Original message ([an error occurred while processing this directive] Views )[an error occurred while processing this directive]
| Time Mage 1501th Post
 
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
    
    
    
    
|  "The worst thing about modern RPGs."
, posted Wed 18 Jun 14:56
First of all, beware, it's a long post.
RPGs are nowadays more complex storyline wise, they have better audio and graphics (obvious), have more and better sidequests, and are usually quite long, but...
The action gets slower than the pre-PSX era.
I mean, starting with the fights, everything is so well animated that takes an eternity to perform. At first is great, but this kind of things make games more boring. Examples:
- The horrible Summons from FF8, which great animation soon got boring, making battles annoying, if you had to summon more than once (and even then).
- FF9 suposedly fixed that problem, but at cost of some damage... WTF? Also, overall animation is so long that it slows down all battles: You select "attack" with Zidane -> He takes the "ready" stance, then, swings his weapon as the camera zooms at him, then he dashes to the opponent and swings the weapon once again and hits him/her/it. About 3 or 4 seconds of great (but unnecesary) animation. Since that's one of the faster actions, battles get too slow, without many actions in them.
- Skies of Arcadia according to the little I played, also has slow battles, but at least you can skip some animations.
Also, many other action (not battles) slow down games, like the musics on Zelda: Wind Waker:
Navigating is annoying some time just because changing the wind direction means loosing like 10-15 seconds in the "play-the-tune-hear-it-again-choose-direction-look-the-pretty-animation-afterwards" proccess. Also, if you need to change to the next day, you also have to loose quite some time. Also, many actions/animations/texts can't be skipped, even if you have seen them a trillion times.
So, overall, games tend to be slower due to the eye candy... I wouldn't mind shorter animations for all those things and more, if the games become more direct. I'm remembering now FF6 or Zelda: AlttP... That was direct fun, and fast combats.
So... What's you opinion??
[an error occurred while processing this directive]
|
|
Replies:
|
| Time Mage 1502th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(2):The worst thing about modern RPGs." , posted Thu 19 Jun 01:26
quote:
I just want
- a good
- complicated
- rpg
Something that will make my head explode because there are so many options, strategies and paths to take. In all my life, I have only found few RPGS that have this.
FFT Advance is good, complicated, and an rpg (to an extent), BUT is very, very easy.
However, the big quantity of options, like what abilities should you learn next, and having to choose between better weapons or weaker ones with better abilities, what quests should you do, having to defend your territories, etc... Makes it very fun.
But easy.
|
| CrazyMike 540th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(3):The worst thing about modern RPGs." , posted Thu 19 Jun 01:37
quote:
FFT Advance is good, complicated, and an rpg (to an extent), BUT is very, very easy.
However, the big quantity of options, like what abilities should you learn next, and having to choose between better weapons or weaker ones with better abilities, what quests should you do, having to defend your territories, etc... Makes it very fun.
But easy.
Using a gameshark to put the villains in your party is even more fun!
|
| Mog
175th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(1):The worst thing about modern RPGs." , posted Thu 19 Jun 12:18
quote:
So, overall, games tend to be slower due to the eye candy... I wouldn't mind shorter animations for all those things and more, if the games become more direct.
Heh, I've been complaining about this since FFVII came out back in 1997 :P
quote:
Something that will make my head explode because there are so many options, strategies and paths to take. In all my life, I have only found few RPGS that have this.
Have you played Dark Cloud 2 or Morrowind yet? PC RPG's tend to caiter more to the twinker/power-gaming crowd, so you might try looking there.
As or right now, I'm about 65% of the way through Star Ocean 3, and have really enjoyed it thus far (best PS2 RPG IHMO). It's a shame that the US release has been pushed back until next year though....
GameStop customer quote of the moment: "A friend of mine is a professional assassin so I'm sure I would be good at Hitman 2."
|
| Sensenic 680th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(1):The worst thing about modern RPGs." , posted Thu 19 Jun 14:21
My opinion, if anyone cares, about all this is:
Well, as for all the waiting stuff, I think you're right in all you say, but in my case, I'm a patient enough person, and don't care that much. Although I've never played FF8 enough to summon Eden (which seems it's the longest one) perhaps then I'd change my mind. As for the "ready->go->attack->return->return to normal position" stuff, I rather like it, I'm a realism whore. ^_^U
That doesn't mean I don't like FFVI (I'd NEVER say that) or any "old" RPG for that reason, of course.
As for the difficulty thing.... Tactics beat me, no matter how much I try, any game involving strategy is "stronger" than me (as many other kind of games -sigh-), and long, open & complicated RPGs... I like all that freedom a lot but, call me lazy, I've never tried to go serious with any of this kind.
And in the poll I voted "No, I'm not interested in your opinions", of course  . Naah.
Rincewind: Hello! Anyone out there?!
Why should you drink & drive when you can smoke & fly?
-A woman to a boy I crossed with in the street-
|
| Tashoku Kisune 2072th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
   
| "Re(1):The worst thing about modern RPGs." , posted Thu 19 Jun 14:31
quote:
First of all, beware, it's a long post.
RPGs are nowadays more complex storyline wise, they have better audio and graphics (obvious), have more and better sidequests, and are usually quite long, but...
The action gets slower than the pre-PSX era.
I mean, starting with the fights, everything is so well animated that takes an eternity to perform. At first is great, but this kind of things make games more boring. Examples:
- The horrible Summons from FF8, which great animation soon got boring, making battles annoying, if you had to summon more than once (and even then).
- FF9 suposedly fixed that problem, but at cost of some damage... WTF? Also, overall animation is so long that it slows down all battles: You select "attack" with Zidane -> He takes the "ready" stance, then, swings his weapon as the camera zooms at him, then he dashes to the opponent and swings the weapon once again and hits him/her/it. About 3 or 4 seconds of great (but unnecesary) animation. Since that's one of the faster actions, battles get too slow, without many actions in them.
- Skies of Arcadia according to the little I played, also has slow battles, but at least you can skip some animations.
Also, many other action (not battles) slow down games, like the musics on Zelda: Wind Waker:
Navigating is annoying some time just because changing the wind direction means loosing like 10-15 seconds in the "play-the-tune-hear-it-again-choose-direction-look-the-pretty-animation-afterwards" proccess. Also, if you need to change to the next day, you also have to loose quite some time. Also, many actions/animations/texts can't be skipped, even if you have seen them a trillion times.
So, overall, games tend to be slower due to the eye candy... I wouldn't mind shorter animations for all those things and more, if the games become more direct. I'm remembering now FF6 or Zelda: AlttP... That was direct fun, and fast combats.
So... What's you opinion??
Very good point. Thankfully I'm patient and all those FFT battles that I utterly adored helped to condition me. I'm just lucky that I'm an INSANELY patient person so I don't truly mind the battles taking so long. ^_^ But you've got a good point too.
|
| Time Mage 1503th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(2):The worst thing about modern RPGs." , posted Thu 19 Jun 14:51
quote:
Very good point. Thankfully I'm patient and all those FFT battles that I utterly adored helped to condition me. I'm just lucky that I'm an INSANELY patient person so I don't truly mind the battles taking so long. ^_^ But you've got a good point too.
Well, in fact, FFT (and all strategy RPGs, for that matter) is the opposite case: The battles are long, but there are many actions in them, which take very little time to execute.
For the same battle length, you have way more actions executed in FFT than in FF9, so you're most of the time actively participating in the battle, and that's taking in account the time that thinking your next action takes.
The longest animation in FFT is probably the Zodiac summon, and it's not long at all compared to, say, the shortest FF9 summon in its short form. That's the difference.
|
| Tashoku Kisune 2075th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):The worst thing about modern RPGs." , posted Thu 19 Jun 15:05
quote:
Very good point. Thankfully I'm patient and all those FFT battles that I utterly adored helped to condition me. I'm just lucky that I'm an INSANELY patient person so I don't truly mind the battles taking so long. ^_^ But you've got a good point too.
Well, in fact, FFT (and all strategy RPGs, for that matter) is the opposite case: The battles are long, but there are many actions in them, which take very little time to execute.
For the same battle length, you have way more actions executed in FFT than in FF9, so you're most of the time actively participating in the battle, and that's taking in account the time that thinking your next action takes.
The longest animation in FFT is probably the Zodiac summon, and it's not long at all compared to, say, the shortest FF9 summon in its short form. That's the difference.
True.. but the biggest complaint I've ever heard about FFT from people I know is that the battles take too long. It's a different format and almost hard to compare as it's just a different form. But the thing is that if you don't have patience at all.. you're not likely to make it through the game. It takes about the same kind of patience as waiting for a summon.. at least to me. *shrugs* But I've been known to sit in the same place for hours and do nothing. My mind is usually busy enough to fill in the gaps of time between turns and executions. ^_^;
|
| Time Mage 1504th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(4):The worst thing about modern RPGs." , posted Thu 19 Jun 15:20
quote:
True.. but the biggest complaint I've ever heard about FFT from people I know is that the battles take too long. It's a different format and almost hard to compare as it's just a different form. But the thing is that if you don't have patience at all.. you're not likely to make it through the game. It takes about the same kind of patience as waiting for a summon.. at least to me. *shrugs* But I've been known to sit in the same place for hours and do nothing. My mind is usually busy enough to fill in the gaps of time between turns and executions. ^_^;
Well, for me the difference is quite clear:
In FFT I have to be using the pad through all the battle, there's little time between my last input and the next. However, in FF9/8, you can hit "X" 4 times, and if you have summoned something, go get a drink, chat a little with your parents, return, and still having to wait a little (BTW, this example is a real situation of FF9). That's not my idea of fun.
|
| Tashoku Kisune 2081th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):The worst thing about modern RPGs." , posted Thu 19 Jun 15:24
quote:
True.. but the biggest complaint I've ever heard about FFT from people I know is that the battles take too long. It's a different format and almost hard to compare as it's just a different form. But the thing is that if you don't have patience at all.. you're not likely to make it through the game. It takes about the same kind of patience as waiting for a summon.. at least to me. *shrugs* But I've been known to sit in the same place for hours and do nothing. My mind is usually busy enough to fill in the gaps of time between turns and executions. ^_^;
Well, for me the difference is quite clear:
In FFT I have to be using the pad through all the battle, there's little time between my last input and the next. However, in FF9/8, you can hit "X" 4 times, and if you have summoned something, go get a drink, chat a little with your parents, return, and still having to wait a little (BTW, this example is a real situation of FF9). That's not my idea of fun.
I understand.... time just has never been much of an issue for me. o_O Five minutes or five days .. I can wait. LOL. Though let's hope that summons will never get to the point of five days. o_O
|
| Juke Joint Jezebel 2000th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
|  "keke with poll!"
, posted Fri 20 Jun 03:11:
quote:
I was at the last boss and I had been playing about 5-6 hours without a permenant save, I was scared that I was going to die and have to go all the way back to the beginning ;)
you lucky bastard. a few days ago, i went through 6 hours of non-stop battle in Hoshigami to have my balls handed to me by some really pissed off knights. which reminds me .. i was gonna start a topic on this but since there's already an rpg topic in discussion, i'll latch onto Time Mage's, if he doesn't mind
what's the longest amount of time you've wasted in an rpg because you forgot to save/didn't have a chance to save?
before that Hoshigami incident, i think the last longest time i've wasted was about 3 hours. i was playing an rpg i've played through several times already (i forgot which one. probably one of the Final Fantasies), so i was pretty confident i wouldn't die. and yep, i didn't die, but it was raining so hard outside that the power went out. after that incident, i save almost constantly in rpgs, and use up about 3 or 4 save slots per game for backups
anyways, back on the topic. you make an excellent point, Time Mage! i've heard a lot of complaints that the "newer rpgs" (referring to anything past the SNES/Genesis days) were all total crap. although i don't agree wholeheartedly with that opinion, i do agree that something changed when rpgs made that leap to the newer systems. i think you put your finger on one of those changes, Time Mage. there's still something else. i'm not too sure what it is, but there's another change
i didn't notice the long summons much in Final Fantasy VIII. i remember i didn't use the summons much in that game because they did way too much damage. but in Final Fantasy IX, they were pretty painful to watch. i remember i'd even leave the room to get food or drink, or flip through the channels and check what was on tv at the moment
i'm surprised no one stood up to defend Skies of Arcadia. you can't really complain about a game until you've played it through. if any of you can't get your hands on the Dreamcast version, i urge you to find Legends for GameCube! for the longest time (ever since i was in elementary school), Final Fantasy IV was my favorite rpg. a few months ago, that game took its place. there's just too much to be said about Skies of Arcadia. if you want any specifics later, just ask. i'll try to fill you in
anyways, the battles in SoA didn't seem too long to me. if you set them to attack, they didn't waste too much time doing that. if you set them to cast a spell (one of the few animations you couldn't skip), the length it took for the spell to take place was just a few seconds (maybe 10 or so). if you set them to use an s-move, it shouldn't be a problem since you could skip that animation. and, of course, the animation for items are short. you couldn't skip the enemies' s-moves and spells in Skies, but i don't remember any of their attacks being particularly long
i'm guessing the only animation in a normal battle that you couldn't skip (and was extremely long) was the "super teamup attack thing" (yeah, i forgot its real name). the attack isn't one of those things you'll use often, so i don't know why anyone would complain about it. first, you get everyone to charge until your meter's full (that'll take a while), then the animation itself takes a few minutes as everyone does their special thing. the damage is ok, but not worth it. you're probably better off just sticking with other attacks. i think the attack was just an option added for extra eye candy
in Skies of Arcadia, there's also ship battles. those may also be the "slow battles" that people have talked about. but those mainly have to do with the story (you can fly away from the non-story hostile ships), and i don't see any way to speed those kinds of battles up without making them look silly (come on, it's two ships fighting)
i guess that's all i've gotta say without going too deep into rpg elements. ack, it wouldn't have mattered. i've already said too much
EDIT:
grammar, grammar, grammar
"Strike with the Sword / Stricken with the Scabbard"
[this message was edited by Juke Joint Jezebel on Fri 20 Jun 03:33] |
| Time Mage 1508th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(1):keke with poll!" , posted Fri 20 Jun 09:04
quote:
i'm surprised no one stood up to defend Skies of Arcadia. you can't really complain about a game until you've played it through. if any of you can't get your hands on the Dreamcast version, i urge you to find Legends for GameCube! for the longest time (ever since i was in elementary school), Final Fantasy IV was my favorite rpg. a few months ago, that game took its place. there's just too much to be said about Skies of Arcadia. if you want any specifics later, just ask. i'll try to fill you in
I have SoA Legends, and although I'm at the beggining (I've just arrived to the pirates island), I've changed my opinion, which was based on the first battle only.
I'll begin to play it seriously when I finish the exams in July, but until then, I have good feelings of the game... That Alfonso is quite a villian! It's also strange how all the villians have spanish names.
And regarding to:
what's the longest amount of time you've wasted in an rpg because you forgot to save/didn't have a chance to save?
My case is quite different, but may serve: Ihad to start again playing LoZ: A Link to the Past just after I reached the 8th dungeon, just because the friend who lend me the game erased my file accidentally. However, it wasn't a great deal, because it's a great game.
Agh, I had a longer reply but my sister closed the window in a moment of distraction...
|
| Mog
177th Post
Regular Customer
| "Star Ocean 3 ! Xenosaga reply soon....." , posted Fri 20 Jun 10:28
quote:
Anything you can tell us about SO3 in particular? There's just not much translated info on the title, it seems.
That depends on what you want to know, and just how much you want to know. Yeah it's a shame, but then most non-FF RPG's are l
quote:
What kind of crazy systems do we have this time? Is the game as flexible as SO2? How's the combat? :D?
errrrr.... This is actually my first Tri-Ace RPG (though I watched friend of mine play through Valkiriye Profile), and everything I know about SO2 comes from friends of mine who had played through it. This being so, I'm not sure how much help I'll be, but I'll give it a shot.
The combat, to me, feels very much like a real-time version of the one used by Grandia (though in this case you're limited to 3 characters at a time). In combat, actions are devided up between Weak Attacks, Strong Attacks, Combat Skills, and Heraldry. There is a heavy empahsis on combos here (a "hit" counter is present on screen), and enemies can be hit both standing and in the air (though not when laying down). Right now, this is probably my favorite combat system in any RPG (before this it was Grandia II).
While there aren't as many characters in SO3 (6 normal + secret characters), getting certian characters won't prevent you from getting others, so at the very least you won't have to play through the game multiple times just try out each of them.
Story wise, I haven't caught many refferences to SO2, but concidering just how little I know, this isn't much of a surprise.
The difficulty is relatively high for a game that allows you to gain levels freely. Most of this is due in part to many of the monsters giving very little exp (The tougher ones especially, though there are a few weeker ones that give tons of exp.... go figure). One suggestion, take full advatange of the "Heat Up" gauge, as doing so will make leveling much easier.
Crap, I've got to run.... let me know if there's anything else you want to know (or anything you don't).
GameStop customer quote of the moment: "A friend of mine is a professional assassin so I'm sure I would be good at Hitman 2."
|
| Mog
179th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):Star Ocean 3 ! Xenosaga reply soon....." , posted Sun 22 Jun 14:19
quote:
How is character customization? Are there still lots of crazy item-making and cooking skills?
Based on what I've heard from my friends who have played SO2 (again, I have yet to play it, or even see it in action) it sounds like SO2 has more in options in regards to character custimization. In Star Ocean 3, each character has three skill sets, Battle (which is subdivided into Attack and Support), Status, and Tactical which can be broken down in the following way.
1)Battle Skills
A)Attack: Skills used to cause damage to the enemy. Characters have access to both generic attack skills (usable by every one), and unique attack skills (usable only by one character). A character has access to up to 4 Attack Skills at one time, each of which can be asigned to either the weak, or strong attack buttons.
B) Support Skills: Skills used to help the PC. I believe that all the support skills are generic, but I could be wrong. Examples: chance of increased HP, quick Casting, character can't be knocked down (think Mech Zangief), etc...
Note: Heraldry (magic) is concidered to be a support skill.
2) Status Skills: Increases basic character attributes. There are 4 options here: HP, MP, Attack raiting, and Evasion raiting.
3) Tactical Skills: I would call these "bonus" or "acessory" skills since the only thing many of them have in common with one another is that they fall under the same label. Examples: Counter Aura(s), increased Exp, Taunts, etc...
Each skill has it's own sort of Exp, and starts at level 1 and maxes out at level 10 through use.
*Whew* To sum it up, it sounds like this part of the game has been streamlined in regards to SO2. Whether that is a good, or bad thing is something I couldn't tell you though.
Item creation is still in (which cooking is a part of), but I haven't messed around with that too much just yet. I would give it a shot now, but I'm about 800 miles away from my PS2 (home), and won't be going back for 6 weeks. Hope this helps.
GameStop customer quote of the moment: "A friend of mine is a professional assassin so I'm sure I would be good at Hitman 2."
|
|
|
MESSATSU! 
