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| Undead Fred 889th Post
 
Red Carpet Regular Member++
    
    
    
|  "Re(3):offtopic: teen titans theme song"
, posted Mon 22 Sep 16:51
quote:
It may sound silly, but I think a person can enjoy music even if they don't understand the language. Just my opinion of course.
Nah, I like Rammstein even though I just about never know what they're saying. I've read translations here and there, but I can't speak German, so I don't know what they're saying all the time.
As for Japanese music, I enjoy listening to the themes of my favorite anime, even though I pretty much don't know what they're saying at all (I know more Japanese than I do German, but know VERY little of either one).
As for Teen Titans, I don't know. I haven't seen the show. It looks like a lame attempt by American animators to make an "anime" (I know, I know, I'm one to talk......). Is the show any good, though?
THAT'S DANNY. His hometown is New Orleans.
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| Dr Baghead 2564th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
| "Re(5):offtopic: teen titans theme song" , posted Mon 22 Sep 18:39
quote:
This show is popular in Japan!? I watched one episode and I wasn't too happy with how they used anime conventions in it. It just seemed like a copycat that was trying really hard. No offense to the shows fans, I just find the show a little ingenuine. If you look at Samurai Jack, I think that's how an American show can use some anime conventions without just being a copycat.
did you not like them using anime conventions in it because they used them completely and totally wrong? or did you not like it simply because they used them, and not being an anime you decided it must be a no good flithy copycat rather then a stylistic homage.
And one episode?! That ain't enough to judge crap, buddy... I've seen all eight and we'd be lucky if any of the REAL anime imported over here had such great writing and fun characters.
But more importantly: Yes, the show is a hit in Japan... because in addition to being a fun, well writen show... many Japanese people are not unlike many of the anime fans here. They like American cartoons (including, and in most cases especially, Disney) because they're foreign and not what they're used it (sure, anime fans in the states make up cock and bull stories about how anime is some how better, but in reality that just doesn't hold up... and I can back that with real facts.)... it's a real mindf**k for "otaku" (read as: nerds so obessed with anime they blindly hate all other cartoons) who assume Japan is nothing but anime, anime, and more anime where anime is more popular then live-action and everyone reads manga 24-7, 365!
Devil May Cry:the movie - A ViewAskew Production?
Click the tag to see that Dante and more at Baghead's not-so-good custom figures page!
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| DarkZero 327th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(6):offtopic: teen titans theme song" , posted Mon 22 Sep 19:29
quote:
did you not like them using anime conventions in it because they used them completely and totally wrong? or did you not like it simply because they used them, and not being an anime you decided it must be a no good flithy copycat rather then a stylistic homage.
I was going to rant about why I hate the show in response to Undead Fred's "Is the show any good, though?", but I think you summed it up pretty well in that first sentence. Teen Titans takes a lot of anime cliches and expressions that have been used over and over by countless anime, but somehow still manages to screw them up. Much like the new He-Man cartoon, the fights are just a couple of beats too slow. They have no rhythm or energy to them and if the people behind this show didn't watch so much anime, I'd think that they were a bunch of suits from the '80s telling their artists that "That's just too darn fast for American kids. Ya gotta slow it down for'em or they won't even see it!"
There's also just a lack of innovation. I was really impressed by a fight in the last episode of Scrapped Princess that I watched and I think I just figured out why. It was FILLED with anime cliches, especially the "slash effect on black background" that Record of Lodoss War used every ten seconds as a cost saving measure, but it also added things that I hadn't seen before, and the new stuff worked well with the old cliches. Teen Titans just seems to throw in a few speed lines here, a sweat drop there, maybe a character falling over backwards for comedic effect every once and awhile... and that's it. They leave it there. Just like with He-Man, they apparently think that that's enough. And again, that's very strange, because Samurai Jack is on the same network and every episode is just a huge, wonderful ball of fight gimmicks.
There's also the fact that it's just another "They're just superheroes, not real people" DC cartoon, just like Superman & Batman Adventures and Justice League, but that seems to bother me more than anyone else. I think I just liked Batman: The Animated Series WAAAAY too much as a kid.
Duck Dodgers is awesome, though. I have no idea why I like this show so much, but I love it. It's nothing but the same cartoon plots that I've been seeing since the first time I laid eyes on a television, but the show's just... flawless, I guess.
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| Luisinan 462th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(1):I quit!" , posted Mon 22 Sep 20:34
In response to Dr. Baghead:
Yes, one episode is not enough to form one's opinion, but unfortunately, that one episode was enough for me. The story was run of the mill. The characters were mostly likeable but the anime conventions bugged me and again, the story wasn't strong. It was the episode when Starfire's sister came to visit.
What grates me about the anime conventions is that they serve no purpose other then to remind us how cool this cartoon is for being an American product with a blatantly obvious anime influence. How are the anime conventions used to enhance the show? I don't really see how they enhance the show.
I look at other American cartoons and see how they have co-opted anime conventions into their own storytelling styles. Samurai Jack and Spider-man co-op some anime conventions, but they don't just steal them for the sake of being cool like anime, they use them for a purpose. SJ really builds a great atmosphere with it's long shots, close up shots, hand and weapon shots-- all from anime but co-opted in such a way that these conventions are essential for Samurai Jack.
IMO Teen Titans would be no better nor worse if they removed the anime conventions. Remove them from Samurai Jack, and SJ would lose -a lot- of it's charm and style.
Bored? "160"
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| Dr Baghead 2567th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):I quit!" , posted Mon 22 Sep 20:48
quote:
In response to Dr. Baghead:
Yes, one episode is not enough to form one's opinion, but unfortunately, that one episode was enough for me. The story was run of the mill. The characters were mostly likeable but the anime conventions bugged me and again, the story wasn't strong. It was the episode when Starfire's sister came to visit.
What grates me about the anime conventions is that they serve no purpose other then to remind us how cool this cartoon is for being an American product with a blatantly obvious anime influence. How are the anime conventions used to enhance the show? I don't really see how they enhance the show.
I look at other American cartoons and see how they have co-opted anime conventions into their own storytelling styles. Samurai Jack and Spider-man co-op some anime conventions, but they don't just steal them for the sake of being cool like anime, they use them for a purpose. SJ really builds a great atmosphere with it's long shots, close up shots, hand and weapon shots-- all from anime but co-opted in such a way that these conventions are essential for Samurai Jack.
IMO Teen Titans would be no better nor worse if they removed the anime conventions. Remove them from Samurai Jack, and SJ would lose -a lot- of it's charm and style.
Starfire sister episode was a particularly bad episode it's like jugding all potato products on by eating one raw right out of the ground "it is dry and taste like dirt... so potato chips and fren,er, Freedom fried must be so as well!" (didn't meant to write that like Starfire, but oh well)
Mattel's Mr.Freeze is supposed to be hitting US stores sometime this week and boy oh boy I can't wait I hope I can find his googled variant because that one's just plan cool the ungoogled one is supposed to look like the Batman and Robin Mr.Freeze and while I plan to vote for the man I don't want him on my toy shelf man that election sure is crazy I think it's funny there are people trying to get Ahnuld discredited or calling him chicken for not running don't they see he's only going to win, assuming Bustamonte or Davis suddenly die, because of his movies If they want to discredit Arnold why not play Jingle All The Way Last Action Hero and the Sixth Day none stop on TBS the Superstation with a Twins Batman and Robin double feature on TNN that seems more logical then expecting people's minds to change based on his actual political views and speaking of Arnold movies I hope he makes a Kindergarten Cop 2 but they call it "Kindergarten Cop:It's not a 2mor!"
Devil May Cry:the movie - A ViewAskew Production?
Click the tag to see that Dante and more at Baghead's not-so-good custom figures page!
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| Dr Baghead 2570th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):I quit!" , posted Tue 23 Sep 09:18
quote:
I assume you mean MTV Spider-man....that's still on the air? I had hoped...um, assumed that it'd be canned by now.
I'm surprised a lot of MTV shows aren't canceled by now, I mean... Why is the New Tom Green Show still on the air? or at the very least why haven't they reformated it be like the old one.
But on the subject: How do Samurai Jack and MTV's Spider-man rip-off anime?
Samurai Jack seems more like an homage to Samurai films and old Sci-Fi movies then anime... is it because he's a Samurai? would 'Cowboy Jack' or 'Knight of the Round table Jack' have made it less anime? Is it because it's an animated adventure cartoon? Because Japan doesn't really own that genre. Is it the cool letter boxing of fighting? Because in that cause the Hulk movie is the biggest rip-off of anime EVER, it even had a boring science sub-plot and left with no real resolution! And speed lines aren't really an "anime" only thing, it's done in comics a lot too but it's actually an effictive way to show movement without a background, really it's being lazy if nothing else. And if it's because it's an homage to Samurai movies, does that make Cowboy Bebop an American cartoon rip-off with all the American movies it references?
And how the hell is MTV's Spider-man anything like anime? If it's because Peter has spikey hair, I hate to tell you but most kids these days do, if it's because of Mary Jane's eyes are rather large, that's a stylistic choice... if it's because it's poorly writen, makes no sense, and doesn't belong on TV then sure, it's just like anime!
Devil May Cry:the movie - A ViewAskew Production?
Click the tag to see that Dante and more at Baghead's not-so-good custom figures page!
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| Hungrywolf 2368th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):I quit!" , posted Tue 23 Sep 09:37
quote:
I assume you mean MTV Spider-man....that's still on the air? I had hoped...um, assumed that it'd be canned by now.
I'm surprised a lot of MTV shows aren't canceled by now, I mean... Why is the New Tom Green Show still on the air? or at the very least why haven't they reformated it be like the old one.
But on the subject: How do Samurai Jack and MTV's Spider-man rip-off anime?
Samurai Jack seems more like an homage to Samurai films and old Sci-Fi movies then anime... is it because he's a Samurai? would 'Cowboy Jack' or 'Knight of the Round table Jack' have made it less anime? Is it because it's an animated adventure cartoon? Because Japan doesn't really own that genre. Is it the cool letter boxing of fighting? Because in that cause the Hulk movie is the biggest rip-off of anime EVER, it even had a boring science sub-plot and left with no real resolution! And speed lines aren't really an "anime" only thing, it's done in comics a lot too but it's actually an effictive way to show movement without a background, really it's being lazy if nothing else. And if it's because it's an homage to Samurai movies, does that make Cowboy Bebop an American cartoon rip-off with all the American movies it references?
And how the hell is MTV's Spider-man anything like anime? If it's because Peter has spikey hair, I hate to tell you but most kids these days do, if it's because of Mary Jane's eyes are rather large, that's a stylistic choice... if it's because it's poorly writen, makes no sense, and doesn't belong on TV then sure, it's just like anime!
Very good points. Of the 3 or 4 episodes of Spider-man I attempted to watch, I didn't see any anime influences. I don't know of anything in Samurai Jack that I feel is anime influence either. I mean, the Samurai thing is a Japanese influence, of course, but it doesn't remind me of any anime.
"You're good baby I'll give you that.....but me? I'm magic!"
-Bullseye Daredevil movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
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| OYashiroForever 504th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(3):I quit!" , posted Tue 23 Sep 09:56
quote:
I assume you mean MTV Spider-man....that's still on the air? I had hoped...um, assumed that it'd be canned by now.
I like Teen Titans.
MTV Spiderman has been cancelled.. the last episode aired last week, I believe.
To answer your question, Dr. B, shows like Samurai Jack, Dexter, and the Powerpuffs borrow heavily from the anime/manga aesthetic. Big eyes, tiny noses, sweeping camera angles, split-screen zooms, gleam off of weapons, mech designs, etc. etc. Dexter and the Powerpuffs do it as a kind of tongue-in-cheek parody and Samurai Jack seems to do it as an homage to the obvious influences of the character and the story (same guy did both Dexter + Jack).
I haven't seen Teen Titans for myself, so I can't judge, but there are a lot of modern American cartoons that borrow tiny bits and pieces of the aesthetic and don't do anything productive with them. They're just there, serving no function but reminding you how much better both anime/manga and american cartoons used to be. I loved all of the 90s superhero cartoons (the "dark" portion of the Batman series, X-men, Spiderman), but the look and concept of the Teen Titans turned me off immediately.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| Dr Baghead 2572th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):I quit!" , posted Tue 23 Sep 10:11:
quote:
MTV Spiderman has been cancelled.. the last episode aired last week, I believe.
HOO-RAY!!!!
quote:
Big eyes, tiny noses,
Hate to break it to you but a lot of early American cartoon characters look like that too.
[Edit: www.jass.com/felix.html
Holy Shit!!! Felix the Cat is an anime character?!?! Look at his big eyes and tiny nose!!!! We've been ripping off anime since before there was an anime to rip-off... well, unless you're stupid and believe those wall scrolls from acient Japan really were 'the first mangas', but that must make tapestries in Europe the world's first comicbooks too!]
Craig McKraken (PPG designer) actually stated an early American cartoon as the source of the PpG's design, I'll look it up later but it's mostly fans who equate 'big eyes=anime'who decided they must be based in anime.
So is making a stylistic choice to down play the nose and use big eyes now required to be called "anime-rip-off" because it just seems like good graphic design work to me
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sweeping camera angles, split-screen zooms,
That's called "being cinametic" the Japanese didn't invent that.
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gleam off of weapons, mech designs, etc. etc. Dexter and the Powerpuffs do it as a kind of tongue-in-cheek parody
and most of the times you see that being done it's purposely mocking anime (ie-Dexter's giant robots, the PpG's Dy-Na-Mo mech... they rarely do it outside of a story mocking anime cliches... it's not like Val Hallen's guitar makes the anime glem or something)
quote:
and Samurai Jack seems to do it as an homage to the obvious influences of the character and the story
and that obvious homage seems more likely to be Kurasawa movies then anime. (not saying they couldn't have watched a few animes before deciding to make Jack, but it's painfully obvious old samurai flicks are more important to the series then anime)
quote:
(same guy did both Dexter + Jack).
You're preaching to the choir, man... he also directed early PpG episodes and is working on the Clone Wars shorts.
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I haven't seen Teen Titans for myself, so I can't judge,
Good then don't
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but there are a lot of modern American cartoons that borrow tiny bits and pieces of the aesthetic and don't do anything productive with them.
Are you sure you're not thinking of 'Totally Spies' because that's the French's fault
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They're just there, serving no function but reminding you how much better both anime/manga and american cartoons used to be.
In Teen Titans case they remind me how stupid anime fandom is, where if someone homages anime and isn't Japanese they're horrible people and we should ignore their show.... the irony is half the people who complain probably draw 'anime-style' and use the same effects wrong themselves.
quote:
I loved all of the 90s superhero cartoons (the "dark" portion of the Batman series, X-men, Spiderman), but the look and concept of the Teen Titans turned me off immediately.
Oh well, sucks to be you then! I'll enjoy one of the best cartoons on TV and you can go pout in the corner since they made a show for kids. Win-win I'd say!
Devil May Cry:the movie - A ViewAskew Production?
Click the tag to see that Dante and more at Baghead's not-so-good custom figures page!
[this message was edited by Dr Baghead on Tue 23 Sep 10:23] |
| Undead Fred 892th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(2):I quit!" , posted Tue 23 Sep 10:24
quote:
In response to Dr. Baghead:
Yes, one episode is not enough to form one's opinion, but unfortunately, that one episode was enough for me. The story was run of the mill. The characters were mostly likeable but the anime conventions bugged me and again, the story wasn't strong. It was the episode when Starfire's sister came to visit.
What grates me about the anime conventions is that they serve no purpose other then to remind us how cool this cartoon is for being an American product with a blatantly obvious anime influence. How are the anime conventions used to enhance the show? I don't really see how they enhance the show.
I look at other American cartoons and see how they have co-opted anime conventions into their own storytelling styles. Samurai Jack and Spider-man co-op some anime conventions, but they don't just steal them for the sake of being cool like anime, they use them for a purpose. SJ really builds a great atmosphere with it's long shots, close up shots, hand and weapon shots-- all from anime but co-opted in such a way that these conventions are essential for Samurai Jack.
IMO Teen Titans would be no better nor worse if they removed the anime conventions. Remove them from Samurai Jack, and SJ would lose -a lot- of it's charm and style.
That's the way the show comes off to me. Teen Titans and Totally Spies! both look like they just use anime conventions as a way to just look like pretend anime. "See? The characters have big eyes and they have that big drop of sweat by their heads when they're nervous, just like in those Japanese cartoons the kids like so much these days." Totally Spies! even seems like they're trying to reference the Powerpuff Girls, too... the girls have similar hair colors and hairstyles to the Powerpuffs. I don't know enough about the show, though. I only watched a little bit of TS! before I changed the channel.
Teen Titans might have interesting stories and all (which is good, of course), but the way they use anime conventions just makes it look like a gimmick. That's why it bothers me. It's great that the Japanese like an American show. I'm always happy to hear it when they like something from the US (as long as it's not Disney-related... heh heh). It's just that the way that TT and TS! use the anime style makes it look like "80's suits" are just trying to get kids to watch because they think it's Japanese.
I may give TT a chance sometime, but I'm avoiding TS!
THAT'S DANNY. His hometown is New Orleans.
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| Luisinan 463th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(5):I quit!" , posted Tue 23 Sep 10:42
Dang Dr. B, no need to get all defensive.
Let me just repeat my main points and be done with this thread. IMO, Teen Titans just uses the anime influence as a gimmick. That is, there is no point for the anime conventions being in the show and if you take the anime influence out, the show would be no better or worse.
Samurai Jack, IMO, uses some anime conventions to form it's storytelling style. Anime exaggerates a lot to produce an emotional effect on the viewer. While 'conventional' western cartoon storytelling is more conventional in that there is less exaggeration and more emphasis in clarity- the point being that western storytellers want to be very clear on what is happening in the story. That's why you see a lot of boring, generic, medium-long shots in American cartoons because those shots convey the best amount of information without being too wasteful.
SJ, IMO uses both western and anime conventions in it's storytelling. It uses the western convnetions to tell clarify what is happening in the story. And it uses anime conventions to produce a certain mood. Just watch any episode of SJ and examine the camera angles, the size of the shots (long, medium, close up), and examine what the camera is focusing on and how the action is conveyed. IMO, those are the things that SJ mainly borrows from anime. YMMV though (your milage may vary).
It's not just about 'the big eyes' etc. Power Puff Girls does some of the same things. Just look at what the camera focuses on in PPG and what the animators choose to exaggerate in the show. They use anime conventions too, but PPG, like SJ, co-op these conventions to create their own storytelling style. IMO, I don't think Teen Titans does that. But enough, I'll drop it.
Bored? "160"
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| DarkZero 330th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(5):I quit!" , posted Tue 23 Sep 11:40
quote:
Oh well, sucks to be you then! I'll enjoy one of the best cartoons on TV and you can go pout in the corner since they made a show for kids. Win-win I'd say!
Baghead getting defensive, taking people's comments out of context, and using strawman arguments to make barely coherent points? Must be a day of the week. I'm getting tired of seeing good discussions obscured by double posts from someone that does nothing but attack others.
For one thing, as I've said, you're taking everyone's arguments out of context. No one here, as far as I've seen, is upset that Teen Titans is "ripping off anime". I think you're reading some other board to find stupid comments and then pretending that Luisinan said them. I'd be shocked at this if I hadn't been seeing it once a week or so for the last few months.
The real criticism that we have for Teen Titans is the same one that we have for a lot of anime: they just take the tired old anime conventions and expect us to find them interesting. The show offers big eyes, sweat drops, speedlines, single color backgrounds, characters falling over, and not much else. Have you really never heard of an anime being criticized like this? Every review of a mediocre anime seems to contain some variation of the same paragraph: "Offers nothing but the tired old cliches. Expect lots of sword slashes on black backgrounds, characters screaming out attack names in front of flashy painted backgrounds, and other cost saving attempts at style." If an anime is not innovative at all, its fansubs lie unwatched on some poor loser's IRC Fserv and the few that were foolish enough to watch it make occasional jokes about it. If an American cartoon is not innovative, it's assumed to be perfect because hating anything anime and loving every American cartoon seems to have recently become some sort of animation and video game forum counterculture. Liking the show and defending it is fine, but you're becoming as shrill and incoherent as a GameCube fanboy on an Xbox board. Everyone's being civil (except me, as of now), you should attempt the same.
And finally, one side note:
quote:
and Samurai Jack seems to do it as an homage to the obvious influences of the character and the story
and that obvious homage seems more likely to be Kurasawa movies then anime. (not saying they couldn't have watched a few animes before deciding to make Jack, but it's painfully obvious old samurai flicks are more important to the series then anime)
Actually, the older samurai movies, such as Kurosawa's various films and the Zatoichi films, focused much more often on quick, realistic action than on the sort of flashy, extended battles that Samurai Jack has. Its hero is definitely based on old samurai movies, but it's action has a lot more in common with newer anime and Hong Kong action movies. There are definitely some anime conventions used in the show, but they're used very well and alongside a lot of quality original ideas, much like the American action movie bits that they use in the show, like the fight on top of the train and the Predator homage. Come to think of it, that's what we'd like to see more of in Teen Titans. It would work better if they took the anime bits that would work well in the show and used them alongside original ideas instead of just throwing some old anime expression into the punchline of every joke.
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| Undead Fred 896th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(6):I quit!" , posted Tue 23 Sep 13:48
quote:
For one thing, as I've said, you're taking everyone's arguments out of context. No one here, as far as I've seen, is upset that Teen Titans is "ripping off anime". I think you're reading some other board to find stupid comments and then pretending that Luisinan said them. I'd be shocked at this if I hadn't been seeing it once a week or so for the last few months.
The real criticism that we have for Teen Titans is the same one that we have for a lot of anime: they just take the tired old anime conventions and expect us to find them interesting. The show offers big eyes, sweat drops, speedlines, single color backgrounds, characters falling over, and not much else. Have you really never heard of an anime being criticized like this? Every review of a mediocre anime seems to contain some variation of the same paragraph: "Offers nothing but the tired old cliches. Expect lots of sword slashes on black backgrounds, characters screaming out attack names in front of flashy painted backgrounds, and other cost saving attempts at style." If an anime is not innovative at all, its fansubs lie unwatched on some poor loser's IRC Fserv and the few that were foolish enough to watch it make occasional jokes about it. If an American cartoon is not innovative, it's assumed to be perfect because hating anything anime and loving every American cartoon seems to have recently become some sort of animation and video game forum counterculture. Liking the show and defending it is fine, but you're becoming as shrill and incoherent as a GameCube fanboy on an Xbox board. Everyone's being civil (except me, as of now), you should attempt the same.
There you go. That about sums it all up perfectly. I think the point we're making is that the "anime style" of Teen Titans either comes off as an empty cliche or just a gimmick and then Baghead gets defensive. If you like the show, that's great. Just calm down, please. I don't expect you to agree with us, just try not to get so worked up over this. I know I've been totally calm about this the whole time... Let's just let this whole burned-up flamed-out thread cool off.
THAT'S DANNY. His hometown is New Orleans.
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