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| iggy 1404th Post
 
Red Carpet Executive Member
    
    
    
    
|  "Nobody played Chaos yet?"
, posted Sat 26 Jul 05:40
I need to see positive critics quickly, I'm really, really afraid... On 2CH, there are already 2 treads of more than 800 messages to say the game is crappy and makes CvS2 look great... I know it's 2CH, they tend to calm down after a while, but even KOF 2002 wasn't bashed like this when it came out... Please, please, tell me they are just capcom dorks and the game is actually good!
Oh, and on a side note...in 2CHgo, who the hell is "Fugo"? I really, really don't have a clue, the only suspect I have would be Earthquake (because of the "purple mist" he does sometimes), but...
オストリッチのようでヤンス！
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Replies:
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| Muchiko
111th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(1):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 07:18
quote:
I need to see positive critics quickly, I'm really, really afraid... On 2CH, there are already 2 treads of more than 800 messages to say the game is crappy and makes CvS2 look great... I know it's 2CH, they tend to calm down after a while, but even KOF 2002 wasn't bashed like this when it came out... Please, please, tell me they are just capcom dorks and the game is actually good!
Well, I am a KOF player and I do not like the game. Everything is great about the game (graphic/sound) except the gameplay. No variety in chars gameplay, most Capcom chars suck, Ground Step Cancel ruins the game, control sucks for down-up charge moves, etc.
But we'll have to wait and see for awhile before judging its actual gameplay. But still, no variety nevertheless.
If you don't care too much about the gameplay, then you'll probably love the game. I'll play it until KOF2003 is out. But I find the game boring at the moment mainly because most/all KOF characters played the same as 2002. And I find most CAP characters boring. Roster just suck for me.
Hmmm. Never know, I might like the game later on when all secret characters are unlocked.
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| Jazzie D 2065th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
| "Oh boy. Here we go." , posted Sat 26 Jul 09:15
quote:
I need to see positive critics quickly, I'm really, really afraid... On 2CH, there are already 2 treads of more than 800 messages to say the game is crappy and makes CvS2 look great... I know it's 2CH, they tend to calm down after a while, but even KOF 2002 wasn't bashed like this when it came out... Please, please, tell me they are just capcom dorks and the game is actually good!
Oh, and on a side note...in 2CHgo, who the hell is "Fugo"? I really, really don't have a clue, the only suspect I have would be Earthquake (because of the "purple mist" he does sometimes), but...
I'll just go straight to the point. No, the 2CH people are not Capcom otaku. They're right. The game is that bad. I couldn't stand every element of the game.
Fugo must be Hugo, but the person must have typed up the "F" by mistake instead of "H". I think. Yeah.
Takino Tomo-chan - Kimura-sensei why did you become a teacher?
Kimura-sensei - CUZ I LIKE HIGH SCHOOL GIRLS AND STUFF!
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| DarkZero
159th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(1):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 10:34
Isn't the game SUPPOSED to suck right now, though? I remember the old SvC roster threads and hardly any of us actually wanted to play the game until we saw Dan, Demitri, Goenitz, and Geese, and now Zero, Martian, Athena, and Red Arremer. Without those eight characters, the roster absolutely sucked, and most of us did not care for the game. And now the version of SvC that most people are playing is a version where all eight of those characters are unplayable.
What's being reviewed right now is the same "SvC: KOF vs. SF" game that we all hated, but the final version will be a game with a lot of new and/or great characters that will also let you play your favorite KOF and SF characters if you want. A review of the game without all of the secret characters unlocked is no different than all of those online reviews of the rough cut bootleg of The Hulk that said the special effects sucked.
... that wasn't a good example, was it?
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| OYashiroForever 353th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(2):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 11:46
quote:
Isn't the game SUPPOSED to suck right now, though? I remember the old SvC roster threads and hardly any of us actually wanted to play the game until we saw Dan, Demitri, Goenitz, and Geese, and now Zero, Martian, Athena, and Red Arremer. Without those eight characters, the roster absolutely sucked, and most of us did not care for the game. And now the version of SvC that most people are playing is a version where all eight of those characters are unplayable.
I can only speak for myself, but those final 8 characters being usable won't correct horrible gameplay (assuming that the VAST majority of people who've stepped up to talk about their experiences are right). No one is complaining about the roster in these reviews/impressions. They're complaining about how the game plays. Much more important.
It's a shame, really. I'm still very much interested in playing the game for myself, but the initial word has NOT been good.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| iggy 1410th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 11:58
quote:
I can only speak for myself, but those final 8 characters being usable won't correct horrible gameplay. They're complaining about how the game plays. Much more important.
Some people say that most of Capcom side sucks, including Tabasa, wich is a huge down. Then they say Ken's shinpuujinraikyaku is as powerfull as it was in Third Strike, which is another big down.
I saw very few talks about a particular character, except "Iori/Kim/Shiki own the game" or "Shiki moemoe" ; Guile seems really screwed with this down/up problem, the shoryuken seem hard to use, Balrog's Red Impact seems really great... I would be more particularly curious to hear how Dahlsim goes. I mean, it's a character that can entirely rely on his normal mooves, he can't possibly be screwed, unless they...
Oh crap. This is a 4 button game. Aguni, help us!
オストリッチのようでヤンス！
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| talbaineric 5307th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 12:25
quote:
I need to see positive critics quickly, I'm really, really afraid... On 2CH, there are already 2 treads of more than 800 messages to say the game is crappy and makes CvS2 look great... I know it's 2CH, they tend to calm down after a while, but even KOF 2002 wasn't bashed like this when it came out... Please, please, tell me they are just capcom dorks and the game is actually good!
Well, I am a KOF player and I do not like the game. Everything is great about the game (graphic/sound) except the gameplay. No variety in chars gameplay, most Capcom chars suck, Ground Step Cancel ruins the game, control sucks for down-up charge moves, etc.
But we'll have to wait and see for awhile before judging its actual gameplay. But still, no variety nevertheless.
If you don't care too much about the gameplay, then you'll probably love the game. I'll play it until KOF2003 is out. But I find the game boring at the moment mainly because most/all KOF characters played the same as 2002. And I find most CAP characters boring. Roster just suck for me.
Hmmm. Never know, I might like the game later on when all secret characters are unlocked.
Wow! Is the game really that bad guys? I'm gonna still try it,if it comes here,only to see Demitri(man,he looks so cool now),Genjuro,Tessa and Shiki.
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| TiamatRoar 422th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(2):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 12:48
quote:
Isn't the game SUPPOSED to suck right now, though? I remember the old SvC roster threads and hardly any of us actually wanted to play the game until we saw Dan, Demitri, Goenitz, and Geese, and now Zero, Martian, Athena, and Red Arremer. Without those eight characters, the roster absolutely sucked, and most of us did not care for the game. And now the version of SvC that most people are playing is a version where all eight of those characters are unplayable.
Well, Orochi Iori, Dark Ken, Shin Akuma, and Shin Mr. Karate are already too unbalanced to be playable, but no one cares about them (except a few people who care about Dark Ken). Which explains why you said eight characters instead of twelve, huh? :P
Athena seems too powerful. Her supers seem to have MvC2 coverage. This is expected of a secret last boss (especially a secret SNK last boss), but I'd be surprised if she were remotely balanced to be an actual player character. The same goes for Red Arremer. So those two are probably out, except on the home versions, and even then, playing as them would be the ultimate cheese, I imagine.
Zero (and thus his counterpart, the alien) have already been confirmed to be playable with a code (Beelzebubble saw some people input it and play as him but they dashed out before he could ask them about it). So at least those two are in.
Finally, Geese, Goenitz, Dan, and Demitri... does anyone know how unbalanced these guys are? Reports were that Dan is a monster and that he was extremely hard, so I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't playable, either. In fact, I'm expecting it. Playmore labelling them as "CPU characters" on the website instead of "Boss Characters" kinda implied that they were... well, just for the CPU. Not that it really proves anything 100%, but again, I can't really be very optimistic about it.
All characters will of course be playable on the home versions, most likely, though.
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| TheBeast 1485th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(1):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 12:57
quote:
I need to see positive critics quickly, I'm really, really afraid... On 2CH, there are already 2 treads of more than 800 messages to say the game is crappy and makes CvS2 look great... I know it's 2CH, they tend to calm down after a while, but even KOF 2002 wasn't bashed like this when it came out... Please, please, tell me they are just capcom dorks and the game is actually good!
Oh, and on a side note...in 2CHgo, who the hell is "Fugo"? I really, really don't have a clue, the only suspect I have would be Earthquake (because of the "purple mist" he does sometimes), but...
I've played. Yes it is pretty bad really.
I guess I wouldn't say much since mauch has been said. The gameplay itself isn't really that bad, but nothing interesting or innovative enough to wow the high demands and expectations of players. I mean, anyone who knows nothing about this game but has been playing very good KOF2002 can simply gets Kyo, Iori, Terry or Mai and just finish the game with the first try. Perhaps my arcade set it to pretty low level, but computer AI is pretty low, and Shin Akuma/Mr Karate is winning players because they have unlimited supers that they execute every time you try to make a close range light attack. VS mode doesn't seem much different from KOF either. Most characters that doesn't do "Fireball-Uppercut" are heavily under-utilised, but this is probably because it is only the first few days. There are also some glitches but I shall refrain from nit picking.
Everything else is good. Everything except gameplay. Overall very good concept that falls due to poor execution.
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| TiamatRoar 424th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(5):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 12:57:
quote:
Oh crap. This is a 4 button game. Aguni, help us!
I read of only ONE player coming up with this idea (the complaint was the Capcom character wasn't very effective in this game, and the conclusion was the medium punch/kick weren't there), and that's pretty sad.
In Iggi's case, regarding the quote, it wasn't a complaint so much as speculation. And it was speculation not so much as on the Capcom side on a whole, but on Dhalsim. For Dhalsim, it is VERY important that he has as much control over his normals as possible. If he can't control his normals well, his limbs will go right through people and/or leave him extremely wide open to attack. You certainly aren't going to win many matches with his yoga fire and yoga flame, that's for sure. It's all about the limbs, and in this case, Iggi's speculating that perhaps Dhalsim might be handicapped because he only has 4 buttons to control them with instead of 6, which I think is a very valid speculation (whether or not it's actually true is another matter, but I wouldn't be surprised).
Love the aguni reference >:)
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Sat 26 Jul 13:02] |
| makatiel
130th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(7):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 15:51
quote:
Buktooth on SRK has a pretty good post of his impressions. He is not impressed.
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36680
At least I will be have some tools available with Chun Li when facing the 138573854th Kyo/Iori player next time I go to Juarez.
the problem with his impressions is that they dont speak about the "gameplay" per se, but rather are directed at balance between characters. sure balance is always an issue, but just because ukyo and charlotte dominated SS2 didnt mean the gameplay was bad. the same is true of CvS2 and MvC2. taking out sentinel, cable, sagat, blanka, etc., wouldnt make the gameplay any better, though it might make the game more balanced.
that being said, i would love to hear true gameplay impressions. for example the controls feel sluggish, the game moves slowly, game is heavily combo based, priority of poking is too high, detection is fuzzy, etc. etc.
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| TiamatRoar 425th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(8):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 16:06:
quote:
Buktooth on SRK has a pretty good post of his impressions. He is not impressed.
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36680
At least I will be have some tools available with Chun Li when facing the 138573854th Kyo/Iori player next time I go to Juarez.
the problem with his impressions is that they dont speak about the "gameplay" per se, but rather are directed at balance between characters. sure balance is always an issue, but just because ukyo and charlotte dominated SS2 didnt mean the gameplay was bad. the same is true of CvS2 and MvC2. taking out sentinel, cable, sagat, blanka, etc., wouldnt make the gameplay any better, though it might make the game more balanced.
that being said, i would love to hear true gameplay impressions. for example the controls feel sluggish, the game moves slowly, game is heavily combo based, priority of poking is too high, detection is fuzzy, etc. etc.
A lot of them mention the difficulty of getting charge moves to come out.
Honestly, I wouldn't be too surprised if nothing really interesting about the game play turned up. Quite frankly because the gameplay engine... kinda doesn't have anything new. Talk about priority? Reach? Speed? Standard combos? Er... sounds really boring, if you ask me. Talk about new moves the characters have? There really aren't many. Talk about how the characters changed? Well, the majority of the KOF characters seem the same and there doesn't seem to really be anything that sticks out about the SNK versions of the Capcom characters. The only thing "new" in the engine is the guard cancel dash, and even that seems like a variation of parrying/alpha guarding. Other than that new feature that isn't very new and doesn't sound very fun, SvC seems to be filled with a whole lot of... well, old. The most interesting thing about the game now is the four new characters discovered, due to how #@$#ed up they are. Otherwise, a whole lot of it just feels so... rehashed.
Getting back to the main point, people don't seem to be talking about gameplay simply because there doesn't seem to be anything really interesting to talk about. Iori's priority owns everyone and someone's priority is a bit better than someone else's and that's about it.
...I suppose it's to be expected when the majority of the characters fall into the "balanced amount of speed, power, and defense" fireball dragon punch template.
In MvC2, you had things like exploring the flight paths of Sentinal and Storm, and the wave dashing of Magneto, etc. CvS2 originally had people exploring Kyosuke's air combos, Chang's moves with Choi, and Maki's crazy wall hopping, but... well, they all turned out to suck.
....so now we're reduced to microscopically anally analyzing things like priority once again. Sigh. I'm off to go look at more videos of that blobby Mars alien.
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Sat 26 Jul 16:10] |
| KTallguy
220th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(9):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 16:44
quote:
In MvC2, you had things like exploring the flight paths of Sentinal and Storm, and the wave dashing of Magneto, etc. CvS2 originally had people exploring Kyosuke's air combos, Chang's moves with Choi, and Maki's crazy wall hopping, but... well, they all turned out to suck.
Don't forget that MvC2 is the most unbalanced, glitched out fighter ever. How many characters do you see people pick in tournaments? About 6. Dashing and stuff is only fun until you realize that there are numerous traps and glitches that people will exploit to win.
CvS2 has the balance problem too. That's why I'm praying for a nice balanced 2D game to come and kill all this crap...
SvC has been getting bad reviews, but I want to play it first. People LOVE to judge things on the DAY it comes out. And they LOVE to say a game sucks because they don't AUTOMATICALLY own in it. So people need to suck it up and figure out how to play the game.
If people give it some time, but still find out that it's unbalanced and stupid, oh well...
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| TiamatRoar 426th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(10):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 17:14:
quote:
Don't forget that MvC2 is the most unbalanced, glitched out fighter ever. How many characters do you see people pick in tournaments? About 6. Dashing and stuff is only fun until you realize that there are numerous traps and glitches that people will exploit to win.
CvS2 has the balance problem too. That's why I'm praying for a nice balanced 2D game to come and kill all this crap...
SvC has been getting bad reviews, but I want to play it first. People LOVE to judge things on the DAY it comes out. And they LOVE to say a game sucks because they don't AUTOMATICALLY own in it. So people need to suck it up and figure out how to play the game.
If people give it some time, but still find out that it's unbalanced and stupid, oh well...
Actually, the general amount of characters used in MvC2 tournaments is more like 9 or so. Granted, EVERY team will have one of the big four (Magneto, Sentinal, Cable, and Storm), but when you take into account the various assists that people choose, the overall number expands to about 9 or so. Which is about the same amount as every other fighter out there. Of course, in MvC2, the power gap between the top tier and the bottom tier is quite a bit more pronounced, though.
Not that it's very relevant to my point, how balanced the game is. The question in general that I was trying to address is why no one is talking about the specifics of the gameplay in SvC, not how good or balanced a game is. And again, quite simply put, I believe the reason why no one is talking about the gameplay is because there isn't really anything interesting to talk about. Talking about priority by itself can bore people to tears. Talking about priority in combination with many other things like various strategies of characters, however, makes for a much more interesting discussion. You might talk about how people exploit traps and such, but traps and such can actually be fun to discuss and fun to figure out ways to get out of, unlike just talking about priority by itself (and there ARE ways to get out of them. That's why the big four doesn't include Strider with Doom).
So... anyways, back to the point, it's not that MvC2 is actually good or not. It's that it's a hell of a lot more interesting to discuss the gameplay to most people. SvC simply doesn't have enough nuances and aspects of gameplay to discuss, reducing people to a discussion about only priority and bread and butter combos. And people have been discussing THAT stuff since the original Street Fighter 2. Where's the rest of the beef that makes SvC stand out as a new game separate from the rest?
Oh yea. It's also a hell of a lot more fun to explore and come up with strategies for. SOMEONE had to invent the strider doom trap before people could exploit it, after all. SvC doesn't seem to leave much room for flexibility, which is to be expected since Playmore said it was going for a more simplistic style.
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Sat 26 Jul 17:20] |
| Makatiel
131th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 18:01
quote:
Not that it's very relevant to my point, how balanced the game is. The question in general that I was trying to address is why no one is talking about the specifics of the gameplay in SvC, not how good or balanced a game is. And again, quite simply put, I believe the reason why no one is talking about the gameplay is because there isn't really anything interesting to talk about. Talking about priority by itself can bore people to tears. Talking about priority in combination with many other things like various strategies of characters, however, makes for a much more interesting discussion. You might talk about how people exploit traps and such, but traps and such can actually be fun to discuss and fun to figure out ways to get out of, unlike just talking about priority by itself (and there ARE ways to get out of them. That's why the big four doesn't include Strider with Doom).
So... anyways, back to the point, it's not that MvC2 is actually good or not. It's that it's a hell of a lot more interesting to discuss the gameplay to most people. SvC simply doesn't have enough nuances and aspects of gameplay to discuss, reducing people to a discussion about only priority and bread and butter combos. And people have been discussing THAT stuff since the original Street Fighter 2. Where's the rest of the beef that makes SvC stand out as a new game separate from the rest?
no arguments here. i just think its silly to attempt to judge a game by its balance (as in this game "sucks" or this game is "awesome"). by that rationale, MvC2 and CvS2 would be two of the worst games ever created.
the truth of the matter is, if the controls are tight, the hit detection is tight, and there are enough options to play around with, its going to be a good, if not great game. i still play ssf2tx and we all know that game has nothing that could possibly be defined as new in it. yet, its still one of the best fighting games ever made.
im just skeptical of people who say "the gameplay sucks" when what they actually mean is that they have no grasp of balance yet. like i said, balance and gameplay are totally separate things and if people want to bash on the gameplay, they better talk gameplay and not just "shotos are overpowered."
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| KTallguy
221th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 18:02
You have a good point. Very very high level MvC2 tactics are probably interesting because of the nuances of the combos and the maneuvers (although I'm not a high level player). Watching combo videos and matches is pretty interesting, even though my interest in playing the game is pretty much non existant.
I guess most people aren't going to get to that level though, as most of the traps are too difficult to escape for a casual player.
If I'm brand new to a game, and I sit down against a guy who knows a simple blackheart trap, or picks gambit, hits me once, and flies off the screen, I'd probably never play that game again ... =P Even VF4 is more accessable then that.
All and all, I agree with you. Priorities are really the 'thing' in most 2D games, even in MvC2 to an extent, but the combination of the characters and assists add the variety.
Hmm... what is it going to take to get a NEW game ? Who's praying for SSZero to be good?
I think in order for games to really advance, we need to figure out a whole new fighting system. Scrap buttons, controllers, dragon punches. Scrap EVERYTHING. Lets find something new? =P
In the meantime I'll play Matrimelee and laugh as I smack the referee into the opponent. =)
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| TiamatRoar 426th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(3):Re(10):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sat 26 Jul 18:10
I always thought JoJo's Bizarre Adventure was a really good fighting game in terms of actual "newness" to the gameplay engine and character variety. It's too bad it was a licensed fighting game, because as a well-done fighting game franchise, maybe it could have really taken off. ...maybe.
I mean, cripes, the amount of stuff in that game that you can't find in any other fighting game, as well as the differences between each character, is obscene. Alexei, Mariah, Petshop, Iggi... the list goes on... they're so incredibly different from anything in any other fighting game as well as from each other.
...now I think I'm going off on a tangent.
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| pointystick 1046th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(1):virtua fighter is the answer you know" , posted Sat 26 Jul 19:32
quote:
personally, if youre looking for ground based fighting with real depth, you should go to vf. that game is the final answer to fighting games. theres something new and totally complex every release. too bad its 3d. i love the game, but it lacks the style that 2d games have.
but seriously, i think 2d games have come about as far as they can. after playing vf, i just think of 2d games as interesting (but shallow compared to vf) eye candy.
I shoulda been more specific, I wanted a 2D game with that kind of behavior. I guess what I really want is a KOF that takes more than a year to develop, with new sprites and things on a new piece of hardware. KOF is almost perfect for me, but the hardware is really showing its age and it constantly suffers from having such a short development schedule per game.
Don't get me wrong, VF is great, but I just lost interest after I went to Japan and saw even average ability players doing their thing. I just won't ever be able to put in the practice to be like that. Besides, I just like 2D art better.
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| OYashiroForever 355th Post
Silver Customer
| "<insert title here>" , posted Sat 26 Jul 21:22
quote:
the problem with his impressions is that they dont speak about the "gameplay" per se, but rather are directed at balance between characters. sure balance is always an issue, but just because ukyo and charlotte dominated SS2 didnt mean the gameplay was bad. the same is true of CvS2 and MvC2. taking out sentinel, cable, sagat, blanka, etc., wouldnt make the gameplay any better, though it might make the game more balanced.
that being said, i would love to hear true gameplay impressions. for example the controls feel sluggish, the game moves slowly, game is heavily combo based, priority of poking is too high, detection is fuzzy, etc. etc.
1) Buktooth's impressions had EVERYTHING to do with gameplay. He discussed specific character traits, control issues, the uses and abuses of new maneuvers, and his overall impression of how the game felt. Not once did he bitch about roster, graphics, or any of the other petty things fanboys like to whine about. Sure, he mentioned characters he thought were powerful. However, those were based on one days worth of play.
2) SS2 is an amazing game because of its purity of design and simplicity of play. MvC2 is an amazing game because it's the exact opposite: lightning-fast, complex to the Nth degree, and a garbled mess. My opinion of CvS2 is common knowledge by now and I'm frankly not looking to pick a fight.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| OYashiroForever 356th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(4):virtua fighter is the answer you know" , posted Sat 26 Jul 23:20
quote:
I think SS2 was mad boring. It was kind of like playing the first SS with slightly more characters, and I was like, "so what?"
Your opinion and you're entitled to it, but SS2 was a LOT more than just 1 with more characters.
quote:
I don't get this "priority" discussion at all. The way I see it, he hit you before you hit him. I've played enough to know you can hit each other, too. So I say, the other guy got lucky, or his character just hits faster. I don't think there's a "science" to who's going to hit who at what time when you're trying to hit him at what time. I just don't see it.
Uhh, yeah... there is. Every move in every game has properties (vulnerability box, hit box, invulnerable frames, vulnerable frames) that determine it's priority. For example, the shoryuken in the early SF2 games had incredible priority and made a great anti-air/wake-up because it had a long window of time in which it had a hit box but no vulnerability box. I could write a 6-pg. diatribe about this but it's 2:30 am so I'll save you all the trouble.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| Ultima 303th Post
Bronze Customer
| "GGXX is the answer" , posted Sat 26 Jul 23:59
> I think SS2 was mad boring. It was kind of like playing the first SS with slightly more characters, and I was like, "so what?"
*Shudders* Now that's a person who didn't play SS2 to any real degree. At first glance, SS2 seems like a refined SS1, and in many ways it is, but in that refinement is became a product that was WAAY better than the original. It's like comparing Super SF2 Turbo to the original SF2 really.
> I don't get this "priority" discussion at all. The way I see it, he hit you before you hit him. I've played enough to know you can hit each other, too. So I say, the other guy got lucky, or his character just hits faster. I don't think there's a "science" to who's going to hit who at what time when you're trying to hit him at what time. I just don't see it.
Priority is a simplified catch-all phrase that is used to describe how a move operates compared to other moves. It's not a matter of luck when Rose in Alpha 2 throws out 127564728 low strongs and beats 99% of the normal attacks thrown at her. It's not a matter of luck when Sagat uses standing or crouching fierce in CvS2 and beats 95% of the attacks his opponent sticks out, regardless of timing. It's a relative term, much like "hot" or "cold", that is used to relatively describe a move's various properties such as start up time, number of hitting frames, the size of the hit boxes on the hitting frames, the size of the vulnerability frames on the hit boxes, and the recovery time. It's not a matter of "who hit the button first" at all.
Anyway, concerning the intial reports on SvC, they do sound bad. From the instant I heard of the Front Step Cancel (hereafter referred to as FSC), combined with the knowledge of fully cancellable dashes, I thought it was something just waiting to be abused. I see that that has come to light. The only thing that can salvage it is if the FSC takes considerable meter to use (which I hear is true for the button FSC, but not the f,f tap version - this is bad), but even so, reports say it's very easy to build meter, so the game sounds like it could become like Alpha 2 - runaway, build up meter, then bait an attack so you can CC/FSC/AC it, repeat. If so, then it doesn't matter how imbalanced the cast is - balance is pretty overrated anyway - it's how the game plays regardless of who's involved. If it's just a block and FSC-fest, the game is going to go down the same route that games like A2 and CvS2 did. Which would be a total shame. However, it's still early, so there's still some hope.
I think for new 2D fighting game goodness, GGXX is the answer. I think it's truly the best combination of solid OG stuff and crazy new stuff out there. PLus the fact that the characters are very different to one another and they all almost play pretty well are huge plusses. The game is not for everyone, I know, as it IS can be bit on the crazy side, but I do think it's currently the best that's out there. And it's really strange, since I didn't (and still don't) give a flying rat's ass about GGX.
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MvC2 and CvS2 considered to be largely good and largely bad by most good players not due to imbalance, but to how those games play at high levels, plus their history. MvC2 had a good 16 month to two year wild of changes and playing - in the first 6 or 7 months it was something new that people were exploiting. Stuff like Wave-dashing and analying flight stuff didn't even come till much later - anyone remember stuff like Iceman is too cheap and Jill is the new Spiderman? And once people got past the sheer intermediate brokenness that is Cable (something I never accomplished myself, I'm sad to say), people found the game rewarding as well as exciting to play even at high levels, with a pretty large number of characters being used and considered useful.
Comapre this to CvS2, in which even before the final version was out, Blanka and Sagat were pegged as being extremely strong and very easy to play, something which only slightly changed as the game got older. It was also quite evident from the beginning that the game seemed slow, homogenous, and all the funky shit like Chang and Choi and Maki's running shit quickly turned out to be utter crap. After that, the only interesting thing in CvS2's history was the discovery of Roll-Cancels. But aside from that, with a few exceptions, CvS2 has the same Usual Suspects using almost the same boring tactics that they did 2 years ago. THAT is why CvS2 is largely considered to be poor by good players, not because of how badly Sagat beats Kyosuke.
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Ultima - The Right arm of Scrub Voltron
http://uramble.com/index.html - U's Rambling Page
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| Professor 1878th Post
MMCafe Owner
     
| "Some notes on the game's system" , posted Sun 27 Jul 00:12:
Here's three quick notes on the game's system. There will be comparisons to the KOF series, since the two series seems to run on a similar- if not same, engine.
1-
SvC basically plays like the KOF engine, but with the short hop and roll taken out. Yes, it feels similar to KOF98 Extra mode without a dodge and an ABC charge. If you think that's boring, you're together with a whole horde of the Japanese 2ch Bulletin's players. SvC is spared a bit since there's a RBFF style dash in the game, which comes to good use to play poke games towards the opponent. However, SNK Playmore may have tried too hard to compliment the dash system by allowing it to be used as a guard cancel.
2-
Due to a number of points, the guard cancel dash is a serious issue in SvC unlike guard cancel rolls in KOF. First, it only eats a small chunck of the power meter, and the meter builds up fast in SvC. Second and third are the most problematic-- the dash is fast, and the character only advances for a short distance unlike guard cancel roll. That allows for combos to be pounded on the opponent in many situations where guard cancel CD would normally be executed in a KOF title.
3-
Another point which is hurting the game's system is the difficulty in executing some charge moves. Back to forward charge moves seems to have no issues in the game and can be executed with ease and probably only about a second of charge. The same goes for down to up charge moves, but they tend to require a long charge time of about 3 or so seconds, making them rather difficult to execute during vital situations. The issues come with the supers. I have a feeling that the problem will fade away once someone figures out a consistant method of executing them, but for now, the supers which require a charge such as Guile's Sonic Wipeout, just doesn't come out.
Edit: Uho! Shiki in 2D is a dead ringer for MeltyBlood/Tsukihime's Ciel. Yaranaika?
[this message was edited by Professor on Sun 27 Jul 00:32] |
| iggy 1412th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(4):Re(10):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sun 27 Jul 02:15
quote:
I mean, cripes, the amount of stuff in that game that you can't find in any other fighting game, as well as the differences between each character, is obscene. Alexei, Mariah, Petshop, Iggi... the list goes on... they're so incredibly different from anything in any other fighting game as well as from each other.
For me, Jojo-miraihenoisan is the best fighting game Capcom did after Savior. I would love to see in a new game a character that wouldn't be Maria or Debo or Hol Horse but use their exact same fighting style... Especially Mariah, she was absolutely awesome. And gorgeous. The only problem is that Iggy really sucked...TT___TT
By the way, who is Alexei???
オストリッチのようでヤンス！
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| TiamatRoar 427th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):Nobody played Chaos yet?" , posted Sun 27 Jul 06:22
quote:
For me, Jojo-miraihenoisan is the best fighting game Capcom did after Savior. I would love to see in a new game a character that wouldn't be Maria or Debo or Hol Horse but use their exact same fighting style... Especially Mariah, she was absolutely awesome. And gorgeous. The only problem is that Iggy really sucked...TT___TT
By the way, who is Alexei???
*smacks forehead*
I meant Alessi. You know, pedophile coward that turns you into a kid? It's too bad that he's a bit too gimped (some characters, their gimmick is strong, for others, it didn't work out, I guess), but the whole kid thing and the fact that his attacks even change according to whether you're a kid or not is yet another feature unheard of in any other fighting game. Hell, his DASH AND RUN properties change when you're a kid or not (when you're not a kid, he can only run backward but dash forward. When his opponent is a kid, it's hte opposite and he can only run forward but dash backwards). ...and he turns Petshop into a friggin' EGG.
Hol Horse ownz. Cable has nothing on that guy when it comes to projectile attacks. He has an overhead projectile (that also sorta is an anti air projectile, albeit a horrible one in that regard), a controllable projectile, a from the ground distance attack, the standard straight projectile (that can also be done while ducking), a matrix unblockable projectile super, and a full screen projectile super. ...JJBA really knew how to go to the extremes with its character themes. I don't even have to say anything about Mariah for anyone who knows about her to be impressed with her style. And Devo pwns CvS2 Chang @ Choi, dammit. So... yea, again, in that way, it's too bad that it was a franchise fighter because that means no more sequels for the most part :(
Slightly getting back to the topic, after JJBA, even if it wasn't too balanced (though I do feel it might have actually had a chance to be/grow big on the fighting game scene if it wasn't a franchise fighter), so many casts in fighting games seem so... boring to me these days. So many characters just feel the same. ESPECIALLY in a game like SvC2 where it seems the most people can get into are things like priorities. There just doesn't seem to be much room for exploration in these simplified games where the majority of the characters don't have anything to really REALLY make them stand out from each other besides the miniscule differences (compared to something like JJBA or even MvC2. Good luck finding any similarity between Mags, Storm, Sent, and Cable besides that they're all top tier) in their normals and overly similar specials. Again, CvS2 had the chance, but it blew it by making all the really really different characters SUCK (with the possible exception of Rolento, but even his speed was toned down, and dammit, Rolento's speed is what makes him Rolento! Argh!).
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| OYashiroForever 361th Post
Silver Customer
| "Ignorance truly can be bliss" , posted Sun 27 Jul 14:18:
quote:
Your opinion and you're entitled to it, but SS2 was a LOT more than just 1 with more characters.
Uh-huh. That's about as convincing as saying throwing a brick through Granny Fanny's front porch window won't break the window.
I'd lay down a 5-page thesis on what made SS2 such a great game but, based on your previous "responses", it would obviously fall on deaf ears.
quote:
Did you remember to play the game, or do you make it a habit to turn your hobby into a science?
If you had to overanalyze the game like you just did right now, you just sucked out whatever it was that made playing the game worth it in the first place. That's not fun at all. Stop thinking in terms of "I'll get him because this has better priority" and start thingking in terms of "I'm hitting him with this."
What you obviously don't seem to understand is that there are many ways in which a game can be appreciated. If you're just "having fun": screwing around with your friends and never attempting to become more than just middling at a fighting game, then no, the things I just referred to wouldn't make much of a difference to you. That's all fine and good.
However, there are many folks out there who are interested in fighting games as a sweet science: analyzing the strategy-counter strategy game, move priorities, etc. In short, winning.
Analogy: Tennis is a game. You can have fun playing tennis just screwing around with your friends and just knowing the basic rules of the game. However, there are some people who live, eat, breathe, and die tennis and play it on a higher level because they know all the ins and outs of the game and have trained themselves (physically and mentally) to be the best there is.
Similarly, you can certainly have fun playing fighting games amongst friends by just knowing the basic rules. However, there's a group of people who strive to be the best and you have to have a far more in-depth knowledge of the workings of the game in order to be the best. These people have just as much, if not more, fun than those who just play for shits and giggles.
The difference? There isn't as much money in becoming incredibly good at fighting games.... YET. (Though people certainly can make a living on playing FPSs) In addition, tennis, like most sports, is still more socially acceptable.
I have no problem with people who only wish to have fun playing fighting games amongst their friends, not taking it too seriously. That's your prerogative. I do have a problem with people who don't see the value of getting serious and enjoying the game on a higher level and choose to belittle/badmouth those who do.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
[this message was edited by OYashiroForever on Sun 27 Jul 14:41] |
| OYashiroForever 361th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(2):Ignorance truly can be bliss" , posted Sun 27 Jul 18:37
quote:
Uh-huh. Why don't you apply some of those things you just said to yourself, and we can have a common ground on something.
You're going to need to be a whole lot more coherent and specific if you want to insult/debate with/argue with/converse with me because I have no idea what you are trying to imply here.
quote:
On paper the tier 1 character will always beat out on the tier 3 character. Yet it only works out on paper, and sometimes isn't true at all in execution. That's why people get all pissed when I beat them down with a low tier character. It has less to do with who overpowers who or who has more priority, and more to do with who is better with the character they're using at the time.
With paper, you can scare people. With paper, you can come up with all these figures and draw out theoretical turnouts of a perfect matchup. The one major thing the paper is missing is the PEOPLE factor.
I don't care who has priority over who, it's ultimately the person using the character that's going to be the deciding factor in a matchup.
What on earth does this have to do with what we were discussing? Yes, a great player using a low-tier character can beat a mediocre player using a top-tier character. He/she will have to work a LOT harder to win than if he had also used a top-tier character, but he can win. And?! The difference between the great player and the mediocre player is that the great player will have an intimate knowledge of ranges and priorities, can adapt at a moment's notice, and can think on their feet (among other traits).
If you'd like to have a serious discussion about this, that's fine, but you're going to have to present your argument a little more coherently.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| TiamatRoar 429th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(2):Ignorance truly can be bliss" , posted Sun 27 Jul 19:48:
quote:
Uh-huh. Why don't you apply some of those things you just said to yourself, and we can have a common ground on something.
On paper the tier 1 character will always beat out on the tier 3 character. Yet it only works out on paper, and sometimes isn't true at all in execution. That's why people get all pissed when I beat them down with a low tier character. It has less to do with who overpowers who or who has more priority, and more to do with who is better with the character they're using at the time.
With paper, you can scare people. With paper, you can come up with all these figures and draw out theoretical turnouts of a perfect matchup. The one major thing the paper is missing is the PEOPLE factor.
I don't care who has priority over who, it's ultimately the person using the character that's going to be the deciding factor in a matchup.
Priority: When two moves hit each other at the same time, the one with higher priority will win and the character executing the lower priority move will get hit while the higher priority character will not. This is best exemplified in Guy's medium punch in Alpha 2 VS Zangief's splash attack. No matter what time Zangief does his splash in his jump, be it early or late, so long as Guy punches Zangief before the Gief reaches Guy, Guy will ALWAYS knock him out of the air, even though his punch hit Zangief's splash belly. Priority is confirmed to exist as I believe Street Fighter bibles that hack the programming down to the hit boxes pixel for pixel also have priorities in them.
Tiers: The concept of tiers is that some characters have natural advantages over others. But just because a character is naturally advantaged does not mean a guaranteed win by any long shot. A good player vs a not-so-good player can easily overcome these advantages of tiers and win with a low tier character. Any idiot who knows anything about fighting game analysis knows that, so your assumption that people think that tiers are a guaranteed win is quite faulty and you are throwing an argument at no one. Even on paper, higher tier characters don't win all the time (exception: extremely lopsided match-ups like in MvC2 of Cable vs Zangief where if the Cable player has half a brain, even the best Zangief player won't ever get close to him. But those are rare cases).
[EDIT] At least, I believe the example was Guy's medium punch to Zangief's splash. Been a while since I played SFA2. Bleh.
[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Sun 27 Jul 19:54] |
| DarkZero
165th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):Ignorance truly can be bliss" , posted Sun 27 Jul 22:15
quote:
On paper the tier 1 character will always beat out on the tier 3 character. Yet it only works out on paper, and sometimes isn't true at all in execution. That's why people get all pissed when I beat them down with a low tier character. It has less to do with who overpowers who or who has more priority, and more to do with who is better with the character they're using at the time.
With paper, you can scare people. With paper, you can come up with all these figures and draw out theoretical turnouts of a perfect matchup. The one major thing the paper is missing is the PEOPLE factor.
Everyone respects the fact that skill is really the deciding factor in all but the most pathetically unbalanced fighting games. However, many people, myself included, would like to know the statistics of the game so they can know whether they're choosing to handicap themselves when they use a certain character or move. For instance, some of the characters in Mark of the Wolves are slightly unbalanced in comparison to the others. If you choose Griffin Mask, you're choosing a naturally weaker character than all of the others. You're handicapping yourself and you better be damn good with him if you're going to compete against characters like Gato and Terry the way the others do. It's just a good thing to know when you're choosing what character you're using. Similarly, if you choose Gato, you're making the game a bit easier on yourself, because some of Gato's moves (QCF+P and QCFx2+P) have ridiculous priority. This is why most players I've encountered, when they're cornered against a player that's just much, much better than they are, fall back on Gato. A moderately skilled player using Gato vs. a truly skilled player using Terry is just slightly more balanced than that moderately skilled player using Griffin Mask or Marco Rodriguez vs. that truly skilled Terry player.
No one believes that statistics determine the outcome of the match, but we try to integrate our knowledge of the game into our play to make it a bit more fun. If I play against someone in MotW that is way more skilled than I am, my knowledge of the game lets me choose whether I want to learn from them by getting my ass kicked with Freeman eighteen times in a row or if I want to make it competitive for both of us by choosing Gato and using his ground/anti-air game to even the match up a bit.
Also, things like priority and damage statistics help players determine how much the game is changed. Iori typically does not get three or four new moves in each new game that he appears in. He does, however, play and "feel" differently in some of his incarnations, mostly due to minute differences in damage, priority, and combos, which together invalidate old strategies and tactics while creating new ones. A lot of players that are dedicated to their favorite character, such as Kyo, Iori, Kim, Ryu, Chun Li, etc. want to hear how much their characters have changed in a new game that they haven't gotten to play yet. Priority and combos are mostly the ways in which they change, so that's what they want to know.
In short, knowledge is good. Knowledge is fun.
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| Ultima 306th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(3):Ignorance truly can be bliss" , posted Sun 27 Jul 22:25
[crap from Amakusa deleted]
> Priority: When two moves hit each other at the same time, the one with higher priority will win and the character executing the lower priority move will get hit while the higher priority character will not... Priority is confirmed to exist as I believe Street Fighter bibles that hack the programming down to the hit boxes pixel for pixel also have priorities in them.
Are you sure about this? Unless someone mentioned this while I wasn't looking, I thought it was confirmed that priority (outside of MUGEN) officially didn't exist - i.e., there is no actual numeric value assigned to any frame in a move that indicates how it reacts when another move strikes it. AFAIK, it still boils down to an average of factors, specifically:
1) Starting phase: How many frames of start up a move has before the actual hitting frames being.
2) HItting phase: The number of frames in a move that can actually hit.
3) Recovery phase: The number of frames a move takes after the hitting phase until the character returns to neutral state.
4) The size of the hit box during the hitting phase.
5) The size of the vulnerablity box during all frames.
Priority is a relative average of these values. Generally, greater values for factors 2 and 4 and lesser values for factors 1,3 and 5 will attribute to a move having high "priority" (i.e., the fewer the number of starting frames, the greater the number of hitting frames, the fewer the number of recovery frames, the bigger the size of the hit box during the hitting phase, and the smaller the vulnerability box during the entire move, the greater the overall priority of the move). We just refer to all of this as a move's "priority" because it's a lot simpler to desrcibe that all of what I just said. Last I checked, there is no actual priority value, though I could be wrong.
> Tiers: The concept of tiers is that some characters have natural advantages over others. But just because a character is naturally advantaged does not mean a guaranteed win by any long shot. [snip]
What most people seem to forget is character match-ups (which are used to create tiers) are considered to be played by players of EQUAL SKILL. A character match-up basically says "All other things being equal, character A wins 6-4 when matched up against character B (slight advantage for A), wins 8-2 against character C (huge advantage for A), goes 5-5 against character D (even match), etc". Obviously, differences in skill levels will create different results in all but the most ludicrous of match-ups (see: Blanka vs. Vega or Zangief vs. Bison in Hyper Fighting, two of the few truly legit 10-0 matches I know).
--
Ultima - The Right arm of Scrub Voltron
http://uramble.com/index.html - U's Rambling Page
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| TiamatRoar 429th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(4):Ignorance truly can be bliss" , posted Sun 27 Jul 23:02
quote:
[crap from Amakusa deleted]
Are you sure about this? Unless someone mentioned this while I wasn't looking, I thought it was confirmed that priority (outside of MUGEN) officially didn't exist - i.e., there is no actual numeric value assigned to any frame in a move that indicates how it reacts when another move strikes it. AFAIK, it still boils down to an average of factors, specifically:
1) Starting phase: How many frames of start up a move has before the actual hitting frames being.
2) HItting phase: The number of frames in a move that can actually hit.
3) Recovery phase: The number of frames a move takes after the hitting phase until the character returns to neutral state.
4) The size of the hit box during the hitting phase.
5) The size of the vulnerablity box during all frames.
Priority is a relative average of these values. Generally, greater values for factors 2 and 4 and lesser values for factors 1,3 and 5 will attribute to a move having high "priority" (i.e., the fewer the number of starting frames, the greater the number of hitting frames, the fewer the number of recovery frames, the bigger the size of the hit box during the hitting phase, and the smaller the vulnerability box during the entire move, the greater the overall priority of the move). We just refer to all of this as a move's "priority" because it's a lot simpler to desrcibe that all of what I just said. Last I checked, there is no actual priority value, though I could be wrong.
Er... I'm not sure? It's been a while since I've been able to look at them and someone mentioned them. Could have sworn priority was in there, though in this case, I think it was more what you stated than an actual pre-programmed number by itself.
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"Re(4):Oh boy. Here we go." 
