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| KTallguy
57th Post
 
Occasional Customer
  
|  "Re(6):New Ninja Gaiden"
, posted Sat 28 Jun 13:26
quote:
Do people hate Team Ninja because they're games look better and sell better than the other 'hardcore' dev groups? I still don't get it.
I don't hate Team Ninja because their games look better. I don't even hate them because they sell well. From a marketing and business standpoint, it's easy to see why this is so. Sex and graphics sell in today's market.
No, I hate Tomonobu Itagaki. He's snobbish, stuck up, and has no respect for other people in the industry. Reading most of these interviews shows how mindnumbingly idiotic he is.
http://www.gamepro.com/gamepro/famitsu/games/news/28015.shtml
Read about the reasoning behind two button gameplay -> http://www.gamepro.com/gamepro/famitsu/games/news/28398.shtml
This one's the worst ->
http://www.gamespy.com/previews/august01/doa3/
Now, it's fine to say.... "Tekken 4 is a piece of shit," or "VF4 is a very well-made game. The biggest problem is that it's old. They only were partially able to catch up with what DOA 2 was doing." The problem is, DOA3 is not comparable to these games. For those people who don't know, Team Ninja's DOA actually USES Virtua Fighter's engine, with a bunch of tweaks to make it look better. When's the last time you've heard of DOA being played on a competitive level?
All of his interviews claim that X-Box hardware makes it POSSIBLE for DOA to exist. Quotes like, "The number of polys per character is double of a competitor's game," says Itagaki, "I won't say which game, but you can see for yourself," make this guy a complete and utter asshole. He had no respect for the rest of the industry and on top of that, he is one of the people responsible for pushing the industry in the "graphics more important than gameplay" direction.
Now, I've played DOA, and I'm not saying it's a horrible shitty game. I even enjoy it a little for it's simplicity. But it's not comparable to any other competitive fighting game. The point of all of this is to show that Itagaki's vision for games is... "Wow them with pretty graphics and FMVs, and make the gameplay as simplistic as possible so that there's no learning curve (read: no depth)."
Now, if anyone thinks that this won't carry over to the Ninja Gaiden game, their sorely mistaken. It's gonna be simplistic, and they are going to add girls with boobs (see previously stated FMV) and ruin the story of the game. The shots and actual video of the game looks 'ok'. The FMVs are great, but who gives a shit.
Ok ... here's my suggestion to Ikatagi. Stop making games, and just make huge movies with girls and big breasts. That'll sell, and you'll make more money because you'll be able to fire the one or two people that code the gameplay.
FMVs are looking awesome, but that doesn't EVER correlate to good gameplay.
(sorry for the rant)
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| Grave 384th Post
Silver Customer
  
 
| "Re(7):New Ninja Gaiden" , posted Sat 28 Jun 13:35
I agree with you that Itagaki is insane, actually, insane to the point of amusing me. I can't take him seriously, so I enjoy it when he talks, heh heh. But I do have to question this:
quote:
For those people who don't know, Team Ninja's DOA actually USES Virtua Fighter's engine, with a bunch of tweaks to make it look better.
Now, I also believed that the first DOA was based on the VF2 engine, I know for certain that it ran on the same Model 2 hardware. But in interviews, Itagaki has denied this. He said the rumors that DOA used VF code were just that, rumors. And searching around to try to find the facts on the issue has turned up nothing.
Regardless, no, I don't think DOA3 can come close to holding a candle to VF4, but the issue of the DOA1 engine still baffles me.
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| Hungrywolf 2064th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
    
 
| "Re(10):New Ninja Gaiden" , posted Sat 28 Jun 14:19
quote:
Hagen: Yeah, unfortunately your're right. That reminds me, what ever happened to Foster anyways?
Dead. Killed by Clancy.
As for Team Ninja, I couldn't care one way or the other. I agree Itagaki is full of himself, but I don't have any particular dislike of him. I just hope they acknowledge the existence of the previous Ninja Gaidens. If Jaquio is in it, I'll be happy.
Agreed. Does anyone remember some Nintendo novels that came out based on certain games? It was when I was in elementary school and they had those bookfairs and stuff. I got some of them, but can't find them now. I know that there was a Castlevania one based on Castlevania II, and there was a Ninja Gaiden one, and I think there was a Master Blaster one, and some others. Anyway, I liked them as a kid, but don't really remember anything about them now, maybe they actually sucked. I was just wondering if anyone else had ever seen these. Just talking about Jaquio reminded me of the Ninja Gaiden book...
"You're good baby I'll give you that.....but me? I'm magic!"
-Bullseye Daredevil movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
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| Grave 386th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):New Ninja Gaiden" , posted Sat 28 Jun 14:49
quote:
Agreed. Does anyone remember some Nintendo novels that came out based on certain games? It was when I was in elementary school and they had those bookfairs and stuff. I got some of them, but can't find them now. I know that there was a Castlevania one based on Castlevania II, and there was a Ninja Gaiden one, and I think there was a Master Blaster one, and some others. Anyway, I liked them as a kid, but don't really remember anything about them now, maybe they actually sucked. I was just wondering if anyone else had ever seen these. Just talking about Jaquio reminded me of the Ninja Gaiden book...
Ha. My friends and I had read some of these in grade school... I forget exactly how the stories went, but weren't they about kids who somehow got transported into video game worlds? I had the CV2 one... I know a friend of mine definitely had the NG one, though I doubt he still does. I'd kill to be able to read one of those now, hehe, I can't imagine how painfully bad they'd read today.
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| Hungrywolf 2066th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Re(10):New Ninja Gaiden" , posted Sat 28 Jun 16:45
quote:
Agreed. Does anyone remember some Nintendo novels that came out based on certain games? It was when I was in elementary school and they had those bookfairs and stuff. I got some of them, but can't find them now. I know that there was a Castlevania one based on Castlevania II, and there was a Ninja Gaiden one, and I think there was a Master Blaster one, and some others. Anyway, I liked them as a kid, but don't really remember anything about them now, maybe they actually sucked. I was just wondering if anyone else had ever seen these. Just talking about Jaquio reminded me of the Ninja Gaiden book...
Ha. My friends and I had read some of these in grade school... I forget exactly how the stories went, but weren't they about kids who somehow got transported into video game worlds? I had the CV2 one... I know a friend of mine definitely had the NG one, though I doubt he still does. I'd kill to be able to read one of those now, hehe, I can't imagine how painfully bad they'd read today.
Actually, on the CV2 one was about a kid getting in the game. THe NG one was just about the game and the Master Blaster one, of course, was about the kid chasing his pet frog and then falling into the hole blah blah blah and becoming the Blaster Master.
"You're good baby I'll give you that.....but me? I'm magic!"
-Bullseye Daredevil movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
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| KTallguy
59th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(9):Re(10):New Ninja Gaiden" , posted Mon 30 Jun 08:50
Heheh, I guess I was stressed out when I made that post. It did come off as kind of whiny...
I just worry about the future of games once in a while, but I know there will always be those stellar developers out there, even Team Ninja might improve. Although they have plenty of fans, and they probably shouldn't change a thing, from a marketing standpoint =)
Anyway, I don't take it "seriously", but at the same time, the things he likes to say in his interviews DO matter, BECAUSE he is high up there. When the President calls 3 nations in the world the "Axis of Evil", people take it more seriously than if I was to call them that, right ?
Your position in the media's eye and in the political stratum is important in politics and the game industry. It's just rude to say the statements. I'm sure that Yu Susaki (spelling?) isn't offended particularly, but he probably shakes his head at him.
Again, it's not a matter of taking him seriously, it's just ... rude. He is ruining his 'face'.
But enough about this, sorry to start a flame war or whatever. =) I'll leave it at that.
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| israfel
36th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(9):Re(10):New Ninja Gaiden" , posted Tue 1 Jul 16:59
first off, some or all of what i say is probably going to be a little biased, because i do really hate team ninja.
quote:
So he needs clout as a game designer to make jokes? I'm not a game designer at all and I make jokes about games all the time. Guess I should stop not before the videogame cops come and take me away.
Hate is stupid to begin with. To hate someone for comments that he never meant to be taken seriously and were taken out of context to begin with... that's just silly.
Yu Susaki isn't at all offended by Itakgi's comments on VF4, so why should you be?
Thats not exactly what i was trying to say. I was saying that he shouldn't really joke around in interviews like that when tecmos not the biggest company and his name is not well known. Websites and message boards and such would take his sayings seriously (like "DOA maker says tekken and VF TOTALLY SUCK!!") But it doesn't really matter what i say, all he's doing is losing face.
And I personally am not offended by his comments, i still think he's just a deluded idiot, or someone who really wants attention.
Also, when i said people like DOA as just a fighting game, it seemed to me in the interviews that he ignored the sex appeal aspect of the games as if it didn't exist, which is something a lot of gamers (and Tecmo america's advertising department) would disagree with.
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| Grave 387th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Re(10):New Ninja Gaiden" , posted Tue 1 Jul 17:26
Yeah, it's kind of a tough situation. I mean, it's one thing to say a game sucks when you're in a high position, but when you're making games seen as the "competition", it tends to look kind of unprofessional. I'm not sure how I feel about that... but a few things.
quote:
I think Team Ninja makes fun games. They don't have to be as complex as VF4 as long as they're still fun for me... which VF4 isn't, btw. I love 1-2, liked 3... but VF4 just leaves me cold for some reason.
I think DOAX is a fun game, albeit pretty shallow in the volleyball gameplay, but the casino games are fun too. The relationship system annoyed me endlessly, but it's still a fun game when you get down to it. As much as I still prefer to play Super Spike V'Ball, I can make my own Andrew WK soundtrack for DOAX, and that's a plus, hehe.
As for the DOA fighting games... well, I liked DOA2, but I'm not sure how I feel about DOA3. I haven't played a lot of it, but it didn't click. And you know what? I agree with Itagaki. I think Tekken 4 does suck. It just seems ridiculous when you hear it from him. And as much as he may have enjoyed the previous Tekken games, it wouldn't be the first immature stab Tecmo made at them. Do you remember the old DOA2 for DC ads? There were words in the background of them, and at least one of them had "Tekken sucks" appearing in the background text. That kinda irked me.
As for VF, well, I didn't like VF1, dug VF2, was kinda indifferent toward VF3, and I love VF4. Weird. I don't feel that kind of complexity is necessary, no, but it makes the game an incredibly rewarding experience to play. That, and it has one of the best damn training modes ever. I actually learned a lot from it. And the game always pushes you to get better, so it doesn't really get old, that is, if you at least like it to begin with.
I don't know. I think this is a silly argument to begin with. The new NG doesn't have a lot to do with the old series... that said, neither does the new Shinobi, short of Joe Musashi being hidden in it. But the new NG has the same main character! So they're the same, right?
Sure, why not? Well, the thing is, NG actually had a developed plot, whereas Shinobi just had something cobbled together seemingly randomly for each game, as far as I could ever tell. That matters to some people... not to me. To me, the new NG just fails to look as interesting as even Shinobi did to me, and I would have preferred a new 2D platformer that'd knock my socks off, but I knew it'd never happen. And what we get may very well be a fun game... but I'm not getting my hopes up for something that'll make me want to put down my NG NES carts.
Look at it this way. If we weren't getting a new NG, people would be bitching just the same. Can't please everybody... and with gamers, it seems like you can never please anybody.
Oh, by the way, it's "Suzuki."
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| Mog
198th Post
Regular Customer
| "continuing the NG storyline" , posted Tue 1 Jul 18:18:
quote:
Probably because there has been a large amount of time inbetween Ninja Gaiden games (The last one with a story was on the NES).
It'd make it hard for most gamers to follow the story or entince new gamers if it was heavily tied in with the older games.
Maybe, but the eight year gap (going off of release dates) between the first two Metal Gear games and MGS didn't stop Hideo Kojima from linking their respective stories. It also didn't stop the game from becoming a worldwide success; even in countries that never saw an official release of the MSX versions of the first two. Granted, there will be a 12 year gap between the Ninja Gaiden games if it makes this release date, but given that the first 3 games could more or less stand on their own in regards to story, adding another part to the series shouldn't be all that hard.
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
It's not like all that many of the characters survived anyways.
End of Spoiler
Personally, I would be thrilled if they continued the story, or at the very least acknowledged the existence previous games in one way or another. If not, I'll still be happy if it plays well enough to live up to the name. Story’s nice and all, but the gameplay, in the end, is more important.
quote:
Look at it this way. If we weren't getting a new NG, people would be bitching just the same. Can't please everybody... and with gamers, it seems like you can never please anybody.
Nope. The ever present Capcom --><-- SNK debating is proof of this. I still say that videogames produce opinionated, crotchety old men (or women as the case may be) faster than anything else.
edit: Grammar
re-edit: last edit romoved my spoiler...
GameStop customer quote of the moment: "A friend of mine is a professional assassin so I'm sure I would be good at Hitman 2."
[this message was edited by Mog on Tue 1 Jul 18:33] |
| Grave 389th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(1):continuing the NG storyline" , posted Tue 1 Jul 18:31
quote:
Maybe, but the eight year gap (going off of release dates) between the first two Metal Gear games and MGS didn't stop Hideo Kojima from linking their respective stories. It also didn't stop the game from becoming a worldwide success; even in countries that never saw an official release of the MSX versions of the first two. Granted, there will be a 12 year gap between the Ninja Gaiden games (if it makes this release date), but given that the first 3 games could more or less stand on their own in regards to story, adding another part to the series shouldn't be all that hard.
Personally, I would be thrilled if they continued the story, or at the very least acknowledged the existence previous games in one way or another. If not, I'll still be happy if it plays well enough to live up to the name. Story?s nice and all, but the gameplay, in the end, is more important.
Damn! MG totally slipped my mind. But yes, Konami handled the situation excellently. There's still a lot of ignorance about the series, but the story summaries, and the actual plot of the game helped people get up to speed fast.
I hate to generalize about Team Ninja, but I feel like Ninja Gaiden, even if it followed the plot, wouldn't be half the class act that MGS was. I just can't see it having worked... I don't know why.
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| Satoshi_Miwa 2261th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):continuing the NG storyline" , posted Tue 1 Jul 19:09
quote:
Maybe, but the eight year gap (going off of release dates) between the first two Metal Gear games and MGS didn't stop Hideo Kojima from linking their respective stories. It also didn't stop the game from becoming a worldwide success; even in countries that never saw an official release of the MSX versions of the first two. Granted, there will be a 12 year gap between the Ninja Gaiden games if it makes this release date, but given that the first 3 games could more or less stand on their own in regards to story, adding another part to the series shouldn't be all that hard.
Personally, I would be thrilled if they continued the story, or at the very least acknowledged the existence previous games in one way or another. If not, I'll still be happy if it plays well enough to live up to the name. Story’s nice and all, but the gameplay, in the end, is more important.
Don't know how MGS slipped my mind there, and is a real good counter point to my argument. Especially since the summary included the second Metal Gear game for Famicom Disc system, a game that never came over to NA.....
And given that Ninja Gaiden fans have been calling for this for awhile, I don't expect this to be completly free from all ties from the past. I just expect them to be to the side....
Separated at Birth?
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| Mog
199th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):continuing the NG storyline" , posted Tue 1 Jul 19:11:
quote:
I hate to generalize about Team Ninja, but I feel like Ninja Gaiden, even if it followed the plot, wouldn't be half the class act that MGS was. I just can't see it having worked... I don't know why.
Well, there are a number of posibilities there. I'll argue that Metal Gear was a relatively easy game to translate into full 3D. Most of the changes made to the game were purely cosmetic (graphics, camera, voice-overs, etc...), but the core of the gameplay is almost identical.
Doing the same for Ninja Gaiden will be more difficult since they'll have to make some foundamental changes to the gameplay to get it to work in a 3D environment. However, if Castlevania can pull it off then I'm sure NG can too seeing as how close the gameplay between the two titles is. Another is that it's being done by a different team, and may not be able to capture the spirt of the previous games.
The main thing that worries me though are the delays. Originally it was suppose to be running off the DoA2 engine (forget whether it was going to be on the DC or PS2 though), and now look at it. Granted, the new engine looks nice and all, but I still worry.... Regardless, we should know soon enough, so I'll continue to hope for the best until given reason to think otherwise.
Actually, the comparison to Castlevana brings to mind a question I've been meaning to ask for awhile now. Does anyone know if Castlevania 1&3 and Ninja Gaiden 1&2 run off the same engine?
Edit:
quote:
Don't know how MGS slipped my mind there, and is a real good counter point to my argument. Especially since the summary included the second Metal Gear game for Famicom Disc system, a game that never came over to NA.....
Nah, don't worry about it. We all overlook things from time to time.
GameStop customer quote of the moment: "A friend of mine is a professional assassin so I'm sure I would be good at Hitman 2."
[this message was edited by Mog on Tue 1 Jul 19:14] |
| Grave 390th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(2):continuing the NG storyline" , posted Tue 1 Jul 19:21
quote:
Don't know how MGS slipped my mind there, and is a real good counter point to my argument. Especially since the summary included the second Metal Gear game for Famicom Disc system, a game that never came over to NA.....
Actually, I think MG2 may have reached more people if it was on the Fami disk system, but it wasn't. The original MG and MG2 were for MSX, which never saw NA release as a whole. The first MG got ported to the NES, and that's all we saw here..
And, well, before anyone mentions Snake's Revenge, I have no clue whose idea that was, but it's certainly NOT part of the storyline. Or a good game, even.
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| Grave 391th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(4):continuing the NG storyline" , posted Tue 1 Jul 20:03
quote:
Nope, it wasn't even licensed. Metal Gear:Solid Snake for the MSX is the "real" MG 2.
Yeah, thanks to the wonders of rom translations, I was happy to play it. I was hoping Konami would port MG1 and MG2 to GB after I played MGS Ghost Babel for GB Color. They would have fit perfectly if redone in a similar style, and now with GBA around, they could be even better, but it seems less than likely.
But then again, since they're remaking MGS for GameCube, you never know.
But how did Snake's Revenge happen, then? I don't believe it ever said "Metal Gear" on it, but if it was developed in the US under Konami's Ultra Games label (most likely only to get around Nintendo's limit on games per year)... An NES port of MG2 would have been likely impossible, but I'm not sure why anyone thought this was a good idea to produce. Bleh. I care not to think about it.
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| Satoshi_Miwa 2262th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):continuing the NG storyline" , posted Tue 1 Jul 20:24
quote:
Yeah, thanks to the wonders of rom translations, I was happy to play it. I was hoping Konami would port MG1 and MG2 to GB after I played MGS Ghost Babel for GB Color. They would have fit perfectly if redone in a similar style, and now with GBA around, they could be even better, but it seems less than likely.
But then again, since they're remaking MGS for GameCube, you never know.
But how did Snake's Revenge happen, then? I don't believe it ever said "Metal Gear" on it, but if it was developed in the US under Konami's Ultra Games label (most likely only to get around Nintendo's limit on games per year)... An NES port of MG2 would have been likely impossible, but I'm not sure why anyone thought this was a good idea to produce. Bleh. I care not to think about it.
Back in the NES days they probably thought an action game would sell better in the US, and produced it that way. It's one of the many weird things about the NES market way back then, and one of the reasons I'm glad the industry has evolved ( I doubt Konami would be able to get away with that today...).
As for MG and MG2? Well if Nintendo can slip Metroid in Metroid Prime I wonder if Konami can be convinced to slip in MG and MG2 to the MGS remake....
Separated at Birth?
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| Kitsune413
214th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(3):New Preview at Gamespot" , posted Tue 8 Jul 01:43:
I feel a need to reply to this. Alot of the points that were made through the entire thread. I know that isn't really usually done and doesn't go with etiquette, but eh, I've got something to say and I wasn't here for it.
quote:
Team Ninja's DOA actually USES Virtua Fighter's engine, with a bunch of tweaks to make it look better.
DOA1 was on the Model 2 Arcade Board. The code was there own and it was always there own. If making an arcade board is also the fundamental code for every game Naomi rocks it.
quote:
When's the last time you've heard of DOA being played on a competitive level?
I play DOA competively, I know alot of people who do. I think that dispels this myth entirely so can we please stop the, "Tekken is the deepest! Your game is shallow stfu noob!". We're all intelligent individuals here.
quote:
All of his interviews claim that X-Box hardware makes it POSSIBLE for DOA to exist.
Have you ever seen a ps2 game look as good as DOA3 or DOA X? There is a reason for that.
quote:
He had no respect for the rest of the industry and on top of that, he is one of the people responsible for pushing the industry in the "graphics more important than gameplay" direction.
He liked VF4 but he felt that it took a step backwards as far as environments and things went.
He liked the old tekken's but thinks that the development team for 4 is lazy. I personally hate Tekken 4. Tag was alot cooler.
He just sounds like a gamer to me.
He also attacks people who make ports to the xbox but don't use the extra power for anything.
So he's a gamer and a developer. Woe is the world.
And once again it feels like you're using another ps2 fanboy statement. The whole "Graphics more important than Gameplay" statement still feels like a fanboy defense for the ps2 because it doesn't look as good.
I remember vividly getting the first Ninja Gaidens on my NES when I was little and thinking about how badass the cutscenes were.
I really looked forward to Metal Gear Solid on the ps2. As it turns out, something can look good and play well. I'll be damned.
quote:
Now, I've played DOA, and I'm not saying it's a horrible shitty game. I even enjoy it a little for it's simplicity. But it's not comparable to any other competitive fighting game.
You know I play all the 3d fighters and DOA is my favorite out of all of them. Its comparable to them all. But thats hard to see. You know why? Its Different. If the other games had counters that were important to their gameplay like throws and strikes then it wouldn't be so hard to grasp. On the otherhand, DOA branches away from that. The style is different. But if you're arguing depth that can take a very long time and probably won't be resolved. It never is.
quote:
Now, if anyone thinks that this won't carry over to the Ninja Gaiden game, their sorely mistaken. It's gonna be simplistic, and they are going to add girls with boobs (see previously stated FMV) and ruin the story of the game.
Let me try and remember the original Ninja Gaiden's controls... Lets see. It had a jump button and a swing button and if you held up on the d-pad and hit the attack button you could use specials.
This time its a Tekken or VF fanboy defense. The idea of 'Deep' Controls vs. Simple ones. Last time I checked most 3d action platformers were simplistic. In fact, the New Ninja Gaiden's controls sound like they are alot more indepth than the last few action platformers I've played.
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Does anyone remember some Nintendo novels that came out based on certain games?
They were published illegally about several games and because of that they didn't last very long on the market. So they're pretty hard to find now.
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In VF they may be bouncy but it seems to be an indusrty trend toward what they say is "realism" though the actual female fighters seem to be far more like, well, fighters, than pinups.
What does it matter? I've never seen any videogame promote ugly girls as a feature.
quote:
I personally would prefer a continuation of the story. A stand alone title just makes it not seem like Ninja Gaiden to me, and makes Ryu not seem like the real Ryu.
Considering elements are going to be reminiscent of the older games, and the old games storyline basically ended I can't really see the distinction. They're just starting a new chapter.
They even mentioned Irene in Hayabusa's DOA1 intro. its not like they don't acknowledge her existance. She may even be in the game. I've kept up with the game very closely and I've only seen three or four out of twenty stages.
Its got Ryu, its got the old moves, and most likely it won't suck like the new Shinobi did. I think it'll be a good game.
[this message was edited by Kitsune413 on Tue 8 Jul 01:49] |
| DarkZero
137th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(4):New Preview at Gamespot" , posted Tue 8 Jul 03:11
quote:
I play DOA competively, I know alot of people who do. I think that dispels this myth entirely so can we please stop the, "Tekken is the deepest! Your game is shallow stfu noob!". We're all intelligent individuals here.
Your anecdote dispels nothing. Just because YOU play DOA competitively does not mean that it is played competitively as widely or as often as other fighting games such as KOF, Virtua Fighter 4, and Soul Calibur 2, which was the implication being made when he said that DOA3 is not played competitively. Also, no one told you to STFU, nor called you a noob. Intelligent individuals do not put words in the mouths of others to make an argument. They also rarely use an absurdly literal interpretation of someone else's argument to rebut them, such as assuming that when KTallguy said that DOA3 isn't played competitively, he meant that no one person in the history of mankind has ever played DOA3 competitively.
quote:
And once again it feels like you're using another ps2 fanboy statement. The whole "Graphics more important than Gameplay" statement still feels like a fanboy defense for the ps2 because it doesn't look as good.
We're talking about a game development team that made an extremely beautiful game with two button gameplay. Two buttons. It's as if two people sat down to have a conversation about whether a game needs to have awesome graphics to be enjoyable, someone jokingly said, "Yeah, because with all that graphics power, who needs gameplay? You could make a game with TWO BUTTONS and it'd still sell!" and Itagaki was eavesdropping. He's actually proven that you can sell a game almost entirely on beautiful graphics and the fan service that those graphics can convey. I can definitely see the Dragon Quest VII or "I think I'll get out my SNES and enjoy the Glory Days for awhile" type of gamer having a legitimate beef with that sort of game development strategy, especially when it might be applied to their favorite NES game series.
quote:
Its got Ryu, its got the old moves, and most likely it won't suck like the new Shinobi did. I think it'll be a good game.
I think this is where you and I, as well as possibly you and KTallGuy, are probably going separate ways. What was wrong with the new Shinobi? It had complex controls that were surprisingly fluid, the sort of difficulty level that I've always missed from the days of the NES, a passable plot, and did the best that it could to make itself look pretty on the PS2. It even stumbled onto the key to fun action game bosses, which sets it apart from all recent 3D and 2D action games besides Megaman Zero: The fans' favorite bosses are usually the little human ones that act like your character, not the giant Godzilla bosses that make you say "wow" for about a half second before you figure out their simple pattern and pummel them. The controls were also deep enough that bosses that were insanely difficult the first time you fought them could take you only five seconds to beat after you've finished Hard Mode, and with the exact same character with the same stats, no less.
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| Mosquiton 803th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
|  "let old stories die, and other old stories"
, posted Tue 8 Jul 07:46:
quote:
We're talking about a game development team that made an extremely beautiful game with two button gameplay. Two buttons. It's as if two people sat down to have a conversation about whether a game needs to have awesome graphics to be enjoyable, someone jokingly said, "Yeah, because with all that graphics power, who needs gameplay? You could make a game with TWO BUTTONS and it'd still sell!" and Itagaki was eavesdropping.
Guess how many buttons Kirby's Air Ride is going to use! GUESS!
ONE BUTTON!
Not that it blew my mind at E3 or anything, but the number of buttons means nothing. When you guys start your own development teams, and make something better, then I'll listen to you if you want to diss Team Ninja. Until then, give it a rest!
And for christ's sake, do you know why they're called Team Ninja? Because they developed the Ninja Gaiden series in the first place, you punks!
I also feel like I have to mention that I really dig DOA as a fighting game, that if you dis me you dis yourself, and that I agree that Shinobi has beautifully sharp mechanics. In fact, I think there may be some sprinkles of Kunoichi info in next months EGM... hmm.
But about the NG story... it's just not wise to dig up a story that's been lying dormant for over a decade and reanimate it, letting its rotting zombie-ass shamble around and terrorize people who weren't around to take in the original events. Or, like me, have just plain forgotten what happened in the first place. All I really remember is that Irene looked cute with short hair and Jaquio was a real dick.
Shinobi opted to start fresh, and IMO it has the best straight-action game stories I've seen in the while. Team Ninja is planning to give plenty of shout-outs to the old series, and Itagaki didn't say "I want the new Ninja Gaiden to be about fun, sex, and be playable with only two buttons by drunken frat boys." So why expect it to be shallow and flimsy?
Funny thing, about the drunken frat boys part... Peter Molyneaux mentioned that he'd like Fable, a game that everyone has a massive hard-on for, to be enjoyable by people who are drunk and playable in short stints. More of that terrible accessibility talk. Better start another topic for slamming Big Blue Box (they're the ones developing the game, for y'all who don't know).
*edited for fresh pine scent
*edited again out of some sick compulsion
/ / /
[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Tue 8 Jul 07:49] |
| KTallguy
108th Post
Regular Customer
| "I thought this was dead, but oh well =)" , posted Tue 8 Jul 10:35:
First off I am going to do my best to avoid starting flaming. I enjoy intelligent discussions, even (non-hateful) debates sometimes, but not flaming.
quote:
DOA1 was on the Model 2 Arcade Board. The code was there own and it was always there own. If making an arcade board is also the fundamental code for every game Naomi rocks it.
I've read a few articles that stated that the VF engine gave birth to the DOA engine, and that it was purchased from AM2. However my sources could be wrong, and I have nothing to back it up.
Edit: Ah, so I guess they coded on top of the Model 2, my mistake.
quote:
I play DOA competively, I know alot of people who do. I think that dispels this myth entirely so can we please stop the, "Tekken is the deepest! Your game is shallow stfu noob!". We're all intelligent individuals here.
Dark Zero basically said what I would have said. Furthermore, I don't consider people who play DOA noobs or whatever word you might have for them. Just because you play Tekken, or Soul Calibur, or VF, doesn't make you more or less intelligent. However, the world-wide "fighting game community", who are no better or worse than anyone, doesn’t embrace DOA as a competitive game. That's what I meant by that statement. You don't see tourneys in Japan with DOA as a headliner.
quote:
Have you ever seen a ps2 game look as good as DOA3 or DOA X? There is a reason for that.
Yes, processor power, hardware, makes the graphics of DOA possible. But the essence of the game itself, the parry counter system and the fighting engine, could easily be made on the PS2, GameCube, what have you. His very very PRO X-Box statements don't make him a bad person, and I don't hate the X-Box. But no producer in Japan makes statements like, "This game wouldn't be possible without the PS2, or GCN". Because it sounds shallow and stupid. It’s lowbrow, basically. And Microsoft is probably paying him to talk like that(I have no proof, just my opinion).
quote:
He liked VF4 but he felt that it took a step backwards as far as environments and things went.
He liked the old tekken's but thinks that the development team for 4 is lazy. I personally hate Tekken 4. Tag was alot cooler.
VF4 makes the environments the way they are because as a competitive fighting game, you don't want to give the other player a competitive advantage. So in DOA, if when the match starts, you're situated in front of a rock, and I can gain the upper hand by pushing you into that rock, that's a inherent disadvantage that's out of the hands of the player, but a direct fault of the game design. The environments of VF4 are strategic in two ways only, in the size of the ring, and in the wall's height or existence/breakability.
I agree that after playing Tekken 4 a lot, and enjoying it at first, that there are a lot of flaws in the system. One of them has to do with the environmental problems that makes for competitive disadvantages. Certain characters have the upper hand in the "Fight Club" stage, because they are more suited for slamming you against the wall, etc. That's why most reputable Tekken 4 tourneys have the stage permanently set to the final, area, a perfect square arena. Because it's fair.
So basically his statements aren’t founded in any reason. He doesn’t say why VF4’s backgrounds make the gameplay suffer, I’m sure when he says VF4 took a step backwards, he means that the step backwards was in graphics.
quote:
He just sounds like a gamer to me. So he's a gamer and a developer. Woe is the world.
He’s a gamer. He’s a developer. But that’s a high position. You and I can say whatever we want in this forum, and no one will give 2 shits about it. When he says something, it’s reported on gaming news websites. I’m not saying he doesn’t have the right to say it, because he does. But because of statements like these, he loses people’s respect.
Again, citing my first example. When Bush includes countries in an “Axis of Evil”, people hear about it, see it on TV, react to it. People form opinions based on what he says. I know for a fact that no one cares about who’s in MY Axis of Evil. Bush is an American, just like me, but he’s also President(unfortunately)! People watch him.
quote:
And once again it feels like you're using another ps2 fanboy statement. The whole "Graphics more important than Gameplay" statement still feels like a fanboy defense for the ps2 because it doesn't look as good.
It’s NOT a fanboy defense though. It’s about the entire industry. Let me give you an example.
FFX-2. Ok, suppose this game plays badly, which it might be considering what I’ve read about it’s story and gameplay. Square-Enix, in short of cash, has recycled it’s graphics from FFX with various enhancements, and dressed the female heroes in skimpy outfits. It’s gonna sell like hotcakes. I’ve visited several forums which have multiple threads arguing over which girl is hotter.
This is not a good thing. This is bad. Think about it. Lets say Square sells SO many of these that they cancel other franchises and concentrates on this series, with episodes where the heroines lose more and more clothing each time around. Imagine finally, that the game finally is playable with one hand, so that the gamer can solely concentrate on the graphics.
People are already putting out DOAX rip-offs. DOAX will probably spawn sequels. This is bad for the industry, for one reason. It enhances one element of the experience only, the graphics.
I dream of advances in the way we play and interact with games as the years go on. ‘Matrix’ technology may not be far off, when we hook our brains up so we can sense a game, be IN a game. However high selling games that put graphics over gameplay will push that trend, and people won’t want to take a chance on a new gaming experience, knowing that higher polygon counts on the curvature of Ayane’s breasts will rack up millions in sales. Why concentrate on something that doesn’t sell?
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I remember vividly getting the first Ninja Gaidens on my NES when I was little and thinking about how badass the cutscenes were.
Ninja Gaiden’s cutscenes were a unique way to show a game at that time. It was one of the first games to use that style of medium to tell a story. That’s why it was bad ass. It was new.
quote:
You know I play all the 3d fighters and DOA is my favorite out of all of them. Its comparable to them all. But thats hard to see. You know why? Its Different. If the other games had counters that were important to their gameplay like throws and strikes then it wouldn't be so hard to grasp. On the otherhand, DOA branches away from that. The style is different. But if you're arguing depth that can take a very long time and probably won't be resolved. It never is.
I don’t want to attempt to argue depth because it’s really a matter of ones opinion. However Tekken 4 and VF4 both have counters which are important to gameplay. However they are specific to each character and some characters don’t have counters. This leads to (gasp) unique characters in the way they play. DOA has unique characters, but each of them is fundamentally the same. In VF especially, each character has their distinct advantages and disadvantages. That’s why, when you play DOA, you can put it on random select to challenge your friends, when in VF, people typically pick one character and play them for years to master them. Basically, DOA’s characters are cookie cutter characters.
quote:
Let me try and remember the original Ninja Gaiden's controls... Lets see. It had a jump button and a swing button and if you held up on the d-pad and hit the attack button you could use specials.
This time its a Tekken or VF fanboy defense. The idea of 'Deep' Controls vs. Simple ones. Last time I checked most 3d action platformers were simplistic. In fact, the New Ninja Gaiden's controls sound like they are alot more indepth than the last few action platformers I've played.
What about games that are redefining the genre? What about games that have unique gameplay conventions? ‘kill.switch’ has special controls that allow for using cover to enhance gameplay, with AI that uses cover and acts intelligently. Shinobi added a combo system that was vital to understand and master in order to beat the bosses. Some of the “original ideas” that you see in games are just gimmicks to sell that game, but some of them live on, like Z-Targeting in the N64 Legend of Zelda. How many games have you seen/played that use a form of this targeting? A lot of them.
People dissed on Mario Sunshine because it wasn’t what Mario 64 was, a redefinition of the genre. Tomb Raider was a redefinition of the genre.
Now what’s the point ? Ninja Gaiden will sell zillions of copies. But will it’s gameplay be ‘advanced’? Probably not. Will that push the industry in a bad direction/hurt the industry as a whole? It might. If a game sells on simplistic gameplay, what’s going to stop companies from producing all their games with simplistic gameplay? Nothing. That’s the problem I have.
Edit: When I say simplistic gameplay, I don't necessarily mean the number of buttons. Just the nature of the game itself. Virtua Fighter is 3 buttons, but I still consider it more complicated than Tekken, which has 4(My opinion). It's really not the number of buttons, but it's how they are implemented in the game. DOAX lets you press 2 buttons to play volleyball. You don't even have to move the characters with the D-pad. You press one button if you want to return the ball, or another if you want to volley it to your teammate. That's it. However VF4's 3 buttons, while simple, can make up a huge arsenal of moves per character, and none of the moves (sans Akira and a few other rare moves), are extremely difficult to pull off. There's no crazy motions like Geese's raging storm (I suck at pulling this off).
quote:
I've never seen any videogame promote ugly girls as a feature.
That just shows how unfortunately biased our society is. And I agree, it would be stupid to do this, from a business standpoint. However it’s sad that at the ‘peak’ of our civilization, we still have to label certain people as ugly or beautiful. There’s no stopping superficiality. And I’m not immune to this either, so I’m not better or worse than anyone.
In conclusion, this is probably too long for most people to read. I’m bored at work, so I have time. However, think about the big picture. Sure, perhaps all these sales might not have a huge impact in the long run. But they might. Look what last summer’s “Spider-man” started. Now every Marvel character is making a trip to the big screen, for better or for worse.
Oh, and if Ninja Gaiden comes out, and it's good, I'll be glad. If it adds something new, I'll be glad. Given Team Ninja's track record, I'm just a little skeptical at this point.
[this message was edited by KTallguy on Tue 8 Jul 12:59] |
| DarkZero
138th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(1):let old stories die, and other old stor" , posted Tue 8 Jul 14:47
quote:
Guess how many buttons Kirby's Air Ride is going to use! GUESS!
ONE BUTTON!
This assumes that I think that Kirby's Air Ride will not absolutely suck. This assumption is wrong. I was indifferent toward Kirby's Air Ride until EGM revealed that it had extremely shallow single button gameplay which will pale in comparison to both F-Zero and Mario Kart. I'm assuming that it's some sort of game aimed at retarded children, because I don't see why a racing game would have to be more simplistic than Mario Kart. Little kids have always loved Mario Kart and they're great at it, too.
quote:
Not that it blew my mind at E3 or anything, but the number of buttons means nothing. When you guys start your own development teams, and make something better, then I'll listen to you if you want to diss Team Ninja. Until then, give it a rest!
Oh, come on. Have you ever wanted to tell a friend what you think about a movie and then stopped and thought to yourself, "Wait, I've never made a movie, so my opinion as a movie-goer for all of the years of my life is completely invalid!" or stopped short of telling someone what you thought of a music album because your opinion can't possibly compare to a professional musician's? I doubt that. The whole "If you've never made a game/movie/song/play/whatever, then your opinion is invalid," argument is something that people only apply to negative opinions that they don't like. I notice that your belief that the opinions of anyone but game developers is invalid didn't stop you from saying that you liked Shinobi two paragraphs below this.
quote:
Shinobi opted to start fresh, and IMO it has the best straight-action game stories I've seen in the while. Team Ninja is planning to give plenty of shout-outs to the old series, and Itagaki didn't say "I want the new Ninja Gaiden to be about fun, sex, and be playable with only two buttons by drunken frat boys." So why expect it to be shallow and flimsy?
One of the first screenshots for the game, which I believe came in the first pack of three or four screenshots when the game was announced, was an FMV shot of a female demon's curvaceous pseudo-naked ass. Almost all of the screenshots since then have been FMV shots and not in-game shots. Even worse, if you follow the weekly screenshot releases from all of the different game companies, you'll see that Konami, Capcom, and Nintendo hardly ever release FMV shots. They release in-game screenshots along with a little bit more information about the game's gameplay system.
So basically, they care more about their game's graphics than other game companies, they care less about the gameplay system than other game companies, and the screenshot that they considered to be one of the most relevant out of what they had so far was an FMV shot of a curvaceous female demon's naked ass. If advertising a 3D action game as if it were a sequential FMV adventure like a cheap port of Dragon's Lair for the 3DO doesn't say "shallow, flimsy gameplay", I don't know what does.
quote:
Funny thing, about the drunken frat boys part... Peter Molyneaux mentioned that he'd like Fable, a game that everyone has a massive hard-on for, to be enjoyable by people who are drunk and playable in short stints. More of that terrible accessibility talk. Better start another topic for slamming Big Blue Box (they're the ones developing the game, for y'all who don't know).
Again, this assumes that I like or respect Peter Molyneaux and that his opinion will sway me. These assumptions are wrong.
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| KTallguy
109th Post
Regular Customer
| "A female demon's curvaceous pseudo-naked ass" , posted Tue 8 Jul 14:52:
quote:
One of the first screenshots for the game, which I believe came in the first pack of three or four screenshots when the game was announced, was an FMV shot of a female demon's curvaceous pseudo-naked ass.
So basically, they care more about their game's graphics than other game companies, they care less about the gameplay system than other game companies, and the screenshot that they considered to be one of the most relevant out of what they had so far was an FMV shot of a curvaceous female demon's naked ass.
Dude, you made me laugh out loud at work with that whole curvaceous ass bit. That's funny. Someone make a movie out of this one!
Oh, and hopefully Fable can live up to all that hype. I know people that are buying an X-box because of that game, and if it blows, I'm gonna feel bad for my friends. Especially when Black and White was more about potty training a giant monkey than actually playing god. (now B&W2 looks interesting)
Edit: The offending ass
[this message was edited by KTallguy on Tue 8 Jul 15:02] |
| KTallguy
110th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):I thought this was dead, but oh well =)" , posted Tue 8 Jul 16:03
quote:
Does that mean that one of the few innovations that the NES Ninja Gaiden brought to the table didn't involve gameplay but the cosmetic graphics stunt of having cutscenes? It may have been one of the first to use cutscenes that extensively but it was still a flashy stunt that's not that far removed from some of the other graphic tricks Team Ninja has pulled with the DoA series.
It was unique in that other games didn't present their story in this fashion. Other games had a text scrawl which explained the story, and then off you went. This changed the way the story was told and the way the player connected with the character. It opened the way for more character development. After all, who wants to read text about what happens between missions, it's much more interesting and engaging to have cutscenes with the characters acting out the parts. It wasn't as "flashy" as, say, a higher polygon count, which doesn't make any fundamental changes to the game itself. The advent of cutscenes changed the way gamers interacted and understood a game, and paved the way for games to finally be considered art.
Oh, and I'm fine with a game selling on fanservice, as long as there is gameplay to back it up. If a game sells solely on fanservice, I'm disappointed in the consumer for buying crap with their favorite character tacked on.
On another note: Rid, where is your avatar from? I like it! Did you draw it?
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| Kitsune413
214th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Ara Ara." , posted Tue 8 Jul 16:19
quote:
Just because YOU play DOA competitively does not mean that it is played competitively as widely or as often as other fighting games such as KOF, Virtua Fighter 4, and Soul Calibur 2, which was the implication being made when he said that DOA3 is not played competitively.
but in the end thats semantics because whether literally or not the implication was that it is not played competitively, Which it is by alot of people. Whether or not visible to others like the tournaments thrown for VF and Tekken doesn't matter. Its unfortunate that there aren't DOA tournaments. But at the the same time the cheap stigma doesn't apply anyways.
quote:
We're talking about a game development team that made an extremely beautiful game with two button gameplay. Two buttons.
Its time to murder the guys who made virtua tennis.
Its a volleyball game. How much can you actually do? You do not need 30 buttons. You don't need four buttons. Thats over kill.
Not to mention you've just totally condemned every NES game ever created.
quote:
One of the first screenshots for the game, which I believe came in the first pack of three or four screenshots when the game was announced, was an FMV shot of a female demon's curvaceous pseudo-naked ass.
considering that the original E3 cg trailer was sent to IGN, IGN took high resolution captures of said CG and put them on their web service and other people used the same images I can't fathom where you got the idea that Tecmo, or Team Ninja, or Itagaki used them to show off their game.
The Screenshots that Tecmo let out were of Ryu, Ninja's, and a train yard.
The rest are IGN's doing.
quote:
First off I am going to do my best to avoid starting flaming. I enjoy intelligent discussions, even (non-hateful) debates sometimes, but not flaming.
And to make something clear. I wasn't trying to flame you. Obviously the word 'fanboy' came up alot. But rather than flaming you I was attacking the fanboy cliche's that you hear from everybody on the internet that they get out of a text book.
Most people who trash DOA haven't even played it. But they know what to say about it because they've been on a Tekken Message board once in their life. Thats the reason I don't often visit this message board. Considering that people here do seem very intelligent, I was pretty certain that there would be some well thought out logical replies to things.
but after a bit of time, it was just the same thing over and over again. with most people not even knowing what they were talking about.
But hey, if its on the ps2 its a good game, if Squaresoft or Nintendo made it its the best game ever made and don't buy the dreamcast because its just going to die and isn't sony, right?
Thats.. why I don't post here much. I just wanted something more intelligent and different.
quote:
I've read a few articles that stated that the VF engine gave birth to the DOA engine, and that it was purchased from AM2. However my sources could be wrong, and I have nothing to back it up.
AM2 was 'helpful' as far as the game went and provided the arcade hardware. But the coding was all Team Ninja's. Yu Suzuki and Itagaki seem to have a strange relationship.
quote:
Because it sounds shallow and stupid. It’s lowbrow, basically. And Microsoft is probably paying him to talk like that(I have no proof, just my opinion).
Before the Xbox ever came out Itagaki would talk alot about consoles power and how he was never satisfied and couldn't do all the things that he wanted to do with it.
It isn't so much that Microsoft pays them (they don't even have, Only on Xbox! Logo's on their games) its that he's always wanted the advancement of technology and things are finally getting close to the point to where he wants it.
And he's even mentioned that he isn't sure if he wants to release DOA4 on this generation of consoles.
I'd also like to mention that DOA2 hardcore wasn't just one of the best looking ps2 games at their systems launch (and the entirety of the first year of that consoles lifespan.) it also ran more polies than any other.
quote:
So basically his statements aren’t founded in any reason. He doesn’t say why VF4’s backgrounds make the gameplay suffer, I’m sure when he says VF4 took a step backwards, he means that the step backwards was in graphics.
He's also always talked about 3d games. Alot of his comments have to be about a 3d game being 2d. Its the truth as well, at the point of DOA2 it was a 'Real' 3d game. It had environments that actually mattered and that you needed to use or avoid to your advantage.
If Virtua Fighter has a square mat with nothing on it. Then its not 3d. Its a 2d game with edges. considering that side stepping rotates the camera there isn't alot of '3d' to that game.
Tekken was a 2d game! XD But now they're advancing.
I'd also point out that VF3's environments really didn't work to well for them. People are still trying to catch up to DOA2's.
quote:
I’m not saying he doesn’t have the right to say it, because he does. But because of statements like these, he loses people’s respect.
Why does it matter? Sure he's cocky. But at least he's a gamer with an opinion. Better that then a developer who doesn't care.
quote:
FFX-2. Ok, suppose this game plays badly, which it might be considering what I’ve read about it’s story and gameplay.
When has a final fantasy game ever played well?
You play annoying random battles to get to cutscenes and cg's. I guess Ten played better than the previous ones at least.
quote:
People are already putting out DOAX rip-offs. DOAX will probably spawn sequels. This is bad for the industry, for one reason. It enhances one element of the experience only, the graphics.
You know if you ever played DOA X its actually a fun game. Pointless, but that was the point in the first place. A game that wasn't trying to have a point. Its a pick up and play game with no obligations. its basically a peaceful GTA.
quote:
I dream of advances in the way we play and interact with games as the years go on.
Itagaki would agree with that. Though, he's more towards an advancement of everything.
Personally, I LIKE games with good graphics. The stigma has absolutely no purpose. In fact I think its the most idiotic thing i've ever heard.
Games should be artistic. We're all visual creatures. If you don't want a game that looks good, just one that plays well, go back the Atari. It had fun games and horrible graphics. Rock on.
Personally I want great gameplay, I want gameplay to evolve and get better. I want involving stories. and I want great looking graphics.
A focus on graphics without gameplay would be bad, but that isn't what DOA's about. You notice the graphics. the flash catches you.
But the games play great. Thats what matters in the end. Thats why I play them after the flash wears off.
quote:
Ninja Gaiden’s cutscenes were a unique way to show a game at that time. It was one of the first games to use that style of medium to tell a story. That’s why it was bad ass. It was new.
Graphics are huge. The first time I played Final Fantasy 6, or Chrono Trigger. I was in love. There have been tons of games that are beautiful but at the same time they played fantastic.
and, back in the day, it was easier to tell good games from bad. There was a time when you could spot a game with good graphics and you'd buy it and it would play well and it was nearly a sure thing. Because if it looked good that means the developers gave a damn.
quote:
I don’t want to attempt to argue depth because it’s really a matter of ones opinion. However Tekken 4 and VF4 both have counters which are important to gameplay. However they are specific to each character and some characters don’t have counters. This leads to (gasp) unique characters in the way they play. DOA has unique characters, but each of them is fundamentally the same. In VF especially, each character has their distinct advantages and disadvantages. That’s why, when you play DOA, you can put it on random select to challenge your friends, when in VF, people typically pick one character and play them for years to master them. Basically, DOA’s characters are cookie cutter characters.
Thats just a sign of inexperience. The difference between VF and DOA is when it defines the differences in characters.
Your right, Fundamentally, All DOA characters have the same abilities.
Its true if you're good at DOA you're going to be able to grab any character and do well with them because of these fundamental abilities.
However, in VF it seperates characters even when you're inexperienced. They're different on that level, so when you first start playing the characters you notice how different they are.
in DOA, the characters huge differences aren't evident until you're good with that character. Each of them have things that greatly set them apart just like VF Characters. But It learning those and using them effectively takes alot of time in DOA.
Since Its not played competitively largely though. *smirks* Very few people have gotten that far.
quote:
You don't even have to move the characters with the D-pad. You press one button if you want to return the ball, or another if you want to volley it to your teammate.
Have you played it? How long did it take you to win a match not moving and how did you manage that?
and how many more actions are there in volleyball? I'm lost. We used to play it in PE. I remember either knocking the ball back to the other side or knocking it to somebody else when we played it.DOA X isn't a fighting game. It doesn't need fighting game controls. Volleyball is a simple sport.
quote:
we still have to label certain people as ugly or beautiful. There’s no stopping superficiality. And I’m not immune to this either, so I’m not better or worse than anyone.
Yeah, but before we go off attacking the world because everybody is a visual creature. We see things through our eyes. Its always going to be our first impression and the way we live and until that changes I can't see any reason to change things.
Yes. Ugly characters don't sell. its a shame but if it makes you feel better Voldo got number one in a character poll in japan once.
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| KTallguy
114th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(1):Ara Ara." , posted Tue 8 Jul 16:58:
quote:
And to make something clear. I wasn't trying to flame you. Obviously the word 'fanboy' came up alot. But rather than flaming you I was attacking the fanboy cliche's that you hear from everybody on the internet that they get out of a text book.
=) I never was trying to accuse you of flaming, I was just saying that I'm being careful myself!
quote:
Most people who trash DOA haven't even played it. But they know what to say about it because they've been on a Tekken Message board once in their life. Thats the reason I don't often visit this message board. Considering that people here do seem very intelligent, I was pretty certain that there would be some well thought out logical replies to things.
I have played it, a lot, with my roommate, on his Xbox. It's not a bad game. I've used all of the characters as well, and beaten the game with most of them.
quote:
But hey, if its on the ps2 its a good game, if Squaresoft or Nintendo made it its the best game ever made and don't buy the dreamcast because its just going to die and isn't sony, right?
I was a huge Sega advocate until they were swollowed in the harware wars. I don't want to speak for the majority of the mmcafe board, but I try to remain impartial.
quote:
Before the Xbox ever came out Itagaki would talk alot about consoles power and how he was never satisfied and couldn't do all the things that he wanted to do with it.
It isn't so much that Microsoft pays them (they don't even have, Only on Xbox! Logo's on their games) its that he's always wanted the advancement of technology and things are finally getting close to the point to where he wants it.
I understand you somewhat. However it seems that all he "wanted to do with it" is create better graphics. When he talks about the "power of the Xbox", he seems like he's referring to the polygons it crunches. That's what I'm insinuating.
quote:
I'd also like to mention that DOA2 hardcore wasn't just one of the best looking ps2 games at their systems launch (and the entirety of the first year of that consoles lifespan.) it also ran more polies than any other.
So it ran more polys? That doesn't make it any better of a game. The Final Fantasy Movie was made up of beautiful CG, but the screenplay blew. Therefore no one watched it.
quote:
He's also always talked about 3d games. Alot of his comments have to be about a 3d game being 2d. Its the truth as well, at the point of DOA2 it was a 'Real' 3d game. It had environments that actually mattered and that you needed to use or avoid to your advantage.
If Virtua Fighter has a square mat with nothing on it. Then its not 3d. Its a 2d game with edges. considering that side stepping rotates the camera there isn't alot of '3d' to that game.
Aha! Now I can tell that you've never played VF4.
3D is essential and integral to VF4's gameplay. Dodging attacks is one of the key ways of playing the game. I won't go into depth here, because it will take too long. But dodging brings the game into 3D, as you can avoid linear attacks, but you can't avoid throws/circular strikes. And it's not like dodging in Tekken or DOA. It's real dodging that's quick, simple, and fixed to the gameplay. You simply can't play VF4 well unless you can dodge effectively.
Basically, VF4 brings the gameplay into 3D. DOA is cosmetically 3D. There's a big difference.
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Why does it matter? Sure he's cocky. But at least he's a gamer with an opinion. Better that then a developer who doesn't care.
It's not about being "cocky". It's about disrespect. Who cares if you're cocky? Can you back it up? Do respected companies like Namco, Capcom, Konami, Square say stuff about other companies, like they "suck" ? No. It's childish.
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When has a final fantasy game ever played well?
They (usually) have complex and rewarding battle systems that make up for the lack of interactivity elsewhere, as well as interesting character development systems and some minigames. And they usually have a story that is engaging.
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You know if you ever played DOA X its actually a fun game. Pointless, but that was the point in the first place. A game that wasn't trying to have a point. Its a pick up and play game with no obligations. its basically a peaceful GTA.
I'm not saying the game isn't fun. I wouldn't compare it to GTA. There are a lot of games that let you wander around, interact with characters, and do whatever you want. DOA is a casino game, a hopping game, and a simplistic vollyball game. But you can add your custom soundtrack!
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Itagaki would agree with that. Though, he's more towards an advancement of everything.
If he's trying to advance everything, why create a game that's based on pure fanservice? The "relationships", which could have made the game have some real substance, are not even fleshed out enough to have any meaning.
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Personally, I LIKE games with good graphics.
The stigma has absolutely no purpose. In fact I think its the most idiotic thing i've ever heard.
Games should be artistic. We're all visual creatures. If you don't want a game that looks good, just one that plays well, go back the Atari. It had fun games and horrible graphics. Rock on.
I love games with good graphics. But they have to have gameplay or they are just movies to me. Why can't I have both gameplay and graphics? Why should I go back to my Atari, when there are games with substance and style? Artistic? Try Unlimited Saga, which has a completely unique game system that I've never seen before, and beautiful watercolor graphics. That game has real substance.
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Personally I want great gameplay, I want gameplay to evolve and get better. I want involving stories. and I want great looking graphics.
Team Ninja is hopefully putting all of that stuff in Ninja Gaiden. But I'm afraid for the story and the gameplay.
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Graphics are huge. The first time I played Final Fantasy 6, or Chrono Trigger. I was in love. There have been tons of games that are beautiful but at the same time they played fantastic.
Agreed. I love Chrono Trigger. But I think the amount of gameplay in Chrono Trigger, with it's New Game + and multiple endings, is about a zillion times the amount of stuff in DOAX. And don't give me that "different pairings of volleyball partners" crap. That just leads to slightly different cutscenes.
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and, back in the day, it was easier to tell good games from bad. There was a time when you could spot a game with good graphics and you'd buy it and it would play well and it was nearly a sure thing. Because if it looked good that means the developers gave a damn.
Exactly. But now it's easy to make good graphics. Games with good gameplay now show that the developers give a damn. Anyone can hire a CGI artist now.
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in DOA, the characters huge differences aren't evident until you're good with that character. Each of them have things that greatly set them apart just like VF Characters. But It learning those and using them effectively takes alot of time in DOA.
Since Its not played competitively largely though. *smirks* Very few people have gotten that far.
The time it takes to master a character in DOA is a tiny fraction of the time it takes to master a character in Virtua Fighter. The funnest one was that drunken boxer, an obvious copy of Shun from VF, that would change stances and cavort back and forth as you mash the punch and kick buttons. It's designed so that flashy combos come out with little effort, so that there's no real practice or frustration in the game.
Give me a few huge fundamental difference between the characters in DOA. Their moves LOOK different... yes. But they are all really the same. They have the same properties. Some are slower or faster than others, and that's where the variety ends. I don't consider a character different from another character just because their throws look different, or they kick in a slightly different fashion. Every character in DOA can be played decently by mashing. When someone gets serious about DOA, someone who is mashing can basically pull off the same stuff that someone who is not mashing can. Every DOA character has a punch punch punch combo, it seems. The differences are cosmetic and minimal at best.
I know that you and your friends might be a little competitive when you play DOA, or practice a little in your spare time. But believe me, if DOA was made to be a competitive fighting game, OTHER people would have caught on by now, and there would be professional tournaments. Don't tell me it's because people have dismissed the game before playing it. You and I both know that that's total bullshit. Many many people in Japan bought DOA3. Why aren't there any tournaments? Hmmm....
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Have you played it? How long did it take you to win a match not moving and how did you manage that?
I've watched my friends play it. He physically has his other hand off the controller. He doesn't even break a sweat. The game is based simply on the timing of the button presses.
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Volleyball is a simple sport.
Beach Spikers and Virtua Tennis, both quality Sega Games, added strategic content. Beach Spikers had the girls hug eachother when they won a match, which was pretty nice.
You can't compare Sega's Beach Spikers to DOAX. People can be half awake and play DOAX. Beach Spikers is challenging and you really have to concentrate to do well. Eh, to each his own I guess.
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Yeah, but before we go off attacking the world because everybody is a visual creature. We see things through our eyes. Its always going to be our first impression and the way we live and until that changes I can't see any reason to change things.
I know that we are visual creatures. I'm not attacking anyone. I'm the same way.
However, I make every effort to hold that first impression until I am more educated about a person, or a game, or what have you. 'Don't judge a book by it's cover,' I believe is a good saying.
Oh, and I pretty much read DOA3 cover to cover.
[this message was edited by KTallguy on Tue 8 Jul 17:09] |
| Ammadeau 288th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(2):Ara Ara." , posted Tue 8 Jul 21:37
quote:
Aha! Now I can tell that you've never played VF4.
3D is essential and integral to VF4's gameplay. Dodging attacks is one of the key ways of playing the game. I won't go into depth here, because it will take too long. But dodging brings the game into 3D, as you can avoid linear attacks, but you can't avoid throws/circular strikes. And it's not like dodging in Tekken or DOA. It's real dodging that's quick, simple, and fixed to the gameplay. You simply can't play VF4 well unless you can dodge effectively.
Basically, VF4 brings the gameplay into 3D. DOA is cosmetically 3D. There's a big difference.
So this counts but realistic 3D enviroments don't? Real Bout series had dodging and that was 2D. I know it's not the same as VF4, but I fail to see how this makes the series 'true' 3D. You can dodge in DOA3 as well, not all the moves track.
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It's not about being "cocky". It's about disrespect. Who cares if you're cocky? Can you back it up? Do respected companies like Namco, Capcom, Konami, Square say stuff about other companies, like they "suck" ? No. It's childish.
Namco insulted DOA in a radio ad in Japan before Team Ninja said word one about Tekken.
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I'm not saying the game isn't fun. I wouldn't compare it to GTA. There are a lot of games that let you wander around, interact with characters, and do whatever you want. DOA is a casino game, a hopping game, and a simplistic vollyball game. But you can add your custom soundtrack!
Let's see.. you can control the power of your serves and passes, direct your spikes, direct your fakes, control your positioning in the air during spikes and fakes, control the position of your teammate... what more do you want from a volleyball game?
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If he's trying to advance everything, why create a game that's based on pure fanservice? The "relationships", which could have made the game have some real substance, are not even fleshed out enough to have any meaning.
DOAX from the start was created as a service to the fans of the DOA series... and you're surprised it has fanservice?
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Agreed. I love Chrono Trigger. But I think the amount of gameplay in Chrono Trigger, with it's New Game + and multiple endings, is about a zillion times the amount of stuff in DOAX. And don't give me that "different pairings of volleyball partners" crap. That just leads to slightly different cutscenes.
...have you actually played DOAX? Because I have no idea what you mean by 'slightly different cutscenes.' The pairings don't change them at all.
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The time it takes to master a character in DOA is a tiny fraction of the time it takes to master a character in Virtua Fighter. The funnest one was that drunken boxer, an obvious copy of Shun from VF,
So obvious that he's actually based on Jackie Chan's character in the Drunken Master series...
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Give me a few huge fundamental difference between the characters in DOA. Their moves LOOK different... yes. But they are all really the same. They have the same properties. Some are slower or faster than others, and that's where the variety ends. I don't consider a character different from another character just because their throws look different, or they kick in a slightly different fashion. Every character in DOA can be played decently by mashing. When someone gets serious about DOA, someone who is mashing can basically pull off the same stuff that someone who is not mashing can. Every DOA character has a punch punch punch combo, it seems. The differences are cosmetic and minimal at best.
Yes, they all have three different stances like Helena... oh wait, they don't.
VF characters take a longer time to master, but is that really a good thing? Should games require you to put in a great deal of time and effort before they start to become fun? I can't get anyone to play VF because it is so noob hostile they can't even begin to approach it without hours of training. It's just not worth it to some people.
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I know that you and your friends might be a little competitive when you play DOA, or practice a little in your spare time. But believe me, if DOA was made to be a competitive fighting game, OTHER people would have caught on by now, and there would be professional tournaments. Don't tell me it's because people have dismissed the game before playing it. You and I both know that that's total bullshit. Many many people in Japan bought DOA3. Why aren't there any tournaments? Hmmm....
Actually, DOA3 didn't sell all that well, though better than VF4:EVO, and it suffers from not having an arcade version, which are still very much alive in Japan.
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You can't compare Sega's Beach Spikers to DOAX. People can be half awake and play DOAX. Beach Spikers is challenging and you really have to concentrate to do well. Eh, to each his own I guess.
Beach Spikers is an easy game. You don't really have to focus on winning except the times when the game suddenly decides to change your control to your partner when you don't want it to.
Play DOAX against Hitomi and Helena with their AI on the highest setting and try to win without moving.
my latest random art
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| Kitsune413
216th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(1):You've made my day." , posted Tue 8 Jul 21:43
quote:
Oh, and I pretty much read DOA3 cover to cover.
I'm going to start right here. This is also where the flaming starts. I mistook you for someone intelligent but after reading your last post you've revealed yourself to be the same cliched fanboy I always encounter.
Stop thinking you know anything about DOA. You're just another pathetic fighting game fanboy who has listened to what everybody else on the internet has said.
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I was a huge Sega advocate until they were swollowed in the harware wars.
They haven't made a really good game since they've went multiplatform. So, eh.
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When he talks about the "power of the Xbox", he seems like he's referring to the polygons it crunches. That's what I'm insinuating.
I'm afraid you don't pay alot of attention. Extra polygons means more objects which means more gameplay. If you can throw one hundred tree's on a screen thats polygons. Thats also gameplay. You need to avoid each one.
Sloping ground, thats polies as well, and you can juggle down hill using it.
Gameplay has advanced and evolved with technology. Obviously now there are alot more things to do than there were back in the day. thats because consoles can do more. Enemies can be smarter and the options are increased.
While a gorgeous game and a good playing game can be two very different things. Graphical capability and Gameplay are also intrinsically linked.
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So it ran more polys? That doesn't make it any better of a game.
yeah well tons of people bought doa2 hardcore so the final fantasy anology doesn't really fly. More than that. Consider it played well and looked good that shows the developer cared. who would have thought.
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Aha! Now I can tell that you've never played VF4.
I can tell that you haven't played DOA. even more so. I've played Virtua Fighter alot. For a very long time now.
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Basically, VF4 brings the gameplay into 3D. DOA is cosmetically 3D. There's a big difference.
No. DOA3 is all 3d. The backgrounds are 3d. They matter. you manuever around them. you're not on a square mat.
VF's side stepping is an axis change more than anything. Does it give you an advantage in a fight? Yes. Does it really set the game apart from others? not really. It technically has the same effectiveness as counters in DOA.
Some people have embraced that more than others.
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Who cares if you're cocky? Can you back it up?
Yes. He makes good games. He said Tekken 4 was a piece of shit. It is. I'd rather play Tekken Tag. He said that VF4 was a step back technologically but he likes it. It is. It went back to VF2.
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They (usually) have complex and rewarding battle systems (final fantasy)
I've never found random battles anything but tedious. the rest I'd agree with.
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DOA is a casino game, a hopping game, and a simplistic vollyball game. But you can add your custom soundtrack!
you forgot a relationship simulator and a collection game. *laughs* (semantics)
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If he's trying to advance everything, why create a game that's based on pure fanservice?
For fun. That was the point. He stated it from the beginning. A fun game for the fans to relax. It was never supposed to be serious. It was never supposed to advance anything. Its just fun.
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I love games with good graphics. But they have to have gameplay or they are just movies to me. Why can't I have both gameplay and graphics?
That is EXACTLY my point. You shouldn't have to. Maybe you wouldn't have to if you played Team Ninja games. *smirks*
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Team Ninja is hopefully putting all of that stuff in Ninja Gaiden. But I'm afraid for the story and the gameplay.
Don't. Team Ninja games have always played well. DOA X played well. Simple? yes. Fun? yes. and an Action game doesn't need to be complex. Shinobi wasn't complex. Linking deaths together to get a cute little scene isn't incredibly in depth. More than that. It will be.
Story? They've spent a year on it. Not to mention team ninja is actually 'good' at stories. Unlike most other fighting games. If you want me to defend that I will. *grins*
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Agreed. I love Chrono Trigger. But I think the amount of gameplay in Chrono Trigger, with it's New Game + and multiple endings, is about a zillion times the amount of stuff in DOAX.
I never tried to say it did. I don't think DOA X tries to be that. DOA X is just a fun relaxing game. They aren't trying to compete with an ancient rpg. I remember one of the goals was to 'give gamers something to do until ninja gaiden'.
Which for people who don't cheat, and aren't insane over it, who just play it casually, it will be.
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Games with good gameplay now show that the developers give a damn. Anyone can hire a CGI artist now.
Team Ninja games look better than everybody elses games though and in these days where its easy to make graphics thats tougher. Not to mention the game plays well.
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The funnest one was that drunken boxer, an obvious copy of Shun from VF, that would change stances and cavort back and forth as you mash the punch and kick buttons. It's designed so that flashy combos come out with little effort, so that there's no real practice or frustration in the game.
If you think that Shun Di and Brad Wong are anything alike just because they share a style you're really more bigoted than I ever thought you were.
I've played both and the similarities are almost non-existant. Do you even have anything to support this comment other than the fact that they use the same style?
You do know that Virtua fighter didn't create Drunken boxing right?
Dead or Alive is designed so that the controls aren't in the way. Yes you can hit all the buttons and get counters.
You will also be countered very easily for it by any one with skill. You have to learn the combo's. You have to learn when it branches and when it changes.
You have to be able to pick the right move in the right situation and branch it out in the right way.
Otherwise you're very very open to be murdered by a good player.
These are the worse fanboy cliche's of all because not only have you proven that you think that Shun Di and Brad Wong fight anything similar (they don't. At all.) You also showed you have no knowledge of the DOA engine other than what you've heard.
Its sad.
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Give me a few huge fundamental difference between the characters in DOA. Their moves LOOK different... yes. But they are all really the same. They have the same properties. Some are slower or faster than others, and that's where the variety ends.
None of them have the same properties at all. Yes you can hit buttons and get combo's with all of them. Yes they can all counter. Yes they can all throw.
Thats why they're the same. But they're also all different.
Striking is different from the properties each characters have. Some have alot of knockback and slam you into objects, others have moves that cause alot of criticals and launch. Others still have striking movesets that are very confusing and hard to be countered (brad wongs if you're talented and don't mash. (You aren't and you do by the way.)) and then there are others that styles aren't confusing, but have lots of opportunity to slow and offset their rythm to throw off counters.
There are characters who are specialized with throwing, can throw people who have been launched, who are on the ground, or have longer specialized throws
and there are characters who have advanced counters with different commands and properties than basic commands.
once you learn your characters moveset, Learn the way he moves the levels he strikes and what his differences from the rest on you really are good with that character.
The only difference is that the command list never gets in your way.
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When someone gets serious about DOA, someone who is mashing can basically pull off the same stuff that someone who is not mashing can.
Yes the movelist doesn't stop you from doing something.
I've been training two people to play DOA lately. They've played dozens of matches so far and I haven't lost once to them. Not ever.
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Every DOA character has a punch punch punch combo, it seems. The differences are cosmetic and minimal at best.
Yes. Every DOA character can hit punch and get a combo. Have you got a point? This is just another cliche tekken fanboy line.
This is pathetic. Really. I thought you wanted to have an intelligent conversation and then you have to show your ignorance. Its insulting.
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know that you and your friends might be a little competitive when you play DOA, or practice a little in your spare time. But believe me, if DOA was made to be a competitive fighting game, OTHER people would have caught on by now, and there would be professional tournaments. Don't tell me it's because people have dismissed the game before playing it. You and I both know that that's total bullshit. Many many people in Japan bought DOA3. Why aren't there any tournaments? Hmmm....
No the reason is exactly that. The game has been dismissed before they play it by Tekken fans and Virtua fighter fans. Why? Because its DIFFERENT. Counters don't work in DOA like they do in Tekken or VF. They're one third of the gameplay and effect it differently than other games. The striking isn't hard to do because it shouldn't be because when you play you have to put all of your efforts into thinking where to strike and how to strike so you don't get ripped apart. and everytime you counter your risking being slaughtered by a character with a powerful throw.
Its a game of balances and checks and one that very very few people have ever come to understand and that even less people ever will because they go onto a message board and read the same pathetic half assed internet fanboy cliche's that you just spewed in your last post.
Its sad because the game really does play amazing well and differently than any other fighting game but very few people will ever notice because they're either going to be blinded by the beautiful graphics (can't get past the breasts) or by the jaded internet fanboys who tell them not to. (the bias)
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Beach Spikers and Virtua Tennis, both quality Sega Games, added strategic content. Beach Spikers had the girls hug eachother when they won a match, which was pretty nice
DOA X is very strategic. There are alot of elements you wouldn't find in a normal volleyball game. Different weights affects characters and so do different power levels. Everybody has different stats and acts a bit differently. Its actually a very interesting and witty game if you look at the system below it.
Anyways, label me what you will. If you want to continue this intelligently, then I will be very happy.
If you cannot, and are unable to do that for whatever reason, bias, what not. Then thats fine too.
I don't expect it of you.
I've left before to get away from fanboy cliche's. I don't expect things to change.
|
| Grave 411th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(2):You've made my day." , posted Tue 8 Jul 23:12
quote:
if I sound hostile, forgive me. this argument got old a long time ago.
Though, some people on the board get it I guess. *smiles*
Actually, I didn't respond simply because you sounded hostile. If someone doesn't like DOA, that's their own thing. You just came off as condescending and rude.
And for the record, I think it's crazy to imply that Sega hasn't made any good games since they've gone multiplatform.
But I don't think it's crazy to imply that DOAX is great as what it is: simple fun. It's not my favorite vball game (there's always Super Spike V'Ball), but lately I've been digging it out now and then because you can play a game or two to pass some time for simple amusement, and go back to whatever you're doing. For that I think it's worth the price of purchase. Especially with Andrew WK music. But anyway.
I'm not a fan of DOA3, and I'll admit willingly that I'm not very good at it, nor do I plan to learn to be. But the way this thread has gone, I have no will to argue depth or graphics or ANYTHING, because this has all gone insane.
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| KTallguy
118th Post
Regular Customer
| "..." , posted Wed 9 Jul 02:02:
quote:
Wow. All this because I wanted to know if Irene would be in the new Ninja Gaiden... Amazing.
Incredible that it's gotten this far huh? =)
Responding to Ammendeau:
I didn't know about the Namco ad, but if that happened, it's stupid too. All childish stuff like insulting another developer should stop.
When I said different cutscenes in DOA, I meant that the characters say different things to eachother, like/hate eachother more or less, depending on your main character and/or your teammate.
And VF4 can be very friendly but harsh at the same time. A few characters can be easily picked up, such as Jacky. However other characters are much more difficult. Some of the community is noob hostile but I'm not. It might be difficult to get into though, I can see that.
Responding back to Kitsune:
I'm just gonna take the statements one by one =)
I've played DOA, and I know that Shun and Brad play differently, I was just talking about the inherant fighting style. Shun Di was I believe the first instance of a drunken boxer in a 3D fighting game(I own Drunken Master, BTW). I know that their moves are different, and the way they play is different, but their fighting styles are similar.
I wish you didn't jump on me, and accuse me of never playing the game. I guess I could have worded it better, but I believe they ripped the design from Shun. That's what I was saying.
I have played DOA, and not for just five minutes. I actually don't go to forums and read stuff on how DOA sucks. I developed my own opinion after I played it for a while. I don't know if I can convince you with my posts, but it has been about a year since I played the game, so I may have errors here and there, as the game isn't so fresh in my mind.
I guess you and I disagree on polygons. When I say polygons, I mean actually enhancing the image with polygons. You can render one glorious tree with thousands of polygons, or you could have 100 trees displayed by an Atari system and they would look shitty, but you'd still have to dodge them.
I agree that graphics improve with gameplay. I wouldn't say intrinsically, but generally. There are games with good gameplay and poor graphics, and vice versa. But I understand your point.
Now, I don't know how much VF4 you've played compared to the older versions, and I'm not saying you have or haven't, just saying I don't know how long or how much. I started playing VF seriously on #4. I know that 3 had an evade button. However in VF4 the evade button is removed, and the dodging is mapped to the control stick. However the style of the dodging sets the game apart from others a lot. Tekken and Soul Calibur don't have dodging like Virtua Fighter. Dodging in these games is not as intrinsic and fluid. It's not even necessary in most 3D fighting games, and could be called a gimmick.
In VF4, the third dimension is part of gameplay. When you dodge an attack, swing around to the side, and strike, it's 3D. That's a vital part of the game. If you can't dodge in VF4, you'll lose to anyone who knows the game.
The problem with D0A3's 3D is that it's not balanced. When there are objects randomly scattered in the field, the game becomes unbalanced, because of reasons stated in my earlier posts. That's one reason it's not played competitively.
You're right. VF4 is in essence a square mat. The walls or lack thereof allow for strategies, but you're right. The environments aren't 3D in the sense of houses and rocks and trees. That makes it balanced. I'm not going to trip over/get knocked into a rock that's closer to me than you because the stage is like that. I guess DOA is 'more' 3D. But that makes it a worse game, in a competivive sense.
DOA's counter move is not the same as dodging. There are many different things to think about when dodging an attack in VF4, DOA counters are cut and dry, 'Hit the button, grab the attack and do damage' stuff. Sure there are chain counters; Helena has some I believe. Playing both DOA and VF4, I feel like I'm qualified to say that they're not the same. If you want to discuss the differences between the two I'm all for it =)
About DOAX, I think I'm taking it a little too seriously. It is a game for fanservice, and it is a non-serious game. In fact, this whole thing got too serious =) I guess because everyone argues that Team Ninja is pushing games with incredible gameplay, I just sit and wonder why I haven't played one from them yet.
My experience with DOAX is minimal, and I guess I should really sit down and play the game for an extended period of time before I start ranting about how simple it is. I admittantly have only seen it being played. I never did say up there that I actually played the game! =P Maybe I should, I'd probably enjoy it, for all my ranting.
I guess I'm turned off by the game inherently. Its marketing and its content cheapen the market. If Itagaki really has this high vision for games, why did he make a fanservice game?
I'm citing Nintendo because it's convenient. Does Miyamoto go out in public and say "I'm going to make games that push the limits of the industry in graphics and gameplay" to eager fanboys? No. He just puts out great games that sometimes revolutionize the industry. He didn't need to brag about stuff like that in interviews. (Although the last truly "revolutionary" game he did was Mario 64).
Now, besides having stellar graphics, what is 'innovative' about DOA? Counters aren't. They came out in VF2. I guess 3D stages with objects in them may be the primary innovation, but in my opinion, the gameplay suffers because of this.
You talk about DOA as if only some characters have certain attacks. From my experience, every character in the game has an attack that slams the person into the wall, every person has a launcher. I admit, there are some characters with chain throws, that's unique. There are characters with stances.
The combos branch, I know that. However it's a simplistic guessing game. Once you've played the game for a long time, you know the different outcomes to combos. It will branch one way or the other. You know what to expect. I know delayed combos, to throw off counters. These all exist in other games, as well as in DOA.
Ok, I'll talk about Akira in VF4 for instance. He has absolutely no combo strings. He's a quick striker with special chain throws and counters. Lion has very limited combo strings, he is better suited for tricky dodges and quick strikes, so he can stagger and juggle the opponent. Vanessa combines two stances that are completely different: one is a defensive stance with countering and lighter combos, the other is quick and dirty strikes. All three of these characters play completely differently in many many different respects. Being a Vanessa player, there is no way I could just choose Lion or Akira and do anything with them. They are a different style. However, I could pick characters in DOA at random and play them pretty much the same. They are different, but not THAT different.
Counters are too simple a concept to take up 1/3 of the gameplay of DOA. It's just too simple. Grab a punch, do some damage. Memorize the combos, see where they branch, grab the punch. It's limited. Delay will only do so much if you know it's coming. DOA is a fighting game primarily based on reaction time and instinct, not careful planning and mind games.
There are many more 'checks and balances' in VF than in DOA. I can say that with no doubt. There is much more to think about when playing VF. High level play in VF is celebrated because it takes effort and dedication.
I simply cannot believe that it's because people couldn't get beyond the "flash" that the game isn't played in tournaments. That's a stupid excuse. If the game was made for tournaments, then people would have them. If the game was meant to be played on a competitive level, then you'd see them. If you shrink the breasts on all the characters so there is no flash, this game would still not be played competitively. It's not balanced enough, and it's too simple to stand with other games in its class. Trust me, they have tournaments in Japan for lots of games, some that many of us have never heard of. They will never have one for DOA unless Itagaki really puts some effort into making his game play as well as it looks.
This is my opinion, and I'll stick to it until you can prove me wrong.
Anyway, it's really my fault for this whole thing because I started ranting about Itagaki. This wasn't really meant to get to this level, and I really am trying to avoid insulting you in any way. I am trying to be as forthcoming and honest with my opinions as possible.
I want to have an intelligent discussion, but you call me a liar and insult me for reading boards that spout cliches. I don't read those boards and I wouldn't waste my time doing so. I like THIS board too much =).
Anyway, it's nice to find someone who sticks to their guns. I almost wish that I could meet you, so that I could see you play DOA and play against you, and I mean that in the most non-sarchastic way possible. If you're right, and DOA is that good, then you should start tournaments. Get people aware. In the meantime, I'll be playing VF4. =P
[this message was edited by KTallguy on Wed 9 Jul 02:16] |
| Luisinan 377th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(1):..." , posted Wed 9 Jul 04:19
I joined the party, a little to late... whatever.
My opinion...
VF has deep gameplay. There are layers and layers of techniques and strategies. The characters are very unique and each play differently. The strategy is deep.
DOA has simpler gameplay. Like others have noted, the characters are too similar. The gameplay is too narrow (basic combo+counters+throws). Combos beat throws, counters beat combos, throws beat counters. It turns into a guessing game. I like the DOA series, but I don't treat it seriously. The game is shallow.
You guys should make a new thread discussing the depth of each game engine. I could write a long post on why I think 3S has a complex engine, but whatever.
To the people who like DOA and dislike VF, could you start a new thread with your specific arguments. I was not specific on why I think VF is deep. But frankly, I think my assessment of DOA is pretty good. I don't mind being proven otherwise on that though.
We can even discuss on what makes a 3D fighter truly 3D. For example, I see Project Justice as a true 3D game because the dodge allows you to escape frontal attacks but not lateral (horizontal) attacks. If you play KOF or CVS2, rolls allow you to pass through any attack except ducking attacks and throws- horizontal and vertical space are the same in a 2D game.
Bored? "160"
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| Mosquiton 806th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "at least I was right on about the story..." , posted Wed 9 Jul 06:42:
quote:
This assumes that I think that Kirby's Air Ride will not absolutely suck.
I fail to see how I assumed that. Just something to think about. Besides, how many buttons did the original Ninja Gaiden use? Hmm?
quote:
So basically, they care more about their game's graphics than other game companies, they care less about the gameplay system than other game companies, and the screenshot that they considered to be one of the most relevant out of what they had so far was an FMV shot of a curvaceous female demon's naked ass. If advertising a 3D action game as if it were a sequential FMV adventure like a cheap port of Dragon's Lair for the 3DO doesn't say "shallow, flimsy gameplay", I don't know what does.
That's a HUGE assumption for someone who's accusing me of making too many assumptions pal. Where the hell do you get off saying that?
By the way, that shot was just ripped from the trailer they showed at E3. Yeah, it's FMV, and no in-game shots have been released yet. But hey, same deal with Kunoichi. It's fairly common to keep in-game footage under wraps in its early stages. BTW, it's not up to the developers to create advertising campaigns anyway, traditionally. I guess the reason I bothered responding to you is that you obviously don't know your stuff.
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Again, this assumes that I like or respect Peter Molyneaux and that his opinion will sway me. These assumptions are wrong.
No, it doesn't. I was just giving you something to think about, which I guess was a bad idea. Lighten up man.
I didn't say your opinons aren't valid, either. Just that they're quite narrow-minded and whiny.
Well, that's enough posting in this thread for me. Too much gasoline on the floor. And sorry to be blatantly offensive, I rarely get P.O.ed on a message board, but you asked for it.
*edited to be -slightly- less inflammatory
/ / /
[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Wed 9 Jul 07:04] |
| KTallguy
120th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):..." , posted Wed 9 Jul 07:22:
quote:
We can even discuss on what makes a 3D fighter truly 3D. For example, I see Project Justice as a true 3D game because the dodge allows you to escape frontal attacks but not lateral (horizontal) attacks. If you play KOF or CVS2, rolls allow you to pass through any attack except ducking attacks and throws- horizontal and vertical space are the same in a 2D game.
Exactly! Same in Virtua Fighter. Spinning attacks are almost always not dodgeable. They're lateral attacks.
It just seems strange that people would be so blinded by the graphics that they won't take the game seriously enough to be played on a higher level.
Oh, and Mosquiton. I think what Dark Zero meant was that because they haven't released any gameplay information at all, and mostly only put out screenshots of FMV, it makes sense to say that they are focusing on graphics, and that gameplay will be minimal. It's not an assumption, it's an inferance.
Many different gaming companies let little things about the gameplay slip to the public during development, or allow media to play a 'test build' of the game before it hits the market.
In the movie industry, most movies are given a private screening to critics before they hit the theater. Certain films aren't given a screening, nothing tangable about them is revealed during development, and no one knows anything real about them when they hit theaters.
9 times out of 10, it's because the movie sucks so bad that they don't want to risk word getting out before it hits theaters. 1 times out of 10, it's 'The Matrix'.
Lets just hope 'Ninja Gaiden' is 'The One' =P
[this message was edited by KTallguy on Wed 9 Jul 07:24] |
| Mosquiton 810th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "I see you don't know your stuff either" , posted Wed 9 Jul 07:41:
quote:
Oh, and Mosquiton. I think what Dark Zero meant was that because they haven't released any gameplay information at all, and mostly only put out screenshots of FMV, it makes sense to say that they are focusing on graphics, and that gameplay will be minimal. It's not an assumption, it's an inferance.
It assumes that what's been released by the company Tecmo is indicative of the game's quality and focus. Impossible to say until we've actually played the game, isn't it?
The only thing it's indicative of is what someone at Tecmo, probably in the public relations department, felt like showing off at E3.
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Many different gaming companies let little things about the gameplay slip to the public during development, or allow media to play a 'test build' of the game before it hits the market.
Yes, I am aware of this fact. Might I suggest that you check the latest issue of Electonic Gaming Montly, where an editor gives his hands-on impressions from E3. Pretty favorable impressions, too.
Sorry to get bitchy here, but when you challenge me on something I suggest you do your homework.
Regardless, it never make sense to say anything based on a game's graphics, or what some PR department has released. Even if Itagaki put together that trailer himself, it's not an indicator for how a game plays. For instance, VF4 Evolution is a very good looking game while having such deep gameplay.
Wouldn't you say?
/ / /
[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Wed 9 Jul 07:49] |
| Kitsune413
219th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(4):You've made my day." , posted Wed 9 Jul 10:03
quote:
I know that their moves are different, and the way they play is different, but their fighting styles are similar. I wish you didn't jump on me, and accuse me of never playing the game. I guess I could have worded it better, but I believe they ripped the design from Shun. That's what I was saying.
Mmm.. you claimed i'd never played Virtua Fighter. Virtua Fighter 2 is probably still my favorite. Virtua Fighter 4's atmosphere is bleggghhghghghghgh. It depresses me. The music and the fall colors and the subdued characters and the everything. It just kinda brings me down to play it.
And the fact that they both use Drunken fighting is kinda a tip off that they're going to fight similar. Obviously the deceptive fighting style is the same for both games. Most characters in DOA have combo's that branch two heights at certain points to avoid being countered. However Brad can usually change from all three heights. It means that when you fight him if you're fighting against a good player who can remember all the paths (its really hard to do) then he's very hard to defend against.
Shun Di uses Turd Burgler Drunken Boxing. He does stuff like does hand stands and kicks with his legs that make you just kind of look at him funny. DOA's style is obviously more elegant, alot of that has to do with the graphical flare of the game, but I still think its a fairer representation of it. Shun's a cool old guy too. (his posters are in the wise mens kung fu shop! :D)
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I developed my own opinion after I played it for a while. I don't know if I can convince you with my posts, but it has been about a year since I played the game, so I may have errors here and there, as the game isn't so fresh in my mind.
The thing is that DOA is a very different game. Most people 'Don't' get that its different and go on this button mashing spiel like you did in a previous post. Lets just say that if you're a good player you don't lose to a button masher. There is too much depth too.
I think that me and my friends played DOA2 for a very long time before it ever 'clicked'. Lets just say there is alot more there than most people ever think if somebody wants to get into it? More than Virtua Fighter? probably not. But I'd say its a better game. Its alot closer than people think.
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I agree that graphics improve with gameplay. I wouldn't say intrinsically, but generally. There are games with good gameplay and poor graphics, and vice versa. But I understand your point.
Well look at games like Halo with so much 'natural cover' all of that affects gameplay. Improves it either. Its not graphics problem that games play badly. Thats a developer problem. Graphics and Gameplay should both improve greatly. There's no reason to cut either short.
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VF4 the evade button is removed, and the dodging is mapped to the control stick. However the style of the dodging sets the game apart from others a lot. Tekken and Soul Calibur don't have dodging like Virtua Fighter.
DOA doesn't have the VF4 sidestep either. You can sidestep, and against characters who attack in a straight line (Hayabusa) its very useful. However its not VF4's natural counter. Where as everybody can do it to get an edge on other guys.
On the other hand, DOA's counters are a universal thing (some are better than others at it) and ontop of that alot of them have special sidestep moves. All of which have different properties. In fact everybody's methods of getting around are pretty nuts. Some like some of the Ninja's aren't even side steps as much as they are launches over the opponent or just backflips across the screen. Or quick retreats where as others are more like a traditional sidestep.
In the end, VF's limited counters + Universal sidesteps is close to DOA's limited SideSteps and Universal counters. Its just an opposite focus.
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The problem with D0A3's 3D is that it's not balanced. When there are objects randomly scattered in the field, the game becomes unbalanced, because of reasons stated in my earlier posts. That's one reason it's not played competitively.
Actually you said that before and I don't agree with it at all. First of all, if you start out with an obstacle you don't want to be around you, move. They give you a second where you can move but can't attack. Use that second to get out of the way.
Two, everybody can use the environment. Yes some characters have more natural knockback to supplement their styles. However, those people tend to be more predictable and straight forward with there attacks. I.E. Its harder to land those knock back blows.
Knock them back, make them think you're helpless against a wall and wall throw them. Whatever.
I really think its not played competitively because of the different combat engine and the fact that most people were into Virtua Fighter and Tekken. And DOA has a stigma against it from those two tribes of people. If it were easier to Catch onto like those two then it would compete more.
But Mortal Kombat Deadly alliance doesn't have a stigma like DOA does and that game plays like shit.
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I'm not going to trip over/get knocked into a rock that's closer to me than you because the stage is like that.
That is less depth though. Its also more boring. So its really a silly thing to argue. in DOA you have to worry about the environment. Thats just something you have to do. That doesn't unbalance things. It just means if you're playing somebody thats not Ein or Zack that you need to learn to play so that you're not always blown into walls.
Its a skill thing. kind of like how people in VF are harder to play than others.
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Sure there are chain counters; Helena has some I believe. Playing both DOA and VF4, I feel like I'm qualified to say that they're not the same. If you want to discuss the differences between the two I'm all for it =)
Helena has the worst counters in the game. They're the most basic. The only cool counter she's got is one near a wall. I think its a high kick counter with her back to the wall. She'll make you hurt more.
Counters aren't cut and dry. Leifang has parries that put you behind people, Hayabusa has the Izuna Drop Parry (you know you've seen it.) Gen Fu has parries that give him frame advantages, Bayman has advanced counters that are hard to pull off but they hurt like a bitch. Bass has combo counter's, Leifang has a combo for everything and its mother, Parries, Advanced Counters, Wall counters. She has a normal kick counter that does no damage but turns you around. Hayate's mid kick counter launches you in the air letting you come down for a juggle. Some counters have knockback (Gen Fu's mid counters, Ein's high and low counters. various Jann counters) give juggle opportunities change positions take advantage of the environment blahblahityblah.
In other words. If you think the counters are all the same you're not paying attention to the game. Yes Virtua Fighter and DOA are very different. I never came here to bash VF. I just said its pretty much a 2d game with an axis change that moves edges. Kof has sidesteps.
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About DOAX, I think I'm taking it a little too seriously. It is a game for fanservice, and it is a non-serious game. In fact, this whole thing got too serious =) I guess because everyone argues that Team Ninja is pushing games with incredible gameplay, I just sit and wonder why I haven't played one from them yet.
You have. DOA is incredibly deep. And even if you don't notice that. You probably noticed it was fun to play.
and yeah, DOA X is pushing the industry in the fact that its a totally unique game with no other games like it. There isn't, "A pointless enjoyment" section at the Gamestop I work in.
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I guess I'm turned off by the game inherently. Its marketing and its content cheapen the market. If Itagaki really has this high vision for games, why did he make a fanservice game?
Obviously everybody notices the girls of Dead or Alive. I play the guys in the fighting game. I'm good with alot of the girls. But they're not my favorites. But everybody notices the girls. Lots of fans like the costumes you can put them in etc. etc.
His reason was because Fighting games are serious. They're not really relaxing. They're competitive too. DOA X is just a relaxing game where you can dress the girls up and oogle them. Lots of fans wanted to do that.
The truth of the matter is that everybody but real fans of the game that I know hate it. Even people who just like it for the girls. Because its so limited. but people who love the game love it. Anyways. It was never to be serious. Its not supposed to have incredibly deep gameplay. Its supposed to be fun to play.
It is by the way.
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Does Miyamoto go out in public and say "I'm going to make games that push the limits of the industry in graphics and gameplay" to eager fanboys?
Why not? If you can back it up. In my opinion Team Ninja hasn't made a bad game yet. Sure they've only made four. but they were all good.
quote:
Now, besides having stellar graphics, what is 'innovative' about DOA? Counters aren't. They came out in VF2. I guess 3D stages with objects in them may be the primary innovation, but in my opinion, the gameplay suffers because of this.
DOA's gameplay. That Rock Paper Scissors things. The checks and balances. The way that it constantly makes you rethink and constantly has you thinking so you don't get smashed. The fact that Counters aren't an add on. Counters in DOA are different because everybody can do them. They become part of the gameplay. Not an add on that some characters may use. Something that everybody can do. Maybe some people do it better than others, but thats to keep things interesting. They're all balanced.
and yes, the backgrounds as well. They're not unbalancing. Everybody has a way to use the environments to their advantage. Everybody. Starting position isn't that dangerous since you have that moment to reposition.
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You talk about DOA as if only some characters have certain attacks. From my experience, every character in the game has an attack that slams the person into the wall, every person has a launcher. I admit, there are some characters with chain throws, that's unique. There are characters with stances.
Its the way of their styles. not their attacks. Ein is going to knock you back with almost every move he does. He's powerful and does that. Hayate has more critical's and is the most likely to launch you into the air when he's fighting and take advantage of you while you're falling. Helena has so many strings that you can wait before continuing that she's the best at just pausing and throwing your counters off. Or hitting free and throwing you while you counter. Its easy for her to do that because her moves are that open ended. Hayate has alot of lag while he's striking. if you're in a string and they counter, then you just gotta try and get around that counter without taking it. With Helena, just stop and throw them.
The characters are all different. Their styles are different. Yes, every character has a move that knocks back. The difference? Ein will knock you back with one arm tied behind his back without really thinking about it. Helena has about two moves that knock back and they both hit mid. So getting them off is a different experience. She doesn't need them either.
quote:
The combos branch, I know that. However it's a simplistic guessing game. Once you've played the game for a long time, you know the different outcomes to combos. It will branch one way or the other. You know what to expect.
That shows inexperience with the engine. Somebody is always going to expect you to go through a combo a certain way depending on the way you do that combo. if you do the opposite they're not going to do it. If you know they always counter you at a specific point, then stop at the branch, its easy to do then, and throw them.
DOA is completely checks and balances and thoughts. The guy who thinks the quickest is the most likely to win. The idea that once you know the branch you just 'Counter Them' is rediculous because maybe its a guessing game. But you're still more likely to think one way than another.
quote:
Ok, I'll talk about Akira in VF4 for instance. He has absolutely no combo strings. He's a quick striker with special chain throws and counters. Lion has very limited combo strings, he is better suited for tricky dodges and quick strikes, so he can stagger and juggle the opponent. Vanessa combines two stances that are completely different: one is a defensive stance with countering and lighter combos, the other is quick and dirty strikes.
In DOA Leifang has very few combo's. She does usually solitary fast hard strikes that usually use her whole body. Ayane's combo's themselves usually hit high with a very limited selection of low and medium attacks. However she's very manueverable and is easy to jump or roll around the enemy. Helena has two main stances, one where its easy to counter and another where she can't block or counter but high hits go over her head and she has alot of great attacks.
In DOA everybody has the same fundamental abilities. However, they have differences that make them vary greatly the deeper into their character you get. Therefore, yes you can grab anybody and do alright. But if you're playing a character that you just know how to play from the game against somebody who's great with their character you're going to get smashed. I'm great at DOA, but I'm a poor Leifang player. her style is very different from the others and she relies on using alot of powerful counters. However, she isn't my style. hard for me to play. of course, in the hands of somebody who is talented she's going to smash you with her counters and throws.
Its just that VF deviates on characters on a starting level and DOA deviates on a professional level. That means its alot easier for newbies to play DOA obviously. But it also means they have more fun. Somebody mentioned that he couldn't get his friends into Virtua Fighter. Well thats because the game is frustrating. If you're new and the person is great you don't have a chance.
In DOA you can put on a good show and if you're fighting a professional you won't win but you'll feel good just because you stood up to that guy. I'm training some guys to play DOA and they get slaughtered against me. But they don't care because they have fun with it. Sometimes they last less than three seconds. But even then, they don't care too much.
The fighting genre is drying up and its hard to get new players because if somebody walks into an arcade and runs into a guy sitting on a street fighter cabinet they aren't going to want to play that guy! it won't be fun. So why try?
DOA is kind of like an answer to that.
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Counters are too simple a concept to take up 1/3 of the gameplay of DOA. It's just too simple. Grab a punch, do some damage. Memorize the combos, see where they branch, grab the punch.
once again, this shows little talent with DOA. If where your combo branches the person always counters you it means you have no skill. Another thing is if you know that they know you're going to branch them, Then throw their ass! they're going to try to counter you. Hit free hit throw. You just did 50% more damage with that throw. If I know you're going to try to counter my move with Hayate, I get to that move, hit free, and hit down forward down forward throw. That takes at least 35% of their life bar.
Thats what you get for trying to be a smartass and thinking you know me. On the other hand, if I'm not sure about it. I'll just use the branch they don't expect. People always expect you to go with the way you use the most. Don't go that way. They'll be surprised.
But when you think that you've got someone and you counter and you're stuck standing there like an idiot and they rape you with a throw. Then its time to re-evaluate your style. I've had games where I was losing, but the guy thought he knew me and because of his counters he was dead three throws later.
Thats the breaks. You can't just play one way and expect to win in DOA against a pro. You have to be varied.
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Delay will only do so much if you know it's coming. DOA is a fighting game primarily based on reaction time and instinct, not careful planning and mind games.
this shows very little skill in DOA. DOA is all about mind games. Doing what they don't expect you too. Thinking about what they're going to do and beat it out. Tricking them into thinking you're going to do something and then doing the opposite, tricking them into thinking they can smash your brain against a wall and using that lag to do a wall throw. DOA is a game about reaction time and instinct that if a mind game from the first move to the last.
If you're a pro every move takes thought. Because you don't want to get countered on any of them. I know my main characters entire movesets and use those entire movesets to avoid attacks.
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There are many more 'checks and balances' in VF than in DOA. I can say that with no doubt.
No. *laughs*
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I simply cannot believe that it's because people couldn't get beyond the "flash" that the game isn't played in tournaments. That's a stupid excuse.
But in the end... That is the reason. A stupid excuse? not at all.
Just ignorance. The entire world thought that the world was flat for a long time. for DOA, you play it and you get to a certain part where you know the other guy and you're getting countered and you're losing life and you're stuck like that.
Is that it? Just quit. Thats the game. Its just a button mashers game with too easy to do counters. Right?
Wrong.
Everybody gets stuck there because it takes forethought, intelligent and thinking outside the box to get past it. To get to a point to where every single move is a mind game. But thats what it turns into.
Its just that fighting games have had a certain way about them for their entire life. They're all street fighter. You punch and if they're blocking you throw!
But for the love of god don't give everybody a counter. Thats a special move!
but it isn't. and in DOA its not. Its something that everybody can do, some better than others.
If you can get around those. Think differently, think outside of the box, then you've got the game.
But nobody does that.
So then I have to sit on this message board hearing, "But its so simple! everybody fights the same! all the counters are the same! You can just button mash" and its the biggest farce in the world.
You're an intelligent individual. Its obvious from your posting style. However, You didn't get it. You got to the part where it would take real skill, real talent, real ability to move past. And quit there thinking it was the way the game was. Then Joined the legion of cliche's on the internet.
There's nothing wrong with that. But... you just didn't get past that block.
I was there too. me and my friends quit playing doa2 for awhile. But then we went back eventually and started toying with it and just blew past those barriers.
Rediculously. We went back and played because VF3 was such an awful unenjoyable game. I'm glad that VF4 is more like VF2, except that it is a step back technologically.
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They will never have one for DOA unless Itagaki really puts some effort into making his game play as well as it looks.
DOA 2 and 3 man. Its just about what you see.
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| KTallguy
128th Post
Regular Customer
| "Non-flaming Discussion v. 2.0" , posted Wed 9 Jul 12:10:
quote:
What exactly do you mean by "revolutionary" game? Have you heard of Pikmin?
I played Pikmin, and it's good, but not revolutionary. When I said that Mario 64 was revolutionary, I meant because it was one of the pioneers of the 3D action genre. I do like Pikmin, and it does have some really smart design elements, but when I say "revolutionary", I mean defining a genre.
Kitsune: Thanks for being understanding with your post. You may be right that I dismissed DOA3 before I got into it deep enough. It could be because I didn't have anyone good to play against, or because I only played it on my friends Xbox.
Your post was a good read, and I agree that DOA has a well done Rock Paper Sissors formula.
It could be that VF4 appeals to me more than DOA3 to you and vice versa. People won't get too deep into a game if they don't like it right? Opinion's of the game aside, I did play for a while, I graduated from 'mashing' to learning some of the basic moves. I did pretty much stop after I got bored with the system, and didn't explore it further. I probably should try again.
I just feel that the 3D environments are unacceptable in a tournament setting, because they create an artifical handicap. I know that you can dodge rocks and stuff from behind by moving out of the way, but it doesn't necessarily make stuff more exciting as it does make things unfair and unbalanced. Even with moving before the round starts, if you are positioned in such a way where a tree will get in your way, then it's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of an artifical handicap created by the design of the game. If I'm knocked out a window and fall down a building and lose 2/5 of my health because I'm facing a certain direction when the round starts, that's not good game design.
I think that we both have better knowledge of our respective games, at least better than of eachother. Because all of the things you mentioned, such as frame advantage counters, stunning counters, knockback counters, special sidesteps and evades, jumping somersaults, even wall jumps/throws, all exist in VF4.
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The guy who thinks the quickest is the most likely to win.
That's what I meant when I said the game is about reaction time and instinct. That is one reason why it's not played competitively. Maybe I shouldn't have said mind games, because in those combos you mentioned, it is a sort of mind game. However in my opinion it is a limited guessing game. Maybe you could call it a 'twitch-action' game. If your attacked, you can counter, if they don't attack you can throw. If you miss the counter, you're thrown. However in VF4, you can triple throw escape to escape a throw if you're good, and counter yourself, which can be stopped with auto parry moves or a dodge counter attack.. etc etc. There are more layers to VF4's strategy than DOA3's.
Virtua Fighter isn't just a attack beats throw beats parry/counter game. There's a lot more to it than that. It's not Rock/Paper/Scissors. It's more than that. That's why in Japan they have monthly tournaments, and people win money for playing. That's why you can go on the net and download tournament videos and study fighter's techniques, to get an idea for how you'll develop your own style.
There's got to be a reason beyond close mindedness that attributes to DOA's lack of tournaments, especially in Japan. I wouldn't attribute it to its non-existant showing in arcades either. If I needed real talent, real skill, real patience to move farther in DOA, what am I moving into? Where's the tournament scene? The frame data? The combo videos? It's a different game, but because it's different, easy to pick up, and inherently simple, it's also one that people don't take seriously. As far as I know, there are no websites on the internet that focus on the tactics of DOA3. I've looked. The only tournaments I've seen of DOA are at anime conventions and among friends.
Do you think that DOA would have developed a competitive scene if released in the arcades? If so, why didn't Itagaki simply stick an X-Box in an arcade cabinet? Why didn't they take that extra step? Sure the arcade scene is dying. But all those japanese gamers that play VF4 in the arcades are gonna buy the home version. Why didn't Team Ninja tap that resource? That's easy money for SEGA and Capcom.
It's a broken argument to say that most of the gaming world doesn't have enough skill to understand and appreciate DOA3, so that's why it's not played competitively. If you're really saying this, I don't buy it. The Japanese and Korean gamers regularly 'think outside the box', which is why they own the US at every concievable tournament except in games that they don't play, like MvC2 (they consider it a kids game). They fricking make the games that are played on a competitive level! We're in a smaller box then they are!
I didn't quit DOA3 because someone was cheesing me or beating me. I quit because it bored the hell out of me after a few weeks.
quote:
I'm glad that VF4 is more like VF2, except that it is a step back technologically.
Explain why it's a step back technologically. Because of the evade button omission? Please tell me how VF4 is less advanced than DOA3. I'm sure they could have put rocks and trees and other things in there if they wanted, but they wanted a tournament fighting game. Design elements that create an artifical handicap that is out of the players control is bad design. You want rolling hills and rocks and crap to trip over? Make a shooter, not a fighter! Do real martial arts tournaments have trees growing in the ring?
I'll bet my money that when Itagaki designed this game, he had no desire for it to be played on any real competitive level. He made it accessable, flashy, and fun. That's it. It's cool, it's fun. It's not meant to be played in tournaments.
Maybe you think I don't see the light. But that would be more believable if you had more followers. Show me the legions of DOA players that analyze the game, make combo videos and discuss tactics! Don't tell me that 99% of the gaming public is too jaded, too stupid or lacks the skill in order to get the most out of DOA. That's simply false.
[this message was edited by KTallguy on Wed 9 Jul 14:13] |
| Grave 413th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(5):You've made my day." , posted Wed 9 Jul 12:26
Man, you crank out long posts like nobody's business.
I see what you're trying to say, and though it may be true, I'm afraid you're not going to change his mind. It all just seems kinda pointless to me. And calling someone an internet cliche because they don't like something and have told you why doesn't help things any. Making it personal isn't going to show him your point, either.
Anyway, as for the Sega comment before, maybe our opinions on these games very (well, hell, I'm almost sure they will), but I don't think I've played a bad Sega game since they went multiplatform. PD Orta, Shinobi, Super Monkey Ball 1 and 2 (and even the GBA version), VF4, and so forth.
I agree that Gungrave wasn't fantastic, but it was fun, and it's very stylish. I like it a lot, as I'm sure you've already noticed, heh heh.
I think Rez is a very cool game, and Sega Soccer Slam is an unbelievably fun game. I dig Gunvalkyrie, too, but I'm already aware that I'm the only one who does. I probably missed a couple, but eh, you get the point. I don't think they've produced anything that changed the world, but I've had a ton of fun with their games since then.
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| Ktallguy
126th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(6):You've made my day." , posted Wed 9 Jul 12:40
You're right, and no one will change their mind. That's why I wanted to stop. But... urge to argue... too... strong...
As long as it doesn't lower itself into pointing out spelling errors and differences in body composition, I'd say I could argue in this thread forever. It's fun! I enjoy intelligent debate!
And I like to write. I'm working on my own game script. It's coming together slowly ... =/
quote:
Anyway, as for the Sega comment before, maybe our opinions on these games very (well, hell, I'm almost sure they will), but I don't think I've played a bad Sega game since they went multiplatform. PD Orta, Shinobi, Super Monkey Ball 1 and 2 (and even the GBA version), VF4, and so forth.
Agreed!
Sega has some of the best minds in the business. Why would Microsoft bribe one of them on their side if they didn't?
Have you seen any info on the new Vectorman? The early screenshots of some of the fighting look pretty interesting, but I'm wondering to see how it controls.
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| Kitsune413
221th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(2):..." , posted Wed 9 Jul 16:31
quote:
You may be right that I dismissed DOA3 before I got into it deep enough. It could be because I didn't have anyone good to play against, or because I only played it on my friends Xbox.
DOA's single player experience isn't deep. You don't have Kumite mode or anything. Unlike Virtua Fighter (this isn't a knock)DOA has a story and thats really what story mode is there for. Sure the extra modes like time attack and survival make it cool to play by yourself for awhile but thats going to get old.
DOA's multiplayer is where its at and I couldn't imagine having gotten good at the game without it.
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Your post was a good read, and I agree that DOA has a well done Rock Paper Sissors formula.
Well, lets avoid that cliche. Obviously there are three main things you can do, Attack, Counter, Throw. But you can also sidestep or block and a counter doesn't automatically beat an attack and an attack doesn't automatically beat some throws.
In the end, all fighting games are rock paper scissors games. VF is attack throw block right? Sure there's sidestepping as such. but. eh.
We can ignore elements if we need to. Its just not a real cool way to talk about something.
quote:
I did pretty much stop after I got bored with the system, and didn't explore it further. I probably should try again.
Like I said, DOA doesn't provide an incredibly 'deep' single player experience. It can't. Its more of a mind game game than others. Computers can be tricked.
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I just feel that the 3D environments are unacceptable in a tournament setting, because they create an artifical handicap. I know that you can dodge rocks and stuff from behind by moving out of the way, but it doesn't necessarily make stuff more exciting as it does make things unfair and unbalanced.
Not really. Just use the rock against them. Yeah, they can knock you back into it, but if they want to use a high lag move that hits back hard let them. Then use a wall throw. It'll hurt them more and then they'll be the one against the wall.
Anyways, the starting points aren't exactly random. The Lost world for instance. There are two ways to start, Either the two characters have one character with his back to a wall and the other has his back to a cliff, or they both have their backs to a cliff.
Its not really an outstanding argument.
quote:
frame advantage counters, stunning counters, knockback counters, special sidesteps and evades, jumping somersaults, even wall jumps/throws, all exist in VF4.
The emphasis is different. VF has more emphasis on side stepping. not all characters can counter. DOA has more emphasis on counters. obviously.
It all exists. But I thought we weren't going to argue depth. But then again, I guess we also have been since the beginning.
I'm not going to argue which one has more depth than the other. I'm argueing against somebody saying DOA is a poor fighter with no depth. etc. etc.
In the end, I'm sure VF edges it out a small margin in the depth department, but DOA is more fun. Though... I think DOA is deeper than Tekken. *snickers*
quote:
Virtua Fighter isn't just a attack beats throw beats parry/counter game. There's a lot more to it than that. It's not Rock/Paper/Scissors. It's more than that.
Neither is DOA. Paper beats scissors, so... where does the argument stand? besides, like I said. If you want to cut it down all fighting games are rock paper scissors.
quote:
As far as I know, there are no websites on the internet that focus on the tactics of DOA3. I've looked.
Its a shame isn't it?
quote:
It's a broken argument to say that most of the gaming world doesn't have enough skill to understand and appreciate DOA3, so that's why it's not played competitively
I never said skill. I said they just don't get it. There's a reason for that. But I'll get to it later since you've kinda repeated this line a few times.
quote:
Explain why it's a step back technologically. Because of the evade button omission? Please tell me how VF4 is less advanced than DOA3.
VF 3 has interactive backgrounds. VF4 has poorly implemented walls and square mats. You can give whatever gameplay argument that you want but that doesn't make them technologically innovative.
Rival Schools (Project Justice!) is a 2d fighter. sure its a 3d game. but it doesn't make use of the 3d or anything. Its still a 2d fighter. its just got 3d graphics.
Virtua Fighter slightly edges it out considering there are four edges and some may be further away than others.
However, its not a game that has alot of emphasis on movement or knock back. I mean, you've played DOA, so I'm sure you noticed you tend to 'travel' alot playing it. Its 3d, you make use of the 3d. You get around.
The sidesteps make VF4 use 3d more than the previous. But not as much as the 3rd. which I didn't like much anyways.
quote:
Don't tell me that 99% of the gaming public is too jaded, too stupid or lacks the skill in order to get the most out of DOA. That's simply false.
Thats exactly what I'm telling you man. You get so far in single player and quit because the single player is kinda, eh. But are you a great DOA player? No. Maybe you're great at fighting games but when it comes to DOA you're below average. Just by the whole, "You can mash and counter everything!" argument.
Fighting Games have a tried and true method that came out when Street Fighter came out and that hasn't strayed since then.
and Virtua Fighter changed that with 3d, making no emphasis on specials but making throws more important. But at the same time it still follows a very normal method.
DOA has an emphasis on something that very few fighters have. The environment and counters. Those are probably its two largest claims to fame. Nobody really does environment as good as them.
and the environment is strategy. the environment is depth. avoiding walls, knowing where to stand and how to fight. Knowing that people slip on ice. etc. etc. Thats all deeper gameplay.
But when you talk about depth most people think totally about player vs player depth. DOA isn't as good because these characters don't do this!
Its hard to think that maybe the stage adds depth. Just like its hard to think that if you got good enough you could... Maybe not button mash into those counters!
But since its different it gets blown off early. The majority of DOA playing groups I've encountered are either very, very intelligent people who just kinda got a handle on it.
Or people who don't kick it in internet message boards and think about competition. Because then they never run into the "DOA IS THE MASHER COUNTER IS THE OWN IT IS THE FAKE ITS SO SIMPLE TO DO MOVES" thing.
and considering that they aren't on message boards and seeing that so they keep playing, they aren't exactly greatly improving either because they don't benefit from strategies.
I think that DOA's competition is really not existant because of a sad amount of preconcieved notions of what a fighting game should be. Bias against it and bias against the graphics that has lead most people who go to learn anything about DOA to shun it because they'll get highjacked by the guys talking about depth.
It sounds crazy. But seriously. Its like a great idea that never caught on or was attacked because it was different.
Its not insane. After all, you're an intelligent individual. However, have you eveer heard how many people complain about 'The counters in DOA beat all!'
Seriously. Learn the moves to the game. There are three height levels for a reason. Learn all the moves and the whole, "The movesets are predictable!" won't be a problem because you'll know how to break out of it.
Thats what it was made to do.
Seriously. Don't take this as an insult. But you do not know how to play the game. But here you are talking about how it has no depth. You're not qualified. But you're attacking it none the less.
Talking about how its all about the graphics and girls breasts and mashing and countering.
If somebody who wants to learn about it runs into that, never learn how to get past it, just learn the complaints that its not like every other fighter, how are they going to get better?
If they don't go to message boards, don't think about competition. But play the game, Then they aren't learning different strategies. How far are they going to get? if they go to a tournament are they going to blow away the competition?
Its sad circumstances that leads up to.
Maybe I can't change anybody's mind. Or maybe you'll play DOA again and try to get past the counters and the "its got counters and everybody does and its not normal" mindset.
Maybe you'll get competitive so someday we can have tournaments.
and I won't always have to attack, "Its all about the b00bs" threads with overly long talks about depth like this one.
If I can say this much about DOA. Its got to have more than you give it credit for, right?
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| KTallguy
129th Post
Regular Customer
| "Thanks for watching." , posted Wed 9 Jul 16:58
quote:
I'm not going to argue which one has more depth than the other. I'm argueing against somebody saying DOA is a poor fighter with no depth. etc. etc.
I respect your arguement. Maybe I misinterepreted what you were saying a few posts back.
Actually, when you put it that way, the environments are a part of the gameplay. They could be considered an element like dodging. Although I don't especially like the falling and recieving massive damage, it is part of the game. And I suppose that if you compared VF4 to perhaps, a real martial arts tournament, you could compare DOA to a more unprofessional 'wild' setting, where the player has to deal with both environmental hazards and the opponent. I can see that. It works.
You're right when you say I'm not very qualified to talk about the game system of DOA3. I don't play the game regularly. I'm sure I'm not as good as you.
For all you say about the game, it IS sad that there isn't a tournament life. Maybe people can't get past the glitz. I feel like there would/should be tournaments in Japan if they felt the game was 'up to par'. But that's my opinion.
If you could gather a lot of DOA people together and show off some high level play, I'd be impressed and may get into the game more. I believe many people would. As of now, Virtua Fighter 4 has a vibrant community with some annoying people who shout 'n00b' at people, but also some very intelligent people. DOA3 should have that too.
Honestly, there's a stereotype for DOA players too. People who stare at breasts and flash. However you aren't like that, and I can tell that you really love your fighting game.
I went a little far when I said you could mash and counter EVERYTHING. I apologize for that. However I love my VF4 =) I guess in the end, it's down to preference, and what you like is what you like.
Honestly, I want to see some sites up there with DOA3 tactics. I found IGN's strat. guide, but that's it. DOA fans should start something like that. Maybe with DOA/2 online, people will become more competitive, and the game will take off in a better direction.
People should release vidoes, post strategies. For all the people who bought the game, it seems like only some people play it like a fighting game. Maybe if videos are out, people would be like... 'how do you do THAT' and practice, and get good. Something could happen =)
About the competition, I'm not THAT good at VF4. I just got to Champion rank in Kumite, but I don't have any friends who play VF4 seriously in San Diego. VF4 has stellar AI, which maybe explains why I still play it regularly. I'm actually thinking about actively looking for some San Diego VF4 players, as we have EVO in a nearby arcade. But I'd be glad to see a DOA tournament!
Anyway, I've said my peace so I'll leave it at that. Thanks for watching everyone =)
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| Kitsune413
223th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(1):Thanks for watching." , posted Wed 9 Jul 18:00:
I'd leave it like that. But, I need to be a bit more wordy and pretentious.
quote:
And I suppose that if you compared VF4 to perhaps, a real martial arts tournament, you could compare DOA to a more unprofessional 'wild' setting.
VF is like your traditional fighting tournament. You know, its a mat with the characters going mono on mono. There isn't really enviromental significence beyond the walls that are occasionally in place, and the movement isn't really made for it.
So I think the huge technical different Itagaki talks about usually deals with the fact that DOA makes an attempt to take human beings and real world locations and make a fighting game based around that.
You know, rocks are around, if you hit one, it hurts. Waters slick, if you get hit while standing in the water you lose your footing.
The emphasis is on the characters and the enviroment. so in the end VF will edge it out in the, the characters can do this and this and this. But... DOA isn't trying to be that. or do that. hehe.
Its fighting + enviroment. Thats.. its thing.
quote:
For all you say about the game, it IS sad that there isn't a tournament life. Maybe people can't get past the glitz.
Limited exposure. Mortal Kombat has a die hard cult following Its Mortal Kombat. But it was in the arcades so people follow it. Maybe you enjoyed the first few games, but I'm sure by now you've realized its been edged out by almost everything.
But some people even voted it fighting game of the year or whatever.
DOA1 never came out in the arcades in america. DOA2 came out in a very very limited manner in America. Then the dreamcast version came out. But right at the tail end of Soul Calibur.
It came out again on the ps2, but it was standing up to Tekken Tag and was a dreamcast game.
DOA3 came out on the Xbox.
So in all of that there isn't a huge chance for it to have ever gotten its hardcore following. The people who play it hardcore are small in number. Which is obvious I think.
But its also the only fighting game that never did well in arcades that became huge on consoles alone.
quote:
I feel like there would/should be tournaments in Japan if they felt the game was 'up to par'. But that's my opinion.
Well, Japan isn't that hardcore. I mean, they don't have a ton of Tekken players. Tekkens an american thing. They just love VF. Though there are more Tekken players in Japan. I mean, how many Japanese people own an Xbox?
Then again, for a bunch of people as laid back as the japanese who complain about those annoyingly difficult american games, they have guys who make a living off of playing VF. so.. eh.
quote:
As of now, Virtua Fighter 4 has a vibrant community with some annoying people who shout 'n00b' at people, but also some very intelligent people. DOA3 should have that too.
DOA has the same problem. There are a small amount of very intelligent hardcore players. Then an absolutely huge amount of casual pick up and play gamers that play it because its pretty and fun.
That kind of ability to let alot of people play casually is maybe something more fighting games need. But at the same time, its lack of a hardcore following isn't so great.
quote:
However I love my VF4 =) I guess in the end, it's down to preference, and what you like is what you like.
Of course.
quote:
DOA fans should start something like that.
http://www.dfwcreative.com/dfwgames/doa3/
as good as it gets. and not exactly good. But its a start.
quote:
For all the people who bought the game, it seems like only some people play it like a fighting game.
Well because its controls aren't difficult, it can be played very casually, and it is! But. I was a badass Kof player when I got into DOA, and I played Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter 2 and was no slacker at all. When the Saturn came out VF2 was all I did.
DOA was different. its odd to think that if I hadn't disliked VF3 so much I probably would have been stuck at the counter barrier.
Obviously the people you're talking about annoy the hardcore gamers a bit. Its kind of annoying to be serious about a game where more than half of the other players are talking about who has the best chest. etc. etc.
So basically, for every player who wants to further DOA's gameplay, there are three or four (probably more than that) who want to make the stigma worse.
quote:
Maybe if videos are out, people would be like... 'how do you do THAT' and practice, and get good. Something could happen =)
after a mid counter, back up punch, punch punch down back kick punch, forward forward punch down back kick. On a medium character. If you're fighting somebody who's a different weight you need to do it differently.
or, after hitting them against a wall, back up punch, punch punch down back kick punch, punch punch forward punch up back kick. same deal. medium characters.
Thats what I do for juggles in those situations with Hayate. May not be as hard as alot of commands in other fighters, but getting it off quickly after the situation isn't easy.
quote:
VF4 has stellar AI, which maybe explains why I still play it regularly.
DOA could learn from VF4's survival mode and practicee mode. They did a really good job with those and it should be mimicked.
DOA's single player game is cool for cutscenes and thats about it.
Like I said, should have just walked away. Not a bad end to the .. err... debate.. or.. whatever...
*sounds incredibly intelligent*
But I don't know. just a few last points that came to mind.
[this message was edited by Kitsune413 on Wed 9 Jul 18:07] |
| ZamIAm 992th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Environment" , posted Wed 9 Jul 20:38
quote:
Nobody really does environment as good as them.
One made an attempt, Deadly Arts for N64. The game is hated by most reviewers and though I own and enjoy it, I admit it has, erm... issues. At the same time, they did a nice job for the time as far as environments go. Get thrown headfirst into the van and it hurts, while a puddle of water does less than default. Alot of random stuff to break for no reason (traffic cones, bamboo) and things off in the background. Your arena also determines ringouts. Some have none, some are on a platform and just have a weak wall to bust, others have just a minor inconspicuous spot (the hole in the ground in the mine level). Not only are there a few Fighting Vipers-esque wall moves, there also moves to slam someone across middle height objects.
You might be a nerd if:
You noticed that two of Lilo's books have the spine on the wrong side. And you were watching the Spanish version when this occurred...
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"Re(10):New Ninja Gaiden" 
