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| Grave 619th Post
 
Red Carpet Regular Member
  
    
    
|  "Re(8):Snk vs Cap = Crap??"
, posted Thu 28 Aug 15:41
quote:
I know Playmore may have not had much choice but to use the MVS hardware on this. But ugh. It's so old and outdated. I think the graphics are ugly.
I don't know. Does non-state of the art automatically mean bad? I prefer the look of SvCC to that of CvS2, easily. The sprites look a lot better together overall than in CvS2... nobody sticks out quite like Morrigan did. And I like the look of the SF character... it kinda reminds me of SSF2T, which is a good thing. People might bitch about pixellation and what-not, but I think the game looks damn good in action. Especially on a ridiculously large projector. If it stands up even on that, I guess it passes the test for me...
quote:
The gameplay is actually pretty good. Depending on the machine it's on. My arcade has the game on an old Tekken 4 machine that the joystick sticks constantly.
If you like the gameplay, you can't think it's too crappy, can you?
quote:
And the stages are lousy. Too pixelated and totally uninteresting. Except for Nude Place(why is it called that? O_o) Station obsolete and Factory abandoned are some of the ugliest stages I've seen since KOF 2k1.
The stages are a bit dull, but not bad. They don't jump out and make you take notice, but some of them are pretty weak. I like the forest one a lot, though.
quote:
This game is 50/50 with me. I'm gonna go play more tomorrow. Just in case my arcade decides to get rid of it so soon.
I'm just curious, how much time have you logged into it, and how well do you know the gameplay systems? A friend of mine tore the game apart until I talked to him about it... turns out he didn't know much about anything going on, had no clue about the guard cancel front step, or what MAX could allow for.
The difficulty on the machine he played on was turned up ridiculously high, too... the second one he played on he liked better, heh.
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| Luisinan 419th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(9):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 16:06
Strangely enough, I think this game may be easy for novice players to pick up. It is pretty simple (compared to GGXX, 3S, MvC2 and CvS2 and even KOF!). But I don't know if it's deep enough for it to remain popular for a long time. CvS2 and Mvc2 remain popular because there are so many options and characters. That's the biggest weakness in this game IMO. The lack of play options. There is some variety in the character selection but even then, it seems you can play everyone the same way-- sort of. Don't want to get nailed for making too big of generalizations. The control problems are weird. I don't think control is a problem, it's just a bit different and less forgiving.
The game does feel very old school yet not too old school. I am happy about it. I think other games have spoiled us and raised our expectations too high, that's why we weren't so "WOWED" by this game. But you have to consider this-- other 2D fighter franchises have been going on for a LONG time. The first KOF sucked, the first SFA sucked, the first SF3 sucked, the first CvS sucked (sorta sucked). For a 'first' game, SvC is nice. I think I like the gameplay in SvC1 then in CvS1. CvS1 was just a lot shinier and more exciting cause we got so many 'brand new' SNK sprites and it was the first of the inter company versus games.
I feel excited- like when I first saw SFA, SFA2 and SF3. I actually look much forward to going to the arcades. The only downside is that I won't discover any new characters or storylines when I go and play it- the internet has ruined that surprise!
Bored? "160"
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| Grave 620th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 18:33
quote:
But I don't know if it's deep enough for it to remain popular for a long time. CvS2 and Mvc2 remain popular because there are so many options and characters. That's the biggest weakness in this game IMO. The lack of play options.
Honestly, I don't feel the need for a fighting game to have 50+ characters or 6 different gameplay systems. I think sometimes simple is better. The two fighting games I play the most are probably SSF2T and Garou, and neither of them have absolutely massive, ludicrious character rosters, or a lot of options for gameplay modes. Unless you think 3 different TOP spots makes gameplay that much different.
Personally, I think MvC2 remains popular because when you press buttons, lots of people jump around and pretty things happen. But when I bitch about MvC2 I could go on for days, and then I'll probably bitch for days about the fire I take for the initial bitching, and I'm going to stop right here. 
The options in CvS2 are fun, but are they really that important? I still would have liked the game with just one gameplay system, but the others are good to keep things exciting. Not necessary, but good.
quote:
The control problems are weird. I don't think control is a problem, it's just a bit different and less forgiving.
The game didn't seem to let me get away with being as sloppy as I usually am, no...
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the first SFA sucked
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the first SF3 sucked
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I feel excited- like when I first saw SFA, SFA2 and SF3. I actually look much forward to going to the arcades. The only downside is that I won't discover any new characters or storylines when I go and play it- the internet has ruined that surprise!
Ha. The internet ruins everything. If you like to see new movies and play RPGs, you have to be too careful, unless you want your plots totally destroyed. I even had the end of the new GB Castlevania ruined for me in normal IRC conversation. Grr.
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| VManOfMana
202th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(3):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 19:04:
Well, I think I have played the game good enough to have an opinion.
I think its crap. (Normally I wouldn't describe the game as crap, but I am reusing the words of the thread topic).
Hit detection is pretty bad. I have seen Chun Li's standing fierce go thru my opponent more than once, get thrown through crouching roundhouses and I have seen attacks hit me without the sprites touching each other. Zero's spinning blade is the prime example, with him crossing me up when the blade is above him, not below him.
Zero is broken. Very broken. If you thought Sagat and Blanka are broken in CvS2 you have seen nothing. Sagat's CvS2 crouching fierce is nothing comapred to Zero's sweep. Priority is tremendous, it can counter almost any non-jab move after blocking, it combos with the spinning spear and if blocked, its safe from the guard cancel dash. Also, his bomb helper crossup is pretty stupid (unblockable after a setup), his spinning air attack is a perfect crossup, and I am not even mentioning his infinite.
Guard Cancel Dash is retarded. Except for Zero's spear sweep you can safely counter anything given that you won't dash into a multiple hit attack/combo. Besides, the double forward version is not that hard to do plus it costs almost no meter. When you have a move that makes any knowledge on beefy moves, footsies and frame advantages useless, something is wrong.
Want to know how is a game of me (Chun Li) vs. a friend (Zero)? Walk back and forth for 10 seconds until one of use decides to crossup (usually me). Once we are close, I have to wait for him to try to sweep to see if I can guard cancel dash and hit him (with something else than a short/jab). If he sweeps me, its SAFE chip damage with a spinning spear + sweep (Guard Cancel Dash cannot hit the sweep at that distance) or bomb trap. So all the game is about waiting for him to attack so I can guard cancel, and he is waiting for me to attack so he can sweep. Turtle hell. On both sides.
The game is good for a little fun for a little while, but other than that I cannot take it seriously. It is not that it is a "simpler" game, its just that its simplicity + balance + hit detection + other problems = retarded. There are others "simple" games out there that are much better (Super Turbo, Samurai Shodown II).
I expected better of this game. Playmore or whoever that is has to start fixing things up not with the graphics, but the gameplay. When you have a god-tier of two characters and one or two-move infinites in a "traditional" fighter (and Geese's doesn't need MAX for what I understand), there is something WRONG in your games.
Edits: some sentences didn't even make sense ^_^;;
Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Thu 28 Aug 21:25] |
| TiamatRoar 453th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(4):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 19:30
quote:
It's not like 3S doesn't have 100% combos involving supers. I don't see the big deal if it's a MAX combo. Even KOF 2k2 has 100% MAX combos.
You might also say...
Chunli or Magneto + You = WIN!
No, Chunli and Magneto are powerful, but I've yet to hear anyone claim they're broken. Meanwhile, I've heard and seen Zero and Geese cheese and it is quite the extreme cheese, indeed. Buktooth, Viscant, and even Beelzebubble (who for a long time was borderline SNK fanboy and flaming Buktooth for claiming that Zero and Geese were broken, until he experienced it himself) all gave very detailed reports on the brokeness of Geese and Zero.
Oh, and I was being nice. Geese has a NON MAX MODE INFINITE. It's not just his 100% max mode combo. I only brought up the 100% max mode combo because it was in reply to the statement, "I hope there are cool max mode combos!" Geese does not need max mode to KICK YOUR ASS even when you're at full life and win the round.
...and that infinite of his is absurdedly simple.
Oh yea, Zero has a nonmax mode infinite too.
What's really sad is that many high level players state that Geese and Zero would probably be broken even without the infinites (they have all the tools needed for solid rushdown in a game where anyone who's halfway decent at guard cancel kills anyone elses' rush down besides Geese's and Zero's). It's just that the infinites and 100% combos make them even worse.
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
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| Rugalbernstein 4445th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
     
  
| "Re(7):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20:32:
quote:
What, you think that's gonna stop the complaining any? The idea ran through my head, but... nah. The people who don't like it and insist that the game is broken aren't going to care.
I'm also amazed somebody is more or less defending Marvel vs. Capcom 2, which is the most broken fighting game in history. I don't hate the game, it's especially good at parties, but I mean, talk about a double standard. It's probably because it's nice and flashy... "Ooh, pretty!"
Edit: Now, I'm sure this is going to be met with a senselessly long post defending Marvel vs. Capcom 2 with all sorts of bizarre technical babble, but I don't care. I don't normally whine or complain about games, but if bitching is good enough for the goose, it's good enough for me.
Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by Rugalbernstein on Thu 28 Aug 20:39] |
| emeraldazn
146th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20:38:
ok...ppl are saying geese's C, F+D, dash C, F+D repeat and zero's air dp as if its a revolution.. these are known for a while now...
and when i said "i hope everyone has a cool max combo" (NOT i hope there are cool max combos..sigh), i meant chars like earthquake, guile, ryu, akuma, ken..chars that i cant seem to think they would have max combos. we already know kasumi, iori, geese, kyo, terry, kim, etc.. (although the kof chars..most of them still retain their kof2k2 bc combos with just some additional canceling ability)
[this message was edited by emeraldazn on Thu 28 Aug 20:42] |
| Spoon
78th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20:54
quote:
It's just that the infinites and 100% combos make them even worse.
Agreed, easy infinites and 100%'s are no fun in competition.
You should see GGXX #Reload (yes, Reload, which was supposed to FIX problems...) with Faust: [close s.S, c.HS xx HCF+K (hold back)]xN or until they Burst out... that's THREE MOVES, no supers, no fancy setup, and the only part that's actually hard to time is linking the S after reeling them in, and even that isn't THAT hard.
And for those that say, "If you hate this game, why play it?", well, this has been said a million times, but it's because we care. Many of us care about the history behind this, and we wanted to see this game be the next best thing, etc. It's not out of pure spite that we say this stuff. Usually, anyway.
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| OYashiroForever 452th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(7):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 21:32
quote:
Spoon, I agree with much of what you say (and THANK YOU for speaking constructively) but it's essentially my view that these things are made for fun (which they are, games are made to entertain) and if somebody needs to use an infinate to win, they defeat the purpose of the game. I feel the same way about "cheat codes" and the like. I take games very seriously, otherwise I wouldn't squander massive amounts of money on them, but I think some people lose touch with reality when it comes to some aspects of them, as they do with any hobby.
I'd chime in here with my usual response, but I hardly even think it's necessary anymore. People play fighting games for different reasons. Some play "just for kicks", which is perfectly fine so long as you don't shun/denigrate/look down the other kind of people... those who play these games competitively and to win. Naturally, the reverse applies as well. People who play competitively need to acknowledge that for those playing for shits and giggles, games like Killer Instinct and Tekken 4 are hella fun.
As a game to play for fun, SvCC is great: great character interaction, fanboyish roster, etc. good times. As a game to be played seriously at a competitive level, all signs are pointing to the game being, shall we say, less than stellar. I haven't played it enough personally to make any kind of judgment either way, but from what I've seen and read, it doesn't look good.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| VManOfMana
202th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(8):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 21:40
quote:
I'm also amazed somebody is more or less defending Marvel vs. Capcom 2, which is the most broken fighting game in history. I don't hate the game, it's especially good at parties, but I mean, talk about a double standard. It's probably because it's nice and flashy... "Ooh, pretty!"
Well, now you got a new champ in broken games: SvC.
In MvC2's defense (and I am not a serious MvC2 player myself - its *low* in my list), the main difference is that MvC2's engine is so flexible that things like infinites are no surprise. On the other hand, in SvC, a game where you dont have air combos, double hyper combos, assists, air dashing, super cancel or things like that, infinites are not expected to exist. Even less one or two moves infinites, and even less them being found so fast. Third Strike has 100% combos, but either they are unpractically impossible to set up, or they work only under certain characters and include a dizzy, meaning that your combo is actually two combos which count as one because of the dizzy, and involve a lot more than just two moves. Makoto's 100% combo on Gouki include grabbing, standing fierces, supers (and you need to pick the correct one), dash under the opponent, doing shoryuken motions, jumping, and dizzying. A little more complex than Geese and Zero's infinites, and I bet it took more than three weeks to be found out.
And there is a main difference between a cheat code and an SvC infinite (and even an inifnite in other games): you are not doing anything illegal on an SvC infinite. You are not doing anything against the game's basic design, nor you are overstretching the game's rules like in the case of Roll Cancelling in CvS2 or crouch cancel infinites in Alpha 3. These infinites are the product of poor game design and testing, and that's what makes the game suck.
Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
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| Phoenix
27th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 21:49:
quote:
No, Chunli and Magneto are powerful, but I've yet to hear anyone claim they're broken. Meanwhile, I've heard and seen Zero and Geese cheese and it is quite the extreme cheese, indeed. Buktooth, Viscant, and even Beelzebubble (who for a long time was borderline SNK fanboy and flaming Buktooth for claiming that Zero and Geese were broken, until he experienced it himself) all gave very detailed reports on the brokeness of Geese and Zero.
Oh, and I was being nice. Geese has a NON MAX MODE INFINITE. It's not just his 100% max mode combo. I only brought up the 100% max mode combo because it was in reply to the statement, "I hope there are cool max mode combos!" Geese does not need max mode to KICK YOUR ASS even when you're at full life and win the round.
...and that infinite of his is absurdedly simple.
Oh yea, Zero has a nonmax mode infinite too.
What's really sad is that many high level players state that Geese and Zero would probably be broken even without the infinites (they have all the tools needed for solid rushdown in a game where anyone who's halfway decent at guard cancel kills anyone elses' rush down besides Geese's and Zero's). It's just that the infinites and 100% combos make them even worse.
No offense, but did you really think that I didn't know about the infinites? You're acting as if the Zero and Geese infinites haven't been posted on the net and raved about several billion times already. Btw, THX FOR STATING THE OBVIOUS and for being so nice. =P
"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
[this message was edited by Phoenix on Thu 28 Aug 21:51] |
| Phoenix
27th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(9):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 22:00
quote:
I'm also amazed somebody is more or less defending Marvel vs. Capcom 2, which is the most broken fighting game in history. I don't hate the game, it's especially good at parties, but I mean, talk about a double standard. It's probably because it's nice and flashy... "Ooh, pretty!"
Well, now you got a new champ in broken games: SvC.
In MvC2's defense (and I am not a serious MvC2 player myself - its *low* in my list), the main difference is that MvC2's engine is so flexible that things like infinites are no surprise. On the other hand, in SvC, a game where you dont have air combos, double hyper combos, assists, air dashing, super cancel or things like that, infinites are not expected to exist. Even less one or two moves infinites, and even less them being found so fast. Third Strike has 100% combos, but either they are unpractically impossible to set up, or they work only under certain characters and include a dizzy, meaning that your combo is actually two combos which count as one because of the dizzy, and involve a lot more than just two moves. Makoto's 100% combo on Gouki include grabbing, standing fierces, supers (and you need to pick the correct one), dash under the opponent, doing shoryuken motions, jumping, and dizzying. A little more complex than Geese and Zero's infinites, and I bet it took more than three weeks to be found out.
And there is a main difference between a cheat code and an SvC infinite (and even an inifnite in other games): you are not doing anything illegal on an SvC infinite. You are not doing anything against the game's basic design, nor you are overstretching the game's rules like in the case of Roll Cancelling in CvS2 or crouch cancel infinites in Alpha 3. These infinites are the product of poor game design and testing, and that's what makes the game suck.
Is banning Zero and Geese really that hard? They could ban all the secret bosses in the tournaments and I wouldn't care. And let's not bring up Alpha 3's hit detection and infinites.
"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
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| OYashiroForever 455th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(9):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 22:16:
quote:
The phrase "shits and giggles" isn't exactly the most respectful towards people who play "just for kicks".. and as a player who cares more about having fun than winning, I don't think I'm half bad. Although it probably isn't intentional, you pretty frequently stratify the issue in to the "fighting game elite", the "high-level players", who are "good", and those who play for "shits and giggles". Cough.
I would tend to agree, Rugal... you're no slouch. However, in comparison to the top players, guys like you and I suck. I know... I've played many of the best and been thoroughly beaten. It's not intended as an insult, just the bare truth. I've accepted the fact that I'm a mediocre player. Granted, not every "serious, competitive" player is better than every "just for fun" player (natural talent certainly plays a hand), but a statistically significant portion would be.
I always pick my words very carefully. People who play "for fun" are rarely better-than-average players. Why? I'll let Mr. David Sirlin, competitive SF player and all-around good guy, answer that one for me (be warned, he uses the word "scrub" quite frequently which many people don't like):
"Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he’s again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules." (Sirlin, sirlin.net
As for the crouch-cancel infinites and roll cancels, they're actually fairly difficult to do, especially in the heat of battle. Tiger-Kneeing Zero's anti-air move and doing C, F+B with Geese isn't. It's like playing Slash Sogetsu in Amakusa Kourin... yes, it takes a little bit of talent to correctly place your Raged water spouts, but not much.
Edit: Not even going to bother defending MvC2... big difference between exciting broken and boring broken (MvC2 vs. CvS1).
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
[this message was edited by OYashiroForever on Thu 28 Aug 22:23] |
| TiamatRoar 456th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 08:04:
quote:
Ugh, as I expected. As if the roll cancel or crouch cancel infinites aren't bugs due to "sloppy testing and design", either. ;D I think somebody is bitter because they lost with Chun-Li.
Hardly. I go 50/50 on my matches against Zero and 75/25 on my matches against Geese.
Read my post again. Roll Cancelling and crouch cancel infinites (and to a lesser degree Kara Cancelling grabs in 3S) are in the gray zone because although they still fit within the game's rule, they use them in "special" situations. So, these are the product of players understanding the engnine so much that they "outsmart" the designers, and they certainly are not obvious things to do (how long it took to discover RC? 1.5 - 2 years?)
In SvC, you don't have to stretch any rules to create the infinites.
I've learned to never get into extended arguments about SNK with anyone who's nick name contains Rugal, Kyo, or Terry in it, or anyone who's Av is that of an SNK main character good guy (though oddly enough, people with Iori as an avatar are usually fine).
In fact, it's generally better to stay away from anyone who's name is based off of a fighting game main character (good or bad guy) in general. And in some cases, even secondaries. People who's names are based off of vague characters like say, Baby Bonnie Hood, are usually fine, though. Oh, and an exception to this rule seems to be anyone who's female. I've yet to run into a fanboyish girl despite seeing many of them take up names of main characters as their message board names.
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Fri 29 Aug 08:08] |
| Juan 3414th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "STOP ALL THE DOWNLOADING!" , posted Fri 29 Aug 08:29:
Judging people from avatars? no fair. Specially coming from a person with an oversized avatar of an street fighter 1 quote and a signature pointing to a broken link to an street fighter plot faq?
Pot calling kettle!
Edit: HELP COMPUTER!
quote:
I've learned to never get into extended arguments about SNK with anyone who's nick name contains Rugal, Kyo, or Terry in it, or anyone who's Av is that of an SNK main character good guy (though oddly enough, people with Iori as an avatar are usually fine).
In fact, it's generally better to stay away from anyone who's name is based off of a fighting game main character (good or bad guy) in general. And in some cases, even secondaries. People who's names are based off of vague characters like say, Baby Bonnie Hood, are usually fine, though. Oh, and an exception to this rule seems to be anyone who's female. I've yet to run into a fanboyish girl despite seeing many of them take up names of main characters as their message board names.
im a computar
[this message was edited by Juan on Fri 29 Aug 08:30] |
| Juan 3415th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "its a trap" , posted Fri 29 Aug 08:42:
The whole avatar thing was uncalled for. woosh.
I would also like to point out that Sushi Bunny might be not human, but an evil macro script, note the original post:
Hello everybody,
Long time no write here. Well, I moved into a new apartment just minutes away from Capcom, and it seems nice there. Anyways, my brother said at a local Golfland, there's an arcade version of this, and he said it was crap. I dunno. I was gonna try it, but my comic deadline for my story kept nagging in my head. Any comments?
sssushi :O)
This is almost identical to a post regarding the matrix reloaded sucking and how his friend (or brother or uncle or family dog, or santa claus) saw it before everyone else. His next post will probably be about how a friend of his (or brother or uncle or family dog, or santa claus) saw the movie in a super secret screening and he said IT SUCKED HARD CORE. Its a castlevania pattern!
ITS A TRAP PEOPLE
Edit: detective
quote:
That's an actual Battletoads quote, actually :) I got it when I beat the game and I just had to take a screenshot because it was so hilariously corny.
Oh, and the link to the plot guide works now, by the way. And anyone who's read it thoroughly should be able to tell that I don't exactly enjoy a lot of Street Fighter's plot. I just chronicle it. You can pretty much find a comment from me saying "Why did you do that, Capcom!?" in nearly every other character bio or so.
im a computar
[this message was edited by Juan on Fri 29 Aug 08:44] |
| Phoenix
29th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 09:10:
quote:
Eh, fine. Ditch the avatar comments. I suppose maybe I just... [delete]. Blech, might as well not risk starting things up again.
Ah well. Getting back on topic,
Is banning Zero and Geese really that hard? They could ban all the secret bosses in the tournaments and I wouldn't care. And let's not bring up Alpha 3's hit detection and infinites.
Not that I'm completely sure, but considering how popular Zero and Geese as characters are (NOT how popular as broken infinite crazy rushdown machines they are), banning them from SvC tournaments when so many people were looking forward to playing as them would probably make the game... significantly less popular. Especially when they offer a very significantly different style of gameplay and fighting style (as opposed to say, banning Akuma from Super Turbo, where you don't lose much variety because he was basically just Ryu on super duper ultra magnificent stereoids, anyway). It could hurt the tournament scene. Or maybe it won't. I'm not exactly a professor regarding what makes a game popular for tournaments and what doesn't.
Never the less banning those two would solve a lot of the problems, seeing as how everybody and their dogs are complaining about Zero and Geese. I'm sure the fans will see how it's beneficial in the long run.
For some reason, it seems that only the people who diss the hell out of this game are going "but banning them would hurt the tournament scene" whereas the people who love the game are going "yeah, we should ban those two."
Btw, don't you have a Juni, Juli, doll avatar at SRK? I'm just gonna leave it at that.
"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
[this message was edited by Phoenix on Fri 29 Aug 09:29] |
| TiamatRoar 459th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(3):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 09:27:
quote:
Never the less banning those two would solve a lot of the problems, seeing as how everybody and their dogs are complaining about Zero and Geese. I'm sure the fans will see how it's beneficial in the long run.
For some reason, it seems that only the people who diss the hell out of this game are going "but banning them would hurt the tournament scene" whereas the people who love the game are going "yeah, we should ban those two."
I've seen several people bash the game who think Zero and Geese should be banned (typically with comments like "The game will still suck without them, but at least it'll suck less. And hey, the game's still less boring than CvS2, even if that's not saying much, so they just have to make it less broken by getting rid of Geese and Zero"), and several people who love the game and say "Geese and Zero shouldn't be banned. You just have to find counter strategies to them." so I'm not sure how much that applies.
quote:
Btw, don't you have a Juni, Juli, doll avatar at SRK? So wouldn't what you said apply to you- if it's even true?
Does it apply to me? If it's true, and if it does, that'd be great! Since I said this:
"People who's names are based off of vague characters like say, Baby Bonnie Hood, are usually fine, though."
Juni and Juli are pretty vague. Not exactly the most mainstream characters in the world. My avatar at shoryuken.com, however, is not Juli and Juni. It's Jianyu, Xiayu, and Fevrier. Characters so vague that their names aren't even in the game (and heck, a sprite for Jianyu doesn't even exist! And people still are arguing about how exactly to spell their names, even!). So I'd love it if it applied to me :D ...alas, I said to withdraw my comment about the avatars, though. Doh!
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Fri 29 Aug 09:31] |
| RugalBernstein 4455th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 09:45:
quote:
"People who's names are based off of vague characters like say, Baby Bonnie Hood, are usually fine, though."
Serious double standard there; you also seem to forget I've frequently stuck up for Capcom vs. SNK 2 in the past. I don't prefer either company as such, and in fact, my original name here was going to be "Dracula_Hyakushaku", but at the time, it was a fighting-game centric board, so I thought I should "fit with the theme". It seems that whenever things get ugly, everything goes to fanboy name-calling. You used to bitch at people because they DARED to get an aspect of the Street Fighter "storyline" wrong... "Yes, Zangief is gay, whether you like it or not! He has a picture of Balrog on his mirror, blah blah blah.." but wait, that's okay, because you currently use a Battletoads avatar featuring the Dark Queen, and not your old Juli avatar! Since it's an obscure character, you are obviously less of a fan boy and are of higher moral standing and integrity than I! (seems to me obsessing over obscure characters nobody cares about would make you more of a fan-boy, but I won't bring that issue in, because it doesn't bode well for me. ;D) Oh, and I withdraw all these previous comments, like you.
Edit: Also, Orochiyashiro, I actually agree with your original post more than this excerpt... his argument is fundamentally flawed at its base; in essence, he says "whatever goes, goes, when it comes to "high level play"; this is probably to justify it when some poor player comes in and is willing to give a game a try and some asshole comes along and double perfects him for "shits and giggles", or more likely to boost his abysmal ego. The only logical reason he could be against an "easy to do infinate" is because it "levels the playing field" and would actually give somebody of average or above average ability a chance of beating somebody who obsesses over the game (thus damaging their delicate ego and causing them to call people "scrubs")
Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Fri 29 Aug 09:58] |
| TiamatRoar 460th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:05:
quote:
Serious double standard there; you also seem to forget I've frequently stuck up for Capcom vs. SNK 2 in the past.
It actually didn't have anything to do with what company or game you defended so much as that "I think you just lost too much with Chun-Li" comment. Heaven forbid that someone might actually have a valid complaint about the game. Instead, you just brush it off and blame it on that person's playing skills when you never saw that person actually play.
quote:
You used to bitch at people because they DARED to get an aspect of the Street Fighter "storyline" wrong... "Yes, Zangief is gay, whether you like it or not! He has a picture of Balrog on his mirror, blah blah blah.." but wait, that's okay, because you currently use a Battletoads avatar featuring the Dark Queen, and not your old Juli avatar! Since it's an obscure character, you are obviously less of a fan boy and are of higher moral standing and integrity than I! (seems to me obsessing over obscure characters nobody cares about would make you more of a fan-boy, but I won't bring that issue in, because it doesn't bode well for me. ;D)
People who said that Zangief wasn't gay always made sure to include "Tiamat is a bullshitting liar!" or something along those lines. Thus, you can expect me to lash out in retaliation in kind. They strike first, I strike back harder. I take personal attacks on my integrity very seriously (or at least, personal attacks that contain stuff like "That author of that plot guide is making up stuff and pulling it out of his ass."
quote:
Also, Orochiyashiro, I actually agree with your original post more than this excerpt... his argument is fundamentally flawed at its base; in essence, he says "whatever goes, goes, when it comes to "high level play"; this is probably to justify it when some poor player comes in and is willing to give a game a try and some asshole comes along and double perfects him for "shits and giggles", or more likely to boost his abysmal ego. The only logical reason he could be against an "easy to do infinate" is because it "levels the playing field" and would actually give somebody of average or above average ability a chance of beating somebody who obsesses over the game (thus damaging their delicate ego and causing them to call people "scrubs")
Not that I'm a high level player, but if the person really IS a high level player playing with the "Do anything to win" mentality in this case, then that person would already be playing as Geese or Zero and making full use of their infinites. Thus, when he loses to someone else using Geese or Zero's infinites, instead of the "That's cheap!" reaction, the typical high level player will think, "I'm winning for really lame reasons and I just lost for that same lame reason." At least, that's the tone I've seen when I asked various people about it.
On the alternate scenario, maybe the high level player is purposefully playing as a lower tier character (in this case, not Geese or Zero). In this case, if the high level player loses, the typical thought pattern would probably be something like "Bleh, I should have chosen Geese/Zero, too."
In either scenario, the high level player won't call the other person a scrub. In fact, I've never seen that term used to describe the brokenness of SvC. "Cheese" is typically the word I've seen, which is why I myself made sure to include "half-decent" when I talked about the playing skill required. In fact, I rarely even see "Cheap" used. Because Geese and Zero aren't really that cheap in that it actually takes a little work to use them correctly (the main problem being that no amount of work can make other characters stack up to a decent Geese or Zero at all). One of the most powerful assets of Geese and Zero is their ability to give a good rushdown against guard cancel while no one else can (or if they can, no one's been able to find out how, yet. And they've been searching pretty hard), and scrubs... well, they can't guard cancel well. So the fact that a scrub can't guard cancel well means they're vulnerable to ANY offense, and Geese/Zero isn't needed to anhilate the scrub, thus it isn't a big deal if the scrub is using Geese or Zero and the high level player is not, because the scrub will still fall to the high level player's offense thanks to lack of guard cancel on the scrub's part. Infinites are just icing on the cake (which is why high level players always say that the infinites are only icing on the cake. The cake itself consists of Geese's and Zero's other abilities). Very very seldom, if every, will a high level player ever lose to a scrub because of an infinite in SvC. It's Geese's and Zero's ability to rush down past the all-mighty guard cancel that really matters, and scrubs can't guard cancel well, so...
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Fri 29 Aug 10:10] |
| RugalBernstein 4460th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:14:
quote:
It actually didn't have anything to do with what company or game you defended so much as that "I think you just lost too much with Chun-Li" comment.
That was intentionally to be an ass. It reminds me a lot of SNK fans who whined about C v S because the "SNK charas were changed so much". Besides, that was addressed to him, not you, and I don't see the "fanboy" comics as being any different, albeit much more ironic and humorous.
quote:
Heaven forbid that someone might actually have a valid complaint about the game. Instead, you just brush it off and blame it on that person's playing skills when you never saw that person actually play.
In case you didn't notice, I address many "valid complaints" as well. I had originally typed a considerably longer reply to Vmanofmana about infinates, how they aren't intended to be in the game and if they HAD been found they would have been cut, much like roll-canceling in C v S 2, and if somebody needs to resort to them to win it shows what a poor sportsman they are anyway, but I was pretty ticked off at the time and went with the "jerk" approach.
quote:
Not that I'm a high level player...
Then why should any of the other stuff in this paragraph matter for you at all?
Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Fri 29 Aug 10:15] |
| DarkZero
238th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:15
quote:
lol at the avatar topic, it was just sooo random.
If by "random", you mean "completely fucking retarded", then we're agreed!
And does anyone else just hate infinites because they waste a character slot? Any obviously overpowered character is immediately banned from tournament play and shunned in arcade or online play. Once the game has been analyzed to death and it has been discovered that picking this or that character is, indeed, CHEATING, under the basic "having an unfair advantage" definition of the word, those characters are effectively removed from the game because no one will play them, no will want to play against them, and no one will allow them in tournaments.
If Geese and Zero really are overpowered to the point where they have an unfair advantage, that will mean that there are six unplayable characters in SvC: Geese, Zero, Mr. Karate, Shin Gouki, Athena, and Red Arremer. That's just a huge waste of time and potential. It gives me the same feeling that I get when I read quotes in game developer interviews like, "We intended since the beginning to make Trish a playable character, but Capcom said we had to get the game out NOW." Or those FAQs where somebody dug into a game with a GameShark and found tons of cool things that were disabled in its final version. With another week or two of development time, Zero and Geese could've been balanced, especially if they hadn't insisted on keeping EIGHT of the game's playable characters secret during the beta test, which apparently caught most of the bugs for the characters that it actually tested.
It's just a waste of potential. A waste that was caused by laziness.
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| OYashiroForever 456th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re Re Re Re etc. etc. Competitive vs. For Fun" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:17
quote Also, Orochiyashiro, I actually agree with your original post more than this excerpt... his argument is fundamentally flawed at its base; in essence, he says "whatever goes, goes, when it comes to "high level play"; this is probably to justify it when some poor player comes in and is willing to give a game a try and some asshole comes along and double perfects him for "shits and giggles", or more likely to boost his abysmal ego. The only logical reason he could be against an "easy to do infinate" is because it "levels the playing field" and would actually give somebody of average or above average ability a chance of beating somebody who obsesses over the game (thus damaging their delicate ego and causing them to call people "scrubs")
Actually, if you read the remainder of that article and a couple of the follow-up ones he's written, you'll see that he actually places some degree of value in playing for fun, particularly outside of the tournament environment (it promotes bringing new members in to the fold and gives you an opportunity to test counters and strategies that you wouldn't use in tournament play because they're not 100% safe).
What Sirlin's referring to here is the fact that many people who play "for fun" set up arbitrary rules that prevent them from learning a game properly (no throwing, no V-ism, no infinites, etc.). When you set up these kind of arbitrary rules (for example, I seem to recall you mentioning that you refuse to play ratio games in CvS2), you limit the amount you can learn about a game. In the case of SvC's infinites, he would most likely recommend learning them and playing against people who can perform them well so that you can learn how to effectively bait and counter the infinite set-ups. That's how people have learned to beat/avoid a lot of the craziness in MvC2: you play against it enough and you figure out counter-strategies.
Oh... and a "scrub" is normally the person who whines about losing to stuff that's "cheap, unfair, cheesy, unbalanced", etc. Top players, for the most part, are gracious losers and recognize that "if it's in the game, it's in the game".
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| RugalBernstein 4460th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:19
quote:
If Geese and Zero really are overpowered to the point where they have an unfair advantage, that will mean that there are six unplayable characters in SvC: Geese, Zero, Mr. Karate, Shin Gouki, Athena, and Red Arremer. That's just a huge waste of time and potential. It gives me the same feeling that I get when I read quotes in game developer interviews like, "We intended since the beginning to make Trish a playable character, but Capcom said we had to get the game out NOW." Or those FAQs where somebody dug into a game with a GameShark and found tons of cool things that were disabled in its final version. With another week or two of development time, Zero and Geese could've been balanced, especially if they hadn't insisted on keeping EIGHT of the game's playable characters secret during the beta test, which apparently caught most of the bugs for the characters that it actually tested.
I agree, they should have had the "CPU" characters selectable in the testing. It probably would have averted a lot of this. By nature, though, I don't think "Serious" Mr. Karate, Shin Gouki, Athena or Red Arremer should necessarily be tested, though, considering they're bosses; I know people like the idea of a "fair boss", but that just isn't something we'll likely see in a fighting game. I've been thinking about it, too, and Geese might have had the same infinate in KOF '96 (I remember he has one) but I'll need to check that later.
Best site EVER: Link Here
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| DarkZero
239th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(8):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:51
quote:
People still like to ignore the fact Geese and Zero are hidden, anyway. I'd bet all of the hidden characters are at least moderately overpowered; I bet Mr. Karate and Shin Gouki can do crazy shit, too, it's just that nobody has decided to flip dip three (or two and eight, it's always one of those combinations..) and whip them out to see what they can do yet.
When fully ONE QUARTER of the characters are "hidden characters" and one of them is a formerly unplayable boss who has been specifically ratcheted down to the power level of an average character (Goenitz), I think people stop regarding hidden characters as a novelty and start regarding them as a serious part of the roster. It's one thing to declare "no hidden characters" in games like Garou, Last Blade, or KOF2k where there are only one or two secret characters, but it's another when 25% of the cast is hidden.
quote:
I agree, they should have had the "CPU" characters selectable in the testing. It probably would have averted a lot of this. By nature, though, I don't think "Serious" Mr. Karate, Shin Gouki, Athena or Red Arremer should necessarily be tested, though, considering they're bosses; I know people like the idea of a "fair boss", but that just isn't something we'll likely see in a fighting game. I've been thinking about it, too, and Geese might have had the same infinate in KOF '96 (I remember he has one) but I'll need to check that later.
All I meant was that it was bad enough that there were four unplayable characters instead of the usual one (Rugal, Goenitz, Krizalid) or two (Grant/Kain, Musashi/Kagami, O. Zero/Igniz) without adding two more. I think that it's just a waste of time to create four unplayable characters, especially when you're taking time away from balancing the other characters and thus detracting from the multiplayer side of the game. I also don't think that "fair bosses" are ridiculous, provided that you mean a boss that's playable and balanced (I couldn't tell if we were on the same page or not). Most people that have mentioned Athena have said that Orochi Iori is actually a tougher boss than she is, and Orochi Iori is a playable character that apparently isn't as overpowered in the hands of a human being as Geese or Zero. Kain also would've been quite balanced in Mark of the Wolves if someone had spent a little more time on the neutered version of him that they let you play as. The only reason that he's not a balanced character that's acceptable for versus play is that no one checked him for infinites.
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| RugalBernstein 4464th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(9):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 11:05:
quote:
I also don't think that "fair bosses" are ridiculous, provided that you mean a boss that's playable and balanced (I couldn't tell if we were on the same page or not).
I agree, if the boss is intented to be fair and usable and is usable without messing with dip switches (Real Bout Special Krauser, etc..). I just don't care for it when people bitch about a boss who is SUPPOSED to be overpowered and unusable.
quote:
Most people that have mentioned Athena have said that Orochi Iori is actually a tougher boss than she is, and Orochi Iori is a playable character that apparently isn't as overpowered in the hands of a human being as Geese or Zero.
Yeah, I said that myself. Just because the computer isn't so hot with Athena doesn't mean she can't be unbelievably good in the hands of a human, though. As soon as the home cart comes out, and then I'll be more than happy to check.
quote:
Kain also would've been quite balanced in Mark of the Wolves if someone had spent a little more time on the neutered version of him that they let you play as. The only reason that he's not a balanced character that's acceptable for versus play is that no one checked him for infinites.
Well, again, I don't see why people can't just ban Geese and Zero for "tournament play". Isn't the first time it's been done and certainly won't be the last. I realize this last comment is just my opinion, too, but if Kain and Grant were intended to be 100% balanced, they would have been selectable from the start and wouldn't require codes (I still use them anyway, though... :D) Nice to have a couple of constructive talks in a row and not have anybody ranting "it sucks!!".
Edit: Also, Orochiyashiro, you brought up a good point about discovering "counters"... this game has only been accessible for a short time now, it's entirely possible somebody will find counters for Zero (I'm willing to bet the Geese infinate will be more difficult to deal with...)
Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Fri 29 Aug 11:15] |
| EddyT
185th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 12:31:
I think SNK/Playmore tried to give everyone a nice surprise by putting in so many secret characters, with us just discovering them within the week SvC was out. But it sorta backfired, like some people were saying, since some of the hidden guys have infinites.
Personally, I wish there weren't any infinites in SvC either, but unfortunately they're there and there's nothing anyone can do about it. There's always going to be some guy in the arcade who's gonna play you and kick you off using those infinites. Then, you're left with the choice of either waiting until he's done to play the game or try your hardest to figure out what characters and tactics would counter or prevent his infinites and/or overpowered, yet super-safe attacks. By then, you'll find out if you really love the game or not. Sometimes those types of guys can ruin it for others... but it's an unfortunate part of the arcade/online scene. Yeah, we'll get it at home eventually, but that's going to be a while.
I'm a big fan of CvS2, especially on XBox Live, but I've noticed a lot of people who play in major tournaments in the US have started to shy away from playing it on Live. One reason they have is because of lag, which is very understandable. Other people say that it's because there's no RCing and the changes in some grooves are the other reasons.
I kind of wish that Capcom or SNK-Playmore would just have revisions of their arcade fighters, that would fix major problems like infinites, roll-canceling, major collision problems, etc. I'm sure it would hurt their home console software sales a bit if they decide to tweak the same game at home, but not arcade. People will disregard the home games by saying it's not the real thing, and that it develops bad habits for people who want to play tournaments. They'll end up playing in the arcades only.
I'm far removed from being a tournament player, so I definitely play the games for fun. :) But at the same time, I'd love to play more people online... and I'd like the game to be as fair as possible.
[this message was edited by EddyT on Fri 29 Aug 12:40] |
| emeraldazn
152th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Fri 29 Aug 16:36:
quote:
For instance, I'm wondering if it's possible to link a normal hit to a super... because I can only link normals with special moves for now.
Of course :) you can also cancel special moves, and finish it off with a super. Heres one of my favorites for Kim (he can cancel his upfwd+b now woohoo):
jump D, C, qcb+p, qcb+p, qcb+D, qcb+p, upfwd+b, qcbf+k (or EXCEED)
here..try these combos for chun li, basically all you need. she has one of the fastest jabs..i was able to get dwn b x6. just time it right cuz she still has her lighting kick.
dwn bx2~3, dwnfwd+b, dwn up+B, dp+D, jumpC+C or qcf x2 +P if in corner
dwn B x2~3, dwn fwd+B, qcfx2+K, jump C C (or qcfx2 +P or EXCEED if in corner)
C, dp+D, C or qcfx2+p
If you need help on canceling the dwnfwd+b into qcfx2+k, you can use this shortcut. after the 2 down b, rotate your joystick as if u are going to do a qcf motion, but hit the b button so u pull out a dwnfwd+b. then do one more qcf motion and u should execute the dm.
Her down D is very useful against jumping opponents. Her grab is awesome..dash in and grab. :) Also want to note, after you do her qcfx2+K and jump C C in the corner, the opponent tends to face the opposite direction once he lands, so what i would do is trying to continue a combo, or..use the grab move and do another dm combo.
if she has any worthy MAX combos (and this is what i wanted as i have said on my previous posts, not some Geese infinite) then great!..but these combos are definately all you really need.
[this message was edited by emeraldazn on Fri 29 Aug 16:44] |
| TiamatRoar 460th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(6):Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Fri 29 Aug 19:12
quote:
Not to restart any flaming, but why is everyone jumping on Tiamat for his avatar comment? I thought it was "ha ha funny but true" but also "ha ha true in a non-serious way" Get my drift? Generalizations are almost always wrong but I kinda agree with Tiamat's statement. History has proven it to be true and it's sensible. There are always exceptions to the rule and I don't think Tiamat was attacking anyone or being negative. He was just saying some fans are fanatical (or hardcore).
Honestly? I made that avatar comment partially because I wanted to see what replies it would get. However, only partially, since I DO believe it, too. I didn't just pull it out of my ass. It comes from experience of many years of internet message board surfing, to the point where my mind now screams "Approach with caution!" whenever I see certain names or avatars. And they don't just have to be SNK avatars. Though generally, any 'main character' av or name has leaned towards it in my experience. ...with the apparent exception of Iori, for reasons which I have no clue why, which is odd, since I've seen some VERY passionate Iori fans, for lack of a less offensive term. Passionate Iori fans that don't have Iori names or avs for some reason (maybe I just didn't run into some yet).
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
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| EddyT
187th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Fri 29 Aug 19:14:
quote:
For instance, I'm wondering if it's possible to link a normal hit to a super... because I can only link normals with special moves for now.
Of course :) you can also cancel special moves, and finish it off with a super. Heres one of my favorites for Kim (he can cancel his upfwd+b now woohoo):
jump D, C, qcb+p, qcb+p, qcb+D, qcb+p, upfwd+b, qcbf+k (or EXCEED)
here..try these combos for chun li, basically all you need. she has one of the fastest jabs..i was able to get dwn b x6. just time it right cuz she still has her lighting kick.
dwn bx2~3, dwnfwd+b, dwn up+B, dp+D, jumpC+C or qcf x2 +P if in corner
dwn B x2~3, dwn fwd+B, qcfx2+K, jump C C (or qcfx2 +P or EXCEED if in corner)
C, dp+D, C or qcfx2+p
If you need help on canceling the dwnfwd+b into qcfx2+k, you can use this shortcut. after the 2 down b, rotate your joystick as if u are going to do a qcf motion, but hit the b button so u pull out a dwnfwd+b. then do one more qcf motion and u should execute the dm.
Her down D is very useful against jumping opponents. Her grab is awesome..dash in and grab. :) Also want to note, after you do her qcfx2+K and jump C C in the corner, the opponent tends to face the opposite direction once he lands, so what i would do is trying to continue a combo, or..use the grab move and do another dm combo.
if she has any worthy MAX combos (and this is what i wanted as i have said on my previous posts, not some Geese infinite) then great!..but these combos are definately all you really need.
I'll try the Chun Li combos next time I'm over at the arcade... thanks for the advice. :)
Reason why I was asking, is because when I was playing as Shiki, I had a hard time linking her super with some of her normals. For instance, crouching and hitting strong punch into super didn't work, but crouching strong punch into uppercut attack worked okay. It looked like a perfect link, but didn't work out that way. I guess I'll keep trying later. I'm not looking online for combos or anything, so everything is trial-and-error for me right now.
[this message was edited by EddyT on Fri 29 Aug 19:15] |
| emeraldazn
152th Post
Regular Customer
| "Shiki" , posted Fri 29 Aug 20:41
Shiki is a different story :)
j D, C, f+A, qcb+k (Command throw will connect in any combo)
j D, C, f+B Bx3, dash Dp+C or air Dp+C
j D, C, f+A Ax3 (Cancel 4th hit of A combo), Exceed super
Here are some combos that require MAX mode
j D, C, f+A Ax3, qcf+A, qcb,hcf+C super (or EXCEED)
j D, C, f+A Ax3, qcf+A, qcf+B, air Dp+C or air qcf+D (Better use in the corner IMO for the last hit)
Her best tactic is to get her command throw connected against your opponent. Once your opponents controls are reversed you have a good chance of landing another combo or continue with your offensive. Shiki's Dp+C is her best anti-air alongside with c D. dwn b and C upclose are great to start up Shiki's combos but be careful since anything blocked can be guard dash canceled.
I repeat, abuse the command throw :)
Oh and I just noticed something interesting from Shiki, and this might work the same way with other characters that have a command throw. I was doing close C, f+A, qcb+B (command throw) and one of my opponents guard dash canceled my f+A but got caught with Shiki's qcb+B command throw. I think that command throws will counter GCFS (iori's, chun li's, etc).
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| OYashiroForever 458th Post
Gold Customer
| "Too many damn "Re:"s" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22:03
quote:
I kind of wish that Capcom or SNK-Playmore would just have revisions of their arcade fighters, that would fix major problems like infinites, roll-canceling, major collision problems, etc. I'm sure it would hurt their home console software sales a bit if they decide to tweak the same game at home, but not arcade. People will disregard the home games by saying it's not the real thing, and that it develops bad habits for people who want to play tournaments. They'll end up playing in the arcades only.
Capcom's released multiple versions of the same game before (SF2:WW, Zero 3 -> Zero 3 Upper, 3S, I think SSF2:Tourney Edition didn't have Magic SPD). In the case of Zero 3 Upper, the game was totally ignored by the Japanese because a lot of the bugs (crouch-cancels, V-ism was raped, etc.) were fixed. If people have already invested a significant amount of time in to learning the ins and outs of a game (including the quirks like RCing, crouch-cancelling, etc.), they'll usually react strongly to fixes/revisions.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| RugalBernstein 4469th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Too many damn" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22:18:
quote:
I was talking about in Japan, not the U.S. They had just taken the CPS boards out of some cabs and put Naomi boards in. Obviously it's difficult to confuse the two, but I hadn't gotten the impression many people cared one way or the other. Not to insult the "better gamers", either, but I think it's pretty silly to get offended when a company would fix a game's problems.. Bottom line, if a company is willing to go back and take something out of the game, it was probably never intended to be there; if people aren't willing or capable of dealing with that, it just shows they really aren't willing to adapt to the situation. I realize my views don't necessarily square with yours, but I don't think being able to abuse bugs in the game makes you a good player; if anything, I find it to be quite the opposite. In my opinion, I think a truly good player should be able to play and win without having to whip out bugs and flaws in the game, but I don't expect others to adhere to my views. ^_^
Edit: Of course, one expects to encounter this kind of thing in the arcade from time to time, and all one can do is give it your all and possibly learn from it. Truthfully, though, the "fighting game fanatic" is a fire gone out of this world; I haven't fought anybody who I would consider "amazingly good" for a long time outside of Japan.
Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Fri 29 Aug 22:32] |
| TiamatRoar 461th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(4):Too many damn" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22:31
Since Upper was only released in Japan and not many arcade operators import Japan-only arcade cabinets to my knowledge, I think OYash is talking about Japan, too. Only place I heard of importing SFA3 Upper was... CFTF, I think. Been a while since I heard about that game. ...been a while since I heard about that game because no one seems to like it or play it. OYash's report matches everything I've heard about it, though (IE, the Japanese swearing off the game like it was the plague. Though I think a big reason for that might be because they made Shin Akuma and Final Bison playable). I imagine Shin Akuma and Final Bison would be banned from tournaments, except the Japanese apparently hated the game so much anyways that there were never any tournaments for it in the first place.
I haven't been to Japan to check it out, myself, though. Well, it definately isn't popular in the US, at least, which is why people still discuss V-Ism combos that only work in non-upper heavily, but that's to be expected, since the game never was released in the US (besides the console-only dreamcast SFA3 that Upper is generally a port of, to my knowledge).
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
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| VManOfMana
205th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(8):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22:36:
quote:
While SNK vs. Capcom obviously has some balance issues, I think this dispute comes down to one major factor: " Capcom vs. SNK 2 revenge". We're seeing a repeat of all the SNK freaks bitching about Capcom vs. SNK 2's supposedly "raped" SNK charas. In this case, Capcom freaks are latching on to whatever bad thing that comes up in the game and are going to hammer it until the cows come home. It's the circle of life!
I guess this is also related to the previous comment about what you told me for being just an ass (which by the way, you were, only that I am immune to company-specific taunts because of a little detail).
Little detail which you forgot to consider: I am Mexican. I grew up in Mexico. I grew up in SNK territory. I played SNK games for years, despite Chun Li being always my #1 character since SF2. In other words, I have played both companies' games a good deal like to be biased towards one's company (I play SvC more than MvC2 and as much as CvS2 lately). And if you can read my previous posts again, you can find out that I haven't said a single word about Chun Li (or any Capcom charater) being shafted. I complained about gameplay elements: hit detection, universal moves with way too high benefit/cost ratio, easy infinites, unbalanced characters (no matter who they are and what side they are on) and boring games due to turtling product of the previous problems.
But if you really want me to complain, here it goes: when they hit, HouyokuvSen and Kikoshou sound like a typewriter and popcorn, respectively. Now the question is, do I think this is important enough like to care and actually whine? (Hint: starts with "n" and ends with "o").
(Yeah: I know this looks OT now, but its impressive how a thread can change in an afternoon - just wanted to speak out).
Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Fri 29 Aug 22:47] |
| DKW
240th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Little mini-review thing" , posted Sat 30 Aug 00:58
Graphics: I'm sorry, all you SNK super-diehards, but until there's some kind of hardware upgrade, this issue is not going away. I'm baffled as to why you're so hellbent on discrediting "eye candy" and "style over substance" or whatever. Ever since the days of monochrome paddle games, video game technology has been constantly marching forward. Simply put, the new supplants the old. Why you people constantly rationalize whatever-SNK-is-called-now not adapting and changing like every other video game company is beyond me.
Anyway, the animation's pretty nice, and some of the effects, like Dan's "power up spark" are pretty cool. But the graphics are very noticably grainy, and the color palette isn't too hot either. This may not be a problem for a 16-bit system, but this game is expected to compete with other arcade fighting games, and this is not a good sign.
Characters: I agree with everyone who says that there are just too many Ryus and Ryu-oids in there. (Also, the SF2 gang is getting seriously overrepresented in these crossovers...for crying out loud, give Third Strike and Alpha folks a shot!) Still, this was probably unavoidable, given the limitations of the hardware and the need for characters that, well, fighting gamers would actually pick. (For all the grumbling about how "boring" Ryu is, has that stopped even ONE player from taking him?) Formerly-SNK did the best with what they had...I can live with that.
Gameplay: Slow? For whom, Sonic the Hedgehog? The pace sure looks pretty brisk to me, and more than a few rookies have had trouble just keeping up. Balance seems to be all right (nobody's actually mastered the infinites yet); there are favorites, of course, but I haven't seen any one character dominate. I don't mind the lack of tons of modes and styles at all; there's nothing wrong with KISS.
The dialogue: Why don't these people ever remember a single thing that happened in the past? Particularly all the previous times they've fought? Y'know? This is really starting to creep me out. Interesting diversion otherwise.
Overall, there's nothing groundshaking about this game, but it's a fun diversion and a refreshing change from all the KOF and Guilty Gear challengemanias. It's not really all that popular at my arcade right now, though, and I don't think it'll ever be. It looks like niche game is the best CvS can hope for.
Will find out more after Saturday.
homepage - http://home.hawaii.rr.com/dkwff
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| VManOfMana
207th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Sat 30 Aug 01:00:
quote:
I guess this is also related to the previous comment about what you told me for being just an ass (which by the way, you were, only that I am immune to company-specific taunts because of a little detail).
I believe both of the things I said, actually; and if you were actually "immune", you wouldn't have bothered to either reply to the original comment defending your abilities with Chunners OR the other comment. There, NOW I'm done.
By immunity I meant that the taunt does not apply to me, not that it ticks me off, because I got to say that being called a fanboy in a SNK/Capcom war is something that REALLY ticks me off.
Just to clarify things.
And you still fail to address the main points of my posts: why the game is a bad one. I was trying to put arguments in an objective matter, but then this went thru the "Capcom fanboys whine about SNK games" route.
So trying to go back to a gaming-oriented route:
The reason why banning Geese and Zero is not a viable one is because of the fact that they are not non-selectable-without-code final bosses. Banning Shin Gouki, Shin Mr. Karate and Athena (if they are selectable with a code) would be a reasonable thing, same thing with Shin Gouki and Shin Akuma in CvS2 (which in a way they are "banned" because they are not arcade-selectable). Under this reasoning, banning Gouki and not Vega (psycho) from Super Turbo also sounds reasonable (Gouki is a secret boss while Vega is selectable without code). Banning Geese and Zero would be like asking Geese and Vega (psycho) to be banned because they are mid-bosses in CvS2.
Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Sat 30 Aug 01:08] |
| Time Mage 1603th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
|  "Rugal and VMan. Please. Behave."
, posted Sat 30 Aug 09:10
Rugal, VMan, I think you are both very reasonable people, so... Why are you arguing like kids?
I'm specially surprised about you, Rugal. You are not a fanboy by any means, and never acted like one until this thread. If you are bothered about people complaining about the game, it's OK, but I was very surprised about the fanboy call you did to VMan. It was unexpected and unnapropiate, specially when he did not said a single thing about ChunLi nor Capcom being raped nor anything like that. His complains may be fair or not, but he did't look insulting or flaming.
I don't want to sound like a father, teacher, moderator or whatever figure has the authority to reprehend, but, seriously, this is NOT what I expected.
Also, VMan, Roll Cancelling, Kara-whatever and things like that ARE bugs, even if they are difficult to do ones. So, in my opinion, they should dissapear, and that's what happened in the EO versions, so it looks like Capcom thinks they're bugs, too.
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| DarkZero
240th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Sat 30 Aug 10:07
quote:
Speaking of forums...
In a forum dedicaced to Zero, they were saying that people that think Zero is broken didn't actually played him and don't know how hard it is to use elves properly. I don't have any opinion about it, since I didn't played the game myself, but it only made me more eager to play the game.
Difficulty is pretty much irrelevant in the discussion of infinites. Among mid-level players (most of us, probably), infinites are no different than priority, i.e. they depend on the statement "all else being equal". Assuming equal skill level, equal knowledge of one another's strategies, equal proficiency with the game's systems, etc., the mid-level player using Zero or Geese has an unfair advantage over another mid-level player using a different character. Even if they can only pull off the infinite for a little while, say 30% or 50% of the opponent's total health, they still have an advantage that the other player, who is forced to use just standard combos and supers, does not. In high level play, difficulty still doesn't matter, because if you're good enough to be considered "high level", then you can certainly pull off a simple infinite like Geese's or Zero's.
The same logic applies to the mine trap. It can do substantial, unique damage, and only one character can do it. That, too, is an unfair advantage.
I think the real problem, though, is that people regard infinites as if we should just stop playing the game because there are infinites. In practice, infinites are hard to pull off and can usually only be sustained for a short period of time. In my opinion, infinites aren't much different than priority or slightly over-powered supers: they're just one more small thing that makes a character stronger. It doesn't make a character a god, it just makes them a bit stronger.
Geese sounds like a real monster, though. He can auto-counter (I know there's a bit of lingo for this, but I just can't remember it) melee supers like the Buster Wolf, he has an infinite, he has the Raging Storm, and, according to several different people in the strategy area of SRK.com, he actually has a combo that contains the Deadly Rave, the Raging Storm, and a bunch of different normal and special moves inbetween. Why an infinite is considered worse than a combo like that is beyond me, because it sounds really easy except for the Raging Storm.
|
| Grave 629th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "why yes, curry rice for lunch would be great" , posted Sat 30 Aug 10:31
quote:
Also, VMan, Roll Cancelling, Kara-whatever and things like that ARE bugs, even if they are difficult to do ones. So, in my opinion, they should dissapear, and that's what happened in the EO versions, so it looks like Capcom thinks they're bugs, too.
Right on. I just grabbed my own copy of CvS2EO for Xbox yesterday, because I'm leaving for college in a few hours, and I won't be able to play my friend's copy anymore, heh heh.
The problem with the RC thing is that people started basing their game around it, and the same people playing it declare that it's so broken because of how powerful it is, but when RCs are taken out, they have no interest in the game anymore. I don't really get it... Maybe if people's strategies didn't hinge on Roll Cancels they could try to enjoy the game. If a glitch is essential for "high-level play" and when it's removed people don't want to play the game... I think the players, not the game, are to blame.
quote:
according to several different people in the strategy area of SRK.com, he actually has a combo that contains the Deadly Rave, the Raging Storm, and a bunch of different normal and special moves inbetween.
Scary!
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| OYashiroForever 461th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(1):Rugal and VMan. Please. Behave." , posted Sat 30 Aug 10:42
quote:
Rugal, VMan, I think you are both very reasonable people, so... Why are you arguing like kids?
Personally, I thought they were being fairly reasonable. Rugal, from my personal experience, always goes out of his way to avoid conflict/flaming. While this whole thread could've degenerated in to flaming, I think it's stayed fairly on-topic and has been, for the most part, civil. No need to break up fights where there aren't any.
quote:
Also, VMan, Roll Cancelling, Kara-whatever and things like that ARE bugs, even if they are difficult to do ones. So, in my opinion, they should dissapear, and that's what happened in the EO versions, so it looks like Capcom thinks they're bugs, too.
They are bugs. However, when you fix a game a year (sometimes even 2 or 3) after its release, people who've invested a significant amount of time in to learning how to win at the ORIGINAL game tend to ignore the "upgrade". Should they? Tough to say. In the case of CvS2, Capcom didn't upgrade the arcade version so tournament players never really had to deal with the EO differences. In the case of Zero 3 Upper and GGXX#, those games were even more bug-riddled than the original games.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| emeraldazn
156th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Sat 30 Aug 10:57:
quote:
Geese sounds like a real monster, though. He can auto-counter (I know there's a bit of lingo for this, but I just can't remember it) melee supers like the Buster Wolf, he has an infinite, he has the Raging Storm, and, according to several different people in the strategy area of SRK.com, he actually has a combo that contains the Deadly Rave, the Raging Storm, and a bunch of different normal and special moves inbetween. Why an infinite is considered worse than a combo like that is beyond me, because it sounds really easy except for the Raging Storm.
For auto counters you just throw them. Raging Storm is something to be careful of tho, its a 100% pure anti air killer. Chun li can link special moves together as well.. dwn up x b and DP+D. so funny how everyone is saying Geese and Zero are top-tier just cuz of their infinite. and the last thing u are talking about is called a max combo, just to let u know.
[this message was edited by emeraldazn on Sat 30 Aug 10:59] |
| OYashiroForever 462th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(4):Too many damn" , posted Sat 30 Aug 11:01
quote:
I was talking about in Japan, not the U.S.
So was I. The Golfland franchise in CA/AZ tend to get a lot of imports, though, so I was just using them as a personal example. When I went to Cali a couple of years back, I went to Sunnyvale GL on a Sat. night and played some great players. While I was there, I noticed the Z3U machine was empty the entire time while the Alpha 3 machine had pretty consistent comp. However, for the most part, I was referring to Japan... every person I've talked to has pretty much synched up with that: Upper gets no play while Z3 still has a significant scene (a lot of places still even hold tourneys for it).
quote:
Not to insult the "better gamers", either, but I think it's pretty silly to get offended when a company would fix a game's problems.. Bottom line, if a company is willing to go back and take something out of the game, it was probably never intended to be there; if people aren't willing or capable of dealing with that, it just shows they really aren't willing to adapt to the situation. I realize my views don't necessarily square with yours, but I don't think being able to abuse bugs in the game makes you a good player; if anything, I find it to be quite the opposite. In my opinion, I think a truly good player should be able to play and win without having to whip out bugs and flaws in the game, but I don't expect others to adhere to my views. ^_^
And, of course, no one should chastise you for your views either since they're not unreasonable. However, I do respectfully disagree because I think a truly good player learns EVERYTHING about a game and then uses whatever is necessary to win. A "truly" good player can win without using bugs/infinites/etc., but he/she will be even better if they know the bugs/infinites, know how to bait people in to falling in to them, and know how to avoid them. Refusing to learn things simply because they originally weren't intended to be in the game (like 2-in-1s in SF2:WW or Cable's AHVBx3) puts you at a disadvantage if you're playing the game to win.
Obviously, when you're playing with your friends or trying to initiate a new member in to the fold, you don't pull out all the stops and play for blood, but that doesn't mean there isn't a time and place for that style of ruthless play (read: when money's on the line).
quote Of course, one expects to encounter this kind of thing in the arcade from time to time, and all one can do is give it your all and possibly learn from it. Truthfully, though, the "fighting game fanatic" is a fire gone out of this world; I haven't fought anybody who I would consider "amazingly good" for a long time outside of Japan.
Japan still has a THRIVING competitive scene and in the US, while the arcade scene is on its last leg, there are significantly more people out there playing the high-level game now than there were 2 years ago. Hell, over 600 people attended Evolution 2k3 three weeks ago, including a few dozen international players. If you're interested in playing people who are genuinely good, I can give you arcades and people's home addresses. ^_^
BTW... I can't speak for anyone here but myself, but you know full well (or at least I assume you do) that I don't have it out for you, Rugal. Sure, we drag out this conversation once every couple of months (particularly since so many new games have come out of late), but I'm not pissed off or bitter. I'm not even trying to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong. Just trying to engage in friendly debate.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| OYashiroForever 463th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(6):Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Sat 30 Aug 11:13
quote:
For auto counters you just throw them. Raging Storm is something to be careful of tho, its a 100% pure anti air killer. Chun li can link special moves together as well.. dwn up x b and DP+D. so funny how everyone is saying Geese and Zero are top-tier just cuz of their infinite. and the last thing u are talking about is called a max combo, just to let u know.
Geese and Zero would be powerful even without easy-to-perform, mid-screen infinites. As already mentioned, Geese does good damage and has powerful MAX combos and Zero can completely control the ground with his mine trap (you can't even Guard Step cancel out of it), making his infinite very easy to setup. Certainly, you could argue for other characters being top-tier (O. Iori and Violent Ken are both ridiculously fast/powerful, Demitri can fireball/dp trap like there's no tomorrow, and Goenitz, while toned down, can still be an incredible nuisance with well-placed tornados and command throws. For the non-hidden characters, Iori, Chun, and Terry have all proven to be fast and powerful. However, at this stage of the game (which could, of course, change if new things are discovered), Geese and Zero have obvious advantages that other characters simply can't compete with.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| DarkZero
241th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(6):Re(10):Re(10):Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Sat 30 Aug 11:36
quote:
For auto counters you just throw them. Raging Storm is something to be careful of tho, its a 100% pure anti air killer. Chun li can link special moves together as well.. dwn up x b and DP+D. so funny how everyone is saying Geese and Zero are top-tier just cuz of their infinite. and the last thing u are talking about is called a max combo, just to let u know.
Damn, that's right... Deadly Rave is an Exceed, not a super, so you can only use Deadly Rave and Raging Storm in the same combo while in MAX Mode. For some reason I thought Deadly Rave was a super and not an exceed.
And yes, the auto counter is nothing more than a throw, but inflicting damage with an auto counter is certainly preferable to taking block damage. Just one more of those little things in Geese's favor that I was talking about.
Also, I actually have a question (something sort of new for this thread!). For those that have used Zero, if anyone: Can you perform combos on a Mettool opponent? In the Zero vs. Earthquake vid, Zero turned Earthquake into a Mettool and then attacked him, but it seemed like sort of a waste since Earthquake popped back into existence already blocking and Zero wasn't able to get a combo off. Is the Mettool transformation elf only useful for singular attacks like Zero's slide super or cyber elf exceed, or did the guy in the Zero video just screw up his combo?
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| VManOfMana
208th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(1):Rugal and VMan. Please. Behave." , posted Sat 30 Aug 15:57:
quote:
Also, VMan, Roll Cancelling, Kara-whatever and things like that ARE bugs, even if they are difficult to do ones. So, in my opinion, they should dissapear, and that's what happened in the EO versions, so it looks like Capcom thinks they're bugs, too.
In their essence, roll cancelling, guard cancelling, kara cancelling and the other-kind-of-cancelling-whose other-Japanese-name-I-don't remember are not bugs, but a necessary thing which was later exploited and transormed into a "necessary evil".
The essence of all these cancelling techniques is to use the game's threshold for detecting moves into one's advantage, since we humans cannot be 100% perfect when making a motion. This threshold is about two or three frames long, but with enough practice they can be used with other puproses.
Kara cancelling is cancelling a normal move into a command move withing the error frame. The most obvious example of this is when you play SF2, you can sometimes hear the sound of a fierce punch while doing a Hadoken. I recently was in Chihuahua (Mexico) where they have CE and about 1 out of 3 Hadokens had this effect.
The other cancelling whose name I don't remember is the ability to cancel a normal move into another one. Think of it like chaining, only that in most "old school" games these chains are no longer than two or three hits. Typical examples are jabs cancelling each other, Ken's strong > fierce in Third Strike, Ryu and Ken's short > roundhouse in SF2, etc. So, the unnamed cancelling is just a way to make combos happen, so how is it relevant to this? Well, it can be a powerful weapon combined with kara cancel, which can translate into creating new combos. Normally in SF2, jabs don't combo into hadokens, but if you unnamed cancel the jab with roundhouse, and kara cancel the roundhouse with the hadoken, you can combo them.
Crouch cancelling is just applying "trip-guard" in an offensive way. In SF2, you had no way to block a sweep as you land on a jump, so to help things out, it was later implemented that you could cancel your landing recovery given that you are not in an attacking position. Crouch cancelling is just doing trip-guard so that you cancel your landing recovery so your next attack can go out faster. I would blame crouch cancel infinites to A3's juggle system, not crouch cancelling itself.
Going back to kara-cancellig...
Kara cancelling is often used to increase the range of a move. Third Strike's kara throws is the most known example. Kara throws is just a kara cancel where instead of cancelling into say, a Hadoken or Shoryuken, you cancel into a grab, which is a command move since you need to input two buttons at the same time. Ken can give a lot of extra range to his moves in CvS2 by kara-cancelling his standing roundhouse. The thing is that if you kara cancel a move that makes your character go forward you will get extra range. It is impossible for the game to predict when a kara cancel was voluntary or not. Of course an algorithm to cancel the effect of moves going forward could be implemented, but who knows if it can be implemented such that any correction can be precise enough and to be done within a frame.
Roll cancelling is just another form of Kara cancel. By itself roll cancelling is not a glitch (you can roll cancel in the XBox version as well); the glitch is the fact that the roll's invincibility is passed to the command move. So what the XBox version fixed is not roll cancelling, is the invincibility issue.
quote:
The problem with the RC thing is that people started basing their game around it, and the same people playing it declare that it's so broken because of how powerful it is, but when RCs are taken out, they have no interest in the game anymore. I don't really get it... Maybe if people's strategies didn't hinge on Roll Cancels they could try to enjoy the game. If a glitch is essential for "high-level play" and when it's removed people don't want to play the game... I think the players, not the game, are to blame.
I think both sides (company and players) are at fault. Ideally, the company should be able to apply "fixes" to major problems before they become so "natural" to the game so that players will whine when it is removed. The XBox version came out about 2 years after CvS2 came out, and A3 Upper came out after the regular A3's mechanics were considered natural to the game. Of course, if you ask me, the ideal solution would be to contract the top players in Japan to do the game testing and let them find as much glitches as possible so that they can be fixed. For a month at least. If this were the case things like AHVB and Geese and Zero in SvC would not be what they are today. I know that BAS was a CvS2 tester (he is on the credits), but who knows how deep the testing was. Anyways, RC was discovered way after a month. So to covers things like these, ideally there should also be a way to add patches to the game (maybe an additional read only unit?)
Note that I am not defending Roll Cancel in CvS2. I myself hate Roll Cancelling and although I have to face it all the time, I have decided to not use it even though I know that will translate into harder work (besides the fact that I don't have the execution). And I got to say that if it were by me I would be playing the XBox version in the arcade, since I am all for playing without the RC invincibility glitch, playing with Blanka/Sagat being toned down damage wise, and have P-Groove beefed up (initially I was going to use it, but parry got a very low benefit/risk ratio and having the slowest building, less powerful lv 3 supers doesn't help either).
Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Sat 30 Aug 16:48] |
| Time Mage 1604th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "RC, Kara, and etc." , posted Sun 31 Aug 05:34
I know perfectly the bases of kara cancelling and roll cancelling, but anyway, thanks for explaining it, other people might not know it.
quote:
Roll cancelling is just another form of Kara cancel. By itself roll cancelling is not a glitch (you can roll cancel in the XBox version as well); the glitch is the fact that the roll's invincibility is passed to the command move. So what the XBox version fixed is not roll cancelling, is the invincibility issue.
When I saif RC and Kara were glitches, I was not being specific. What is a glitch in RC is adding the inv. frames of the roll to the move, and in the EO versions they just removed it and left the cancelling itself. Something like that could be done with the range-extending karas, as you pointed out, leaving the ability to cancel, but negating the additional range. In fact, I think that those windows of "universal cancelling" are a great idea of Capcom, in order to ease the execution of the moves, but they should have given a solution to the secondary effects of that.
I also agree in the fact that bugfixes should be faster, because if not, players tend to exploit and accostume to them. The "bugfixing expansion slot" is a great idea, you should send it to Capcom and SNK! ^_^
I read (I think it was in srk) that BAS didn't reported all his discoveries in the beta testing, just to keep an ace in his sleeve in tournaments. I don't know if this is true, but it shows a possibility that may occur if you leave the beta test to the best players in Japan: They could become even better. Also, beta testing periods should be longer than one week or two, that's for sure.
Oh! One last thing! I supposed you didn't used RC. Usually, the people who come here likes to enjoy a game, not being professionals of that game. I myself have medium-little ability, but in GGXX, I can do Slayer's grab infinite without a problem, although I don't use it. I usually grab twice or thrice (sp?), and then combo. I think it's unfunny to extend it more. Even when the infinite would be the solution to win an uphill match, I don't use it. I suppose that using infinites/exploiting bugs etc. are a matter of each one's personality.
I think the structure of the post isn't the best, but I was writing as things came to my mind, sorry ^_^
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| emeraldazn
156th Post
Regular Customer
| "chun li ownage" , posted Sun 31 Aug 15:20
http://210.224.163.11/bnf_svc_gam2.lzh
Lets not concentrate on Tabasa in this vid, just chun li :) Here you can see her combo i mentioned in my previous post. b,b, dwnfwd b, dwnup+b, dp+D, but she used fb a version instead. The player also made a simple MAX combo, C, f+b, fb a version into dm. Command grab is great as ever. Hope this match helps you play better vman and eddyt
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| VManOfMana
209th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(1):chun li ownage" , posted Sun 31 Aug 19:48
quote:
http://210.224.163.11/bnf_svc_gam2.lzh
Lets not concentrate on Tabasa in this vid, just chun li :) Here you can see her combo i mentioned in my previous post. b,b, dwnfwd b, dwnup+b, dp+D, but she used fb a version instead. The player also made a simple MAX combo, C, f+b, fb a version into dm. Command grab is great as ever. Hope this match helps you play better vman and eddyt
It sure will help. Right now I rely mostly on close C or D > HouyokuSen to punish most whiffs or after a guard cancel. Now I got a way to deal a super's worth damage with greater range and without using supers.
Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
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| Ultima 321th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(2):stuff" , posted Mon 1 Sep 02:05
VManOfMana:
Minor correction: Jabs do combo into Hadouken in SF2. At least the close ones.
Also, your description for Crouch Cancelling isn't quite correct. It has nothing to do with trip guard. SFA3's juggle system states that your opponent cannot air recover (flip) until your character has returned to neutral state. Crouch Cancelling gets around this by cancelling your landing animation into a crouch, then cancelling that into a jump. Thus, you never enter a neutral state, so your opponent can't flip.
Trip guard is just going from your landing recovery straight into a crouch-block. It's not like you couldn't cancel it with other things in the past (DPs in Sf2, anyone?).
I dunno what unnamed cancelling your talking about, but there's also Kabotti cancels in A3 - cancelling air moves directly into CC activation. Same principle as Kara-cancelling.
Roll-Cancelling was in CvS1, but it didn't make moves invincible like CvS2's own do.
re: beta-testing
A beta test of even a month doesn't guarantee you'll find everything that's broken in a game. Crouch-cancel infinites in SFA3 weren't discovered until, what, 15 months after the game had been out?
Also, CvS2 was beta-tested for a month (two if you count the US beta testing), and look how that turned out.
re: banning
Tournament players are reluctant to ban things as a whole because no one wants to be seen as a scrub. "Banning" is associated with "we can't find a way around this, so let's ban it!"", which is typical scrub mentality (e.g. throws in the old days). It's gotten to the point that unless something is so "obviously" broken (e.g. Gambit glitch, reset/freeze glitches), most high level players are reluctant to ban something even if they secretly would like to.
In addition, no matter how bad a character may seem, there's always hope that a counter can be found. Sometimes it works - Cable in MvC2 was considered extremely broken once upon a time (and at the beginner/intermediate level, he still is). BUt people found a way past him eventually. Sometimes it doesn't - people never found a way around Akuma and Ibuki in 2I.
Another problem with banning stuff that's seen as "too good" is that sometimes there's stuff just underneathe that's "almost too good" that now becomes "too good" as a consequence. This is why banning the top tier characters is a lot of games usually doesn't make sense, because then you'll just have a new crop of top tier to deal with. Ban Ibuki and Akuma from 2I, and you'll still have to deal with Sean Y/Y. Ban Storm/Sentinel/Magneto/Cable from MvC2, and you'll have nothing but Ironman infinites all day. So not banning is kinda of a case of "The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know".
What no one has tried to do (probably because no one has any real authority to do so) is to set some kind of statute of limitations. How long can a tactic dominate before it's worthy of being banned? I remember some clown claiming that "we'll find a way around Sagat and Blanka!" up to a year after the game was out, with no real counter in sight (instead they just got better). What rubbish.
For competitive play, I think it's a little early to say Geese and Zero must be banned, but it certainly looks like it's heading in that direction if people want the game to be competitive. On the other hand, this assumes that high level players want the game to be competitive, which isn't something I'm sure of.
--
Ultima - The Right arm of Scrub Voltron
http://uramble.com/index.html - U's Rambling Page
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| ONSLAUGHT 2384th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):its a trap" , posted Mon 1 Sep 22:10:
quote:
Original message (1785 Views )48 sushi_bunny
162th Post
Regular Customer
"Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 02:52
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Hello everybody,
Long time no write here. Well, I moved into a new apartment just minutes away from Capcom, and it seems nice there. Anyways, my brother said at a local Golfland, there's an arcade version of this, and he said it was crap. I dunno. I was gonna try it, but my comic deadline for my story kept nagging in my head. Any comments?
sssushi :O)
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"Why should it goes well?"
(Quote from Captain America from the Data East / Marvel Comics Avengers 80's video game.)
Replies:
Shyeim
122th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(1):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 03
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My Arcade already got rid of this fighter, because most people don't know this game. I saw some KOF and other arcade players playing this, but they gave all bad impression.
I played it few times, but old keepaway gameplay really kills this fighter. It could be done so well if they add some more innovation in gameplay.
Maybe Playmore has not enough talents, unlike SNK.
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[this message was edited by Shyeim on Thu 28 Aug 03:19]
TheBeast1518th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
"Re(2):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 04:32
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It needs time to adjust to the gameplay. I think it is pretty good, just that perhaps players demand much more than this.
There are 3 machines here in my local arcade and there is often a small crowd forming round the machines.
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threesixtee567th Post
New Red Carpet Member
"Re(3):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 07:33
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man, I can't believe some arcades are already getting rid of their machines, while not a single SVC cabinet even exists in washington state.
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for great justice.
Pollyanna
148th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(4):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 08:02
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It seems like a lot of people don't like this game (though nobody likes 2D fighters much around here). Maybe I'm crazy, but when I play it, I'm able to say "I have renewed faith in SNK!". The game is a bit slow if you're used to GuiltyGear or whatever, and it's a bit "old school" I guess, but it's definitely not CRAP. There is some abusable stuff and a few lame parts about it (backgrounds), but..altogether, I think it's a great game.
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Freeter4026th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"No" , posted Thu 28 Aug 08:10
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I have spent $10 on this game already and I'm still hooked.
Crap? I don't think so.
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Grave614th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"Re(1):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 08:38
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This is the third time I'm trying to reply to this thread. If my browser crashes, I give up.
I don't think most people give SvCC a fair chance. A lot of people were trashing the game before it came out, so they obviously weren't interested in trying it and then forming impressions.
I like the game a lot, but I need to play a lot more of it before I know how I really feel about it. But I do know that I like the way the game plays. It's pretty fun.
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sushi bunny
163th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(2):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 09:28
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Well, I guess I will try it out today. Gotta go, deadline is nagging with me..
ssushi :O)
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"Why should it goes well?"
(Quote from Captain America from the Data East / Marvel Comics Avengers 80's video game.)
emeraldazn
143th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(3):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 10:09
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man..i think SVC:C is a worthy title. Gameplay only gets bad when ppl just turtle and once they see the opportunity dash cancel and throw u (thats when it leads to carefully dashing in and throwing as well)..but i like the system they used, how they made sure that canceling and stuff doesnt cost so much in terms of super meter.
The weird hit detection kinda annoys me, and theres not enough OOMPH in some of the moves.
Some of the BGs are amazing, I especially like the nude place one.
New voice additions are a nice touch, as well as the illustrations, really awesome. I think they did this in order to make it a nice console game as well.
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Hungrywolf2282th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(4):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 10:14
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quote:
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man..i think SVC:C is a worthy title. Gameplay only gets bad when ppl just turtle and once they see the opportunity dash cancel and throw u (thats when it leads to carefully dashing in and throwing as well)..but i like the system they used, how they made sure that canceling and stuff doesnt cost so much in terms of super meter.
The weird hit detection kinda annoys me, and theres not enough OOMPH in some of the moves.
Some of the BGs are amazing, I especially like the nude place one.
New voice additions are a nice touch, as well as the illustrations, really awesome. I think they did this in order to make it a nice console game as well.
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Crap, I gotta play this game. Hopefully soon I'll get my chance.
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"You're good baby I'll give you that.....but me? I'm magic!"
-Bullseye Daredevil movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
Iron D2299th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(5):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 13:34
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I'm still looking forward to it. My local arcade is pretty big on 2d games, but since I haven't been there in a while, I don't know if they've gotten yet...
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Iron D-itude fact 1: Iron D finds the race for governor in California to be depressing amusing and funny.
Iron D-itude fact 2: Iron D likes to eat his tomatoes raw.
Bootation278th Post
Copper Customer
"Re(5):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 13
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quote:
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man..i think SVC:C is a worthy title. Gameplay only gets bad when ppl just turtle and once they see the opportunity dash cancel and throw u (thats when it leads to carefully dashing in and throwing as well)..but i like the system they used, how they made sure that canceling and stuff doesnt cost so much in terms of super meter.
The weird hit detection kinda annoys me, and theres not enough OOMPH in some of the moves.
Some of the BGs are amazing, I especially like the nude place one.
New voice additions are a nice touch, as well as the illustrations, really awesome. I think they did this in order to make it a nice console game as well.
Crap, I gotta play this game. Hopefully soon I'll get my chance.
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There is a copy of this game in Washington state. We have it in our local arcade. Its very surprising! Its in the Bellis Fair Mall Tilt, in Bellingham. I like the game although the controls are touchy.....
Peace.
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Essence-Absorbing Stance!
[this message was edited by Bootation on Thu 28 Aug 13:38]
Grave616th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"Re(4):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 13:40
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quote:
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The weird hit detection kinda annoys me, and theres not enough OOMPH in some of the moves.
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I think Garou has spoiled a lot of people in that department. Not many games have hard hits that look that painful or appear to have that much impact. I'd like to see more of that.
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RugalBernstein4439th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(1):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 13:46
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The game is popular enough around here that the second player position was broken the second day they had the cab and there have been fights related to the game...
Many "casual" gamers seem to appreciate the simple play style...
I've experienced a lot of " people whining when they are losing" and then changing there tunes completely when they win a round...
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Best site EVER: Link Here
Grave617th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"Re(2):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 13:48
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quote:
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I've experienced a lot of " people whining when they are losing" and then changing there tunes completely when they win a round...
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You'll have that with any game, though... I hear it a lot from the more casual gamers among my friends, though these are mostly the ones who don't play fighters regularly.
Personally, losing usually only makes me want to keep playing until I win, heh heh.
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israfel
44th Post
Rare Customer
"Re(6):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 14:30
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quote:
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There is a copy of this game in Washington state. We have it in our local arcade. Its very surprising! Its in the Bellis Fair Mall Tilt, in Bellingham. I like the game although the controls are touchy.....
Peace.
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What? Bellingham? I want to see one in TACOMA!! at the narrows plaza arcade!! or at least somewhere in Seattle.
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talbaineric5406th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(7):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 15:29
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Well,now that I've played it,I can say I kind of think it's crap,IMO.
I know Playmore may have not had much choice but to use the MVS hardware on this. But ugh. It's so old and outdated. I think the graphics are ugly.
The gameplay is actually pretty good. Depending on the machine it's on. My arcade has the game on an old Tekken 4 machine that the joystick sticks constantly.
The character cast is OK. But bland in most places. Shiki is awesome,though. I LOVE using her! Her and Guile are quite powerful. CPU Dan is actually scary. O_o He has a Ryo/Yuri Sho-ou-ken move not too mention his supers.
The hit effects and sounds SUCK.
And the stages are lousy. Too pixelated and totally uninteresting. Except for Nude Place(why is it called that? O_o) Station obsolete and Factory abandoned are some of the ugliest stages I've seen since KOF 2k1.
This game is 50/50 with me. I'm gonna go play more tomorrow. Just in case my arcade decides to get rid of it so soon.
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TALBAINANDCAMMY.COM! Celebrating 3 years of T&C Fanship.
Grave619th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"Re(8):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 15:41
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quote:
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I know Playmore may have not had much choice but to use the MVS hardware on this. But ugh. It's so old and outdated. I think the graphics are ugly.
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I don't know. Does non-state of the art automatically mean bad? I prefer the look of SvCC to that of CvS2, easily. The sprites look a lot better together overall than in CvS2... nobody sticks out quite like Morrigan did. And I like the look of the SF character... it kinda reminds me of SSF2T, which is a good thing. People might bitch about pixellation and what-not, but I think the game looks damn good in action. Especially on a ridiculously large projector. If it stands up even on that, I guess it passes the test for me...
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The gameplay is actually pretty good. Depending on the machine it's on. My arcade has the game on an old Tekken 4 machine that the joystick sticks constantly.
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If you like the gameplay, you can't think it's too crappy, can you?
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And the stages are lousy. Too pixelated and totally uninteresting. Except for Nude Place(why is it called that? O_o) Station obsolete and Factory abandoned are some of the ugliest stages I've seen since KOF 2k1.
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The stages are a bit dull, but not bad. They don't jump out and make you take notice, but some of them are pretty weak. I like the forest one a lot, though.
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This game is 50/50 with me. I'm gonna go play more tomorrow. Just in case my arcade decides to get rid of it so soon.
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I'm just curious, how much time have you logged into it, and how well do you know the gameplay systems? A friend of mine tore the game apart until I talked to him about it... turns out he didn't know much about anything going on, had no clue about the guard cancel front step, or what MAX could allow for.
The difficulty on the machine he played on was turned up ridiculously high, too... the second one he played on he liked better, heh.
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Luisinan419th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(9):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 16:06
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Strangely enough, I think this game may be easy for novice players to pick up. It is pretty simple (compared to GGXX, 3S, MvC2 and CvS2 and even KOF!). But I don't know if it's deep enough for it to remain popular for a long time. CvS2 and Mvc2 remain popular because there are so many options and characters. That's the biggest weakness in this game IMO. The lack of play options. There is some variety in the character selection but even then, it seems you can play everyone the same way-- sort of. Don't want to get nailed for making too big of generalizations. The control problems are weird. I don't think control is a problem, it's just a bit different and less forgiving.
The game does feel very old school yet not too old school. I am happy about it. I think other games have spoiled us and raised our expectations too high, that's why we weren't so "WOWED" by this game. But you have to consider this-- other 2D fighter franchises have been going on for a LONG time. The first KOF sucked, the first SFA sucked, the first SF3 sucked, the first CvS sucked (sorta sucked). For a 'first' game, SvC is nice. I think I like the gameplay in SvC1 then in CvS1. CvS1 was just a lot shinier and more exciting cause we got so many 'brand new' SNK sprites and it was the first of the inter company versus games.
I feel excited- like when I first saw SFA, SFA2 and SF3. I actually look much forward to going to the arcades. The only downside is that I won't discover any new characters or storylines when I go and play it- the internet has ruined that surprise!
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Bored? "160"
emeraldazn
145th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 17
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iunno bout SVC being simple..anyone can play a fighting game..but i think SVC is deep enough (combo wise, gameplay wise) to have players take some time to master.
i like the system in SVC..in kof2k2 u need about 3 stock to get a bc canceling combo (like o chris) and 4 stock to get a more powerful combo with a sdm canceled into it. now thats a heck of a chunk from your power meter..but SVC..once the maximum hits, u dont have that reluctance to do it, cuz its already activated and free as well!! just do everything b4 the bar finishes, and u're still left with lvl2 power meter. im curious if everyone has a cool MAX combo, hopefully everyone does..(Chun li though, i dont think she needs one..cuz she can do her easy dm combo, and even connect more afterwards!! heck if u are in the corner she can do her qcfx2+p or her exceed)
i think the graphics are FARRR from suck..just some of the special effects are not what i hoped to be.
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[this message was edited by emeraldazn on Thu 28 Aug 17:26]
KoOkyKyoji
13th Post
New Customer
"Re(6):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 17:40
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quote:
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There is a copy of this game in Washington state. We have it in our local arcade. Its very surprising! Its in the Bellis Fair Mall Tilt, in Bellingham. I like the game although the controls are touchy.....
Peace.
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Wow, a new reason to go down there again. :D
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TiamatRoar452th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(2).gif) Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 17:43
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quote:
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im curious if everyone has a cool MAX combo, hopefully everyone does..
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Well, Geese has a 100% max combo, if that counts as "cool".
Max Mode + Geese = YOU WIN!
...wait, lemme redo that equation.
IF[Opponent != (Geese OR Zero)] AND Geese AND [You = halfway-decent], YOU WIN!
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http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
Phoenix
25th Post
Rare Customer
"Re(3)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 18:20
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It's not like 3S doesn't have 100% combos involving supers. I don't see the big deal if it's a MAX combo. Even KOF 2k2 has 100% MAX combos.
You might also say...
Chunli or Magneto + You = WIN!
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"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
RugalBernstein4440th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(4)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 18:24
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People while whine and complain about everything no matter what; I've pretty much given up fighting it.
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Best site EVER: Link Here
Grave620th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 18:33
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quote:
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But I don't know if it's deep enough for it to remain popular for a long time. CvS2 and Mvc2 remain popular because there are so many options and characters. That's the biggest weakness in this game IMO. The lack of play options.
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Honestly, I don't feel the need for a fighting game to have 50+ characters or 6 different gameplay systems. I think sometimes simple is better. The two fighting games I play the most are probably SSF2T and Garou, and neither of them have absolutely massive, ludicrious character rosters, or a lot of options for gameplay modes. Unless you think 3 different TOP spots makes gameplay that much different.
Personally, I think MvC2 remains popular because when you press buttons, lots of people jump around and pretty things happen. But when I bitch about MvC2 I could go on for days, and then I'll probably bitch for days about the fire I take for the initial bitching, and I'm going to stop right here.
The options in CvS2 are fun, but are they really that important? I still would have liked the game with just one gameplay system, but the others are good to keep things exciting. Not necessary, but good.
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The control problems are weird. I don't think control is a problem, it's just a bit different and less forgiving.
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The game didn't seem to let me get away with being as sloppy as I usually am, no...
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the first SFA sucked
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the first SF3 sucked
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quote:
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I feel excited- like when I first saw SFA, SFA2 and SF3. I actually look much forward to going to the arcades. The only downside is that I won't discover any new characters or storylines when I go and play it- the internet has ruined that surprise!
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Ha. The internet ruins everything. If you like to see new movies and play RPGs, you have to be too careful, unless you want your plots totally destroyed. I even had the end of the new GB Castlevania ruined for me in normal IRC conversation. Grr.
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VManOfMana
202th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(3)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 19
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Well, I think I have played the game good enough to have an opinion.
I think its crap. (Normally I wouldn't describe the game as crap, but I am reusing the words of the thread topic).
Hit detection is pretty bad. I have seen Chun Li's standing fierce go thru my opponent more than once, get thrown through crouching roundhouses and I have seen attacks hit me without the sprites touching each other. Zero's spinning blade is the prime example, with him crossing me up when the blade is above him, not below him.
Zero is broken. Very broken. If you thought Sagat and Blanka are broken in CvS2 you have seen nothing. Sagat's CvS2 crouching fierce is nothing comapred to Zero's sweep. Priority is tremendous, it can counter almost any non-jab move after blocking, it combos with the spinning spear and if blocked, its safe from the guard cancel dash. Also, his bomb helper crossup is pretty stupid (unblockable after a setup), his spinning air attack is a perfect crossup, and I am not even mentioning his infinite.
Guard Cancel Dash is retarded. Except for Zero's spear sweep you can safely counter anything given that you won't dash into a multiple hit attack/combo. Besides, the double forward version is not that hard to do plus it costs almost no meter. When you have a move that makes any knowledge on beefy moves, footsies and frame advantages useless, something is wrong.
Want to know how is a game of me (Chun Li) vs. a friend (Zero)? Walk back and forth for 10 seconds until one of use decides to crossup (usually me). Once we are close, I have to wait for him to try to sweep to see if I can guard cancel dash and hit him (with something else than a short/jab). If he sweeps me, its SAFE chip damage with a spinning spear + sweep (Guard Cancel Dash cannot hit the sweep at that distance) or bomb trap. So all the game is about waiting for him to attack so I can guard cancel, and he is waiting for me to attack so he can sweep. Turtle hell. On both sides.
The game is good for a little fun for a little while, but other than that I cannot take it seriously. It is not that it is a "simpler" game, its just that its simplicity + balance + hit detection + other problems = retarded. There are others "simple" games out there that are much better (Super Turbo, Samurai Shodown II).
I expected better of this game. Playmore or whoever that is has to start fixing things up not with the graphics, but the gameplay. When you have a god-tier of two characters and one or two-move infinites in a "traditional" fighter (and Geese's doesn't need MAX for what I understand), there is something WRONG in your games.
Edits: some sentences didn't even make sense ^_^;;
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Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Thu 28 Aug 21:25]
TiamatRoar453th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(4)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 19:30
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quote:
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It's not like 3S doesn't have 100% combos involving supers. I don't see the big deal if it's a MAX combo. Even KOF 2k2 has 100% MAX combos.
You might also say...
Chunli or Magneto + You = WIN!
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No, Chunli and Magneto are powerful, but I've yet to hear anyone claim they're broken. Meanwhile, I've heard and seen Zero and Geese cheese and it is quite the extreme cheese, indeed. Buktooth, Viscant, and even Beelzebubble (who for a long time was borderline SNK fanboy and flaming Buktooth for claiming that Zero and Geese were broken, until he experienced it himself) all gave very detailed reports on the brokeness of Geese and Zero.
Oh, and I was being nice. Geese has a NON MAX MODE INFINITE. It's not just his 100% max mode combo. I only brought up the 100% max mode combo because it was in reply to the statement, "I hope there are cool max mode combos!" Geese does not need max mode to KICK YOUR ASS even when you're at full life and win the round.
...and that infinite of his is absurdedly simple.
Oh yea, Zero has a nonmax mode infinite too.
What's really sad is that many high level players state that Geese and Zero would probably be broken even without the infinites (they have all the tools needed for solid rushdown in a game where anyone who's halfway decent at guard cancel kills anyone elses' rush down besides Geese's and Zero's). It's just that the infinites and 100% combos make them even worse.
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http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
RugalBernstein4444th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(5)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20
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This is stupid. If you don't like the game, you don't need to play it. If you DO like the game, play it all you want. That is all. I'm surprised nobody has brought up the fact that Geese and Zero are hidden characters yet, anyway.
Edit: I can't think of a single fighting game that has come out in the past few years that people aren't sharply divided over... Seems every game has something "cheap" or "broken characters". I don't see why people can't have fun with these games regardless, if somebody needs to resort to using infinates, they're either too insecure about losing (and would probably freak out if they did) or they're just a general asshole.
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Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Thu 28 Aug 20:25]
Grave623th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"Re(6)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20:24
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I'm surprised nobody has brought up the fact that Geese and Zero are hidden characters yet, anyway.
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What, you think that's gonna stop the complaining any? The idea ran through my head, but... nah. The people who don't like it and insist that the game is broken aren't going to care.
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Rugalbernstein4445th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(7)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20
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What, you think that's gonna stop the complaining any? The idea ran through my head, but... nah. The people who don't like it and insist that the game is broken aren't going to care.
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I'm also amazed somebody is more or less defending Marvel vs. Capcom 2, which is the most broken fighting game in history. I don't hate the game, it's especially good at parties, but I mean, talk about a double standard. It's probably because it's nice and flashy... "Ooh, pretty!"
Edit: Now, I'm sure this is going to be met with a senselessly long post defending Marvel vs. Capcom 2 with all sorts of bizarre technical babble, but I don't care. I don't normally whine or complain about games, but if bitching is good enough for the goose, it's good enough for me.
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Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by Rugalbernstein on Thu 28 Aug 20:39]
emeraldazn
146th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(5)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20
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ok...ppl are saying geese's C, F+D, dash C, F+D repeat and zero's air dp as if its a revolution.. these are known for a while now...
and when i said "i hope everyone has a cool max combo" (NOT i hope there are cool max combos..sigh), i meant chars like earthquake, guile, ryu, akuma, ken..chars that i cant seem to think they would have max combos. we already know kasumi, iori, geese, kyo, terry, kim, etc.. (although the kof chars..most of them still retain their kof2k2 bc combos with just some additional canceling ability)
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[this message was edited by emeraldazn on Thu 28 Aug 20:42]
Hagen de Merak522th Post
New Red Carpet Member
"Re(8)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20:43
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I'm also amazed somebody is more or less defending Marvel vs. Capcom 2, which is the most broken fighting game in history. I don't hate the game, it's especially good at parties, but I mean, talk about a double standard. It's probably because it's nice and flashy... "Ooh, pretty!"
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dude, you dont like cable?
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emeraldazn
146th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(9)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20:45
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add storm, magneto, sentinel, and any other broken character u can think of to that list.
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RugalBernstein4445th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20:50
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add storm, magneto, sentinel, and any other broken character u can think of to that list.
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BTW, EmeraldZN... didn't you say something about an SS 2 tournament a long time ago, and needing more hardware?
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Best site EVER: Link Here
Spoon
78th Post
Occasional Customer
"Re(5)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20:54
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It's just that the infinites and 100% combos make them even worse.
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Agreed, easy infinites and 100%'s are no fun in competition.
You should see GGXX #Reload (yes, Reload, which was supposed to FIX problems...) with Faust: [close s.S, c.HS xx HCF+K (hold back)]xN or until they Burst out... that's THREE MOVES, no supers, no fancy setup, and the only part that's actually hard to time is linking the S after reeling them in, and even that isn't THAT hard.
And for those that say, "If you hate this game, why play it?", well, this has been said a million times, but it's because we care. Many of us care about the history behind this, and we wanted to see this game be the next best thing, etc. It's not out of pure spite that we say this stuff. Usually, anyway.
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emeraldazn
148th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(2)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 20
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mmmmmmmm..nope :)
*gives Spoon a high-five* i thank there are ppl who understand in this world.
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[this message was edited by emeraldazn on Thu 28 Aug 20:56]
RugalBernstein4447th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(6)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 21:05
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Spoon, I agree with much of what you say (and THANK YOU for speaking constructively) but it's essentially my view that these things are made for fun (which they are, games are made to entertain) and if somebody needs to use an infinate to win, they defeat the purpose of the game. I feel the same way about "cheat codes" and the like. I take games very seriously, otherwise I wouldn't squander massive amounts of money on them, but I think some people lose touch with reality when it comes to some aspects of them, as they do with any hobby.
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Best site EVER: Link Here
RugalBernstein4448th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(3)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 21:11
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mmmmmmmm..nope :)
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Yeah, found it.. it was UnCauzi.
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Best site EVER: Link Here
OYashiroForever452th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(7)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 21:32
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Spoon, I agree with much of what you say (and THANK YOU for speaking constructively) but it's essentially my view that these things are made for fun (which they are, games are made to entertain) and if somebody needs to use an infinate to win, they defeat the purpose of the game. I feel the same way about "cheat codes" and the like. I take games very seriously, otherwise I wouldn't squander massive amounts of money on them, but I think some people lose touch with reality when it comes to some aspects of them, as they do with any hobby.
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I'd chime in here with my usual response, but I hardly even think it's necessary anymore. People play fighting games for different reasons. Some play "just for kicks", which is perfectly fine so long as you don't shun/denigrate/look down the other kind of people... those who play these games competitively and to win. Naturally, the reverse applies as well. People who play competitively need to acknowledge that for those playing for shits and giggles, games like Killer Instinct and Tekken 4 are hella fun.
As a game to play for fun, SvCC is great: great character interaction, fanboyish roster, etc. good times. As a game to be played seriously at a competitive level, all signs are pointing to the game being, shall we say, less than stellar. I haven't played it enough personally to make any kind of judgment either way, but from what I've seen and read, it doesn't look good.
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"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
RugalBernstein4450th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(8)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 21:40
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Some play "just for kicks", which is perfectly fine so long as you don't shun/denigrate/look down the other kind of people...
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The phrase "shits and giggles" isn't exactly the most respectful towards people who play "just for kicks".. and as a player who cares more about having fun than winning, I don't think I'm half bad. Although it probably isn't intentional, you pretty frequently stratify the issue in to the "fighting game elite", the "high-level players", who are "good", and those who play for "shits and giggles". Cough.
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Best site EVER: Link Here
VManOfMana
202th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(8)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 21:40
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I'm also amazed somebody is more or less defending Marvel vs. Capcom 2, which is the most broken fighting game in history. I don't hate the game, it's especially good at parties, but I mean, talk about a double standard. It's probably because it's nice and flashy... "Ooh, pretty!"
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Well, now you got a new champ in broken games: SvC.
In MvC2's defense (and I am not a serious MvC2 player myself - its *low* in my list), the main difference is that MvC2's engine is so flexible that things like infinites are no surprise. On the other hand, in SvC, a game where you dont have air combos, double hyper combos, assists, air dashing, super cancel or things like that, infinites are not expected to exist. Even less one or two moves infinites, and even less them being found so fast. Third Strike has 100% combos, but either they are unpractically impossible to set up, or they work only under certain characters and include a dizzy, meaning that your combo is actually two combos which count as one because of the dizzy, and involve a lot more than just two moves. Makoto's 100% combo on Gouki include grabbing, standing fierces, supers (and you need to pick the correct one), dash under the opponent, doing shoryuken motions, jumping, and dizzying. A little more complex than Geese and Zero's infinites, and I bet it took more than three weeks to be found out.
And there is a main difference between a cheat code and an SvC infinite (and even an inifnite in other games): you are not doing anything illegal on an SvC infinite. You are not doing anything against the game's basic design, nor you are overstretching the game's rules like in the case of Roll Cancelling in CvS2 or crouch cancel infinites in Alpha 3. These infinites are the product of poor game design and testing, and that's what makes the game suck.
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Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
RugalBernstein4451th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(9)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 21:42
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Ugh, as I expected. As if the roll cancel or crouch cancel infinites aren't bugs due to "sloppy testing and design", either. ;D I think somebody is bitter because they lost with Chun-Li.
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Best site EVER: Link Here
Grave624th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"SHIT + FAN" , posted Thu 28 Aug 21:47
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Oh man. I think this kinda thing was inevitable.
This battle is about to explode. Fight!
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Phoenix
27th Post
Rare Customer
"Re(5)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 21
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No, Chunli and Magneto are powerful, but I've yet to hear anyone claim they're broken. Meanwhile, I've heard and seen Zero and Geese cheese and it is quite the extreme cheese, indeed. Buktooth, Viscant, and even Beelzebubble (who for a long time was borderline SNK fanboy and flaming Buktooth for claiming that Zero and Geese were broken, until he experienced it himself) all gave very detailed reports on the brokeness of Geese and Zero.
Oh, and I was being nice. Geese has a NON MAX MODE INFINITE. It's not just his 100% max mode combo. I only brought up the 100% max mode combo because it was in reply to the statement, "I hope there are cool max mode combos!" Geese does not need max mode to KICK YOUR ASS even when you're at full life and win the round.
...and that infinite of his is absurdedly simple.
Oh yea, Zero has a nonmax mode infinite too.
What's really sad is that many high level players state that Geese and Zero would probably be broken even without the infinites (they have all the tools needed for solid rushdown in a game where anyone who's halfway decent at guard cancel kills anyone elses' rush down besides Geese's and Zero's). It's just that the infinites and 100% combos make them even worse.
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No offense, but did you really think that I didn't know about the infinites? You're acting as if the Zero and Geese infinites haven't been posted on the net and raved about several billion times already. Btw, THX FOR STATING THE OBVIOUS and for being so nice. =P
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"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
[this message was edited by Phoenix on Thu 28 Aug 21:51]
Phoenix
27th Post
Rare Customer
"Re(9)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 22:00
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I'm also amazed somebody is more or less defending Marvel vs. Capcom 2, which is the most broken fighting game in history. I don't hate the game, it's especially good at parties, but I mean, talk about a double standard. It's probably because it's nice and flashy... "Ooh, pretty!"
Well, now you got a new champ in broken games: SvC.
In MvC2's defense (and I am not a serious MvC2 player myself - its *low* in my list), the main difference is that MvC2's engine is so flexible that things like infinites are no surprise. On the other hand, in SvC, a game where you dont have air combos, double hyper combos, assists, air dashing, super cancel or things like that, infinites are not expected to exist. Even less one or two moves infinites, and even less them being found so fast. Third Strike has 100% combos, but either they are unpractically impossible to set up, or they work only under certain characters and include a dizzy, meaning that your combo is actually two combos which count as one because of the dizzy, and involve a lot more than just two moves. Makoto's 100% combo on Gouki include grabbing, standing fierces, supers (and you need to pick the correct one), dash under the opponent, doing shoryuken motions, jumping, and dizzying. A little more complex than Geese and Zero's infinites, and I bet it took more than three weeks to be found out.
And there is a main difference between a cheat code and an SvC infinite (and even an inifnite in other games): you are not doing anything illegal on an SvC infinite. You are not doing anything against the game's basic design, nor you are overstretching the game's rules like in the case of Roll Cancelling in CvS2 or crouch cancel infinites in Alpha 3. These infinites are the product of poor game design and testing, and that's what makes the game suck.
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Is banning Zero and Geese really that hard? They could ban all the secret bosses in the tournaments and I wouldn't care. And let's not bring up Alpha 3's hit detection and infinites.
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"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
OYashiroForever455th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(9)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 22
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The phrase "shits and giggles" isn't exactly the most respectful towards people who play "just for kicks".. and as a player who cares more about having fun than winning, I don't think I'm half bad. Although it probably isn't intentional, you pretty frequently stratify the issue in to the "fighting game elite", the "high-level players", who are "good", and those who play for "shits and giggles". Cough.
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I would tend to agree, Rugal... you're no slouch. However, in comparison to the top players, guys like you and I suck. I know... I've played many of the best and been thoroughly beaten. It's not intended as an insult, just the bare truth. I've accepted the fact that I'm a mediocre player. Granted, not every "serious, competitive" player is better than every "just for fun" player (natural talent certainly plays a hand), but a statistically significant portion would be.
I always pick my words very carefully. People who play "for fun" are rarely better-than-average players. Why? I'll let Mr. David Sirlin, competitive SF player and all-around good guy, answer that one for me (be warned, he uses the word "scrub" quite frequently which many people don't like):
"Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he’s again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules." (Sirlin, sirlin.net
As for the crouch-cancel infinites and roll cancels, they're actually fairly difficult to do, especially in the heat of battle. Tiger-Kneeing Zero's anti-air move and doing C, F+B with Geese isn't. It's like playing Slash Sogetsu in Amakusa Kourin... yes, it takes a little bit of talent to correctly place your Raged water spouts, but not much.
Edit: Not even going to bother defending MvC2... big difference between exciting broken and boring broken (MvC2 vs. CvS1).
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"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
[this message was edited by OYashiroForever on Thu 28 Aug 22:23]
emeraldazn
148th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Thu 28 Aug 22:26
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OYash have u done the geese infinite yourself? heck, did anyone here tried the geese infinite themself?
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Fygee778th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
"Re(2)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 02:32
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You know, I think I'm starting to see a pattern in most of the hit detection complaints I've seen. Most of them are Chun Li players.
I've watched pretty much all the vids released on the net, and all of the high quality ones that let you get a real good look at the action. All of them seemed to have spot-on hit detection. Except one. The one neojedi posted a little while ago featuring a match between Chun Li and Shiki. You can clearly see one of Chun Li's kicks go straight though Shiki but not connect at all. It also looked like a couple of moves Shiki performed connected on Chun Li that were a pixel or two away from actually physically connecting.
My theory is this. There were some pretty bad hit detection problems during the early beta (take a look at the Dhalsim vs Mai vid on SvC and see how his heavy punch goes straight through Mai without connecting at least twice), but that they managed to iron out a whole lot of them by the time the game hit retail. Unfortunately, for some reason or another, they didn't manage to fix Chun Li's problems in time, or perhaps thought they did but new ones that they didn't notice came up.
At any rate, I bet $10 that all the bugs and infinites will be fixed when the PS2 port hits.
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VManOfMana
204th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 08
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Ugh, as I expected. As if the roll cancel or crouch cancel infinites aren't bugs due to "sloppy testing and design", either. ;D I think somebody is bitter because they lost with Chun-Li.
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Hardly. I go 50/50 on my matches against Zero and 75/25 on my matches against Geese. Besides, I am used to losing since I am the one who practices the less (grad school) and I am the one with the worst execution. It was a matter of time before everyone else got either equal or above me.
Read my post again. Roll Cancelling and crouch cancel infinites (and to a lesser degree Kara Cancelling grabs in 3S) are in the gray zone because although they still fit within the game's rule, they use them in "special" situations. So, these are the product of players understanding the engnine so much that they "outsmart" the designers, and they certainly are not obvious things to do (how long it took to discover RC? 1.5 - 2 years?)
In SvC, you don't have to stretch any rules to create the infinites.
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Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Fri 29 Aug 08:06]
TiamatRoar456th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(2)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 08
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Ugh, as I expected. As if the roll cancel or crouch cancel infinites aren't bugs due to "sloppy testing and design", either. ;D I think somebody is bitter because they lost with Chun-Li.
Hardly. I go 50/50 on my matches against Zero and 75/25 on my matches against Geese.
Read my post again. Roll Cancelling and crouch cancel infinites (and to a lesser degree Kara Cancelling grabs in 3S) are in the gray zone because although they still fit within the game's rule, they use them in "special" situations. So, these are the product of players understanding the engnine so much that they "outsmart" the designers, and they certainly are not obvious things to do (how long it took to discover RC? 1.5 - 2 years?)
In SvC, you don't have to stretch any rules to create the infinites.
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I've learned to never get into extended arguments about SNK with anyone who's nick name contains Rugal, Kyo, or Terry in it, or anyone who's Av is that of an SNK main character good guy (though oddly enough, people with Iori as an avatar are usually fine).
In fact, it's generally better to stay away from anyone who's name is based off of a fighting game main character (good or bad guy) in general. And in some cases, even secondaries. People who's names are based off of vague characters like say, Baby Bonnie Hood, are usually fine, though. Oh, and an exception to this rule seems to be anyone who's female. I've yet to run into a fanboyish girl despite seeing many of them take up names of main characters as their message board names.
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http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Fri 29 Aug 08:08]
Juan3414th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"STOP ALL THE DOWNLOADING!" , posted Fri 29 Aug 08
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Judging people from avatars? no fair. Specially coming from a person with an oversized avatar of an street fighter 1 quote and a signature pointing to a broken link to an street fighter plot faq?
Pot calling kettle!
Edit: HELP COMPUTER!
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I've learned to never get into extended arguments about SNK with anyone who's nick name contains Rugal, Kyo, or Terry in it, or anyone who's Av is that of an SNK main character good guy (though oddly enough, people with Iori as an avatar are usually fine).
In fact, it's generally better to stay away from anyone who's name is based off of a fighting game main character (good or bad guy) in general. And in some cases, even secondaries. People who's names are based off of vague characters like say, Baby Bonnie Hood, are usually fine, though. Oh, and an exception to this rule seems to be anyone who's female. I've yet to run into a fanboyish girl despite seeing many of them take up names of main characters as their message board names.
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im a computar
[this message was edited by Juan on Fri 29 Aug 08:30]
TiamatRoar458th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(1):STOP ALL THE DOWNLOADING!" , posted Fri 29 Aug 08
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Judging people from avatars? no fair. Specially coming from a person with an oversized avatar of an street fighter 1 quote and a signature pointing to a broken link to an street fighter plot faq?
Pot calling kettle!
Edit: HELP COMPUTER!
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That's an actual Battletoads quote, actually :) I got it when I beat the game and I just had to take a screenshot because it was so hilariously corny. ...it's the equivalent of me taking an SNKgrish quote like "Pansy foe you are!" or "What a tough". If anything, it bashes Capcom, not praises it.
Oh, and the link to the plot guide works now, by the way (hint: Copy and paste). And anyone who's read it thoroughly should be able to tell that I don't exactly enjoy a lot of Street Fighter's plot. I just chronicle it. You can pretty much find a comment from me saying "Why did you do that, Capcom!?" in nearly every other character bio or so.
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http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Fri 29 Aug 08:57]
Juan3415th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"its a trap" , posted Fri 29 Aug 08
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The whole avatar thing was uncalled for. woosh.
I would also like to point out that Sushi Bunny might be not human, but an evil macro script, note the original post:
Hello everybody,
Long time no write here. Well, I moved into a new apartment just minutes away from Capcom, and it seems nice there. Anyways, my brother said at a local Golfland, there's an arcade version of this, and he said it was crap. I dunno. I was gonna try it, but my comic deadline for my story kept nagging in my head. Any comments?
sssushi :O)
This is almost identical to a post regarding the matrix reloaded sucking and how his friend (or brother or uncle or family dog, or santa claus) saw it before everyone else. His next post will probably be about how a friend of his (or brother or uncle or family dog, or santa claus) saw the movie in a super secret screening and he said IT SUCKED HARD CORE. Its a castlevania pattern!
ITS A TRAP PEOPLE
Edit: detective
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That's an actual Battletoads quote, actually :) I got it when I beat the game and I just had to take a screenshot because it was so hilariously corny.
Oh, and the link to the plot guide works now, by the way. And anyone who's read it thoroughly should be able to tell that I don't exactly enjoy a lot of Street Fighter's plot. I just chronicle it. You can pretty much find a comment from me saying "Why did you do that, Capcom!?" in nearly every other character bio or so.
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im a computar
[this message was edited by Juan on Fri 29 Aug 08:44]
TiamatRoar458th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 08
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Eh, fine. Ditch the avatar comments. I suppose maybe I just... [delete]. Blech, might as well not risk starting things up again.
Ah well. Getting back on topic,
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Is banning Zero and Geese really that hard? They could ban all the secret bosses in the tournaments and I wouldn't care. And let's not bring up Alpha 3's hit detection and infinites.
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Not that I'm completely sure, but considering how popular Zero and Geese as characters are (NOT how popular as broken infinite crazy rushdown machines they are), banning them from SvC tournaments when so many people were looking forward to playing as them would probably make the game... significantly less popular. Especially when they offer a very significantly different style of gameplay and fighting style (as opposed to say, banning Akuma from Super Turbo, where you don't lose much variety because he was basically just Ryu on super duper ultra magnificent stereoids, anyway). It could hurt the tournament scene. Or maybe it won't. I'm not exactly a professor regarding what makes a game popular for tournaments and what doesn't.
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http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Fri 29 Aug 09:00]
Phoenix
29th Post
Rare Customer
"Re(2)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 09
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Eh, fine. Ditch the avatar comments. I suppose maybe I just... [delete]. Blech, might as well not risk starting things up again.
Ah well. Getting back on topic,
Is banning Zero and Geese really that hard? They could ban all the secret bosses in the tournaments and I wouldn't care. And let's not bring up Alpha 3's hit detection and infinites.
Not that I'm completely sure, but considering how popular Zero and Geese as characters are (NOT how popular as broken infinite crazy rushdown machines they are), banning them from SvC tournaments when so many people were looking forward to playing as them would probably make the game... significantly less popular. Especially when they offer a very significantly different style of gameplay and fighting style (as opposed to say, banning Akuma from Super Turbo, where you don't lose much variety because he was basically just Ryu on super duper ultra magnificent stereoids, anyway). It could hurt the tournament scene. Or maybe it won't. I'm not exactly a professor regarding what makes a game popular for tournaments and what doesn't.
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Never the less banning those two would solve a lot of the problems, seeing as how everybody and their dogs are complaining about Zero and Geese. I'm sure the fans will see how it's beneficial in the long run.
For some reason, it seems that only the people who diss the hell out of this game are going "but banning them would hurt the tournament scene" whereas the people who love the game are going "yeah, we should ban those two."
Btw, don't you have a Juni, Juli, doll avatar at SRK? I'm just gonna leave it at that.
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"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
[this message was edited by Phoenix on Fri 29 Aug 09:29]
TiamatRoar459th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(3)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 09
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Never the less banning those two would solve a lot of the problems, seeing as how everybody and their dogs are complaining about Zero and Geese. I'm sure the fans will see how it's beneficial in the long run.
For some reason, it seems that only the people who diss the hell out of this game are going "but banning them would hurt the tournament scene" whereas the people who love the game are going "yeah, we should ban those two."
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I've seen several people bash the game who think Zero and Geese should be banned (typically with comments like "The game will still suck without them, but at least it'll suck less. And hey, the game's still less boring than CvS2, even if that's not saying much, so they just have to make it less broken by getting rid of Geese and Zero"), and several people who love the game and say "Geese and Zero shouldn't be banned. You just have to find counter strategies to them." so I'm not sure how much that applies.
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Btw, don't you have a Juni, Juli, doll avatar at SRK? So wouldn't what you said apply to you- if it's even true?
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Does it apply to me? If it's true, and if it does, that'd be great! Since I said this:
"People who's names are based off of vague characters like say, Baby Bonnie Hood, are usually fine, though."
Juni and Juli are pretty vague. Not exactly the most mainstream characters in the world. My avatar at shoryuken.com, however, is not Juli and Juni. It's Jianyu, Xiayu, and Fevrier. Characters so vague that their names aren't even in the game (and heck, a sprite for Jianyu doesn't even exist! And people still are arguing about how exactly to spell their names, even!). So I'd love it if it applied to me :D ...alas, I said to withdraw my comment about the avatars, though. Doh!
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http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Fri 29 Aug 09:31]
RugalBernstein4455th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(4)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 09
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"People who's names are based off of vague characters like say, Baby Bonnie Hood, are usually fine, though."
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Serious double standard there; you also seem to forget I've frequently stuck up for Capcom vs. SNK 2 in the past. I don't prefer either company as such, and in fact, my original name here was going to be "Dracula_Hyakushaku", but at the time, it was a fighting-game centric board, so I thought I should "fit with the theme". It seems that whenever things get ugly, everything goes to fanboy name-calling. You used to bitch at people because they DARED to get an aspect of the Street Fighter "storyline" wrong... "Yes, Zangief is gay, whether you like it or not! He has a picture of Balrog on his mirror, blah blah blah.." but wait, that's okay, because you currently use a Battletoads avatar featuring the Dark Queen, and not your old Juli avatar! Since it's an obscure character, you are obviously less of a fan boy and are of higher moral standing and integrity than I! (seems to me obsessing over obscure characters nobody cares about would make you more of a fan-boy, but I won't bring that issue in, because it doesn't bode well for me. ;D) Oh, and I withdraw all these previous comments, like you.
Edit: Also, Orochiyashiro, I actually agree with your original post more than this excerpt... his argument is fundamentally flawed at its base; in essence, he says "whatever goes, goes, when it comes to "high level play"; this is probably to justify it when some poor player comes in and is willing to give a game a try and some asshole comes along and double perfects him for "shits and giggles", or more likely to boost his abysmal ego. The only logical reason he could be against an "easy to do infinate" is because it "levels the playing field" and would actually give somebody of average or above average ability a chance of beating somebody who obsesses over the game (thus damaging their delicate ego and causing them to call people "scrubs")
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[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Fri 29 Aug 09:58]
emeraldazn
149th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(4)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 09:53
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lol at the avatar topic, it was just sooo random.
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RugalBernstein4456th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(5)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:00
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lol at the avatar topic, it was just sooo random.
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Sometimes when people don't know how to fight back, they pull things out of their asses.
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TiamatRoar460th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(5)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10
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Serious double standard there; you also seem to forget I've frequently stuck up for Capcom vs. SNK 2 in the past.
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It actually didn't have anything to do with what company or game you defended so much as that "I think you just lost too much with Chun-Li" comment. Heaven forbid that someone might actually have a valid complaint about the game. Instead, you just brush it off and blame it on that person's playing skills when you never saw that person actually play.
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You used to bitch at people because they DARED to get an aspect of the Street Fighter "storyline" wrong... "Yes, Zangief is gay, whether you like it or not! He has a picture of Balrog on his mirror, blah blah blah.." but wait, that's okay, because you currently use a Battletoads avatar featuring the Dark Queen, and not your old Juli avatar! Since it's an obscure character, you are obviously less of a fan boy and are of higher moral standing and integrity than I! (seems to me obsessing over obscure characters nobody cares about would make you more of a fan-boy, but I won't bring that issue in, because it doesn't bode well for me. ;D)
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People who said that Zangief wasn't gay always made sure to include "Tiamat is a bullshitting liar!" or something along those lines. Thus, you can expect me to lash out in retaliation in kind. They strike first, I strike back harder. I take personal attacks on my integrity very seriously (or at least, personal attacks that contain stuff like "That author of that plot guide is making up stuff and pulling it out of his ass."
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Also, Orochiyashiro, I actually agree with your original post more than this excerpt... his argument is fundamentally flawed at its base; in essence, he says "whatever goes, goes, when it comes to "high level play"; this is probably to justify it when some poor player comes in and is willing to give a game a try and some asshole comes along and double perfects him for "shits and giggles", or more likely to boost his abysmal ego. The only logical reason he could be against an "easy to do infinate" is because it "levels the playing field" and would actually give somebody of average or above average ability a chance of beating somebody who obsesses over the game (thus damaging their delicate ego and causing them to call people "scrubs")
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Not that I'm a high level player, but if the person really IS a high level player playing with the "Do anything to win" mentality in this case, then that person would already be playing as Geese or Zero and making full use of their infinites. Thus, when he loses to someone else using Geese or Zero's infinites, instead of the "That's cheap!" reaction, the typical high level player will think, "I'm winning for really lame reasons and I just lost for that same lame reason." At least, that's the tone I've seen when I asked various people about it.
On the alternate scenario, maybe the high level player is purposefully playing as a lower tier character (in this case, not Geese or Zero). In this case, if the high level player loses, the typical thought pattern would probably be something like "Bleh, I should have chosen Geese/Zero, too."
In either scenario, the high level player won't call the other person a scrub. In fact, I've never seen that term used to describe the brokenness of SvC. "Cheese" is typically the word I've seen, which is why I myself made sure to include "half-decent" when I talked about the playing skill required. In fact, I rarely even see "Cheap" used. Because Geese and Zero aren't really that cheap in that it actually takes a little work to use them correctly (the main problem being that no amount of work can make other characters stack up to a decent Geese or Zero at all). One of the most powerful assets of Geese and Zero is their ability to give a good rushdown against guard cancel while no one else can (or if they can, no one's been able to find out how, yet. And they've been searching pretty hard), and scrubs... well, they can't guard cancel well. So the fact that a scrub can't guard cancel well means they're vulnerable to ANY offense, and Geese/Zero isn't needed to anhilate the scrub, thus it isn't a big deal if the scrub is using Geese or Zero and the high level player is not, because the scrub will still fall to the high level player's offense thanks to lack of guard cancel on the scrub's part. Infinites are just icing on the cake (which is why high level players always say that the infinites are only icing on the cake. The cake itself consists of Geese's and Zero's other abilities). Very very seldom, if every, will a high level player ever lose to a scrub because of an infinite in SvC. It's Geese's and Zero's ability to rush down past the all-mighty guard cancel that really matters, and scrubs can't guard cancel well, so...
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http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Fri 29 Aug 10:10]
RugalBernstein4460th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(6)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10
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It actually didn't have anything to do with what company or game you defended so much as that "I think you just lost too much with Chun-Li" comment.
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That was intentionally to be an ass. It reminds me a lot of SNK fans who whined about C v S because the "SNK charas were changed so much". Besides, that was addressed to him, not you, and I don't see the "fanboy" comics as being any different, albeit much more ironic and humorous.
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Heaven forbid that someone might actually have a valid complaint about the game. Instead, you just brush it off and blame it on that person's playing skills when you never saw that person actually play.
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In case you didn't notice, I address many "valid complaints" as well. I had originally typed a considerably longer reply to Vmanofmana about infinates, how they aren't intended to be in the game and if they HAD been found they would have been cut, much like roll-canceling in C v S 2, and if somebody needs to resort to them to win it shows what a poor sportsman they are anyway, but I was pretty ticked off at the time and went with the "jerk" approach.
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Not that I'm a high level player...
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Then why should any of the other stuff in this paragraph matter for you at all?
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Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Fri 29 Aug 10:15]
DarkZero
238th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(5)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:15
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lol at the avatar topic, it was just sooo random.
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If by "random", you mean "completely fucking retarded", then we're agreed!
And does anyone else just hate infinites because they waste a character slot? Any obviously overpowered character is immediately banned from tournament play and shunned in arcade or online play. Once the game has been analyzed to death and it has been discovered that picking this or that character is, indeed, CHEATING, under the basic "having an unfair advantage" definition of the word, those characters are effectively removed from the game because no one will play them, no will want to play against them, and no one will allow them in tournaments.
If Geese and Zero really are overpowered to the point where they have an unfair advantage, that will mean that there are six unplayable characters in SvC: Geese, Zero, Mr. Karate, Shin Gouki, Athena, and Red Arremer. That's just a huge waste of time and potential. It gives me the same feeling that I get when I read quotes in game developer interviews like, "We intended since the beginning to make Trish a playable character, but Capcom said we had to get the game out NOW." Or those FAQs where somebody dug into a game with a GameShark and found tons of cool things that were disabled in its final version. With another week or two of development time, Zero and Geese could've been balanced, especially if they hadn't insisted on keeping EIGHT of the game's playable characters secret during the beta test, which apparently caught most of the bugs for the characters that it actually tested.
It's just a waste of potential. A waste that was caused by laziness.
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OYashiroForever456th Post
Gold Customer
"Re Re Re Re etc. etc. Competitive vs. For Fun" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:17
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quote Also, Orochiyashiro, I actually agree with your original post more than this excerpt... his argument is fundamentally flawed at its base; in essence, he says "whatever goes, goes, when it comes to "high level play"; this is probably to justify it when some poor player comes in and is willing to give a game a try and some asshole comes along and double perfects him for "shits and giggles", or more likely to boost his abysmal ego. The only logical reason he could be against an "easy to do infinate" is because it "levels the playing field" and would actually give somebody of average or above average ability a chance of beating somebody who obsesses over the game (thus damaging their delicate ego and causing them to call people "scrubs")
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Actually, if you read the remainder of that article and a couple of the follow-up ones he's written, you'll see that he actually places some degree of value in playing for fun, particularly outside of the tournament environment (it promotes bringing new members in to the fold and gives you an opportunity to test counters and strategies that you wouldn't use in tournament play because they're not 100% safe).
What Sirlin's referring to here is the fact that many people who play "for fun" set up arbitrary rules that prevent them from learning a game properly (no throwing, no V-ism, no infinites, etc.). When you set up these kind of arbitrary rules (for example, I seem to recall you mentioning that you refuse to play ratio games in CvS2), you limit the amount you can learn about a game. In the case of SvC's infinites, he would most likely recommend learning them and playing against people who can perform them well so that you can learn how to effectively bait and counter the infinite set-ups. That's how people have learned to beat/avoid a lot of the craziness in MvC2: you play against it enough and you figure out counter-strategies.
Oh... and a "scrub" is normally the person who whines about losing to stuff that's "cheap, unfair, cheesy, unbalanced", etc. Top players, for the most part, are gracious losers and recognize that "if it's in the game, it's in the game".
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"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
RugalBernstein4460th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(6)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:19
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If Geese and Zero really are overpowered to the point where they have an unfair advantage, that will mean that there are six unplayable characters in SvC: Geese, Zero, Mr. Karate, Shin Gouki, Athena, and Red Arremer. That's just a huge waste of time and potential. It gives me the same feeling that I get when I read quotes in game developer interviews like, "We intended since the beginning to make Trish a playable character, but Capcom said we had to get the game out NOW." Or those FAQs where somebody dug into a game with a GameShark and found tons of cool things that were disabled in its final version. With another week or two of development time, Zero and Geese could've been balanced, especially if they hadn't insisted on keeping EIGHT of the game's playable characters secret during the beta test, which apparently caught most of the bugs for the characters that it actually tested.
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I agree, they should have had the "CPU" characters selectable in the testing. It probably would have averted a lot of this. By nature, though, I don't think "Serious" Mr. Karate, Shin Gouki, Athena or Red Arremer should necessarily be tested, though, considering they're bosses; I know people like the idea of a "fair boss", but that just isn't something we'll likely see in a fighting game. I've been thinking about it, too, and Geese might have had the same infinate in KOF '96 (I remember he has one) but I'll need to check that later.
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Rugalbernstein4461th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(1):Re Re Re Re etc. etc. Competitive vs. F" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:22
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What Sirlin's referring to here is the fact that many people who play "for fun" set up arbitrary rules that prevent them from learning a game properly (no throwing, no V-ism, no infinites, etc.). When you set up these kind of arbitrary rules (for example, I seem to recall you mentioning that you refuse to play ratio games in CvS2), you limit the amount you can learn about a game. In the case of SvC's infinites, he would most likely recommend learning them and playing against people who can perform them well so that you can learn how to effectively bait and counter the infinite set-ups. That's how people have learned to beat/avoid a lot of the craziness in MvC2: you play against it enough and you figure out counter-strategies.
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Allright, I have more respect for his position, then. The original snippet you had posted didn't make him look exactly like the kind of guy I would consider a good sport. ^_^
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Phoenix
30th Post
Rare Customer
"Re(6)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:22
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Lots of characters rush past guard cancel. Some examples include Shiki and Tabasa. And the main reason people want Zero and Geese banned is cuz of their infinites. Nevermind the fact that the game's been out for a month and most places just got it.
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"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
Rugalbernstein4463th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(7)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10
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Lots of characters rush past guard cancel. Some examples include Shiki and Tabasa. And the main reason people want Zero and Geese banned is cuz of their infinites. Nevermind the fact that the game's been out for a month and most places just got it.
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People still like to ignore the fact Geese and Zero are hidden, anyway. I'd bet all of the hidden characters are at least moderately overpowered; I bet Mr. Karate and Shin Gouki can do crazy shit, too, it's just that nobody has decided to flip dip three (or two and eight, it's always one of those combinations..) and whip them out to see what they can do yet.
While SNK vs. Capcom obviously has some balance issues, I think this dispute comes down to one major factor: " Capcom vs. SNK 2 revenge". We're seeing a repeat of all the SNK freaks bitching about Capcom vs. SNK 2's supposedly "raped" SNK charas. In this case, Capcom freaks are latching on to whatever bad thing that comes up in the game and are going to hammer it until the cows come home. It's the circle of life!
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[this message was edited by Rugalbernstein on Fri 29 Aug 10:36]
DarkZero
239th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(8)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 10:51
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People still like to ignore the fact Geese and Zero are hidden, anyway. I'd bet all of the hidden characters are at least moderately overpowered; I bet Mr. Karate and Shin Gouki can do crazy shit, too, it's just that nobody has decided to flip dip three (or two and eight, it's always one of those combinations..) and whip them out to see what they can do yet.
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When fully ONE QUARTER of the characters are "hidden characters" and one of them is a formerly unplayable boss who has been specifically ratcheted down to the power level of an average character (Goenitz), I think people stop regarding hidden characters as a novelty and start regarding them as a serious part of the roster. It's one thing to declare "no hidden characters" in games like Garou, Last Blade, or KOF2k where there are only one or two secret characters, but it's another when 25% of the cast is hidden.
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I agree, they should have had the "CPU" characters selectable in the testing. It probably would have averted a lot of this. By nature, though, I don't think "Serious" Mr. Karate, Shin Gouki, Athena or Red Arremer should necessarily be tested, though, considering they're bosses; I know people like the idea of a "fair boss", but that just isn't something we'll likely see in a fighting game. I've been thinking about it, too, and Geese might have had the same infinate in KOF '96 (I remember he has one) but I'll need to check that later.
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All I meant was that it was bad enough that there were four unplayable characters instead of the usual one (Rugal, Goenitz, Krizalid) or two (Grant/Kain, Musashi/Kagami, O. Zero/Igniz) without adding two more. I think that it's just a waste of time to create four unplayable characters, especially when you're taking time away from balancing the other characters and thus detracting from the multiplayer side of the game. I also don't think that "fair bosses" are ridiculous, provided that you mean a boss that's playable and balanced (I couldn't tell if we were on the same page or not). Most people that have mentioned Athena have said that Orochi Iori is actually a tougher boss than she is, and Orochi Iori is a playable character that apparently isn't as overpowered in the hands of a human being as Geese or Zero. Kain also would've been quite balanced in Mark of the Wolves if someone had spent a little more time on the neutered version of him that they let you play as. The only reason that he's not a balanced character that's acceptable for versus play is that no one checked him for infinites.
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RugalBernstein4464th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(9)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 11
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I also don't think that "fair bosses" are ridiculous, provided that you mean a boss that's playable and balanced (I couldn't tell if we were on the same page or not).
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I agree, if the boss is intented to be fair and usable and is usable without messing with dip switches (Real Bout Special Krauser, etc..). I just don't care for it when people bitch about a boss who is SUPPOSED to be overpowered and unusable.
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Most people that have mentioned Athena have said that Orochi Iori is actually a tougher boss than she is, and Orochi Iori is a playable character that apparently isn't as overpowered in the hands of a human being as Geese or Zero.
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Yeah, I said that myself. Just because the computer isn't so hot with Athena doesn't mean she can't be unbelievably good in the hands of a human, though. As soon as the home cart comes out, and then I'll be more than happy to check.
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Kain also would've been quite balanced in Mark of the Wolves if someone had spent a little more time on the neutered version of him that they let you play as. The only reason that he's not a balanced character that's acceptable for versus play is that no one checked him for infinites.
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Well, again, I don't see why people can't just ban Geese and Zero for "tournament play". Isn't the first time it's been done and certainly won't be the last. I realize this last comment is just my opinion, too, but if Kain and Grant were intended to be 100% balanced, they would have been selectable from the start and wouldn't require codes (I still use them anyway, though... :D) Nice to have a couple of constructive talks in a row and not have anybody ranting "it sucks!!".
Edit: Also, Orochiyashiro, you brought up a good point about discovering "counters"... this game has only been accessible for a short time now, it's entirely possible somebody will find counters for Zero (I'm willing to bet the Geese infinate will be more difficult to deal with...)
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[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Fri 29 Aug 11:15]
EddyT
185th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(10)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 12
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I think SNK/Playmore tried to give everyone a nice surprise by putting in so many secret characters, with us just discovering them within the week SvC was out. But it sorta backfired, like some people were saying, since some of the hidden guys have infinites.
Personally, I wish there weren't any infinites in SvC either, but unfortunately they're there and there's nothing anyone can do about it. There's always going to be some guy in the arcade who's gonna play you and kick you off using those infinites. Then, you're left with the choice of either waiting until he's done to play the game or try your hardest to figure out what characters and tactics would counter or prevent his infinites and/or overpowered, yet super-safe attacks. By then, you'll find out if you really love the game or not. Sometimes those types of guys can ruin it for others... but it's an unfortunate part of the arcade/online scene. Yeah, we'll get it at home eventually, but that's going to be a while.
I'm a big fan of CvS2, especially on XBox Live, but I've noticed a lot of people who play in major tournaments in the US have started to shy away from playing it on Live. One reason they have is because of lag, which is very understandable. Other people say that it's because there's no RCing and the changes in some grooves are the other reasons.
I kind of wish that Capcom or SNK-Playmore would just have revisions of their arcade fighters, that would fix major problems like infinites, roll-canceling, major collision problems, etc. I'm sure it would hurt their home console software sales a bit if they decide to tweak the same game at home, but not arcade. People will disregard the home games by saying it's not the real thing, and that it develops bad habits for people who want to play tournaments. They'll end up playing in the arcades only.
I'm far removed from being a tournament player, so I definitely play the games for fun. :) But at the same time, I'd love to play more people online... and I'd like the game to be as fair as possible.
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[this message was edited by EddyT on Fri 29 Aug 12:40]
emeraldazn
150th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(2)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Fri 29 Aug 13:33
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problem with ppl in general is they dont know their limit..they browse over the internet till they see some guy saying theres an infinite, and instantly the person goes to every forum he knows and raves how the game is broken,.. when they haven't even played the game.
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EddyT
185th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(3)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Fri 29 Aug 14:34
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problem with ppl in general is they dont know their limit..they browse over the internet till they see some guy saying theres an infinite, and instantly the person goes to every forum he knows and raves how the game is broken,.. when they haven't even played the game.
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I agree sometimes people react that way, even when they haven't even touched the game or at least seen it in action. I guess that's what makes online forums such a bad thing sometimes... some people use it to form their own opinions instead of finding out for themselves. They'll try to sound really smart about the subject, but are in reality just reiterating what more knowledgeable people have said.
I'm not directing this at anyone, BTW. Just agreeing with emeraldazn of what I have seen on some other forums... or even from people I've met personally in the past.
There are some qualms I've had about gameplay on my first try with SvC, but I understand that I've only touched the surface of the game and haven't really gotten to the gist of playing it regularly. I'm sure my opinion can change after playing it more. For instance, I'm wondering if it's possible to link a normal hit to a super... because I can only link normals with special moves for now.
I like Shiki a lot, and Chun Li definitely has more moves than her CvS2 rendition. I'm hoping to play Earthquake and Tabasa on my next trip out to the arcade.
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emeraldazn
152th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(4)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Fri 29 Aug 16
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For instance, I'm wondering if it's possible to link a normal hit to a super... because I can only link normals with special moves for now.
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Of course :) you can also cancel special moves, and finish it off with a super. Heres one of my favorites for Kim (he can cancel his upfwd+b now woohoo):
jump D, C, qcb+p, qcb+p, qcb+D, qcb+p, upfwd+b, qcbf+k (or EXCEED)
here..try these combos for chun li, basically all you need. she has one of the fastest jabs..i was able to get dwn b x6. just time it right cuz she still has her lighting kick.
dwn bx2~3, dwnfwd+b, dwn up+B, dp+D, jumpC+C or qcf x2 +P if in corner
dwn B x2~3, dwn fwd+B, qcfx2+K, jump C C (or qcfx2 +P or EXCEED if in corner)
C, dp+D, C or qcfx2+p
If you need help on canceling the dwnfwd+b into qcfx2+k, you can use this shortcut. after the 2 down b, rotate your joystick as if u are going to do a qcf motion, but hit the b button so u pull out a dwnfwd+b. then do one more qcf motion and u should execute the dm.
Her down D is very useful against jumping opponents. Her grab is awesome..dash in and grab. :) Also want to note, after you do her qcfx2+K and jump C C in the corner, the opponent tends to face the opposite direction once he lands, so what i would do is trying to continue a combo, or..use the grab move and do another dm combo.
if she has any worthy MAX combos (and this is what i wanted as i have said on my previous posts, not some Geese infinite) then great!..but these combos are definately all you really need.
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[this message was edited by emeraldazn on Fri 29 Aug 16:44]
Luisinan426th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(5)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Fri 29 Aug 17:58
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Not to restart any flaming, but why is everyone jumping on Tiamat for his avatar comment? I thought it was "ha ha funny but true" but also "ha ha true in a non-serious way" Get my drift? Generalizations are almost always wrong but I kinda agree with Tiamat's statement. History has proven it to be true and it's sensible. There are always exceptions to the rule and I don't think Tiamat was attacking anyone or being negative. He was just saying some fans are fanatical (or hardcore).
Anyway that was my 2cents-- I was gonna post this earlier in the thread.
Lastly, if people want to argue, all they got to say is: back up what you are saying with evidence and not just opinion. If people say SvC is crap because of the infinites, then their opinion is justified. If Zero and Geese are taken out from competitive play, then maybe SvC is no longer crap. Attacking the poster is not the way to go. Seeing things different is fine. In casual play almost the most broken games can be fun-- but not everyone is a casual player and the competitive players want balanced games so that matches don't de-evolve into fights between a small set of characters. It's just differences in what we seek in our games-- that's all.
Personally, I enjoy SvC as a casual game. But the infinites seriously hurt the game's lasting value. If the two characters are banned from competitive play then things might be okay. But banning characters rarely happens and is not that cool to begin with. Off the top of my head, the only character to be ever banned in a competitive play is ST Akuma.
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Bored? "160"
TiamatRoar460th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(6)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Fri 29 Aug 19:12
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Not to restart any flaming, but why is everyone jumping on Tiamat for his avatar comment? I thought it was "ha ha funny but true" but also "ha ha true in a non-serious way" Get my drift? Generalizations are almost always wrong but I kinda agree with Tiamat's statement. History has proven it to be true and it's sensible. There are always exceptions to the rule and I don't think Tiamat was attacking anyone or being negative. He was just saying some fans are fanatical (or hardcore).
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Honestly? I made that avatar comment partially because I wanted to see what replies it would get. However, only partially, since I DO believe it, too. I didn't just pull it out of my ass. It comes from experience of many years of internet message board surfing, to the point where my mind now screams "Approach with caution!" whenever I see certain names or avatars. And they don't just have to be SNK avatars. Though generally, any 'main character' av or name has leaned towards it in my experience. ...with the apparent exception of Iori, for reasons which I have no clue why, which is odd, since I've seen some VERY passionate Iori fans, for lack of a less offensive term. Passionate Iori fans that don't have Iori names or avs for some reason (maybe I just didn't run into some yet).
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http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
EddyT
187th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(5)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Fri 29 Aug 19
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For instance, I'm wondering if it's possible to link a normal hit to a super... because I can only link normals with special moves for now.
Of course :) you can also cancel special moves, and finish it off with a super. Heres one of my favorites for Kim (he can cancel his upfwd+b now woohoo):
jump D, C, qcb+p, qcb+p, qcb+D, qcb+p, upfwd+b, qcbf+k (or EXCEED)
here..try these combos for chun li, basically all you need. she has one of the fastest jabs..i was able to get dwn b x6. just time it right cuz she still has her lighting kick.
dwn bx2~3, dwnfwd+b, dwn up+B, dp+D, jumpC+C or qcf x2 +P if in corner
dwn B x2~3, dwn fwd+B, qcfx2+K, jump C C (or qcfx2 +P or EXCEED if in corner)
C, dp+D, C or qcfx2+p
If you need help on canceling the dwnfwd+b into qcfx2+k, you can use this shortcut. after the 2 down b, rotate your joystick as if u are going to do a qcf motion, but hit the b button so u pull out a dwnfwd+b. then do one more qcf motion and u should execute the dm.
Her down D is very useful against jumping opponents. Her grab is awesome..dash in and grab. :) Also want to note, after you do her qcfx2+K and jump C C in the corner, the opponent tends to face the opposite direction once he lands, so what i would do is trying to continue a combo, or..use the grab move and do another dm combo.
if she has any worthy MAX combos (and this is what i wanted as i have said on my previous posts, not some Geese infinite) then great!..but these combos are definately all you really need.
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I'll try the Chun Li combos next time I'm over at the arcade... thanks for the advice. :)
Reason why I was asking, is because when I was playing as Shiki, I had a hard time linking her super with some of her normals. For instance, crouching and hitting strong punch into super didn't work, but crouching strong punch into uppercut attack worked okay. It looked like a perfect link, but didn't work out that way. I guess I'll keep trying later. I'm not looking online for combos or anything, so everything is trial-and-error for me right now.
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[this message was edited by EddyT on Fri 29 Aug 19:15]
emeraldazn
152th Post
Regular Customer
"Shiki" , posted Fri 29 Aug 20:41
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Shiki is a different story :)
j D, C, f+A, qcb+k (Command throw will connect in any combo)
j D, C, f+B Bx3, dash Dp+C or air Dp+C
j D, C, f+A Ax3 (Cancel 4th hit of A combo), Exceed super
Here are some combos that require MAX mode
j D, C, f+A Ax3, qcf+A, qcb,hcf+C super (or EXCEED)
j D, C, f+A Ax3, qcf+A, qcf+B, air Dp+C or air qcf+D (Better use in the corner IMO for the last hit)
Her best tactic is to get her command throw connected against your opponent. Once your opponents controls are reversed you have a good chance of landing another combo or continue with your offensive. Shiki's Dp+C is her best anti-air alongside with c D. dwn b and C upclose are great to start up Shiki's combos but be careful since anything blocked can be guard dash canceled.
I repeat, abuse the command throw :)
Oh and I just noticed something interesting from Shiki, and this might work the same way with other characters that have a command throw. I was doing close C, f+A, qcb+B (command throw) and one of my opponents guard dash canceled my f+A but got caught with Shiki's qcb+B command throw. I think that command throws will counter GCFS (iori's, chun li's, etc).
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OYashiroForever458th Post
Gold Customer
"Too many damn "Re:"s" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22:03
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I kind of wish that Capcom or SNK-Playmore would just have revisions of their arcade fighters, that would fix major problems like infinites, roll-canceling, major collision problems, etc. I'm sure it would hurt their home console software sales a bit if they decide to tweak the same game at home, but not arcade. People will disregard the home games by saying it's not the real thing, and that it develops bad habits for people who want to play tournaments. They'll end up playing in the arcades only.
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Capcom's released multiple versions of the same game before (SF2:WW, Zero 3 -> Zero 3 Upper, 3S, I think SSF2:Tourney Edition didn't have Magic SPD). In the case of Zero 3 Upper, the game was totally ignored by the Japanese because a lot of the bugs (crouch-cancels, V-ism was raped, etc.) were fixed. If people have already invested a significant amount of time in to learning the ins and outs of a game (including the quirks like RCing, crouch-cancelling, etc.), they'll usually react strongly to fixes/revisions.
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"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
RugalBernstein4467th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(1):Too many damn" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22:06
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In the case of Zero 3 Upper, the game was totally ignored by the Japanese because a lot of the bugs (crouch-cancels, V-ism was raped, etc.) were fixed. If people have already invested a significant amount of time in to learning the ins and outs of a game (including the quirks like RCing, crouch-cancelling, etc.), they'll usually react strongly to fixes/revisions.
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Actually, I had heard differently... a large number of older Zero 3 boards were just replaced with the Zero 3 upper board, sometimes without even any indications of the swap taking place.
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Best site EVER: Link Here
OYashiroForever459th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(7)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22:08
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Lots of characters rush past guard cancel. Some examples include Shiki and Tabasa. And the main reason people want Zero and Geese banned is cuz of their infinites. Nevermind the fact that the game's been out for a month and most places just got it.
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Actually, Zero also has a ridiculous Marvel-esque trap that does more damage than most Exceeds and is currently very difficult to avoid. The easy infinite's just the icing on the cake.
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"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
OYashiroForever460th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(2):Too many damn" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22:15
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Actually, I had heard differently... a large number of older Zero 3 boards were just replaced with the Zero 3 upper board, sometimes without even any indications of the swap taking place.
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A lot of Zero 3 boards were replaced with Upper (Naomi) discs, but everyone noticed. It would be very difficult for anyone to mistake Zero 3 for Zero 3 Upper what with the console-exclusive characters being usable and V-ism being neutered. I've heard from multiple people (plus seen with my own eyes at Sunnyvale Golfland in CA) that Zero 3 Upper machines gather cobwebs while traditional Z3/A3 machines still get pretty good comp.
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"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
RugalBernstein4469th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(3):Too many damn" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22
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I was talking about in Japan, not the U.S. They had just taken the CPS boards out of some cabs and put Naomi boards in. Obviously it's difficult to confuse the two, but I hadn't gotten the impression many people cared one way or the other. Not to insult the "better gamers", either, but I think it's pretty silly to get offended when a company would fix a game's problems.. Bottom line, if a company is willing to go back and take something out of the game, it was probably never intended to be there; if people aren't willing or capable of dealing with that, it just shows they really aren't willing to adapt to the situation. I realize my views don't necessarily square with yours, but I don't think being able to abuse bugs in the game makes you a good player; if anything, I find it to be quite the opposite. In my opinion, I think a truly good player should be able to play and win without having to whip out bugs and flaws in the game, but I don't expect others to adhere to my views. ^_^
Edit: Of course, one expects to encounter this kind of thing in the arcade from time to time, and all one can do is give it your all and possibly learn from it. Truthfully, though, the "fighting game fanatic" is a fire gone out of this world; I haven't fought anybody who I would consider "amazingly good" for a long time outside of Japan.
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Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Fri 29 Aug 22:32]
justicekyo607th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"Re(3):Too many damn" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22:28
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Actually, I had heard differently... a large number of older Zero 3 boards were just replaced with the Zero 3 upper board, sometimes without even any indications of the swap taking place.
A lot of Zero 3 boards were replaced with Upper (Naomi) discs, but everyone noticed. It would be very difficult for anyone to mistake Zero 3 for Zero 3 Upper what with the console-exclusive characters being usable and V-ism being neutered. I've heard from multiple people (plus seen with my own eyes at Sunnyvale Golfland in CA) that Zero 3 Upper machines gather cobwebs while traditional Z3/A3 machines still get pretty good comp.
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Zero 3 Upper was pretty bad. It's based off of the DC version, but not as good as the DC version.
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TiamatRoar461th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(4):Too many damn" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22:31
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Since Upper was only released in Japan and not many arcade operators import Japan-only arcade cabinets to my knowledge, I think OYash is talking about Japan, too. Only place I heard of importing SFA3 Upper was... CFTF, I think. Been a while since I heard about that game. ...been a while since I heard about that game because no one seems to like it or play it. OYash's report matches everything I've heard about it, though (IE, the Japanese swearing off the game like it was the plague. Though I think a big reason for that might be because they made Shin Akuma and Final Bison playable). I imagine Shin Akuma and Final Bison would be banned from tournaments, except the Japanese apparently hated the game so much anyways that there were never any tournaments for it in the first place.
I haven't been to Japan to check it out, myself, though. Well, it definately isn't popular in the US, at least, which is why people still discuss V-Ism combos that only work in non-upper heavily, but that's to be expected, since the game never was released in the US (besides the console-only dreamcast SFA3 that Upper is generally a port of, to my knowledge).
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http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
Rugalbernstein4470th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(5):Too many damn" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22
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Yashiro specifically mentions Sunnyvale Golf, which to my knowledge isn't in Japan. I'm just going to leave this thread, I think about five people here are out for my guts now. The primary reason I posted the Upper thing was to state my opinion on that sort of editing, anyway.
Edit: Sloppy.
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Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by Rugalbernstein on Fri 29 Aug 22:37]
VManOfMana
205th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(8)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22
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While SNK vs. Capcom obviously has some balance issues, I think this dispute comes down to one major factor: " Capcom vs. SNK 2 revenge". We're seeing a repeat of all the SNK freaks bitching about Capcom vs. SNK 2's supposedly "raped" SNK charas. In this case, Capcom freaks are latching on to whatever bad thing that comes up in the game and are going to hammer it until the cows come home. It's the circle of life!
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I guess this is also related to the previous comment about what you told me for being just an ass (which by the way, you were, only that I am immune to company-specific taunts because of a little detail).
Little detail which you forgot to consider: I am Mexican. I grew up in Mexico. I grew up in SNK territory. I played SNK games for years, despite Chun Li being always my #1 character since SF2. In other words, I have played both companies' games a good deal like to be biased towards one's company (I play SvC more than MvC2 and as much as CvS2 lately). And if you can read my previous posts again, you can find out that I haven't said a single word about Chun Li (or any Capcom charater) being shafted. I complained about gameplay elements: hit detection, universal moves with way too high benefit/cost ratio, easy infinites, unbalanced characters (no matter who they are and what side they are on) and boring games due to turtling product of the previous problems.
But if you really want me to complain, here it goes: when they hit, HouyokuvSen and Kikoshou sound like a typewriter and popcorn, respectively. Now the question is, do I think this is important enough like to care and actually whine? (Hint: starts with "n" and ends with "o").
(Yeah: I know this looks OT now, but its impressive how a thread can change in an afternoon - just wanted to speak out).
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Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Fri 29 Aug 22:47]
Rugalbernstein4470th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(9)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Fri 29 Aug 22:40
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I guess this is also related to the previous comment about what you told me for being just an ass (which by the way, you were, only that I am immune to company-specific taunts because of a little detail).
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I believe both of the things I said, actually; and if you were actually "immune", you wouldn't have bothered to either reply to the original comment defending your abilities with Chunners OR the other comment. There, NOW I'm done.
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Phoenix
33th Post
Rare Customer
"Re(8)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Sat 30 Aug 00:03
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Lots of characters rush past guard cancel. Some examples include Shiki and Tabasa. And the main reason people want Zero and Geese banned is cuz of their infinites. Nevermind the fact that the game's been out for a month and most places just got it.
Actually, Zero also has a ridiculous Marvel-esque trap that does more damage than most Exceeds and is currently very difficult to avoid. The easy infinite's just the icing on the cake.
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More reasons to ban Zero. From what I'm hearing Zero is even more broken than Geese. I think SNK just wanted to make sure that fan favorites like Zero and Geese were extremely powerful and overdid it. =D
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"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
UnCauzi
86th Post
Occasional Customer
"Re(2)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Sat 30 Aug 00:07
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add storm, magneto, sentinel, and any other broken character u can think of to that list.
BTW, EmeraldZN... didn't you say something about an SS 2 tournament a long time ago, and needing more hardware?
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That was me, tournament is still going on too. And I could use all the help I can get. Right now it looks like a kof98, SS2, Garou side for the SNK part of the tournament.
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DKW
240th Post
Frequent Customer
"Little mini-review thing" , posted Sat 30 Aug 00:58
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Graphics: I'm sorry, all you SNK super-diehards, but until there's some kind of hardware upgrade, this issue is not going away. I'm baffled as to why you're so hellbent on discrediting "eye candy" and "style over substance" or whatever. Ever since the days of monochrome paddle games, video game technology has been constantly marching forward. Simply put, the new supplants the old. Why you people constantly rationalize whatever-SNK-is-called-now not adapting and changing like every other video game company is beyond me.
Anyway, the animation's pretty nice, and some of the effects, like Dan's "power up spark" are pretty cool. But the graphics are very noticably grainy, and the color palette isn't too hot either. This may not be a problem for a 16-bit system, but this game is expected to compete with other arcade fighting games, and this is not a good sign.
Characters: I agree with everyone who says that there are just too many Ryus and Ryu-oids in there. (Also, the SF2 gang is getting seriously overrepresented in these crossovers...for crying out loud, give Third Strike and Alpha folks a shot!) Still, this was probably unavoidable, given the limitations of the hardware and the need for characters that, well, fighting gamers would actually pick. (For all the grumbling about how "boring" Ryu is, has that stopped even ONE player from taking him?) Formerly-SNK did the best with what they had...I can live with that.
Gameplay: Slow? For whom, Sonic the Hedgehog? The pace sure looks pretty brisk to me, and more than a few rookies have had trouble just keeping up. Balance seems to be all right (nobody's actually mastered the infinites yet); there are favorites, of course, but I haven't seen any one character dominate. I don't mind the lack of tons of modes and styles at all; there's nothing wrong with KISS.
The dialogue: Why don't these people ever remember a single thing that happened in the past? Particularly all the previous times they've fought? Y'know? This is really starting to creep me out. Interesting diversion otherwise.
Overall, there's nothing groundshaking about this game, but it's a fun diversion and a refreshing change from all the KOF and Guilty Gear challengemanias. It's not really all that popular at my arcade right now, though, and I don't think it'll ever be. It looks like niche game is the best CvS can hope for.
Will find out more after Saturday.
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homepage - http://home.hawaii.rr.com/dkwff
VManOfMana
207th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(10)Re(10):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" , posted Sat 30 Aug 01
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I guess this is also related to the previous comment about what you told me for being just an ass (which by the way, you were, only that I am immune to company-specific taunts because of a little detail).
I believe both of the things I said, actually; and if you were actually "immune", you wouldn't have bothered to either reply to the original comment defending your abilities with Chunners OR the other comment. There, NOW I'm done.
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By immunity I meant that the taunt does not apply to me, not that it ticks me off, because I got to say that being called a fanboy in a SNK/Capcom war is something that REALLY ticks me off.
Just to clarify things.
And you still fail to address the main points of my posts: why the game is a bad one. I was trying to put arguments in an objective matter, but then this went thru the "Capcom fanboys whine about SNK games" route.
So trying to go back to a gaming-oriented route:
The reason why banning Geese and Zero is not a viable one is because of the fact that they are not non-selectable-without-code final bosses. Banning Shin Gouki, Shin Mr. Karate and Athena (if they are selectable with a code) would be a reasonable thing, same thing with Shin Gouki and Shin Akuma in CvS2 (which in a way they are "banned" because they are not arcade-selectable). Under this reasoning, banning Gouki and not Vega (psycho) from Super Turbo also sounds reasonable (Gouki is a secret boss while Vega is selectable without code). Banning Geese and Zero would be like asking Geese and Vega (psycho) to be banned because they are mid-bosses in CvS2.
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Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Sat 30 Aug 01:08]
emeraldazn
154th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(1):Little mini-review thing" , posted Sat 30 Aug 01
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The dialogue: Why don't these people ever remember a single thing that happened in the past? Particularly all the previous times they've fought? Y'know? This is really starting to creep me out. Interesting diversion otherwise.
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have no clue what u are talking about..but im guessing u think tat none of the chars know each other or something... try geese and terry.
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[this message was edited by emeraldazn on Sat 30 Aug 01:10]
Iggy1516th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
"Re(3)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Sat 30 Aug 03
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problem with ppl in general is they dont know their limit..they browse over the internet till they see some guy saying theres an infinite, and instantly the person goes to every forum he knows and raves how the game is broken,.. when they haven't even played the game.
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Speaking of forums...
In a forum dedicaced to Zero, they were saying that people that think Zero is broken didn't actually played him and don't know how hard it is to use elves properly. I don't have any opinion about it, since I didn't played the game myself, but it only made me more eager to play the game.
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"Aïeuuh!!" - Marie Trintignant
[this message was edited by Iggy on Sat 30 Aug 03:57]
YeldellGW342th Post
Bronze Customer
"Re(4)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Sat 30 Aug 07:50
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Funny, I recall every fighter I've played having horrible hit detection from time to time.
Maybe I suck or the it's just the cpu robbing me of hits that should connect as usual.
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emeraldazn
155th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(5)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Sat 30 Aug 08
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Funny, I recall every fighter I've played having horrible hit detection from time to time.
Maybe I suck or the it's just the cpu robbing me of hits that should connect as usual.
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true, its not a new thing in the fighting game genre. u have to be careful about your distance when hitting that button in svc.
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[this message was edited by emeraldazn on Sat 30 Aug 08:02]
Time Mage1603th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
"Rugal and VMan. Please. Behave." , posted Sat 30 Aug 09:10
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Rugal, VMan, I think you are both very reasonable people, so... Why are you arguing like kids?
I'm specially surprised about you, Rugal. You are not a fanboy by any means, and never acted like one until this thread. If you are bothered about people complaining about the game, it's OK, but I was very surprised about the fanboy call you did to VMan. It was unexpected and unnapropiate, specially when he did not said a single thing about ChunLi nor Capcom being raped nor anything like that. His complains may be fair or not, but he did't look insulting or flaming.
I don't want to sound like a father, teacher, moderator or whatever figure has the authority to reprehend, but, seriously, this is NOT what I expected.
Also, VMan, Roll Cancelling, Kara-whatever and things like that ARE bugs, even if they are difficult to do ones. So, in my opinion, they should dissapear, and that's what happened in the EO versions, so it looks like Capcom thinks they're bugs, too.
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DarkZero
240th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(4)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Sat 30 Aug 10:07
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Speaking of forums...
In a forum dedicaced to Zero, they were saying that people that think Zero is broken didn't actually played him and don't know how hard it is to use elves properly. I don't have any opinion about it, since I didn't played the game myself, but it only made me more eager to play the game.
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Difficulty is pretty much irrelevant in the discussion of infinites. Among mid-level players (most of us, probably), infinites are no different than priority, i.e. they depend on the statement "all else being equal". Assuming equal skill level, equal knowledge of one another's strategies, equal proficiency with the game's systems, etc., the mid-level player using Zero or Geese has an unfair advantage over another mid-level player using a different character. Even if they can only pull off the infinite for a little while, say 30% or 50% of the opponent's total health, they still have an advantage that the other player, who is forced to use just standard combos and supers, does not. In high level play, difficulty still doesn't matter, because if you're good enough to be considered "high level", then you can certainly pull off a simple infinite like Geese's or Zero's.
The same logic applies to the mine trap. It can do substantial, unique damage, and only one character can do it. That, too, is an unfair advantage.
I think the real problem, though, is that people regard infinites as if we should just stop playing the game because there are infinites. In practice, infinites are hard to pull off and can usually only be sustained for a short period of time. In my opinion, infinites aren't much different than priority or slightly over-powered supers: they're just one more small thing that makes a character stronger. It doesn't make a character a god, it just makes them a bit stronger.
Geese sounds like a real monster, though. He can auto-counter (I know there's a bit of lingo for this, but I just can't remember it) melee supers like the Buster Wolf, he has an infinite, he has the Raging Storm, and, according to several different people in the strategy area of SRK.com, he actually has a combo that contains the Deadly Rave, the Raging Storm, and a bunch of different normal and special moves inbetween. Why an infinite is considered worse than a combo like that is beyond me, because it sounds really easy except for the Raging Storm.
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Grave629th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"why yes, curry rice for lunch would be great" , posted Sat 30 Aug 10:31
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Also, VMan, Roll Cancelling, Kara-whatever and things like that ARE bugs, even if they are difficult to do ones. So, in my opinion, they should dissapear, and that's what happened in the EO versions, so it looks like Capcom thinks they're bugs, too.
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Right on. I just grabbed my own copy of CvS2EO for Xbox yesterday, because I'm leaving for college in a few hours, and I won't be able to play my friend's copy anymore, heh heh.
The problem with the RC thing is that people started basing their game around it, and the same people playing it declare that it's so broken because of how powerful it is, but when RCs are taken out, they have no interest in the game anymore. I don't really get it... Maybe if people's strategies didn't hinge on Roll Cancels they could try to enjoy the game. If a glitch is essential for "high-level play" and when it's removed people don't want to play the game... I think the players, not the game, are to blame.
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according to several different people in the strategy area of SRK.com, he actually has a combo that contains the Deadly Rave, the Raging Storm, and a bunch of different normal and special moves inbetween.
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Scary!
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OYashiroForever461th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(1):Rugal and VMan. Please. Behave." , posted Sat 30 Aug 10:42
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Rugal, VMan, I think you are both very reasonable people, so... Why are you arguing like kids?
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Personally, I thought they were being fairly reasonable. Rugal, from my personal experience, always goes out of his way to avoid conflict/flaming. While this whole thread could've degenerated in to flaming, I think it's stayed fairly on-topic and has been, for the most part, civil. No need to break up fights where there aren't any.
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Also, VMan, Roll Cancelling, Kara-whatever and things like that ARE bugs, even if they are difficult to do ones. So, in my opinion, they should dissapear, and that's what happened in the EO versions, so it looks like Capcom thinks they're bugs, too.
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They are bugs. However, when you fix a game a year (sometimes even 2 or 3) after its release, people who've invested a significant amount of time in to learning how to win at the ORIGINAL game tend to ignore the "upgrade". Should they? Tough to say. In the case of CvS2, Capcom didn't upgrade the arcade version so tournament players never really had to deal with the EO differences. In the case of Zero 3 Upper and GGXX#, those games were even more bug-riddled than the original games.
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"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
Phoenix
35th Post
Rare Customer
"But I wanted dim sum for dinner." , posted Sat 30 Aug 10:51
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We keep revolving around Zero and Geese over and over again. Just ban them already. ST Akuma anyone? Afterall, what other game had 8 midbosses? And we can't ban Athena, Firebrand, Shin Gouki, Serious Mr. Karate cuz they aren't even selectable.
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"My only enemy is myself...and my ex-girlfriend and..."
Grave631th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
"YOU'LL EAT WHAT'S ON YOUR PLATE, YOUNG MAN." , posted Sat 30 Aug 10:56
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We keep revolving around Zero and Geese over and over again. Just ban them already. ST Akuma anyone? Afterall, what other game had 8 midbosses? And we can't ban Athena, Firebrand, Shin Gouki, Serious Mr. Karate cuz they aren't even selectable.
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Yeah, the list of bosses is pretty insane. I know the Zero/Geese issue is far from dead, but this thread is getting really tired... wheeeee.
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emeraldazn
156th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(5)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Sat 30 Aug 10
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Geese sounds like a real monster, though. He can auto-counter (I know there's a bit of lingo for this, but I just can't remember it) melee supers like the Buster Wolf, he has an infinite, he has the Raging Storm, and, according to several different people in the strategy area of SRK.com, he actually has a combo that contains the Deadly Rave, the Raging Storm, and a bunch of different normal and special moves inbetween. Why an infinite is considered worse than a combo like that is beyond me, because it sounds really easy except for the Raging Storm.
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For auto counters you just throw them. Raging Storm is something to be careful of tho, its a 100% pure anti air killer. Chun li can link special moves together as well.. dwn up x b and DP+D. so funny how everyone is saying Geese and Zero are top-tier just cuz of their infinite. and the last thing u are talking about is called a max combo, just to let u know.
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[this message was edited by emeraldazn on Sat 30 Aug 10:59]
OYashiroForever462th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(4):Too many damn" , posted Sat 30 Aug 11:01
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I was talking about in Japan, not the U.S.
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So was I. The Golfland franchise in CA/AZ tend to get a lot of imports, though, so I was just using them as a personal example. When I went to Cali a couple of years back, I went to Sunnyvale GL on a Sat. night and played some great players. While I was there, I noticed the Z3U machine was empty the entire time while the Alpha 3 machine had pretty consistent comp. However, for the most part, I was referring to Japan... every person I've talked to has pretty much synched up with that: Upper gets no play while Z3 still has a significant scene (a lot of places still even hold tourneys for it).
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Not to insult the "better gamers", either, but I think it's pretty silly to get offended when a company would fix a game's problems.. Bottom line, if a company is willing to go back and take something out of the game, it was probably never intended to be there; if people aren't willing or capable of dealing with that, it just shows they really aren't willing to adapt to the situation. I realize my views don't necessarily square with yours, but I don't think being able to abuse bugs in the game makes you a good player; if anything, I find it to be quite the opposite. In my opinion, I think a truly good player should be able to play and win without having to whip out bugs and flaws in the game, but I don't expect others to adhere to my views. ^_^
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And, of course, no one should chastise you for your views either since they're not unreasonable. However, I do respectfully disagree because I think a truly good player learns EVERYTHING about a game and then uses whatever is necessary to win. A "truly" good player can win without using bugs/infinites/etc., but he/she will be even better if they know the bugs/infinites, know how to bait people in to falling in to them, and know how to avoid them. Refusing to learn things simply because they originally weren't intended to be in the game (like 2-in-1s in SF2:WW or Cable's AHVBx3) puts you at a disadvantage if you're playing the game to win.
Obviously, when you're playing with your friends or trying to initiate a new member in to the fold, you don't pull out all the stops and play for blood, but that doesn't mean there isn't a time and place for that style of ruthless play (read: when money's on the line).
quote Of course, one expects to encounter this kind of thing in the arcade from time to time, and all one can do is give it your all and possibly learn from it. Truthfully, though, the "fighting game fanatic" is a fire gone out of this world; I haven't fought anybody who I would consider "amazingly good" for a long time outside of Japan.
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Japan still has a THRIVING competitive scene and in the US, while the arcade scene is on its last leg, there are significantly more people out there playing the high-level game now than there were 2 years ago. Hell, over 600 people attended Evolution 2k3 three weeks ago, including a few dozen international players. If you're interested in playing people who are genuinely good, I can give you arcades and people's home addresses. ^_^
BTW... I can't speak for anyone here but myself, but you know full well (or at least I assume you do) that I don't have it out for you, Rugal. Sure, we drag out this conversation once every couple of months (particularly since so many new games have come out of late), but I'm not pissed off or bitter. I'm not even trying to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong. Just trying to engage in friendly debate.
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"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
OYashiroForever463th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(6)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Sat 30 Aug 11:13
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For auto counters you just throw them. Raging Storm is something to be careful of tho, its a 100% pure anti air killer. Chun li can link special moves together as well.. dwn up x b and DP+D. so funny how everyone is saying Geese and Zero are top-tier just cuz of their infinite. and the last thing u are talking about is called a max combo, just to let u know.
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Geese and Zero would be powerful even without easy-to-perform, mid-screen infinites. As already mentioned, Geese does good damage and has powerful MAX combos and Zero can completely control the ground with his mine trap (you can't even Guard Step cancel out of it), making his infinite very easy to setup. Certainly, you could argue for other characters being top-tier (O. Iori and Violent Ken are both ridiculously fast/powerful, Demitri can fireball/dp trap like there's no tomorrow, and Goenitz, while toned down, can still be an incredible nuisance with well-placed tornados and command throws. For the non-hidden characters, Iori, Chun, and Terry have all proven to be fast and powerful. However, at this stage of the game (which could, of course, change if new things are discovered), Geese and Zero have obvious advantages that other characters simply can't compete with.
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"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
DarkZero
241th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(6)Re(10)Snk vs Cap = Crap?" , posted Sat 30 Aug 11:36
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For auto counters you just throw them. Raging Storm is something to be careful of tho, its a 100% pure anti air killer. Chun li can link special moves together as well.. dwn up x b and DP+D. so funny how everyone is saying Geese and Zero are top-tier just cuz of their infinite. and the last thing u are talking about is called a max combo, just to let u know.
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Damn, that's right... Deadly Rave is an Exceed, not a super, so you can only use Deadly Rave and Raging Storm in the same combo while in MAX Mode. For some reason I thought Deadly Rave was a super and not an exceed.
And yes, the auto counter is nothing more than a throw, but inflicting damage with an auto counter is certainly preferable to taking block damage. Just one more of those little things in Geese's favor that I was talking about.
Also, I actually have a question (something sort of new for this thread!). For those that have used Zero, if anyone: Can you perform combos on a Mettool opponent? In the Zero vs. Earthquake vid, Zero turned Earthquake into a Mettool and then attacked him, but it seemed like sort of a waste since Earthquake popped back into existence already blocking and Zero wasn't able to get a combo off. Is the Mettool transformation elf only useful for singular attacks like Zero's slide super or cyber elf exceed, or did the guy in the Zero video just screw up his combo?
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VManOfMana
208th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(1):Rugal and VMan. Please. Behave." , posted Sat 30 Aug 15
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Also, VMan, Roll Cancelling, Kara-whatever and things like that ARE bugs, even if they are difficult to do ones. So, in my opinion, they should dissapear, and that's what happened in the EO versions, so it looks like Capcom thinks they're bugs, too.
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In their essence, roll cancelling, guard cancelling, kara cancelling and the other-kind-of-cancelling-whose other-Japanese-name-I-don't remember are not bugs, but a necessary thing which was later exploited and transormed into a "necessary evil".
The essence of all these cancelling techniques is to use the game's threshold for detecting moves into one's advantage, since we humans cannot be 100% perfect when making a motion. This threshold is about two or three frames long, but with enough practice they can be used with other puproses.
Kara cancelling is cancelling a normal move into a command move withing the error frame. The most obvious example of this is when you play SF2, you can sometimes hear the sound of a fierce punch while doing a Hadoken. I recently was in Chihuahua (Mexico) where they have CE and about 1 out of 3 Hadokens had this effect.
The other cancelling whose name I don't remember is the ability to cancel a normal move into another one. Think of it like chaining, only that in most "old school" games these chains are no longer than two or three hits. Typical examples are jabs cancelling each other, Ken's strong > fierce in Third Strike, Ryu and Ken's short > roundhouse in SF2, etc. So, the unnamed cancelling is just a way to make combos happen, so how is it relevant to this? Well, it can be a powerful weapon combined with kara cancel, which can translate into creating new combos. Normally in SF2, jabs don't combo into hadokens, but if you unnamed cancel the jab with roundhouse, and kara cancel the roundhouse with the hadoken, you can combo them.
Crouch cancelling is just applying "trip-guard" in an offensive way. In SF2, you had no way to block a sweep as you land on a jump, so to help things out, it was later implemented that you could cancel your landing recovery given that you are not in an attacking position. Crouch cancelling is just doing trip-guard so that you cancel your landing recovery so your next attack can go out faster. I would blame crouch cancel infinites to A3's juggle system, not crouch cancelling itself.
Going back to kara-cancellig...
Kara cancelling is often used to increase the range of a move. Third Strike's kara throws is the most known example. Kara throws is just a kara cancel where instead of cancelling into say, a Hadoken or Shoryuken, you cancel into a grab, which is a command move since you need to input two buttons at the same time. Ken can give a lot of extra range to his moves in CvS2 by kara-cancelling his standing roundhouse. The thing is that if you kara cancel a move that makes your character go forward you will get extra range. It is impossible for the game to predict when a kara cancel was voluntary or not. Of course an algorithm to cancel the effect of moves going forward could be implemented, but who knows if it can be implemented such that any correction can be precise enough and to be done within a frame.
Roll cancelling is just another form of Kara cancel. By itself roll cancelling is not a glitch (you can roll cancel in the XBox version as well); the glitch is the fact that the roll's invincibility is passed to the command move. So what the XBox version fixed is not roll cancelling, is the invincibility issue.
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The problem with the RC thing is that people started basing their game around it, and the same people playing it declare that it's so broken because of how powerful it is, but when RCs are taken out, they have no interest in the game anymore. I don't really get it... Maybe if people's strategies didn't hinge on Roll Cancels they could try to enjoy the game. If a glitch is essential for "high-level play" and when it's removed people don't want to play the game... I think the players, not the game, are to blame.
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I think both sides (company and players) are at fault. Ideally, the company should be able to apply "fixes" to major problems before they become so "natural" to the game so that players will whine when it is removed. The XBox version came out about 2 years after CvS2 came out, and A3 Upper came out after the regular A3's mechanics were considered natural to the game. Of course, if you ask me, the ideal solution would be to contract the top players in Japan to do the game testing and let them find as much glitches as possible so that they can be fixed. For a month at least. If this were the case things like AHVB and Geese and Zero in SvC would not be what they are today. I know that BAS was a CvS2 tester (he is on the credits), but who knows how deep the testing was. Anyways, RC was discovered way after a month. So to covers things like these, ideally there should also be a way to add patches to the game (maybe an additional read only unit?)
Note that I am not defending Roll Cancel in CvS2. I myself hate Roll Cancelling and although I have to face it all the time, I have decided to not use it even though I know that will translate into harder work (besides the fact that I don't have the execution). And I got to say that if it were by me I would be playing the XBox version in the arcade, since I am all for playing without the RC invincibility glitch, playing with Blanka/Sagat being toned down damage wise, and have P-Groove beefed up (initially I was going to use it, but parry got a very low benefit/risk ratio and having the slowest building, less powerful lv 3 supers doesn't help either).
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Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
[this message was edited by VManOfMana on Sat 30 Aug 16:48]
Time Mage1604th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
"RC, Kara, and etc." , posted Sun 31 Aug 05:34
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I know perfectly the bases of kara cancelling and roll cancelling, but anyway, thanks for explaining it, other people might not know it.
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Roll cancelling is just another form of Kara cancel. By itself roll cancelling is not a glitch (you can roll cancel in the XBox version as well); the glitch is the fact that the roll's invincibility is passed to the command move. So what the XBox version fixed is not roll cancelling, is the invincibility issue.
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When I saif RC and Kara were glitches, I was not being specific. What is a glitch in RC is adding the inv. frames of the roll to the move, and in the EO versions they just removed it and left the cancelling itself. Something like that could be done with the range-extending karas, as you pointed out, leaving the ability to cancel, but negating the additional range. In fact, I think that those windows of "universal cancelling" are a great idea of Capcom, in order to ease the execution of the moves, but they should have given a solution to the secondary effects of that.
I also agree in the fact that bugfixes should be faster, because if not, players tend to exploit and accostume to them. The "bugfixing expansion slot" is a great idea, you should send it to Capcom and SNK! ^_^
I read (I think it was in srk) that BAS didn't reported all his discoveries in the beta testing, just to keep an ace in his sleeve in tournaments. I don't know if this is true, but it shows a possibility that may occur if you leave the beta test to the best players in Japan: They could become even better. Also, beta testing periods should be longer than one week or two, that's for sure.
Oh! One last thing! I supposed you didn't used RC. Usually, the people who come here likes to enjoy a game, not being professionals of that game. I myself have medium-little ability, but in GGXX, I can do Slayer's grab infinite without a problem, although I don't use it. I usually grab twice or thrice (sp?), and then combo. I think it's unfunny to extend it more. Even when the infinite would be the solution to win an uphill match, I don't use it. I suppose that using infinites/exploiting bugs etc. are a matter of each one's personality.
I think the structure of the post isn't the best, but I was writing as things came to my mind, sorry ^_^
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emeraldazn
156th Post
Regular Customer
"chun li ownage" , posted Sun 31 Aug 15:20
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http://210.224.163.11/bnf_svc_gam2.lzh
Lets not concentrate on Tabasa in this vid, just chun li :) Here you can see her combo i mentioned in my previous post. b,b, dwnfwd b, dwnup+b, dp+D, but she used fb a version instead. The player also made a simple MAX combo, C, f+b, fb a version into dm. Command grab is great as ever. Hope this match helps you play better vman and eddyt
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VManOfMana
209th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(1):chun li ownage" , posted Sun 31 Aug 19:48
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http://210.224.163.11/bnf_svc_gam2.lzh
Lets not concentrate on Tabasa in this vid, just chun li :) Here you can see her combo i mentioned in my previous post. b,b, dwnfwd b, dwnup+b, dp+D, but she used fb a version instead. The player also made a simple MAX combo, C, f+b, fb a version into dm. Command grab is great as ever. Hope this match helps you play better vman and eddyt
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It sure will help. Right now I rely mostly on close C or D > HouyokuSen to punish most whiffs or after a guard cancel. Now I got a way to deal a super's worth damage with greater range and without using supers.
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Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
Ultima321th Post
Bronze Customer
"Re(2):stuff" , posted Mon 1 Sep 02:05
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VManOfMana:
Minor correction: Jabs do combo into Hadouken in SF2. At least the close ones.
Also, your description for Crouch Cancelling isn't quite correct. It has nothing to do with trip guard. SFA3's juggle system states that your opponent cannot air recover (flip) until your character has returned to neutral state. Crouch Cancelling gets around this by cancelling your landing animation into a crouch, then cancelling that into a jump. Thus, you never enter a neutral state, so your opponent can't flip.
Trip guard is just going from your landing recovery straight into a crouch-block. It's not like you couldn't cancel it with other things in the past (DPs in Sf2, anyone?).
I dunno what unnamed cancelling your talking about, but there's also Kabotti cancels in A3 - cancelling air moves directly into CC activation. Same principle as Kara-cancelling.
Roll-Cancelling was in CvS1, but it didn't make moves invincible like CvS2's own do.
re: beta-testing
A beta test of even a month doesn't guarantee you'll find everything that's broken in a game. Crouch-cancel infinites in SFA3 weren't discovered until, what, 15 months after the game had been out?
Also, CvS2 was beta-tested for a month (two if you count the US beta testing), and look how that turned out.
re: banning
Tournament players are reluctant to ban things as a whole because no one wants to be seen as a scrub. "Banning" is associated with "we can't find a way around this, so let's ban it!"", which is typical scrub mentality (e.g. throws in the old days). It's gotten to the point that unless something is so "obviously" broken (e.g. Gambit glitch, reset/freeze glitches), most high level players are reluctant to ban something even if they secretly would like to.
In addition, no matter how bad a character may seem, there's always hope that a counter can be found. Sometimes it works - Cable in MvC2 was considered extremely broken once upon a time (and at the beginner/intermediate level, he still is). BUt people found a way past him eventually. Sometimes it doesn't - people never found a way around Akuma and Ibuki in 2I.
Another problem with banning stuff that's seen as "too good" is that sometimes there's stuff just underneathe that's "almost too good" that now becomes "too good" as a consequence. This is why banning the top tier characters is a lot of games usually doesn't make sense, because then you'll just have a new crop of top tier to deal with. Ban Ibuki and Akuma from 2I, and you'll still have to deal with Sean Y/Y. Ban Storm/Sentinel/Magneto/Cable from MvC2, and you'll have nothing but Ironman infinites all day. So not banning is kinda of a case of "The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know".
What no one has tried to do (probably because no one has any real authority to do so) is to set some kind of statute of limitations. How long can a tactic dominate before it's worthy of being banned? I remember some clown claiming that "we'll find a way around Sagat and Blanka!" up to a year after the game was out, with no real counter in sight (instead they just got better). What rubbish.
For competitive play, I think it's a little early to say Geese and Zero must be banned, but it certainly looks like it's heading in that direction if people want the game to be competitive. On the other hand, this assumes that high level players want the game to be competitive, which isn't something I'm sure of.
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--
Ultima - The Right arm of Scrub Voltron
http://uramble.com/index.html - U's Rambling Page
Luisinan430th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(3):stuff" , posted Mon 1 Sep 02:55
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I totally agree with Ultima on this. He brings up some good arguments that I hadn't heard before.
Now, the problem with Zero and Geese, in my mind, are many. Here is a list:
1. They have infinites.
2. No one else has easy infinites.
3. Their infinites are easy to produce.
4. Their infinites are available at any moment.
5. They are secret characters.
You see, it wouldn't be so bad if Z/G had infinites if everyone else had infinites or just super high damaging combos. Cause then the playing field would be a bit more even. But that's not the case.
Second strike is that their infinites are easy to produce and are reproduceable at any moment. It's not like they need a super meter to do their infinites. Or they need to have a very hard and difficult setup to produce the infinites. The infinites are too dang easy to make and available any durn time.
Lastly, they are secret characters. Secret characters have a certain 'stigma' cause they usually have distinct advantages over default characters. It doesn't matter if secret characters also have extra weaknesses.
So, what I'm trying to say is that poor PlaymoreSNK really messed up this game. Either people will ban Z/G and try to salvage this game for competitive play. Or players will just say screw it and move on. I can't predict what the consensus will be but I think those are really the only two possibilities for the future of this game. Z/G, in my mind are just too good with their simple advantages. Make one mistake and it's over. That sucks man.
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Bored? "160"
VManOfMana
210th Post
Frequent Customer
"Re(3):stuff" , posted Mon 1 Sep 08:31
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Ultima: thanks for the crouch cancelling correction.
I saw the name of the other cancelling just once as a Japanese player (I *think* it was Kuni) explained some things about Super Turbo, so it is kind of hard to remember the name. It's not a Katobbi cancel, though.
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Jabel D. Morales - VMan of Mana.
http://vman.animecafe.net/
"Tameraeba makeyo!"
emeraldazn
158th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(4):stuff" , posted Mon 1 Sep 09:39
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great post ultima. u know if playmore had included the mid boss characters during the beta testing there would be a lot less whiners in this world but hey u gotta live with it.
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TiamatRoar463th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(5):stuff" , posted Mon 1 Sep 18:11
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great post ultima. u know if playmore had included the mid boss characters during the beta testing there would be a lot less whiners in this world but hey u gotta live with it.
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Only indirectly, because the game would possibly have a lot less to whine about. It's not like anyone specifically whines about the hidden characters not being in the beta test so much as attribute that fact as one of the reasons why the infinites were allowed to slip through.
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http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
emeraldazn
160th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(6):stuff" , posted Mon 1 Sep 18
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im saying if they included the mid boss chars then most definately would the easy infinites be found..thus..less whiners. thats about the only critical thing (the infinites) that keeps the whiners from shutting up.
oh yeah..looks like o. iori still has his '97 infinite..i cant seem to connect with C tho, only with stand a or stand b. if anyone wants to try with C be my guest (if they even know what the infinite is)
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[this message was edited by emeraldazn on Mon 1 Sep 18:45]
TiamatRoar464th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(7):stuff" , posted Mon 1 Sep 20:11
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im saying if they included the mid boss chars then most definately would the easy infinites be found..thus..less whiners.
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Yea. That's what I meant. It would indirectly mean less whiners by getting rid of the thing they whine about.
But I don't think it'd get rid of them completely. I've seen lots of other complaints about SvC ranging from sloppy hit detection to MvC-ish traps for some chars to guard cancelling supposedly being lame to the extreme. Some of which I don't and some of which I do agree with, but it's all still separate beefs various people have with the game besides infinites.
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http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
ONSLAUGHT2383th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
"Re(1):its a trap" , posted Mon 1 Sep 22:10
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The whole avatar thing was uncalled for. woosh.
I would also like to point out that Sushi Bunny might be not human, but an evil macro script, note the original post:
Hello everybody,
Long time no write here. Well, I moved into a new apartment just minutes away from Capcom, and it seems nice there. Anyways, my brother said at a local Golfland, there's an arcade version of this, and he said it was crap. I dunno. I was gonna try it, but my comic deadline for my story kept nagging in my head. Any comments?
sssushi :O)
This is almost identical to a post regarding the matrix reloaded sucking and how his friend (or brother or uncle or family dog, or santa claus) saw it before everyone else. His next post will probably be about how a friend of his (or brother or uncle or family dog, or santa claus) saw the movie in a super secret screening and he said IT SUCKED HARD CORE. Its a castlevania pattern!
ITS A TRAP PEOPLE
Edit: detective
That's an actual Battletoads quote, actually :) I got it when I beat the game and I just had to take a screenshot because it was so hilariously corny.
Oh, and the link to the plot guide works now, by the way. And anyone who's read it thoroughly should be able to tell that I don't exactly enjoy a lot of Street Fighter's plot. I just chronicle it. You can pretty much find a comment from me saying "Why did you do that, Capcom!?" in nearly every other character bio or so.
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nice
Messatssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssushi ^_^
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emeraldazn
160th Post
Regular Customer
"Re(8):stuff" , posted Tue 2 Sep 10:00
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Yea. That's what I meant. It would indirectly mean less whiners by getting rid of the thing they whine about.
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lol.."they"..why not change that to "i". j/p btw
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TiamatRoar466th Post
Gold Customer
"Re(9):stuff" , posted Tue 2 Sep 11
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lol.."they"..why not change that to "i". j/p btw
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Har har har. You mispelled j/p, and that wasn't a very nice "joke".
Besides, that would indicate that A) I was the only one to whine about it, and B) that the first thing I whined about was the infinites. The former several other people have already chimed into this thread with the same qualms, and for the latter, my very first complaint was actually about Geese's max mode combo and Geese in general.
Ass. No one in this thread called the people who praised SNK vs Capcom as fanboys until AFTER they called the people who "whined" about SvC to be whiners with invalid complaints. Maybe if you people weren't so quick to jump onto the throats of people who had opposing views from yours, then they wouldn't retaliate in kind so much.
nice
Messatssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssushi ^_^
[this message was edited by ONSLAUGHT on Tue 2 Sep 12:40] |
| Juke Joint Jezebel 2232th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
|  "Re(2):its a trap"
, posted Tue 2 Sep 13:00:
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Charlotte and Haohmaru stood on the hill overlooking the place where Amakusa’s castle once stood. The evil had been vanquished. Now they had to decide where to go from here...
Come on, Haohmaru thought. Tell her.
“Charlotte...I...uh...”
He kicked the ground in disgust. “Dammit, I can’t go on like this. Look, I know you’re madly in love with me...and I do mean madly...but it’s not gonna happen. We’re not going to marry, we’re not going to run off to a white castle together. We’re not an item.”
Charlotte’s response came surprisingly fast. “Oh, that’s okay. I mean, you were just a frivolous fantasy, anyway. I already got lots of men back in France...”
The news hit Haohmaru like a thunderbolt. “Say WHAT??”
“What. You know, I’m surprised it didn’t occur to you sooner. Do you really think that a stunningly beautiful woman who helped free France from the monarchy would have trouble finding a guy? And as far as monogamy goes, have I ever, even once, exhibited the behavior of a reactionary bible-thumping monogamy-crazed Catholic nutball? Hmm?”
“Damn. You got me there. Oh well, I was thinking of going back to Oshizu anyway.”
“Oshizu?? The one you left? But...but...”
“Oh, now who’s the reactive bible-slapper. Look...I left her so I could devote myself fully to practicing the Way of the Sword. But I don’t need to anymore... because I’ve achieved total mastery! Stick a kunai in me, I’m done! I’m a free man! And so I’d like very much to renew a relationship with a loved one and settle down.”
“Wow. I had no idea...”
Just then a battered-looking Kazuki Kazama staggered into view with a young woman slung over his shoulder.
“Aw gee, thank you both SO much for not saving my sister. I’m sure it took an ENORMOUS amount courage to leave her in the castle to die!”
Haohmaru and Charlotte slapped their foreheads. Dang, they thought they forgot something...
LOVE AND ROCKET KICKS
by Darrell Wong
“You wanted to see me?”
Athena Asamiya fidgets as she sits on the end of the bench beneath the great tree. “Kyo, please, sit down. There’s something I’ve been meaning to tell you. I...”
Kyo Kusanagi sits on the opposite end of the bench. “Look, if there’s something you have to tell me, please do. Whatever it is, I can handle it. I promise.”
“Okay...” She takes a deep breath. It feels like hours before she summons the courage to speak again.
“Kyo...the time that we were together, here, in this school, was one of the happiest times of my life. I never could have made it without you. Now...I have something...” She was near tears. “...something to confess. Kyo...I...”
Kyo braces himself in anticipation.
“I LOVE SIE KENSU!!”
The news hits him like the bomb hit Hiroshima. No...no! NOOOOO!! It can’t be!! SHE SAID IT WASN’T LOVE!!
“Yes, Kyo (sniff), I love him. Maybe I didn’t in the past...way, way in the past...but I do now. He’s been with me my whole life. I...(sob) can’t live...without him. I’m sorry, Kyo (sob), so sorry...WAAAAAAHH!!”
Kyo and Athena embrace amidst a torrent of tears. Athena suddenly thrusts her all-to-brief lover away and rises. Her final words echo in Kyo’s ears for all eternity...
“Goodbye forever, Kyo...”
Kyo watches mutely as the love of his life, the only girl he ever loved, runs away, tears streaking behind. He wishes he could find the strength to chase her down, instead of being eaten alive with the unbearable emptiness that is just beginning to...
“She came all the way here just to tell you that?” scoffs Yuki as she approaches Kyo. “Couldn’t she have just called or wrote a letter or something?”
“Well, she did go to this high school once...”
“Oh yeah, for six glorious months! And why’s she ‘confessing under the tree’ now? You’re supposed to do that before graduation, not after! And this isn’t even the school that made up that stupid legend!”
“Oh, I don’t know. A lot of my classmates really believed in the legend of the tree. You have to admit, it is pretty compelling.”
Yuki leans on Kyo. “Well, as long as we’re here...”
“Confession isn’t the only way of expressing one’s love, darling.”
“You don’t say.”
Their eyes close as their lips meet.
Meanwhile, Athena, having brushed aside the last of her tears, is met at the school’s front gate by a bewildered Sie Kensu. “What the hell was that all about?”
“Oh, just a boy-girl thing...” answers Athena, looking as innocent as possible.
“A tearful breakup with someone you never even dated is just a boy-girl thing? Sheesh. And what’s with this ‘goodbye forever’ business? Don’t you even remember that thing coming up, you know, that big event where we’re with some old drunk guy, and Kyo’s with a grunting judo muscle-man and a blond sexpot who whines too much? Remember?”
“Aw, you just don’t appreciate good romance.”
Sie moves close to Athena. “I’m afraid I’m going to have to take exception to that.”
Athena giggles before they engage in their second long, passionate kiss of the day.
* * * * * * * * * *
Benimaru Nikaido carefully weaved through traffic as he sped toward the horizon. Normally his thoughts were never far from Kyo Kusanagi, who was both a friend and a curse to him. No matter how much he accomplished, no matter how much he won, he could never escape the shadow of the Magatama fighting superstar.
This time, however, his mind was preoccupied with his other ally in the King of Fighters tournament, Goro Daimon. Goro had called him earlier and excitedly told him about “a very important announcement”. He didn’t get excited about much; in fact, he was probably the most reclusive and quiet of the entire KOF gang. What could be so important to him that he’d need his best friend there?
Beni finally arrives at his destination, a large, well-equipped dojo located inside a crowded mall.
Several judo students, whom Beni recognized as Goro’s old sparring partners (before he quit to compete in KOF), had gathered in the middle of the room. Beni runs up to them and calls out to Goro.
“Benimaru! Welcome! I’m glad you could make it! You’re just in time for my big announcement.”
The students and Beni fix their eyes on Goro.
“My friends, it is an honor to be in your company again. There is someone I’d like you all to meet. I met her not too long ago at a local rec center...but perhaps you’d like to hear it from her, yes?”
A young woman emerges from a door in the back. “This is my new girlfriend, Ryoko.”
“Hey, fellow judo crushers, nice to meet you.”
The classmates offer handshakes and greet her warmly. Benimaru is absolutely tickled. “Son of a gun! I never dreamed this would happen. Goro’s found him a girl!”
“Woman,” corrects Ryoko. “Yeah, I know, I look really young. Total pain in the butt sometimes. ‘Oh my god, you really are over 18?’” It was true: she was at least 20, but with her baby face and delicate features she could still easily pass for a teenager.
“So, tell us about yourself,” inquires one of the students.
“Well, not much to tell, actually. I take up judo at an early age. It’s hard and I think about quitting, but I keep going. I win a few things...a Rookie of the Year award here, a national championship there. And then, without warning, came...the turning point.”
“She got beaten pretty badly by a ninja by the name of Hanzo. And then she fell in love with him,” chides Goro.
“Yes,” sniffs Ryoko, “in my youthful indiscretion, or maybe because I got my brains scrambled in that fight, I suddenly found him irresistible. I’d spend the better part of the year chasing after him. Trouble was, he didn’t have time for love...he only wanted one thing...”
“A man?” quips Benimaru.
“That would have made more sense. No, all he wanted was strong opponents to challenge, and beat, en route to even more strong opponents. It never ended for him. No matter how many opponents he beat, he always needed more. Never mind all the fights he lost. And there were quite a few.”
“By now she was questioning the whole point of judo. She wanted to be a normal teenager again.”
“For about a week. After which I found out that a 16-year- old who regularly tosses around guys twice her size and wins national championships is anything but normal.”
“So anyway, here we are now. We hit it off almost as soon as we met. I guess she just feels more comfortable with a fellow judoka than a ninja.”
Ryoko holds Goro’s arm. “A big, strong, hunky fellow judoka...”
A few students groan, but Benimaru is smiling broadly. He’s just happy that Goro finally has someone.
The class disbands and Benimaru gets up to leave. “Well, I’d better get going now. I have to catch up with my own honeybunch in a few minutes.”
“You’re seeing a woman?” asks Ryoko.
“Well, not just a woman. Actually, several women. I’m not Catholic, you know.” He looks suspiciously at the self-proclaimed judo queen. “Why do you ask?”
“Oh, no reason.”
“Yeah, sure. All right, lovebirds, see you later.”
* * * * * * * * * *
Hanzo recoiled in horror as he saw the schoolgirl wearing a headband, gloves, and much too short skirt approach him.
“Good afternoon, sir. I’m Sa...”
“AAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!”
Hanzo runs for the hills as fast as his legs will carry him.
“Fine! DON’T participate in my survey! I’m sure I’ll have no trouble at all finding 35 more respondents!
* * * * * * * * * *
The Soldiers of Fortune had settled down inside the large tent, awaiting the news that their leader was about to give.
Leona stood in front of her troop wearing her usual steely expression, but she clearly was going through some emotional turmoil. Directly in front of her were Ralf and Clark, the two longest-serving soldiers in the SOF and her most trusted allies. <More than allies...> she thought.
Finally, she addresses the troop. “My loyal soldiers, welcome. It’s good that you were all able to make it here on such short notice. A personal matter concerning myself has come up. For the sake of the well-being of the unit, it is vital that I clear it up for everybody.”
Ralf buries his face in his hands at these words.
“As you’re all too aware of by now, I’ve recently begun a romance with Ralf. At the time, I didn’t think there was a problem. However, Clark...Clark is every bit as valuable as Ralf is. Ralf and Clark, you will remember, were Heidern’s two most trusted men, and, incidentally, the only members of this unit to have competed in every King of Fighters tournament.”
Several of the soldiers were becoming worried.
“Be that as it is, there was no reason for Clark to be jealous or bitter. Until he found this.”
She holds up a black-and-white picture of herself, Clark, and Ralf on a jeep. Much of the assembly gasps when they see the heart shape drawn around Clark’s face.
“I wish I could say that some jerk stole this and drew the heart, but no. It was me.” She notices Clark slumped in his chair. “And no, I wasn’t ‘throwing him one’, as it has been suggested. I really do have...feelings for him.”
A loud murmur runs through the mercenaries. Leona silences them and continues. “So, from the looks of things, it seems I have what’s known as a ‘triangle’ on my hands. Now, I do not wish to have infighting among my men, especially my best men. I cannot allow this ‘triangle’ to continue.”
Long pause. “There is only one way to resolve this.”
She walks over to Clark. Ralf and several others watch in shock as she takes his right hand in hers...
...then turns to Ralf and takes his left.
Everyone is too stunned to speak, except Leona, her face now beaming with happiness. “I love them both and could never choose one over the other. So I choose both.”
Just then someone in the front row, who had just signed up a few weeks earlier, shouts in protest, “Wait a minute, you can’t do that! That’s two timing! Two timing!”
“Um, Hector,” responds Leona, “no it isn’t. See, ‘two timing’ suggests that I’m already going out with both of them, without letting them know, whereas...”
“You can’t do this!” screams a hysterical Hector. “It’s wrong! It’s immoral! You can’t have your cake and...”
“SHUT UP, HECTOR! I’m the leader of this unit, and I’ll have anything I damn want! I’ve made my decision and I’m sticking with it. And so help me, yell at me again and I’m shipping you off to Kim Kaphwan, is that clear?”
The threat silences the brash greenhorn for the moment. But some of the men are still uneasy. “Ralf, Clark, buddies, you’re not going to go along with this, are you? I mean, don’t you find this a bit undignified?”
“Er...not really,” responds Ralf. “I mean, she never told me she didn’t love anyone else. And besides, Clark’s a good boy. I can trust him.”
“Yeah,” continues Clark. “I mean, I’ll never worry about Leona seeing someone else, because I’ll already know that she is! And with two men looking after her, it’ll make it easier to keep her satisfied, know what I mean?”
“Well put,” snaps Leona.
Later that day, Heidern (retired from active duty but still closely tied to the SOF), meets with Leona. “I really liked the way you handled a delicate situation so decisively. You certainly know how to deal with men.”
“I know. That’s why I’m the leader.”
* * * * * * * * * *
Night at the Kaphwan residence. Kim Kaphwan’s wife has been standing at the front door of her home for nearly an hour. Finally she sighs in resignation and goes back inside.
Her oldest son taps her on the leg. “Is daddy coming back?”
“Don’t you worry, dear. He’ll be back soon.”
“You’ve been saying that for the past y...”
“I said he’ll be back soon!”
The boy backs away and slinks out of sight.
The woman leans against the door. <Come back, Kim...please, come back...>
* * * * * * * * * *
“All right, what have you clowns been up to?” growls Kim as he glowers at the two ex-cons.
“I caught Chang trying to steal out of the cash box,” squeals Choi Bounge. “Luckily, I happened to catch the creep in the act.”
“Oh, I’ll bet,” snorts Chang. “Tell me, what were you doing in the closet containing the cash box, anyway?”
“Huh? Oh...um, I...uh...wanted to make change!”
“Hoo boy. You want a matador with that bull? Kim, it seems obvious to me that Choi here’s the one who had stealin’ on his tiny little mind.”
“Take that back, ball-brain!”
“Make me!”
Words are replaced with blows as Chang Koehan and Choi Bounge do what they do best to each other.
Kim bangs his head on a wall. “I really, REALLY hate my life...”
* * * * * * * * * *
The Bogard brothers had been battling tooth and nail for nearly a minute and a half, and both were close to exhaustion. They pause for breath and launch yet another assault.
“ZANEIKEN!!”
“BURN KNUCKLE!!”
A loud crack fills the air as fist and elbow collide. Terry takes the worst of it; he’s unsteady on his feet and his vision is hazy. Andy, hurt but still not broken, advances to finish him off.
Terry’s in serious trouble. He needs to turn the tables somehow. Something, anything.
Just then, he hit upon an idea. A silly idea, but maybe, just maybe, it would work...
He turns his back to his enemy and points excitedly. “Hey look, it’s Mai! And she’s wearing lingerie!”
Andy’s eyes have become the size of salad plates.
“Auuuuuuggghhh!!”
Terry gets in position to launch his Power Geyser as Andy runs around in a blind panic...
* * * * * * * * * *
Joe Higashi was cruising around the streets of Bangkok with his date for the evening. “You know, it’s funny...back in Southtown they feel real sorry for me because I ‘never get the girl’.”
“Ah, who wants an American girlfriend, anyway. Everyone knows that Asians make the best wives.”
“Well, I don’t want to go that far...not until we’ve explored intimacy, if you know what I mean.”
“Oh, you Muetai champs are all alike.”
* * * * * * * * * *
Terry described every detail of the fight to Blue Mary. They were having dinner in one of Southtown’s finest restaurants, celebrating the anniversary of the day they fell in love.
Mary snickers as Terry finishes his account. “My god, he freaked out at the thought of Mai in lingerie? I mean, hasn’t he ever seen her costume?”
“Well, you know Andy. Faints at the sight of flesh. Good thing you found me first, huh?”
“I know. Say, how did we get attracted to each other, anyway?”
“Oh, no particular reason. I was this lone wolf who knew a bunch of girls, but mostly groupies, teenyboppers, bimbos, and the like. Not bad, but no one that I’d call a mate. And you spent most of your adult life in that Hong Kong agency before moving here, so of course you didn’t meet too many eligible bachelors. Right time, right place for both of us. Pretty simple.”
“Yeah.” She snuggles up to Terry. “All relationships should be as perfect as ours.”
“Two people totally in love, free from bitter rivalries or cruel prejudices.”
“Plus at some point they gotta have sex.”
Appreciative laughter. Damn that Andy and Mai.
Appetizers were served, and a night of dinner, music, and dancing began, culminating with the fulfilment of the obligation that Mary was kind enough to mention.
* * * * * * * * * *
Mai Shiranui could barely believe her ears. “You lost because he said WHAT??”
“Well, it kinda caught me off guard...” Andy whimpers.
“Ooh! Andy, I swear, you keep up this ‘virgin’ act and I’m going to show up to one of your fights NAKED!”
Andy gurgles a bit before falling into a coma.
“Hey, are you listening to me? Andy...Andy!!”
Mai looks in dismay when she sees that Andy has (once again) stopped breathing. She grumbles as she starts giving him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.
<Well, at least I get a kiss out of all this...>
* * * * * * * * * *
Ryo Sakazaki kissed his date lightly on the cheek. “Thanks for a great evening, King. Tell you what, I’m not flying off to Beijing or anything anytime soon. Why don’t we do this every week?”
“Oh, I’d love to, but I’m just so busy managing the bar nowadays. I think I can squeeze you in sometime next week, though.”
“That’d be great. Okay, I think I’d better pick up Yuri now.”
“Sure you don’t want to spend the night at my place?”
“King, this is Yuri I’m talking about...”
“Oh. All right, I won’t hold you back any longer.”
They exchange a parting hug.
“Good night, Ryo.”
“Good night, King.”
Ryo pulls away from the bar and heads down a busy road. Ten minutes later, he saw an irked-looking Yuri standing on the sidewalk. She gets in abruptly and slams the door.
For a long time she doesn’t say a word. Finally, Ryo can’t take the suspense anymore. “So, sis, how did your big date with Robert go tonight?”
Yuri takes an uncomfortably long time to respond.
“Grr...arrrgh! Robert Garcia is the biggest jerk on the planet! I hate him! Hatehimhatehimhatehimhatehim!!”
“Wow. I’m sorry to hear that. I really hoped things would work between you two.” Another uncomfortable silence. “So I guess this means you’ll be breaking up soon, huh?”
“Break...up? Why?” stammers Yuri.
“I know I’m going to regret asking this, but why not?”
To Ryo’s dismay, Yuri’s eyes fill with stars. “He’s soooooo dreamy. Ooh...”
Ryo groans. “Oh, sister...what am I going to do with you?”
Yuri finally returns to a semblance of normality. “You don’t have to do anything. I’ll have you know that Robert and I are getting along just fine, despite our tiiiiiiny disagreements.”
“Tiny? You just told me that he was the biggest jerk on the planet.”
“Aw, I didn’t mean that. He’s a pretty decent guy, actually. It’s just that he sometimes gets a big ego...and has to go on and on and on about his glorious self...” Yuri’s face glows red.
“Yuri, I have a big class tomorrow, I don’t need this...”
“Huh? Oh, sorry, sorry. But Robert’s that kind of guy, you know? You either love him or hate him. Or both.” She pats Ryo on the back. “But I do love him...when I don’t hate him.”
Ryo winces. “Remind me to be in the next state when he gives you the ring, okay?”
* * * * * * * * * *
Kasumi Todo sat under the cherry tree and looked skyward. Above her, soft pink petals bobbed and danced as they slowly cascaded toward earth. (A vivid image of a schoolgirl wearing a headband, gloves, and much too short skirt flashed through her mind for some reason.)
For now, she was not a mighty aikido warrior and the future leader of the house of Todo, but simply a woman enjoying the day. She liked this park; it was one of the few places she could be free from the world’s endless problems. Where she could just contemplate her life.
<Ryo Sakazaki...when will I see you again?>
She pulls out an old photo of Ryo and gazes at it longingly.
Yes, she had, subtly but perceptively, grown to love the Kyokugenryu master. Granted, there wasn’t much not to love (well, he did get impatient at times). And the very fact that their families used to be bitter enemies only made him even more alluring. <Guess Shakespeare knew what he was talking about after all.>
Of course, the fact that they were from different countries was a small detriment. And Ryo certainly wasn’t the type to just sit and wait for his princess to come. But couples have certainly been formed under worse circumstances.
It didn’t hurt that she was the best friend of Ryo’s sister. <Like they say, to capture a horseman, you must first capture the horse. Something like that.>
She pulls out a photo of herself with Yuri. <She treats me like a sister. Always pouring out her heart to me, always asking how I’m doing, never missing a chance to take me shopping or swimming or just hanging out. Well, I suppose after filling the spot on the Women’s Team that she vacated, she should be grateful.>
To think that she’d be so in love with the two people who were once her most bitter foes.
Tucking the photos away, she begins daydreaming about when they’ll meet again, and how she’ll act on her feelings when it happens...
“Kasumi Todo!”
Standing in front of her was a short, fat, dishevelled girl with a scowl on her face.
“Do you think that I will permit you to steal away my Ryo Sakazaki! No! I refuse to let it happen! He belongs to me and me alone! Now, Todo, prepare y...”
*POW* *WHAM* *CRACK* *BIFF* *CRUNCH* *SMACK* *BANG* *WHAP* *CRUNCH* *WHAP* *POW* *BIFF* *KONG* *WHAM*
“Oh, GROW UP, Akane!!”
“Ksgurghghhllll...”
* * * * * * * * * *
“You wanted to see me?”
Shermie looks around the backstage area, which was empty except for her and Yashiro Nanakase. “Yashiro, there’s something I’ve been meaning to tell you for some time.”
“Anything, Sherm.”
She breathed deeply. “I...l...l...”
“Look? Learn? Lure?”
“L...love...”
“Love what? Dancing? Partying? Hitting on guys? Hitting guys?”
“No...it’s...”
She abruptly freezes.
“Is something wrong?”
“Shh! Stay still and don’t make a sound.
She tiptoes over to the door and abruptly yanks it open, dragging in...
“Chris?? Were you eavesdropping on us?”
“No! No! Uh...um...I...uh...heard that...that a gang kidnapped you and put an impostor in your place, so I was waiting to see if you...I mean, the impostor...”
“DIE, CHRIS!!”
“Aaaaaaaaaa!!”
Within seconds Yashiro and Shermie are busy pounding the daylights out of the treacherous kid.
One of the other band members happens to pass by. <Well, that’s one thing that she loves for certain...>
* * * * * * * * * *
Iori’s eyes gleamed as he advanced toward the abandoned warehouse. This was where he would face his nemesis Kyo Kusanagi and settle the score once and for all. No stupid tournament, no teammates, no meaningless final battle against some peon named Rugal or Goenitz. Now it was man vs. man...to the death.
Finally, he was there. He kicks open the door.
“Who the HELL are you??”
Something was not right here.
“I could ask you the same question!”
Standing in front of him was someone who was not Kyo Kusanagi, not a Kusanagi, not a Magatama warrior, not a participant in any of the King of Fighters tournaments, and in fact not even a man.
“Look, doofus, I’m going to meet a little **** here and beat the **** out of her. And I don’t want an ugly **** like you getting in the way, understand?”
Iori clenches his fists. “I am Iori Yagami, and it is here that I will destroy my nemesis Kyo Kusanagi. And I do not take kindly to insults.”
“Yeah, so what?”
“Grr...impudent wench! Who are you? How did you come to this place? Tell me or die where you stand!”
“Whoa, cool your jets, old man. Name’s Karin Kanzaki. The finest specimen of womanhood imaginable, as you can see. I’m also one tough **** fighter. In fact, no one’s ever beaten me, except...HER.”
Iori calms down and smirks. “So this is just a silly vendetta. Feh.”
“Look, ********, nobody asked you to come here and bother me! Argh...damn you, Sakura.”
“Who’s Sakura?”
Karin was losing what little patience she had. “The ***** who beat me, you ****!! She gave me a note telling me to wait for her here tonight so we could...”
“Wait a minute! Kyo gave me a note telling me to meet him here tonight!”
For a moment they stop and think.
“Well, isn’t this just totally **** up.”
“Hmph. To think that you’d become so obsessed over such an insignificant loss. The feud between the Kusanagis and Yagamis has persisted for millennia. We of the Yagami clan fight for the honor of Magatama, and will not rest until...”
“Oh, give it up, Musashi. You’re just a freaky old man looking for excuses.”
Iori’s face blackens with rage. “You dare insult a Yagami?? I’ll kill you for that!!”
“Yeah, whatever. Don’t let the door hit you on...”
Iori charges Karin, who screams and jumps back just in time to avoid Iori’s first lunge. This wasn’t the opponent she was expecting, and she’s never faced anything like Iori’s uncontrollable bloodlust. She’s unprepared, confused, frightened...defenseless.
Iori pins her against a wall. Their eyes meet, his tinged with fury, hers with fear.
And then a sudden revelation hits them...
“We’re alike...you and I, we’re the same!” gasps Iori.
“You...you really hate this Kyo, don’t you?”
“Well, no...I mean, I want to kill him, but not because of history...” He struggles to find the words. “Kyo had everything I never did. A supportive family, a beautiful girlfriend, sanity...I felt cheated.”
Karin, for once, feels compassionate. “I know how you feel. I come from a rich family. Yep, just your poor little rich girl, never wanting for anything, except...love.”
“Love?”
“You know, that really nice feeling? Yes, it’s shameful to admit, but nobody loves me.”
They continue for several minutes, opening their hearts and building rapport bit by bit.
Finally, Iori decides to take charge in his life for once.
“I don’t think either of our archenemies is going to make it. What say we forget about our vendettas and just enjoy the night?”
“You mean it? You really want to spend the night with me?”
“Right now, there’s no one else I’d rather spend the night with.”
“Gosh...I don’t know what to say.”
Their eyes meet.
Time stands still...
* * * * * * * * * *
From a rooftop, Kyo watches the entrance of a warehouse through a pair of binoculars.
He sees an extremely miffed Karin exit.
About a minute later, he sees a heavily-bruised Iori crawl out.
<Oh well, it was worth a shot...>
*Epilogue*
A cafe in Japan. Tiffany Lords is about to deliver some bad news to her American allies Roy Bromwell and Boman Delgado.
“...but you see, that was the only reason I kissed you. I don’t love either one of you; I just wanted to help you win.”
Roy is speechless. Almost. “...Tiff...I don’t believe it. I mean, there were hearts and cherubs flying around...”
“Pure special effects. Indicative of what the Team-up Attack supposedly was about, which it wasn’t.”
Roy cannot believe what he’s hearing. “No...this isn’t right! I’m the captain of the football team, you’re the head cheerleader...we were made for each other! You gotta love me!”
“Oh please, spare me the Evita act. I mean, we just barely met. Has it ever occurred to you that I might not yet be attracted to you?”
Boman holds back Roy, who looks on the verge of a seizure. “People, please, let’s remain civil. Now, I know that most people get quite passionate about matters of the heart, and some have trouble accepting the choices others’ make. And Roy, I could tell even before you met Tiffany that you never liked taking no for an answer.”
“Tiff...don’t you need a man?”
“Well, actually, I wouldn’t say I need a man. Maybe I want a man, but I need a man only as much as...”
“TIFF!!”
Boman has to intercede again. “What I’m trying to say is that Tiffany, like any woman, is going to follow her heart, no matter what anyone else may desire. It is still possible to win her over, of course, but no one is entitled to her. The same goes for you, Roy. How would you like it if a woman you didn’t like kept pursuing you?”
“Well, if you put it that way...”
Tiffany relaxes and smiles. “Don’t worry, kiddo. I mean, there are still rumors that Kyo Kusanagi and Athena Asamiya are in love. Which means, of course, that Kyo doesn’t love his real girlfriend, and Athena hates a man she’s now touring the world with!”
Roy stifles a laugh. “Where did you get that from, a tabloid?”
“See? Why does everything have to be like some stupid comic book? Why does every romance have to turn into a triangle? And why can’t a sexy, well-endowed cheerleader choose whichever boyfriend she wants? You see what I mean?”
“Yeah. Hey, you’re pretty smart for a ‘bimbo’.”
“Oh, don’t even try to stereotype me, Mr. Touchdown.”
Boman jumps in again. “Something just occurred to me. Tiffany, you said that your Team-up Attack was in no way indicative of romantic feelings. So, theoretically, if you were teamed up with another woman, you could...”
“NO!! DON’T GO THERE!!” screams Roy. “Do you want to give me nightmares for a month?”
Ignoring a few giggles from Tiffany, Boman continues. “Sorry. But anyway, doesn’t this simple fact imply that all Team-up Attacks that resemble a display of affection really aren’t? That the teammates in question are, like Tiffany, just trying to help?”
“Well, yes, that is a possibility.” answers Tiffany.
Just then the flying body of Batsu Ichimonji lands just inches from Tiffany’s seat. An incensed Hinata Wakaba storms into the room.
“It was a freaking TEAM-UP ATTACK, you moron!! I do not love you, understand? In fact, I find you downright obnoxious!”
Batsu somehow is able to get to his feet. “Quit the macho act, all right? I mean, you’re just a girl.”
“Just a girl? Just a girl? JUST A GIRL??”
Hinata does a multitude of extremely unladylike things to Batsu.
“Kids...” chuckles a bemused Boman.
* * * FIN * * *
EDIT:
added more stories
[this message was edited by Juke Joint Jezebel on Tue 2 Sep 22:10] |
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"Re(5):Snk vs Cap = Crap??" 
