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| Fygee 753th Post
 
Red Carpet Regular Member+
   
    
    
|  "Re(1):KOF 2k3 on MVS"
, posted Thu 7 Aug 12:44
Dammit, if they rehash the same shit again, I'm going to be pissed. I love the sprites, I love the gameplay, but its time for a major change.
If they don't do something to completely revitalize this series, its going to die and fast. It positevely begs to be made on new hardware. I was hoping and praying that it would be brought to the Atomiswave, but I guess that was just a pipedream.
$10 says it'll just be same deal as '01 and '02. Senselessly hyperactive backrounds with a horrendously dull color pallete and tunes that shit on the greatness of the original sound team.
SNK used to be about breaking new ground in terms of 2D graphics and gameplay. Now its just the same "Its good enough, hi-res is too hard" attitude that Capcom has. I'm all for keeping the Neo alive, but something has to give, otherwise SNK Playmore is going to sink just like it did 2 years ago.
I imagine Fran and all the other "Its Neo-Geo or nothing" hardcore purists are ecstatic.
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| RugalBernstein 4397th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
 
| "Re(5):KOF 2k3 on MVS" , posted Fri 8 Aug 00:18:
quote:
What's the total amount of fighting games that's come out in the past five years?
Excluding yearly installements of KOF, you have the GGX series, a handful of doujin fighters (which usually don't recycle sprites), RotD and the other new SNK one (non-recycled far as I know).
So it seems like the majority don't recycle.
The GG series recycles. I don't count doujin fighters, they're FAN MADE, they have little if any actual distribution, and are hardly any sort of moneymaking enterprise. Face it, you know yourself that you're stretching it by including them in an attempt to add weight to your argument... although you're right about RoTD, you aren't right about Matrimelee (which isn't SNK) it re-uses sprites from.. well, ROTD.
As for your comment about the "small companies", Mike, it's true; they have no deadlines to meet, no real budget, and no real expectations to try and live up to. Some turn out like crap, others aren't so bad, but they're essentially fans making it for fun, not for a job.
Edit: Oops, Juan sort of beat me to it, but I was going to say, I think what Arc System Works is doing is even worse; half of the games have very minor play-balance changes and little if anything else done to them; they're pulling another SF 2.
Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Fri 8 Aug 00:30] |
| Fygee 754th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(6):KOF 2k3 on MVS" , posted Fri 8 Aug 00:30
Well, Matrimelee only has 4 recycled sprites, and they were just put in there for fun rather than lack of effort. The rest of the game is completely new in terms of sprites.
Fact is this. Contrary to popular belief, the power of the hardware a game is on can have a large affect on the gameplay. Would KOF play nearly as well on an Atari 2600? Highly unlikely. That's basically what the difference would be between the Neo-Geo and one of the next-gen systems. They could expand the engine further, have more specific hit points, create larger backrounds, amongst various other things.
Rehashing sprites and the general structure of an engine for a year, or two, or three, or even four is fine. But when its upwards of seven years, its definetely time for a change.
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| Rugalbernstein 4398th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):KOF 2k3 on MVS" , posted Fri 8 Aug 00:35:
quote:
Well, Matrimelee only has 4 recycled sprites, and they were just put in there for fun rather than lack of effort. The rest of the game is completely new in terms of sprites.
Regardless, there is SOME RECYCLING.
quote:
Fact is this. Contrary to popular belief, the power of the hardware a game is on can have a large affect on the gameplay. Would KOF play nearly as well on an Atari 2600? Highly unlikely.
This comparision is a bit of a stretch. Naomi is a vastly superior hardware to the neo-geo, and how much of a difference to you see play-wise in things like Capcom vs. SNK 2 to KOF? Is one "much better" than the other? -_-
Sometimes, it's good to follow the old army adage: " Keep it simple, stupid." More game-makers should keep that in mind.
Regardless of all this, though, I don't think anybody here said " A change would be bad". I'd be happy to see KOF updated; I'd love to see new sprites for the characters. I'm simply pointing out the painfully obvious fact that it (sprite re-use) is an extremely common practice.
Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by Rugalbernstein on Fri 8 Aug 00:46] |
| DarkZero
190th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(8):KOF 2k3 on MVS" , posted Fri 8 Aug 01:26
For Christ's sake, people, the company went BANKRUPT. They had NO MONEY. And now, they're roughly one or two years removed from that, just starting to get back on their feet, and you want them to pull out a big budget title that will give Sammy and Capcom a production value beatdown? That's insane. You sound like a hobo being given a free meal asking, "Hey bitch, where's my filet mignon?" We just got SNK back and if they're going to stick around, then we're going to have to put up with a couple of years of smaller titles. They can't release SvC, SS0, and 100% new KOF all in one six month period of time. Something has to give and this year, it's going to be KOF.
quote:
Fact is this. Contrary to popular belief, the power of the hardware a game is on can have a large affect on the gameplay. Would KOF play nearly as well on an Atari 2600? Highly unlikely. That's basically what the difference would be between the Neo-Geo and one of the next-gen systems. They could expand the engine further, have more specific hit points, create larger backrounds, amongst various other things.
Technology can get to a point where a specific product is virtually the same regardless of its medium. A CD sounds much better than an 8-Track tape, but in a blind test, a person using good speakers would be hard pressed to discern whether a song is a CD, a high quality MP3, DVD audio, an OGG file, or this new "Super Audio CD" thing that the RIAA is desperately trying to push. Music simply gets to a point where the medium matters less than the actual execution and mastering of the song. 2D fighters are the same way. There isn't a whole lot of difference, gameplay-wise, between a 2D fighter for the SNES, the GBA, the Neo-Geo, the PS2, or the Xbox. It simply doesn't take a lot of power to express 2D gameplay effectively. And it's easy to see this in effect. KOF '98 and '99 look much better graphically than '00 and '01. Why is this? Not because the Neo-Geo suddenly dropped in graphical power, but because Eolith was just lazy. If SNK actually puts some EFFORT into KOF, then we'll get more backgrounds like that rainy park stage from '99 or the autumn and winter stages from Last Blade.
The only difference between a 2D KOF on the Neo-Geo and a 2D KOF on the PS2 would be graphics and budget. And really, as long as the gameplay is good, who cares about graphics? Especially if those graphics cause a risk to SNK's bottom line and pushes it back toward bankruptcy, robbing us of another Garou or Last Blade game.
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| iggy 1462th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(9):KOF 2k3 on MVS" , posted Fri 8 Aug 02:01:
100% agree with DarkZero here, except...
quote:
KOF '98 and '99 look much better graphically than '00 and '01. Why is this? Not because the Neo-Geo suddenly dropped in graphical power, but because Eolith was just lazy.
First, i still think it's harsh to bash '02. It looks better than many things in '98 (do you really remember some stages of '98?). Then I think it's harsh to bash Eolith, because even if there are many people that worked on previous games, the team itself is new. Their first game sucked (but the fact that SNK went bankrupcy during the development of the game didn't helped) and their 2nd game was imo the best thing of the series. Sure, the backgrounds are less beautifull then in '99 and '00, but '99 as a game sucked. Yes most of it is rehasehd, but what they put in it is good. Backgrounds are fine, musics are fine, the system is great (no surprise they took it and enhanced it for SvC), and the balance, at my good but non competitive level, is better than in any previous game in the series (and the reports I've read on tournaments don't point a massive amount of the same character beeing used).
Well, sorry for my n-th rant on '02, I'm really not a morning person.
And about the MVS... except the problem of emulation, I don't see anything wrong with it. CvS2 was on Naomi. The backgrounds were in 3D AND sucked more than anything I've ever seen in any fighter with a little pretention to be a good game, let alone the self proclamed last Capcom 2D game.
「・・・なんだその笑いは・・・まさかきみがニューハーフだったとか？」
ジョリーン「失礼ね！エルメェスと同じにしないでよ！！」
[this message was edited by iggy on Fri 8 Aug 02:02] |
| Ammadeau 371th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(10):KOF 2k3 on MVS" , posted Fri 8 Aug 03:44:
I don't think people are dissappointed with it being on MVS in general, aside from the fact that it'll be putting effort into making pixely sprites again, but that the fact they are taking the same tired route hints that it'll be that way for the game in general, ie same old sprites, no more than minor gameplay tweaks, etc.
I included doujin fighters because these people aren't doing it for a profit, have far less time and less people, yet are producing new sprites while SNK continues to recycle. I think it makes SNK look even worse.
Yeah, Arc Systems has become lazy with the GG series. Pretty sad to see when they still need to double the animation frames of their sprites to make them look really good.
Maybe KOF2k3 will be amazing, but I'm just getting my hopes up.
PS - The reason 2k2 didn't have all of the KOF characters and wasn't a true dream match was due to hardware limitations, or so SNK said at the time. So hardware is definitely a restraint.
[this message was edited by Ammadeau on Fri 8 Aug 03:46] |
| Fro Boy11 1827th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(2):KOF 3D" , posted Fri 8 Aug 13:11
I'm gonna post what I posted at SNK-Capcom.com about KOF2003 and KOF3D.
As for new graphics and all that, I guess we'll have to wait for a while, but until then I've got something to say that will make the wait easier: PS2 ports.
Think about it. Look at KOF2k1 on PS2. 3D backgrounds, dolby sound support (hopefully, an AST to go with that), characters drawn from scratch, twice the animation, and some new characters that weren't in the DC or AES ports. This is may be what the future of KOF could be like. I'm sure KOF2k2 will be like this, if not better, when its ported to the PS2.
I think SNK Playmore is gonna do this stuff with all the ports. They'll make money with the MVS, AES, and PS2. MVS is madd popular everywhere BUT the US because we're graphic whores, right? Well, they'll use the power of the PS2 to make us happy. They'll get our money that way, as for everyone else, they'll still make money from MVS and AES sales. Its quite simple if you think about it.
I did want a change too, but most people around the world are content with what they have right now anyway, having updated stuff on PS2 ports satisfies EVERYONE. The hardcore MVS, AES buyers that don't want to be abondoned, and the ones that want to see SNK Playmore move on and use better technology to upgrade everything. Don't be surprised if this is the way it's gonna be for now on. Maybe SNK will release the PS2 versions of they're games in the arcades too after a while. You never know.
I hope I got my point across.
If they want better graphics for the game, then they'll have to wait for the PS2 ports like everyone else. I know there's been complaints of how KOF looks, but that's why SNK is working on that with the PS2 ports. They LOOK BETTER than all the other versions, and that's what's gonna make everyone happy. If you like it how it is, you'll buy the AES, or MVS versions. If you want enhancements, you'll love the PS2 ports. That's all there is to it.
We'll get updated games, SNK will make they're money, we'll all be happy and the 2D fighting world won't end. You are failing to see the good in what's going on with SNK right now. They're plan to please everyone without losing money is great!
KOF 3D is made completely for the PS2 by PS2 technology so it'll look better than any other 3D game SNK has done before.
There you go. I hope this makes some of you guys feel better.
Still waiting for a Dan Hibiki and Robert Garcia dream match!
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| Jazzie D 2116th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "My take on this" , posted Fri 8 Aug 15:00:
Here's what I think.
Giving KoF 2003 a graphical change is like updating Bubble Gum Crisis and Dirty Pair. In both cases, the originals were definitely better overall, even though Flash and 2040 have more well-known seiyuu than the originals. If you were to update KoF 2003 art wise, you are left with a fraction of its original self.
If I had a choice between a graphical change with the opportunity to gather new fans and sincereity with sincere fans being happy, I'd take the latter any day. Oh and guess what kids? If you were to give a series a graphical change as well as a system change for that matter, it would eventually become a bust!
Want the most well-known example? Street Fighter III! If you thought Street Fighter III was the best thing in 1999 since ramen, you're only thinking Third Strike! It took Capcom three tries to attract an audience with a Street Fighter III game, and it sort of did, but in the end, it became one of the biggest busts in gaming and Capcom hasn't been the same since for the most part!
Face it! If you want to keep KoF alive, you better not pray for a graphical/fundamentals change! Street Fighter got killed because of change. Don't hope to have KoF killed too!
Edit: I get this feeling that I will have to do a lot of countering.
Takino Tomo-chan - Kimura-sensei why did you become a teacher?
Kimura-sensei - CUZ I LIKE HIGH SCHOOL GIRLS AND STUFF!
[this message was edited by Jazzie D on Fri 8 Aug 16:06] |
| KTallguy 289th Post
Copper Customer
| "Good Take... Take 2!" , posted Fri 8 Aug 16:10:
First off, when I said GGX up there, I was referring to the fact that those seemed to be the NEWEST fighting game sprites out there... I may be wrong but when GGX came out it was all new sprites right? GGXX and all those other games recycled of course :)
My opinion is that games need people to follow them. They can't just appeal to hardcore fans, but they constantly need to be attracting new fans to retain their popularity so that the company makes money.
Unfortunately, most fans today are attracted by glitz, bouncing breasts, and lots of lens flares. For most hardcore fighting fans, the graphics are secondary to the gameplay. But for a game to attract new users, and breed NEW hardcore fighting fans, it needs a compromise.
I personally love KOF and the SNK artists have the ability to put so much personality in their characters. Kyo and K' and the rest are infinitely more interesting then Ken and Ryu to me. The MVS is old, and I personally don't mind that a whole lot. But, when SNK gets back on their feet, they have to move on to better hardware, or they'll never catch up to Capcom. Hardcore fighting fans can't constantly keep SNK alive, as many people have less and less time to play games. SNK needs to attract new fans, but at the same time keep the feel of the old games(and add a twist), so as to please the older fans. That's a very hard thing to do.
I do realize that SF III failed but I don't know why. I thought the first two were really fun, and Third Strike just sealed the deal. Why was SF III so unpopular? Was it unpopular in Japan or just in the US ? I still think SFIII requires much more finesse than CvS2... it's just a balanced traditional fighter.
Anyway, my 2 cents.
Edit: Grammar
[this message was edited by KTallguy on Fri 8 Aug 16:12] |
| CrazyMike 617th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(1):My take on this" , posted Fri 8 Aug 16:41
quote:
Here's what I think.
Giving KoF 2003 a graphical change is like updating Bubble Gum Crisis and Dirty Pair. In both cases, the originals were definitely better overall, even though Flash and 2040 have more well-known seiyuu than the originals. If you were to update KoF 2003 art wise, you are left with a fraction of its original self.
If I had a choice between a graphical change with the opportunity to gather new fans and sincereity with sincere fans being happy, I'd take the latter any day. Oh and guess what kids? If you were to give a series a graphical change as well as a system change for that matter, it would eventually become a bust!
Want the most well-known example? Street Fighter III! If you thought Street Fighter III was the best thing in 1999 since ramen, you're only thinking Third Strike! It took Capcom three tries to attract an audience with a Street Fighter III game, and it sort of did, but in the end, it became one of the biggest busts in gaming and Capcom hasn't been the same since for the most part!
Face it! If you want to keep KoF alive, you better not pray for a graphical/fundamentals change! Street Fighter got killed because of change. Don't hope to have KoF killed too!
Edit: I get this feeling that I will have to do a lot of countering.
Well Garou: Mark of the Wolves was spectacular as a fighter in my opinion with new graphics at that. Not sure how much money it made though.
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| Jazzie D 2118th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):My take on this" , posted Fri 8 Aug 17:13:
quote:
I do realize that SF III failed but I don't know why. I thought the first two were really fun, and Third Strike just sealed the deal. Why was SF III so unpopular? Was it unpopular in Japan or just in the US ? I still think SFIII requires much more finesse than CvS2... it's just a balanced traditional fighter.
The roster. Capcom was so close of not releasing this game at all because testers were complaining that Ryu and Ken were not in it. Even if Ryu and Ken were in it, you still had other favorite characters out. Until Third Strike, the only way you saw Chun-Li was in the hotel stage. People also wanted Chun-Li to be in the game as fighter, not as a cameo character.
It also failed because of the fans. Until Third Strike, almost no one knew that a Street Fighter III existed. They thought that okay. Shadaloo's gone. It's over. Nope. There was a III after II.
I never liked III in general because other than Ryu, Ken and Chun-Li, the only characters I liked overall were the kids. That's it. I hated over half of the roster. They weren't interesting. Besides, people including myself still like Ryu and we still say that he's the hero.
Another reason why I hated III was because of the music. As listening music, it was eh, but as fighting game music, it was that bad. I want to hear Kurenai no Ken dag nab it and I want Ibuki to have a memorable theme with some J-pop flavor! I don't want to expect a cheap techno-like cover up blemishing an already bad game.
Finally, you have the fundamentals. I never liked the parry because they made matches boring and if you didn't know how to parry, the odds favor your opponent severely. That's why people never liked III. It was too technical and adding on, it borrowed elements from an already dead series in Vampire, meaning that Capcom was only desperate for ideas.
There are others like the return of Gouki, one of Andore's kids, the reusing of sprites, only to make the game look even flatter and so forth, but I said so much already. None of the games were fun to begin with. What I said was true. The testers in Japan didn't like the game at first and it ended up being one of the biggest busts out there. Not many people in the U.S. even knew that a III existed until Third Strike came along.
Oh and it's not balanced. Chun-Li is a monster overall. Also, I would have expected Yun and Yang to be at the same level, but Yun is better than Yang overall. Some characters got neutered pretty badly like Ibuki.
Balanced? The game is not even close to balanced. Balance only occurs by accident.
quote:
Well Garou: Mark of the Wolves was spectacular as a fighter in my opinion with new graphics at that. Not sure how much money it made though.
A game can be good and still not do well if you don't strike people's attention. That's how MotW is. At least, that's how I see it. (Okay. Now I'm running out of statements to say.)
Edit: Added in a point.
Edit 2: Fixed a point.
Takino Tomo-chan - Kimura-sensei why did you become a teacher?
Kimura-sensei - CUZ I LIKE HIGH SCHOOL GIRLS AND STUFF!
[this message was edited by Jazzie D on Fri 8 Aug 20:00] |
| Ultima 317th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(3):My take on this" , posted Fri 8 Aug 20:29
> > I do realize that SF III failed but I don't know why.
> The roster. Capcom was so close of not releasing this game at all because testers were complaining that Ryu and Ken were not in it.
Actually, I've heard that that is a BS rumour, and that Ryu and Ken were always in it. (Can anyone confirm? Tiamat? Dash no Christ?). But yes, the roster was a problem. One it was way too small, two it had no old favourites aside from Ken and Ryu (that worked for SF2 because no one gave a shit about SF1, but by the time SF3 was released that was definitely a no-no), and the three the character design was seen as being way out there for most players. Too many freaks like Necro, Oro and Gill (who were no worse than Blanka and Dhalsim, but the Sf2 cast is considered untouchable because they're "classic").
> It also failed because of the fans. Until Third Strike, almost no one knew that a Street Fighter III existed.
Not quite true. Most arcade fans knew about SF3. It's just that almost no one cared. Very few places liked how the game played. The only places where it was played in the US were Texas and CTF. And many people still don't, actually, but by now we've sorta gotten used to it and there isn't much else to play. I think the game still only has cult status in certain areas, and if the Japanese didn't keep beating the US at it at the yearly B/Evo tournaments, most still woulcn't care.
> Finally, you have the fundamentals. I never liked the parry because they made matches boring and if you didn't know how to parry, the odds favor your opponent severely. That's why people never liked III. It was too technical and adding on, it borrowed elements from an already dead series in Vampire, meaning that Capcom was only desperate for ideas.
The parry was a sound idea in principle, but it was horrible in execution. Even with the much weakened parries in 3rd Strike, they're still too good and homogenize the gameplay too much. 3rd Strike would be a much better game if parries didn't exist (it would probably be a lot less balanced though). Also, the super select system is rubbish, which is why Capcom's rightfully never put in any other game.
[snip]
> Well Garou: Mark of the Wolves was spectacular as a fighter in my opinion with new graphics at that. Not sure how much money it made though.
NOw THIS is a game that I'm sure most people (who didn't swipe the rom) don't know exist. I've seen it in an arcade a grand total of ONCE. And it's odd that, even though it *seems* like a good game (HORRIBLY balanced though, if the rankings are any indication - what's with Kevin and all his 7-3, 8-2 and 9-1 matches?), no one seems to really care. It's still fun to play, though that may be because I haven't played it against anyone good. *shrugs*
re: GGX sprites
Concerning the sprites in the GGX series, at what point do you say "these sprites are as good as we can make them" and thus you don't have to make new ones? There is absolutely nothing wrong with the sprites in the GGX series, save maybe perhaps in the animation department (still not up to SF3 levels), and they can certainly add frames of animation, but there's no *need* to redraw them. They're already hi-rez, what more do you people want? UNless they up the resolution again to 800x600, they're not going to get any better looking.
As for the gameplay tweaks, Arc Systems going the SF2 route is the SMART thing because they're tweaking what (to them) is seen as a nearly perfect product. Revolution of the series is totally unnecessary. See, this is what SNK should have done with the SS series, instead of unnecessarily ripping it to shreds after only 2 versions and thus killing the majority of people's interest in the series.
re: KoF2K3 on MVS
Who was *really* expecting SNK to put KoF2K3 on new hardwarre? I mean *really* expecting it? As has been noted elsewhere, the company is pretty much stuck in a catch-22: They simply don't have the resources to move on to newer hardware. They need to maintain the MVS because it's all they have in the short-term. Moving off from the MVS is necessary for long-term viability (or at least for getting out of niche status), but they simply don't have the funds for it. Translating games to other systems is definitely a plus, but I don't know if it's enough. I doubt their games sell that much worldwide, especially since 2D fighters have long been the domain of hardcore players only, which only make up a small portion of the market. Unless a miracle occurs, we can expect MVC rehash for years to come (until SNK goes bankrupt again).
re: new hardware vs. old
Newer hardware doesn't *necessarily* translate into better games, but it CAN make a tremendous difference, even if they're only graphical. Marvel Superheroes could not be done on CPSI. MvC2 (haters, shut up) could not be done on CPSII. Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger could not be done on the NES. Final Fantasy 7 could not be done on SNES. Final Fantasy X could not be done on PSX. GUardian Heroes could not have been done on SNES, etc., etc.
re: KoF3D
Just because it's being made for PS2 hardware doesn't guarantee it'll look or play good. Xbox hardware is better than PS2 hardware, and we don't need to go into details about why Kakuto Chojin or that Tobias fighter suck, now do we?
--
Ultima - The Right arm of Scrub Voltron
http://uramble.com/index.html - U's Rambling Page
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| Jazzie D 2119th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):My take on this" , posted Fri 8 Aug 20:40:
quote:
Actually, I've heard that that is a BS rumour, and that Ryu and Ken were always in it. (Can anyone confirm? Tiamat? Dash no Christ?). But yes, the roster was a problem. One it was way too small, two it had no old favourites aside from Ken and Ryu (that worked for SF2 because no one gave a shit about SF1, but by the time SF3 was released that was definitely a no-no), and the three the character design was seen as being way out there for most players. Too many freaks like Necro, Oro and Gill (who were no worse than Blanka and Dhalsim, but the Sf2 cast is considered untouchable because they're "classic").
Nope. Capcom decided that they wanted an all-new roster.
quote:
Not quite true. Most arcade fans knew about SF3. It's just that almost no one cared. Very few places liked how the game played. The only places where it was played in the US were Texas and CTF. And many people still don't, actually, but by now we've sorta gotten used to it and there isn't much else to play. I think the game still only has cult status in certain areas, and if the Japanese didn't keep beating the US at it at the yearly B/Evo tournaments, most still woulcn't care.
True. Still, the number of people that played it matters.
quote:
The parry was a sound idea in principle, but it was horrible in execution. Even with the much weakened parries in 3rd Strike, they're still too good and homogenize the gameplay too much. 3rd Strike would be a much better game if parries didn't exist (it would probably be a lot less balanced though). Also, the super select system is rubbish, which is why Capcom's rightfully never put in any other game.
Yup.
I'll round it off later.
Takino Tomo-chan - Kimura-sensei why did you become a teacher?
Kimura-sensei - CUZ I LIKE HIGH SCHOOL GIRLS AND STUFF!
[this message was edited by Jazzie D on Sat 9 Aug 07:24] |
| KTallguy 290th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(5):My take on this" , posted Sat 9 Aug 01:07
I don't know what people's problem is with SF III though. I thought the cast was unique and full of personality. Sean had his basketball, Ibuki was very creative for a ninja, and the rest of the characters were great. All of them had something new about them, something fresh. Does anyone agree with me about that ? I mean, all the characters in that game were interesting to me anyway. I almost wish they called it something besides Street Fighter, and just had the new characters. I also wish that Alex was more of a main character, like they intended.
Do you really think parrying ruined the game? I thought it added an interesting dynamic to the gameplay. Now, people could jump in and bait a parry, and then wail on them. I believe that unless you're REALLY good at parrys, it's not a huge difference between a player who knows about it and a player that doesn't.
Capcom took a lot of risks and made a lot of changes. They tried to innovate. I commend them for that. I love the music as well. It's unique and different and it suits the game well. Each stage has a recognizable theme that compliments the characters who exist in that stage. And despite the techno beats, there is always a catchy tune. I still love Alex/Ken's theme to this day.
I also like Garou but its exposure here was so limited. I know of one arcade cabinet in San Diego, and I was really surprised it existed. The game is also deceivingly deep, with the fake cancels allowing you to make huge combos.
Earlier, I said that SNK needs to move to new hardware to catch up to Capcom. I mean that in a financial sense. Not in the way that the games play. SNK designers have a lot of talent. Think of what they could do with better hardware. They wouldn't have to take shortcuts, they could throw in as many characters as they wanted... etc. All of this would contribute to a better game and would attract more people to play, helping their sales and boosting their income.
SNK just needs to evolve if they want to make enough money to stay in business. The new hardware won't necessarily make the gameplay any better, but it'll attract more peoeple. I'm sure SNK isn't sitting down at a conference thinking about how they can make their games LESS attractive to casual gamers. They have to innovate.
At least SvC is a good step in the right direction. I just got back from playing it and I think it's one of the best fighting games I've played in years. I played it for at least 5 hours and I didn't get tired of it.
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| Time Mage 1570th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(1):RO: Post your names and profiles" , posted Sat 9 Aug 01:43
quote:
I don't know what people's problem is with SF III though. I thought the cast was unique and full of personality. Sean had his basketball, Ibuki was very creative for a ninja, and the rest of the characters were great. All of them had something new about them, something fresh. Does anyone agree with me about that ? I mean, all the characters in that game were interesting to me anyway. I almost wish they called it something besides Street Fighter, and just had the new characters. I also wish that Alex was more of a main character, like they intended.
Do you really think parrying ruined the game? I thought it added an interesting dynamic to the gameplay. Now, people could jump in and bait a parry, and then wail on them. I believe that unless you're REALLY good at parrys, it's not a huge difference between a player who knows about it and a player that doesn't.
Capcom took a lot of risks and made a lot of changes. They tried to innovate. I commend them for that. I love the music as well. It's unique and different and it suits the game well. Each stage has a recognizable theme that compliments the characters who exist in that stage. And despite the techno beats, there is always a catchy tune. I still love Alex/Ken's theme to this day.
Totally agree. People complain of lack of originality in the casts, but, when they are given a varied and original one like 3rd Strike, it's a freakshow. Well, I like this freakshow.
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| iggy 1467th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "SF3" , posted Sat 9 Aug 04:03
I still don't understand why Capcom tried to push Ibuki as the main female character. Because she's japanese? OK, she's fine and all, but she can't compete in the fan service department with Chunli, Sakura or Cammy (who I hate by the way, but I seem to be alone). I don't see why they didn't push Elena more, she is more bouncy than Mai or the whole DoA cast put together, plus she has personality, she is fun to play...
I liked the series from the first game, I liked Necro because he was not a simple mix of Blanka and Dahlsim despite everything everybody said at the time, and Effy is super cute. I loved Alex and I really would have liked him to become a hero of the scale of Ryu. A grappler non-Zangief-like... He was really great. (And I loved his voice in the first 2 games... Well, yes, OK, HE was my main moeeee character of the game).
「・・・なんだその笑いは・・・まさかきみがニューハーフだったとか？」
ジョリーン「失礼ね！エルメェスと同じにしないでよ！！」
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| TiamatRoar 442th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(1):SF3" , posted Sat 9 Aug 07:41
SF3's roster didn't have as many stereotypes for people to latch onto, perhaps? For at least the original SF3, there really weren't any fighting styles you could tag onto the various fighters. In SF2, you had "That sumo guy" and "that indian yoga guy" and "that boxer guy" and "that army guy". About the only character which you couldn't slap a stereotype/fighting stle onto from the very get go was Blanka, but because Blanka was the ONLY character in the game that you couldn't slap a stereotype/fighting style onto from the outset, he got to be branded with the stereotype, "That miscellaenous/freak guy". Basically, to appeal to the casual gamer, a stereotype that could grab the gamer's attention and make him thus able to choose a favorite character off the bat might have contributed a lot to SF2's huge popularity while being a possible reason why SF3 didn't catch on to most people
Looking at SF3's roster and trying to match them up with stereotypes/archetypes...
Sean: Sure, he had a basketball, but you really can't stereotype him as "that basketball guy" because in the end he's too much too close to the stereotype, "That karate gi shotokan guy" (besides, I don't think you'd want to, anyways). Because he IS Ken's student, after all. But the stereotype slot, "That karate gi shotokan guy" is already occupied by not one but TWO characters, Ryu and Ken.
Alex: Er... okay, he's not big enough to inherit the wrestling guy stereotype from the humongous Zangief. I guess he sorta occupies "that army guy" stereotype but I think by now too many people have come to associate "that army guy" stereotype with flashkicks and sonic booms, not grappling. In the end, if that was the case, Alex had to directly compete against the insanely popular and established Guile. Poor guy didn't have a chance.
Elena: No one was going to say "That capoeira gal". The stereotype didn't exist back then (though Eddie Gordo and Christie did a good job of inventing it). If you wanted her to occupy "that kicking gal" stereotype, then she'd have to compete against Chun-Li for popularity in which case she'd be crushed since Chun-Li is only the most popular character in the Street Fighter universe. People couldn't archetype her as "that girl that looks like Storm" because that outfit so did not look like Storm's. :P
Ibuki: She gets the "that ninja gal" stereotype. In which case, she had to compete against Mai Shiranui... and her breasts. Yet again, Ibuki didn't have much of a chance.
Yun & Yang: Well, I guess there probably was a "Chinese kung-fu twins" stereotype/archetype back then, but I don't think it was too popular.
Oro: You really can't match a stereotype to this guy. He makes you think "What the hell is this?"
Necro: Ditto.
Dudley: He gets the 'boxer stereotype'. Granted, unlike other SF3 characters, he didn't have much competition (he had to compete against such fabulous characters as Balrog and Michael Max!), but boxers always seemed to be a niche stereotype that didn't catch on to too many players, anyways (which I guess would explain why for the longest time, the characters representing the stereotypes were the fabulous wonderful character designs of guys like Balrog and Michael Max). I think his whole "I entered the Street Fighter tournament to win a car!" thing turned off a lot of people.
Gill: Red and Blue skin in a thong is not what most people think of when they think of the religious savior archetype. And red and blue together as a skin color looks so tacky (and since Gill was in a thong, that's a lotta skin color you'll be seeing!). Red and Blue reminds me of punks with tatoos, which Gill was not. Compared to M. Bison, whom people could instantly identify with the "evil army dictator" stereotype, Gill just couldn't catch on as a boss.
Not really going to go into Double Impact or Third Strike because for many people, first impressions has the biggest impact.
Anyways, the point is that a lack of archetypes might be what caused many people to label the game as filled with freaks (when in truth, the only really freaky characters I can think of in the original SF3 are Oro and Necro, whom for the longest time I almost had trouble figuring out where the heck THEIR FACE WAS, for crying out loud. Okay, and scantily clad Gill's various skin colors made me dizzy) or might be why more casual gamers couldn't instantly latch onto the character roster or feel acquainted with it.
Shallow? Probably. But sometimes that's what it takes to get mainstream appeal.
Another roster problem was probably a lack of returning characters.
"But Street Fighter 2 didn't have many returning characters from Street Fighter 1, either!" Yea, well, most people didn't give a crap about ANY of the characters in Street Fighter 1, anyways (and it's not like any of them were playable besides Ryu and Ken. And the battles were so short and RANDOM in that game that you couldn't get a feel for characters, anyways) but people were insanely attached to their Street Fighter 2 characters. SF3 flushed not just a couple of them, some of them, not just most of them, but ALL of them down the toilet. With the exception of Ryu and Ken, who practically might as well have been just one returning character and not two since they both occupied the same archetype/stereotype.
That's just the roster, and there were probably other problems, but those are a couple that I think might have contributed to SF3's failing.
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
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| Hungrywolf 2169th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):My take on this" , posted Sat 9 Aug 09:02
quote:
I don't know what people's problem is with SF III though. I thought the cast was unique and full of personality. Sean had his basketball, Ibuki was very creative for a ninja, and the rest of the characters were great. All of them had something new about them, something fresh. Does anyone agree with me about that ? I mean, all the characters in that game were interesting to me anyway. I almost wish they called it something besides Street Fighter, and just had the new characters. I also wish that Alex was more of a main character, like they intended.
Do you really think parrying ruined the game? I thought it added an interesting dynamic to the gameplay. Now, people could jump in and bait a parry, and then wail on them. I believe that unless you're REALLY good at parrys, it's not a huge difference between a player who knows about it and a player that doesn't.
Capcom took a lot of risks and made a lot of changes. They tried to innovate. I commend them for that. I love the music as well. It's unique and different and it suits the game well. Each stage has a recognizable theme that compliments the characters who exist in that stage. And despite the techno beats, there is always a catchy tune. I still love Alex/Ken's theme to this day.
I also like Garou but its exposure here was so limited. I know of one arcade cabinet in San Diego, and I was really surprised it existed. The game is also deceivingly deep, with the fake cancels allowing you to make huge combos.
Earlier, I said that SNK needs to move to new hardware to catch up to Capcom. I mean that in a financial sense. Not in the way that the games play. SNK designers have a lot of talent. Think of what they could do with better hardware. They wouldn't have to take shortcuts, they could throw in as many characters as they wanted... etc. All of this would contribute to a better game and would attract more people to play, helping their sales and boosting their income.
SNK just needs to evolve if they want to make enough money to stay in business. The new hardware won't necessarily make the gameplay any better, but it'll attract more peoeple. I'm sure SNK isn't sitting down at a conference thinking about how they can make their games LESS attractive to casual gamers. They have to innovate.
At least SvC is a good step in the right direction. I just got back from playing it and I think it's one of the best fighting games I've played in years. I played it for at least 5 hours and I didn't get tired of it.
I love the SF3 cast, especially Elena and Ibuki. I like the way Sean plays, and I also like Alex, though I don't really use him much. Of course, if we were talking Third Strike I have to say that is my favorite version of Chun Li ever. SF3: Third Strike is the best fighter in my opinion. If Second Impact and Third Strike didn't exist, I'd probably give that honor to SF3. CvS2 comes at a close second for me, since I finally got to play with Terry against all the capcom guys and defeat them! I wish Blue Mary had made it in SvC: Chaos. The cast is still great for it. I may like it more than CvS2, or at least when they make a SvC2 I'll like that better than CvS2. I think SF3 will be the top for me for a while though, because Ibuki is so great!
"You're good baby I'll give you that.....but me? I'm magic!"
-Bullseye Daredevil movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
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| Ammadeau 374th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(2):SF3" , posted Sat 9 Aug 11:21
quote:
Sean: Sure, he had a basketball, but you really can't stereotype him as "that basketball guy" because in the end he's too much too close to the stereotype, "That karate gi shotokan guy" (besides, I don't think you'd want to, anyways). Because he IS Ken's student, after all. But the stereotype slot, "That karate gi shotokan guy" is already occupied by not one but TWO characters, Ryu and Ken.
He's the funny black guy. How could you miss that?
quote Er... okay, he's not big enough to inherit the wrestling guy stereotype from the humongous Zangief. I guess he sorta occupies "that army guy" stereotype but I think by now too many people have come to associate "that army guy" stereotype with flashkicks and sonic booms, not grappling. In the end, if that was the case, Alex had to directly compete against the insanely popular and established Guile. Poor guy didn't have a chance.
I always thought of him as 'the steroids guy' but I'm probably alone in that.
quote No one was going to say "That capoeira gal". The stereotype didn't exist back then (though Eddie Gordo and Christie did a good job of inventing it). If you wanted her to occupy "that kicking gal" stereotype, then she'd have to compete against Chun-Li for popularity in which case she'd be crushed since Chun-Li is only the most popular character in the Street Fighter universe. People couldn't archetype her as "that girl that looks like Storm" because that outfit so did not look like Storm's. :P
Foriegn black girl type, kind of a Nadia like situation.
quote She gets the "that ninja gal" stereotype. In which case, she had to compete against Mai Shiranui... and her breasts. Yet again, Ibuki didn't have much of a chance.
No, she's more high school type, basically a new version of Sakura.
quote:
Yun & Yang: Well, I guess there probably was a "Chinese kung-fu twins" stereotype/archetype back then, but I don't think it was too popular.
Gundam Wing type. How could you miss this one? Everyone I know called them the GW twins.
quote You really can't match a stereotype to this guy. He makes you think "What the hell is this?"
Old fart type. Foul but wise old man.
quote Ditto.
What really happened to Ivan from Giant Robo. That's definitely his nose, I'd recognize it anywhere.
quote He gets the 'boxer stereotype'. Granted, unlike other SF3 characters, he didn't have much competition (he had to compete against such fabulous characters as Balrog and Michael Max!), but boxers always seemed to be a niche stereotype that didn't catch on to too many players, anyways (which I guess would explain why for the longest time, the characters representing the stereotypes were the fabulous wonderful character designs of guys like Balrog and Michael Max). I think his whole "I entered the Street Fighter tournament to win a car!" thing turned off a lot of people.
Gentleman boxer type. Queenberry rules and all that rot.
quote Red and Blue skin in a thong is not what most people think of when they think of the religious savior archetype. And red and blue together as a skin color looks so tacky (and since Gill was in a thong, that's a lotta skin color you'll be seeing!). Red and Blue reminds me of punks with tatoos, which Gill was not. Compared to M. Bison, whom people could instantly identify with the "evil army dictator" stereotype, Gill just couldn't catch on as a boss.
Fabio becomes a huge Patriots fan type.
You forgot Makoto, who is definitely Akane Tendo type, and 'look at me! I'm Andre the giant's reanimated corpse!'
The characters haven't grown on me for the most part either and I do like the game. I just still consider it to be a freakshow.
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| iggy 1472th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(2):SF3" , posted Sat 9 Aug 15:51:
quote Er... okay, he's not big enough to inherit the wrestling guy stereotype from the humongous Zangief. I guess he sorta occupies "that army guy" stereotype but I think by now too many people have come to associate "that army guy" stereotype with flashkicks and sonic booms, not grappling.
Am I really the only one to put Alex in the "good old classic bovine ambigously gay" stereotype Capcom filled Final Fight with? And his endings with Tom and Ryu... Hmmm.
quote:
Dudley:I think his whole "I entered the Street Fighter tournament to win a car!" thing turned off a lot of people.
Which is objectively the best reason for a fighter to be in a fighting game. No, second best, the first one is taken by Shermie in Gals Fighter.
And you forgot Remy's stupid Hyoga ending. When we first had the game, a friend kept bashing Remy (he's french, and ugly, it's more than we needed to bash him) and when we finally beat Gill, he said "Yeah, and now we will see him go save his mother, or his girlfrind, who is trapped in a block of ice in a boat in the artic". I still can't believe he felt that right.
「・・・なんだその笑いは・・・まさかきみがニューハーフだったとか？」
ジョリーン「失礼ね！エルメェスと同じにしないでよ！！」
[this message was edited by iggy on Sat 9 Aug 16:08] |
| TiamatRoar 443th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(3):SF3" , posted Sat 9 Aug 21:14
I didn't mention Makoto because I was sticking to SF3 NG characters. First impressions are what matters the most, most of the time, after all.
Yun and Yang are the GW twins, for sure, but... did that archetype even exist before Yun and Yang came along? I figured that Y&Y invented that archetype, but I'm not that versed on anime archetypes.
As for Sean... eh, even being "the funny black guy" sadly probably wasn't be enough to overcome the fact that he wears the same gi as Ryu and Ken and has the same fighting style.
Course, one thing being, I don't know what Capcom could have done to have made SF3's roster as successful as SF2's roster... there weren't enough mainstream archetypes left after SF2 took them all, for one thing.
On a side note that I'm not sure is a bad thing or a good thing, SF3's roster has an amazing amount of teenagers whereas SF2 had none (the closest being Cammy at age 19). Yun, Yang, Sean, Elena, Ibuki, and Makoto (...EVERY SF3 female besides the returning Chun-Li). 4 out of 5 of which are original SF3 New Generation characters. Course, SFA3 has a heck of a lot of teenagers, too, but SFA3 has a huge roster so the ratio isn't as big as New Generation. ...and funnily/expectedly enough, in SFA3, all the 16 year olds are female (unless you count Yun in Upper/Advance for the GBA :P)
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
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| Ultima 318th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(2):" , posted Sun 10 Aug 01:30
First of all, I'd just like to point out that the characters in 3S do NOT play differently. In truth, they mostly play the same, as this semi-random poking/semi-grappler hybrid, thanks to the All Mighty Parry. That is all.
> > -Dedication: Capcom seemed to drop off. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there ONLY 2 SF3 characters to have official heights and weights? And poor Alex's popularity/hero status seems so badly handled...
> Yea, SF3 characters didn't even get bios except for two of them getting a couple measurements mentioned. Despite that, SF3 NG still had more dedication than later Capcom Street Fighter games
Eh? The only proper SF games released after NG were 2I, A3 and 3S, and you can't tell me that NG had more decication than A3. Even characters like Karin and R.Mika have bios!
> (the decline in dedication over time is made painfully obvious by the Street Fighter Eternal Challenge artbook if you saw my rant on that)
Oh? What rant was that? :p
re: SF3
Yeah, the original SF didn't have *that* many freaks in total - it was really just Necro, Oro, and Gill - but the cast was so small that the freaks stood out more. And as Tiamat said, the cast was hard to decipher. I think it's the same reason why the cast of Final Fantasy VIII is despised by so many (the game itself is also despised for other reasons, but I won't get into that here). And the sequels kept *adding* to the freak count. First we got the ridiculously large Hugo (Nickname: HUGE ASS back in the old days of alt.games.sf2 - I'have no idea when Hugo became cool) and Urien (nickname: "Urine"), a headswap of the already freaky Gill. And then Third Strike *again* added the freaks with the likes of Q and Twelve. The cast of SF3 is a little *too* unique, really.
And for all that uniqueness, most of the new characters didn't really play all that new (just hybrids of older characters), or all that interesting, but that was as much the fault of the systems (parrying and being limited to only one super) as the characters.
--
Ultima - The Right arm of Scrub Voltron
http://uramble.com/index.html - U's Rambling Page
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| TiamatRoar 446th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(3):" , posted Sun 10 Aug 02:21:
quote:
Eh? The only proper SF games released after NG were 2I, A3 and 3S, and you can't tell me that NG had more decication than A3. Even characters like Karin and R.Mika have bios!
It's kinda an apples and oranges thing, I suppose. The new SFA3 characters got bios (all... 5 of them) but in terms of actual artworks produced for the game, NG got more. In general, they've gotten more art. Even supporting characters got actual artworks, unlike SFA3 (well, except for the powder puff Doll pic, which wasn't in SF Eternal. But that art piece isn't exactly the most high quality thing Capcom could have produced for the Dolls...).
Karin's bio isn't a big deal, either. Her creator had already made that bio for Sakura Ganbaru.
Anyways, once you get to the character section of Street Fighter Eternal, your average new generation character gets half a page of art, typically consisting of five different pictures of that character. In comparison, your average Double Impact or Third Strike gets one THIRD of a page of art consisting of only TWO pics of that character. Alpha 3 characters get one half of a page of art, too, but the actual number of pics per Alpha 3 exclusive character (all... five of them) is only 3 (and for Juni and Juli, it's two each). You can actually find new generation concept artworks scattered throughout the book, but the only Alpha 3 artworks in the book are cover artworks. And then what's really sad is that Third Strike doesn't even get those (what with Third Strike not being released to any consoles besides the DC). So, to reiterate, even if all five SFA3 exclusive characters got bios (including Cody), the amount of actual artworks done for SFA3 is practicall nill, compared to NG which has quite a few here and there (though no where near as much as the various SF2 games). Any one can draw up a bio. That's not too hard (though that does make it extremely sad that Capcom didn't bother to do that). But producing actual artworks takes a bit more effort.
Oh yea, to compare, SF2 characters (ALL SF2 characters, including E. Honda and such that didn't appear in an Alpha until SFA3) all have two FULL pages of artwork. Super Street Fighter 2 characters (including Akuma) get one full page of art. Then all alpha characters get half a page of art consisting of four pics for each. ...except Sakura, who gets a full page. Because she's Sakura.
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Sun 10 Aug 02:24] |
| Luisinan 393th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(3):" , posted Sun 10 Aug 03:05
quote:
First of all, I'd just like to point out that the characters in 3S do NOT play differently. In truth, they mostly play the same, as this semi-random poking/semi-grappler hybrid, thanks to the All Mighty Parry. That is all.
...
And for all that uniqueness, most of the new characters didn't really play all that new (just hybrids of older characters), or all that interesting, but that was as much the fault of the systems (parrying and being limited to only one super) as the characters.
Woah there! Woah there! I agree with your assertion that the parry system de-evolves the game into a poke-bait/hi-low guessing/throwing game. But you are so wrong on saying that all the characters play the same.
For example, you cannot play Necro, Remy, Makoto or Twelve with a generalized poking strategy. A good Necro player uses ground pokes to start a combo and uses the air drill to cause pressure. He has okay long distance pokes too and an okay hi-low ground game. But it's all about the ground poke-->combo.
Remy has a riskier set of combos (from jumpins or starting from his jumping fierce) but he has a better ground poking/pressure game. If Remy remains unpredictable, he can stay on the ground the whole time and win the match without using any combos (outside of SAs). The reason for this is because Remy has good priority on normals, decent hi-low attacks and his specials help him a lot in keeping the pressure on the ground and being reactive. His hi-low ground guessing game is better then Necros.
Makoto is just nasty. She can poke you to death but to play her effectively, you have to be willing to play a very risky, in-close, guessing game with her. Her guessing game is better then Remy's but she has to remain upclose to utilize it. While Remy can be upclose or a little out of reach-- but it's immensely better for Remy to be barely out of reach.
And as for Twelve, he's a long distance fighter with pokes and long distance pressure tactics. Its best for him to stay as far away as possible.
There are a lot of characters that rely on the poke--> combo gimmick. But if you think that's the way to win then your wrong. Or even just throwing all the time. Besides there are still a lot of differences. Not everyone can rush like Yun/Yang. Not everyone can be tricky like Akuma or Ibuki. And going for throws is not always the best strategy for everyone either. For example, Akuma has a tricky air game, Remy has a tricky ground game, and Ibuki has a tricky air and ground game but you CANNOT play Ibuki like Remy or Akuma. And you CANNOT play Remy like Akuma or vice versa. There are similar play styles-- but you can argue that every fighter has similar play styles.
Lastly, why does it matter if the game is full of 'freaks.' If a game is good, it's good. Sorry Toxico! But AOF3 had "normal" characters and look at what a horrible mess that was.
Bored? "160"
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| TiamatRoar 446th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(4):" , posted Sun 10 Aug 06:41
quote:
First of all, I'd just like to point out that the characters in 3S do NOT play differently. In truth, they mostly play the same, as this semi-random poking/semi-grappler hybrid, thanks to the All Mighty Parry. That is all.
...
And for all that uniqueness, most of the new characters didn't really play all that new (just hybrids of older characters), or all that interesting, but that was as much the fault of the systems (parrying and being limited to only one super) as the characters.
Woah there! Woah there! I agree with your assertion that the parry system de-evolves the game into a poke-bait/hi-low guessing/throwing game. But you are so wrong on saying that all the characters play the same.
For example, you cannot play Necro, Remy, Makoto or Twelve with a generalized poking strategy. A good Necro player uses ground pokes to start a combo and uses the air drill to cause pressure. He has okay long distance pokes too and an okay hi-low ground game. But it's all about the ground poke-->combo.
Remy has a riskier set of combos (from jumpins or starting from his jumping fierce) but he has a better ground poking/pressure game. If Remy remains unpredictable, he can stay on the ground the whole time and win the match without using any combos (outside of SAs). The reason for this is because Remy has good priority on normals, decent hi-low attacks and his specials help him a lot in keeping the pressure on the ground and being reactive. His hi-low ground guessing game is better then Necros.
Makoto is just nasty. She can poke you to death but to play her effectively, you have to be willing to play a very risky, in-close, guessing game with her. Her guessing game is better then Remy's but she has to remain upclose to utilize it. While Remy can be upclose or a little out of reach-- but it's immensely better for Remy to be barely out of reach.
And as for Twelve, he's a long distance fighter with pokes and long distance pressure tactics. Its best for him to stay as far away as possible.
...that sounds like an awful lot of poking, there ^^;
quote:
Lastly, why does it matter if the game is full of 'freaks.' If a game is good, it's good. Sorry Toxico! But AOF3 had "normal" characters and look at what a horrible mess that was.
Gameplay is overrated. It is in fact incredibly important to a fighting game, but to think it can carry the game by itself whether or not the character designs are good is flawed.
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/misc/file/street_fighter_plot.txt
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"Re(4):KOF 2k3 on MVS" 
"Re(4):SF3" 
