the Japan team but all three of them are too popular-- but storywise, they no longer belong in KOF. What would be cool is if Kyo, Iori, K' and Kula became secret characters.
I don't know, I'm just babbling.
if its a new story, then they should just kick all Nest saga characters, most of them anyways. I never really like any of them, cept for Maxiama and K'. That'll make more room for other new characters and old.
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| OYashiroForever 589th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(3):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sun 2 Nov 10:50
quote:
Anyway, my 2 cents on this is that people get down on SNKP for bad gameplay and character designs, but SNKP has only released 2 KOF games. 2K1 and 2K2. The whole NESTS mess started with the original SNK.
Well, if you wanna be really picky, SNKP hasn't released any KoF games. 2k1 and 2k2 were published under the Playmore banner and were, of course, programmed by Eolith (w/ assistance from Brezza, IIRC).
Speaking of which, I'm sorry but I have to crash the Eolith love parade. 2k1 + 2k2 were pure crap in just about every way a game can be crap. Wretched art/bgs, god-awful "music", unimaginative character designs (SNK created Foxy, May Lee looks like Moe from the EX games, K9999 is Tetsuo, and Angel... well, I like Angel), cut-n-paste bosses (would it have been so hard to draw O.Zero his own head rather than borrow Rugal's?), and not one innovative gameplay system. Seriously... even the intros and logos for both games were awful compared to past KoFs. I forgive 2002 only because it plays fast and has minimal BS systems (plus ditched Lin and Bao, my two least favorite KoF characters). Otherwise, I couldn't be happier that the series has returned to its rightful owners. Doujin software companies could've done more with the KoF franchise.
Anywho... that's enough bile for one post. KoF 2003 has been a big so far, so good for me: great new logo, no more NESTs, excellent choice for a new FF team... here's to hoping for some new innovative gameplay systems and a few more redrawn old characters.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
|
| iggy 1965th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(4):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sun 2 Nov 11:06:
quote:
Speaking of which, I'm sorry but I have to crash the Eolith love parade. 2k1 + 2k2 were pure crap in just about every way a game can be crap. Wretched art/bgs, god-awful "music", unimaginative character designs (SNK created Foxy, May Lee looks like Moe from the EX games, K9999 is Tetsuo, and Angel... well, I like Angel), cut-n-paste bosses (would it have been so hard to draw O.Zero his own head rather than borrow Rugal's?), and not one innovative gameplay system.
Oh, please. OK, May lee and K9999 should never have existed, and 2k1 musics and backgrounds were crap. But first, 2k1 was done during an awful period (SNK dying within the creation of the game didn't helped), and succeded to exist, at last, and in the year 2001, which in itself is something we were glad of at the time. And if I did hated it at the time... well, now some time has passed, I have to admit it's not that bad. People have a lousy memory. Stop bitching on the art of the games, play KOF pre-99. Stop bitching about the music, play KOF 97. You think 2k2 backgrounds are ugly? Play 96, 97 or 98. The striker system of 2001 is actually really interesting once you get into it, even though it may not be best suited for a 2p game, it's insanely better than the systems of 99 and 2000, and trying to create combos using all your strikers is actually fun. And for the last time, Original zero is ugly, but his head is not Rugal's. Oh, and don't even get me started with 2k2's Shermie or Chin über goodness. I mean, it's my favourite KOF even though my beloved Chizuru is not in.
Old things are good ; idealizing them and living in a fantasy world of "yesterday was so much better" when it was not is bulshit.
立派すぎるのも、観念するのですよ。
[this message was edited by iggy on Sun 2 Nov 11:07] |
| OYashiroForever 591th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(5):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sun 2 Nov 15:29:
quote:
Oh, please. OK, May lee and K9999 should never have existed, and 2k1 musics and backgrounds were crap. But first, 2k1 was done during an awful period (SNK dying within the creation of the game didn't helped), and succeded to exist, at last, and in the year 2001, which in itself is something we were glad of at the time.
So... what are you implying? Since the game even came out during SNK's troubled times, it's total lack of quality should be ignored/excused? Sorry... I judge a game's quality by what I see, hear, and play, not by mitigating circumstances surrounding the game's release. 2001 looks like shit, it sounds like shit, and it plays like shit. If I wanted a KoF that looked or sounded good, I'd play 2000. If I wanted one that played well, I'd play '98 or 2k2. 2001 is neither. Don't make excuses for it.quote:
And if I did hated it at the time... well, now some time has passed, I have to admit it's not that bad.
This is classic... the VERY NEXT LINE:
quote:
People have a lousy memory. Stop bitching on the art of the games, play KOF pre-99. Stop bitching about the music, play KOF 97. You think 2k2 backgrounds are ugly? Play 96, 97 or 98.
Take your own advice. I agree... some people exaggerate the quality of some of the older KoFs (and old games in general). However, not ONCE in my original post did I mention a game prior to 2001 and make a negative comparison. What I'm saying is that 2001, based on its own merit, is unredeemable garbage. No amount of nostalgia and excuse-making can change that. Or I could just say one word: Yurizilla and win the argument anyway. ;)
quote:
The striker system of 2001 is actually really interesting once you get into it, even though it may not be best suited for a 2p game, it's insanely better than the systems of 99 and 2000
Once again... don't make excuses or compare to other games. That's how politicians argue when they can't give an honest answer. If it's not suited for a 2p game, then it's poor execution of a 2-year old bad idea. In addition, comparing a polished turd to a regular turd does not make the polished one any less a turd. In their 3 different incarnations, strikers were awful... period. In '99, they were all but useless outside of a couple of evil corner juggles. In 2000, they were flat out stupid to the point of "any character + Joe/Dong Hwan/Seth = easy 100% combo" and in 2001, they were useless if you only had one (except for Mai) and easy 100% combos of death if you had more than one (which nobody did because that would be wasting a point character). quote:
Original zero is ugly, but his head is not Rugal's.
No, it's not... but he has the EXACT SAME BODY as 2000 and a head that could be Rugal's if you changed a couple of very minor features. It's merely another example of Eolith's incredible laziness and why 2001 is one of the bottom 2 or 3 KoFs (total package-wise).quote:
Oh, and don't even get me started with 2k2's Shermie or Chin über goodness.
Like I said, I like 2k2 because it at least plays fast and with minimal hiccups. It's still ugly as shit and sounds like it was scored by the Fingernails on a Chalkboard Symphony, but I'm always willing to forgive a game those flaws if it plays well.quote:
Old things are good ; idealizing them and living in a fantasy world of "yesterday was so much better" when it was not is bulshit.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
[this message was edited by OYashiroForever on Sun 2 Nov 15:59] |
| beto
24th Post
New Customer
| "Re(5):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sun 2 Nov 15:38
I like 2K1. It's refreshing. It sounds and looks like hell, but it's pretty good. Better than 2K and 99. Much better. 2K2 was a cheap, rehashed dreammatch, but it was fun.
To me, the only awful KOF was '99. Not because of characters, graphics, music or anything. Because of the system.
2K was ok. Refined 99's style a little. Strikers-Strikers-Strikers was still annoying.
In 2K1 you could get rid of them, choose how many would fight. More freedom.
quote:
Does anyone think that SNK is actually done with the Nests story line (for now) like I believe they said they were in an interview, and that Bao's dragon power is not the central theme of King of Fighters 2003, and that the main boss isn't Ron?
NESTS is over, but i wouldn't be surprised if there's still some residual stuff with someone still alive...
The sponsor of 2K3 is Japanese. If the sponsor is the boss, then it's not Ron. But i think he will be in it somehow. Chizuru was the sponsor in '96, but the boss was Goenitz...
Did any they ever drop plotlines in KOF? I don't remember any (maybe K' glove?). That's why i think "Shin Shingo", Ron, Lin, Bao and Kensou will be in 2K3.
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| iggy 1968th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(6):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sun 2 Nov 16:06:
quote:
some people exaggerate the quality of some of the older KoFs (and old games in general).
OK, I jumped to your throat in implying you were one of them. apologies.
quote:
What I'm saying is that 2001, based on its own merit, is unredeemable garbage.
And what I was saying is that 2k1 was not a good fighting game to play with a friend, but an entertaining game to play alone. I keep the second, you keep the first, that's fine.
quote:
Or I could just say one word: Yurizilla and win the argument anyway. ;)
Aaaah... I liked Yurizilla. It's amongst my favourite KOF drawings. Yuri's inner personality never got pictured in such an exact way.
quote:
If it's not suited for a 2p game, then it's poor execution of a 2-year old bad idea.
To not repeat myself, I will devellop this part : it's interesting to try to create combos using only characters you like, or only characters of a given team (for example, trying to do 100% with each character of the Nests team with each time the 3 others as strikers, so you don't stick with Joe or Seth but have to use strikers more hard to use effectively.) It may not be the way the game was designed to be liked, but it's a very entertaining way to enjoy the game. At least for me. And even if I know you didn't imply it, I have to say that a way to be entertaining lacked completely to 96, 97 or 99.
quote:
but he has the EXACT SAME BODY as 2000
Well, one is the other's clone, and Nest's fashion sense is not that liberal...
quote:
It's merely another example of Eolith's incredible laziness
This is why I was talking of the hard time during which the game was created. You can't say Eolith was lazy when they did 2k1, they just didn't have time. On the other hand, they had all the time they wanted to do 2k2, so I guess you can call them lazy on this one. I know I won't ; 2k2 had worse music than 98, but better backgrounds, a better casting, a better balance, better artworks...
To sum up my point : 2k1 was good in its own particular way, 2k2 was better than any other kof, including 98, even though it didn't have much new things in it. So Eolith did good things with the franchise, and I think they deserve some respect for this. I'm not sure (I hope, but I'm not sure) the newly reborn SNK will be able to keep up with it with 2k3.
立派すぎるのも、観念するのですよ。
[this message was edited by iggy on Sun 2 Nov 16:08] |
| OYashiroForever 591th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(7):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Sun 2 Nov 17:02
Once again, the members of the MMCafe prove themselves to be intelligent, diplomatic, and gracious while arguing. My hat's off to you, sir. While I will agree to disagree, there's still a couple of points I'd like to make before dropping this completely.quote:
And what I was saying is that 2k1 was not a good fighting game to play with a friend, but an entertaining game to play alone. I keep the second, you keep the first, that's fine.
Perhaps, but like I've said to Rugal everytime he makes this point, the same could be said of almost ANY fighting game. Hell, even Killer Instinct + Mortal Kombat are both entertaining by that logic. If that's the case, then how do you compare one to another? Well, if you're me, it's through presentation (art, bgs, f/x, music) and competitive gameplay. You yourself admitted on seperate posts that the presentation and the competitive gameplay aspect were both lacking in 2001. What more do I have to say? It's a BAD game. If the only way you can enjoy it is by setting up arbitrary rules then you're just hunting and should probably play a better game where you don't have to (like 2002, for instance).
quote:
Aaaah... I liked Yurizilla. It's amongst my favourite KOF drawings. Yuri's inner personality never got pictured in such an exact way.
Actually, I don't mind Yurizilla either. It's goofy looking, but I don't blow it out of proportion like some of the diehard Nona-haters tend to do. That was the reason for the winking smiley.
quote:
To not repeat myself, I will devellop this part : it's interesting to try to create combos using only characters you like, or only characters of a given team (for example, trying to do 100% with each character of the Nests team with each time the 3 others as strikers, so you don't stick with Joe or Seth but have to use strikers more hard to use effectively.) It may not be the way the game was designed to be liked, but it's a very entertaining way to enjoy the game. At least for me. And even if I know you didn't imply it, I have to say that a way to be entertaining lacked completely to 96, 97 or 99.
I had fun building big combos in 2001 also... however, that was for about a month back when it came out and I have fun doing that in EVERY fighting game. The question presented is 'is KoF 2001 a good game?' and the answer I'm still getting is no. It's still ugly, it still has the worst music of ANY KoF game, and it still doesn't hold up under any kind of scrutiny for competitive play.
quote:
Well, one is the other's clone, and Nest's fashion sense is not that liberal...
Funny, I saw Mr. Nests, Krizalid, and Misty in very different and relatively interesting outfits. I still chalk up his unimaginative look to laziness.
quote:
This is why I was talking of the hard time during which the game was created. You can't say Eolith was lazy when they did 2k1, they just didn't have time.
If they needed more time, they could've just delayed the game. It came out in the arcades in October and Eolith showed that beta in Mexico that was practically done even earlier than that. Financially and game time-wise (as in keeping it inside the 2001 timeframe), the game could've been delayed a full two months and it would've had no negative impact. Rather than make excuses for them, I still say that Eolith is either Capcom-level lazy or horribly understaffed. However, by the ridiculous number of names in 2001's credits, I'm guessing it's the former.
quote:
On the other hand, they had all the time they wanted to do 2k2, so I guess you can call them lazy on this one. I know I won't ; 2k2 had worse music than 98, but better backgrounds, a better casting, a better balance, better artworks...
Things like art and cast selection are a matter of personal taste, but I prefer '98 on most of those points. No matter, though... I'm not arguing 2k2's merit.
quote:
To sum up my point : 2k1 was good in its own particular way, 2k2 was better than any other kof, including 98, even though it didn't have much new things in it. So Eolith did good things with the franchise, and I think they deserve some respect for this. I'm not sure (I hope, but I'm not sure) the newly reborn SNK will be able to keep up with it with 2k3.
My point was mostly that 2001 is garbage in nearly every way you can judge a game and that 2002 was nearly impossible for them to screw up as it was mostly just a carbon-copy of '98. Eolith's contributions to KoF were minimal: they left us with a couple of throwaway characters, one awful game, one good dreammatch (which is mostly recycling anyways), and some of the worst music ever released. Both games would've been better off with someone else and I eagerly await the return of SNK's in-house developers.
So... hooray for 2k3!
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| beto
25th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(8):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Mon 3 Nov 05:49
quote:
Hell, even Killer Instinct + Mortal Kombat are both entertaining by that logic. If that's the case, then how do you compare one to another? Well, if you're me, it's through presentation (art, bgs, f/x, music) and competitive gameplay. You yourself admitted on seperate posts that the presentation and the competitive gameplay aspect were both lacking in 2001. What more do I have to say? It's a BAD game. And even if I know you didn't imply it, I have to say that a way to be entertaining lacked completely to 96, 97 or 99.The question presented is 'is KoF 2001 a good game?' and the answer I'm still getting is no. It's still ugly, it still has the worst music of ANY KoF game, and it still doesn't hold up under any kind of scrutiny for competitive play.
A game is fun if a game is fun.
All this about "competitive gameplay", "graphics", "music" talk is so SRK it's not even funny.
If you can play a game and enjoy it, that's what matters. Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, Eternal Champions, Karnov's Revenge, Double Dragon... If you have fun with it, one player or two player, that's all that matters.
Leave the "a game is only good if it's good in 2 player" talk to SRK, please.
You only play in 2 player mode and in games with good art and music? Go for '98 or 2K2. Problem solved. Or better yet: SF3:3s.
The only KOFs i play in 2P nowadays are '97 and '98 (and a dash of 2K2). Doesn't change the fact i have a lot of fun with 96 and 2K1 too.
By the way, '97 is not only my favorite KOF, but it also has my favorite soundtrack in any KOF. I'm not going to bother explaining why, because you won't listen anyway.
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| Phoenix
176th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(3):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Mon 3 Nov 09:39:
Just to pop in my 2 cents- I loved 2K1 for its gameplay. Not for its looks or music. It definitely had style and Igniz gets brownie points. Also, 2K1's tournament scene was quite huge with lots of "top tier" characters. So even SRK's idiots can't say 2K1 is not 2P game. I'm sure we all remember tournaments in Singapore, HK, China, and the Korea VS Japan tournament and so on. Top tier (ugh I hate that word now) in 2K1: May Lee, Angel, K9999, Iori, Kyo (only with strykers), K', Foxy, Heidern, Lin, Kim, Choi, Robert, Clark etc. So if a game is all about gameplay then 2K1 is a triumph just like 2K2.
Edit: But I do agree that both 2K1 and 2K2 has rooms for improvement. Hopefully 2K3 will blow them out of the water and become an all time classic.
"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
[this message was edited by Phoenix on Mon 3 Nov 09:45] |
| aderack
58th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(4):KOF 2003 thread, part II" , posted Mon 3 Nov 23:59:
As far as 2001 goes, there are a few (as of yet largely unmentioned) factors which bear consideration.
Some of the most original characters in years (at least in terms of control scheme) were introduced in this game. Nobody like May Lee or Angel or Foxy had been in the series previously. K9999 was another experiment.
Actually, none of the new characters were conventional. Their designs might be debatable. Their usefulness, perhaps as well. Their originality, game-wise, is a tough one to touch.
There's more emotional tension in the game than in any other game in the series. '96 and '97 probably come closest. This is partially due to the cast, and its weird chemistry and balance. Part of it is due to the strange atmosphere created by the new art. Part of it is due to the rougher gameplay style.
Due in part to the revamped striker system, it could be strongly argued that 2001 is the most strategic game in a series which is distinguished in part by its strategic nature.
Lastly, Eolith paid a noteworthy degree of attention to small, curious details that most casual players might overlook, or might not take collectively. K' puts his glove back on in the intro sequence. Kyo continues on his strange downward spiral that had been hinted at before.
Shingo finally gets to fight alongside Kyo, but then is dismissed -- but then is picked up by Kyo's father. It seems there's something within Shingo that everyone's overlooked. As Kensou gets his powers back, Bao loses some of his.
Some elements are just plain weird (the final explanation for the Burning team, for instance). The plot probably should have gone on for another chapter if it were to have ended in any satisfactory way.
And again, the game is just rough as hell in all of its obvious surface elements.
Underneath the grunge, however, is a lot of care. This care is especially unusual when you consider that this isn't Eolith's game. They paid attention. They did their research.
Eolith could have wound up with a game that's nothing but surface. Instead, they got a game that's got no surface but which, in its details, makes an effort to explore and exemplify what they seem to feel is the essence of KoF.
There's little in the game which is easy. And in a sense, that shows. It's all bare.
The new characters are unattractive, but effort went into making them original -- something that would enhance the overall roster -- rather than just regurgitate existing templates.
The new game system (both in terms of the feel of the battles and the revised striker concept) is rough and prone to exploitation -- but in another sense it taps into the emotional and strategic themes that have always been with the series, in a way which hadn't been done before to quite that extent.
Eolith didn't have to go through the effort to completely revise the existing system. And yet in so doing, they achieved something unique. In some senses elegant; in others, torn and bleeding.
The plot makes no sense, but the attention to character motivation and chemistry is pretty intricate. So even while the events themselves are undeniably strange, it all just serves as a backdrop for the personalities exploding against each other in a way that they haven't for some time. Again, this is an exaggeration of existing themes within KoF.
When you consider all of the above, it seems clear that the game isn't entirely careless in its design. It's merely rough in execution.
Of course, this roughness evinces itself in nearly element of the game.
To me, this adds texture and atmosphere. I take it as a personality trait. The reason is that this roughness itself ties into the uncertain, edgy emotional balance already present in the game. As would an expressionist painting.
Others might take this roughness as a flaw. That's fine. It depends on what you're looking for.
2001, however, for my money, has more meaning within it, bouncing amongst its various elements, than any single other game in the series. It makes me uncomfortable, and yet it also gratifies me.
No matter where I look, I find a more complex -- if unrefined -- artistry than had been shown up until that point.
It makes me feel.
It obviously has the same effect on most people here, judging by the mixture of solid love and hate.
In that, perhaps it's an artistic success. Everyone who hates it seems to confirm this principle as well as those who adore it.
This is, of course, all merely what I observe from my vantage point.
EricJonRösselWaugh
YOU CANNOT STOP ME WITH JUST A PARAMECIUM!
[this message was edited by aderack on Tue 4 Nov 00:12] |
| OYashiroForever 597th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Die, thread, die! (Or a thesis on 2001)" , posted Wed 5 Nov 02:07:
Dammit... why won't this die? Oh well, time for me to show my hypocrisy by responding and, therefore, extending this hellish thread's lifespan.quote:
As far as 2001 goes, there are a few (as of yet largely unmentioned) factors which bear consideration.
They've gone unmentioned because it's mostly just pseudo-intellectual rambling and has little to do with how the general game-playing audience (in this case, KoF players) judge the relative merit of a game and everything to do with how an odd little scenario you've set up for the game in which it's glaring technical and artistic flaws are overlooked and unimportant, miniscule details are exaggerated to portray a kind of mystical feng shui that simply isn't there.
quote:
Some of the most original characters in years (at least in terms of control scheme) were introduced in this game. Nobody like May Lee or Angel or Foxy had been in the series previously. K9999 was another experiment.
May Lee in 2001 had 2 "Ranbu" supers, a command counter, and a series of chains (a la Aragami/Dokugami). Foxy had a "ranbu", an anti-air done with a dragon-punch motion, and a dash that hit low. Angel had a "ranbu" super, a counter super, and a series of chains. Now... where does the innovation come in? Is it because Angel only required the press of a direction and a button to do her chains? Is it because Foxy had an easy unblockable that broke the game in two? Perhaps it was May Lee's easy infinite or 100%s? No, the characters weren't original in design (Foxy was SNK's, K9999 is a parody character, Angel is a pro-wrestling female with large breasts who's a little naughty, and May Lee is another protege with a hero complex) or in control scheme.quote:
There's more emotional tension in the game than in any other game in the series. '96 and '97 probably come closest. This is partially due to the cast, and its weird chemistry and balance. Part of it is due to the strange atmosphere created by the new art. Part of it is due to the rougher gameplay style.
Emotional tension? Cast chemistry? Strange atmosphere created by art style? Seriously... whatever illegal narcotic you're taking, you need to quit hogging it. It's a god-damned fighting game and you're treating it with WAY more artistic reverence than it deserves. <eagerly awaits the "you don't get it" response> Yes, everyone brings their own unique viewpoint to the table when discussing the relative merit of a piece of art/entertainment. However, talking about "emotional tension" in a fighting game sounds about as ridiculous as discussing the character motivation in genre horror films. It's not there and you need to quit looking for it.quote:
Due in part to the revamped striker system, it could be strongly argued that 2001 is the most strategic game in a series which is distinguished in part by its strategic nature.
I call bullshit. You can talk about emotional tension 'till you're blue in the face and I can't say boo because it's completely subjective opinion, but this isn't. Sooo.. please outline, using specific detail and character vs. character situational examples, how 2001's systems make it the most strategic game in the series. Feel free to make frequent comparisons to '98 and 2002, two games that are frequently hailed as the most strategic, balanced, and playable entries in the series. quote:
Lastly, Eolith paid a noteworthy degree of attention to small, curious details that most casual players might overlook, or might not take collectively. K' puts his glove back on in the intro sequence. Kyo continues on his strange downward spiral that had been hinted at before.<snip>
I certainly won't fault Eolith (or whomever came up with the basic story parameters) for not knowing the characters and making a good attempt at making sense of what was already a mess of a storyline. However, once again, you're completely exaggerating the value of miniscule story details. Attention to detail or lack thereof is only a valid compliment/complaint once you've got a solid foundation on which to build those details.quote:
And again, the game is just rough as hell in all of its obvious surface elements.
Well duh.quote:
Underneath the grunge, however, is a lot of care. This care is especially unusual when you consider that this isn't Eolith's game. They paid attention. They did their research.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that they were fans of the series. No matter, though, because "care" is drawing backgrounds that don't look like they belong in an NES game and composing music that doesn't all sound the same and universally hurt your ears. "Paying attention" is beta-testing your game enough to find obvious, easy infinites and realizing that if your game is "rough as hell in all of its obvious surface elements" then perhaps it needs a couple more months of work.quote:
Eolith could have wound up with a game that's nothing but surface. Instead, they got a game that's got no surface but which, in its details, makes an effort to explore and exemplify what they seem to feel is the essence of KoF.
Please... enlighten me on this topic. What is this "essence of KoF" that you speak of? Last I checked, KoF was a team-based crossover fighting game that puts slightly more emphasis on character interaction and story than most crossover games. Did I miss something?
quote:
There's little in the game which is easy. And in a sense, that shows. It's all bare.
If by bare, you mean ugly and washed-out, than yes, I agree.quote:
The new characters are unattractive, but effort went into making them original -- something that would enhance the overall roster -- rather than just regurgitate existing templates.
Already discussed this... in control scheme, character design, and fighting game archetypes, none of the "new" characters broke any new ground. They were all perfectly functional, but they were far from being a renaissance, and not even close to a reason for excusing 2001's gross deficiencies.quote:
The new game system (both in terms of the feel of the battles and the revised striker concept) is rough and prone to exploitation -- but in another sense it taps into the emotional and strategic themes that have always been with the series, in a way which hadn't been done before to quite that extent.
Okay... that's it. Now I KNOW this is a joke. Seriously, if you're connecting emotion with a fighting game's engine, tactics, and techniques, you're either wording your sentences horribly, taking hallucinogenic drugs, or have a currently undocumented form of synesthesia.
<big ol' snip>quote:
This is, of course, all merely what I observe from my vantage point.
Well, your vantage point certainly is unique. I'll give you that, friend. While I disagree with your assessment of the game on just about every level and even disagree on your basic assumptions of what the purpose and fundamental nature of fighting games is, I have to admit that you certainly have put a lot of thought in to this.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
[this message was edited by OYashiroForever on Wed 5 Nov 02:13] |
| Phoenix
180th Post
Regular Customer
| "I'm hungry" , posted Wed 5 Nov 08:29:
There are several ppl here who love 2K1- as aderack has pointed out it's a hit or miss kinda thing. Bash the presentation and music all you want but if you want to call the game unbalanced then I disagree.
Even at very high level of play the game is well balanced despite the few infinites. (besides infinites in kof where 80 % combos flourish means 20% extra damage if you can pull it off) And if you want to call May Lee, Angel, K9999, and Foxy unoriginal- then who do you consider original? At a time when everything has been done before, these characters manage to keep themselves fresh.
There has never been a character like Angel before. I'll leave it at that. And K9999 back in 2K1 had like 2 special moves...SNK's version of Guile shall we say. May is pretty unique too with her command chain kick moves with the up and down mix up game and counters into ranbus from air and ground.
It's the mixture of all these things into one character that makes her interesting...kinda like Mary. Not to mention getting brownie points for being a style switcher- with plenty of combos involving both styles. Foxy wasn't all that unique IMO but her design was certainly unorthodox and her suicide super is fun.
Also 2K1's ratio system allows lots of freedom with your stryker usage as well as the possibilities of multiple stryker combos to complement each character's arsenal in the game- it's very in depth. And it probably takes an eternity to completely master 2K1.
Finally I'd like to point out that emotional tension does have a place in a fighting game. But that importance has been de-emphasized by lots of recent fighting games with no story at all- mostly from Capcom's VS titles and partly 3S cuz that game might as well not have a story.
Games like Samsho, Rival Schools, KOF 97 etc. have a special place in their fans' hearts cuz of the overall package that is presented when the story, characters, music, visuals, and gameplay come together into a form of entertainment that is memorable. This applies to movies, books, PC FPS games, RPG games, RTS games, 2D/3D fighters- basically everywhere. Garou is an example of a 2D fighter that has emotional tension. (story and gameplay)
"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
[this message was edited by Phoenix on Wed 5 Nov 08:55] |
| Krzyzewski Man
72th Post
Occasional Customer
| "I Just Had Lunch" , posted Wed 5 Nov 10:47
You know, as a former speech and debater, I feel a need to argue with this. Just my persuasion.
quote:
Even at very high level of play the game is well balanced despite the few infinites. (besides infinites in kof where 80 % combos flourish means 20% extra damage if you can pull it off)
I recall that when KOFOnline ran a tournament, there were a few things that they did in fact have to ban (Foxy unblockable, Hinako stun bug for example). Also, the gameplay was dominated by Foxy and May Lee, and a few other high-tier characters. Almost every winning team used Foxy to great effect, it seemed. Also, to call the extra 20% in an infinite insignificant is frankly ridiculous. Many matches have been won via comeback, often from impossible odds. An infinite is essentially an easy one-hit kill. Any such thing completely unbalances the game. Why do you think no one picked Angel - it wasn't just her being complicated, she was the butt of many infinites.
quote:
There has never been a character like Angel before. I'll leave it at that.
Incorrect. For instance, in the Bloody Roar series, there are no less than 3 characters utilizing chain combos much like Angel's (Long, Shenlong, Uriko.) And of course, she is heavily based off of the Rock and Terri Runnels from World Wrestling Entertainment.
quote:
And K9999 back in 2K1 had like 2 special moves...SNK's version of Guile shall we say.
And thusly he is unoriginal. Would you say that Kyokugenryu is completely unique compared to the Ansatsuken style, for example?
quote:
May is pretty unique too with her command chain kick moves with the up and down mix up game and counters into ranbus from air and ground.It's the mixture of all these things into one character that makes her interesting...kinda like Mary. Not to mention getting brownie points for being a style switcher- with plenty of combos involving both styles.
Okay, so she's pretty unique (not with her style switching, however). One out of three. And this isn't baseball, so that's a pretty bad argument, in my arrogant and sanctimonious opinion.
quote:
Foxy wasn't all that unique IMO but her design was certainly unorthodox and her suicide super is fun.
Alright then, I'll just leave her out of the argument. And what's the use of a fun super, anyway? The Chouhatsu Dentetsu is fun. Look how useful that is.
quote:
Also 2K1's ratio system allows lots of freedom with your stryker usage as well as the possibilities of multiple stryker combos to complement each character's arsenal in the game- it's very in depth. And it probably takes an eternity to completely master 2K1.
A glut of options does not a strategical game make. For instance, in SVC, there are a myriad of defensive options, but the Guard Cancel Step reigns over most of these, because of its use. And it takes an eternity to completely master anything - or so I would assume, as I haven't actually seen anyone completely master anything yet.
quote:
Finally I'd like to point out that emotional tension does have a place in a fighting game. But that importance has been de-emphasized by lots of recent fighting games with no story at all- mostly from Capcom's VS titles and partly 3S cuz that game might as well not have a story.
There are at least as many story-heavy fighting games as there are versus games. But usually, even they have tension and drama, for various reasons. And your dislike of 3S's story does not mean it does not have one. I myself reserve judgment on the game.
quote:
Games like Samsho, Rival Schools, KOF 97 etc. have a special place in their fans' hearts cuz of the overall package that is presented when the story, characters, music, visuals, and gameplay come together into a form of entertainment that is memorable. This applies to movies, books, PC FPS games, RPG games, RTS games, 2D/3D fighters- basically everywhere. Garou is an example of a 2D fighter that has emotional tension. (story and gameplay)
Good. So then it should be quite possible to make an emotionally tense or at least emotionally fulfilling game. So why isn't 2001?
CMFPIWSFAOMFG!!!!
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| Phoenix
181th Post
Regular Customer
| "My rant" , posted Wed 5 Nov 11:26:
I hope you don't mind if I keep my reply in a rant format. I'm not arguing with anyone here just discussing from a different opinion. Let's look back upon the Singapore tournament cuz most ppl here probably saw it.
May Lee despite her infinite did not dominate the tournament at all. There was even a guy who can land it consistently but the problem was for him to find the chance to land it against the likes of say Heidern or Clark.
And if you really think Angel's gameplay is not unique then I won't argue with you. I personally found it refreshing. As for K9999, he's not really "new" as he is "new for SNK who is known for 50 moves per character."
If you remember the guy who won the Singapore tournament used Heidern very effectively, but in the Japan vs Korea tourney Heidern was useless against May. So it all depends on how you use the character than which character are you using.
I'll agree with you about the Hinako bug though...wait wasn't that bug allowed in the kofonline tourney? I can't remember. And you're right when you say that every team had Foxy and May Lee. But you're also forgetting how every team had Iori, Heidern, Lin, Kim, Choi, Robert, Clark, K' and so forth. Well, I didn't see too many Roberts but he was good. The top 2 teams didn't have Foxy to my memory.
And I don't know why you're comparing 2K1 with SVC. That's a very poor choice for comparisons. And I think tons of options can make a deep fighter. As a matter of fact, the Korean 2K1 champion was probably the world's greatest May Lee user who didn't use the infinite. He basically knew everything about her including all her stryker combinations...that "mastery of the depth others don't bother with" gave him the edge to win. Just cuz most ppl don't bother to learn the system in depth does not mean the depth isn't there.
Why isn't 2K1 an emotionally tense game? I think that question is probably way too subjective. So to sum it up I agree with what Rugal said. I typed this up in like 4 minutes- so it's probably an ugly mess.
"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
[this message was edited by Phoenix on Wed 5 Nov 11:32] |
| Krzyzewski Man
75th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(1):My rant" , posted Wed 5 Nov 12:15:
quote:
And if you really think Angel's gameplay is not unique then I won't argue with you. I personally found it refreshing.
The problem with that statement is that I don't think that Angel isn't unique, I know that it is not in fact unique. I gave actual facts that showed she was heavily based off of other characters, and was thusly not unique by definition. If you had argued that she was a good character, then that would be purely your opinion and I would have no problem with that. Basically, you just misinterpreted my misgivings with your post.
quote:
If you remember the guy who won the Singapore tournament used Heidern very effectively, but in the Japan vs Korea tourney Heidern was useless against May.
And that could be tacked up to a lack of ability on the part of the Korean players; it could be like how in GGXX very few American players use Eddie effectively, while in Japan, he is top tier, probably because they are better familiarized with his intricacies.
quote:
I'll agree with you about the Hinako bug though...wait wasn't that bug allowed in the kofonline tourney? I can't remember.
I believe it was allowed for one match, then banned, as they hadn't banned it in the prematch rules, but it was just as unbalancing as Foxy's glitch. The guy, however, still used Hinako's infinites and such, if I'm not mistaken.
quote:
And I don't know why you're comparing 2K1 with SVC. That's a very poor choice for comparisons.
How so? I have no way of arguing if you just flat out state your opinion without giving me any reasons. Please tell me why you think this is a poor comparison.
quote:
So to sum it up I agree with what Rugal said. 'I can sum this all up very easily: "Some people like KOF 2001 despite its flaws, others don't."'
Fine and dandy, but that wasn't what I was arguing about; I was going after some of the logical conclusions you were making, since by my reckoning they were unsound. I myself make no judgement on KOF 2001.
But anyway, keep posting. This is getting interesting.
CMFPIWSFAOMFG!!!!
[this message was edited by Krzyzewski Man on Wed 5 Nov 12:20] |
| OYashiroForever 598th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(1):I'm hungry" , posted Wed 5 Nov 15:46
Well... I had another long, drawn-out, point-by-point assessment of your post, Phoenix, but my computer ate it (not quite sure how). Since I have no desire to duplicate it and I've gotta go out here shortly to eat and see Matrix 3, I'll keep this short.
A couple of quick points to make and then I will drop this for good (crosses fingers):
1) 2001's ratio system, much like CvS1's, is horribly unbalanced and, therefore, a bust. Much like there was no reason to use a 3/1 setup or a ratio 4 in CvS1, you leave yourself at a significant disadvantage if you use 1/3 or 4/0 in 2001 (having less than 2 point characters is suicide no matter how many strikers you have or how fast you build up meter and 4/0 leaves you with no super-cancels, no strikers, and no SDMs, effectively eliminating all of the game's big-damage options). In nearly two years of playing 2001, I've seen maybe a half-dozen people use anything other than a 3/1 setup in high-level play (tournament or casual) and they always lost.
2) Infinites don't break a game (particularly when May Lee was the only character who didn't need one to be effective... Kula + Hinako were fairly useless without theirs). However, infinites combined with easy-to-perform unblockables, stun bugs, Lin's SDM, Heidern's 10-ft. long leg, and 100%s that only require two meters sure as hell don't make for a rewarding gameplay experience. In addition, the list of useable characters in 2001 IS a small one and while that doesn't necessarily make the game unplayable, it makes it a hell of a lot less fun to play or watch.
3) Isn't the fact that the best defense anyone can muster for the game is "I like it despite its flaws" an obvious sign that perhaps the game is lacking? Not a single person has come out and said "I don't know what you're talking about... this game is the best thing since sliced bread". Everyone just kinda shrugs their shoulder and says what amounts to: "Ehhh... it's crap, but I derive pleasure from it by looking at it from a very specific angle" or "it's not the worst thing ever made".
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| dkw
246th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Idle commentary p2" , posted Wed 5 Nov 20:40
SNKP, SNKP...gotta remember that.
Luisinan - Hey man, I think a FF icon getting axed sucks as much as anyone else. All I'm saying that if SNKP has to do it, Andy's the logical choice. Let's face it, they never gave him much to work with, and he's been a damn blank slate for years now. And the thing I liked the most about him (i.e. easy to learn) is no longer there.
I'd still much rather SNKP be much, much less cavalier about removing characters. Foxy, one of their most original characters, got one damn tournament, for crying out loud. I've railed on this in the past, and it bears repeating: what's so difficult about creating a storyline where insanely popular characters don't get killed or booted?
Furthermore, each dumped character means another character that has to be designed, developed, tested, polsihed, and completed. So much time and effort spent bringing in the new blood that could've gone to finding bugs, balancing the roster, cleaning up the music, etc. I can't imagine that an endless revolving door can be good for any fighting franchise.
(And yes, I know that hardware is the eternal issue. Which is why they should've upgraded years ago. This one's a no-brainer.)
Anyway, I'll be interested to see if they can pull it off. It'll be one heck of a feat if they can.
homepage - http://home.hawaii.rr.com/dkwff
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| Fro Boy11 1861th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(2):2k1 debate" , posted Thu 6 Nov 13:04
quote:
An user called "the_colonel" posted this babelfish translation on N-G.com's forum:
"[ Share ] the KOF03 most recent news, the confidence level high knows the partial recent news from Hong Kong Time brother there: The news comes some which obtains from Hong Kong GAME NEXT? Family news...? SNK? But knows 1. This story really is the sum? The strength has? Has obtained? 2. The cat burglar one row can leave? 3. Lead? Not clear... But center BOSS? Yes? Has is ANGEL, K9999 and MAY LEE 3 by? Role are many? Except... Because of version? 4. The new lead fable is with the wind.? Has this is big? Conduct that Japanese then is this BOSS5. Entire? Has the possibility and other people one? Because? SNK? Does not include? Surface person in? Has 6 brand-new original? Role 6. One? Role? Leaves by the brand-new image? God? Thousand? In 03 chapters? Is with the OL modelling..... 7. Looks like 11? +6 brand-new characters, moreover? Has EDIT? With role... Adds? Ultra? 40 8.11 months 18? Has TEST...? 9.BAO100% enters the stage..? The strength and he have? 10. System? Retains MAX MODE? Has one? Brand-new department? Substitutes for ST and the TOS department? 11.03 no longer has eight? The collection leaves? --------------------------- Above the news confidence level is quite high, but plays also in the manufacture, cannot guarantee 100% are correct."
It's funny trying to make sense of it. Don't try too hard.
The only thing I got out of that was something about Bao, Max Mode, K49, Angel, May Lee and 6 brand new characters.
Maybe someone else can do better than I can at making any sense out of that.
Still waiting for a Dan Hibiki and Robert Garcia dream match!
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| beto
30th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(3):2k1 debate" , posted Thu 6 Nov 20:38
quote:
The only thing I got out of that was something about Bao, Max Mode, K49, Angel, May Lee and 6 brand new characters.
Maybe someone else can do better than I can at making any sense out of that.
Yeah, if those are in the "things that stayed" news, i'm happy. Max Mode was cool and i love Angel. Bao is a given, considering the ending. K49... i could live without.
Anyway, i also remember someone saying there were 11 "new" characters from older SNK games (people that we haven't seen as regulars in KOF before) and 6 completelly new characters.
This babelfish translation seems to say the same thing: "11 + 6 new".
Now, if this is true, how many "old guys" would we have? Back then, 2K3 was rumored to have 8 teams only. Considering that it seems like it's a 3-player team game now, that would add up to 24 characters.
It would be strange, because it would leave only 7 spots, two of them already being taken (Terry and Joe). Considering that Kensou and Bao are most definetly in the game, that would leave only THREE spaces left.
I like the idea, (because that would mean a lot of fresh characters and more space for animation), but it's probably just a case of having more than 24 characters.
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| Fro Boy11 1863th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(4):2k1 debate" , posted Thu 6 Nov 23:13
quote:
The only thing I got out of that was something about Bao, Max Mode, K49, Angel, May Lee and 6 brand new characters.
Maybe someone else can do better than I can at making any sense out of that.
Yeah, if those are in the "things that stayed" news, i'm happy. Max Mode was cool and i love Angel. Bao is a given, considering the ending. K49... i could live without.
Anyway, i also remember someone saying there were 11 "new" characters from older SNK games (people that we haven't seen as regulars in KOF before) and 6 completelly new characters.
This babelfish translation seems to say the same thing: "11 + 6 new".
Now, if this is true, how many "old guys" would we have? Back then, 2K3 was rumored to have 8 teams only. Considering that it seems like it's a 3-player team game now, that would add up to 24 characters.
It would be strange, because it would leave only 7 spots, two of them already being taken (Terry and Joe). Considering that Kensou and Bao are most definetly in the game, that would leave only THREE spaces left.
I like the idea, (because that would mean a lot of fresh characters and more space for animation), but it's probably just a case of having more than 24 characters.
KOF usually doesn't have less than 36-40 characters. I would love it if they had more new characters, but you gotta add the mainstays.
Kyo
Terry
Ryo
Iori
Athena
K'
Kim
everyone else is a bonus basically. So far the returning characters are Joe, Bao, and Shingo (from the 2k1 endings), as for everyone else, well, they can be replaced with new characters. I don't know. I'm expecting Kyo, Iori, and Ryo. Other than that, I'm trying to keep an open mind. Hopefully the roster will have 12 teams and 36 characters. Half of them old, half of them new. That probably won't happen though.
Still waiting for a Dan Hibiki and Robert Garcia dream match!
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| beto
31th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(5):2k1 debate" , posted Fri 7 Nov 07:59
quote:
KOF usually doesn't have less than 36-40 characters. I would love it if they had more new characters, but you gotta add the mainstays.
Kyo
Terry
Ryo
Iori
Athena
K'
Kim
everyone else is a bonus basically. So far the returning characters are Joe, Bao, and Shingo (from the 2k1 endings), as for everyone else, well, they can be replaced with new characters. I don't know. I'm expecting Kyo, Iori, and Ryo. Other than that, I'm trying to keep an open mind. Hopefully the roster will have 12 teams and 36 characters. Half of them old, half of them new. That probably won't happen though.
'94 had 24 characters (plus Rugal) and it was fine, IMO.
Yeah, i forgot Shingo. I hope he's with Saisyu. That would be a nice team. Maybe with Kyoko as third character? Hahaha! Saisyu would never allow that...
Another thing i remembered: one character uses wind as his power. It's also (kinda) confirmed by this "translation". I'm assuming it's the new main character, considering the boss using wind wouldn't be something new (no KOF boss is cooler than Goenitz).
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| snkneoshingo2k3
13th Post
New Customer
| "Re(2):2k1 debate" , posted Fri 7 Nov 12:17
quote:
An user called "the_colonel" posted this babelfish translation on N-G.com's forum:
"[ Share ] the KOF03 most recent news, the confidence level high knows the partial recent news from Hong Kong Time brother there: The news comes some which obtains from Hong Kong GAME NEXT? Family news...? SNK? But knows 1. This story really is the sum? The strength has? Has obtained? 2. The cat burglar one row can leave? 3. Lead? Not clear... But center BOSS? Yes? Has is ANGEL, K9999 and MAY LEE 3 by? Role are many? Except... Because of version? 4. The new lead fable is with the wind.? Has this is big? Conduct that Japanese then is this BOSS5. Entire? Has the possibility and other people one? Because? SNK? Does not include? Surface person in? Has 6 brand-new original? Role 6. One? Role? Leaves by the brand-new image? God? Thousand? In 03 chapters? Is with the OL modelling..... 7. Looks like 11? +6 brand-new characters, moreover? Has EDIT? With role... Adds? Ultra? 40 8.11 months 18? Has TEST...? 9.BAO100% enters the stage..? The strength and he have? 10. System? Retains MAX MODE? Has one? Brand-new department? Substitutes for ST and the TOS department? 11.03 no longer has eight? The collection leaves? --------------------------- Above the news confidence level is quite high, but plays also in the manufacture, cannot guarantee 100% are correct."
It's funny trying to make sense of it. Don't try too hard.
Hello,I'm back.Sadly,this week has turned out to be a good news/bad news scenario regarding SNK Playmore.The good news is we've finally seen Metal Slug 5 in action ahead of the official release next week,and I'm honestly surprised at how greatly promising the game is;we'll see if it will become THE Metal Slug and be more than just the TRUE sequel to Metal Slug 3.
Of course, the bad news is that we've got no new info on The King Of Fighters 2003(better luck next week),but everyone already is in overdrive because of this interesting news report about KOF2003. Luckily,thanks to the guy behind kofonline.com,I can give you the full translation of the report.
KOF2003's story should revolve around the Dragon's Spirit and the Hizoku Clan,which means that Lin,Chitto,Sai,Ran(Hizoku) and the duo Bao-Sie Kensou will be in the game.
Also,due to Korean copyright issues,
K9999,May Lee and Angel may not appear in the game,but the game will have over 30 characters,as I mentioned before.There will be 6 brand new faces,for a supposed total of 11 teams of 3 fighters,maybe with the addition of edit characters.The mid-boss should be Long,the evil Hizoku ninja,and the final boss should be the Japanese organizer of the tournament.
And finally,apart from the new gameplay system,the game should retain the MAX MODE system from the latest KOF,and as has been already mentioned,the new main fighter will not be Sie Kensou,but a new guy who presumably uses the power of wind.
Well,unless proven otherwise,this may be the only thing that can link us to the greatest 2D arcade fighting game of all.
Very soon, we will all appreciate the fighting spectacle that is The King Of Fighters 2003.
Peace Forever!SNK Playmore Forever!
You can't be finished!
Stand upyou simp!
RyuSVC Chaos:SNK Vs.Capcom
SNK Playmore2003 2D Forever!
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"Re(4):KOF 2003 thread, part II" 
"Re(2):Re(10):KOF 2003 thread, part II" 
Thanks for making this an intelligent discussion and yeah I'll shut up now. 
